TOP #1: Same-Sex Attraction Meets The Gospel: How To Respond, Love & Care For The LGBTQ+ Community ft. Laurie Kreig

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Welcome to head to Heart
podcast.

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I'm your host Jenny Markham.
This Bi weekly podcast is

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designed to be a safe space to
admit where we truly believe in

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our hearts.
There's a huge difference

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between having biblical
knowledge floating around in our

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heads and actually believing
that it's true.

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Until God's truth makes its way
into our hearts.

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Nothing changes will be doing a
mix of solo episodes and

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interviews with friends.
Those who have experienced the

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freedom that comes, when head
knowledge becomes heart.

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Knowledge will talk about
overcoming lies in our

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relationships, mental health
struggles and the way we see

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ourselves, the truth will set
you free so that you can walk

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every day in the freedom.
God desires for you.

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It's time to let go of those
pressures insecurities and

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burdens.
That's not yours to carry.

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Thanks for joining us.
Welcome back to head to Heart

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podcast.
I'm your host Jenny Markham.

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If you're listening to this
episode, thank you so much for

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tuning in today.
I have a guest here with us, and

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I'm going to let her introduce
herself, but I am so thrilled to

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be sharing this episode with all
of you listeners.

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So we have Lori Krieg with us
today, Lori.

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Why don't you go ahead and
introduce yourself?

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Tell us a little bit about what
you do, who you are.

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And maybe a fun fact.
Aw, thanks.

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So much Jenny.
So nice to meet you and your

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audience.
So glad you guys are here.

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Yeah.
I want a Ministry called

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impossible Ministries and I'm a
podcaster also, although we're

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taking a break this year and I'm
a speaker, and I'm a writer and

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I'm currently getting my masters
at Wheaton and praying about a

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doctorate.
I don't know.

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That's jury's out on that one,
but the mission of our ministry

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and our podcast and pretty much
everything I say.

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To is to equip the church with a
gospel centered approach to

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marriage and sexuality.
We wrote that mission years ago

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and I feel like I just keep
learning more and more about

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each word of it, and it just
grows in deepens in my own heart

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and life.
So, yeah, I've been doing that

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since 2015 and married for 13
years.

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I have three little kids who Who
are seven, six and three and

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huge hundred-pound saber.
Don't say, Bernard Labradoodle

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are Labrador.
No poodle.

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We're the labrador come from.
I know things.

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I should definitely get that
doctorate.

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And I am a fun fact is I'm one
of 12 kids.

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So my mom and dad birthed.
Well, my mom birth First, 12,

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humans who look and sound enact
similar to me and I am the ninth

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oldest.
Wow.

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I had, that's crazy.
I now write did when they would,

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like, talk about the younger,
the younger kids, did they like

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group you in with the youngest
three?

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And they're like the babies or
the younger ones.

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So it's kind of like because
there's 12 if you divide by 3

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Well by four, there's three
different families and pretty

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much.
So the oldest for four girls and

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there's the middle for and then
I so I'm technically you know,

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birth order books tend to stop
at about number four.

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Okay.
So like but I act like an oldest

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firstborn so I'm like the oldest
of the youngest group.

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So yeah, yeah the older the I
think they call us like the

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youngers who I don't know,
whatever they call us, probably

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the privileged ones.
That's a good fun, fact.

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Well Lori.
I just want to ask you what have

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you been set free from?
That's a good question.

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I have been.
Wow, that's hard to put in the

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past tense, isn't it?
Yeah, because it's an ongoing

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process.
Yeah, I think one of the biggest

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things I'm in the ongoing
freeing journey of is to be set

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free from self-hatred.
You can also categorize that is

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shame or toxic shame.
I think God is really setting

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and it's in the process of
setting me free from self-hatred

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after I graduated college.
So I was 22.

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I was really wrestling with huge
decision of was I going to come

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out as a lesbian atheist and I
say atheist.

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Cuz I actually believed what the
Bible said about marriage, I

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just didn't think I could live
it out without wanting to die.

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So I was either going to come
out as a lesbian atheist and I

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say lesbian because I've been
attracted to the same sex since

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I was young.
I am married to a man.

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Now feel free to Circle back.
And ask about that.

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How that happened later because
it's a good story.

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But I was and still am attracted
to women again.

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Still, well married to a guy but
I didn't know how to live that

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out.
There's I didn't have congruence

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between my mind, heart and body
and spirit the my Theology.

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And what I was really
experiencing inside of myself

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and so it's either going to kill
myself or come out.

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And I prayed in that moment, God
if you Get me through this.

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Would you help me to be a voice
of Hope and encouragement for

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even one other person?
And I honestly like that wasn't

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like I have an idea.
I'm going to tell this story on

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a podcast in 15 years, that
wasn't in my head.

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It was, I have no idea if I'm
going to make it through this

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and there was no no books out
yet, like, Wesley Hill.

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My friends like Preston
sprinkle, or You know, Jackie

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OPEC.
Nobody was talking about this

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yet.
Nobody was like saying, oh yeah,

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you could experience this and
still follow Jesus either.

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They, it was like, you're either
gay and you find a wife or

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you're not in your straight.
So this was 2008 or you become

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ex-gay.
That was a thing.

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So it's basically like you go
from gay to straight and I was

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so baffled.
You guys, my dad was a pastor at

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that time and I was like, The
annoying Christian leader.

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Girl on my Christian campus,
like the one that did all the

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stuff that was me.
And I was I was very sincere

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about it too.
Like I wasn't like I'm gonna

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perform.
It was truly.

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I loved God, the best, I knew
how.

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And so I was pretty baffled, you
know, I wasn't chasing after

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these same-sex desires.
It just would kind of be, like,

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flickering thought growing up,
and I tried dating Guys and it

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just never understood why I
didn't really want to get close

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to them at all.
And then I met another Christian

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woman who felt the same way
about me as I did about her.

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And I found myself in a secret
same-sex relationship, and the

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fissure in my soul was brutal.
And I hated myself as we're

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talking about self-hatred.
And I felt as if I deserved it.

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I mean you'd hear this this was
in the era of what I call porn

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and pancakes.
What is corn and pancakes just

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bear with me?
Okay, so early 2000s there was a

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good I always say good it seems
like it was really helpful Kind

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of Revolution where with the
dawn of the internet a lot of

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guys discovered pornography and
got addicted to it.

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My And now, that was his story
starting at age 11.

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I know a lot of women wrestle
with that etcetera.

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Okay.
But early 2000s, there was a

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movement going around from
churches where they're like,

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let's talk about porn addiction.
Let's call it.

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Let's make it sadly.
So guys want to come.

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So let's make Saturday, morning
porn and pancakes.

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While pancakes, we're going to
talk about our pornography

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addiction.
Oh, my just get real.

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Yeah, I'm not kidding.
That was everywhere.

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There's lots of time.
Come on.

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He's up front and I'm grateful.
I really am.

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But I will be honest.
It was so brutal to be sitting

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in the Pew or rows of chairs
that are stackable as I was at

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with a Church Plant.
It'd be, it was so brutal to

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hear.
Elders, pastors, share their own

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stories of recovering from or
experiencing maybe even ongoing

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progress the addiction
heterosexual.

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Biography diction.
And then the next sentence could

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be.
Oh, that's so gay or total

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abject discussed, lgbtq people.
So, sexual Brokenness, and

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sexual Brokenness, right?
It's like, we're comparing

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apples and apples, right?
But for some reason, mine was

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worse than theirs.
And here I was lost in wanting

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to die going to church every
week hearing sermons about

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idolatry and how we did.
Surrender, these things we put

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before, God and recognizing, my
girlfriend was this Idol.

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That I was unwilling to let go
of because in a lot of ways, she

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felt like she scratched the itch
of my heart.

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And so I was looking for a safe
place to land.

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I was looking for somewhere for
someone to tell me that the

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self-hatred, I felt inside
wasn't what was the right cure

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quote-unquote.
I don't believe in a daycare.

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I'm just saying that's what I
felt like, I deserved because I

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was wrestling with what I felt
like was the worst then.

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So there I was wrestling with
that and I graduated from

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college and I was on my own.
I was a newspaper.

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Reporter I got it.
Journalism degree and I was

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like, I can do whatever I want.
He'll like I'm not I'm not a

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Christian College anymore, I had
broken up with my girlfriend, I

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tried dating.
This one guy and I was like, I

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really my heart connected to him
and then we broke up and it was

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as if we never dated I was like,
24/7.

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A girl is what I need.
And I start seeing a therapist

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who, because of me Suicidal
ideation.

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One of my friends was like,
yeah, you should probably not

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want to kill yourself.
That's like, that's fair.

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That's a good idea.
Smart.

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So I start seeing her and gods
will had it.

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That she was not just a
therapist, she was more like,

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Dumbledore Yota.
Jedi Master of spiritual

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amazingness.
Now she wasn't actually

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Dumbledore.
She wasn't actually magical, but

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she just isn't new God, ever
meet those people who you like,

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it seems like they're floating
so holy that was her but she

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didn't come off the way.
It also didn't hurt that, she

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was like 61 and very tall and
knew, and loved God.

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And she started using language.
That was so helpful for me, in

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my, self-perception to remove
some of that shame and

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self-hatred.
First of all, if you study any

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of Kurt Thompson's work, the
soul of Shame, the antidote to

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shame or self-hatred is to have
to be seen in your mess and

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loved in your mess.
That's what God did in the

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garden with Adam and Eve.
They were hiding.

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And he's like, where are you?
And he didn't ask, where are you

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because you lost them?
He's God.

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Like he's looking for them.
And so here's Adam and Eve and

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it was like, why are you hiding?
We were shamed because not

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because of the sin, they did but
because of their nakedness, they

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didn't have to feel that same
until they felt this whole body

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self-hatred that God.
He saw them in their mess and he

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called him out, he sought to
them.

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Carolyn, that was my counselors.
Name.

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She sought me out and she didn't
talk to me about Leviticus 18 or

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20 or First Corinthians 6 or
Romans want or any of the other

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homosexuality quote-unquote, you
know, clobber passages.

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She started using heart
language.

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And she'd ask me questions like
Lori, when you envision the

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ideal.
Perfect woman.

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What are you hoping for?
I was like gasp, no one's ever

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asked that before.
No, and it feels awkward to say,

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I actually don't even know what
I'd say.

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Like it's gonna be an awkward
like sexual words.

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I'm about to say and I was
shocked because the words that

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came out of my mouth were not
sexual in nature at all.

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They were heart words.
I want to be seen and known and

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loved.
And I have been looking for

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being seen, no one in love.
Since I was a little kid and our

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parents.
Ideally are the perfect

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representation of God who see us
and know us and love us just as

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we are and show us.
God, they're the perfect

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reflection of God, but of
course, they're in perfect.

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I'm imperfect as a parent now.
But I was like, she was like,

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those are good needs Lori.
You're just looking in the wrong

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place.
Now the right place was not to a

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dude.
And I also said to her and my

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sassy self they State.
They said well the answer

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shouldn't isn't going to be
Jesus because I've tried him and

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he doesn't work and she said,
well, it is Jesus.

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And it was Jesus, of course,
he's the answer.

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Ideally, our parents are these
perfect representations of God

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who see us and know us and love
us but they can't ever scratch.

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Those issues of our heart.
We call them these this hole in

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our heart Augustine.
Referred to it that he said, you

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made us for our yourself.
O Lord, our heart is restless

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until it rests in you.
And so we have these good needs

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inside.
It's not always okay to say that

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you're needy.
It's not how we usually.

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Okay, to say I want to be
chosen.

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I want to be safe, I need to be
safe.

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I want to be sought, but we all
go to the wrong places and we

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all have barriers between these
good needs of our heart.

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And the need neither of our soul
needs barriers are trauma, their

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sin.
We've done.

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They're just things, we've
learned in correctly.

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And so Carolyn my counselor, she
really helped me to remove some

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of those barriers between the
good needs of my heart and the

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need M of my soul and that did
not take me from gay to straight

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but it really did make room for
God's.

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Love more of his love.
I actually experienced it.

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Actually I like I usually say
like that's when I fell in love

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with Jesus and as such an eye
Rowley sentence but true It

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isn't like the best.
I know how to say it.

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Like, I was like, oh my word,
I'm looking for Jesus, like, are

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you kidding me?
The whole time?

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Yeah, he can actually scratch
the edge, even though it's not

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permanent.
Like that's, that's Heaven.

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00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:01,200
Talk that we will experience,
but we could have these glimmers

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of it now.
And so, if Asians three talks

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about what his love does, so
then you'll be filled with the

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fullness of life and power that
comes from God, when you know

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this love that surpasses
knowledge.

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So it fills us, his love fills
us with his power, his power for

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what I would argue it's the
empowers US to die to self to

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not just my same-sex, desirous
default, but also my

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perfectionism default to to feel
OK by being perfect to feel OK

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by performing enough to feel.
OK, by trying to be one of the

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best kids of The Twelve.
Tell me siblings.

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So that really helped me.
To remove the self-hatred and

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again, it's in process but to
feel empowered enough to know.

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God loves me right now.
When those pastors, say things,

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when there is the hypocritical
statements and sentences.

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I am loved by God, now the
opposite of homosexuality or

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same sex.
Desire is not heterosexual

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00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:25,800
desire.
Its It's Jesus completion in

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him, so I wasn't interested in
men.

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So it wasn't a matter of me
being like, men versus women.

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It was a matter of like this is
what I'm drawn toward this.

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Seems like it's going to scratch
the itch of my heart and I

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realized, she couldn't.
Women can't men can't either.

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But then that's another question
over his old, in a way that men

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00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,200
and women in marriage.
Why am I married to a dude now?

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Really the way I see the world
from my world view is, we are

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all created for an intimate
relationship with Jesus.

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We all have broken sexuality and
some of our defaults are toward

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00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,200
the same sex and we get to
surrender those.

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00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,800
And some of us who are attracted
to the opposite, sex is we have

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00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,600
to surrender that and we all
need to ask the Lord Jesus.

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00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,300
What do you want with my life?
What are you?

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00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,900
What do you want with my life?
It's not.

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00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,000
Can you help me find my person?
It's what you got for me.

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Jesus!
Mmm.

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00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,900
And so he's got this kingdom of
God thing that he's doing.

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He wants us to be a part of it.
And so, married and single.

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00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:43,100
Those are equally valuable
modalities or modes.

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00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:47,600
We can fulfill the mission to
make disciples Equally valuable.

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00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,300
Thank you might be saying, oh
well I really sense the Lord the

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00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:56,800
way he wants me to mode and this
is what I start sensing.

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00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,200
So I married to a guy, the mou
that he wants me Lori, not

296
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,800
everyone liked me, he could have
called me to single this, but he

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00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,900
wants me to fulfill the mission
to make disciples as a married

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00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:12,300
woman and I go, all right, well
then what's marriage.

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00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:15,600
It's not like a oh it's too
dude.

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00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,000
It's what.
All, what is it why is it to do?

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00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:23,500
And this is where the second
half of my story comes in which

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00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:26,300
I won't elaborate on, but you
guys can read about it in our

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00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:29,400
book, my husband and my book
impossible marriage.

304
00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:33,400
We are married almost ended
about seven years in because I

305
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,200
really had to confront the
Theology of marriage.

306
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,400
Why is it male and female
marriage?

307
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,900
I'm a little confused.
If you start talking to anyone,

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00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:46,700
who's married gay straight,
especially straight marriages in

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00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:49,400
the church.
Many of them are hurting very

310
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,200
deeply and I Confused.
You know, if you're like a lot

311
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:59,800
of the language you here is like
the old ball and chain, you

312
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,100
know, you really want to have,
isn't it?

313
00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:05,000
Hilarious, how you want to have
sex before you get married, but

314
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,900
then, you get married and oh my
gosh, she just hate them like

315
00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:14,100
truly.
That's, that's a lot of the

316
00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:19,600
jokes, is I roles so where I had
to look?

317
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:22,400
Sure.
Sure sure you can look up you

318
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,900
know Leviticus 18:22
blahblahblah Romans 1 First

319
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:30,100
Corinthians 6 which matter
against prohibitions against

320
00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:31,400
same-sex marriage but I was
curious.

321
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,900
Why is it?
What's the yes of marriage?

322
00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:36,100
This is what I think everyone
needs to ask.

323
00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:39,200
If God is calling you to
marriage, what's marriage about

324
00:21:39,500 --> 00:21:41,900
and this to me is the strongest
argument.

325
00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:47,400
For God's sign for marriage is
Ephesians 5:31 32.

326
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,600
For this reason a man shall
leave his mother and father, and

327
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,400
the two shall be United to one.
This is a profound mystery.

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00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:56,000
I'm talking about Christ and the
church.

329
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:02,000
So, male and female.
United into one, what's the

330
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,800
mystery?
What's the mystery?

331
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,800
Well, okay mail.
It is it is it that men and

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00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,500
women fall in love and it's just
a mystery.

333
00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:13,800
I don't know.
Boo-boo on the nose, they just

334
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,700
fall in love and I feel like
yeah, I'm very confused about

335
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:19,200
that.
Tell me about that mystery.

336
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:25,700
Please for someone like me.
So guys, know the mystery is the

337
00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:28,500
illustration of Christ.
In the church.

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00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:30,700
Hold up.
I never heard or I never

339
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:32,700
understood this.
If I heard this growing up, I

340
00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:33,800
did not.
Understand it.

341
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,300
So I'm a throw it out for you
all listeners and you dear Jenny

342
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:39,900
and K.
So you haven't heard, this is

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00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,100
men and women are called if
they're called some marriage.

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00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:46,700
It's supposed to be male and
female because it's an

345
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:51,000
illustration of the way Christ
and the church are one, how

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00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,100
different are men and women
pretty different.

347
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:02,400
So they're pretty different but
how different is God from the

348
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:03,400
church.
Church.

349
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,300
But like ontologically
different, it says, in Ephesians

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00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:10,600
1.
He is far above every ruler,

351
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,300
power and authority.
Not only in this life, but in

352
00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:17,100
the life to come, it doesn't
Isaiah 58 that he lives in

353
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:20,000
eternity.
What the heck does that even

354
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:26,200
mean?
Get rid of the whole Arc plot of

355
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,100
the Bible, from the beginning,
there's a marriage in the end.

356
00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:32,400
There's a marriage.
Is this is Christopher West says

357
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,700
this, T is a Pope, John Paul the
second Theology of the Body

358
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:39,400
student.
He says, the whole Bible can be

359
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,700
summed up in this one.
In three words, four, words God

360
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:50,500
wants to marry us.
Marriage is a picture of the

361
00:23:50,500 --> 00:23:55,900
Gospel.
When my kids ask me, why is it,

362
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,800
why can't two girls marry each
other?

363
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:04,100
I say, well, they can legally I
said but it's not God's best

364
00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:09,300
because when Mommy and Daddy
love each other we show you a

365
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:14,000
picture of how much God loves
you.

366
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:21,000
Marriage is a metaphor.
It's a gospel picture in our

367
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,600
neighborhoods, in our homes and
in the grocery store of how very

368
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,100
different we are from each
other.

369
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:32,900
How very different God is from
us, but how he will, he will and

370
00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:37,200
wants to marry us.
So, this is why it's such a

371
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,300
significant question and why it
matters is, it's not, you know,

372
00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:44,300
well it's not Adam and Steve,
it's out of it, not without any

373
00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:48,500
of its kind of know, it's, if
we're choose saying yes, to

374
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:50,500
marriage.
Gay straight or otherwise.

375
00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:54,000
However you identify however
your your broken sexuality is if

376
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,400
you're saying yes to marriage
then I believe you're saying yes

377
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,800
to an opposite-sex marriage.
What you're saying yes to a

378
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:07,700
gospel picture that's not Yeah,
I love that because it's it's

379
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:12,400
like sometimes the question
that's going through our heads

380
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:19,100
is like who am I attracted to?
But that's not necessarily the

381
00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:22,600
key question.
It's it's like what what did God

382
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:28,100
designed marriage to be like?
Yeah yep and then those

383
00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:30,700
attraction questions can factor
in you know?

384
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:34,900
Like it can be a part but I
don't think they should be the

385
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,500
primary.
Mary Park.

386
00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:44,200
It's yeah, we've really lost.
I think a lot of the theological

387
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,700
beauty of marriage in my
opinion.

388
00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:52,200
Mmm, that's a beautiful picture
of what the actual like key

389
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,800
question is, and that's not
exactly.

390
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,800
That's a question that people
are wrestling with just

391
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,000
everywhere in the states right
now.

392
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,500
It's obviously legal to marry
someone of the The same sex, but

393
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,700
Christians are there on
different sides.

394
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,300
There are Christians who are
affirming of that?

395
00:26:14,300 --> 00:26:16,900
And there are Christians, who
would say, they don't believe

396
00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:24,200
that's what the Bible meant, but
as you just wonderfully, put The

397
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,700
design of marriage has to be man
and woman and it's to primarily

398
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:32,200
look to Jesus whether you're
called be married or single.

399
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:41,100
So, if someone is comes out as
gay or or transgender or

400
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,900
bisexual or however, they're
identifying their self or

401
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:47,200
struggling with same-sex
attraction, what do you think

402
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:54,200
that the church's response needs
to be Oh man, nothing but love.

403
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,100
I mean, I recently posted and
I'll say this when I speak and

404
00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:03,700
I'll say we love songs that come
on the radio that say things

405
00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:10,800
like you love me just the way I
am and we love to sing that

406
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:16,300
about ourselves.
As we consider our own pet sins,

407
00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:24,300
can lgbtq people saying that
just as much as we anyone can,

408
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:26,900
as you can, can I sing?
That too.

409
00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:29,900
Now the pushback will get within
one point.

410
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:32,000
Two seconds is yes, but God
loves us enough.

411
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,500
Not to leave us there.
I hear you people.

412
00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:41,100
I know but let me reference for
you.

413
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:48,100
The last several decades, I grew
up over hearing all the war on

414
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:51,300
marriage talk.
There's a war on marriage.

415
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:54,700
This was during Moral, Majority
80s and 90s and if you are

416
00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:58,100
younger than 25, You might not
have grown up without, but maybe

417
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:00,300
you did.
But it was basically a lot of

418
00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:03,800
talk about the quote-unquote
homosexual, agenda is going to

419
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,300
destroy America.
Unlike murder babies in their

420
00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:11,900
cribs, that was the essence of
it and I grew up with that as a,

421
00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:15,400
not straight kid.
I heard that on the radio and do

422
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,500
you think I felt safe to share
my anything?

423
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:22,600
Absolutely not.
Nope, no.

424
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,200
And this suicidality rate of
lgbtq kids.

425
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:32,300
Two to four times more likely
and 41% of trans people are more

426
00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:38,100
likely to attempt, suicide 41%,
like one out of two.

427
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,700
That's too much.
So here's when I share

428
00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:46,100
statistics like that, something
that Grieves my heart and my

429
00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:50,500
spirit is there's like a third
layer of people's Consciousness.

430
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:53,200
I'm not assuming this about your
listeners now, but I was some

431
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,900
people's Consciousness when they
hear the suicidality right to

432
00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:58,300
self.
Hatred rate, etcetera.

433
00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:03,500
The self-harm is they think?
Yeah, well, they're Sinners.

434
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:09,300
Don't they deserve it?
And I implore you, if that's

435
00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:11,800
something that's going on in
your own head, as you're

436
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,500
listening or someone, you know,
is raise your hand if you

437
00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:20,800
deserve life.
All have sinned and fallen short

438
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,500
of the glory of God.
And so, I would say, the first

439
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:29,900
thing we need to do is Love
people where they are as they

440
00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:32,600
are.
I wished.

441
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,100
That I could have at least heard
more of the ground is level at

442
00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:42,800
the foot of the cross in that
people at from the pulpit would

443
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:49,200
share here is some list of sins,
lgbtq stuff porn stuff and

444
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,100
really like put it on the same
playing field.

445
00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:55,300
I actually would help me feel
safe to name.

446
00:29:55,300 --> 00:30:00,400
My stuff is sin, but put it on
the same plain film and ask your

447
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,300
sin.
So love, we love.

448
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:08,200
Everyone the same and then when
he talked about Sin included, if

449
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,600
you're talking about a sermon,
don't not include it, but also

450
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,900
don't isolate it right?
And this is the worst one.

451
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,300
It doesn't help me feel safe.
If you don't say, it doesn't

452
00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:20,200
help me feel safe.
If you do only say it, I want to

453
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,200
hear all the sexual sins if
you're if it's the sexual sin

454
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:29,300
sermon, let's get em all and so
I think that's a huge thing and

455
00:30:29,300 --> 00:30:34,200
then I, you know, I do out seven
our talk and a two hour Or talk

456
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,600
on how to be safe.
But I'll say one other thing is

457
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,900
I would encourage you to use the
language of the day.

458
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:46,100
And so instead of demanding, you
know, people, I use your

459
00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:51,000
language being missional.
If you were to fly to a foreign

460
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,600
country and didn't speak their
language and you jumped out of

461
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,100
the airplane and you screamed,
you need to know Jesus.

462
00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:58,800
Mmm.
Yeah, I don't think that go

463
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,900
over.
Well, I would encourage you to

464
00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:05,700
speak.
The language in order to earn

465
00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:11,700
the relational currency or
Equity to be able to speak at a

466
00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:16,000
heart level.
So those are my two things love

467
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:21,100
and speak the language.
I feel like what you said makes

468
00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:26,200
so much sense and that like
let's take if you're you know

469
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,800
just being a safe place for a
friend sometimes.

470
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,000
You know, if someone says, well,
I'm struggling with making out

471
00:31:35,008 --> 00:31:37,900
with my boyfriend too much or we
have bad boundaries, you're

472
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:41,500
praying, make yourself like
available to talk whenever they

473
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:43,400
want.
Like how can we set these

474
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,100
boundaries?
Yes.

475
00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:48,200
And how they're doing?
But maybe, on the other hand if

476
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,800
they were like I am attracted to
women and I'm a woman, you know

477
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,000
sometimes?
Yeah.

478
00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:57,600
I feel like we need to prove
like that is wrong but there's

479
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,700
no need to to shove that in
their face right there.

480
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,600
And this is not the place for
it.

481
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:08,100
Yes, yes that's so good.
I will say, if a doubt switch it

482
00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:11,700
out, if you really like have
some big issues with lgbtq

483
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:15,400
stuff, switch it out in your
mind, don't say it out loud for

484
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,300
a sin.
You can more easily understand

485
00:32:18,300 --> 00:32:21,800
and empathize with, hmm.
So, what if this woman was

486
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,200
sleeping with her boyfriend?
How would I talk with her?

487
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:28,400
Oh, like a normal person?
Yeah.

488
00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:30,300
Yeah.
What am I talks?

489
00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:33,900
I'm like, I say that like least
five or six just be a normal

490
00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:36,500
human doesn't talk.
That's good question.

491
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:42,100
Yeah, yeah, that's so good.
So let's say there are people

492
00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:45,200
listening who are in that same
boat as you were when you were

493
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:50,400
22 and they're just like what
advice would you give them if

494
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,500
you were talking to?
Let's say yourself as a 22 year

495
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:57,400
old coming out of college.
Yeah one advice that I give her.

496
00:32:57,500 --> 00:33:01,700
Oh my word.
I probably just sit with her and

497
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:08,200
just cry for a while at how
misunderstood she feels and is,

498
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,300
and how lonely and isolating
this spaces.

499
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,200
And then I would say, you know
what, a lot of people do really

500
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:23,200
stink at this conversation,
you're not wrong and I really

501
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,300
want to try and be a safe place
for you.

502
00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:29,000
Will you please help?
Teach me and tell me if I say

503
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,800
something wrong?
And will you help me to to hear

504
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:38,800
you?
I was dying almost literally for

505
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,500
just someone to hear me and to
just put all the questions on

506
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:47,600
the table and sort through it.
Then want to argue on to think.

507
00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:51,900
And I and people were so uptight
and anxious.

508
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:55,800
They were unwilling to pause
there.

509
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,500
Truth swords daggers to just
hear me.

510
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,200
So I would really listen, which
there's a Harvard study that

511
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,300
says, if you simply listen to
people who are in completely

512
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:17,800
opposite ends of you in your
beliefs, that I think it

513
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,199
decreases, Anxiety and helps
them to actually come to even

514
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:26,800
your side a little bit more by
like 46% song, a 40 and a 41:46

515
00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:28,699
just listening.
Wow.

516
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,300
Calms the down them down.
Instead of being like I love you

517
00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:36,300
but I don't you know, it like
you were saying just be normal.

518
00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:39,500
So I think empathy sitting next
to and then.

519
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,000
All right, let's throw it on the
table.

520
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,500
Let's look at this together.
What do you think about this?

521
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,100
Okay, I'm going to switch tracks
a little bit here and I think I

522
00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:54,800
wanted to include this because
it's becoming more and more of a

523
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,400
prevalent topic to talk about,
and we know that it's becoming

524
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,500
illegal in certain States.
It probably will become illegal

525
00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:07,600
in more states in the future.
But I wanted to know about your

526
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,800
thoughts on conversion therapy.
First of all, could you define

527
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,700
what that is for any listener?
Who is not familiar?

528
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,800
Earlier with it, sure conversion
therapy.

529
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,100
I think different people will
Define it differently but

530
00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:22,700
essentially, the way I
understand it is, you are trying

531
00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:29,200
to convert someone from gay to
straight and this happened a lot

532
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,900
in the 80s 90s.
There's like a lot of promises

533
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:35,800
of straightness when I was
Googling things even in the

534
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,000
early 2000's.
That was a lot.

535
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,100
It was like, here's all the
testimonies of people who are

536
00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:43,600
snorting, crack and sleeping
with the same sex, and then

537
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,500
they, He became straight and you
Christian hey Greg Johnson's

538
00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:51,500
book, still time to care.
Greg Johnson, he talks about the

539
00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:54,500
history of that.
It's really valuable valuable

540
00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:59,500
book.
And I think there was a, let me

541
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:02,500
know if you've seen this, there
was a Netflix documentary.

542
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,500
Oh yeah, it was called pray
away.

543
00:36:05,900 --> 00:36:10,000
Yeah, trying to get away.
If you see that Rogers, I

544
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,800
couldn't watch it.
I was in a rough emotional state

545
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,600
but I read a lot about it and
Julie I've met her Julie Rogers

546
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,800
several times as she's kind of
walked, she's like kind of the

547
00:36:21,808 --> 00:36:26,900
star of that documentary.
I've Walked and walked the

548
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:30,800
followed her journey from, you
know, shoot the Exodus.

549
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,600
So, that was an ex-gay movement
to being at Wheaton and she was

550
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,800
side B, which means she
identifies as gay but holding to

551
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,900
a traditional view, then she
became a firming and then she

552
00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:43,100
married your wife.
So if kind of watched her.

553
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,500
Okay, so watching that
documentary I can you came out

554
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:53,100
last summer that was the first
like exposure.

555
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:57,100
To what conversion therapy was?
I We know this was a thing but

556
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,500
it was talking specifically
about exodus.

557
00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:03,600
Yes and how harmful that was.
And I was like, oh my goodness,

558
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,100
is this like still going on?
Are there Street like this?

559
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,700
So what are your thoughts?
Do you think that conversion

560
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,100
therapy is biblical at all?
Oh, yikes.

561
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:25,200
No I I don't I I think it is
there like that.

562
00:37:25,300 --> 00:37:28,400
The ant, some of the arrows of
it, it would like, from what

563
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,700
I've heard.
Now, maybe this is only Legend

564
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,500
at this point but from what I
understand, I was even like,

565
00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:37,300
layers of shock therapy, like
they would have you watch porn

566
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,100
either gay or straight, I can't
remember.

567
00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:41,600
But try and like, shock you out
of your gayness.

568
00:37:41,700 --> 00:37:44,500
So that seems, like, I don't
know evil.

569
00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:51,300
So I, I used to ask the Lord to
change me.

570
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:55,700
I don't know if I know any gay
people who didn't have a None of

571
00:37:55,700 --> 00:38:00,000
that at least like who grew up
in the church and then I

572
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,800
realized it was a waste of a
prayer.

573
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,000
I don't need to become straight
as that's.

574
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:06,700
I don't know anyone who's
straight.

575
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:10,500
I've never ever met you like so
you are you praying to never be

576
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:12,900
tempted in that version of
sexuality again?

577
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:15,000
Like, where in the Bible?
Does it say you're never going

578
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,400
to be tempted ever again?
Never, it's when you are

579
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,500
tempted.
God will provide a way out, so

580
00:38:21,500 --> 00:38:25,600
you can stand up under it.
So, if I became a raging

581
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:28,400
heterosexual, my husband
wouldn't love that.

582
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,800
He would be like, well, ah,
these guys now, like that's

583
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,100
somehow better.
Do I want?

584
00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:41,200
I want my sexuality to be
submitted to the lordship of

585
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:46,100
Christ, that's my prayer.
It's and then if he's if he's

586
00:38:46,100 --> 00:38:50,200
called you to marriage, whatever
your default Brokenness is of

587
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:55,200
your sexuality, then ask the
Lord to make you one with your

588
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,800
spouse so that you are a
beautiful gospel picture.

589
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:05,500
To both your spouse and yourself
as a world of how much God loves

590
00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:10,100
you and them and everybody.
So I really think it's a waste

591
00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:12,900
of a prayer.
I'm so I think I think

592
00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:18,300
conversion therapy is fruit of a
marriage idolatrous World.

593
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,500
Wow, it's yeah.
That makes a lot of sense as you

594
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:27,500
put it like that but yeah it is
only focusing on literally what

595
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:30,100
we can see, not on the other
side of you.

596
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,700
Eternity at all.
Yep, it's just focusing on who

597
00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:36,700
you marry right now.
Conversion.

598
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:42,100
Therapy is fruit.
Yes of a marriage idolatrous and

599
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:46,700
sex-obsessed world.
We, yeah, we are like what you

600
00:39:46,700 --> 00:39:48,500
need to find them attractive.
Why?

601
00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:50,500
Because that's what your life is
about.

602
00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:53,500
Is making Christian babies and
tithing and dying.

603
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:56,500
Hmm.
Yeah, at all, it's about the

604
00:39:56,500 --> 00:39:59,400
kingdom of God and he may
actually want to honor.

605
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,500
You may get more glory to God
through your daily submission,

606
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:07,600
of your version of bro.
Sexuality, then if you're the

607
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,600
straightest person, all day
every day.

608
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:14,800
Yeah it's that's not the point
of life, such a cheap and boring

609
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,500
life to focus on only sexuality.
Well I'm glad we square that

610
00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:22,600
away.
It is not biblical in my

611
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:27,400
opinion, most experts in this
field would agree.

612
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:34,700
Yeah, so if we have that, okay,
this doesn't align with what the

613
00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:38,100
Lord is.
Leading Believers to live by.

614
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:43,100
Is it at all, in any way,
helpful or do they have any,

615
00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:47,600
like technically successful
stories of?

616
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,500
Yeah, it actually did work.
I mean, again, Greg Johnson is

617
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,300
still time to care.
He'll quote, some things if you

618
00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:59,700
want like a nice summary of some
of the quote-unquote research,

619
00:40:59,700 --> 00:41:06,400
but it He all to borrow.
My dad's words hogwash, like it

620
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,800
really hits.
The research is shoddy and and

621
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,800
then anecdotally, I've talked
with hundreds of submitted to

622
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:19,100
Christ lgbtq people who identify
as SSA or same-sex attracted or

623
00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:22,800
lgbtq.
At some level I do have not yet

624
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,700
met someone gone from gay to
straight like and because even

625
00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:29,900
if they say they do ask them.
So you never struggle with lust

626
00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:31,800
for the same sex.
Yes, I do.

627
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,500
Okay, so you got great light and
then again, won't be the next

628
00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:37,400
question.
Oh good.

629
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,500
So you struggle with less toward
the opposite sex?

630
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:41,700
Like and then we say what?
Good job.

631
00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:44,900
Congratulations scratch.
Like what?

632
00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:49,000
What is that conversation?
That makes a lot of sense.

633
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:58,100
So Lori if people listening want
to do more research or dive into

634
00:41:58,100 --> 00:42:02,500
the word themselves, are there
any Resources that you would

635
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:06,500
recommend about this topic.
Any aspect of it to Artisan?

636
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:12,600
Yeah, I think I'm good starting
point is Center for Faith.com.

637
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,400
That's my friend.
Doctors Preston.

638
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,100
Sprinkle and Greg Coles and some
other friends there.

639
00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:21,500
I'm on the board of directors.
They're so full disclosure, but

640
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:24,200
it's just a really solid not
cheesy.

641
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,400
And like, weird, I don't know,
just where you get a bad Vibe

642
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,700
and maybe you may, you may buy
badly.

643
00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:33,300
But it's just theologically
grounded.

644
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:35,800
You can look up his pastoral
papers if you're like, okay.

645
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,000
Well, what about pederasty?
I thought it was just like, you

646
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,300
know, all these arguments that
you here look up, you know, 15

647
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:44,800
reasons for the affirming View
and 15 responses.

648
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,600
If you want to look up specific
arguments back and forth from

649
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,900
with that, you're affirming
friends, or you yourself may

650
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:52,600
have feel free to read them but
he's really gracious and its

651
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,000
tone and tries his best to
engage this.

652
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,900
Well, you can also check out our
podcast again, Ron a Hiatus this

653
00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:02,400
year.
It's called hole in my heart

654
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,900
podcast.
We've interviewed everybody, a

655
00:43:04,908 --> 00:43:08,000
lot of people who are in this
conversation, we talked a lot

656
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,400
about trauma to my husband's a
therapist.

657
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,600
And so we engage that, you can
also read our book.

658
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,200
If you want to know more about
the marriage metaphor, they

659
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,600
talked about and not how we got
married, and how we're staying

660
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,300
married.
It's called an impossible

661
00:43:25,300 --> 00:43:27,500
marriage.
Did that with ivp in 2020?

662
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:31,700
So yeah, those are a few places.
Start.

663
00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:35,600
I will make sure to link all of
those in the show notes.

664
00:43:35,900 --> 00:43:39,800
So any listener who wants to
just click on any of them?

665
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,800
They can easily access them and
Laurie.

666
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,100
I cannot, thank you enough for
being our guest today.

667
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,200
Thank you so much for sharing
your wisdom and your experience.

668
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,900
I think that the world needs
more of what you can offer,

669
00:43:54,300 --> 00:43:56,800
okay?
Grayson being a safe space for

670
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,000
people.
Thanks so much so glad you're

671
00:44:00,900 --> 00:44:03,700
Putting these messages out
there, Jenny, thanks for your

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00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:09,900
doing too.
Thank you so much for listening

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00:44:09,900 --> 00:44:12,100
to this episode of head to our
podcast.

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00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:14,400
It's a joy to record them and a
joy to have you.

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00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,700
Listen, I love hearing from you.
So if any part of this episode

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00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:21,100
was helpful, go ahead.
Share it, on your Instagram

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00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:24,100
story, and tag us.
The handle is head to Heart

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00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:27,600
underscore podcast.
And if you would be so kind,

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00:44:27,700 --> 00:44:31,200
leave us a rating and review on
Apple podcasts or our website.

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00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:33,200
It helps out the show so much
when you do.

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00:44:34,100 --> 00:44:36,700
We'll be releasing episodes to
you every other Friday.

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00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,100
So stay tuned and thanks for
joining us.