S4E11: He/She/They: How To Handle Pronouns + Listener Q&A

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Welcome to head to Heart
Podcast.

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I'm your host, Jenny Markham.
This biweekly podcast is created

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to be a safe space to admit what
we truly believe in our hearts.

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And many of us, when we take the
time to truly examine ourselves,

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will find some sort of shame,
fear or lies hiding in there.

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And it is never.
God's will for us to stay in

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bondage to those.
It's his truth that sets us free

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from them.
But there's a huge difference

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between having biblical
knowledge floating around in our

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heads and actually believing
that it's true.

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Until God's truth makes its way
into our hearts, nothing

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changes.
We'll be doing a mix of solo

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episodes and interviews with
friends who have experienced the

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freedom that comes when head
knowledge becomes heart

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knowledge.
We'll also have a time of prayer

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where you will have a chance to
respond to what God is inviting

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you into at the end of each
episode.

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The truth will set you free so
you can walk every day in the

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freedom God desires for you.
It's time to let go of shame,

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fear, and lies.
Those aren't yours to carry.

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Thanks for joining us.
Welcome back to Head to Heart

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Podcast.
I'm your host, Jenny Markham.

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Today I'm bringing on a guest,
and this is her second time.

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So almost a full year ago I
interviewed Laurie Krieg, and

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now it's a reunion because she's
back once again.

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So Laurie, just in case someone
did not listen to the episode a

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year ago, which I titled Same
Sex, Attraction Meets the

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Gospel.
How to Love, Care For, and

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respond to the L GB, TQ Plus
Community.

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Very long title.
But just in case someone did not

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listen to that one first and
they have no idea who you are,

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why don't you introduce
yourself?

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Tell us who you are, what you
do.

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Make sure you include a new fun
fact, different than the one you

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used last time.
Yeah, so glad to be back with

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you guys.
My name is Lori Kriegan.

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For the last decade, my ministry
world has been focused around

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helping the way I tell.
Laypeople is helping the church

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to engage sexuality, marriage, L
GB TQ conversations from an

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orthodox or historically
biblical view.

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So believing God's design for
marriage between a man and woman

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and not seeing gender
transitioning as God's ideal,

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rather suffering with your
gender with Jesus.

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So we'll get more into that I'm
sure.

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So helping the church to engage
those spaces.

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And not be a jerk about it.
So.

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Very nicely put, yes.
That's been the last decade, and

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so I am married to my husband of
almost 15 years, Matt Creed.

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We've written a book together
called An Impossible Marriage.

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We've got 3 little kids, 8/6 and
four years old, and I enjoy

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speaking on these topics and
writing about them and.

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Walking alongside people,
disciplining as God allows me

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to.
So that's my vocation, family.

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And then to the fun fact.
I've shared this on our own

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podcast, which also has a heart
name in it.

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Hole in my heart.
But I when I get really tired,

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everything looks really tiny.
It's.

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Called Alice in Wonderland
Syndrome.

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And it's nothing.
Serious.

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There's like no issue with it.
It's just something my brain and

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eyes do, So when I'm tired,
that's what happens.

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OK, so when you're tired, you
squint a lot.

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Yeah, I'm like trying.
I just, I'm like, I remember as

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a little kid being like, Oh
yeah, everything's tiny again.

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And I just thought that happened
to people.

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And then I'm like, I need to go
to bed.

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So I kind of am squinting, but
mostly I'm like trying to find

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the nearest pillow.
That's funny.

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And Alice in Wonderland syndrome
is a term that the Doctor gave

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you.
I googled it.

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I I did it myself.
I self diagnosed.

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Yes, that's so funny.
What a great name for that.

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And that's funny, right?
But it's nothing serious.

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It just is what it is.
I'm.

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Suddenly huge and everything.
Yes, it's ridiculous.

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That's so funny.
Well, Lori, what have you been

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set free from?
Man, we were chatting a little

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bit before recording and you
named it and it is true.

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It's it's just really being set.
See, see, now that I'm about to

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say it, I'm like, I'm still
working on it, but being set

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free from selfhatred and what I
believe is toxic shame, so there

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can be good or godly shame.
We have to talk about this in

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our book.
That can lead us to repentance.

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So that's like where we feel the
weight of our sin.

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But for me, toxic shame is is
lethal.

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That says who I am is worthless,
not what I did was not worth it.

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Godly shame leads to that what I
did was not worth it.

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But toxic shame leads to
selfhatred.

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So that I would say is the
biggest thing I've been set free

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from.
And could you go briefly just

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into your story of how that
happened?

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As I mentioned to new listeners,
I've been engaging this intense

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space, the sexuality and church
intersection, for the last

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almost decade.
And that didn't just pop into my

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head because it sounded like fun
to put my hand in a blender.

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It came from.
It's from my own story, which.

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Those that's like the best way
God can use us is that he takes

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our greatest pain points and put
into his hands.

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He transforms them into his
garden of glory.

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So I felt attractions toward the
same sex growing up in a

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Christian home, 80s and 90s, and
I really just banished them as

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much as I could from my psyche.
And was like, that's the worst

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sin.
You're not even allowed.

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That's not it was almost so bad.
It was uncategorically like it.

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It couldn't even be categorized
as sin because it was so

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horrible in my circles that I
walked in and so I just tried to

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detach from those desires and
dated some guys.

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And then in college I met a girl
who felt the same way about me

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as I did about her and.
Just to be.

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Clear.
I wasn't like snorting crack.

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And then dating girls like I was
a Bible studies.

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I really, genuinely love Jesus
as much as I knew how.

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So I was super baffled when I
had this crisis of desire and

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theology and so I didn't really
know where to go with it.

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So I did internalize it and took
it to selfhatred.

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And yet.
Being with my girlfriend, there

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were some good moments that
helped me to that.

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I felt alive and I felt free.
And yet there was this war with

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my theology and I did know how
to resolve it.

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I did not know how and so
someone came alongside me and

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discipled me.
Technically she was my

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therapist, but she really
understood the deeper needs

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beneath our desires.
So.

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If we are running to things that
feel natural to us, and Jude

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even talks about following our
natural instincts, we all have

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natural desires because of the
Fall.

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And so it felt natural to me to
be with my girlfriend, but I

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didn't realize that they were
deeper needs beneath those

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things that felt natural.
And those needs were things like

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to be seen.
Known, loved, desired, chosen.

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Those are good desires.
I was just taking them to the

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wrong place.
Now how do I know if that was

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the wrong place?
Like why was it wrong to go to

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my girlfriend?
Is is that's where the word

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bucks up against our fall dash
natural desires.

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So I didn't know how to resolve
those what I wanted with the

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word but when she helped me to
see her name was Carolyn that.

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Underneath this girlfriend I had
was I want to be seen and known

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and loved and chosen.
And she's like Laurie.

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Those are good desires.
You're just taking them to the

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wrong place now, the right.
Place was not to a guy.

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And I was super sassy and I was
like, well, don't tell me it's

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Jesus because I like know Jesus
and I'm a super Christian.

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So shush.
And she was like, well, it is

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Jesus.
But what Carolyn taught me was I

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had a lot of barriers between
the deeper needs of my heart to

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be seen, no love chosen belong,
and the need meter of my soul.

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I had a lot of barriers.
I had bitterness and sure I had

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unconfessed sin, but I had pain
from the church.

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I had regular old childhood.
Wounding that I needed to learn

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how to lament.
I needed to learn how to

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forgive.
I needed to learn how to walk

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with myself with grace.
That.

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This I I may always struggle
with attractions toward the same

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sex, but do I have to hate
myself into holiness?

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Or can I allow this savior to
carry them with me to the cross

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daily?
And she taught me how to do the

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latter, was to take those daily
to the cross and not hate them

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into submission, but surrender
them because Jesus is worth it.

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So that process Jonathan Edwards
I've actually never read the

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whole sermon, but the title of
the sermon is good enough to

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just quote and he talks.
The title of sermon was the

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expulsive.
Power of a new affection.

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And that isn't Yeah, right,
Jonathan Edwards.

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Leave it to leave it to him.
But the the premise is when

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we've discover a greater love.
It has this power to expel what

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isn't as rich and as lasting and
as powerful.

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And as much as there was some
good aspects, I'm never going to

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demonize, you know, Same sex
relationships.

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Do I think they're sinful?
Yes.

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But is is it like Satan worship
head to toe?

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No.
So as much as there was some

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good aspects to know, what's
even better and greater than any

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of the things we run to that are
not Jesus, to satisfy this hole

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in our heart to know what's
better is Jesus himself.

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And and in that dying and rising
with him, man, that intimacy

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beats every other intimacy.
And so that expelled.

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It didn't make me straight, but
it empowered me to daily die to

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self, which is what I'm still
doing today.

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So now I'm married to a guy.
And it wasn't like I did that

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process with my counselor and
then all of a sudden I was

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straight.
That's not true.

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I really just put my.
Life my whole life into Jesus

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hands and he put back in my
hands, he said.

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Hey Lori, not everyone liked me.
He said it to me, he said.

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The mode I want you to do, the
mission to make disciples is as

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a married woman.
And so he had one guy connect to

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my heart, not all men, one guy.
And so that's that's how I'm

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able to do.
This marriage thing is daily

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death to self to all my idols.
Running after Jesus and soaking

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in his love and then loving
Matt, my husband and kids is

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just fruit of receiving love
from Jesus.

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Well.
I love the redemption that has

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come from your story and I love
how you just normalize it that

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that is something every Christ
follower has to do.

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We all have to die to self and
die to the different idols that

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try to capture our hearts
affection.

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It may not be same sex
attraction.

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It could be something completely
different, but it's still not

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good.
Right.

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Exactly.
Exactly.

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And the more we're able to see
eyeball to eyeball that way, the

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less divides we're going to have
in this space.

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Yes.
So Speaking of divides.

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Let's go.
So Christians right now, a lot

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of them, not every one of them,
are having a huge problem trying

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to figure out.
What to do with these pronouns,

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Basically, and trying to figure
out, should I call someone the

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pronouns that they want me to,
even if that pronoun is not the

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gender that they were born with?
There's a lot of confusion, and

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when we're confused, a lot of
times we're just afraid.

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We're afraid to get it wrong.
We're afraid to.

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Not honor Jesus accidentally.
And there's this term called

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pronoun hospitality.
Could you just define what that

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is?
Yeah, it's practicing

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hospitality by using the
language, the one who's telling

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you their pronouns, they're
saying this is how you can love

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me.
And so like you would if someone

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came to your house and they're
like, hey, I need.

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You know, could like a class of
water and some food and you

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know, hey, it'd be awesome.
I only speak Spanish.

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Can you?
Learn.

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You know, like learn some
Spanish.

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It's speaking the language and
meeting people where they're at

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as a form and an act of
hospitality.

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00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,760
That's my definition.
And is the opposite of that.

227
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,480
I was thinking about this like
what is the opposite of

228
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,880
hospitality?
I guess in in hospitable.

229
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,620
To be in hospitable.
Is the opposite of that pronoun

230
00:14:54,780 --> 00:14:57,380
in hospitality.
Yeah, right.

231
00:14:58,340 --> 00:15:00,660
I don't know what the opposite
is, or what to call it, but

232
00:15:00,660 --> 00:15:04,300
probably yeah.
A lot of Christians worry that

233
00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:09,860
if they agree to call someone by
the pronouns that don't match

234
00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:14,540
their biological gender that it
would be the same as agreeing

235
00:15:14,540 --> 00:15:18,420
with their sin, or they would
somehow be changing themselves

236
00:15:18,420 --> 00:15:22,970
to become like the world.
But that's not exactly.

237
00:15:23,810 --> 00:15:25,770
I mean, even hearing the
definition of pronoun

238
00:15:25,770 --> 00:15:28,330
hospitality, it doesn't sound
exactly like that.

239
00:15:28,330 --> 00:15:30,570
So I would love to hear your
thoughts on that.

240
00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:33,690
Is that the same thing?
Calling someone their preferred

241
00:15:33,690 --> 00:15:35,930
pronouns?
The same thing as affirming

242
00:15:35,930 --> 00:15:38,330
their sin?
Right.

243
00:15:38,330 --> 00:15:40,130
So let's get into what the sin
is.

244
00:15:40,410 --> 00:15:45,330
So first of all, I'm I'm going
to when I'm talking, when we're

245
00:15:45,330 --> 00:15:48,250
having this conversation.
I'm not thinking about little

246
00:15:48,250 --> 00:15:50,970
kids.
That's a whole other ball game.

247
00:15:51,490 --> 00:15:57,530
If my 4-6 or eight-year old was
like mom, I'm a boy or girl like

248
00:15:57,530 --> 00:16:00,930
the opposite of what they are.
I would take them to therapy and

249
00:16:00,930 --> 00:16:05,090
have someone help walk alongside
them kindly and help them

250
00:16:05,090 --> 00:16:06,530
understand what's going on
inside.

251
00:16:06,530 --> 00:16:10,730
But I would have a really hard
time calling them an opposite

252
00:16:11,130 --> 00:16:15,210
gender this young because I
think it's 90%.

253
00:16:15,210 --> 00:16:18,250
Maybe it's 80% at this point of
people who struggle with.

254
00:16:18,830 --> 00:16:23,550
Gender dysphoria, which I'll get
into that in a second, 90% was

255
00:16:23,550 --> 00:16:26,790
the last stat I saw grow out of
it by age 25.

256
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:30,630
So when we're having this
conversation, I'm not thinking

257
00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:33,590
about little kids and I'm not
necessarily thinking of kids

258
00:16:33,630 --> 00:16:39,310
over the age of 25.
I'm thinking of maybe 16/17/18

259
00:16:39,310 --> 00:16:43,750
year olds on up because I really
think to have people transition

260
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:48,730
at a young age or.
Even use the pronoun hospitality

261
00:16:48,730 --> 00:16:50,810
at a young age is damaging to
their psyche.

262
00:16:51,050 --> 00:16:54,490
So that I'm going to say that
now you know, you said is it

263
00:16:54,490 --> 00:16:56,490
agreeing with the sin?
Let's talk about what the sin

264
00:16:56,490 --> 00:16:58,410
is.
As we're looking at upper

265
00:16:58,410 --> 00:17:02,650
teenage to hire, I mentioned the
words gender dysphoria.

266
00:17:02,650 --> 00:17:07,050
Gender dysphoria is real.
It's a very small percentage of

267
00:17:07,050 --> 00:17:09,930
the population, but who knows,
maybe it's higher than what the

268
00:17:09,930 --> 00:17:13,010
DSM and that's like what
therapists use to diagnose

269
00:17:13,010 --> 00:17:16,240
people.
I think it's like .004% of the

270
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,760
population has it, but I I
wouldn't be shocked if it's

271
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,319
maybe around 2% now, just with
the prevalence and the questions

272
00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:27,400
and social media.
And I'm not blaming them for

273
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,520
causing this, but I do think
social distancing of many

274
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,520
varieties has damaged people's
minds and hearts and has hurt

275
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,040
people.
It's really hurt people so small

276
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:40,980
percent.
People have something called

277
00:17:40,980 --> 00:17:45,460
gender dysphoria, which is a
genuine debilitating wrestling

278
00:17:45,820 --> 00:17:49,500
with gender their sense of who
they are as male and female and

279
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:52,300
their bodies.
They look in a mirror and

280
00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:54,900
there's like.
They're shaking like it just

281
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:59,300
doesn't match.
And that, dear listeners, is not

282
00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:02,060
a sin.
That's like calling people who

283
00:18:02,060 --> 00:18:06,180
struggle with anxiety or intense
anxiety, intense depression,

284
00:18:06,180 --> 00:18:09,260
intense mental health issues as
a sin.

285
00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:12,270
Not a sin to struggle
internally.

286
00:18:13,310 --> 00:18:19,630
Where I wrestle and this is
Gray, is where does it become

287
00:18:19,630 --> 00:18:21,630
sin.
So let's say they wrestling with

288
00:18:21,630 --> 00:18:25,230
this genuine dysphoria.
Now let's say there's people who

289
00:18:25,230 --> 00:18:27,670
have it diagnosable.
And then there's a larger

290
00:18:27,670 --> 00:18:30,430
percent of people, which we see
that a lot, middle schoolers,

291
00:18:30,430 --> 00:18:33,430
high schoolers, a lot of people
identifying with the opposite

292
00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:36,870
sex.
They're let's say that they they

293
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:40,590
start dressing differently or
exactly want to change their

294
00:18:40,590 --> 00:18:43,590
pronouns.
Where does it become sin?

295
00:18:45,790 --> 00:18:48,750
That's a question, isn't it?
That is quite a.

296
00:18:50,670 --> 00:18:57,110
Question because how do you?
Define culture male and female

297
00:18:57,110 --> 00:19:03,150
clothing across the globe.
How do you define what it means

298
00:19:03,150 --> 00:19:07,780
to act male and female?
Across all cultures of all time,

299
00:19:08,140 --> 00:19:10,420
how do you?
Even find a difference between

300
00:19:10,420 --> 00:19:13,020
male and female.
Biblically, I I would challenge

301
00:19:13,020 --> 00:19:15,860
listeners outside of marriage
roles.

302
00:19:16,620 --> 00:19:21,140
It's tricky.
So I'm not saying there isn't a

303
00:19:21,140 --> 00:19:23,420
sin line.
I'm just saying let's consider

304
00:19:23,420 --> 00:19:25,580
it's maybe trickier than we
think.

305
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:29,260
OK, here we go.
Now you're asking specifically

306
00:19:29,260 --> 00:19:32,060
about pronouns to use someone's
opposite pronouns.

307
00:19:32,180 --> 00:19:34,620
Am I agreeing with?
Their.

308
00:19:35,050 --> 00:19:41,290
Even mental illness or they're
stepping towards sin.

309
00:19:41,850 --> 00:19:45,250
This is where this is my
personal wrestling.

310
00:19:45,290 --> 00:19:49,490
With where I tend to see a more
clear sin line is when people

311
00:19:49,490 --> 00:19:53,010
start taking hormones to
transition, when people start

312
00:19:53,690 --> 00:19:58,210
surgically changing their body.
I mentioned this earlier is I

313
00:19:58,210 --> 00:20:01,690
think, my friends.
I have friends who wrestle with

314
00:20:01,690 --> 00:20:04,010
gender dysphoria.
It's genuine.

315
00:20:05,290 --> 00:20:10,810
I think the same God who can
help me with my genuine

316
00:20:10,810 --> 00:20:14,770
wrestling with same sex, desires
and attraction which can ebb and

317
00:20:14,770 --> 00:20:16,410
flow.
And I've got other sin issues

318
00:20:16,410 --> 00:20:18,410
too.
Don't worry, I work, I have lots

319
00:20:18,410 --> 00:20:24,130
of issues.
But is it possible that the same

320
00:20:24,130 --> 00:20:30,770
God who comes next to me and
empowers me to daily die to self

321
00:20:31,570 --> 00:20:34,110
and to?
Wrestle with him.

322
00:20:35,070 --> 00:20:39,190
Could that same empowering God
who created the heavens of the

323
00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:42,630
earth come alongside my friends
who wrestle with gender and

324
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:46,950
empower them not to take
hormones and not to transition?

325
00:20:47,150 --> 00:20:50,430
Does the same God do that for
gender people wrestling with

326
00:20:50,430 --> 00:20:53,910
gender?
I would say yeah, because I've

327
00:20:53,910 --> 00:20:59,470
seen it and I have friends whom
I've asked that question of as I

328
00:20:59,470 --> 00:21:01,830
was, they were wrestling with
transitioning.

329
00:21:02,660 --> 00:21:07,220
And God has come alongside them
and he's made them really

330
00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:14,580
beautiful and strong.
So that's a pronoun.

331
00:21:14,580 --> 00:21:19,420
So if that's the ideal, I think
for people who are

332
00:21:19,420 --> 00:21:24,540
transitioning, I would say
that's edging towards sin

333
00:21:24,540 --> 00:21:29,940
because you are rejecting the
body that God made it.

334
00:21:29,940 --> 00:21:32,140
You're you're saying this isn't
good.

335
00:21:32,660 --> 00:21:36,260
And I think in this I would
encourage people who have maybe

336
00:21:36,260 --> 00:21:38,740
some pushback to what I'm.
Saying because I cannot get into

337
00:21:38,740 --> 00:21:41,260
all the nuances of it and we're
already getting into a lot of

338
00:21:41,260 --> 00:21:46,620
them, is to read the book
embodied by Preston Sprinkle if

339
00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:49,700
you want to get into his
thoughts on this, which are are

340
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:52,500
similar to mine, but he's going
to get into more of the the

341
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:55,460
science of it and and the
theological aspect of.

342
00:21:56,060 --> 00:22:00,660
Do our bodies tell us who they
are or not, or can we just

343
00:22:00,660 --> 00:22:02,380
reject them outright?
OK.

344
00:22:03,980 --> 00:22:07,900
So am I agreeing with sin to use
someone's preferred pronouns?

345
00:22:10,140 --> 00:22:12,940
I have a lot of empathy for
those of you who see it that

346
00:22:12,940 --> 00:22:14,340
way.
I used to.

347
00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:17,260
Be more black and white here and
be like, just use the pronouns.

348
00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:24,020
I'm just more forthright, but I
have empathy for people who are

349
00:22:24,020 --> 00:22:27,300
really wrestling.
And you know, I have a friend

350
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:29,280
who's.
I've walked with for a lot of

351
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,640
years and is now transitioning
and it just came to a head

352
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,880
recently where I'm like, this is
really hard, so I have more

353
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,120
empathy.
I would encourage if hospitality

354
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:46,280
feels like too fluffy of a word,
I would encourage us instead to

355
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,640
have a missional mindset, so if
you were to go to a foreign

356
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,360
country and didn't speak the
language.

357
00:22:56,380 --> 00:23:00,060
And didn't know the culture and
the customs before you went to

358
00:23:00,060 --> 00:23:03,860
the other country to let's say
you're going as a missionary.

359
00:23:04,980 --> 00:23:09,020
You would want to learn the
language and the customs and the

360
00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:13,740
culture in order to earn the
relational equity for your

361
00:23:14,180 --> 00:23:19,860
gospel message to be heard.
So pronoun hospitality feels a

362
00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:23,620
little bit too liberal.
Left wing, whatever.

363
00:23:24,380 --> 00:23:27,860
Which I hate that we have to
assign political ideology to all

364
00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:31,860
of this.
If it does, can you think of

365
00:23:31,860 --> 00:23:36,060
yourself instead of the
missionary, using the language

366
00:23:36,380 --> 00:23:40,940
of the person you're talking to
in order to earn the relational

367
00:23:41,020 --> 00:23:44,700
equity for the gospel message to
be heard?

368
00:23:46,540 --> 00:23:50,380
That's what I would encourage,
and I don't see that as sinful.

369
00:23:51,380 --> 00:23:55,870
I see it as.
Missional.

370
00:23:58,910 --> 00:24:01,910
Yeah, I would say that what
you're saying makes a lot of

371
00:24:01,910 --> 00:24:05,790
sense, because let's say you
work with someone who said you

372
00:24:05,790 --> 00:24:07,950
call me by these specific
pronouns.

373
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:13,550
If you are the only person
refusing to abide by that, they

374
00:24:13,550 --> 00:24:18,270
may just know you as the person
who doesn't like them or the

375
00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:21,150
person who they don't like to be
around at all, you know?

376
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:22,700
Right.
Right.

377
00:24:22,740 --> 00:24:25,460
And why would they hear your
Gospels message, which we're

378
00:24:25,460 --> 00:24:30,420
supposed to preach the gospel to
all nations if you're refusing

379
00:24:30,420 --> 00:24:34,780
to meet them where they're at?
That is a great point.

380
00:24:34,780 --> 00:24:36,900
Thank you for getting into the
nittygritty.

381
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:38,700
I know there's Even so much
more.

382
00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:43,180
So much more, but just go ahead.
I just impressed how you got

383
00:24:43,180 --> 00:24:46,420
into the nittygritty and stayed
on track with the same question.

384
00:24:49,060 --> 00:24:51,420
Comes from pot, Years of
podcasting.

385
00:24:53,460 --> 00:24:59,260
So let's say there are people
around you, and I respect and

386
00:24:59,660 --> 00:25:04,980
believe your answers so much
because you do walk with people

387
00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:07,060
practically who are dealing with
this.

388
00:25:07,380 --> 00:25:10,780
And sometimes we can.
If we don't have someone like

389
00:25:10,780 --> 00:25:13,660
that in our own lives, we can
just get into our heads and say

390
00:25:13,660 --> 00:25:15,260
it's such a black and white
answer.

391
00:25:15,340 --> 00:25:17,500
But then you meet someone who's
going through that and you're

392
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:19,310
like.
Oh, maybe it's not.

393
00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:26,270
So how do you balance respecting
people's decisions to transition

394
00:25:26,270 --> 00:25:31,790
or to wrestle with samesex
attraction, or just completely

395
00:25:31,790 --> 00:25:37,430
dive into samesex attraction,
not trying to wrestle at all?

396
00:25:37,990 --> 00:25:41,750
How do you balance respecting
that decision while not

397
00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:47,550
encouraging them in it?
So I'm hoping that this is.

398
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,880
A friend, and this is like you
said, it's not just theoretical.

399
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:59,640
So let's say you have a friend,
like I have a friend who was

400
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,800
wrestling and is now
transitioning.

401
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:13,640
How do you respect them?
While not encouraging, well, how

402
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:20,580
I did it with this friend is.
I did not go to I I was

403
00:26:20,580 --> 00:26:22,740
genuinely curious.
How did you come about this

404
00:26:22,740 --> 00:26:25,820
decision?
Can I hear your the story even

405
00:26:25,820 --> 00:26:28,580
though this is my friend and and
some people listening.

406
00:26:28,580 --> 00:26:31,260
This might be your son or your
daughter like go and genuinely

407
00:26:31,260 --> 00:26:34,100
curious.
Can you help me understand and

408
00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:39,740
the world when it comes.
To transitioning or finding

409
00:26:39,820 --> 00:26:42,420
their person, etcetera.
Who's of the same sex?

410
00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:45,540
The world is very celebratory of
that.

411
00:26:46,300 --> 00:26:51,420
And even though I am pro
hospitality, promissional, pro

412
00:26:51,780 --> 00:26:55,860
love people where they're at,
I'm not going to celebrate

413
00:26:56,140 --> 00:27:03,020
people walking out of alignment
with God's path of flourishing.

414
00:27:04,180 --> 00:27:05,740
Do you notice?
How I even said that though I

415
00:27:05,740 --> 00:27:06,940
wasn't like.
Just so bang the.

416
00:27:06,940 --> 00:27:10,020
Bible and being a bad, bad
Sinner, you hear how?

417
00:27:10,650 --> 00:27:15,330
I'm always redoing it because I
think we have emphasized sin,

418
00:27:15,330 --> 00:27:19,930
which I'm not afraid to say sin,
but we have to see God's plan

419
00:27:19,930 --> 00:27:24,010
for the world as hit the plan of
path of flourishing.

420
00:27:24,170 --> 00:27:28,890
So if I really believe that, if
I believe God's way is the way

421
00:27:28,890 --> 00:27:32,850
to flourish, then when I meet my
friends who are.

422
00:27:33,210 --> 00:27:36,490
Saying no to that, and they're
saying this other way, is the

423
00:27:36,490 --> 00:27:39,330
path of flourishing.
I'm going to bring an emotion to

424
00:27:39,330 --> 00:27:43,250
that conversation That's not
rage, but it is going to be

425
00:27:43,250 --> 00:27:47,010
grief.
I'm going to be curious and I'm

426
00:27:47,010 --> 00:27:50,370
going to be sad.
Not like tears dripping down my

427
00:27:50,370 --> 00:27:52,450
face or they have to like,
caretaking me.

428
00:27:52,690 --> 00:27:56,690
But what I'm going to say, I
said to one of my friends who's

429
00:27:56,690 --> 00:27:59,930
like, here's what I believe now,
here's what's going on, I'm

430
00:27:59,930 --> 00:28:02,330
going to transition.
And I said to them.

431
00:28:04,420 --> 00:28:08,260
So after about an hour of
listening, I said So it seems

432
00:28:08,260 --> 00:28:13,340
like we are on different paths
theologically, and I could see

433
00:28:13,620 --> 00:28:16,980
they felt sad about that.
They wanted me to be both

434
00:28:16,980 --> 00:28:20,300
excited or to be like,
everything's fine, we can all

435
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:23,620
believe our own thing.
But I wanted to be clear.

436
00:28:23,620 --> 00:28:25,860
I was like, no, it seems like
we're on different paths

437
00:28:25,860 --> 00:28:28,460
theologically.
And then I was quiet.

438
00:28:28,660 --> 00:28:32,580
I didn't say try and fix it.
I didn't try and change this

439
00:28:32,580 --> 00:28:37,940
person's mind necessarily.
I did in my question asking kind

440
00:28:37,940 --> 00:28:43,540
of poke some theological holes
in like so this leads to this

441
00:28:43,540 --> 00:28:48,180
like just just pointed it out.
But that was my I love you.

442
00:28:49,420 --> 00:28:52,900
We're not on the same path
theologically now because that

443
00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:56,740
was a hard sentence to say.
I still.

444
00:28:56,740 --> 00:28:59,500
Like.
This person's posts.

445
00:29:01,970 --> 00:29:06,930
I don't like the ones and by
like click like when they, you

446
00:29:06,930 --> 00:29:10,050
know are like, I'm so glad I'm
transitioning and here's this I

447
00:29:10,050 --> 00:29:14,410
can't like that but I can like
ones that are like here's my dog

448
00:29:14,410 --> 00:29:17,970
and here's my friend and I'm
feeling happy like and I can

449
00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:22,250
keep reaching out with how are
you, but I'm not going to be

450
00:29:22,250 --> 00:29:29,650
jumping up and down nor am I
going to try and sway them right

451
00:29:29,650 --> 00:29:31,450
now.
I'm gonna try and be a

452
00:29:31,450 --> 00:29:36,490
consistent presence of I Love
you and I also disagree with

453
00:29:36,490 --> 00:29:40,850
you.
It's an art, not a science,

454
00:29:41,290 --> 00:29:42,050
right?
Right.

455
00:29:42,770 --> 00:29:47,370
And I'm also assuming and
hearing that you're still in

456
00:29:47,370 --> 00:29:50,890
this person's life that that
conversation was not the end of

457
00:29:50,890 --> 00:29:54,970
your friendship or or something
that you're like, well, here

458
00:29:54,970 --> 00:29:58,890
comes the line in the sand and I
I won't see you as often anymore

459
00:29:58,890 --> 00:30:02,510
or something like that.
Well, I will say and and maybe

460
00:30:02,510 --> 00:30:05,430
I'm wrong here, but the
relationship has changed.

461
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:07,670
Like we have not seen each other
the same amount.

462
00:30:08,110 --> 00:30:12,110
And I think part of me is
waiting for the euphoria of this

463
00:30:12,110 --> 00:30:18,550
new decision to maybe wear off
like God does his biggest work

464
00:30:18,550 --> 00:30:22,550
in suffering.
So if someone is like 10 out of

465
00:30:22,550 --> 00:30:26,630
10, this is.
My best choice ever.

466
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:29,230
I'm going to keep trying to be
in their life because I know

467
00:30:29,230 --> 00:30:32,910
that the middle of the night
comes, the 2:00 AM doubt comes

468
00:30:32,910 --> 00:30:35,590
for all of us.
So I still want to be in their

469
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:36,310
life.
But I'm.

470
00:30:36,310 --> 00:30:45,030
I may be waiting to see.
Not if this isn't going to

471
00:30:45,030 --> 00:30:50,390
satisfy, but when this doesn't
satisfy and I'm not going to

472
00:30:50,390 --> 00:30:52,390
swoop in with a haha.
I told you so.

473
00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:56,290
But I pray.
I can be in their life so that

474
00:30:56,290 --> 00:30:59,490
when this doesn't scratch the
itch of their heart because

475
00:30:59,490 --> 00:31:04,970
nothing does except Jesus.
That's a fact we never have to

476
00:31:04,970 --> 00:31:08,570
worry that stuff of the world is
going to satisfy.

477
00:31:08,570 --> 00:31:12,450
It won't.
So I just have to kind of wait

478
00:31:12,610 --> 00:31:18,090
until it doesn't satisfy and see
if I still have the relational

479
00:31:18,090 --> 00:31:22,790
equity to.
Walk them through.

480
00:31:22,790 --> 00:31:28,030
Just seeing Jesus is the answer,
just like someone walked me

481
00:31:28,030 --> 00:31:31,150
through that.
That's.

482
00:31:31,150 --> 00:31:34,030
So good you don't want to lose
that relational equity in the in

483
00:31:34,030 --> 00:31:35,870
between time.
Right.

484
00:31:36,030 --> 00:31:40,190
On that high of I think I've got
this right and this is going to

485
00:31:40,190 --> 00:31:44,150
fulfill my desires.
Right, right.

486
00:31:45,510 --> 00:31:49,000
Well, someone.
May be listening and have this

487
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,240
certain situation about to say,
but I recognize that not

488
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,480
everyone's going to have this
exact situation.

489
00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,600
But if there is someone who is
not showing respect, kindness,

490
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:06,800
honor towards a believer because
of these beliefs about what God

491
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,440
says is human flourishing, how
can they show honor and respect

492
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,160
when that is just not
reciprocated?

493
00:32:15,090 --> 00:32:19,570
Oh yeah, baby.
This is where this is where the

494
00:32:19,570 --> 00:32:22,650
rubber meets the road, friends.
This is why we got to be reading

495
00:32:22,650 --> 00:32:25,010
first and second, Timothy.
We got to be reading

496
00:32:25,010 --> 00:32:27,050
Philippians, Colossians,
Galatians.

497
00:32:27,050 --> 00:32:32,170
Like when I am getting kicked,
when I am being the most

498
00:32:32,170 --> 00:32:37,410
gracious and loving and people
are like you are a Nazi Symp to

499
00:32:37,410 --> 00:32:42,090
me for simply believing what you
believe you are causing.

500
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,760
L GB TQ people to kill
themselves.

501
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,680
It is your fault, right?
That's pretty intense.

502
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,840
We do not wage war like the
world wages war.

503
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,160
We are kind and gracious.
We are slow to get angry and

504
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:06,360
abounding in love like God.
We are like look, I have to put

505
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,480
second.
Timothy on repeat.

506
00:33:09,380 --> 00:33:13,940
Because of how Paul exhorts
Timothy to be strong in the

507
00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:18,260
faith and kind and loving.
Look at Jesus.

508
00:33:18,340 --> 00:33:23,940
So this is where Christians get
to look like Christ.

509
00:33:24,020 --> 00:33:26,780
We do not wage war the way the
world does.

510
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:31,220
We do not fight fire with fire.
We are strong.

511
00:33:31,540 --> 00:33:35,100
We don't change, but we do not
yell back.

512
00:33:35,740 --> 00:33:38,100
That is so good, I'm going to
say.

513
00:33:38,570 --> 00:33:44,050
So hard to do and also so good.
Yes, but this is like, this is

514
00:33:44,090 --> 00:33:46,850
OG stuff, guys.
This is what we first learned in

515
00:33:46,850 --> 00:33:49,290
Sunday school is love your
neighbor.

516
00:33:49,890 --> 00:33:53,370
Do good to those who hate you.
Pray for those who spitefully

517
00:33:53,370 --> 00:33:56,770
use you like those are this is
where we get to actually

518
00:33:56,770 --> 00:33:58,970
practice that.
Because I'll have people, well,

519
00:33:58,970 --> 00:34:02,850
they're yelling at me and I'm
like, suck it up grandma, like

520
00:34:02,850 --> 00:34:03,770
this.
Is this is?

521
00:34:04,210 --> 00:34:10,400
That's called being a Christian.
Is we do not fight back.

522
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,560
We don't.
Now that doesn't mean and I have

523
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:20,679
a brotherinlaw who is in DC and
he is lobbying for Christians to

524
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,719
have space at the table when it
comes to government things.

525
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:30,840
But he's doing it winsomely and
kind and not yelling which love,

526
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:36,130
that's love is patient, kind.
So I would say this is very, I

527
00:34:36,130 --> 00:34:38,010
love that's why I was going so
excited when you asked the

528
00:34:38,010 --> 00:34:42,090
question is this is this is
where we get to look different

529
00:34:42,730 --> 00:34:49,250
and we get to look like Christ.
You feel like no one would say

530
00:34:49,250 --> 00:34:54,409
this out loud, but we almost
feel like sometimes, yes, of

531
00:34:54,409 --> 00:34:59,650
course, of course I fully agree.
But this issue is, you know, I

532
00:34:59,650 --> 00:35:02,810
have to get my point across.
I have to make sure they know.

533
00:35:03,210 --> 00:35:07,370
And you use this term on our
last episode you said that the

534
00:35:07,370 --> 00:35:09,650
term truth daggers and just.
Yeah.

535
00:35:10,050 --> 00:35:11,970
I loved that, but it's like.
Yeah.

536
00:35:12,130 --> 00:35:15,810
The truth in an unkind way, of
course we don't want to use

537
00:35:15,810 --> 00:35:18,410
truth daggers with anyone.
No stabbing.

538
00:35:19,330 --> 00:35:25,410
But how do we be
uncompromisingly truthful and

539
00:35:25,410 --> 00:35:30,690
loving at the same time?
I mean the first thing I can say

540
00:35:31,530 --> 00:35:33,640
is.
And I don't I.

541
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,680
Always wrestle with which one to
say first.

542
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:43,760
Is, I would say, study this.
Topic and not only from certain

543
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:49,000
political stances, but get a
variety of resources so that

544
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,520
when you're engaging, you're
like you.

545
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,720
Understand what gender does for
you is that you the most winsome

546
00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:56,960
people who can argue in this
space.

547
00:35:58,070 --> 00:36:02,710
Can argue from their opponent's
viewpoint and their opponent

548
00:36:02,710 --> 00:36:05,910
would agree with them.
Like you could say this is what

549
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:08,950
this is what I hear you believe,
you believe and the opponent

550
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:10,470
would be like.
Yep, that is what I believe.

551
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:14,910
So understand the the
conversation so much that you

552
00:36:14,910 --> 00:36:16,830
can.
Articulate the you're opposing

553
00:36:16,830 --> 00:36:21,110
side with such winsomeness and
clarity and generosity that they

554
00:36:21,110 --> 00:36:24,510
would agree with your view of
them that you're not creating

555
00:36:24,510 --> 00:36:26,110
straw men, you're not
demonizing.

556
00:36:26,670 --> 00:36:31,510
But then also understand your
own side so winsomely that it's

557
00:36:32,430 --> 00:36:35,150
it's as much as it's possible
to.

558
00:36:35,270 --> 00:36:38,830
It's irrefutable.
I would start again with Center

559
00:36:38,830 --> 00:36:40,830
for faith.com is a good place to
go.

560
00:36:40,830 --> 00:36:44,390
They'll point you in some good
resources, but there's many

561
00:36:44,390 --> 00:36:47,750
other Sam Alberry.
I mean, Jackie L Perry, she's

562
00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:49,750
written on this song, but it
doesn't maybe have the

563
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:54,070
theological arguments that could
stand up to a lot of different

564
00:36:54,070 --> 00:36:55,510
spaces.
So anyway, there's a lot of

565
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:59,080
people.
So first study and then this is

566
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,640
where I wrestle.
Should this be number one or

567
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,000
two?
But the second would be pray.

568
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,720
Take what you've studied and
maybe as you're studying, pray

569
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:11,040
and say God, my heart is
frustrated about this because

570
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,120
this conversation stirs stuff.
Within our own hearts.

571
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,160
And maybe it's childhood stuff,
Maybe it's your own.

572
00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:20,390
You know, homophobia, maybe it I
don't.

573
00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:23,190
Whatever it is, it just stirs
stuff in our hearts.

574
00:37:23,230 --> 00:37:27,230
And I would encourage us all to
take whatever that emotion is

575
00:37:27,230 --> 00:37:29,630
and take it to the Lord.
My God, what's this stirring up

576
00:37:29,630 --> 00:37:31,510
in me?
Why am I so mad?

577
00:37:32,110 --> 00:37:35,190
And if you find yourself very
angry underneath that is often.

578
00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:41,030
Fear or sorrow, I would
encourage us to lean in there as

579
00:37:41,030 --> 00:37:44,510
opposed to our rage.
So pray.

580
00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:50,600
And then?
Go to the Lord and say, God, how

581
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,400
do you want me to engage this
space?

582
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,280
And for me how he wants me?
To do is.

583
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,360
In real one-on-one conversations
with people, he has me trying to

584
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:06,200
quit the church on stages, but
the Spirit regularly convicts me

585
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:10,480
that I me, who does this on the
regs.

586
00:38:11,230 --> 00:38:14,830
I don't get to just talk about
this theoretically, even though

587
00:38:14,830 --> 00:38:17,790
it's a part of my story, even
though I have L GB T people in

588
00:38:17,790 --> 00:38:21,590
my life that I'm walking with
regularly, even though I've

589
00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:24,910
studied this.
The spirit at I'm just telling

590
00:38:24,910 --> 00:38:28,510
you how he convicts me over and
over is he keeps pinpricking me

591
00:38:28,510 --> 00:38:33,110
and saying Lori, the harvest is
plenty and the workers are few.

592
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:35,750
Don't just talk about this on a
stage.

593
00:38:35,750 --> 00:38:40,310
You need to get in the trenches,
and you need to.

594
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:43,460
Talk with people and help win
them to Christ.

595
00:38:44,220 --> 00:38:47,700
So I'm not about to say that
that's what God's telling you

596
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:52,660
all to do, but truth daggers are
not going to be are often

597
00:38:52,660 --> 00:38:55,900
stabbed on Facebook statuses.
And.

598
00:38:57,020 --> 00:39:00,140
Platforms where you're not
actually interacting with

599
00:39:00,140 --> 00:39:03,340
humans.
So I would just say if the

600
00:39:03,340 --> 00:39:08,500
Spirit's convicting me, who is
on platforms talking about this?

601
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,800
I'm curious if he's also wanting
to talk to more people who are

602
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:19,080
willing to have ears to hear,
hearts to learn, or hearts to

603
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:25,240
become soft and minds to learn.
To really talk with L GB T

604
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:30,960
people about how Jesus is worth
giving up everything for.

605
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:36,640
And if you really get face to
face, eyeball to eyeball, toe to

606
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,290
toe on the same ground as.
L GB T people, you're not going

607
00:39:41,290 --> 00:39:44,890
to want to stab them with truth.
You're going to want to guide

608
00:39:44,890 --> 00:39:50,530
them toward truth.
I love that.

609
00:39:50,530 --> 00:39:53,130
That makes sense, yes.
Makes perfect sense.

610
00:39:53,130 --> 00:39:57,970
And that's why anger is a
secondary emotion, that there's

611
00:39:57,970 --> 00:40:01,730
always something under it.
It's never just pure anger.

612
00:40:02,410 --> 00:40:05,690
No, Unless you're God.
It's just too hard for us to

613
00:40:05,850 --> 00:40:11,300
handle it right.
I have two listener Q&A

614
00:40:11,300 --> 00:40:13,500
questions.
I'm really excited to

615
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:16,860
incorporate this into our
episode, but I have two

616
00:40:16,860 --> 00:40:20,620
questions that people have asked
me that they wanted to ask you.

617
00:40:20,620 --> 00:40:25,180
So it's just so wonderful.
But I'm going to give you these

618
00:40:25,180 --> 00:40:29,540
two situations and you can just
say what you would advise should

619
00:40:29,780 --> 00:40:32,460
encourage that person to do or
what what you would do

620
00:40:32,460 --> 00:40:37,560
specifically the first one.
Is someone who works at a

621
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:44,120
daycare and one day in daycare,
you know, end of June, of

622
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,720
course, because that's Pride
Month is a Pride celebration day

623
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,600
and these are for little kids
daycare, you know, nursery

624
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:59,480
through first or second grade.
So does that person show up?

625
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,200
What do they do?
Do they show up and not

626
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,040
celebrate?
How would they handle that?

627
00:41:05,740 --> 00:41:07,780
Yeah.
So I'd be curious.

628
00:41:08,580 --> 00:41:15,540
Because this is, this is all an.
Art and it's I have friends who

629
00:41:15,540 --> 00:41:20,540
identify as L GB TQ and I can
fall under that, but my my

630
00:41:20,540 --> 00:41:24,700
viewing myself as L GB TQ is is
not seeing it as something to

631
00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:28,140
celebrate, but seeing as
something God is allowed in me

632
00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:33,540
in order to access, well,
allowed in me A.

633
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,480
To experience more of the
strength of God and my weakness

634
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:43,560
and B allows me access into
cultural spaces I wouldn't

635
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:49,480
otherwise have access to.
So L GB TQ is a huge umbrella

636
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:56,520
that can mean affirmation of all
the things, or it can mean this

637
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,600
is how God has allowed me to be
weak in order for him to be

638
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,400
strong through me.
Does that make sense?

639
00:42:03,970 --> 00:42:12,890
So if I was there, I'd be like I
want all these kids of writing

640
00:42:12,930 --> 00:42:18,730
variety of ages to know that God
loves them, no matter how He has

641
00:42:18,850 --> 00:42:23,570
allowed not made them weak,
allowed them to be weak for

642
00:42:23,570 --> 00:42:26,010
their.
Good and his glory so I just.

643
00:42:26,010 --> 00:42:28,090
Have to do a lot of reframe in
my head.

644
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,920
As far as yes, I want them to be
able to come out in order to be

645
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,680
loved where they're at and to
know the power of Jesus and

646
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:45,640
their weakness.
So I would go in order to learn

647
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,200
how to be a safe place, not only
for people to share their

648
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,200
weakness, even though the world
is not calling it weakness.

649
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,960
So.
That in their weakness I can

650
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:03,320
help them.
Maybe learn the power of God in

651
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:08,840
that space of weakness.
So I would go, I would just have

652
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,560
to do a reframe.
I would be like, I'm not going

653
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,160
to be like, yay, everyone gets
to find their partner in

654
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,360
transition.
I'd be like, yeah, you're you're

655
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,360
free to be messy.
That's how I would.

656
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,720
See it?
I wouldn't say it, but that's

657
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:28,160
how I would see it is.
I'm going to go in order to.

658
00:43:29,150 --> 00:43:32,230
Createspace to allow people to
be messy.

659
00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:39,390
Now what I just.
Said is a lot of tricky Gray

660
00:43:39,390 --> 00:43:45,190
area, and if L GB TQ has been
darkness evil in your mind this

661
00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:46,590
is.
That's going to sound really

662
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:53,710
tricky what I said, but if we
can see L GB TQ as weakness,

663
00:43:53,710 --> 00:43:57,430
God's God allows in us in order
for him to be strong.

664
00:43:58,270 --> 00:44:02,230
And if we could see that spaces,
I want this to be a free place

665
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:12,030
to be broken, even though
they're not calling it

666
00:44:12,030 --> 00:44:13,790
brokenness.
I don't know.

667
00:44:13,790 --> 00:44:15,870
That's kind of cool.
Yeah.

668
00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:18,470
Can I push a little bit more on
that question?

669
00:44:19,110 --> 00:44:20,750
Sure.
OK.

670
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:25,630
In the practicals of showing up
for work on that day, would you?

671
00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:30,500
Help set up all these rainbow
decorations.

672
00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:33,420
Would you, you know, resume work
as normal.

673
00:44:33,420 --> 00:44:37,780
Would you help Lee?
I'm not sure what you know all

674
00:44:37,780 --> 00:44:42,300
entails pride day at a daycare,
but would you help set up and

675
00:44:43,300 --> 00:44:46,020
and carry out any events during
that day?

676
00:44:47,980 --> 00:44:50,460
See.
It would depend on the event.

677
00:44:50,460 --> 00:44:54,300
If it's like let's find you a
girlfriend or let's read about

678
00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:56,770
crossdressing.
I I couldn't.

679
00:44:56,770 --> 00:44:58,770
Do stuff like that, because I
know that there's little kid

680
00:44:58,770 --> 00:45:02,450
books that are like, let's read
about how you're any gender and

681
00:45:02,450 --> 00:45:04,730
how that's good.
That I couldn't do.

682
00:45:05,250 --> 00:45:09,050
What if it was like I would
spend a lot of time in prayer

683
00:45:09,050 --> 00:45:15,130
before because what I just
described is 100% philosophical

684
00:45:15,130 --> 00:45:18,530
flip from how the world.
Sees L GB TQ.

685
00:45:18,810 --> 00:45:21,450
I'm telling you, it's brokenness
and weakness.

686
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,760
That put in God's hands can be
made strength, but that's 100%

687
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,200
different than the world they
see it as.

688
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,240
The raw material is good.
And I'm like.

689
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,840
Eh, it's flawed.
So now, now that's not to say

690
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,720
heterosexuality is 100% good and
gold, you know?

691
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:41,880
So whatever, there's other sins.
But I won't get into that.

692
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:47,520
But I'd be praying before.
Like God, I need your spirit to

693
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:52,520
help emphasize what I believe is
your view on.

694
00:45:53,090 --> 00:45:56,370
L GB T so I'd be.
Praying for that air in the room

695
00:45:57,170 --> 00:46:01,650
and then I would decorate, but I
would again, I would see it like

696
00:46:01,690 --> 00:46:06,050
the church is supposed to be is
a hospital for sinners, a

697
00:46:06,050 --> 00:46:09,410
hospital for the.
Wounded and the hurting and so

698
00:46:09,410 --> 00:46:13,690
I'm like, I'm decorating with.
With the.

699
00:46:13,690 --> 00:46:17,490
Hope that these kids are going
to feel free to be honest,

700
00:46:17,490 --> 00:46:21,250
because that's a good thing to
be open about their brokenness.

701
00:46:22,850 --> 00:46:24,570
But that's probably where I
would leave it is.

702
00:46:24,570 --> 00:46:30,210
I would want to hear stories and
hear their journey, but I would

703
00:46:30,210 --> 00:46:33,930
want to be listening for how and
where I could speak how much

704
00:46:33,930 --> 00:46:36,690
Jesus loves them.
And and that's tricky in a

705
00:46:36,690 --> 00:46:38,570
workplace.
But that's that's about all I

706
00:46:38,570 --> 00:46:40,450
could do.
I think I could decorate and I

707
00:46:40,450 --> 00:46:46,170
would pray and I would never
waver from God helping me from

708
00:46:46,930 --> 00:46:50,890
being like like Daniel and
Babylon like understanding.

709
00:46:50,890 --> 00:46:54,810
Who they are.
In the midst of a world that

710
00:46:54,810 --> 00:47:00,090
sees it differently.
That's a great example of Dan.

711
00:47:00,090 --> 00:47:05,130
It's just a completely different
world and he's like one of, you

712
00:47:05,130 --> 00:47:09,050
know, not that many that agree
with with what God says, so.

713
00:47:10,930 --> 00:47:13,130
Yeah.
And that's that's the.

714
00:47:13,130 --> 00:47:15,170
Grit.
We're going to need guys like

715
00:47:15,170 --> 00:47:18,890
that's that's what's coming.
And we don't need to fortify our

716
00:47:20,130 --> 00:47:25,820
Christian cities.
We need to fortify our hearts to

717
00:47:25,820 --> 00:47:31,580
be winsome in Babylon, I'm going
to quote.

718
00:47:31,580 --> 00:47:32,940
You on that later, That's great.
Yeah.

719
00:47:35,820 --> 00:47:38,620
OK.
The 2nd listener Q&A question,

720
00:47:39,380 --> 00:47:44,940
let's say this person is a an
employer in the corporate world

721
00:47:45,060 --> 00:47:48,100
and one of their employees is
transitioning.

722
00:47:48,390 --> 00:47:50,950
They were a male, then they came
back to work.

723
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:54,110
They are getting surgery, they
are going by new name.

724
00:47:54,670 --> 00:47:57,150
They're now a female as they
say.

725
00:47:58,790 --> 00:48:04,350
And this employer's job is
literally to help support them,

726
00:48:04,350 --> 00:48:10,870
whatever they need in HR terms
and whatever they need to be

727
00:48:11,350 --> 00:48:14,430
changed and paperwork, etcetera,
etcetera.

728
00:48:15,340 --> 00:48:18,580
Their job is to help make this
employee feel supported.

729
00:48:18,940 --> 00:48:22,940
How do they do that without
encouraging this transition?

730
00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:30,020
So this is missionary work.
This is missionary work.

731
00:48:30,020 --> 00:48:33,420
So just see your job and your
life as a missionary.

732
00:48:33,420 --> 00:48:39,700
So if another country was, you
know, pro polygamy, which I know

733
00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:42,300
some people are in our own
country or pro.

734
00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:45,580
I don't know.
Whatever the the equality would

735
00:48:45,580 --> 00:48:49,300
be you would have to help them.
I I just think that this is

736
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:54,580
where Miss Mysiology and
hospitality intersect is do.

737
00:48:54,580 --> 00:48:59,300
You want an image bearer of God
who is clearly wrestling, even

738
00:48:59,300 --> 00:49:01,980
though they're saying they're
living their best life, they're

739
00:49:01,980 --> 00:49:04,820
in pain.
Like, literally.

740
00:49:04,820 --> 00:49:09,860
They couldn't yell silently
louder about how much pain

741
00:49:09,860 --> 00:49:15,820
they're in than to transition.
So your kindness and

742
00:49:15,820 --> 00:49:23,140
graciousness and helping them
transition like it's not your

743
00:49:23,140 --> 00:49:28,580
discomfort like leading.
You don't have to push them into

744
00:49:28,580 --> 00:49:32,460
discomfort because discomfort is
where God is going to meet them

745
00:49:32,860 --> 00:49:36,660
if you try and set it up so
nicely and gently.

746
00:49:37,500 --> 00:49:41,260
Like I just always laugh
because.

747
00:49:43,090 --> 00:49:47,810
And not out loud, but when you
see the L GB T movement, I mean

748
00:49:47,850 --> 00:49:51,490
even 10 years ago it was we want
give us marriage.

749
00:49:51,610 --> 00:49:55,650
They got marriage then eight,
not eight, five years ago, we

750
00:49:55,650 --> 00:49:58,490
need churches.
They have churches and now it's.

751
00:49:58,650 --> 00:50:03,130
We need all churches in every
single person on the planet.

752
00:50:03,630 --> 00:50:07,030
To essentially bow down and
worship me in order for me to be

753
00:50:07,030 --> 00:50:09,190
okay, and that's extreme
obviously.

754
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:13,110
But I need everyone to agree
with me that is even breathing

755
00:50:13,110 --> 00:50:17,110
the same air as me.
And here's what I will say is

756
00:50:19,070 --> 00:50:26,670
that's that never ending fire of
consumptive I need.

757
00:50:26,670 --> 00:50:30,350
More and more and more.
That is what idolatry looks

758
00:50:30,350 --> 00:50:36,320
like.
Is it never satisfies and so for

759
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:41,440
you to make everything as cushy
as possible and they're still

760
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:46,560
going to be dissatisfied is that
dissatisfaction can lead people

761
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,240
to the end of themselves and an
ideal.

762
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,920
I'm not saying that as a
euphemism for suicide.

763
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:56,840
I'm saying the end of their
idolatry life and can help them

764
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:01,200
find Jesus when our idols stop
working.

765
00:51:01,710 --> 00:51:05,670
We reach the end of ourselves
and we say I have everything.

766
00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:08,190
HR took care of me.
I've transitioned.

767
00:51:08,190 --> 00:51:10,950
I have my new ID badge.
Everyone is calling me by my

768
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:14,150
name.
Why am I still still

769
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:17,030
dissatisfied?
It's because.

770
00:51:17,070 --> 00:51:22,590
They need Jesus like I sound
like a a boring gong at this

771
00:51:22,630 --> 00:51:23,070
point.
Like.

772
00:51:23,110 --> 00:51:28,230
It's only Jesus, and so I.
Just think it's funny.

773
00:51:29,530 --> 00:51:34,210
That we can be as hospitable as
possible and people still demand

774
00:51:34,210 --> 00:51:35,730
more.
And I'm like, I'm giving you

775
00:51:35,770 --> 00:51:38,610
everything and all that you're
actually screaming at me about

776
00:51:38,610 --> 00:51:41,490
is that you need Jesus.
So I would say make it as cushy

777
00:51:41,490 --> 00:51:46,330
as possible and wait and earn
the relational equity and your

778
00:51:46,330 --> 00:51:49,650
kindness to be able to have
conversations about the

779
00:51:49,650 --> 00:51:52,810
transition and how it's going.
And then you're going to start

780
00:51:52,810 --> 00:51:56,300
to hear, God probably willing.
How?

781
00:51:56,340 --> 00:51:59,740
It's still not satisfying.
And that is where you have the

782
00:51:59,740 --> 00:52:03,700
opportunity to say how Jesus is
the only thing that satisfies.

783
00:52:05,140 --> 00:52:08,420
Because if we try and do like,
no, you can't get your ID card,

784
00:52:08,420 --> 00:52:09,780
you can't.
Which they're not going to be

785
00:52:09,780 --> 00:52:13,300
legally allowed to do that.
They're going to see that as the

786
00:52:13,340 --> 00:52:16,660
answer to their heart's cry.
But if we give them everything

787
00:52:16,660 --> 00:52:21,180
and they're still still too
satisfied, that's like such a

788
00:52:21,180 --> 00:52:25,360
great indicator for.
Maybe you're looking in the

789
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,360
wrong direction.
Could it be Jesus?

790
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:37,560
That is so true that no matter
how easy the path is to getting,

791
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,480
said Idle.
Once we get it, we're like, so

792
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,240
disappointed.
We expected it.

793
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,960
We expected it to literally set
us up and then we'll be okay.

794
00:52:52,240 --> 00:52:56,210
That's incredible.
Lori, thank you so much for

795
00:52:56,210 --> 00:52:58,610
being the guest for a second
time.

796
00:52:58,610 --> 00:53:03,010
This was unbelievably helpful.
I my hope and prayer is that

797
00:53:03,010 --> 00:53:05,290
this really equips the church as
you're doing.

798
00:53:05,330 --> 00:53:08,130
One-on-one with people.
And then also when you talk to

799
00:53:08,130 --> 00:53:11,290
multitudes of people, but I will
link every resource that you

800
00:53:11,290 --> 00:53:14,690
said in the show notes so that
people have access, that they

801
00:53:14,690 --> 00:53:18,050
can study and learn more.
And then is there any final

802
00:53:18,050 --> 00:53:21,130
encouragement that you just want
people to walk away with before

803
00:53:21,130 --> 00:53:25,590
we end?
Do not despair.

804
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:29,990
Like, if you could see my face
lighting up when you're like,

805
00:53:29,990 --> 00:53:31,790
what if people hate you and push
back?

806
00:53:31,790 --> 00:53:34,270
I'm like, yeah, church.
Or.

807
00:53:34,830 --> 00:53:38,750
What if, like how do we practice
hospitality like that last one

808
00:53:38,750 --> 00:53:40,270
in the HR department?
I'm like you.

809
00:53:40,550 --> 00:53:43,350
Guys.
Give them everything and watch

810
00:53:43,350 --> 00:53:45,990
them still ask for more.
And that's when you're like I

811
00:53:45,990 --> 00:53:48,110
got nothing.
Left I gave you everything.

812
00:53:48,110 --> 00:53:51,630
And you just point to Jesus like
this is such an opportunity to

813
00:53:51,630 --> 00:53:55,460
preach the gospel right now.
This is not I don't got

814
00:53:55,460 --> 00:53:57,220
doomsday.
And I don't think.

815
00:53:57,220 --> 00:53:59,820
Even if it was doomsday.
Tomorrow, Armageddon, whatever

816
00:54:00,220 --> 00:54:03,660
end of the world, like Jesus
would have hope, like he is

817
00:54:03,660 --> 00:54:08,780
tarrying as it says in Peter
first Peter so that more people

818
00:54:08,780 --> 00:54:11,020
come to him.
Let's not batten down the

819
00:54:11,020 --> 00:54:15,660
hatches like this is the time
for us to point to Jesus as our

820
00:54:15,660 --> 00:54:18,420
only hope.
So let's know it in our lives

821
00:54:18,420 --> 00:54:20,340
and let's get more people on
board.

822
00:54:21,060 --> 00:54:21,620
Amen.
Amen.

823
00:54:22,220 --> 00:54:24,770
And Amen.
Thank you so much for being the

824
00:54:24,770 --> 00:54:27,090
guest.
Lori, you are so welcome.

825
00:54:27,090 --> 00:54:28,570
Jenny, thanks for doing what you
do.

826
00:54:28,570 --> 00:54:38,330
It's good work.
Isn't Lori the best?

827
00:54:38,970 --> 00:54:41,970
I loved this conversation with
her, and if you haven't listened

828
00:54:41,970 --> 00:54:45,290
to our first episode that we
recorded, I highly recommend you

829
00:54:45,290 --> 00:54:47,130
go back and listen to that one
as well.

830
00:54:48,450 --> 00:54:50,770
We're going to jump into the
Ministry time at the end of this

831
00:54:50,770 --> 00:54:53,600
episode.
So I encourage you to get away

832
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,280
from all distractions.
Get into a quiet place, have

833
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,040
your journal out, or write some
things down.

834
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,600
So we're going to take a moment
and listen for God's voice.

835
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,680
I have 4 questions for you, so
each one we're going to pause

836
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,840
afterwards so you can listen to
the Lord as you're in prayer

837
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,960
with him.
As you hear things from God, I

838
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,680
encourage you to write them down
so you don't forget, whether

839
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,800
that's on your phone or maybe in
a journal.

840
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:26,000
And I know that every question I
ask you won't apply to your

841
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,960
exact scenario, but I spread
these questions out so that no

842
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,880
matter who you are, at least one
of these questions is going to

843
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,960
apply to you and be worth
chewing on for some time.

844
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,760
So the first question I want to
ask you is if you are someone

845
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,120
who struggles with same sex,
attraction, or gender.

846
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,680
Dysphoria ask the Lord to.
Highlight what is under that.

847
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,680
It could be self hatred,
identity issues.

848
00:55:51,110 --> 00:55:52,350
Rejection.
Grief.

849
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:55,950
You could be feeling a lot of
different things around this

850
00:55:55,950 --> 00:55:59,550
certain struggle, but I
encourage you to ask the Lord to

851
00:55:59,550 --> 00:56:02,110
highlight what's under that and
ask him to bring it to the

852
00:56:02,110 --> 00:56:21,260
surface.
Whether you're someone who

853
00:56:21,260 --> 00:56:23,860
struggles with samesex
attraction or gender dysphoria

854
00:56:23,860 --> 00:56:27,540
or not, invite the Lord to speak
identity over you.

855
00:56:28,300 --> 00:56:31,700
What is he?
Saying about you, what is he

856
00:56:31,700 --> 00:56:43,460
saying about how he created you
to be make sure you're writing

857
00:56:43,460 --> 00:56:45,820
these things down either now or
later.

858
00:56:46,460 --> 00:56:49,060
This next question goes in a
different direction.

859
00:56:49,740 --> 00:56:54,060
I know that these topics of the
LGBTQ plus community, gender

860
00:56:54,060 --> 00:56:57,620
Dysphoria, Samesex attraction.
Conversation about those things

861
00:56:57,980 --> 00:57:01,380
could get you super angry for
whatever reason.

862
00:57:01,860 --> 00:57:06,500
So if it does, I encourage you
to ask the Lord why does this

863
00:57:06,500 --> 00:57:07,580
make me angry?
God.

864
00:57:07,900 --> 00:57:12,660
And what is under this anger?
It never is simply just anger.

865
00:57:12,700 --> 00:57:14,220
There's always something under
it.

866
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,640
Now ask the Lord God, how do you
want me to engage in this space?

867
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:35,680
What is my role in spreading
your love to those who are lost

868
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,880
or wrestling with same sex
attraction or gender dysphoria?

869
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,320
You may be thinking of a
specific person in your life, or

870
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,760
you may be thinking of a lack
thereof of people in your life

871
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:52,240
who struggle with those things.
Just ask the Lord what his role

872
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,640
is He wants you to play in this
issue.

873
00:58:08,580 --> 00:58:10,980
So I encourage you to write down
whatever you feel the Lord is

874
00:58:10,980 --> 00:58:13,460
telling you and then discern it
by the word of God.

875
00:58:14,260 --> 00:58:18,140
Thank you so much for listening
to this section, and I hope it

876
00:58:18,140 --> 00:58:20,060
really helped you.
To apply this.

877
00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:22,140
Episode from your head to your
heart.

878
00:58:27,140 --> 00:58:29,620
Thank you so much for listening
to this episode of Head to Heart

879
00:58:29,620 --> 00:58:32,180
Podcast.
It's a joy to record them and a

880
00:58:32,180 --> 00:58:35,180
joy to have you listen.
Since you're a dedicated

881
00:58:35,180 --> 00:58:38,660
listener and made it to the very
end of the episode, I have two

882
00:58:38,660 --> 00:58:42,540
gifts for you.
One is that I have a free

883
00:58:42,540 --> 00:58:44,220
resource, LinkedIn the Show
Notes for you.

884
00:58:44,660 --> 00:58:47,420
It's a resource created to help
you take the truth you've

885
00:58:47,420 --> 00:58:51,020
learned, either in this episode
or in a previous one and apply

886
00:58:51,020 --> 00:58:53,900
it to your life.
The second gift I have for you

887
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:56,380
is access to my seasonal
playlist.

888
00:58:57,300 --> 00:59:00,700
Every season, Summer, Fall,
winter, Spring, I create a

889
00:59:00,700 --> 00:59:03,140
regular playlist and a worship
playlist.

890
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,520
That will be ongoing throughout
the season and you'll be able to

891
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,480
follow it on Spotify if you need
some good boogie tunes.

892
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,640
Because let's be honest, in
another life I would have been a

893
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:17,200
DJ, so you now have full access
to meet all your seasonal music

894
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,920
needs in the show notes.
As always, I love hearing from

895
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,720
you, so follow me on Instagram
and send me a DM of how this

896
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,040
episode impacted you.
The handle is Head to Heart

897
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:31,160
under score Podcast and if you
would be so kind.

898
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:35,680
Leave a 5 star rating and review
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899
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,720
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900
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:42,680
more amazing guests on the show.
In the future, I'll be releasing

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new episodes to you every other
Friday, so stay tuned and thanks

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for joining us.