#99 Carolyn Swinton: Chasing Hope

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Lynn, Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life and now here's your host, Lynn Carnes,

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welcome to the creative spirits unleash Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. My guest for this episode is Carolyn Swinton, who is an executive coach and consultant and who also happens to be one of my former clients. We worked together years ago when she was the chief nursing officer of a large hospital organization. We stayed in touch over the years, and more than once after we had a meaningful conversation, I hung up thinking we should have recorded that for a podcast.

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Well, we finally did it. This conversation touched on a number of themes, everything from making the distinction between knowledge and wisdom to learning to take nothing personally, to finding hope when everything seems out of kilter. Carolyn has a way of empowering people to live a purpose driven life, as she does, and that was one of the core themes of this conversation. She emphasizes the value of learning to be present, something that I find much easier said than done, and yet is so very possible when she talks about it. Now, here's a little bit more about Carolyn.

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Carolyn Swinton is an executive coach and consultant, drawing on her 30 plus years of experience as a C suite executive guidance is often needed to unleash the power and potential that lies within us all. Carolyn's purpose is to guide and support individuals and organizations in their journeys to achieve their full potential and live their best lives, she utilizes the proven practices of traditional and directed coaching, powerful questions, reflective practices and deep empathy to support a deepening self awareness, effective communication and the cultivation of meaningful relationships to help clients awaken to their truth. Carolyn has coached middle and senior leaders in the healthcare and business sectors, and is the right fit for clients ready to deepen their self awareness and master the tools they need to effectively communicate, resolve conflict and achieve operational and cultural transformation.

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Most recently, she served as a Chief Nurse executive for the largest healthcare system in South Carolina. In addition to her executive coaching, she also serves as affiliate faculty at the University of South Carolina College of Nursing, an affiliate clinical associate professor at the Clemson University School of Nursing. Carolyn has coached leaders utilizing the leadership circle 360 and leadership maturity assessment profiles as guides to support leaders in developing and understanding of themselves and others, coaching in alignment with the principles of vertical development, Carolyn supports leaders in transforming their way of thinking, speaking and being to achieve sustainable change. Carolyn is a fellow of the American College of Healthcare Executives, fellow of the Riley Institute diversity leaders fellowship program, and an ANCC board certified nurse executive. She is a certified new field network coach for personal and professional mastery international coaching Federation, associate certified coach, certified in leadership circle 360 and manager edition, my worldview practitioner for adult development, and is an Everything DiSC certified practitioner. Carolyn has a doctorate degree in nurse executive leadership from the University of South Carolina, College of Nursing. Carolyn serves on the boards of several state and local nonprofit organizations whose mission is to support the underserved and disadvantaged to gain social and financial stability. She is the author of chasing hope, a nurse's reflections on healing and hope, reflections of nursing, and CO editor of the untold stories of nursing for fun, Carolyn likes to read, play the guitar and travel. I know from hearing that bio that you can see what a deep and rich executive and executive coach that Carolyn Swinton is, and I know you are going to love this episode with Carolyn Swinton.

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Carolyn Swinton, or should I say, Dr, Carolyn Swinton.

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Carolyn Swinton is fine.

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Welcome to the creative spirits unleash Podcast. I'm happy to be here with you. Thank you for coming to do this.

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Actually that moment, as I was just saying, is, should I say you and I have known each other for a really long time now, something over 15 years, and we've worked together in a lot of different ways and capacities. But one of the things that I marvel is that somewhere in that time you got your PhD,

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uh, yeah, actually my DNP, DMP,

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okay. Okay, so explain what a DMP is.

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US Doctor of Nursing Practice in my specialty track is executive leadership.

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Anyway, anytime you have a doctor in front of anything, that's a big deal.

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Yeah, it was a big deal for me, and maybe not for the reasons that everyone chooses to pursue that degree, but I was ready to learn. I felt like I needed to know more. Wanted to remain relevant in the field, and just ready to learn. You know,

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we have a lot to talk about on the way. You are a hungry learner, but what I'm curious about is the reserves, or maybe not reserves, but where and how did you find the focus and energy in the middle of everything else you had going on at the time to put yourself in that kind of program and keep yourself like, keep all the balls in the air, if you will, at one time. Because I know it wasn't something you took lightly, and I know it was not something you did sort of half assed either.

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You know, I felt compelled to move in this direction. I don't know. There's something you know about my life, how I think, how I feel, more specifically how I feel, or I just, I get the call, you know, to move forward in a certain direction. And I felt like this is the time. And I also felt like this is the only time, the only opportunity that I will have to pursue this degree. Wow.

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So you used a very important word that I think gets misused a lot, and that's the the F word you said, how I feel.

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And a lot of us get conditioned to only think, don't let your feelings run you, etcetera. We get a lot of messages like that.

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And what I have gotten to know with you is that you are very tuned in and that you use feelings as a guide, not as a willy nilly. Oh, I don't feel like it today, so I'm not going to do it kind of way. So tell me how you've come to learn to use the way you feel so effectively.

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Well, I think it's been a lot of, I guess, not knowing trial and error, if you will. I think it became more conscious as I went through my coach training, and have done additional work just around paying attention to the body and ontological coach, which really incorporates everything, your feelings, your language, your your emotion, and paying attention to the body. And so in that process, you know, my body signals me, lets me know something's right. If something doesn't feel safe, it lets me know when I've arrived at a certain place or certain decision or certain condition.

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And so from that space, I take that information that my body is giving me, and then I reflect, I'm like, okay, so what do I need to do? What do I need to say? How do I need to show up?

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And that has served me well, because I don't naturally, and this has come through practice and a lot of hard work. I don't necessarily react in the moment in terms of how I'm feeling, but I choose to respond and in that sort of way of kind of showing up or moving forward. It helps me to, you know, get to where I need to be.

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So you said your body signals, and you you use the word, you use the word ontological in context of coaching, which I've never gone through a coaching certification that does Ontological Coaching, but boy, have I worked with a lot of colleagues who who do that, and it helped me understand just how much wisdom our body carries, and what actually, one of the thoughts that was rolling around in my head this morning was the brain is not the only part of us that thinks our body also knows and.

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Yes, it's something that I could probably couldn't have known any sooner than I did, but I really wish I'd known this so much sooner, because it we often are taking actions to resolve the feelings in our body without even realizing that that's what we're doing. We think we're doing something logical, and we're really just trying to resolve the feelings that are happening in our body. That sometimes can be, like you said, a signal, sometimes it can be noise. So how have you learned to discern what's a what's a true signal, and when you're getting interference,

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uh, there's, I know there. There's distinctions, yeah. So there's a certain no matter how I'm feeling, it's telling me something, but there are distinctions in terms of what it's telling me. So for example, if I'm nervous or anxious, there's a certain sort of feeling that comes with that.

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And so I notice, and then I act, or I ask, I ask myself, okay, so what is this telling me in terms of what I should do? Why do I feel this way? So in terms of what I was referring to earlier, there's a feeling of completeness, a feeling of wholeness, once again, a feeling that I'm I've arrived at a decision, this is where I'm supposed to be, because a feeling may be telling me, move forward. Oh yes, this is the time. And there's this feeling of, you know, sort of one issue, and I've talked a lot about this in terms of that feeling of alpha, some people were regarded as as do I, in terms of spirituality that I'm I am getting a call to move in a certain direction. And so when I get that feeling or that sensation, it tends to just sort of move through me in a certain way. I I feel like I can breathe, I feel a lightness, I feel sunshine, air. It's just that sort of feeling of completeness. And so that's sort of the I don't know if it's a process, it's more of a state of being, but I listen to that feeling. And when I'm in conversation, you know, for example, a coaching conversation, or I'm just with someone, it helps me to really be with that person, and it allows me to quiet the voices and the noise, these things that, as you say, can be interruptions or interference, and there's a quietness, there's a place of, I see you, I am here, that feeling of Ubuntu, where that you're fully present.

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And sometimes when you're in a space like that, um, the lines between you and that person become blurred. You know, it's the deepest form of empathy for me, where you feel pain, I feel pain. You feel joy. I feel joy, and I can really be with a person, and beautiful things happen, not just for the person that I'm with, but for me, and I appreciate that so much.

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That's a give and a take in a way, right? It's, it's not one sided. And you use the word Ubuntu. Explain that word a little bit, for those who might not know what that word means,

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well, listen an African saying or way of being. I see you. I am here. It's almost like a call out when I read the description in one reference, it was as if, you know, the Africans moving through the bush and they could hear someone coming. They would call out, you know, I see you, and the other person would say, I am here. But is this a form of connectedness, acknowledgement? Respect for humanity. Um, yeah, it's just, I think it's just a beautiful way of just being present.

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I see you. Is such a powerful acknowledgement. And I've, I've done this, I walk in nature a lot, and sometimes I say that to plants. Every now and then I'll see a little leaf waving, and it almost feels like it couldn't possibly be from the wind, and it makes me feel like or a butterfly goes by, or maybe just a little squirrel, but I love to go I see you. And, you know, and just notice them as I'm going. And what you said, I think, is the most important part is, yes, it might do something for the squirrel or the butterfly, who knows, but it's more about what it did for me, the little feeling. You use the word completeness of of that little feeling of just, it's just a good little feeling,

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yeah, and you know what I hear when you say that, or what I feel when you say that?

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Is that acknowledgement, where you have this space of this is about me, you can be about yourself and still be with another person. And I say that to mean that, what can I gain?

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What is present in this moment that allows me to be with a person to kind of meet the need listen, if that need is to just listen. You know, sometimes people don't need an answer.

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They just want to talk. In that ability to listen that I gain something, patience, humility, deference to the other person.

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So it's always about, what can I learn? What can I gain? And this process, and in doing or in being, you know, with another person, you know, I always win.

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I always gain. And the greatest gift for me will be that the other person did as well, you know, because that's my intention, is to be with a person and not have that time wasted. You know, I mean, leave something in that person with the hope that they will leave something in me,

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as I as I'm listening, I'm I'm reflecting on the career had, and now you're running your own coaching firm, but for many of the years that we've known each other, you were involved in nursing leadership, and at times, had 1000s of people reporting to

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you. Yes,

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I'm reflecting on how this was how you approached your leadership practice, and I always wondered how you had time and you didn't always, none of us ever do, but how you had the time and the mindset to welcome people into some pretty darn difficult conversations, but in this way, So could you say a little bit about how you blended that in that environment? Yes.

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And I want to begin with saying that you were a great part of that development, you know, great part of that journey. You know, we met when you decided to take me on, you know as your client, with my first Chief Nursing executive position, and you also helped me to understand this, this gift as a gift and not a burden, because in my role, I was often called upon to do difficult things, have difficult conversations. My whole career was really being called into situations that needed a remedy, needed a solution, needed fixing. And so because I was called and was not seeking these positions. It was It wasn't so much about the title or the position or the authority. It was about what can I do? Why am I here? So it was always about the other person.

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It was always about the organization, its mission, his vision, his promise to the community. So when I went into work, I didn't show up for myself. I showed up for others.

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I showed up for what I valued, for what I had to give. And so in operating or leading in that space, I was compelled to help.

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And I would tell my people, I would say, Hey, I'm here to help you. I'm going to help you in your journey to you, know, reach your potential, fulfill your dreams. I'm here to support you.

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I'm also here to help you choose a different path, which means you may not be in the right organization, or you may not be in the right seat in the organization. And so they were clear that this helping would not always be a joyful interaction, so sometimes it meant they're going to be difficult conversations. Um. Um, because that was my obligation, and so, and they knew that. And so if you were like, kind of like straying from the path, if you will, then there had to be a conversation which included questions, you know, help me understand. So, what's getting in your way from you following the rules or interacting with, you know, your co workers or your subordinates, even, because I was a leader of leaders, you know, more effectively. So those were the conversations that took place, and I had a lot of angst.

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You know, initially, I still have angst about having this conversation, by the way, yeah, I know you do. I mean, I couldn't sleep. I'd be up all night, you know, it's like, oh, I don't want to talk to this person. I have to talk to this person because, you know, and it at my heart, you know, I want to, I don't want anyone to, you know, feel like they're making a mistake, or that they're not enough, or they're that they're not good enough. Um, and so it was from that space to, you know, not cause harm, um, that I had this anxiety, but at the same time, I knew that not having the conversation would cause harm. It would not benefit that person, it wouldn't benefit the organization, it wouldn't benefit the people that we were charged to serve. And so, you know, from that space of being supportive and helping, I was able to have those conversations, but have it in a way that was respectful, that was empathetic, that was truthful and not to beat around the bush. You know, I've shared this with you before that I see myself as a fellow traveler, and so I believe that, you know, while I can't walk your road or walk anyone else's road, I can be there to support you. I can walk alongside you, I can hold your hand. I can be a shoulder to lean on a listening ear. And so this is what I offer, because on any journey you need, you need tools, or you need certain elements or pieces and parts to get to where you need to go. And so that is my offering. And so if you're traveling and you have a flat tire, but you've got a tank full of gas, why would I offer you gas? I offer you what you need. And so in that space, and with that intention, um, it made it easier for me to have those difficult conversations.

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Well, you had you debt. We talked through so many of those conversations. And and there was a, I don't know if I would call it a moment, but I have witnessed dramatic shifts in you over these last many years to where you sort of went from, okay, I will carry this burden to this is a gift. And in the in the way I see things, I sometimes talk about the world having there being sort of two worlds. I've often used the analogy of fish that don't know they're in water, and dolphins, who do. And you know, fish, if they broke through the surface of the water, would go, Oh, my God, there's a whole new world here. I didn't even know this world existed. You know, whereas a dolphin can kind of walk in two worlds, the underwater world and the world of of the air, they know, because they need the air from this, this, if you were will, World of the, you know, with air and somewhere, to me, it just seems like you went from, see, you know, really being it's almost like you always knew there were two worlds, but you broke through to experience the other world. If I could make put it that way, I don't know if that makes sense to you, but do you recall what or how that happened, or when, or

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Yes, and I think what really, you know, kind of pushed me into that knowledge, understanding, acceptance, was my need to live a purpose driven life. You know, I really want to be that person that takes the gifts that have been given to me and to utilize them fully and to leave nothing in the tank. So when I come to the end of this work that I'm doing, or if I come to the end of my life, I want to be able to look back.

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And say, Hey, I gave everything that I had to give. You know, I said what I needed to say. I did what I needed to do. I did my work. You know, my personal work to be better, to to be more effective, to communicate in a way that mattered, to be with people. So when I came to that understanding, that knowledge, that awakening, if you will, it made it easier for me to see this as my work, not as my burden. Because, you know how much of a burden it was for me.

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I mean, it was that sort of head bowed, you know, like I'm walking against the wind on an uphill climb with a 50 pound sack on my back. Yeah, it was, it was heavy for me, and I did it. You know, I would climb that hill, I would do that work, I would have that conversation, but I saw it more as a burden.

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And now I don't, I can't say that. I don't ever feel some heaviness, but I also feel like I do this work now with joy, and not with so much of that anxiety, or, you know, sorrow.

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Or why do I have to do this. I think I use that word a lot, man, I have to. Why do I always have to do? Why do I always have to do the hard things? And I have more of a mindset, I get to do these things. You know? It's a it's a gift, it's an opportunity to make a difference, to lighten someone else's load.

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Were you? You, you also, earlier alluded to something about in doing the work I get to and that's been a critical distinction that you and I've learned together over these years, which is recognizing how outcome driven our education system usually makes all of us you've got to pass. Once you pass the test, once you finish the grade, once you get the letters behind your name, once you fill in the blank, everything will be fine. And everything leading to those ends is just interference. And both of us have in the last years made this shift to say those things are just the reason for the journey. The real joy is in the steps leading to those things.

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Yes, and I see, when you were, you know, I'm talking I the two words that popped in my mind was knowledge and wisdom, you know? So there's a difference between the two. And so it's that in the doing whatever that thing is, in having the conversation, in doing the self work, it's the process itself that gets you there. It's not necessarily the distinct steps themselves. You know, we have a checklist. It's not the words that you see on the paper. It's in the process of having the conversation. You know, you have to do something, you have to have the conversation. That's the thing on the list, but it's in doing.

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It's that in having the conversation and paying attention to how you feel, paying attention to the other person in the room, what are they telling you without even saying a word. You know, in doing, we learn to listen, not only with our ears, but with our heart, you know, with our senses, you know, people hold their bodies a certain way, depending on how they're feeling inside, their facial expressions, their gestures, how they move their hands, you know, are they, you know, their directionality? Are they, you know, looking up, looking down.

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Are they, you know, kind of turn to the side. All of those things give us information. So it's in doing. It's in the struggle. You know, when we're going through the fire, we're going through hard times and the difficulty, the difficulty sets the context, whatever the issue is that you're enduring, but it's in going forward, in spite of this hard time. It's the choices that we make, in spite of the difficulty, the choices that we make, not just for the day that we're in, or the moment that we're in, but for the future.

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Yeah, that we want to have the invisible thing that we know we want to reach, but we can't. We can't see it, we can't hold it, we can't touch it today, but we know that's where we want to go.

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So it's in the doing. It's just like. I'm kind of going back this to the many conversations that we had where there was conflict that I had to have hard conversations with. It could be a peer, it could be a supervisor, it could be a subordinate. Didn't matter who it was, it was just that it was it existed. Something needed to change, and then in the doing, I had to understand, why am I afraid? Why am I hesitant?

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What's my intention? What do I want? How do I want this person, not necessarily to feel about the conversation, because I can't control their feelings.

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But what do I want this person to know? I want it to be clear at the end of the conversation, who I am, what I stand for, what do I need from you? What am I willing to give? What am I willing to accept? You know, it's there's all these pieces and parts. So it's in doing these things that I move from knowledge to wisdom, that I move from not knowing to knowing. And it's in doing that I can speak the unspeakable, speak the unspoken, and see the unseen. So this is what the this is what the in the doing has done for me, and particularly speak the unspoken, because there are a lot of things that I held back on, you know, I couldn't say, I didn't want to say, and there were things that needed to be said.

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And in speaking the unspoken, the in in the in the process of having conversations and paying attention to the other person more fully and deeply and being present, there are things that are unknown that become known.

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And you can say things, you can ask questions, and then the other person will say, How did you know that's what I was thinking. I couldn't say it. And so that's what that whole business of doing your work can bring forth. And then it moves it from a checklist to a task. Um to a thing that you can see and do, um to something that is so much more.

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And that's where I want to be all the time. If I could

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so well, I have so many questions about what you said, but one of them is when you have a moment where you have spoken the unspoken and and in a way, it's almost like it sounds like you say you're not using this language, but it almost clears the air what happens to you and to the setting the conversation to the other person, when something that was unspoken, that needed to be said gets said.

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In that moment, there is a feeling of, yes, we are arriving.

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Things are unfolding. There is discovery. There is awakening.

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Um, there is a weights are lifted. You know, we all have certain ways that we feel when we know that we're here right where we're supposed to be. So I have that sensation I you know, nature is important to me. So there's this feeling I can breathe. You know, there's no constriction. It's like there's freedom, you know, like the chains have fallen off, and that's how I feel. And for the other person, I can see the shift. There's like the their face, the countenance changes.

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There's this feeling of lightness, of joy, of burdens lifted, and then I hear it, because they tell me that that is so, yeah, I feel so much better. I feel like I can move forward. And it's not from anything that I've done, because I'm just the coach and the guide. They find the solution.

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Within themselves, and so that is the thing that they can take with them, because it's already there. They're just what they weren't conscious of it, but now they are. Now they have a knowing that they didn't have previously.

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See that's really empowering, because I have these conversations a lot. I work with, you know, I ski a lot, with Austin able, who people and we talk about this. In fact, he was looking for a better word than coach or teacher, even, because he says, I don't want to give you anything other than what you already have. I just want you to see what you have.

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And that's what I heard you say, and that's as you know what I like when I'm at my best. That's the kind of coaching I do, which is really to help you see through the noise to what's always been there. And yes, you know it's, it's a pretty strong principle of the human experience. I think we all have more than we know we have, but it gets covered up. You know, sometimes in the way we were taught to parrot answers rather than solve problems and struggle, right?

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Yes, and you remind me of one of my coaches, Alexander love is that when you come to the answer, you realize that you are already there, that you are you are enough, that it was just this ability to to see yourself, you know, in a different way, in a more holistic way, that gets you there. And I think that's so important, because we do, you know, suffer often with inadequacy, that someone knows it better. They can do it better, but getting to really know who you are, what you're about, for what you have to offer. All of these things are so important and that the most important conversations, as someone wisely said, will be with yourself.

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So true. I have a I have a practical story about this in my own life just recently, because I just put out my audible book, and I got stuck this summer in inadequacy, because for the silliest reason, when I look at it from this side of the conversation, but it felt real when I was on the other side of it, the conversation with myself, that Is, which was okay, I should be able to take these files that I've already read the book and edit out the bad parts and put in a replacement sentence, or just take out a stumble or whatever, and and there were two problems to solve. One was to make those edits, and the other was to then have the audio files meet the standards of the software you put the audio books on. They have standards for I don't even know how the standards work, but somehow I thought I could do that. And and for three weeks, I actively did not work on my book because I was stuck in at inadequacy. Why can't I figure this out? I looked at AI, I looked at software, I looked at, you know, and I was, I was doing all of these things in sort of what I would say, was a not very enlightened way. And then it dawned on me, as I had this, I was like, what is making this so hard? Is, wait a minute, Lynn, you're expecting yourself to be an audio engineer. There's a job for this. Yes, did. You didn't even think twice when you did your paper book to get an editor to tell you how to fix, you know, where the sentence need to be restructured, or, you know, proofing and all of that, and you hired a separate person to format the book, because just right, like, yes, Lynn, you could have self edited. And yes, Lynn, you could have self formatted, but it wouldn't have been as good. And so then I realized, oh, go find an audio ad engineer, which I did, fabulous person to help me for.

00:39:18.420 --> 00:39:54.579
Then the next three weeks working with him, and he told me where to, like rerecord, and he told me, and he put the sentences in, and it was just beautifully done, but it all the everything you just said was from me having a conversation with myself of inadequacy, and rather than stepping away and seeing where I I was the only one who could do the voice, but I didn't need to learn to be an audio engineer to make this work, right.

00:39:54.699 --> 00:40:01.679
And you know, you and I have such a rich history, and so coming full circle in terms of.

00:39:58.059 --> 00:40:10.679
You know, where we started in the work that we've done together. Bruce Anderson comes to mind with nature's view that he's done with the horses.

00:40:10.978 --> 00:40:26.659
Because we're talking about, you know, that alpha and that tyrant mindset. But we're, we're talking about the past and letting the past not be a slave master, but context reference.

00:40:26.958 --> 00:40:46.599
So what do we know and how can we apply it in this situation to help us to get to a solution? So always having these conversations around what options, what choices do I have so that I can move forward in a way that you know benefits me or benefits others. So I love what you just shared.

00:40:47.260 --> 00:41:25.820
Well, he he uses that exact distinction, let the past inform, not interfere. Yes, in that case, even, even with all the work I've done, the past could still interfere. And that, I think, is actually the beauty of the journey, because there's always another layer to to sort of break through. And for a long time, obvious, I will say, prior to working with Bruce, I just kind of kept circling the same thing. And it wasn't until I he made that distinction, in a way, physically and with the body.

00:41:26.239 --> 00:42:02.820
You know, Lord calls this language the negative positive pole. That feeling of balancing your poles is like what you talk about arriving. It's like when you're when everything settles down, the agitation, the molecules moving, sort of settle, as opposed to it. It's, it's something's off, and I can feel that agitation. And now I need to know what, let it tell me what to do. And, you know, finally, I had a way of progressing where I had, in a lot of ways, been stuck, you know, in the same pattern where my past kept interfering, right?

00:42:02.820 --> 00:42:30.079
And so you, you use the word progressing, and that's, that's what this is all about progress, not perfection. And so that's really a big part of this work. I'm seeing things on a continual, you know, we're heading towards something. And this continuum doesn't have an endpoint, if you will. So we're always moving in a direction.

00:42:26.420 --> 00:42:51.280
And as you said, you know, because we're looking for progress and not perfection, it doesn't mean that we always get it right. It doesn't mean that the past doesn't interfere. But as we do our work, our self work, and as we support others in theirs, you know you gain skills and tools along the way, so that you learn how to pause.

00:42:52.000 --> 00:44:13.500
You know you pay attention to how you're feeling, how you're thinking, and you ask questions, and you also understand that you have choices. And I think that's the power of this work. The power of this life is it's not always yes or no, either or both, and is an option. Two things can exist at one time and benefit you. And I think sometimes we forget that, but I think this is, this is the work that we do. This is the work that we live. And it doesn't matter who we're with. It can be a leader, it can be a neighbor, it can be any individual that you have the the fortune to cross paths with is that this is the life that we're living in terms of always choosing things are always unfolding. As one of my my coaches, another coach, Veronica, love, who I've done a lot of work with, with the somatic coaching learning space is that the answer is already there. It's already in the field, whatever we need for ourselves or for the people that we're working with. It's there.

00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:41.500
It's a matter of having that conversation, asking those questions, being fully present, you know, just being an empty cup. You know, we're we're not here to provide solutions and the answers, but we're here to have something poured into us, which allows us to pour something into others. And that's almost a beautiful space to be in.

00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:47.800
What have you found helps you the most be present?

00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:58.239
What think what helps me the most is, is to is my intention with being someone?

00:44:55.539 --> 00:45:18.780
Sometimes you have prep for that. You know you have a client. That you're going to work with. And so you kind of get ready put yourself in a space of openness and reflection. Sometimes you don't it might be like in the moment, but really just taking a deep breath and getting grounded doesn't take long to get there.

00:45:19.559 --> 00:46:01.380
But really looking at that person, not just what I can see physically, but what I can feel, and to have the respect to honor the humanity of that person who's sitting or standing in front of me, to listen to give of myself to that person if that's what they need in that moment. Um, can I do that? Can I be that person that they need to be right now in this present moment? And am I there all the time? No, that. Am I walking the path to get there.

00:46:02.099 --> 00:46:56.380
Absolutely Have you ever when you're in that setting and as you're sitting with someone, I'm asking this question because this has happened to me, by the way, seeing something that caused you to want to judge them, and been able to overcome that, that desire to judge in other words, let's, I'm, I'm going to just make something up, because I can't think of any specific time. But where I see somebody, perhaps I think they're being super selfish or something. So as I'm seeing them in their humanity, what I'm seeing is therefore, or what I call their flaws, which then I struggle, sometimes, not all the time, with wanting to judge them. Do you ever have that happen for you? And if so, how do you how do you get past that?

00:46:56.380 --> 00:46:58.960
I have some tricks for myself, but I'm curious how you do it.

00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:25.159
Yes, that happens to me, you know, more often than I would like. And when I have that thought, I notice it, and I've learned to set it aside. And how I set it aside is really saying, you know, that's you, you know, have I ever been judgmental?

00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:28.760
Have I have I ever been selfish?

00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:40.960
Have I ever been whatever I see in that other person? I see it in me, I I'm learning to have grace for myself and for others.

00:47:36.260 --> 00:50:03.239
And the other thing that comes to mind too, is what will serve and me, that judgment will not serve. It doesn't serve me. It doesn't serve the person that I'm with. And once again, it comes back to purpose. Why am I here? Am I here to judge, or am I here to notice, also understanding, and this is the big piece too, is I know a lot, but I don't know everything. I see a lot, and I don't see everything. And the wise person that brought me to that conclusion was you. You told me that many years ago. And so with that wisdom, which I take with me is I don't know their whole story. I know what I know, but I don't know everything. So if this person is showing up in a way that maybe doesn't land well with me, I understand that there may be some pain, there some brokenness, and this is how they cope. Doesn't make them a bad person. It doesn't make them a good person. It just makes them who they are in this moment, and because I don't know their story, then I just take it for what it is in the moment, and don't assign anything to it other than it showed up. Why it showed up? I don't know. And if the and if the moment calls for it, I can ask, I can always ask a question. I don't have to be right. I don't have to be brilliant. They can choose to answer or not, but then the assumption is tested. And I will tell you, when I test an assumption, it's not always what I thought it was. And so once again, opportunity to learn, opportunity to grow. But yeah, we live in judgment, and so acknowledging that we do, being honest with ourselves about it, and then having that conversation with ourselves. So what am I going to do? You know, and that's where the empathy and the service comes in, because I don't want to be that person that thinks that I have a right.

00:49:58.059 --> 00:50:19.320
Right to sit or stand in judgment of anyone. Allows me Go ahead. No, no, listen. That allows me to just, you know, to come to a situation or a person with some level of wholeness for myself.

00:50:21.659 --> 00:51:26.599
Well, you what I was going to say is, because you do test your assumptions. And, you know, we've, we probably when, when we were talking at some point, I've drawn the ladder of inference on a piece of paper for you. But I didn't invent the ladder, but I think it was in, I don't know who invented it, but it's in Peter, sing, his Fifth Discipline field book was where I usually reference it, but you so we sort of start with data, and the start with all that is there, we immediately miss some of it. Like you said, I don't know all, or I don't see all because I'm filtering from the very beginning. And then we sort of have an internal process where we assign meaning and make assumptions, jump to conclusions, those eventually become our beliefs. Nobody ever sees all that. And then we take our actions and all people see is the data they see and the actions we take and all that internal filtering and meaning and assumptions and conclusions and beliefs. None of that gets visible to others, and that's where our judgments come from.

00:51:26.898 --> 00:51:30.438
And if we remember to just go started testing those things.

00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:37.639
And so the picture I had as you were talking is you just keep dropping down to the data, back to the data, back to the data.

00:51:37.639 --> 00:52:01.619
I'm going to test the assumptions, I'm going to get more information. I'm going to remember, and again, as we're going in that internal process, we can't help but go, that's right, that's wrong. That's that person's because judgment can be both positive and negative. We can be judging someone very positively, saying, oh, that's the way to do it. And that's just as harmful in some ways, is saying they're stupid or wrong?

00:52:02.699 --> 00:52:13.318
Yes, it is, because what you're referring to when you mentioned the word filter, what came to mind was my my training with new field network.

00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:27.199
That's where I was introduced to this business of observer. We filter based on the observer that we are in the observer that we are comes from our socialization, our training, our ancestry, all of those things.

00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:42.938
And once we have knowledge of and clarity about this business of observer, then it gives us an opportunity to pause and say, Okay, let me widen my view. Let me look at another perspective.

00:52:42.938 --> 00:53:01.378
Let me invite another perspective, because I'm seeing the world not necessarily the way that it is, but the way that I am. And so when we can acknowledge that and look at it, we can like, okay, you know there, there may be more. Let me ask a question.

00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:25.579
That's the other world part that I feel like hap has happened. It's happened for me since I've known you, and I've certainly seen it happen for you, is to start looking for things that are not already in our system, and being able to invite in is a whole new world.

00:53:26.840 --> 00:53:28.760
And what

00:53:29.119 --> 00:54:15.960
I know for myself, and I have found this to be a pretty common thread, is I had not been inviting it in because of that silly little sensation of something being off kept me wanting to let anything cause I didn't want to rock my world, even though it was basically not even rocking my world, but it felt like I might die if I let it in. You know that physical sensation of fake I'm screwing up, I'm not enough, and once we calibrate that sensation back to the physical stuff you were talking about earlier, to just mean, yeah, I'm having a little feeling of something being off, but that doesn't mean I'm dying, right then other things,

00:54:17.159 --> 00:55:34.458
yeah, and it can be your body just signaling you, because That's what the body is designed to do. It could be the past interfering and wanting you to think like you said, I'm not enough. This is something negative. But what we can do is we can notice, we pay attention to everything, and then we question, we ask questions about where this is, and we're when we're honest with ourselves, you know, which is a, you know, it might sound like an odd thing to say, but we can talk ourselves out of honesty, because it makes us feel better. But we can feel when we can feel what we need to feel. We can be honest and say, Hey, I felt this way. I don't like it. That does. It make me feel good about myself, but it's there, so what can I do about it? Because that's not where I want to live. That's not where I want to stand. I want to be able to move away from that. And what will it take for me to get there? And so always noticing, always in reflection, always asking questions. It is changed my life, and I hope that in the process of me changing, that I've been able to support others in their journey as well.

00:55:35.539 --> 00:56:06.059
Yeah, that that distinction you said at the beginning of it could be our past interfering, or it could be our body giving us a signal. I was listening to Andrew Huberman interview Alex Honnold, who is the guy that did that movie free solo. So he climbed a 3000 foot mountain in Yosemite with no ropes, and they did a movie about it, they documented it. So that's why they called it free solo, because he's by himself.

00:56:06.179 --> 00:56:09.239
He's got nobody belaying him.

00:56:06.179 --> 00:56:53.440
He's got no rocks or pins. He is not tied to the rock. And he climbed it 3000 feet. So, you know, he didn't have to get that high off of the mountain before when he falls, it's pretty consequential. And yes, everybody, like a lot of the scientists, around studying the amygdala and fear, wanted to understand how somebody could have that much courage to be able to do that, so actually tested him, and the word got out soon after, and I remember hearing this that the scientist said his amygdala didn't fire his there's something he's wired differently than other people, because that's what that feeling is that we're getting, is the amygdala is firing and just saying, hey, you know, somebody might be standing too close to you, a car might be about to run over you. You know, all of the things that can happen in life.

00:56:53.440 --> 00:58:20.840
Your boss just gave you a stink eye look. Whatever it might be that creates that feeling, and we generally jump to we're going to die. Well, he's talking to Andrew Huberman. This just came out in the last month or so. I recommend everybody listen to this podcast. But Huberman, who's a scientist, is asking him about that. And Alex Honnold said, oh yeah. He said, All they did was show me pictures of things like black and white, pictures of guns and things like that. And he goes pictures never killed anybody. And so for most people, when they see those pictures, their amygda fires because they see a gun, and even though it's just a piece of paper with a picture, they go into fear. And Arnold has calibrated his nervous system to know the difference between a piece of paper with a picture of a gun and a real thing. And what was really interesting, he goes, Yeah. He goes, if they had just thrown a snake in the room, they would have seen my amygdala fire. I'm thinking that is the best practical description of the difference you were talking about our body gives us a signal, but sometimes we don't know what's real, and a piece of paper, as he said, is never going to kill me, but very few people have calibrated their nervous system to have that level of discernment between true signal and noise and interference from our past.

00:58:22.340 --> 00:59:44.500
I agree with you, and that also surfaces a thought around hope, because when you can understand that things can change. You know, when you talk about recalibrating your brain, we can do that. It takes work, but what we're doing is we're forming. I'm not a scientist, but, you know, new pathways in our brain that moves us out of the ones that we were in that allows us to think and feel differently. So, you know, sometimes when I'm opening up like a learning session, I'm doing some leadership development. You know, I like to check in with my people, and sometimes I'll ask them, you know, tell me how you're feeling right now, just one word. Or I'll ask them for a number. You know, how are you feeling on a scale from one to 10, with 10 being everything's all right in the world, to one being. I wish I weren't here today. And you know, I invite them to be truthful. You know, if you're a one, be a one. If your word for today is, I'm anxious, be anxious, because we can handle it. You know, we're in a safe space. But the beauty of what has surfaced out of those questions is, if someone says there are three, you know, I'll ask them, you know, have you ever been a 10? And they say, Yeah, I've been a 10. I said, Well, you can get there again.

00:59:45.639 --> 01:00:22.400
You may not be a 10 right now, you're feeling like you're three, but you know what a 10 feels like, and what did it take to get to the 10? What experience put you at a 10? So once again. Again, an opportunity to move forward so we can we can change. There's hope that where I am right now, if it's not where I want to be, I don't have to stay here forever. There are things that I can do, there are choices, there are skills, there are things that I can learn, and for me, that matters most.

01:00:24.380 --> 01:00:28.280
I could not agree more.

01:00:24.380 --> 01:01:08.039
And back to that story. What I loved, as he was describing is he said that climb was not the most dangerous thing I've ever done. Wow. He said I have done much more dangerous things when I was attached and I'll take chances, and so forth and so what he was reflecting on is you can change and learn like I learned that route many times. I don't even know how many times he climbed that route before he climbed it with no rope, but by the time he climbed it, he knew it, hands down. He didn't have any question about his moves.

01:01:08.219 --> 01:01:46.059
You know, he knew he was going to make move because he had calibrated and worked through it. And that feeling of being stuck the the weird part, like if you're at a three, which I was this summer, as I said with this book, was that when you're at that low point, finding the energy to get yourself to take the steps to move you up that scale, is so difficult, and this is where sometimes having a coach or somebody else that can be a little bit of a catalyst can help. But also, just as you said, the remembering, if you can just remember you've been

01:01:47.920 --> 01:02:10.679
right, yeah, it's not, it's not an impossibility. You know, you've been there before you can get there again, and you're right too about the support. And that's where being that fellow traveler, or that guide is so important, because sometimes we need reminding, sometimes we need that question that will take us to truth.

01:02:07.440 --> 01:03:24.980
Because a lot of times when we're having conversations or we're saying things about ourselves, Is it, is this really the truth? And that goes back to the data and what's in front of you, and you know, being reminded that, oh, you know, you didn't just get to this space by chance. There was a lot of hard work, there was sacrifice, there was doing, you know, you took courses, you went through programs, you had conversations, you know, you did the work. And just being reminded of what is true, what is the reality, you know, can be helpful and can be supportive. And one thing that you said that was that was so important was he wasn't operating from 00, you know, he he had information, he had knowledge, he had experience, he had history. And we have those things. You know, they're different for different people, but we have those things. And so what can we do with what we know? What can we do with what we already have? And this is what coaching can do for for others, is to raise the consciousness, the raise the knowing of what's already there to support you in moving forward.

01:03:26.119 --> 01:04:15.840
So Carolyn, that brings me to a question, because I run into this a lot with myself and with my clients. I most people that know me have realized that I'm experiment number one for everything I'm teaching coaching. You know it doesn't work for me. I don't think it's going to work for you, but you talked about focusing on what we have, and it is so common to focus on what we wish we had or or don't have, which gets people, I've noticed, into negative self talk. They say things to themselves that they would never say to someone else, and they beat themselves up, and they sort of see only limitations. How have you found it to what is the most effective ways you've helped people sort of shift that negative self talk into something that's more productive?

01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:31.940
Well, one of the things that I've done, and and this is, you know, particularly working with leaders at any level. Can you can be a C suite or manager.

01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:43.300
Doesn't matter is that, you know, we're often challenged in this world with difficulty with, you know, obstacles in the road.

01:04:35.659 --> 01:05:18.360
And so I noticed that they were spending a lot of time talking about what they couldn't do, and the more they talked about what they couldn't do, the more frustrated they became, and the more anxious they became. So I asked the question, what can you do? What can. Can you do? And when you get them thinking in that direction, it was amazing that they started thinking about, Oh, I didn't think about it like that. And then they started listing, well, I can do this, I can do that, I can do.

01:05:13.139 --> 01:05:26.900
And the list goes on and on. And when they started focusing on what they could do, what was within their control to do, what was within their power to do.

01:05:26.960 --> 01:06:14.639
Then it shifted their thinking, and they became less consumed with a can't list, the restriction list, the we don't have enough list. I am not enough list, and they move towards something that was positive, that was actionable, that was achievable. And so that is something that I found that works well for myself. You know, I works for me. Maybe it'll work for someone else, but just to kind of shift them in a different mindset, because we often get bogged down in impossibility, and there's so little that we have control over, you know, so why spend so much time there? Why not spend more time in what's possible?

01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:18.900
What can I do? What can I do right now? What can I do tomorrow and be okay with it?

01:06:19.139 --> 01:07:29.480
You know? The other thing that I learned, and I'm pretty sure this was from you as well, is doing what needs to be done and not be attached to the outcome, you know, and and I'm learning to look at everything as gift and opportunity. If things didn't go well, okay, what could I do differently, you know? How can I be better prepared? What different actions can I take and just learn from it and move forward? I'm human, not going to get it right all the time, and the gift is that I learned something, or the gift could be that you did get it right, but to not think fake, you know, which I learned from rules? Oh, yeah, yeah, and so, so not think mistake and just think opportunity. You know, think gift. Because one thing that we don't always pay attention to is sometimes we make a mistake, we do something that didn't go well, but the consequences were not that great. No one was harmed. You know, nothing.

01:07:29.480 --> 01:07:47.920
Production wasn't stopped. But if we look at that, if we don't beat ourselves up and we say, okay, what can I learn from this? I can correct that that action, so that when it does matter more I'm in good shape.

01:07:43.000 --> 01:08:07.679
Because sometimes these things not sometimes I think always, that nothing is lost, that I made this mistake right here and right now, so that when I get 15 steps into the process, I don't make it where the consequences are going to be grave. And so just having that, you know, that mindset, what can I do? You know, how can I be different?

01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:13.139
How can I show up for myself in a good way?

01:08:14.280 --> 01:08:26.659
What can you do is a great pocket question. You know, when I'm stuck in I can't having as a pocket question. Well, what can I do? Is a is a really great way to switch that energy.

01:08:27.859 --> 01:08:31.639
Yeah, and it works. It works for me. Works for others.

01:08:31.639 --> 01:08:34.038
I've seen it work for others. I think

01:08:34.039 --> 01:08:44.380
that's what shifted me this summer with the book, was, you know, recognizing okay, I'm not gonna like, I had a I had a little sit down with myself and said, All right, are you really gonna learn this? Is learn this?

01:08:42.199 --> 01:08:51.100
Is this really something you want to learn? Like, do you want to become an audio engineer? Do you want to learn this software?

01:08:48.159 --> 01:09:31.699
Which I was, I was having trouble just making the file, getting the file into the system, much less doing anything with it. And I started realizing, well, if I wanted to, I could come up that learning curve, but I'm not going to, and it's the same kind of advice I give people that are starting their own business in their accounting. You know, some people are like, Oh, I've gotta do my own bookkeeping. And I'm like, No, you don't that's a whole learning curve to come. I do my own because I've already come up that learning curve. I used to be a CPA, so for me to keep my own book, there's no learning curve. For me. It's really simple, but, but for someone who hasn't done it, why would you become an accountant so that you could be in business? That's what accountants are

01:09:33.079 --> 01:10:18.479
for, right? And what you're saying to me is, is the question, how do you want to spend your time, correct? You know, right? I mean, do you want to spend your time in your purpose, the thing that's going to matter most, the thing that will allow you to give the most, or do you want to spend it on these things that you know, 100 years from now, no one's going to care? You know, it's something that someone else can do. It's not the best use of your answer. Energy to to do some of these things that we do, and we fill our day up with and at the end of the day, you know, did we live in purpose? You know, do we make a difference?

01:10:13.079 --> 01:10:51.939
Did we have a discovery? Did we help someone in their discovery, and to me that, you know that's important, you know, how I spend my time? Because we got a time stamp, we have an expiration date, and we don't get do overs, right? I can't, I can't bring tomorrow back. So, yeah, how can I spend this day, this moment, in a meaningful way that keeps me moving more and more in purpose?

01:10:53.439 --> 01:11:05.698
You used a word that I look I'm seeing a I don't know if it's a dichotomy, but a distinction between living in purpose and controlling things.

01:11:01.378 --> 01:11:20.538
And you said you really don't have that much control. Could you say more about how you have learned to live in purpose when you have so little control? As we all have so little control, what we have we often times, is an illusion.

01:11:22.699 --> 01:11:55.779
I think the context for that a comment was really around being being with other people, and how I interact with other people. You know, for me, that control piece comes in wanting people to show up the way that I would show up in this situation, or how I would do something and so. So for me, it's really letting people be who they are.

01:11:51.399 --> 01:13:54.819
You know, I have my own life. I have my own journey to live the way I do things. Someone else may not do things that way, the way other people do things. That may not work for me, but how can I just let people be who they are, be okay with it, you know, if they want to do something a certain way or they like a certain thing, that's really none of my business. You know, at the end of the day, that's not the business I'm supposed to be in. And so if I can accept people for who they are, how they want to do, how they want to be, that gives me a lot of freedom, and it gives me peace where I don't have to try to solve every problem. Every problem is not my problem to solve, and that we see as an issue, other people are okay with it. They Oh, no, I'm good with this. But it goes back to why, how I see things, the observer that I am, and how I want to shape things to fit how I see the world. So a lot of that is just, you know, really being with people. And it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, this business of Judgment, when I just let people be who they are, you know, because they're on their own journey, and in doing whatever they are doing, maybe that gets them to their destination, the destination that they want to get to. So that's probably the big thing about the control piece, you know, I can't live someone else's life, think their thoughts, you know, be their hands and feet, and so just let them be, you know, and then I can be in better relationship with people, regardless if it's family, friends, people I just met, people that I work with, because we all that's the one thing that we can do. We can choose how we want to be and leave sometimes we have to leave the rest of it alone.

01:13:56.619 --> 01:14:31.520
It's so it can be so hard to do, especially I find it the most difficult when I feel like somebody else is perhaps causing harm or could get hurt, or, you know, something like that. And there was a time when my desire to control those things I had a very long reach. I would, I would try to interfere with people that truly was none of my business, but, but I have found that it is so much better just to like they are setting up the consequences for themselves. Now it's very different, though, when it's affecting me, right?

01:14:26.899 --> 01:15:21.739
And this is where it's a very interesting distinction, and I'm remembering, and I don't know if you even remember this, but I remember you were very effective. I can even remember where I was in the car driving when you told me a story about when you were working somebody barging into your office to read you the riot act. And I typically remember you, I'm going to, I'm going to give a summary, and then you can tell whatever part of the story you want. But he i. You were willing to hear him out, but not with him barging in, and you made that distinction very clearly to the person that barged into your office. And so to me, that is the kind of thing I think a lot of people grasp, is, how do I let other people be without becoming a doormat.

01:15:23.359 --> 01:15:55.720
Yes, I do remember that conversation that we had, and, you know, I think was it was important, you know, in that moment is when you talk about the harm piece. You know, there's two pieces to that. So one is if you're involved, the other is, if you're not, but you want to offer something, you're not telling them what, what they have to do, or need to do or should do, but you can say, I have a concern about what could happen, but you leave it there.

01:15:51.939 --> 01:16:11.880
But for yourself when, when you have this situation where you can be harmed, it's about setting up boundaries. You know, we often think that boundaries are ultimatums, and if you don't do such and such, then I'm not going to do such and such.

01:16:08.340 --> 01:16:28.340
That's an ultimatum. But a boundary that you set is, you know, they can do what they choose to do. You choose not to participate. You know, I can't be a part of this, and I'm pretty sure I learned that from you as well, you know, in terms of the whole boundaries piece.

01:16:28.340 --> 01:16:55.000
Because, once again, that's where that control piece comes in. If you don't do such and such, you know, then I'm leaving. Okay, so your behavior can't always be contingent upon what someone else does? You're presented with a situation, you make the decision for yourself, do I want to be a part of it or not? And you can let the person know that you choose not to participate. This doesn't line up with what's important to me.

01:16:55.300 --> 01:16:58.239
Doesn't line up with my values.

01:16:55.300 --> 01:17:10.800
And so that's where the distinction comes in, because you do have to protect yourself in that way, because other people may choose not to. So you have to let them know that, that that's your way of showing up.

01:17:11.100 --> 01:17:18.840
That doesn't work for me. I'm happy to have a conversation with you, but not under these circumstances. And then that's that's it.

01:17:19.260 --> 01:18:10.140
That was super powerful, because, you know, for someone, and they're going to be people listening that have had this happen, you know, this is a fairly common occurrence in a lot of office settings, for different people are working together, and somebody makes a decision they don't like, or whatever, and they walk into that person's office and go into what we would call berating or a rant or something like that. And it's great to have a strategy for what to do, because that'll keep that could get you on your heels pretty quick. And a lot of times, that's how decisions really poor decisions often get made, is because the person who's on the receiving end of that ends up backing down, capitulating, you know, just because they're trying to like, they want to keep the peace, they don't like conflict.

01:18:07.439 --> 01:18:27.079
They're afraid of, you know, because that's kind of bullying behavior. They're kind of afraid of the bully. So what you did that particular day, I thought was a pretty interesting move, which was, I will have a conver if I recall correctly, and you correct me for this, we I will have a conversation with you. Is that exactly how that went down?

01:18:27.079 --> 01:18:53.079
Yeah, that's exactly, yeah, you got it right. And I think you know the big thing about this too, and this is why understanding who you are, the self awareness of your your language, your emotions, your body, is so important, because in the moment, you know you're human. When someone's coming at you like that, it's difficult not to react, but your ability to respond is so important.

01:18:49.779 --> 01:19:07.439
Because, first of all, and this is very difficult, I think, sometimes, for people to to understand and know his behavior doesn't have anything to do with me that is about an important piece, yes, about who he is, not about

01:19:07.439 --> 01:19:11.520
who you're not taking it personal, right?

01:19:11.520 --> 01:19:25.939
Don't take it personally. It's like, okay, you know he's really cranked up here. That has nothing to do with me. I happen to be in the room with him, so I can't respond or react. Excuse me.

01:19:21.920 --> 01:19:50.439
React to that from the perspective of, this is about me. I can respond. From the perspective of, okay, who am I and what is needed? What is the situation call for right now, you know, so that it can be productive, so that I can, you know, make the best choice in terms of, you know what I say, and so I set that aside. I learned to set that aside.

01:19:48.039 --> 01:19:56.140
Doesn't have anything to do with me, but there's an issue that needs to be discussed, and how can we best have that conversation?

01:19:57.039 --> 01:21:10.140
Yes, and that it all starts with, um. Um, and actually, I think the language we probably often used was that language that I talk about a lot assuming positive intent. Like, yes, you wouldn't be in there if there wasn't something to be dealt with. Now, it's really hard to assume positive intent when somebody's barreling into your office and pointing at you and acting like you've done something wrong, but if you can start with that assumption that you made, which is, this has nothing to do with me, and I will talk to you, but not this way. Yes, and there's, there's a, there's an unseen thing happening that I am continuing to unfold for myself, of how that works, and I feel like you do this very well, which is being able to talk to the person that's hiding behind the behavior. Yes, on it's to see that person as a person while all hell is breaking loose in front of like they could be act, acting in just egregious ways, and somehow being able to like peer through that person does that is that, yeah,

01:21:10.680 --> 01:22:46.720
for me, because for over 30 years of leadership, I've had plenty of practice, so there's not too Many things that I haven't seen or had to deal with, or problems that I, you know, had to resolve. And so when I'm in a situation like that, I'm able to really look beyond who might be upset or, you know, angry, and I look beyond that to the person that I know. It's really the humanity, the empathy piece. And I, you know, look to to who that person. I think we all want to be good people walking on the earth. So that's the person that I talk to. I talk to that person. And when I can do that, it, you know, I've seen where it kind of visibly throws them off, because they're not expecting that. They're expecting me to kind of return the favor, if you will, to get triggered and and become defensive. But if I can speak to the person behind that anger, that frustration that generally, has served me well, and I'm consistent in that process. So once I I'm on that path, I stay on that path, no matter if they continue to escalate. I stay right where I'm at in my thinking, in my conversation. And it could be as simple as, how can I help you in this situation? This is what I'm prepared to do you share that this is what's going on. So let's focus on on this piece.

01:22:46.720 --> 01:23:50.079
Because what's, what's really the problem, I try to get to the root of it, because, you know, what we see is not the issue, right? So I'm going deeper. So all you see, just, you know, being a clinician, you know, I know if someone has, you know, they're hot and they're in pain, you know, they have this fever, you know, I can give you some Tylenol, but that's treating the symptoms. There's something that's creating the fever, something that's creating the pain, that's what I ultimately need to get to, because if that doesn't get dealt with, they're going to continue to have these symptoms. So it's the same thing when you're talking with someone, that what you see that emotion, and it's not always a bad thing. It could be good, you know, but whatever you're seeing is coming from something else, something is causing that emotion, you know, creating this scenario. So I try to go back to the root of the issue. So let's what's the problem where? What's the problem we're trying to solve for? Yeah, you know what?

01:23:45.579 --> 01:23:55.239
What do we want the outcome to be? And that it changes the it changes the narrative.

01:23:55.960 --> 01:24:04.260
Well, what's so tempting in that moment is to call someone out for their behavior.

01:23:59.260 --> 01:24:08.220
And what I feel like I've seen you do is call people up to their best self instead.

01:24:09.659 --> 01:24:36.619
Yes, I love that, and I haven't used that phrasing in a long time, but yes, that is what I'm trying to do, is to call them up to who they can be, you know, who they want to be, because most people don't want to be the raging, you know, maniac that's out of control.

01:24:31.279 --> 01:25:08.100
Um, so just calling them up, you know, like, is this the way you want to show up? You know, I don't use those words, but, you know, calling them to call them up to their better self, because we all have, you know, the good and the bad. But you know, how can you, how can you show up in a way that you're proud of? And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if I'm proud of you or not you. To feel good about yourself, and so that's what I'm calling you to so that you can feel good about yourself. You know, I showed up?

01:25:08.100 --> 01:25:24.859
Well, I did my best. What I value showed up, because I try to help people understand that if you value integrity and honesty, that's not negotiable.

01:25:20.720 --> 01:26:00.279
So you can't say you value honesty, but not today, because if I tell what I know, what I think or what I saw, that's going to get me in trouble. So when you respond that way, then that's a preference. It's not a value. You prefer to be honest, but it just depends on the circumstances. So these are the types of things that you're trying to get to when you're in conversation with people. What's important to you? Yeah, because if this is important, then the the behavior doesn't line up with what you say you want or who you say you want to be, and

01:26:02.680 --> 01:26:31.039
is that not a lot of our work is just consistently reconciling my behavior with my values and recognizing that there's another countervailing force that causes us to behave outside of our values, and then we have To work with that. We have to work with I'm honest, but if it's going to affect my bonus, I'm going to maybe fudge.

01:26:25.039 --> 01:26:31.039
Or I'm honest, make me look bad.

01:26:31.039 --> 01:26:43.479
I'm going to fudge. You know, where does what does it really look like to truly be there? And then what kind of changes does that afford that are for the better, right?

01:26:43.479 --> 01:28:19.020
Because you're talking about now you're talking about trust. You know, if we want people to trust us, there has to be alignment between what we say and what we do always, and if we fall short, which we will, then we make it right, you know, we apologize, we go back and say, You know what? That's not who I wanted to be in the moment. I didn't know what to do, I was afraid, and I made the wrong decision. But being able to say that lets people know, hey, you're on the journey. You may not be there, but you're you're on the journey. You're trying to do the right thing, and that and that matters. And so that's why the whole business of knowing what's important to you, your values, from your values, that that's the foundation upon which purpose is built. Because if you're living in your purpose, you're living something, you know it's important that I support people, that I provide them tools to be better leaders, better people and that. And once you have the values and you know what your purpose is, then you move. You move and live in your purpose for the balance of your days fall short. Get back up, you know, but you keep moving into me, there's there's nothing better to to achieve, to search for, to walk towards, um, then that purpose driven life.

01:28:21.060 --> 01:28:33.028
And is that not really, what this is is like, it's not like your purpose is set in stone. It's like your purpose is something that you're uncovering and reconciling each day. You know,

01:28:33.387 --> 01:29:54.399
right? Yeah, because you know what, it's always been there. So there's a discovery, there's the process, because we came here fully loaded with everything that we needed, but it's the process of life. It's the good times, it's the bad times, it's the hard times, it's the times of just absolute joy that keep us moving forward. And so when we think about it from that perspective, you know it's a refining process that's taking place. You know you're you know the things that no longer serve you, you can let them go. And as you're doing that you know you're growing more into yourself and who you want to be, and the business of things shifting and changing in terms of purpose. I believe that you're always still heading in that core direction. But sometimes you know you have to have different tools to get there, and you are refining. You know, sometimes you can't see things clearly when you first get started. So once again, that purpose was always there, but it takes shape in different ways.

01:29:48.340 --> 01:30:37.819
You know, maybe you thought that you were looking at like a flower or something. Mm. Then you discover there's a whole beautiful landscape. It wasn't just the flower, it was the trees, it was the grassy knoll, it was the rolling hills and the sunshine and the blue skies. It was all of these things. But when you first started, you just saw the flower, but that flower called to you, and so you said yes, and as you continue to say yes, and you continue to walk towards this purpose and this journey, things just unfold. And you you see so much more than you could have ever imagined.

01:30:38.960 --> 01:30:42.939
And to me, that is the beauty and the purpose of life.

01:30:44.140 --> 01:30:46.960
I could just sit and listen to you talk all day.

01:30:46.960 --> 01:31:15.720
Carolyn, you know what this is reminding me of is the the series of blogs that you wrote that became a book post these when you were the chief nursing officer before, and I'm assuming you're still writing, but tell me a little bit about how you gathered together those pieces and inspirational posts, because I feel like we just all just got one, especially around the purpose of life.

01:31:16.380 --> 01:31:23.000
Flower. Thank you.

01:31:16.380 --> 01:32:18.840
Thank you. Um, you know, I when I was asked to, well, let me back up a little bit. So as a Chief Nurse, we were trying to look for ways to just stay connected. You know, when you're responsible for like, anywhere between five and 10,000 just depending on where I was in my career, up to 15,000 people. You know, I can't interact with everyone every single day. So we came up with the idea of, like, creating a blog where I can just, you know, send out some inspiration. You know, we care about you keep going. And what ended up happening with that was, of course, I had to agree that, hey, once you start, you can't stop. You know, you gotta write something every week or every two weeks, whatever cadence we land on. And so what happened was I would sit at my table and I couldn't think of anything, nothing would come to me, and it would just take forever, and I would always find a quote would always anchor me, if I had a thought in my mind.

01:32:18.840 --> 01:33:30.680
And sometimes I find a quote that inspired me, that I would start writing. But what I learned to do was to just go in there, empty and open, and I learned to find inspiration in anything I can. Find inspiration in a rock, in a tree, in a piece of paper. I just, it just comes to me, and then I'll scribble a little note. I've written blogs about orange juice. I've written blogs about a tree, left turns, right turns, headlights, you know, because there's everything is revealing something, if we take the time to notice. And so that's all I can tell you. I sit there and once I see a thing, and then the writing that I just start writing. But yeah, and I'm not writing as much as I need to. Let me put it like that, but I'm but I tell you, I got a whole list of these scribbled notes and insights. So those are the beginnings of some inspiration that I hope will be inspiration

01:33:31.460 --> 01:33:35.899
well and and you your book is out for the world to see too, right?

01:33:36.019 --> 01:34:15.658
Like, yes, it's, yeah, yeah. Some call chasing hope, a nurse's reflections on healing and hope, and it's really for everyone. When I first starting, started writing these collection of blogs, it was more focused on nursing. But then I started getting emails and responses from people all over the organization, from the librarian to the EBS worker to the engineer. And so it became, there's always going to be a lot of health care in in things, just because that's a part of who I am. But not always.

01:34:11.939 --> 01:34:20.719
Sometimes I never even talked about patients or families or mission, just talked about life.

01:34:21.319 --> 01:34:28.219
And so the book is called Chasing hope, a nurse's reflections on healing and hope.

01:34:24.259 --> 01:34:40.719
And yes, it's available on Amazon. It's available through the publisher, which is duran's Publishing. And yes, out there, and and it's work that gave me hope

01:34:42.699 --> 01:34:58.960
it well, it gave me hope too. And I'm not often an advice giver, but I'm going to say that I think the best piece of advice I ever gave you was to make sure you could get that material so that it could become a book, because that material created.

01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:13.380
Lost in the in the bowels of the organization, on some computer files somewhere. And I said, Carolyn, whatever you have to do to make that happen. And you did, and they did. The organization helped you with that.

01:35:14.220 --> 01:35:35.420
Yeah, they did. And then I've, you know, I've added pieces to that. So some of the info, some of the writings in the book was just, you know, post chief, Nurse exec, and it was just me continuing my journey and and just some growing into where I am today.

01:35:29.960 --> 01:35:36.920
And, yeah, yeah, yeah, wonderful.

01:35:36.920 --> 01:36:31.399
It's a wonderful thing. So I'm going to highly recommend people go find that book, either at Durant publishing or at Amazon, which is all for all of us. It's the easiest place to go find books. It's kind of like you can buy a book from me because I'm the publisher, but I just send you Amazon. Yeah, directly to you, but, but I'm sure if somebody is listening to this, they may be thinking, wow, I would really love to not only read Carolyn's work, but maybe work with her, or I have a team that I would like to have work with her. So tell people about how to find you before I ask you the next the last question, which is, I always like to end the podcast by asking my guests to just, you know, offer advice or a question or something for the audience, what you'd like to leave the audience with. But leading up to that, how would people find you?

01:36:33.079 --> 01:36:45.340
Um, well, you can find me. I have my website. It's Reveley coaching us.com and just look up revelry, which means to wake up. And also on,

01:36:45.699 --> 01:36:49.479
let's spell it, r, e, v, e, i, L, L, E,

01:36:50.199 --> 01:36:55.300
yes, revely and and you can also find me on LinkedIn,

01:36:55.899 --> 01:37:06.119
yeah, and you post good, inspiring things on LinkedIn as well. And of course, we'll have it in the show notes, because people, a lot of times just go find it there. They may be in their car or something and can't write it down

01:37:06.239 --> 01:37:09.359
right now. Yes, yeah, sure, but that's how you can look me up.

01:37:10.380 --> 01:37:23.359
What would you like to leave people with in terms of a question, a challenge, something that you'd like for them to take away from this conversation, or something for them to have for their day or their week or more.

01:37:24.439 --> 01:38:19.618
You know I want, for those who are listening to know, I mean, truly know that you are enough, that you have everything that you need to be successful on your life's journey. You may not feel that way or see that right now, but there's opportunities for you to discover all of that through support. There's nothing wrong with reaching out to people who have the tools and the talent and the experience to support you on your journey. It doesn't have to be anything formal. You know? It could be someone in your community. Communities have sages, these wise people who know the way and can show the way, but never settle for anything less than a purpose driven

01:38:19.859 --> 01:39:01.319
life. Oh, life that's powerful. And what I can say without a shadow of a doubt is that if somebody's listening to this and going, Yeah, that's fine for her to say, but I can't do that. I'll say for both you and I, we've long way through a lot of stuff and anything less than you know, not a perfect life that led you to this, right? Anything. But so if you think you're in a position where that can't happen, I'd ask you to think again for those of you listening, because right?

01:39:01.680 --> 01:39:19.739
And just reach out. You know, ever know what someone has to offer? Don't look it. Look at it from the perspective of, I can't I can't afford this. I don't have time. You know, what can you do? What's important enough so that you can live your best life?

01:39:20.640 --> 01:39:38.479
Yeah, back to that question. What can you do? Focus on that? Yes. Beautiful Carolyn, I cannot thank you enough for being here. I'm looking forward to us continuing to stay in touch, and I'm looking forward to getting the responses from people for this podcast, because I know there'll be a lot of

01:39:39.260 --> 01:39:43.600
them, yeah, well, thank you for having me and for those real honor to be with you.

01:39:43.659 --> 01:39:47.020
I'm so glad. Thank you.

01:39:43.659 --> 01:40:28.460
And for those of you listening, if you are interested in continuing to follow what I'm putting out in the world, if you go to Lynn carnes.com you can sign up for the coaching digest, which is just a sign up button right there. I put out something pretty much every week, as well as these podcasts. Yes, so join us there, and in the meantime, we will see you on the next podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations, and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be of value for the listeners.

01:40:29.180 --> 01:40:41.979
Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it.

01:40:38.539 --> 01:40:43.600
Now I hope you go and do something very fun today. You.