# 20: Nahshon Cook on Love, Forgiveness, Healing and Communication
“The more you eliminate the need for control, the more you are open to communication.” -Nahshon Cook
If you have ever heard the phrase wise beyond his years, you are about to experience that. We barely talk about horses – although we do. We mostly cover fear, the need to control, what forgiveness means and so much more.
We started this conversation with me asking him how he connects pain as a gift – and after that, we were off and running. There’s no way I can do his words of wisdom justice. You will just have to listen for yourself.
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Intro:
Welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn:
Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes your host. Today I m speaking with Nashon Coo of Nashnn cook horsemanship. I met him indirectly via War ick Schiller's podcast where he was a guest in the fall. hat interview blew me away. It lso actually blew away Warwick, the host of the podcast. And you may remember I interviewed War ick in May, and we had quite the conversation about pers nal growth, about our journeys a out fear, and, of course, oth Warwick and the shadow horse an. And they are horsemen who understand how horses can t ach us whether we ever have anyt ing to do with horses or not. S if you've ever heard the ph ase wise beyond his years, yo 're about to experience hat listening to Nashon spea on this podcast. We do talk a out horses, but mostly we c ver fear, the need to control hat forgiveness means, and so uch more. I can't even begin to ell you how many quotes that am pulling just out of his particular podcast. I also by the way, follow him on Faceb ok. And he writes long posts whe e I have started copying them ver to my computer so I can ind them quickly because I read hem and reread them. Because e ery time I read them, I get ome another new nugget, whi h I think you will as well, when you listen to this podcast We started with me asking him how he connects pain as a gift. And after that we were just off and running. So there's no w y I really can do his word of wisdom, justice. You'll hav to listen for yourself. But le me tell you a little bit about im. His heart here's what he say in his bio. Nashon's Cook hear is for horses. He is a firs generation horseman an classical dressage trainer fro inner city Denver, who ha coached, competed and traine internationally in jumping an dressage. His current trainin interests lie in rehabilitatin inconvenient horses with majo mental, physical and emotiona training related trauma. H lives on and works on hi family's farm in Parker Colorado. This is one of thos conversations, I really want t hear what you hear what yo think. You can, of course always hit reply to my email i you happen to get this throug my list. If you're hearing thi and you're not on my email list you can go to my website at Lyn carnes.com/podcast. And there s a voicemail button to the ri ht, and you can click on that a d send a voicemail about what y ur reflections were on what y u thought about this. So it's s per easy to do. It also helps e know what people love for fu ure episodes. I hope of course that you will also share this w th your colleagues and friend . And enjoy this episode with N shon. Cook, Nashon, and welco e to the podcast.
Nahshon:
Thank you.
Lynn:
I cannot believe we're doing this. So I want because sometimes you you know what i here's my big lesson. If we're starting right out with this, if you don't ask, you're not gonna get anything. And I just asked you to be on the podcast. And y'all y'all who are listening don't know Nashan perhaps yet, but I feel like I have just been granted an audience with a wise person that nobody can get to. This is not true. That you I know. But because you are very accessible. But your wisdom is so strong. And I think I want to start by reading something so people can just get a flavor of what I'm talking about and why I'm pinching myself. Sure. So and I don't even I have so many highlights. I have seven pages of your writings from Facebook that I have just printed off. Because I keep capturing because I keep thinking I can't lose this. And you know, Facebook makes things down so you lose them. Yeah. So, I'm gonna start by saying, I'm going to read this one. My horses teachings changed me. They've grown me out of personhood and people fishness and turned me into a human being. That's the most beautiful road any one person could ever travel. The one that allows you to see everything you see is just a reflection of you seeing what you see. And the deeper I go into my pain, the easier it is to understand that people who gifted it to me so out of their own only point of reference for that particular shared space in past relationship, which allows me to have compassion for them, which is how I stay away from bitterness. Yeah. So I, what really struck me about that passage was that you put pain and gift in the same sentence. So say a little bit more about what's behind that initial. Oh,
Nahshon:
you know, so it started my understanding of it. You understanding pain as a gift started when I lived in Thailand. And I had, I was speaking with a monk. And he said that he has been struggling with headaches. And I said, Well, why don't you go get some Tylenol or Advil, he says, because if you go into the pain, it'll teach you something. He said, he said, fear fighting freely forward is karma at work. And so through being able to face what you are afraid of, and what's causing you this pain, it no longer has control over your life. It creates the space, it creates the space for a new point of reference, because you have, um, you know, our shadows only look so big, as long as our backs are to the sun. Oh, wow.
Lynn:
That's quite a statement. Okay. So say that, again, our shadows
Nahshon:
are our shadows are only so big, because our back is to the sun. When we turn around and face the sun, our shadow shadows usually disappear. And that's kind of what facing the pain is like, when you stop running from it. It has no power over you.
Lynn:
So did you learn that in Thailand or with horses? Or has it been a? How? How the heck, because, you know, I've been at this for a long time, I've been on a journey for well over 20 years. And what you're saying is, it's sort of like I know it intellectually, and I've occasionally experienced it, but I still think I let a shadow control me sometimes. So say more about how you've come to know this?
Nahshon:
well, you know, my mom taught me to trust my heart, and my heart taught me to trust life, huh. You know, I mean, and the thing is, is that whatever we want to learn, it's only as real as we believe, as only as real as we believe it's real. Right? You know, but you realize that there's a science to awareness and attention. And there are, there are documented processes and methodologies that teach you how to not allow the buisiness of the world distract you from the stillness of life. And, and pain, for me is part of the buisiness of the world. It's part of, it's part of the process of, of, of learning how to be alive instead of just living. You know, I mean, and it's just a, it's just a process of learning and, and understanding. But you understand, though, that the power of courage is only is is only as useful as your willingness to be vulnerable to that. Yeah, you know, you don't have the courage to face the pain if you're not vulnerable enough to the to acknowledge the pain.
Lynn:
And it's actually not courage, I guess, if you knew it would work.
Nahshon:
No, that's with
Lynn:
Yeah.
Nahshon:
The first step, the first step before you understand it, is having the courage to try and understand it, you acknowledge that it's a problem. You know, but then once you once you once you do that, and, and you see that it's possible to, to, to survive this and, and, and, and, and understand that, you know, that your, you kno , that your ability to stay roo ed in your breath, reg rdless of where you are, wil always, you know, if you tru t your breath, it'll get you thr ugh life.
Lynn:
Ya, no kidding.
Nahshon:
You know,
Lynn:
because we do, we do start, like, you know, when we get scared, we start breathing. totally differently,
Nahshon:
we lose our breath. But as long as we can focus as long as we can focus on our breath, regardless of what is happening, we're okay.
Lynn:
So what's the most difficult place where you've been? Where you were right at the edge of losing your breath? Because of the circumstances? And how am I wrong yourself back?
Nahshon:
Yeah, I Well, I think one of the scariest moments was my mom's bouts with cancer. Um, and I, I, I set a prayer, just asking God to let me know that everything would be okay. And there was a little old woman sitting at the end of my block, the first time that happened, and this is all I'll say about my mom. Um, but the first time that happened, and she and I waved at her, and it was October. And it was rainy. And I was listening to Ben Harper. And there's this beautiful song where he goes, I'm waiting on an angel to carry me home. Just might be. Well, I, I hope you come to see me soon, because I don't want to go alone. And I was listening to the song. And it was it was my mantra. And then he says, so be kind to a stranger. Because you'll never know. It just might be an angel knocking at your door. And this little woman named Elsa Maria was sitting on the fire hydrant, at the end of my block. And I waved to her. And she said, God told me to tell you that your mom is going to be okay.
Lynn:
Oh, my gosh, I just got chills.
Nahshon:
Wow. And, and she was I mean, we have all the help we want. If we if we if we have the courage to allow it.
Lynn:
Oh, isn't allowing such a, for control freaks allowing is maybe the hardest thing of all?
Nahshon:
That's and that's the challenge that a lot of people come in with horses, is that, you know, and, and with horses in with life, you know, communication ends when control begins. Yeah. You know, I mean, and it's, it's, it's, and it's, and it's and when you're trying to control, you're always feeling like you have to conquer something. And when you, you know, you have to conquer something to get to the next place, which is what a lot of horse training methodology is based on.
Lynn:
It is. And the reason I have gotten so fascinated with this is I came out of the corporate world control, domination, I go so far as to call it economic slavery, because even people who make a lot of money our back, you know, the golden handcuffs they are, they actually believe that they're no good or can't, I was one of them and less, they're making their paycheck. It's really bad. And so that control and domination, fear and intimidation method. And then I learned about, you know, I've trained under both different kinds of horse traders, that are sort of I'd call it the mechanistic way, which is do this and you get this result. And I've trained much more deeply in the trusting connection way, which is more like you trade well.
Nahshon:
There's, well, I there's room for it all, because the majority of my work is built around healing horses bodies. And I have to I have to know the science of the biomechanical structure. Yeah. But I also have to know that we protect what hurts, right? And so there's that process and horses protect what works and, and the thing is that in working with horses that are hurt, traumatized, emotionally, physically, mentally, you realize the limits of the person who did that to them, you realize the limits of their skill. And so that's part of the gifting of the pain. I have. I have these horses who come to me broken and, and it's understanding so like I went and I went and evaluated a horse that they want to bring to my barn because they've said surgery and it's been with some of the top veterinarians in the country and really big Beautiful Swedish, warm blood. And you know what the answer to getting this horse relax was taking a bit out of its mouth so that its tongue could move, and it could move the saliva and relax the muscles along the throat so that it could lift his back. And when he lifted his back, he was able to move. And so it's, I have to understand, I have to understand the technicalities of it. And I think that in my, in my it's not one or the other. It's not It's not the it's not I mean, it's important to understand the science of your aids, it's important to understand the science of your body in relation to the movement of the horse's body. Um, because they're these, you know, but but, you know, and, and, and it's, and it's not being binary, it's, it's trusting the whale of experience, enough that you've gathered all of this knowledge, and you pray for the wisdom to use it at the right time. So it's not, it's not one or the other because, you know, you know, you know, horses don't connect with you if they're not feeling good in their bodies when you ride. And so it's important, it's important to know how to get them moving in their bodies, because what happens is that, you know, when they engage their backs, you know, they hold you, they hold you, they, you, you don't have to find your seat, they give it to you, right. And so it's important, it's important to understand that, you know, a well written horse is like a beautiful poem. There's the technicality for the syntax of the line. There's, there's use of alliteration. There's rhyme scheme, there's rhythm, there's rhythm, it's all rhythm. It's all music, it's all a meditation, it's all a trance. But if you don't, if you don't have the mechanistic structure, in place, to where you can trust your body to hold you, you can't be present in your mind.
Lynn:
Well, so what? There's so many places we could go, but I actually want to acknowledge something that you just now did very beautifully. Which I'm going to say you avoided judgment. Because I was judging, I was judging the corporate world and said, it's bad. And you didn't go into that and say, Well, this other method of training is bad. You just said, This is what works. And that's
Nahshon:
because it's too easy. Right? If I'm judging, if I'm judging something that lets me know where there's hurt and myself that needs to be healed. There is no room for judgment. You know, I think that that's the that's what I meant. When I said the horses moved me from people, as people point. Human beings help. Right? Yeah. And that's the thing is that, you know, I mean, we, we, we, even in being a slave, that doesn't happen without our permission. Yeah. slaves to money, slaves to our work, slaves to other people, slaves to relationship. That doesn't happen without our permission.
Lynn:
Man. So I've got to let that simmer in because it does. I think freedom is
Nahshon:
freedom, freedom, regardless of where our bodies are. Freedom is a mental structure. Yeah. Freedom, freedom, freedom. Freedom comes from letting go. freedom comes from eliminating everything that doesn't evolve you. Yeah. No matter where you no matter where you are, and the brilliance about it, is that the more you are able to do that inwardly, the more your life changes outwardly,
Lynn:
yes.
Nahshon:
The more you eliminate the need to control, the more open you are for communication.
Lynn:
And the less you're going to feel free to control right? Hmm, the less you'll need to control, you'll discover you don't need to control right,
Nahshon:
the more the more you begin to understand that. You know that because for some versus for some courses that are incredibly dangerous, who have learned to just shut people out. It's important to know how to control them until they're open to communication. Right. So it's a tool It's a tool, and it's a tool that's useful. As long as you're the master. Mm hmm. Well, when it when it's the master, all you can do is be bitter. All you can do is try to be small or be big by doing stuff. And it's not about that it's about what is useful in this space and time, so that the end goal is a healthy, happy, open, breathing relationship. Right. Yeah. A really important key to a healthy relationship. healthy boundaries.
Lynn:
Yeah.
Nahshon:
You know.
Lynn:
So it's sort of like, you know, I'm getting this picture of sort of a yin and a yang, that it's,
Nahshon:
yeah, it's a balancing act. And I think that that's the thing is that we have, you know, we have the dualism, we have the binary we have the dichotomy, that's all control. But there's a whole world that lives between those two spaces. And that's where I live. Yeah, that's right. I live I live, I live in the river flowing through either side of the canyon.
Lynn:
Oh, that's a beautiful way to look at it. I am I'm writing a book actually, right now. And I'm calling it dancing the tightrope. Yeah, and that's the basic idea is, the tightrope is very narrow, and it's not stable. But on that, if you can, if you have the free heart to dance it, you're not caught on either side, you're actually integrated.
Nahshon:
Yeah, because once you do that, once you come to that place of trusting the surrender of it, then it becomes a holy thing. And in that holiness, we find our balance.
Lynn:
Well say more about the holy thing.
Nahshon:
Oh, it's just, you know, holiness, it's just possibility. For right,
Lynn:
holiness is just possibility. Well, and and so much more, right? What I mean, there's something in the way you say that?
Nahshon:
Well, you know, I mean, you know, it's possibility, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's knowing, like I said that everything that you see is just a reflection of you seeing what you see. You know, the shadow can be scary when you read when you don't know where it's coming from. When you know where it's coming from, you realize how big light can make you. It's just a, it's just a possibility. And that you end up in that regard. And that, like, what you choose to see, and where you choose to look determines what you see. Right. And, and the beautiful thing is, is that, you know, like when we are walking with our shadow with our back to the sun, what people usually don't realize is that we're holding hands with ourselves, you know what I'm saying? Like, they're, I mean, and and, and so it's this, it's this, it's this. And so you it's a way to really see how you are, or it's a way to see, be afraid of what you can be, you can be that big, you can be that big, and you can turn it around, and you can make it disappear. You know, it's all based on what you feel you want, what you feel you're worthy of right, because the journey can either be a really wonderful thing, or it can be a really terrifying thing. It can be something full of curiosity and communication, or it can be filled with something it can be filled with fear and control and being afraid but but but the thing is, is that 90% of the time, with people being afraid the reason they are afraid is one because they've learned it. And two, they don't have a substitute behavior to do anything else.
Lynn:
Bingo Yes? So this is all they know. What's it all I know when I do it,
Nahshon:
bring it right. And so like that's where the that's where in my work. I feel the holiness is my job is just to help find substitute behaviors. Why is being afraid valuable? That's a question. Nobody really asks. Yeah, and this thing, and this thing is super, it's it's controlling, it's controlling these people's lives and they've given the power to it, but they don't know why it's useful.
Lynn:
And and would you say there's any value in being afraid at times? Is there a Tom?
Nahshon:
I think i think that i think that I think that being afraid, comes when we feel like we're afraid that we're gonna lose control. But if we don't rely on control, then we realize that all we really need to do is take the next step. And it's like horses, though the quality of our next step under the next step is always predicated on the previous step, your transition from the truck to the canner is not going to be good. If the truck isn't balanced, yeah. Right, if it's not balanced, they're gonna just, they're gonna just run off and then we get tense and hold, and we get afraid, because we feel like we have lost control. And when we do that, we stop breathing, and we pull our stomachs in, and our arms get tight. And the thing is, is that then we're creating a biomechanical biochemical response into, you know, that says, oh, okay, my stomach's in my mouth. My involuntary muscles on my pelvic floor are lifted, which is releasing cortisol and adrenaline to my brain, which is telling me to hunched over and protect my organs in case I fall.
Lynn:
Which the horse feels all of that, right.
Nahshon:
Yeah, of course. And so do we. Well, my
Lynn:
heart, hmm, my toes clench. So what I noticed is my toes.
Nahshon:
And so there's that but there's that there's that biomechanical response, okay, so when the toes clench off times, also the butt contracted, and our quadriceps get tight. And because our quadriceps get tight, it closes our hip flexors, and doesn't allow our seat to follow the horse. And then our toes usually will be pushed out in front of our knees, or we get really stiff and bouncy, and the horse drops their back, and their head comes up. And then we start to pool.
Lynn:
Yep. All About been there. done that. Yeah.
Nahshon:
Yeah. And so and so in the practice, I mean, and it's, it's understanding that, like, the toes are super magical, and their ability to invite the horses back up into the rider seat. So you know, the first four toes, usually control the muscles in the shin, the tendons and ligaments around and behind the kneecap, and the, the, the quadricep, the pinky toe follows the growing muscle. And so yeah, and so if you can relax the growing muscle, then if you can relax the groin muscle, and let your body relax. Because what happens when you do that, when you relax your toes, your stomach, your abdominal muscles, relax. And so then the and so then the horse's body, the horse's hind legs can move into your seat and you're taking the concussion, you're taking the movement of the horse's body, into your back, and so then you start to follow. And so and so, you know, that and, and, and, and that's, that's, that's the first that's the first you know, process of, of learning how to be present in your body on a horse. Wow, is letting is letting them move you.
Lynn:
So that I remember having somebody tell me I had a dead seat?
Nahshon:
Yeah, and that usually is because you either pop up and down, or your seat bones move forward and backward at the same time.
Lynn:
Yep. I think it was mostly up and down or not much. Yeah, probably most actually. both at the same time, because I don't like disconnected at the waist, but not doing the back and forth.
Nahshon:
Right. And so and so what happens is like, if you if I mean and and you can really tell the relationship that people have with their bodies on the ground by how they ride their horses, because our movements, our movements on our horses, are, are very, are very natural to us. Like when they walk, we walk when their front leg, you know, when our front leg when in our and like our, our, our, our thighs, follow their front legs and every time there's their hind leg is under one of their hind legs or under our body, and they're about to push that hind leg back, our seat bone comes up, but at the same time, our thigh on that same side is forward and it's just like walking. And and and so like if people have dead seats, it's usually because they pull their stomach in too much. And they clump their their clump there they clamped their their elbows to their side. The horse hollows because they can't move. They can't. Because horses hind legs and being the concussion of it isn't being absorbed absorbed in the riders ribs is fine. So, like an easy way to just start feeling that is to let your elbows out a few inches either side, open up your rib cage. Yeah. Yeah. And that, and this goes back to the pain that people have gifted me with. It brings me this awareness so that I can teach other people this awareness so that the cycle of suffering is broken by knowledge.
Lynn:
And that's your purpose, isn't it? Like, you're, you're changing the cycle of suffering for horses and for people?
Nahshon:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and from that conversation I had with work. I mean, I, I've, I've given talks to people on on racial injustice, and on animal welfare. And, um, you know, Buddhists thought, you know, because all of these people hear this and they want to they, you know, when you're when you see beautiful things that help people feel a lot of folks want you on their team. But you know, I'm just a simple horseman.
Lynn:
No, you're not. Yes, Yes, you are. And No, you're not. So tell me about the talks you've done on racial injustice, because that one really strike first of all, it's for our time. And it is such a hot topic. I had a friend call it the third rail. And I'm sitting here as a white woman who doesn't know what I don't know. But, but I don't you know, a lot of justice. So what happened? What have you talked about on that?
Nahshon:
I've talked to so it was for a group of Buddhists who are working around, um, white Buddhist who were working around how to engage other white people in conversations about racism, and Ay, ay, ay, ay, ay framed the talk around the idea of, you know, Buddha didn't understand the suffering of people until he renounced his cloak of nobility. And when he renounced the cloak of nobility and the blindness that it enabled him to have by keeping him out of relationship with other people in their lives. He didn't know that it existed. And, and, and, you know, the Buddhist cloak of nobility is metaphorical for white privilege. Yeah,
Lynn:
that's where I went.
Nahshon:
Yeah. And so, if we, if we just, if, if we then lay down, if we if we have processes, to lay down that cloak of privilege, which will bring us consequently into relationship with other people, then we learn not because we want to learn, we learn because we're making art we're involving ourselves in other people's lives. Now, a lot of people assumed that I was just talking about white people. When I was talking about the, the the racism, but there's also a very deep intercultural racism among Blackpool. Yeah. And I have and I went and I had a competition in New Mexico, where it was held at an arena next to a racetrack almost all the groom's there were black. And when they saw that I had won the show, none of them came in talk to me. When they saw me walking a horse around everything was cool. And we were chummy. Right when they saw when they saw me in my shuttle regalia with this beautiful stallion, and we take the high point and and when the show it was gone. You know, wow, what
Lynn:
what is it? What is that? What's your take on what that is?
Nahshon:
Well, I don't like to make assumptions and I can only go from what I feel but the thing is, is that, you know, I'm My life is a very different life. Yeah. And, and I'm and my and, and there's a really strong tradition. have black horsemanship and equitation and really, really brilliant black horseman racers, you know, you know, as far as jockeys and yeah rooms who took care of horses, but also like you have like Tom bass, who was invited. I mean, and he was a saddlebred horseman. And you know, there were people who came from all over the world to watch this man's horsemanship. Mm hmm. Um, and he was invited by Queen Victoria for her Jubilee celebration with his marybel Beach, um, to come give an exhibition and, and he declined because he was afraid of the water. He is afraid of the ship that might be going across the ocean. Wow. But he was, but he was, he was born a slave. You know, and he had this gift, he had this gift with horses. And he was able, he was he, he, he, he had a gift, and he knew how to heal them. And he knew how to hear them. And in fact, he created a bit called the bass bit that saddlebred horsemen to this day use that he created for that mayor. Because the the bridle and the bid that they were using on her is what caused her behavior. I mean, he couldn't do math, he counted, he added up, he added he knew he he figured his money by kernels of, of grain and oats. He in his mind, he created this system of understanding the biomechanical structure of the horse's mouth and the tongue and the effect of the shank on the horse's jaw and pole and created a bit that is steel that is still used to this day and he was so great that like the owners of the railroads had his horses. I mean, he had their horses in training. He he, he he was the friend of I think he was he was the friend I think he found a teddy wrote when a teddy roosevelt horses, he trained um, Buffalo Bill Cody's a gray gray horse. Like he was he was recognized the world over as an equestrian genius.
Lynn:
Yeah, yeah. So, so they're, so they're, you know, I would guess that you are somewhat of an anomaly because I live just down the road from you've probably heard of, or maybe you haven't, but Tryon international Equestrian Center. They had the world Equestrian Games in 2018. And so dressage and showjumping and,
Nahshon:
yeah, just
Lynn:
Well, I've been over there a lot. And I have to tell you, I don't see very many black people over there. Nishan. So,
Nahshon:
yeah, and a lot of people and a lot of people don't have access, and, and, and, and, and but a lot of white people don't have access either. And then there are traditions of horsemanship among black communities, just like there is a horse horsemanship among white communities that I really don't agree with. Right. And my devotion, my devotion, my devotion to my horses, allows me to not live within the confines of the creative thing that Reese is. Because it's, it is it is, yeah, it's a it's a it's a creative thing. And, and, and, and you know, more than anything else, like you know, the people who are really in your round by what they think more than what they look like, my, my, my my work is born out of my devotion to horses, that two horses period, I will help whoever is willing to change in the ways that I know are able to help horses. It doesn't matter what you look like. But you know, my dad, my dad had an assignment for me that says only horseshit is allowed in my barn.
Lynn:
Only horseshit.
Nahshon:
Is that right? That only horseshit like leave your stuff at the door? Yeah, like and it's in the contract. It's in the contract. Look, you respect everybody here, horses, cats, people, the space you you respect it all, or you can't be here.
Lynn:
You know? And you know, Tristan Tucker is have you heard that name? Getting videos. One of my friends that does the cranial sacral work with horses Suliman posted something he wrote that said, you will not call horses names in my barn. We don't call certain horses jerks or assholes or whatever. Because no, it's not okay. And that sound? No, your your dad said that?
Nahshon:
Well, you know, because, you know, because, you know, the thing is, is that this is what I'm understanding with the, you know, we don't we don't do that to horses. And we don't do that to people. And people aren't allowed to do that to themselves here, like self deprecation, self deprecation. That is not helpful. And, and it's really easy to end and it's really easy to and I must admit, like it, I you know, it's really easy to call horses names when you don't understand what it is they're trying to tell you. And, and, and, and holding that space of presence is really hard. And I had to apologize to one of my students horses last week, because, you know, I did feel like he was being a total jerk until I realized that his back was still tight. And we needed to warm him up a little bit more like, and so like, I apologize to him. And I apologize to her, and we move forward. This isn't this isn't the process. This isn't a thing of perfection, because perfection is rigor mortis. Like there's no life in perfection. No, I don't need that. Right. It's rigor mortis, right? Like it's, there's nowhere to go. There's nowhere to breed. But it doesn't mean that progress. And it doesn't mean that progress must be absent of high standards.
Lynn:
That's the key because as soon as you say to people who want to have high standards, and that's a great way to look at it, and you say don't be perfect, or you say, you know, perfection is death or rigor mortis, or whatever, you'll get that pushback that says, Wait a minute, I'm trying to be great. And the answer is yes, you could still have high standards.
Nahshon:
And you can still read, and I'm an eye, and I want to be great. I want to be what I do, I want to be one of the greatest horsemen of my generation. But I understand that it's going to come not it's going to come from having the courage to teach people to have the courage to stop running from themselves. Oh my god. And when they do that, and they do that their training practices change, they start changing.
Lynn:
I'm sorry to interrupt, but that's going to change the planet, if you can stop that.
Nahshon:
Well, you know, I don't know. But I'm comfortable not knowing, I do know that I have a really wonderful ability with words. And I have a really wonderful ability, with people who are open to the sensitivities that I have in being able to diagnose things. Um, you know, and so, um, and, and it'll help you it'll help. You know, I mean, and if it, if it doesn't, like, I still have my farm, and I still have my work. And I still have these horses in there people who need my help. You know, I mean, I just didn't realize how many people wanted it. I opened up a five day intensive here, and there are people who are waiting for the back, keep the borders to open in Canada, so they can trailer their horses down for five days.
Lynn:
I believe it. Um, so you know, you know, your whole life, I feel like you're, you're your ability. So first of all, when I say it's going to change the planet, of course, I'm not putting all of that on you. But what I love that, you know, it's Go ahead,
Nahshon:
please, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I
Lynn:
was just gonna say what I've recognized is this thing you're talking about, about how we're so hard on ourselves, we beat ourselves up so quickly. And I feel like that's what stops us from changing. We think it's what makes us change. But it's actually what keeps us from changing and if we could somehow give ourselves a little bit of a break. I feel like that all of us would be kinder and we'd be living less in fear and we'd have more courage to be vulnerable. And demon so the reason
Nahshon:
why people are so hard on this selves is because they don't feel safe. They don't feel safe. They don't feel safe enough to be okay with where they're at.
Lynn:
So how, how do you help your students become safe enough to be okay with where they're at.
Nahshon:
I say, this is what your horse is telling me. And this is where the horse is saying that you're holding in your body and put your breath there. Put your breath there. And nine times out of 10. When they and the thing is, is that when I'm teaching, I can feel in my body where that person is holding in their body.
Lynn:
Yeah, you have that kind of empathy. Hmm.
Nahshon:
Yeah, I mean, like, I can, I can, I can feel it in my body. That's powerful. And, and, and so like, I, I have a whole, like, self care regimen that I have to do every day. Mm hmm. To get rid of that stuff.
Lynn:
Yeah, you can't carry that around. Yeah.
Nahshon:
No. Um, and so, you know, like, I mean, and so like, down to, like, the food I eat in the music that I listen to? And I don't have a television? Um, because it affects my body, it closes my body down.
Lynn:
Wow,
Nahshon:
I can't, I can't. Yes, really, it really, it's really, really weird. Um, and so my whole life is built around helping people in this way. And there are things that I have found that I need to do for myself so that I can be open to whoever comes. Yeah.
Lynn:
Do you feel like people find you the sort of the same way that the woman talked, he talked about the woman that told you what God had told her about your mom? Do you feel like people sort of find you? Sometimes that way?
Nahshon:
I think we're all each other's gifts of grace. I think we're, I think we're all each other's gifts of grace.
Lynn:
If we could only be open to that, and believe it?
Nahshon:
Well, you know, I would stay regardless of us being open to it. Because we all need help in one way or another. And there's always somebody there to help us if we have the courage to ask for it. Yeah, always. You know, and I think that, you know, it's been this kind of thing, where, you know, I've had, I've had people try to put like, this savior complex on me, and I'm just like, you know, this is the thing that, like, I'm really nothing special. In except for the fact that I believe, I believe that, I believe that. We're all worthy to be loved. And I tried to, and I try to do that. The best I can. But what you find is that there's some people who don't feel like it. And they and so they don't, they don't accept it. And that's not my problem. Right, you know, I just, I just, I, I dust off my shoes, and I keep rolling.
Lynn:
Right? Well, and I could, I could see people doing that. I mean, I could see people putting a saver savior complex on you, because you do speak a lot of words of wisdom, especially for someone as young as you are, because you're you're what in your 30s I'mguessing.
Nahshon:
Yeah, I just turned 36 Oh, happy
Lynn:
birthday. So yeah, that's, um, that's a pretty young place to be. And to have the level of wisdom. There's a place in consciousness though. There's a place in the consciousness of life where he doesn't matter. Now, that's a very that's very true.
Nahshon:
You know, there's, there's, there's a there's a place where you really begin to understand like, our bodies are like our cars, like we get in them and we get out of them. Yeah, they break down, they break down and we get a new one. You know, like that's, and and and like that's and and like, you know, you can have a new car. You can have a you can have a you can be 60 years old in a 2021 car. That's kind of what bodies are like.
Lynn:
Yeah.
Nahshon:
Yeah, you know, I mean, it's I mean, it's it's so the thing is, is that, you know, it's, it's understanding that it's understanding that, you know, in the experience of buying that new car, we have knowledge of what we need it for? Do we need a truck for the mountains? Do we need a truck for mountains? Do we need a sports car for it? Do we need a sedan for the city? Right? Like, what do we what do we need it for? You know, I mean, and there's this place where there's this place where you begin to understand that, that the deeper you go into the breath, and the deeper you go into life, and the Soul of the World and understand what makes it work. Like there is there there are laws to everything. You know, and, and like, and like, and you realize that you're that you can only, you know, people are in this experience to do one of two things to help or learn to help. And that's it. That's the only way pain can be a gift. Right? If you
Lynn:
say that, again, you helped me understand that more to help you learn to help,
Nahshon:
either help you to help, you know, if somebody hurts you. And you understand that they're hurting you out of that only point of reference for their relationship. Back Pain is help. Right? And human beings help people who are are learning to help.
Lynn:
So even So what you're saying is even when it appears that someone's doing you wrong. And there's plenty of that every day, it could be intentional or not intentional. I just, I'm just finishing and I'm about to publish the book called the elegant pivot and inspired move for navigating corporate politics. And it's about assuming positive intent as a strategy to pivot from assuming negative intent, which I can be very good at. But I'm also learning to assume positive intent, meaning I'm accepting. Right, right. And I feel like that's what you're saying is, and you're taking it to a whole nother level because I have four characters in my book, accidental Annie, blameless, Bobby, provocative Peter and fighting Francis and they all have different places they're coming from accidental Annie does something to you and has no idea is not even in relationship with you could be somebody cut you off in traffic, you know, blameless Bobby says something to you and doesn't realize they've hit a trigger point and upset you. provocative Peter actually is kind of poking at you.
Nahshon:
So So, you know, I didn't really understand this. Until, I mean, I really, really didn't understand this. Until 2014, when I had come back home. And I watched the news report of one of my first cousins murder. Oh my god. And she was shot eight times. 31. And, oh, wow. And, and, and her and, and the guy who killed it was acquitted. And I thought, you know, and then just going into that, like, my aunt will always be a mother who buried one of her children. Right. And the pain of that. And her siblings will always be the older sibling who buried their youngest sibling,
Lynn:
right? Oh, I can't even imagine this.
Nahshon:
And you realize that they've left all of us behind. They've left all of us behind. And you know, I wouldn't and and, and the biggest thing that I have had to do for myself was detach myself from this idea of justice um so that I would not drowned in the hope of something horrible be falling the man who murdered her. I saw the pictures of her body laying down with bullets in it. And and I was driving one evening. And it was after we hit buried her. And she showed up in my car. And she talked to me for two hours. And I listened to her. And I knew that whenever I needed something I could always just ask her and that I didn't need her body to have access to her heart. have access to to to her presence. Mm hmm. Her car broke down. Right meaning her? Like car? Yes. Yeah. But I still have access to the driver, I can still call the driver up on the phone. Wow. And when you understand that, there's a whole lot of stuff a whole lot more hidden makes more sense.
Lynn:
Well, it seems so because is that what lets you put down the wanting justice? Was that what how do you? How do you put down? Because
Nahshon:
it doesn't matter what happens to him? It doesn't it doesn't matter what happens to him. That work is the damage is done. And it can't You can't It doesn't matter. It doesn't it doesn't matter what happens to him. Because you know what? He has to live with that choice. If I spend my time, if I spend my time hoping. And then that's not to say that I don't get angry. And that's not to say that, that I wasn't angry rather. And it's not to say that I didn't, that I didn't that I I didn't want to share with him the pain that he had inflicted,
Lynn:
right? Because because that's just what he
Nahshon:
did understand is that it wouldn't have any value. It wouldn't have any value, it wouldn't change anything. Right? I just want you to know that this is how you met he will never understand the extent of my pain. And the only reason why forgiveness is possible. Is because me we me wanting me wanting him to be a reprimand me wanting a reprimand for that. Still, if he was in prison rotting he wouldn't understand how him putting that blew through her head made me feel okay, he just wouldn't be able to do it. He it wouldn't matter right now that's not to say that that's not to say that we don't need to be protected from from from dangerous people. But what more I'm more interested in what are the circumstances that make people dangerous? What is the root cause? Why is why is dangerous useful and why then can People who are well connected, just pay their son's way out of facing justice. It's not a real thing. It's only as real as we believe it is. And it's only real for certain people. There are certain people who know that they will, because of what they have and who they are, that they will never, never have to own up and face the consequences of the pain that they inflict on other people. Mm hmm. So it's not about punishing them. It's about it's about changing the circumstances with which they are able to do that. That's the only way that we can make sure it doesn't happen again. It's not about punishment. It's not punishment. It's love. Yeah, it's
Lynn:
love. It's loving me.
Nahshon:
The world is very small. And love is bigger. But how can we have it be big enough to where everybody feels that that's the only thing I'm interested in? When
Lynn:
what strikes me is your approach of basically allowing him to live with what he did is actually a lot more painful for him in a way, whether he gets it in this way, then to say, we're going to meet justice out.
Nahshon:
On top of, you could be in prison, he could be in prison behind bars off of our tax money. And still not feel one ounce of remorse for what he did. Right.
Lynn:
And you're not carrying the patriot. The key is you're not carrying hatred.
Nahshon:
No, because I'm not afraid. I have a substitute behavior.
Lynn:
Isn't that yet? It's something else besides being afraid that your alternative behavior?
Nahshon:
Yeah, that's the same problem. That's the same approach for people with horses.
Lynn:
Well, that's exactly what I was just thinking because one of the principles, he called it a law, but it's true. I've learned you really can't stop a horse from doing something but you can allow and cause him to do something different. So this isn't what we want. Let's just keep Okay, okay, we're not going there. But we'll go over here, but we're not going to try to stop something, we just change it we pivot.
Nahshon:
Right? We how can we make the you know, the process of training horses lay in, in understanding? How can we make whatever behavior that you're exhibiting useful? Right. And if they're being naughty, there's a reason why they're being naughty? Does the saddle not fit? Is the bit hurting their mouth? Are their muscles tired? Did they have enough food before we saddled them so that that, you know, the saliva is coding their stomach? And they're not getting ulcers from the the stress of the work? Like there's all of these things? Is there a dead mouse on the in the on the, you know, that they can smell in the kickboard? Yeah, you know, and there's all of these things, there's so much more, there's so much more that happens in our relationship to horses. When like, I have a horse here, and she came because she was really, really, really explosive. But she was really, really, really explosive when her back wasn't up, which would make sense because then her, you know, her her spine as processes will start to touch each other. And that her then
Lynn:
yeah, of course, and we're when we were in pain, we jerk, you know, you touch a hot stove, you can't help but jerk your hand back your jerk is reactive, right?
Nahshon:
To help it. We're super reactive. And you know, and so it's like, and so I mean, and that's where I think the paradigm shift and training theory must come. They I think that people must understand that the spiritual connection to horses is not a lack of training. It's training out of that spiritual connection. Wow.
Lynn:
Yeah.
Nahshon:
And, and, and it's understanding that and it's understanding that, you know, there's a driver inside of that horse's body that has taught them and life has taught them, that what they that the feelings that they have are real. Mm hmm. You know, and like if we and if we begin to work on that have just shared driver hood. Right, right.
Lynn:
Driver, which is the spirit in the car, you know?
Nahshon:
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. What if we cheat? What if we train out of that, please? then then then there's a very, very clear, ethical line that is drawn. Right. You know, I mean, this is this is the importance, this is the importance, and this is where, you know, you know, letting go of a lot of the peer pressure from dead people that tradition is, this is where this is helpful.
Lynn:
Yeah. I mean, I think I just heard you say that you had that you that you just said peer pressure, right. Tradition is peer pressure from dead people.
Nahshon:
Yeah. That's what all of our training theory is based on. Yeah. Right. It's based on the commodification of horses.
Lynn:
So is that why we posted the thing about the art of riding from the different riding schools with long histories that is more spiritually connected or
Nahshon:
even the history of those schools like Sylvia Locke has a book called dressage, and it's the history of of dressage that goes way back. And, you know, there's there's always been a line of horse practitioners that understood that deeper connection with horses. Yeah. And, and there's always been, there's always been the people who forced them. This is not a new conversation. Yeah. But the thing is, is that, you know, the horses that I have, wouldn't have been able to use you because they wouldn't be used, there would be no theory built on them, because they just they will they do what they tried to do to them. Now. They just don't they chew them. Yeah, they euthanize them.
Lynn:
They say that they're not salvageable. So they take them out.
Nahshon:
But I'm interested in their stories. Yeah. Because, you know, those horses bodies hold the stories of the people who made their bodies that way. And I want to understand, I want to understand, because when I have a really, when I have a horse that comes in, it is really, really, really easy to think that whoever did this, to them was the biggest asshole in the world, when I but but I can't do that, because I understand that horses end up like this. When understanding is last, man,
Lynn:
that is the ultimate and forgiveness and and as I call it, assuming positive intent. And Shawn,
Nahshon:
it really yeah, it Yeah, it's like, what what if this broken horse's body is the best that this person could do? Yeah. And this is why I teach instead of compete. Yeah. Because I don't want more horses bodies breaking down. Right? I don't want I don't want I don't want more students feeling like they aren't worthy, because they're not learning fast enough. Or they don't have these these abilities in their bodies that I do. Patience is the key to it all.
Lynn:
Oh, my gosh, patience is so critical. And I saw on a I watch Heartland. I don't know if you've ever seen this show. I love this show. It's about people rescuing horses. So it's a series on Netflix. But one day one of the guys said, in training a horse. He said, when you approach the horse, if you act like it will take 15 minutes it will take all day. If you have all day, it'll only take 15 minutes. Well, those leaves like precious
Nahshon:
Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's working from a spiritual place. When you don't when you don't have a timetable. You make really, really brilliant progress. When you have a timetable. You you you don't make the progress you need. Yeah, it takes the time it takes and when time doesn't matter, it takes less time.
Lynn:
When time doesn't matter, it takes less time. I've experienced this a lot myself.
Nahshon:
But it's the same with people. Because what you're saying is like look, I'm giving you all the space you need to feel safe enough to under to take the time that you need to understand What I'm asking you to do. Mm hmm. And, and and even more still, you're taking responsibility and saying, This is what I'm asking you, but what are you hearing me say?
Lynn:
Oh, what a brilliant question.
Nahshon:
Right? What are you hearing me say? Because if you're giving me an answer that I want, then maybe you're hearing a different question than the one that I'm intending. So what is the intent behind the question? Because that's what horses here. Right? And really, that's, that's what humans hear. They don't hear the question. They hear the intent behind the question. And this is where this is where and if we can change the intent behind the question. It totally, lets go of the need for control.
Lynn:
Wow. Yeah, I've heard it called. I work with a guy named Bruce Anderson. He has a he calls it natural human ship. And he watches me do what he calls double tonguing. Which means I'm sort of saying go stop at the same time or whatever. I'm giving some kind of
Nahshon:
Yeah a double blind message.
Lynn:
Yeah. And so the board is sitting there going, you told me to go left. And you told me to go right. And so now I'm like, you know, and I'm not aware necessarily that I'm doing that.
Nahshon:
Right. Right. Right. You
Lynn:
call it a line message?
Nahshon:
It's a double bind message. It's a cycle. Yeah. It's a psychological term.
Lynn:
That Yeah,
Nahshon:
yeah. And so you know, I mean, and that's the thing is that is that, you know, I mean, and like I can, I can and it's like I can hear I can there have been questions that I've heard you asked, but I heard the intention behind the question. Mm hmm. Kind of like the idea. Are you were you held yourself back of asking about the idea of reincarnation, when I talked about the driver in the car
Lynn:
job? I tell her catching that, because I was about to go there. And yeah,
Nahshon:
I heard it,
Lynn:
I heard that you heard that part. Good
Nahshon:
for you. That's awesome. So, you know, I mean, this is, this is what being present me. And, and, and and in the course of this conversation, because you're present to each other, we haven't realized that an hour and 11 minutes has already has
Lynn:
I this is very true. And we could do keep going for five days, because now I really understand why you have to have a five day program.
Nahshon:
Right? Because we're barely started. Right? And this is and so this is, and so this is this conversation is the conversation of presence. Connection is connection is being present. It's not some mysterious, psychological, esoteric thing that, you that, that that, you know, we just get by osmosis, what we kind of do get it by osmosis, because we have a breath. And we have a mind. And we have the ability to focus. And, and, and, and decide when where we're gonna be. So we're focusing on this conversation, but we're aware of time, and we need those two things. Right. I'm focused on you, but I was aware of your telephone ringing. Uh huh. You know, I'm
Lynn:
supposed to be
Nahshon:
sleeping here. Yeah, you know, like, all of these. There's all of these things, and there's all and and that is feel that feel that's no. It's saying this is what I'm asking you to do? And I'm focused on my question. I'm focused on how I'm asking you to do it. But I am aware of what you hear me saying.
Lynn:
Yeah. I am writing that question. And I'm putting it in my list. I keep a list of good questions. That one may go at the top. Yeah. I'm serious. Because so often, you know, you wonder why somebody isn't following through or doing but you haven't asked them? What are you hearing me? Ask
Nahshon:
what are you hearing me say? Yeah.
Lynn:
Any em up to be able to say, this is what I'm hearing and then you find out almost nobody is being a jerk on purpose. That was the whole point of my elegant pivot book. They really are. And now sometimes they actually are. I mean, once in a while, I call that when Friday, Francis, they are trying to be a jerk,
Nahshon:
but I have actually found it's useful. And they learn. They learned that it's useful. And they're doing it and they're doing it because They're hiding their hurt.
Lynn:
Yes, I always say it's offloading pain. They're the ones that are offloading their pain. And what I've also found is that even when you know they're in a full on attack, if you can still assume positive intent, and this is a very high order, but either they will come, they will convert is almost a word, they will they will change, and be grateful for not having to be as much of a jerk, I had a guy actually say to me, I didn't have to be an asshole. Because you allowed me that, or they will become it will be so obvious that what they're doing is that their their attack doesn't actually work.
Nahshon:
It's you, they're attacking you out of being afraid. Yeah. And so that goes back to the question that one, we don't have to be ashamed of being afraid. And that's why people are aggressive. Because they're working out of this place of not wanting to leak.
Lynn:
Yeah. Oh, that's a big one in the corporate world. We cannot look bad you can bake?
Nahshon:
Well, it's it's, it's it's a big thing in just Western society. Yeah. It's true, you know? I mean, and it was kind of like, it was it was it was kind of like, it was kind of like the the statement, it was cut? Well, you know, well, it's, it's, it's, it's there. They're there. There's a lot of when you have to feel like you're protecting yourself. And you have to be hard. It's just as bad as being a pushover. The person pushing over and the person being pushed over. They're running from the same thing.
Lynn:
Right? It's just, it's that dichotomy, either side of the river you talked about, right? It's Yeah,
Nahshon:
it's the cliff. It's the cliff on either side of the river. But it's but I want to know, I like being in the river. Because that's where the questions that are waiting to be asked live. What is the reason you're like this not you're like this, and you must change? That's not what I'm interested in.
Lynn:
So am I, you know, with this approach, I feel like we could heal so many of the divisions that we have. And I'm not going to go down there. But have I promised you an hour and we're we're over that time? Well, we know what you want to say about?
Nahshon:
Why is it valuable? Why is the division valuable? Why is race valuable? Hmm. Because if it wasn't valuable, it wouldn't be a theme. Right? What Why is it? Why is it valuable? That inherently, we You and I, outside of this conversation of presence, are still fighting to be equal? Why is that? Why is that conversation still being had? Right? Why is it something that must that we try and force each other to acknowledge or deny to the point of calling people terrorists because they're like, there's an injustice of black bodies being murdered and brought down and failed like trees, and we just want you to know that we feel like that shouldn't happen. That's not terrorism.
Lynn:
No,
Nahshon:
you know what I'm saying? No, it's
Lynn:
not terrorism. That's saying, hey, you didn't hear me when I got it's like, hey,
Nahshon:
look, you've crossed the boundary.
Lynn:
This is no different. Yeah, the boundary
Nahshon:
over and over and over and over again. Yeah, and and like, we just want you to stop. And we don't want you to have an excuse. Yeah, we'll burn down we'll burn down buildings instead of kill people. Why? Because people matter. People matter first.
Lynn:
And, and, you know, people get so offended because it's like, do you know how much that building was worth? You're wasting money. And I put quotes around Yeah,
Nahshon:
I mean, like, the building is in service of the of the car, whose driver you just pulled out of the steering wheel,
Lynn:
right? Well, right, which one's more valuable
Nahshon:
the building has no value without, you know, places or only places because people are in without anybody there when I was in China, they have built whole cities where nobody lives.
Lynn:
Really?
Nahshon:
Yeah. Just to keep the economy going. They have built whole cities where nobody lives.
Lynn:
Well, with all the crowding in China, why wouldn't some of those people want to go move to the city where there's space?
Nahshon:
Well, because there's no jobs. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, the work was to build the building that nobody would live in,
Lynn:
just so they had something to do,
Nahshon:
just so they could keep the economy going by giving money to workers. Wow. That's out of balance. And so the thing is, is like, when you have that perspective, when you have that perspective, there's a whole lot that changes. That, you know, the building is only valuable, as long as it's in service to people.
Lynn:
Mm hmm.
Nahshon:
This is so true. You know, and like, why are we using this building and building as an excuse for people not to, to see each other? And then, and then why is it only Okay, for certain people to destroy buildings? Right. Right, right. Well, and why is that? Why is it okay, for the people who say that you shouldn't destroy buildings? Why is it okay for them to destroy buildings, and nothing happens? The problem? You know, and this is the And why is that? Because, because they're afraid that because that building no longer represents that dominance that that group of people once had.
Lynn:
Well, isn't terrorism. A word for? It's a way we label what people do to be heard, when they don't have power?
Nahshon:
Exactly. Right. And isn't that? And isn't that what we do to ourselves, our own bodies? And isn't that what we do to other people's bodies? And isn't that what we do to our horses bodies? Because because we feel like we're losing control.
Lynn:
So it's
Nahshon:
all about control and being afraid. Yeah, we're running from a part of ourselves that we don't want to see where we are backside to the light. And we're running from our own shadow.
Lynn:
What a visual. Wow. That's a that's so powerful. I, I am I'm gonna start wrapping this up. But I have a way I don't really ask because you've got horses, you got to go train. I actually was supposed to have a riding lesson today. But we canceled it's not not an appropriate weather day to be out there today. But I, I often asked my podcast guests this last question. And then I'm going to tell people how to find you, of course. And it's this one. And I have no idea where you'll go with this. But I know this question is going to resonate with you, which is what if, if you could ask anything of the people who are listening? What would it be?
Nahshon:
To honestly Take a deep breath. And really listen to how it makes you feel. Figure it feel where you're not allowing it to touch and explore why you feel like you have to protect yourself from yourself in that space. And that, and and then when you get there, and you have the courage to explore that or not. The only thing that will stop you is if you don't feel like you deserve to be healed. And so my question would be, do you feel like you're worthy to be better than you are? And so that's the place to start.
Lynn:
If someone is feeling unworthy, and can't get themselves out of the cycle, what would your suggestion be to stop themselves from getting in? You know, I've heard it called a shame spiral. But how would you How would you ask somebody would they need to get a counselor or a therapist go work with him. Horses find a coach, is there a question they could ask themselves? What would be the best way out of that spiral?
Nahshon:
I think the first thing is to acknowledge that the pain is real. Because and, and and I'm also gonna say this, I've known people who did everything that they were supposed to do. Um, nothing worked. So I'm not saying that I'm not saying that it's a perfect world that has all of the answers outside of yourself. But I, I do know that. Um, I think that I, well, I do know that like, sometimes wanting to be better, is reason enough for trying to get better. Right, and so and so. And so, um, and in doing that, whether it's a significant other, or children or animals or something like that, like find finding something to be better for, if you're not enough to be better for yourself finding something to be better for, and then trying trying to find the support to make that happen.
Lynn:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that is that mean, because it's,
Nahshon:
it's an acknowledgement that life is is super tough sometimes.
Lynn:
Well, what you're really talking about is that we're all all on some kind of journey, some kind of path. And the life of presence isn't about achieving the goal or getting something or anything like that.
Nahshon:
It's not about feeling good. It's not about feeling good. And it's not about feeling bad. It's about feeling what's needed, what you what you need, what is to be felt.
Lynn:
That feeling might be felt, yeah,
Nahshon:
my mommy told me once she says, Listen, when you stop running away from what you think will make you feel sad, and you stop running towards what you think will make you happy, you find yourself. And that is, and that's a good place to be so strive softly.
Lynn:
Softly, your mother sounds amazing. What a good, she's
Nahshon:
wonderful. Yeah.
Lynn:
Are you going to have her in your programs? Will she be there to visit with me? Does she live near you?
Nahshon:
Can we have a big farmhouse?
Lynn:
Oh, nice.
Nahshon:
Yeah, so we all live together, she runs. She runs my business part. Really good.
Lynn:
Yeah, um, I'm going to ask you to stay on as we wrap this up, because I want to visit real quickly after we hit recording. Sure. But tell tell people how they can find you.
Nahshon:
Well, right now, the simplest and easiest way, I have just have a Facebook page. Yeah, and that's the that's the easy all my contact information. Is there. Yeah. Um, I, it might take me a while to get back in touch with you. But I will.
Lynn:
Yeah, well, and so I've probably talked over he said, What he said was Miss Nishan. Cook. And that's in a H. Sh. O n cook. Course. Yeah. And you'll have a link to that in our show notes as well. But there's some times people are driving down the road and they want to remember it.
Nahshon:
Perfect. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Your
Lynn:
Facebook is wonderful. And so I am so incredibly grateful for this, we may just have to have a round two at some point.
Nahshon:
Yea let me know
Lynn:
Because this I could continue doing this for a very long time. But thank you, thank you. Thank you for joining this. And I know so many people will be grateful as well. And, guys, I'll be posting this on Facebook. Be sure and put in your comments after you listen to it. And let us both Nishan and I know what you think about this conversation. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also if you happen to know someone who you think might love them Please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
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