Jennifer Dunn of the London Abused Women's Centre: The Journey to Justice

katie mares (00:01.462)
Hi, I'm Katie Maris and this is the Ladies Take Control podcast. We have a special guest with us today and I have been looking so forward to connecting with her. Jennifer Dunn is the executive director of the London Abused Women's Center. She has been with them for 13 years and she plays a pivotal role in advocating locally, provincially in Ontario and nationally at all levels of government. Her mission?

and the mission of the center is to take systemic action to end the oppression of women and girls. During her time at the London Abuse Women's Center, she has appeared before the House of Commons and the Senate. In her personal life, Jennifer is a mother to twin boys and enjoys spending time outside in her garden. Jennifer, I am so excited to have you here. First of all, I have no green thumb.

but I do have twins. So I know what it's like to raise two babies at once and you are a superhero for just doing that all in itself. But you are also wearing a cape because you are helping women find their voices. And I just, I'm ridiculously excited to have you here today. So thank you for being here.

Jen Dunn (01:21.583)
I'm really excited about the opportunity. Thank you so much for having me. I did not know that you had twins. We'll try to avoid that topic throughout your whole podcast and talk about what we're actually here to talk about. But that's so exciting. I love meeting other twin moms. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.

katie mares (01:40.47)
Well, I, yeah, I know we can do a whole podcast on twins, I'm sure, that we could do that another time. But yes, I would really love to just dive right in if you're good with that. The place I wanted to start, before we get into all the incredible things that the London Abused Women's Center does do and what you do to help women, I think it's important that from an abuse perspective,

Jen Dunn (01:45.017)
Yeah, yeah.

Jen Dunn (01:51.751)
Yeah, let's go for it.

katie mares (02:07.042)
The women listening, women and men by the way, and I was mentioning to you just via email that the outpouring of men that have come my way since I started this podcast was a bit of a surprise about how they also experience domestic violence and abuse within an intimate partner relationship. But I think it's important to understand, what is abuse? Because a lot of victims will...

Gaslight themselves, they will think it's my fault, it's really not that bad. I know for myself personally, I 1000% convinced myself I was the problem and if I could change, then everything would be okay and I didn't consider myself a victim of abuse at all. So I think it's important conversation to be had, like what is abuse and how do you identify it?

How do you help women identify it?

Jen Dunn (03:05.343)
Mm-hmm. That's a really good starting point. And I think it's very important to mention that yes, there are men that are abused too. But one really important statistic is that, and I think this one is from 2022, 78% of police reported intimate partner violence cases were involving female victims. And so while yes, there are...

male victims and survivors of domestic violence. The fact of the matter is, and the reality is, is that women are abused more and women are often the victims or survivors in those types of situations. And so there is help available. There are organizations similar to ours that provide support to.

men just to be clear off the top because we you know we get those kinds of calls here at our center as well where a man will call and say where do I get help or what about me and that does exist as well but what we're here to talk about is violence against women. So there are many different types of abuse and so oftentimes at our center

katie mares (04:22.029)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (04:31.595)
we might have a woman who calls and says, well, you know, he didn't hit me. So I don't know if I, you know, I don't know if I'm eligible for services, he didn't hit me. And the important thing to know is it's not always physical. And oftentimes it's, I don't wanna say something is better or worse than something else, but there are a lot more pieces of

all of this aside from physical abuse. So we could talk about harassment, sexual violence, emotional abuse, financial abuse, spiritual abuse, course of control, technology facilitated abuse. There's so many different kinds and one doesn't mean you were more abused than another, right? And so really one of the big kind of overarching

pieces when we're talking about abuse is power and control. And so oftentimes abusers have the desire to maintain power and control over their intimate partner. And that's what it's all about, whether that is with physical or emotional abuse. And so that's kind of where we start with all of that. Literally, when women come into our center to access service,

One of the first things that we do is safety plan with them. That's number one key. Obviously everybody needs to be safe. But from there we start talking about power and control. And we have this image of a wheel. And excuse me, power and control is in the middle. And then all of the different types of abuse kind of create a pie around this wheel. And all of them are equal parts.

katie mares (06:05.174)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (06:27.306)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (06:29.211)
I'm trying to be very descriptive so you can maybe get an idea of what I'm talking about. And there's different tactics to each part of power and control too, right? So yeah, so that's kind of where we start with abuse.

katie mares (06:31.134)
Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.

katie mares (06:43.378)
Yeah, I've never heard that definition and outlining the power and control. It actually gives me like, I can't lie, anxiety as I listen to this because it's exactly what I personally experienced. And it happens in all forms and we often will sweep a lot of those forms under the rug because we don't think it's...

really that bad. But when there is a shift in the power dynamic in a relationship and that control comes into play, the victim, I mean, it's hard pressed to do anything about it. And so I love that you give that help and that understanding to women first. And I think that's the first step in taking your power back in shifting that dynamic is realizing that there is

Jen Dunn (07:11.774)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (07:38.898)
an imbalance in that relationship. A lot of women, and maybe these are the stats that I find is 77% of abuse victims stay silent. Do you find when women come to you that they have a hard time sharing their story, that they have a hard time speaking up even in the safety of the center? And you show,

that one of your missions is to bring awareness, you know, ending violence, male violence against women and girls' personal and girls' needs, social and political and for the political change.

This is a lot of the reason why this podcast exists for me is to end that silence and is to bring awareness. And I'd love to talk about the ways that, um, the London abuse women's shelter is bringing awareness and how they are bringing it to light so that women, that 77% can hopefully decrease and they find that safety in order to speak up.

Jen Dunn (08:51.947)
So I want to kind of start with what you started with around the 77% and why women might be afraid to speak up. And oftentimes people might say, well, why does she stay? And put that blame on the woman. And so I can list very easily many reasons why a woman would stay.

katie mares (09:01.72)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (09:11.322)
Oh, yeah.

Jen Dunn (09:21.731)
She fears for her life. She fears for her children. She's maybe ashamed. There's lack of support. Immigration status. Disability. Financial means. She might blame herself. And one of the most important ones that people forget is that, you know, oftentimes in an intimate, well, almost all of the time in an intimate relationship.

katie mares (09:22.99)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (09:26.315)
Yep.

katie mares (09:29.952)
Yeah.

katie mares (09:37.268)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (09:50.483)
at one point you really cared about each other. And so, you know, sometimes there's, you know, the thought, well, he'll change. It'll be okay. You know, we're in a relationship, we're a family, we have the kids, everything will be fine. Yeah. And so that narrative is so terrible. It's so terrible. And it's so harmful for women.

katie mares (09:53.525)
Yeah.

katie mares (10:05.366)
Yeah. Or if I could just be better, or if I could do things better, it'll change. It'll become better.

Jen Dunn (10:21.792)
And so I think it's really important. I kind of wanted to separate what you were talking about when we talk about, you know, what we're doing and how we're advocating for some of these things. I think it's important to bring it back to that part. There are so many different pieces of why women might not want to leave, why that's not that easy. It's easier said than done, I guess.

katie mares (10:26.016)
Yeah.

Jen Dunn (10:46.655)
and what some of those other pieces look like. And when women walk through our doors to access service here at our center, it could be one of the most difficult times of their entire lives. And the bravery and courage that they need to just walk into the door is absolutely huge. And people don't understand that. Like, for a woman to decide to get to the point that they're like, okay,

katie mares (11:04.51)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (11:18.54)
I'm going to leave, I'm going to take the kids, I'm going to leave. And obviously I'm speaking, obviously, you know, not everybody has kids. There's so many different pieces to all of this. I'm just kind of generalizing things. That can be one of the scariest moments. There's so many unanswered questions with all the things that I mentioned before. What if you don't work? What if you don't have a job? What if he was the person who brought the money in? Where are you going to go?

katie mares (11:26.163)
Yeah.

katie mares (11:40.619)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (11:45.507)
Housing is a huge, huge issue right now. How are you gonna afford to live? Can your kids go to the same school? What if you are not a Canadian citizen? What if your immigration status relies on the fact that you were married or you were sponsored to be here? Or if you have a disability, you need medication, you don't have benefits. Like, I know I'm just randomly throwing things out there, but those are all of the thoughts that a woman would have. It's not as easy as packing a bag and leaving.

katie mares (11:48.875)
Yep.

katie mares (12:13.426)
Oh, you know, and it's just not it's and I know, again, I can only speak from personal experience, because I got that question all the time. You know, when I finally started to open up to people about what was happening and questioning whether or not it was me. Why didn't Why didn't you just leave? How could you know, you're you're, you're successful, you're this, you're that I'm like, but really, if you break it down, I gave up my career.

I was financially strong held. I was isolated. I didn't have, I cut out my friends and family. And then there was love. Like not a healthy love, but there was love. And so there are so many more factors and shame is a big one. Shame is huge. And...

A lot of humans out there that, you know, onlookers, well, it should just be easy. You should just be able to have, you know, know your self-worth and, and take yourself out of that situation. What they don't realize is when you're in, in that situation, your self-worth is so diminished and depleted to practically nothing that you do get to that point where you question whether or not you actually deserve what you're getting.

Jen Dunn (13:32.755)
And sometimes not because of you. Sometimes that's, you know, I say it that way because, you know, sometimes you could have anxiety or thoughts or ideas about what is going on, but sometimes that was all controlled around you. And that's what the abuser wanted you to think. And so that's kind of what plays a role when you talk about coercive control. It's like that the intentional,

behavior to make you think that what he's doing is the best it's ever going to be, you know, maybe causing you to be isolated, which then in turn might you think, okay, well I kind of, again, I'm making this up, Katie, I'm not suggesting that this is what happened to you or what happens in general. I'm just, you know...

katie mares (14:12.238)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (14:29.451)
going off of what I know with the work that we do, just to be clear and also to be clear to anybody that's listening to this as well. But isolating a person from their family or friends is a tactic, it's a tactic of abuse, it's a tactic of course of control to make you really rely heavily upon that individual and make you think that that's all you got.

katie mares (14:30.611)
Yeah, no, for sure. Yes.

Jen Dunn (14:56.703)
And then you start to second guess yourself and, well, I pushed my friends away and that sort of thing. And so it's not always you. And I didn't mean to interrupt you when you were talking, but I think it's really important that people know that these types of things all fit into this power and control dynamic.

katie mares (15:03.993)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (15:22.699)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (15:26.015)
I know something you had said to me in email when you were talking about relationships are not abusive, abusers are abusive, that, you know, the power and control piece is huge. When somebody is physically abusive, it's all about having control. It's not about losing control. Oftentimes when you see things go through the court system or people are questioned, well, he lost, he's a good guy, but he just lost control. But that's actually not true.

katie mares (15:35.35)
Yep.

katie mares (15:41.25)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (15:53.163)
Because if he was losing control, he would also lose control at the cashier at the grocery store. Or he would also lose control with his coworkers. And I think it's really important to remember those types of things too, right?

katie mares (16:02.335)
Yep.

katie mares (16:11.77)
Yeah, I mean, just in this, you know, two minutes of having just this specific conversation, there's so much to unpack. That is what's going through these women's heads. Like, it's just, it's so much. It all just swims in your head and you're like on an island of your own and you have no idea what step to take. You think it's not right. You think you should leave.

You think you should make that attempt, but you're scared out of your mind and then you're gaslighting yourself and you're questioning everything. And so for a woman to take that first step and to seek help, it is unbelievably courageous.

Jen Dunn (16:58.715)
It is. And it's, you know, something you just said kind of kind of triggered another thought of mine is, yes, it's very courageous. It's a huge deal when somebody gets to that point of wanting to access service or talk about what's happened to them. But it's, you know, really important to know too, that I think, you know, society just expects women to be like,

Well, you're good. Just figure it out. Just do it. And while all of these thoughts and everything are kind of rolling around in your head and, you know, think about those who are most vulnerable, right? So maybe minority groups. The way that I'm thinking about it right now would be an example that we notice here is kind of on an increase with the work that we're doing is really around immigration status and what that must look like for those

katie mares (17:31.48)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (17:57.043)
for those women is absolutely horrifying to think of all of the things, all of the things we've talked about around, you know, why she isn't living, why, you know, she, maybe she doesn't work, maybe she has kids, she's thinking of all of these things, she's going to make this really difficult decision to go and access support to talk about what's happening to her. All while thinking, what if she can't live here anymore? And what if she is, you know,

katie mares (18:02.359)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (18:19.872)
Ugh.

Jen Dunn (18:24.427)
deported or whatever that looks like. And society or the systems that are at place, and this will kind of maybe get me into talking more about some of the systemic issues, the systems in place like housing, for example. So you're going to leave, you're going to leave the home that you share with your partner and you have your kids. Housing is a concern across the country. But the system is like, well, here, fill out this paperwork.

katie mares (18:33.578)
Yes.

katie mares (18:38.355)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (18:53.326)
Yeah.

Jen Dunn (18:53.655)
Get all your ducks in a row. Tell us all of these things about yourself while you're going through all of this. Just do all of that and check all these boxes and then go on this wait list for however long and we'll see what we can do. Well, do you know how difficult it is? Sorry, I don't mean this as like a question to you. I'm just, it's kind of like a, just more of a statement, but do you know how difficult it is to navigate everyday life when you are going through such a traumatic time?

katie mares (19:08.513)
Yeah.

katie mares (19:13.975)
Yeah.

Jen Dunn (19:22.819)
to fill out a piece of paper, to, you know, you're, it's unbelievable, the, yeah. Yeah.

katie mares (19:24.894)
Oh yeah. Oh yes.

katie mares (19:29.294)
To share your story five, 10, 20 times over because the system doesn't talk, our system doesn't talk to each other. Like you have to repeat yourself over and over and over again. And yeah, while navigating regular life, it is.

Jen Dunn (19:42.312)
Yes.

Jen Dunn (19:46.627)
Yeah, and how re-traumatizing that is. And there are so many systems that are not trauma-informed. So nobody is looking at how, you know, you go to... I'm using housing as an example, just because it's an easy one right now. But, you know, you're needing to fill out this housing application. And, you know, the person who's maybe helping you from, you know, the housing access center has maybe no idea of what could possibly be going on with you.

katie mares (19:49.695)
Oh my gosh. Oh yes.

Jen Dunn (20:16.483)
might subconsciously label you in a certain way, not thinking about all of these different nuances to violence and abuse or so many different things, disability, immigration, just so many different things. And I think it's important to remember that. It's very easy for the everyday average person to do these types of things, maybe, but it's...

katie mares (20:44.178)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (20:45.607)
million times more difficult for somebody who is struggling and in every sense of the word, maybe silently, but still expected to continue on and you know, I'm kind of going off here but continue on and be a good mom and you know, do your job and work and bring in money and yeah.

katie mares (20:59.58)
No, I think it's important.

katie mares (21:04.47)
Show up, if you have kids, be a mom, show up, be that person, you know, and I think it's important conversation to have or at least bring shed light on, bring light to because it's a lot. I keep going back to that statement, it's a lot. And the women that fight vocally or silently, yeah, they've got to show up and be a human in society. And

Jen Dunn (21:16.621)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (21:34.214)
and function just like everyone else while they are.

Jen Dunn (21:36.195)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (21:41.342)
you know, planning their escape and getting help. And so they can be safe. They've got to fight while they're not safe. They don't have that safety net. And it is, that in itself is traumatizing. So not only are they living in the trauma and in traumatic experiences, they are like you mentioned, reliving it and creating more trauma because you, at least in my experience, I've come up against so many

Jen Dunn (21:43.927)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (22:10.454)
walls, so many doors shut in my face from the people that are supposed to help and protect us. 

Jen Dunn (22:18.369)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (22:27.386)
with no help. And we don't often talk about, at least I don't see a lot of it out there, and maybe you can shed some light on this. Once you speak up, once you decide to leave, it doesn't end there. The abuse after the fact, the harassment after the fact, the, I mean,

Jen Dunn (22:28.847)
Yep. I can, yeah.

katie mares (22:52.882)
I'm getting harassment and extortion and the assaults after the fact is it's real. So it's not only did she finally find the courage to go and do all that paperwork and get all your ducks in a row, now she's got to deal with the aftermath.

Jen Dunn (23:10.835)
Yeah. And the most difficult time for a woman throughout, you know, we talk about being in a relationship with an abusive person, you know, and all of that and parenting and doing all of those things, you know, we've talked about that, but the most difficult and the most lethal time for a woman.

is when she does leave. And so the risk of lethality for a woman increases significantly because you know sometimes those abusers think well they don't have anything else to lose. And so it's very difficult and I want to talk about the criminal justice system a little bit and what that looks like. So I, it's really difficult because

katie mares (24:00.781)
Yeah.

Jen Dunn (24:08.075)
women are, when we think about women who have been subjected to sexual assault, and oftentimes with intimate partner violence as well, women are often left to testify about what has happened to them and prove that this has happened to them, which then speaks to what you've said you had to share your story over and over and over and over again and try to like prove to these people that...

katie mares (24:25.677)
Yes.

Jen Dunn (24:35.819)
what has happened to you is significant. One of the biggest issues that we run into is actually, what is in the criminal code and what is not in the criminal code. And so there are pieces of the criminal code where emotional abuse doesn't even, it's not a crime, right? It was, I pulled the state when I was kind of preparing for talking to you because I thought this was so interesting. Charging a spouse with sexual assault.

katie mares (24:45.963)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (25:04.603)
only was only added to the criminal code in 1983. So before that, a man could sexually assault his wife and it wasn't a problem because they were married. Isn't that wild? So I don't know how old you are, but that is doubt that's in my time. Okay. So I 82. So we're about the same age. So that so that was in my lifetime. But you know, that means that, you know,

katie mares (25:14.726)
Oh my goodness. That is wild. I was born in 84, so I'm 40. Yeah. So 40, same age. Yeah.

katie mares (25:29.766)
Oh my gosh.

Jen Dunn (25:33.351)
I don't know, you know, like I was just like 1983, what are you talking about? Yeah, could have been sexually assaulted. Yeah, exactly. And that's horrifying, but it speaks to how far we still have to go. And so there are certain pieces of emotional abuse that are recognized in the criminal code, like criminal harassment.

katie mares (25:35.958)
The women that raised us.

sexually assaulted and couldn't do anything about it.

Jen Dunn (26:02.691)
There's a financial abuse piece that's recognized in the criminal code as well. But all of those things have to meet a certain threshold for them to be, you know, for an arrest to be made or for it to move along into something bigger than just reporting it, which is exhausting. It's exhausting for the women who are looking for protection.

katie mares (26:11.563)
Yeah.

katie mares (26:19.134)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jen Dunn (26:30.183)
And I say it like that because sometimes protection doesn't come in the form of the criminal justice system. It just simply does not. And it's exhausting is what it is. So I wanna give you an example of kind of what is happening here in, oh, actually, I wanna go back. I just had looked at my, when I glanced down at my nose, criminal harassment, something that's kind of included in that just for people listening that might not know would be stalking.

that sort of thing. People can be charged with criminal harassment these days, like on your cell phone. So if you're harassing someone with text messages or phone calls and you have, yeah. So that's all involved in that just in case somebody didn't know. But then it also still needs to meet a certain threshold for it to even be considered and a charge to be laid and all of that. So I'm going to talk a little bit.

katie mares (26:59.582)
Yep.

katie mares (27:07.979)
Yep.

katie mares (27:11.194)
or emails. Yep.

katie mares (27:18.849)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (27:26.243)
just very quickly about London specific and I'm not sure about other geographical areas, but in London, we have an intimate partner violence unit in our police department, which is wonderful, but they're not an investigative unit. They're an audit unit. So, you know, one of the big things that we're working toward or advocating for is the creation of an investigative unit with intimate partner violence.

katie mares (27:41.428)
Okay.

Jen Dunn (27:51.871)
We have that for sexual assault, we have that for human trafficking, and of course, all other different types of major crimes and that sort of thing. But Intimate Partner Violence is one of the only ones that does not have an investigative unit and there are so many different pieces. It's so nuanced that an officer who's working on the street, let's say that officer gets a call for a...

I'm making this up, completely making it up. A break and enter. And you know, they do the work that they have to do with that. And their next call is an intimate partner violence call. So they go, they do that. Training for police officers is not adequate. It's not where it needs to be. You know, they might learn about intimate partner violence on a course if they're interested in it. They might, you know, learn a little bit in police college.

katie mares (28:20.609)
Yep.

katie mares (28:37.805)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (28:49.727)
or at the police college, but not nearly enough, not nearly enough at all. I've come into contact with uniformed officers who didn't even know we existed before and we've been around for 40 years. And so that speaks to, you know, the severity of this. You have a uniformed officer attending a domestic violence call. Usually there's supposed to be two officers. One would talk to one person, the other one would talk to the other person.

katie mares (29:01.294)
Oh my goodness.

katie mares (29:14.9)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (29:17.939)
and kind of figure out what's going on, but they have to do all the investigating as well. So they have to figure out, you know, what has happened, who is the primary aggressor in the situation. That is up to the officer that attends the house. It doesn't go to somebody who is well versed in the, or well educated, I guess, in...

intimate partner violence and what could be involved with that. It'll be audited later on, so it'll be looked at later on, but that'll be after charges have been laid. It's already, you know, there's already a court date scheduled. Once it's in the Crown's hands, it's very difficult. So it's like, well, that'll be determined in the court. That'll be determined in court. And that's so difficult. It's so difficult. There needs to be an investigative process with intimate partner violence.

katie mares (29:48.012)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (30:09.123)
not, I mean, there is by way of policing, but not at all where it needs to be at all. And it's also tricky because we in Canada, we have a mandatory charge policy. So what this means is if a police officer was called to an intimate partner violence call, if they determine a primary aggressor, an arrest has to be a charge, sorry, a charge has to be laid. Right.

katie mares (30:13.595)
Yep.

katie mares (30:34.866)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (30:36.083)
So if they, and we often, this came to be in the 80s as well, maybe 1989, maybe something, it was in the 80s or early 90s, I can't remember the exact date. And it was really meant to protect women, right? But oftentimes now we find it's actually working in the opposite way. So what we see is men using the system to abuse further and...

katie mares (31:00.275)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Jen Dunn (31:05.187)
taking pictures or taking videos of what is going on. And so he may have, and this is, maybe this is a good point for trigger warning anybody who's listening with what I'm about to say. Maybe he's choked her to the point of almost unconsciousness and she uses her fingernails to scratch his face. The police show up. While bruises on your neck don't show up for a couple of days. And as a matter of fact,

They can be lethal. You can die from internal swelling. But you wouldn't know for a couple of days. The woman though is charged because there are physical marks on the man's face.

katie mares (31:46.198)
Yeah, it's, well, the reactionary abuse, right? That's what it's, and I've been in that situation. I've had the police called on me because I was rocking on the floor saying, I can't do this anymore. Like I can't, I was crying, like in a fetal position just on the bathroom floor. I'm like, I can't do this, I can't do this. Well, he decided to call the police and tell them that I was gonna take my life.

Jen Dunn (31:49.601)
Yeah.

katie mares (32:16.318)
And so the police show up and now I'm the one that looks like the, and I, not, and not that any, any woman that's listening to this is crazy, but I look like the crazy one, like that's how the picture that's painted. Right. And, um, and then I had, I, I've been through that whole, the, you know, they, we talks to him, talks to you, pulls you aside, does all the things.

Jen Dunn (32:28.387)
Mm-hmm. That's well how he wanted it to be portrayed. Yeah.

katie mares (32:43.73)
If you have a good somebody that is trained, and I think this is really important because anybody would clearly see where, why it got to that point or why it was called and they'd be able to see the, uh, I can't even find my words. They'd be able to see who was the cause. If they were properly trained, they'd know who the victim was versus the abuser. Exactly. Thank you for the words. Yes, I couldn't find the words.

Jen Dunn (32:47.979)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (33:04.428)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, like determining the primary aggressor kind of thing, right? Like in figuring out who, yeah, being able to like analyze the situation. Yeah.

katie mares (33:13.27)
Because, well exactly, and then you talk about that scenario that you were just speaking of, she looks like the one that.

did something to him and the reality is you're right, bruises don't show up for a few days. They don't and a lot of times if they're really good, there's never any bruises left on you for proof.

Jen Dunn (33:32.407)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (33:37.699)
Mm-hmm. You're absolutely right. I just want to pause and say that I'm, like, pause with moving forward with new topics and just hold the space right now for what you just shared. And I think I'm sorry that that's happened to you. And I'm sorry, because I think it's so easy to kind of put women into this box of being over emotional or...

emotional in general. And, you know, not like that's so harmful, not just to you, but to your kids and for every piece of probably who you are to be told that you're not you're not good enough, something is wrong with you. You're not able and not that I'm suggesting I'm just, you know, assuming and taking a guess based off of what you've said. But it will, you know.

katie mares (34:07.969)
Yeah.

katie mares (34:31.254)
Yep. You're right. Yeah.

Jen Dunn (34:36.435)
I just, it breaks my heart that this is still happening. And it's one of the reasons why we, you know, here at our center anyways, continue to do what we do because it's not like enough is enough. It's not okay. You know, and for men, and this is, you know, one of the big reasons why we say, we really say men and women and you know, the man did this, the man...

katie mares (34:51.562)
Right? Yep.

Jen Dunn (35:04.215)
the woman is the victim or the survivor, is because of that stat I kind of started off with, you know, 78% are women, just to be clear, again, noting that we know this happens the other way around as well. But, you know, it's 2024, and men still think that it's okay to treat women like they are less than.

katie mares (35:09.069)
Yeah.

katie mares (35:23.047)
Yep.

katie mares (35:31.692)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (35:34.303)
and they can do whatever they want whenever they want, take whatever they want whenever they want, and continue to just live their life and do what they want to do with no, you know, nothing will harm them. You know, it's horrible. And we see that in literally all of the work that we do.

katie mares (35:45.83)
Excuse it away.

katie mares (35:53.474)
Yep. Oh, it's uh, it's horrible.

Jen Dunn (36:03.519)
We see that with some of the stuff that's coming out of London, Ontario right now around hockey Canada. And there's a big story a couple years ago from Western University around sexual assault. And it's, you know, I think about, and this is maybe a bigger conversation, but just like as an aside, and something that I think about quite often when we're thinking about, well, what the hell are we going to do to change this? Where are we going to go with this?

katie mares (36:08.526)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

katie mares (36:31.885)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (36:32.779)
You think about society in general and how all of these systems and structures and everything that is down to like sports, government, everything, everything is controlled by men. Literally everything. And where, what are we going to do about that? How can we, how can we come out of that? And it's, I feel like organizations like ours and people like you who are speaking up.

katie mares (36:38.221)
Yeah.

katie mares (36:45.934)
Yeah. Everything.

Jen Dunn (37:01.503)
about these types of things to show other women and not just other women, but younger people, men or girls or boys, that this type of behaviour is not okay. It's just not. And going back to sports and government and all of that kind of stuff, please tell me, when has there been a female president or prime minister? Never. Where are the...

katie mares (37:11.477)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (37:25.686)
Nope.

Jen Dunn (37:30.291)
you know, mainstream women's basketball, baseball, hockey, football teams? Where are like, you know, you have in the States, you hear all these stories about, not stories, they're real life facts about men controlling the decisions that are happening with legislation around abortion and, you know, women's bodies. And I saw this really interesting and sorry, this is going maybe a little bit way off, but I think it's like...

identifying the root cause of some of all of this. I saw this picture of, it was like a black and white picture online, it was like a drawing maybe even. It looked kind of older and it was a picture of a man holding an umbrella over a pregnant woman's belly only. Do you know what I mean? So the woman and the children were drenched, soaking wet in the rain and the man is protecting the unborn baby.

katie mares (38:00.974)
I think it speaks exactly. I agree with you.

katie mares (38:20.183)
Yeah.

katie mares (38:25.409)
Yeah.

katie mares (38:28.846)
But we're gonna, yeah. Yes.

Jen Dunn (38:30.147)
Do you know what I mean? So, okay, so that's like a whole other topic, but I think it speaks to the root of literally all of this because all of these systems were designed in a way women weren't even allowed to vote until a certain period of time. Women were not allowed to have bank accounts, drive cars, all of that. So we're still living in it. We just are.

katie mares (38:43.255)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (38:46.527)
Yeah, yeah.

katie mares (38:51.326)
You know, and it's, we weren't allowed to do all those things publicly. However, in the household, we did it all. We ran, so I don't know if you know this about me, but I'm an author of a book called Custom Her Experience, and I studied the physiological differences between men and women and why women buy versus why men buy because everything, the,

Jen Dunn (39:00.152)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (39:17.91)
the customer experiences designed by men for men, delivered by men most of the time. But with that, it took me, I researched a ton into, you know, just the impact women had and have in the household, but for the longest time didn't have a voice outside of the household. Yet she was the one that endured, I mean, it's one in three women are in domestically.

abusive relationships. So she endures that. She is expected to upkeep the home, take care of the children, take care of the partner, take care of herself, run that household. But the moment she steps outside the door, the world isn't there to give her the opportunity to have that voice to speak up. So I mean, that goes back to the, you know, the stat of 77% of women stay silent.

Jen Dunn (40:08.599)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (40:13.778)
and your point of the root cause. We've been taught to stay silent and we don't have the system in place to give us a voice. And that needs to change. And I, you know, out of everything that I've been going through and that I've experienced, it's the one thing that.

Jen Dunn (40:14.051)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (40:25.739)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (40:30.441)
You're absolutely right.

katie mares (40:40.098)
has fueled me is that something has to change. And it shouldn't be this hard to get help and it shouldn't take this long. And it shouldn't, there should be an easy and obvious outlet and there's not.

Jen Dunn (40:57.027)
Mm-hmm. You're absolutely right. And then it's often left to community organizations like ours and others to be there, which we need to be and we love to be and we're all in this work because that's what we want to do. But community organizations like ours are relied upon to provide that support, but we're not properly funded. And, you know, legislation is so hard to work.

katie mares (41:02.67)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

katie mares (41:21.505)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (41:26.719)
work toward changing anything with that. And, you know, we're not properly funded, but we're made to run the way any other organization, public or private or public or, you know, nonprofit or for-profit runs, you know, and make sure that things are sustainable with our funding and just like...

all of this kind of stuff and you know sometimes that is exhausting and what keeps us going though is are, not is, are the women that we're providing service to and being able to you know hear these stories of women doing what they choose to do and what their journey to justice might look like and that's what we had called one of our programs Journey to Justice not too long ago because

katie mares (42:22.83)
I love it. Yeah.

Jen Dunn (42:24.795)
for that exact fact where women's journey to justice doesn't always mean, okay, I'm reporting this, it's going to the police, we're going through the court system, all of that. Sometimes a woman's journey to justice is like what you're doing. You're talking about what's happened to you. Making change, that's a journey to justice too. And I think, you know, without community organizations like ours and others across the country,

katie mares (42:36.663)
Yeah.

katie mares (42:43.287)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (42:50.275)
there's a lot of stuff that just wouldn't get done. We wouldn't hear the opinions of experts in the House of Commons or at the Senate, or talking in front of city councilors in your municipality. And things wouldn't be thought of in a way other than what that middle-aged white man thinks. No offense to middle-aged white men, but the majority of those people are middle-aged white men.

katie mares (43:12.458)
Yeah, but it's, yeah.

katie mares (43:16.87)
It's, uh, you know, and I want to, and I'm sort of circling back, but because I think that there are future generations, um, if we're going to see a change in anything, we have to look at our children and look at the children that are exposed to domestic abuse and what happens to them. And that's part of, I think the root.

the root problem, the root cause, we're not breaking a cycle. You know, as I was looking up, there was this article written, and one in 15 children are exposed to domestic abuse and over 90% witness it firsthand. And it creates a lifetime of, you know, emotional scars. And if, I mean, I think we just need to look so much deeper and go so much further back if we really wanna make a change, you know.

Jen Dunn (43:42.477)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (43:54.947)
Mm-hmm, yep.

Jen Dunn (44:01.047)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (44:09.987)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (44:10.338)
What are we doing for, you know, the women finally speak up and if you have children, you know, what are we doing for them? How are we creating healing for those children? Because they often, you know, get, get neglected. And my daughter, my daughter is one of those 90%. She, she witnessed, um, you know, me being, my face being put into the bed multiple times, um, being mocked, is this abuse, is this abuse?

Jen Dunn (44:24.321)
Yeah.

Jen Dunn (44:28.798)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (44:40.086)
And I think about that and I think, you know, and you talk about women, the shame that we feel as mothers, the fact that you let your child be exposed to that is overwhelming. But at the same time, those children need that part of that route, I think solving it, and I might be wrong, but it's so much more than just the woman that's experiencing it right now.

it's, you know, the younger generation growing up. And how do we stop that where they say it's not okay. And just because, you know, this happened to my mom, how do I break that pattern because I won't let it happen to me. And I think that part of that change needs to come from the programs we provide these youth.

Jen Dunn (45:25.483)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (45:31.511)
Mm-hmm. I agree. And I think, you know, one thing I want to say about, you know, young women saying, I won't let this happen to me, we need to also shift that and teach young boys and men that they should not be doing that. Right. And I think all of this needs to, we need to be talking about how can we support young boys who have also seen this, who think that that's appropriate behavior.

katie mares (45:47.303)
Amen. Yep, amen.

katie mares (46:00.722)
Yeah, I love I thank you for bringing that up because I think that's extremely important.

Jen Dunn (46:01.171)
And I'm talking like, so yeah. And so, you know, so we both have kids. And so I don't know how you feel about what I'm about to say now, but you know, for me, my kids definitely could have been learning about health. Well, they did based on, you know, the way that I chose to speak with them and teach them. But kids can learn about healthy relationships in a very age appropriate way, starting in kindergarten and earlier.

katie mares (46:27.702)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (46:32.511)
healthy relationship conversations in the real healthy relationship form. We start talking about intimate partners and things like that. Typically here in London anyway, and I'm assuming based on, you know, the Ministry of Education and all of that, there are going to be certain standards across the province and the country. But grades seven and eight, there's a lot of talk around healthy relationships. Well, that's too late. It's absolutely too late. And so...

katie mares (46:56.317)
Yeah.

Jen Dunn (46:59.339)
Not only that, but then you have schools and decision makers from school boards and administration who are kind of in the same position that we're in, where you have people who are not talking about this, have no idea what they're talking about in regards to these very specific and nuanced topics. And more needs to be done in that setting to be able to get to where we need to go. So we need to be talking about

healthy relationships significantly earlier. We need to be, you know, and some of this stuff is already being done. I'm definitely recognizing it. I don't know about you or how old your kids are, but some of the things that I see kind of coming out, coming, my boys coming home from school with, I'm like, wow, I wish I had an opportunity to learn like that when I was your age, or I wish we would have talked about how that makes me feel.

katie mares (47:51.95)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jen Dunn (47:52.279)
talked about feelings in school and that sort of thing and how to not be a bully and how to be, you know, there's always room for improvement and there's always room for repeating myself now, but for all of this to happen earlier, but it's a huge piece, a huge piece of what we need to do. And some of the really big pieces of advocacy and education that we're doing right now are all around prevention, because our system is set up to react.

it's not set up to provide prevention. Police don't respond to you until you're, and I don't mean to come down on police. Yeah, I don't mean to do that, but really the law in itself is set up to react to you when it's already too far gone. And we're talking about femicides and how many women have been murdered already in...

katie mares (48:20.556)
Yep.

katie mares (48:27.826)
in a situation. No, yeah. No, I hear you.

katie mares (48:37.259)
Yep.

katie mares (48:42.957)
I read that stat and I was like, are you are you kidding me?

Jen Dunn (48:45.907)
It's horrifying. It's horrifying since, um, like the, the number of parents that have reached out to me over the past, less than six months, I have three parents that have reached out to me, me personally. And I'm like, I'm like, me, what are you asking me? You know, like, I'm like, then I'm like, there's all the like, this is imposter syndrome coming up for, for me, like, how am I going to help these people who just lost their kids? Like, I can't imagine what that's like.

katie mares (49:05.266)
Yeah.

katie mares (49:13.035)
Yeah.

Jen Dunn (49:15.275)
But then I'm like, no, this is a bigger systemic issue around why the hell are parents losing their daughters because of their abusive partners. And it's, you know, it's horrifying. And I just think of all of these things we could do to talk about, you know, what's going on in our country and how we can do better. And that that's going to be huge for future generations like.

katie mares (49:24.002)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (49:43.155)
I don't know about you, Katie, but even just the way I talk to my kids about how we treat people and just being really real about what has happened or what they see on the news or what I do for a living, for example, right? You know, being able to do that, I think, gives me hope with how the next generation is going to be.

katie mares (49:58.047)
Yep, yep.

Jen Dunn (50:08.383)
And sometimes I get glimpses of how children are already treating each other. You know, my kids are in grade four and I'm like, wow, really? Like, you know, you haven't been bullied for what you were wearing. You're friends with everybody. You know what? There's all these little tiny little pieces that I'm like, that is so different. So things are changing, you know, but they need to continue. And then we also need to remember that there are people that are not in. I'm talking from I'm well aware of this privileged position where I have the ability.

katie mares (50:21.962)
Yeah. Yes.

Jen Dunn (50:38.103)
to talk to my kids about what has happened and what continues to happen. And that is not a position that a lot of people are in. And until we get to the point where these types of things are being taught in schools, or everybody is listening to your podcast, or we're not gonna be there. And so we just need to keep talking about it.

katie mares (50:44.619)
No.

katie mares (50:54.442)
Yeah.

katie mares (50:58.866)
I think it's so important to, so I talk to my kids about everything. I hold no secrets. We have, that's actually a rule in our home. We talk about every feeling, every aspect of what's happening and we work through it because we can't control what other people do to us. We can't control the hand of cards were dealt, but we can control what we do with that hand of cards were dealt, how we play it. And that's where...

Jen Dunn (51:23.177)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (51:27.454)
I think it's important to unpack, okay, well, you're feeling this, but that doesn't mean you have to react this way. This is happening. How do we break it down and work through it? So I am 100% in a agreeance with you and how I parent anyways, is I talk about it all. And so my kids are very, very open individuals for sure.

Jen Dunn (51:32.332)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (51:37.964)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (51:52.083)
Yeah, and I think that's great. And I think it's so important, it's so important because they don't, that's what kids need, you know? They need to, yeah, yeah.

katie mares (52:01.994)
Well, they think it. Here's the thing. They're thinking it. They're experiencing it. It's on steroids because of social media and TikTok and all the things. They have access to everything. No matter, you know, if you as a parent think you've got it under control, you don't. It's just the way of the world. And so if you don't have that safe space to be able to talk about it, then they're going to keep it from you. And then that's when things really go south, especially for young women.

Jen Dunn (52:07.647)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (52:15.17)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (52:30.007)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (52:32.038)
is the shame sets in, oh, I shouldn't have sent that picture, or oh, now I'm in trouble, or oh, he's only asking for this. It's okay. And they start to, because shame sets in, and if you don't have a safe environment to speak about it, they put themselves into hot water, and then they don't know how to get out. They don't know how to ask for help. And that's where I go back to the root causes. If we go right back to childhood is how do we get our...

Jen Dunn (52:47.064)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (52:51.453)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

katie mares (53:01.146)
young adults or young girls to not be afraid to speak up.

Jen Dunn (53:05.9)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I think, you know, it also speaks to, that also speaks to safety and where those young women might be at in their lives and what kind of support system they have. And, you know, there's all sorts of things you could bring up in this moment, like self-esteem and just all of these pieces. And I think women need to know the bottom line is whether you're 16 or you're 61, you need to know that you're not alone.

katie mares (53:16.59)
100%. Yep.

Jen Dunn (53:38.751)
Bottom line, if you don't have a family that is supportive, if you don't have friends that are supportive, there are, no matter where you are in this country, there are community organizations like ours that will support you and believe your story when maybe others have not. And that is the bottom line.

katie mares (53:39.516)
Thank you.

katie mares (53:55.228)
Ro.

katie mares (53:58.858)
It's so lonely. It's so lonely. And when I realized I had an outlet in, I had a friend, like literally sit me down and said, Okay, Katie, you're abused. And you need to go to a shelter or a women's group, amongst other women that have been abused, so you don't feel alone. So you don't feel nuts and crazy, or you need to call this hotline.

And when I started to do that, I felt less alone. And I didn't realize that was out there. And so thank you for pointing that out because.

Jen Dunn (54:31.171)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (54:37.154)
For you that are listening, if you're in a situation right now where...

I mean, you feel like you're in a dark hole looking up and you just can't see the light. You've got to reach your hand out. You have to know you're not alone. And there's resources, and I know we'll put some resources in the show notes here. And it doesn't matter where you are in the world, there are people out there that will believe you and will listen to you. And even if you just call, just to share your story so somebody can say and reassure you that you're not.

Jen Dunn (54:52.683)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Dunn (55:07.159)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (55:13.802)
making it up and it's not okay.

Jen Dunn (55:16.596)
Mm-hmm. And just to be clear too, so being in London, Ontario, if someone is in a completely different part of the country or the world, if somebody was to call us and say, this is where I am, I heard this on this podcast, I need help, then just call. Don't think that because you're not from London, Ontario or not from, yeah, like we can help you.

katie mares (55:40.651)
Yes.

Jen Dunn (55:41.331)
and navigate that with you and figure out what works best for you. Right. And I think that's a big piece of a lot of people and that's maybe, maybe a bit where the, you know, the shame might come into a little bit. Well, I don't know if it's a fit for me and I'm not from there, so I don't want to, I don't want to call them. And, but guess what? When you're in, when you're in this kind of work, you know, we have resources across the world. So one person right now is listening to this and they need support and they

katie mares (55:58.606)
Hmm.

katie mares (56:03.302)
Yep. And when you're...

Jen Dunn (56:09.887)
see London Abused Women's Center, they Google us, call us, and we'll get you where you need to go. And sorry, sorry for interrupting that part too. I just wanted to be clear.

katie mares (56:15.246)
Thank you. Don't even apologize. It's perfect. It's perfect because that's what women need. And even if it's just calling once, twice, three times before you decide to make the move to become free of your situation, just call. Just make that first step. And

Jen Dunn (56:39.491)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (56:41.554)
That's, you know, the ladies take control community and what I'm building right now is just that it's a community, a safe space. So women realize they're not alone. And so thank you for everything that you do, Jen and the London Women Abused Women's Center, London Abused Women's Center, because it's lonely. And so if we can just help one person today listening to this.

Jen Dunn (57:08.055)
Mm-hmm.

katie mares (57:09.974)
and they make a call, then we've done a good thing. So thank you so much for being on here. And I could talk to you for hours. Ha ha ha.

Jen Dunn (57:17.535)
I feel like some of these, yeah, some of the things we talked about, I was like, oh, I could go this way with it. But then it would, you know, I agree, we could talk about this for such a long time. There's so many different pieces that we could talk about. But I think, you know, what's really important is that you are talking about it. And so you're saying thank you to me, which I really appreciate. And you're welcome. But really, the thanks is to you. And thank you for talking about it. And thank you for sharing your story. That's so courageous of you to do that.

and you will help somebody else. You just will. And I think that's really important. You know, and thank you so much to the Women in Media Network for even being willing to talk about this too, because this can go places that, you know, maybe my voice sitting here in London might not go. And I think it's so important for the conversation to continue. We owe it to, you know, our children. We owe it to the younger.

katie mares (57:56.856)
Yes.

katie mares (58:08.076)
Yep.

Jen Dunn (58:13.095)
you know, younger generations to continue doing this work. So thank you for talking about it.

katie mares (58:17.23)
Oh, thank you so much.

Jen Dunn (58:23.391)
Yep. Yep, yep, not until noon, it's fine, yep.

katie mares (58:29.781)
Yes.

katie mares (58:33.554)
Uh huh. Yup.

katie mares (58:43.554)
Okay, cool.

katie mares (58:47.018)
In partnership with Women in Media Network, we are proud to amplify charitable initiatives to, I'm gonna try that again. In partnership with Women in Media Network, we are proud to amplify charitable initiatives in support of organizations that provide support to women and girls who have been subjected to violence, trafficking, and or homelessness.

In honor of Women's History Month, the network will be donating proceeds from merchandise to the London Abused Women's Centre. You can find out more at wome or donate at the link in the show notes. I've also got some resources in the notes for you that includes information about the London Abused Women's Centre and the Assaulted Women's Heilplein, a free anonymous telephone line for women in Ontario experiencing any form of abuse.

Thank you again, Jen, so much for being here with us today. I am ridiculously grateful.

Jen Dunn (59:47.255)
Thank you.