We take 25,000 breaths a day without a second thought. And yet our breath is the key to regulating our nervous system, resulting in better decision-making, effective discernment, and improved communication.
Your breath is the greatest leadership hack you probably didn’t know about.
And that’s what my guest, Jamie Clements discussed with me on this week’s episode.
Jamie Clements is a breathwork coach and facilitator based in London, and the founder of The Breath Space. After discovering breathwork four years ago, Jamie experienced a profound transformation in his physical and mental wellbeing, even overcoming severe anxiety and panic attacks.
🌬️ Explore the profound impact of breath on well-being.
🧠 Understand how breath can optimize decision making, communication, and stress management.
💪 How breathwork tools and skills can support you in your personal growth.
⚡ The potential of breath work to induce deep insight and transformative experiences.
⚖️ Recognizing the importance of healthy rest and recovery in our overstimulated world.
Jamie shares with us his personal experience, and offers a fascinating insight into breathwork and its profound impact on our well-being.
Note this episode is in two parts: this is the first part, and the second part will be released next week.
Find more about Jamie on his website, and check out his 21 day breathwork course.
Big shout out to my podcast magician, Marc at iRonickMedia for making this real.
Thanks for listening!
In the last couple of years, as the space has grown, the definition has also broadened. Often when I speak to people, taxi drivers, for example, they've gone from never having heard of breathwork. And not being interested to having heard of it. But usually the definition that the broadest group of the public would understand, is thinking about a simple breathing exercise. So oh, I've heard of breath work. Someone told me about box breathing, breathing, or exactly. And so that's where I think the clarity is important because I wouldn't want someone to sign up for a session thinking that they were going to come and do 10 minutes of box breathing with me, and then they end up having a deep profound experience of an altered state of consciousness.Catherine Stagg-Macey:
Hello, and welcome to answer at work. I am your host, Catherine Stagg Macy, I'm an executive and team coach. And I'm interested in the conversations that we don't have at work about work, we take about 25,000 breaths A Day Without a second thought. And yet a breath is the key to regulating our nervous system. And why would we care about that, because if we can regulate and manage our nervous system, we are better able to make better decisions be more effective in discerning our environment and our space, and ultimately be better at communicating. So really, your breath is the greatest leadership hack that you probably didn't know about, because I didn't know about it either. And that's what my guest this week, Jaime Clemens is coming on to talk to us about. Jamie Clements is a breathwork, coach and facilitator based in London, and he's the founder of breath space. He discovered breathwork, about four or five years ago, when he experienced a really profound transformation in this physical and mental well being, overcoming some really severe anxiety and mental health challenges that he had. And he goes into that story with us in the episode, he brings a lot of his own personal experience and his wisdom. And we talk about a number of things like the really the profound impact of breath on well being. And he goes into the sort of science and his personal experience, he has a great quote about the breath being the remote control of the nervous system. We talked about understanding how breath can optimize decision making and communicating and stress management who doesn't want a bit of that, how breath work tools and skills can support you on your personal growth journey to really get to understand yourself better. He explains breath work in sort of three pillars, which I found really handy, helpful way of breaking down what is quite a broad field. And a lot of things kind of get thrown in under the umbrella of breath work. I've had some experience with breath work both in sort of simple techniques, awareness and to buy things like bucks breath is all the way to sort of Holotropic breathwork. It really engage my curiosity. In fact, I met Jamie when he was running a breathwork session at a retreat some months ago and really, really engaged with him and had we had a great chat over lunch and thought he'd make a perfect guest for the podcast. I've learned so much from my time in the conversation with him. And I hope you do to note that this episode is in two parts. If you're listening to this one, episode 49. It is the first of two parts. And the second one will be released next week. And that we talk then more about altered states and success stories that he's had in the corporate world, working with people in breathwork. And how to get started like how to learn more if you are interested in this. But before we go and tune into that, we're gonna have some very real talk today about how to use your breath to optimize your leadership. And if you're itching to keep momentum beyond this podcast to keep going and creating a better workplace for yourself or for people around you have got something really special for you. I would love for you to sign up to my weekly newsletter every Tuesday it drops in your inbox, and really make sure it's packed full of fun and engaging stories about leadership. I'm often the butt of the story. And it's like a sort of mini escape from the office grind but with loads of inspiration and insights just to fuel your your journey. There are currently about 3900 people, people like you on that list like Sarah who says I love your emails, they make me feel human. I love that one. Or Julie who wrote back to me and said I want to say I find your emails so inspiring, usually forcing me to take a moment to really reflect on what is happening around me at the time. And so really appreciate them. Thank you God for that feedback. The signup link is at the bottom of the show notes and the weekly newsletter that gets you on the list. And the weekly email will land on your inbox and Tuesday mornings if you are already on the list. Yay. Thanks for that. Thanks for allowing me in your inbox and do hit reply every now and then and tell me what interests you what excites you about the newsletter? What are you enjoying about it? And without further ado, let's go listen to my conversation about breath with Jamie Clements. So Jamie Timmons. Welcome to unset at work it was one of the conversations I have really been looking forward to.Jamie Clements:
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, no, I'm very excited to be here. I thoroughly enjoyed well One of the conversations we've had prior to this and yeah, excited for this one as well.Catherine Stagg-Macey:
You're a breathwork practitioner, which is how I came across you. You hosted a wonderful retreat down near where where I live. That's how we got to meet and have a little conversation over lunch. And I think your personal story is so relevant to to people who will be listening. How did you get to didn't start out, No one wakes up saying we want to be a breathwork practitioner, none of us very few of us know what it even means. And we will get to that listeners a Debbie patient, what was your story to becoming a breathwork? practitioner?Jamie Clements:
Yeah, so I by all intents and purposes, had a relatively typical childhood typical upbringing, went to a fairly good school played a lot of sport growing up, was a Yeah, I'd say a fairly normal child, my parents might slightly disagree with that. I then went on to study economics got a degree in economics with grand plans of going into finance and following a path that had been sort of laid out for me by by my dad, not an in direct influence from from them saying this is what we think you should do. But it was certainly a, we follow those, those obvious paths, if we don't, you know, have much of an idea outside of that will come very, very common. And I started going down that path. I interned in investment banking, and retail banking, and private banking, and lots of different different parts of the finance world. And fortunately realized that it wasn't for me, before I entered the world of work. So I then started working, I wanted to try and honor my degree in some way and the path that I had been heading down, but also something that felt a little bit more me. And so I ended up working in FinTech and fintech startups, and found myself in in the startup world in sales, account management growth, sort of commercial land within the startup landscape. And I was there for about, I'd say, probably five, yeah, the best part of five or six years, across a number of different companies and roles. And throughout all of that kind of brief history of of me, through school and teenage life and university and early career under the surface. And then later on a lot close to the surface, I was having challenges with my mental health. So I had, from the age of 15, until, well, it's an ongoing journey with with mental health, but probably 15 to 25, I had some real challenges with specifically anxiety and panic attacks in my early 20s. And I was working at a company that was not conducive to that it was very, I was running a sales team, it was very high pressure, very traditional, traditional management of sales and everything that comes with that. And I think just the there was a series of events where I was in a new relationship that was causing me quite a lot of anxiety, the job was extremely stressful. And I lost a friend all in the space of about three months. And that pushed me to a point or to a breaking point, ultimately. And it was from there that I started exploring ways that I could support myself, I had no other choice at that time, other than to try and get myself out of this place that I was in. And that took a number of different forms. But breathwork was a core core part of that, for me, it was ultimately the biggest catalyst for change, when it came to, to the initial journey with with my mental health. And it's still a big part of it ongoing today, on a personal level. And so I spent probably the best part of two years immersing myself in my own personal practice, and then realized that this was I had a couple of specific experiences where I just I just, it totally blew me away to the point where I felt this desire this urge this calling whatever we want to call it, to share it with other people. And I really felt like I'd found something that I could support others with. And I've found a lot of fulfillment and purpose in that pursuit of being of service to other people. And I feel very, very fortunate for that, to have found that and to be able to now call it a job, call it work and continue to learn more and continue to build my own personal practice, but also build my business and my brand and everything around that as well.Catherine Stagg-Macey:
It's extraordinary. You have to someone's got a rock bottom to really ask ourselves those existential questions of what is going to give my life meaning and purpose. Yeah, I'm so glad you found that what was your we'll get into what we mean by Braithwaite. But before we get to that, did you have some assumptions around breath work and what what it was about?Jamie Clements:
Yeah, I think wasn't the first thing you went to. Right? Exactly. So I sort of got into traditional therapy and CBT as a starting point, as I think a lot of people do when you find yourself in a challenging place. I then started getting into I've always been into sport and exercise, but I started getting into yoga I started getting into I always think yoga is a incredible gateway. It's sort of a spiritual practice under the Aside have a physical practice. And I think that was a big a big gateway for me into things like meditation and then eventually breathwork. And, yes, a bit that I skipped over in that initial story was just how reluctant and resistant I was to go to a breathwork session when when it was suggested to me, I was still a very close minded, early 20s, young man. And the idea of this kind of unknown, esoteric, spiritually led practice brought up a lot of resistance. And just this sense of, I don't think that's for me, or a lot of the things that I hear now on the other side of the coin, which is, it's just breathing, how impactful could it be? What could it possibly have to offer me, I've been breathing my whole life. And it's now really amusing to be able to look back on that. And it's very insightful for me, I still really try my best in all of my work to appeal to that version of myself. I'm like, what would he have wanted to hear? What would he have wanted? What would he have needed to engage in it, perhaps a little bit more quickly, with a little bit less skepticism, and everyone comes to this work in their own way at their own time. But I really do try and keep me at 24 in the back of my mind and the front of my mind when I'm thinking about how I approached my work so that I don't alienate the people who perhaps need it the most, but don't feel like they can access it for whatever reason.Catherine Stagg-Macey:
And what is one of those lessons that you've learned about? What would you say to your 25 year old self to create that bridge? Because I think a lot of people like breathing, I mean, I breathe, breathe anyway, like, what's his point?Jamie Clements:
What would I say to him? Now, I think one thing I enjoy about how I approach my work, and it's something that that I found a lot of, a lot of, pleasure in, and success in ultimately has been, I like to find myself sitting in the middle ground. So I can have a conversation with someone who is incredibly spiritually minded and more into their spiritual practice than I am perhaps further down that path than I am. And I can talk to them and speak their language. But I can also walk into a boardroom, in the city and speak that language. And I think it's about tailoring and adapting the conversation to understand who you're speaking to, and actually really having a grasp of who is this person in front of me. And so when it comes to the corporate work that I do, or the work with men that I do, or the work with teenage boys that I've done in the past? I'm like, Okay, what did they actually want to hear? That still factual and true and honest about this practice. And in a lot of cases, what I found landed for me when I was 2324, and discovering this, this work was the science, the logic, the rationale, the the understanding of, okay, I'm telling you that this can alleviate the anxiety that you're feeling. And you're going Yeah, right. And then if I can tell you, why, because of the role of the breath within the nervous system, and how it can function within that, and the research that might back that up and actually give you this compelling case for why that outcome is likely, then all of a sudden, skeptics go, least I'll give this a try. It might not be for me, and I'm the first to admit that it might not be for everyone. But actually, if you can, the thing for me, is kind of get those people in a room in the first place. That's the hurdle because I think once people are in the room, the practice speaks for itself. And so it's about okay, how do we get these people in the conversation, and then in the room actually giving this a shot?Catherine Stagg-Macey:
I feel that about my coaching work as well as there's a lot of there's still so much skepticism and people don't understand what goes on. And how do you hide, you just get fun, somebody to try to give it a go and to show up. So let's define breath work beyond breathing in and out like I do every day. Give us a definition.Jamie Clements:
One liner breathwork is any way that we can use our breath to shift our state physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, that I've found is a fantastic pithy one liner, but does certainly doesn't help clarify itCatherine Stagg-Macey:
one, though. It's like, wow, there's a lot going on. There's a lot of that statement. I'm like, wow.Jamie Clements:
But my own, I guess my own issues with that statement is it's it's so incredibly broad. It doesn't really tell you what it is, it goes, okay. You've just told me that I can use my breath to do these things. But what does that even mean? And so I sort of go the next level and layer beneath that I start talking about in my work, what I call full spectrum breathwork, which is this umbrella term of breath work that spans a number of different practice areas, a number of different modalities that span the ancient through to the very modern, and span also the very scientific through to the very spiritual. I typically break that down into three constituent parts, the first being functional breathing, so we're looking within the realm of functional breathing, actually, how are we breathing? day to day moment to moment, what is your natural resting state of breath? How has that developed over the course of your life? How is everything up into this point fed into your natural breathing pattern? And how is that natural breathing pattern either hindering you or supporting you? And how can we look to work with that to correct any dysfunction that might be there so very much about respiratory physiology Biomek very much done that scientific end of the spectrum. The second part of the spectrum being more about nervous system regulation.Catherine Stagg-Macey:
This is the the wearable that they're like the oops, and the aura rings, do they help you measure your breath? Are they just helping measures the outcome of that functional breath?Jamie Clements:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the wearables are with their limitations, they are still very helpful when it comes to understanding functional breathing, because most of them will give you your respiratory rate as a starting point, breaths per minute is one of our basic measures of functional breathing, and heart rate variability being the other. The other key metric here, which is feeding into more what you're mentioning there, sort of the end result of what breathwork can give you. So HRV, heart rate variability being a metric and a measure of the state of regulation and readiness of your nervous system. And as I'm sure we'll talk more about, as we go through the conversation, the breath is intricately and intrinsically entwined with with the nervous system and the functioning of it. Right, yeah,Catherine Stagg-Macey:
we'll get it we'll get on to it. And a lot of our listeners, like like wearables, so I wanted to throw that in. For those of us who like data, including me, I have just ordered my new my, my aura ring as well. So I guess that's the first lizard level here is functional breadth. Second,Jamie Clements:
yeah, so the second beautifully feeds on from from that conversation about heart rate variability, which is looking at nervous system regulation through breath. So the breath, as we just mentioned, there is a pivotal part of something called the autonomic nervous system, the autonomic nervous system governing all of our bodies, automatic functioning, heart rate, pupil dilation, saliva, production, digestion, so on and so forth, and breath. But breath is the only part of that system that we can also consciously control. And so the breath acts as this remote control, ultimately into the nervous system to create change, either to shift into it. That's a great metaphor. I first heard it from Patrick McEwen is the founder of the oxygen advantage. And I think it's just the perfect metaphor, because it really does hit the nail on the head, it's if you want to shift into a desired state or shift out of an undesired state, how can I breathe in this moment to create that intentional change in the state of my nervous system, and that's really that centerpiece. And that second pillar, which is using the breath as a tool actively and consciously to create changes in state.Catherine Stagg-Macey:
And anyone listening will recognize the intention of not having the skill of going, I'm going into something that I'm nervous about an interview or a presentation, I think we rely a lot on on the mindset and manipulating, trying to manage our perspectives. And those moments were actually the power lies and the, the breath being the remote control of the situation. So we'll get into we'll get into more of why anyone should care about this. I'm loving this. Okay, so that's the that's the second. Yeah. I suppose the pillarJamie Clements:
number two? Yeah, the third pillar being something that I haven't quite nailed down a singular definition of, but what we would talk about is these deeper healing modalities of breath, work, transformational styles of breath work, where we're starting to step into the conversation in the realm of altered states of consciousness of transcendent experiences of catharsis of, yeah, much more spiritually led introspective, explorative practices as well. And so that that's where I think it's important to have this sort of breakdown of the different parts of breathwork. Because, as hopefully people will be able to see just from what we've talked about in the last five or so minutes, functional breathing, and the state of your respiratory system and the biomechanics of respiration are pretty vastly different to creating an altered state of consciousness experience through breath. And, yes, there's certainly crossover in this sort of broader breathwork Venn diagram. But then I think it's important to have an understanding of, let's say, for example, people are signing up for a breathwork session, what actually are they stepping into in that in that room? In that time in that space? Is it to talk about respiratory science? Is it to talk about the nervous system? Is it to talk about altered states of consciousness and have a journey and experience with that? And I think, as practitioners, we have a duty to be quite clear about that so that people know what they're getting themselves into, and as such can have the best possible experience.Catherine Stagg-Macey:
My assumption when I see people talk about breathwork sessions, The line is there talking about that third pillar, the altered state experience. That's just an assumption I might be wrong. I hadn't thought of seeing it through those lenses, whether that be true if people are pitching, or selling breathwork workshops or sessions, are we are we more on that in the third pillar?Jamie Clements:
I'd like to say yes. The only reason I'm hesitant is because I think maybe three years ago, that would have been very, very true. In the last couple of years, as the space has grown. The definition has also broadened. Often when I speak to people, taxi drivers, for example, they've gone from never having heard of breath work, and not being interested to having heard of it. But usually, the definition that the broadest group of the public would understand, is thinking about a simple breathing exercise. So oh, I've heard of breath work. Someone told me about box breathing, box breathing, or exactly. And so that's where I think the clarity is important, because I wouldn't want someone to sign up for a session thinking that they were going to come and do 10 minutes of box breathing with me. And then they end up having a deep, profound experience of an altered state of consciousness. It's a challenging piece of the puzzle. But I think it's an important piece of the puzzle to help people understand, what breathwork are we referring to here? Or what do we mean by breathwork? When we're talking about it here,Catherine Stagg-Macey:
I've had a few clients recently talked to me about the book called Breath by James master. That's right, and opening up conversation with their peers around and it's more the first and the second is the role of breath, wow, the impact on your nervous system and your health, sleep, using tape of your mouth at nighttime to force the nasal breathing, because that's really the power should we bring to our mouth. So it's always like, I don't mean to diminish this. It's stuff I'm still learning, but it's sort of breathing one to one where we as human beings should be should know about the very mechanism that keeps us alive. Absolutely. So yeah, I'm enthusiastic that people are reading that book, I think he's done a great job at opening up a conversation about what this is.Jamie Clements:
Yeah, 100% he, I think he's done a fantastic job. I think his his way of writing and storytelling has, has really helped with that, because he obviously had a journalistic background, and he was able to bring that that lens to this work and make it very pragmatic, very practical, very accessible, whereas a lot of the books that went before him, were very kind of textbook like, very kind of it's it's science led textbook style reading. And I think that's, it's challenging for the for the mass market to really engage with that, unless you're a committed practitioner, or teacher of these things,Catherine Stagg-Macey:
or science geek, who just loves the physiology of it. Yeah, you've laid out your three pillars beautifully. Let's talk about why anyone should care beyond the interest. Because really, your pitch here is and it's particularly the cup of work you do about optimizing your leadership. Yes. So you've got at this point, you have everyone's attention now. So the stage is yours.Jamie Clements:
Yeah, it's something and again, I think, sort of ties back to that point I was I was making earlier around, what is it that catches the ear of, of these people in a certain certain realm? What do we need to talk about to get people in the room and in the conversation, and I think when it comes to the corporate world, and performance, and optimization is a word that comes up a lot in these spaces, and I think it's an important place to start. So why should anyone care? Where I'd want to start with that is, again, with that first pillar of functional breathing, which is saying, we take on average, as an adult, most of us somewhere between 22 and 27,000, breaths every single day, if you are doing that in a way that is not supportive of your physical, mental and emotional well being, you're doing something over 20,000 times a day, that isn't helping you. And so that, to me, is sort of my first port of call going, let's make it simple. Do those 20,000 breaths a little bit better, every day, things are gonna get better. As simple as that. Then I think, to talk more to sort of optimization, we start talking about the nervous system. And I talk a lot as I did in that definition, about this idea of nervous system regulation and the science and the way that we can present this is our breath can help us live from a more healthy, flexible, optimized state of regulation within the nervous system. And people sort of nod along at that point and go, Okay, great. And I realized that I spent a lot of time saying things like that, and most people are going, what does that look like in practice? What does that give me? What does that actually mean? What's the next step? How does that show up in my life? How would I be able to tell that I am living from that place and it shows up in so many different ways. So I always like to say we experienced our lives through through the lens of our nervous system, the best example being, if you're in a state of hyper vigilance and over activation within the nervous system, you're gonna see danger all around you, you could be in exactly the same scenario, same circumstances from a more balanced and regulated place in your nervous system. And there's no danger all of a sudden. And so it's actually the lens through which you see the world is defined and determined by your nervous system. And so how that might show up in a corporate setting will be less reactivity, through less reactivity, that's better decision making, you have an increased capacity for effective discernment, you can communicate with your teams better, you can empathize with your teams better, you can manage your own stress, at home and at work, you are just functioning from a higher level within yourself. And that is about as compelling kind of use cases we can find, because it's not just one area of your life, this is how you experience life will improve, whatever that looks like for you. And I think that's the beauty of of breathwork for me is we can go in different directions with it. If you're someone who struggles with energy, we can help with that we can actually help to bring that sense of focus and energy into your system. If you're someone who struggles with more over activation, your high stress your high functioning anxiety, we can start to bring that down to a healthier place. And so it's not just about saying, everyone do this, it's about saying, Where is your nervous system at right now? And how can we meet you there to support you to come into that place of regulation, and that sort of tailoring and bespoke element, I think is really, really empowering and really impactful. And you can give people the tools to use themselves, I never really want to be working with someone for years and years, I would like to work with someone for maybe for three to six months, and they go cool. I'm in this balanced place now. And you've given me the tools that I can use to do this myself. And there might be business people listening to this going, it's a terrible business model. And I go, I just, I just don't care, I just don't care that's I want to be able to support themselves. And there's enough people out there that need support in all different forms. And as I said earlier, breathwork isn't the be all and end all. It's not the cure all for every person every time. But I do believe it has the capacity to support all of us in some shape or form.Catherine Stagg-Macey:
I'll ever toolbox in your breath, where you get your own tools that rely on someone else or aligned and on a day me to take you or help you with that, that once you've finished working with a person. And awareness again, I get a sense that there's a very embodied experience in this creative energy and space, whatever, depending on what you're working on, and they go, Oh, I've visited this new land where I feel energized. Wow, I didn't even know that was possible. These tools get me there. Because I think sometimes the back to our definition and how people relate to definitions. It sounds interesting. Not yet. Okay. But when you've had that physical, embodied experience of that amazing new land that you've never been to before, you know, wow, that's real. That's not fantasy I can get there. Yay.Jamie Clements:
Absolutely. Yeah, I think that for me was one of the things that made breathwork stick on a personal level was the the visceral kind of embodied nature of it. And I can't remember the name of the individual whose quote this is, but it's, I believe in Native Indian American quote that says knowledge is a rumor until it lives in the muscle. So I can tell you all of these things, I can tell you why this works. But until you feel the real effect of that in your body and in your nervous system. Then you go Yeah, sounds great in principle, but and so I think that to me, with breathwork being a somatically led practice, that body based body first practice is where a lot of the aha moments come from, because you're not just sort of thinking your way through this, you're actively doing something and feeling and outcome and feeling. Yeah, that that change and that shift and you can't deny that at that point, it becomes factCatherine Stagg-Macey:
I can vouch for that. I think I've done six or seven breathwork sessions so in the pillar three years so the Holotropic breathwork is sort of where we've used it but the the transformational kind of small spiritual side of breathwork and it hasn't blown things open for me yet. I'm sure there's also reasons why but I have felt enough for that keeps me going back. Absolutely. Because it does feel there's some something altered in me in my my science brain is like, well, what is that and how do you measure that? And that's like, I don't know. It's what the point so I'm saying that for people listening you were put there I think probably like me as well as like, what's the measurement of it like when you get into that pillar three, it's a real felt sense and and knowing that something is different.Jamie Clements:
Yeah. 100% I think, and I digging into my quote book here, but it was one of the most impactful sessions that I had, that was And there's a quote from Zora Neale Hurston, which says, You have to go there to know that. And I think that, for me was a big, big piece of the puzzle was like, you've got to really dive into these spaces in order to, to know that change is possible or to know that there's a different way of things being. And yeah, when we do get into that, that deeper end of the breathwork spectrum, I had a very similar experience, I think in my first six to nine months of breathwork, where I was like, I've not had the big breakthrough here that I've heard other people talk about, I've not had the big catharsis, I've not had deep clarity on anything in particular, but I've had enough, there's something going on, that kept me coming back. And that I think, is a really interesting piece of the puzzle. Because there's always, as you described, perfectly, this desire to understand the why there's the Western mind comes through strong going, what's going on here, I want to understand this. And ultimately, a lot of those practices at the deeper end are purely a game of surrender, and a practice of surrender. And that's, that's a special but challenging realm within kind of introspection and personal development,Catherine Stagg-Macey:
suffering, there's not something I'm good at. I really do love that metaphor that Jamie says about breath being a remote control for our nervous system, I have to admit that I wasn't that clued up on the impact of the nervous system on your lived experience, until I started my own journey in therapy several years ago now. And yeah, it really sort of blew my mind open that we have. We have this nervous system that is really running the show, and that we have some way of being in relationship with it and just having a better lived experience. So to have something as simple but deeply effective as our breath help us manage our experience I find really exciting. You don't need access to therapy or to drugs or to doctors know your breath is available right here right now to all of us. And this conversation is in two parts. So come back next week, and we're going to continue the conversation with Jamie and we talk about his experience and success in working with people in the corporate world using breathwork. The similarities between breath work and psychedelics are just super interesting, even if the research is quite new and a whole bunch of resources that will help you get started on your own exploration around using your breath to optimize your leadership. Until then, this is your wingwoman signing off.