Unveiling the Male Experience of Grief: A Journey of Hope and Healing

Josh** ((00:00:02)) - - Good day fellas. Welcome to Uncensored Advice for men. Man. Did you hear my microphone at squeaked a little when I moved it. Rode? You got to tighten up, guys. on today's show, we we're going to have a conversation with my new friend Jarie, which is really cool. So imagine a jar full of E's. That's how you pronounce his name. And, we're going to talk about his story, and, and he he mentioned some things prior in the green room that I think would be helpful for you guys. Right. He's going to talk about, grief, how to walk through it, how not to take it on as an identity and be the grief guy. Right. Oh, here comes Josh, the grief guy. Okay. Everybody. Right. so, let's invite him to the show, and, Here we go. Jerry, welcome.

Jarie** ((00:00:55)) - -  Yeah. Thanks, Josh, for having me. It's a real honor and a pleasure to talk to you.

Josh** ((00:00:59)) - -  Yeah. So let's start with this.

Josh** ((00:01:01)) - -  Why did your parents name you Jari? It's such a unique name. Like they're just messing with you going through kindergarten like. No, it's Jari, it's Jari. Right?

Jarie** ((00:01:10)) - -  Oh my God. Do you want the long answer? The short answer?

Josh** ((00:01:13)) - -  Yeah. Let's go for it. Go for the long one, man.

Jarie** ((00:01:15)) - -  Okay. So technically it's Dutch, okay. But the actually it's made up. And what's interesting is that my grandfather, my mom's dad, who was my mom, was born in literally World War two, occupied Netherlands when the Germans rolled in. Whole, whole crazy stuff. My grandfather, my mom's dad was in the Dutch resistance. The underground. He He was at the, If you ever seen the movie A Bridge Too Far. Yeah. The the battle of Arnhem. Okay. Where? I don't remember the specific.

Josh** ((00:01:50)) - -  Details of it, but I did.

Jarie** ((00:01:51)) - -  See that battle was in the Netherlands. It was the bridge too far that they couldn't take because of all these panzers or whatever.

Jarie** ((00:01:57)) - -  My grandfather was there and it was like crazy. He would tell these stories about how nutty that time was. But his his name was Ari. Ari. And, my dad's family had nine kids, five boys and four girls. He was a farm boy from Kansas. How? A farm boy from Kansas and a sophisticated European from the Netherlands got together. Is a whole other story, right? but in his family, all of the boys were named Jack John, Jim, Jerry and Joe. So my dad and his infinite wisdom said, I will put a J in front of Ari, and I will make Jerry. And the rest is history. it was a horrible way to come up with a weird name. Yeah. but, you know, I, I, I don't have a problem with it as much as other people do. Sometimes they'll be like, no, it's really jarring. Why are you not screwing this name up? I'm like, look, it's a funny name. but I think part of that, part of that is like, you know, the Johnny Cash song, A Boy Named Sue.

Jarie** ((00:03:07)) - -  He's sort of like, the only thing I gave you was a crappy name. So people can feel get beat up a lot. I didn't get beat up a lot, but yeah, it was different. But this is kind of cool.

Josh** ((00:03:16)) - -  What was the. What was your favorite nickname growing up? Right, Joe. Joey's unique enough, but I'm sure you guys had fun with your name.

Jarie** ((00:03:23)) - -  My God, like, my last name is Bolander, so it's like Jabba, jar man. I mean, just so many, like, you know, people would screw it up and call me Jerry or Yari or, you know, all sorts of weird stuff, but, But, you know, I mean, you know, I grew up in the suburbs of San Francisco, and, you know, I'm Gen X, I grew up in the 70s and 80s. And while kids were cruel and, you know, especially hanging around with the boys, you know, it's just part of growing up, and I, I liked, you know, Jarman was probably the best, the best nickname, like, because, you know, you know, you don't get to pick your nickname.

Jarie** ((00:04:07)) - -  Yeah. No, that's that's that's the that's the others to decide.

Josh** ((00:04:12)) - -  Actually, I got to pick my nickname. there's a lot of nicknames that were given to me that I didn't get a pick, but I was in a charity boxing match, and they're like, oh, so what's your, what's your nickname? And I was like, I'm the Jewish hammer. So that's the only time I got to take my nickname. All other names were, you know, words were not allowed to use today because people are too sensitive.

Jarie** ((00:04:37)) - -  100%. 100%. Oh, I love it. Jewish hammer. Love it. I want to call Josh.

Josh** ((00:04:43)) - -  Jarboe and Jarhead. Man, I like your nickname. Oh, Jarhead.

Jarie** ((00:04:46)) - -  Oh, that's actually that that that's that's another one. Jarhead.

Josh** ((00:04:50)) - -  Yeah. So, So here we are. Jarboe. and, we're we're chatting about grief, and, why why are we here talking about grief?

Jarie** ((00:05:05)) - -  Yeah. So, seven years ago, I my wife Jane died of leukemia after a 15 month battle, which, you know, she was 36 when she died.

Jarie** ((00:05:19)) - -  So it was tragic in all sorts of different ways. I actually wrote a book about it called Ride or Die Loving Through Tragedy A Husband's Memoir, which is on Amazon, etc. in fact, I'm in the process of releasing the audiobook, which I actually narrate, which that's a whole other discussion on how challenging but beautiful and hopeful. I mean, it's just it's just like a labor of love, as you can imagine. and so. Before Jane died, we had a pretty frank and honest discussion about what would happen after. She's like, look, if I don't make it, man, like, I know you're going to have one, you're going to handle this very poorly because I just know you. And two, I really want you to be happy and find love again. And, you know, be be a productive member of society in so many words. and I struggled to do that. I abused alcohol and drugs to sort of just numb the pain. and that was sort of my I mean, alcohol is my go to numbing mechanism my whole life, I mean, back growing up in the 70s and 80s, especially in the 80s suburbs, Gen-X, like all we did was drink every weekend in high school.

Jarie** ((00:06:40)) - -  and so.

Josh** ((00:06:43)) - -  It's an acceptable drug.

Jarie** ((00:06:45)) - -  Yeah. And it's a horrible one. I mean, now I'm six years sober and I'm like, gosh, why didn't I do this sooner? You know, because, like, clarity, you know, like, I don't need it, you know? But you're right. Yeah. It's acceptable. It was readily available, and everyone was doing it. So the, the thing that I felt during that whole entire time, both the 15 months leading up to her death and then for about a year after her death, was. I just felt so alone. I didn't find anything out there, and it was like telling the story of grief and sorrow from a male perspective. And there's plenty of books that sort of touch on it. There's a lot of books from the female perspective, actually, a lot of great ones, like The Year of Magical Thinking by Joan Didion's. It's just fantastic book. T.S. Eliot wrote one, A Grief Observed, which is probably the only one from a male perspective that's mainstream enough.

Jarie** ((00:07:43)) - -  But there's like countless other ones that would describe how women would go through this grieving process. And I try to read and understand them and then also try to go to grief groups to try to like, gosh, I got to get better. I feel really sad all the time. I mean, there was a time, you know, I live in San Francisco, and I was walking down the street and I looked at a bus and I go, I wonder what would happen if I walked in front of that bus. I wonder what it would feel like because I just was numb, you know? and so thankfully, I had a great group of friends and a family and a support network that while they didn't sort of see the challenges and struggles I went through after they read the book, they're like, how come you didn't tell me? And I'm like, Hard to say. Hard to talk about, right? As a man, even worse. Right? Yeah. You know, I wish I could tell you what I need.

Jarie** ((00:08:37)) - -  I wish I could, like, figure this shit out. I just don't know, you know? but going through that, you know, Valley of the Shadow of Death, so to speak, the trough of sorrow, the battling the demons of addiction, sorrow, grief, you know, being a widower. I was a widower at 46. It's like, what the hell am I? You know, I don't know what the hell is going on, right? And as I started to think about it, I realized that the narrative around male grief is pretty shitty. it's not very well done. and people tend to box this in to the predominant narrative, which is talk about it, share your feelings, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And, you know, most men don't do that. And it's not because they don't want to. It's because we don't know how in most cases, they don't know how. Yeah. Augusten Burroughs wrote a great book called This is how about dealing with his stuff? And that's another fantastic book from a male perspective, not about grief and sorrow, which is about loss and catastrophe and like how he went through it.

Jarie** ((00:09:51)) - -  And so, you know, I, I, I just sat down and I'm like, how can I help other men get through grief and not just get through it, but also become resilient to it and then have growth past it. And I think one of the things that I'm just so thankful of, like every day, you know, I met a wonderful woman, I'm engaged again. I've got a really great life, you know, it's got its ups and downs. You know, I've been sober for six years, which has been fantastic. I'm trying to, like, use this grief and sorrow and to to kind of accelerate my life moving forward. And I, you know, as I thought about it, I'm like, well, I don't want to be the grief guy. I want to be the resilience guy. Like, this is how you get through it. This is how you get through probably one of the worst situations you can get through. Or other than maybe losing a child or I mean, I don't I've never that's never happened to me.

Jarie** ((00:10:55)) - -  But, you know, losing a spouse is pretty close to, like, pretty horrible thing because a lot of guys, you know, they do. You know, there's three, three ways men deal with grief, right? They hit the bottle or drugs. They can battle it or they bite a bullet. you know, men are really good at killing themselves. So they're committed. That's, you know, and that's tragedy, especially nowadays where you see men and boys successfully committing suicide at like a pretty astounding rate, given all the grief and sorrow that they feel. So I wanted to show a different way, and I wanted to show this post grief, growth, and someone you know that's been through it Can can help other people get through it, but also that you don't need to. You got to own your own narrative, right? Like if someone says, oh, you need to talk about it and you're not ready to talk about it, well, that's bullshit, because if you sometimes talk about this, this stuff, you relive it, you actually feel it.

Jarie** ((00:12:03)) - -  And for the first year after Jane died, every time I talked about, I felt it. Now I don't. Now it's it's integrated. But. We're all going to face grief and sorrow and loss in tough times. And as men, we need to figure out how we deal with it in a productive way. Not always going to be productive. Sometimes shit happens and you got to do what you got to do. But I just want men to own the narrative more and not have other people own their narrative. And that's why I wrote the book. That's why I talk about it. It's why I'm on talking with you about what you're doing. I really appreciate that. I think it's rare what you're doing is very rare. A lot of people don't want to go out on a limb and talk about this stuff They feel we don't have a voice as men to talk about it, and that's bullshit. Everyone else does. Why can't we? Like, we're roughly half the population. I mean, you know, we also start predominantly where the people in prison predominantly we're the people that that have violence, predominantly the people that start war.

Jarie** ((00:13:17)) - -  So maybe we should get our shit together and start owning some stuff, you know.

Josh** ((00:13:28)) - -  Oh right. Heavy.

Jarie** ((00:13:31)) - -  Heavy. Yeah.

Josh** ((00:13:32)) - -  And even though those seven years ago it still has this like lingering heaviness. And I didn't know Jane and I just met you. And it's like when we talk about it, we both kind of carry it. Now, I'm not comparing. I know you're carrying it a lot more, but I think that's why from my vantage point here, which is limited and I'm not the smartest dude in the room. Well, actually, I'm the only guy in the room. I'm the smartest guy in the room right now.

Jarie** ((00:14:03)) - -  This never happened. What are you talking about? You're the Jewish hammer. I'm the Jewish.

Josh** ((00:14:06)) - -  Freaking hammer lady. The and gentlemen. Only guys. Actually, some girls listen to this, too. It's weird, all right, but it's great. Where the heck was I going before the squirrel jumped in the room with me? the. From my heaviness.

Jarie** ((00:14:18)) - -  Of the topic.

Josh** ((00:14:19)) - -  The heaviness of the conversation. And I think that's why guys, a lot of times will avoid asking another dude. Hey, man, your wife just died. What's going on? Like in your world? What, you know, like or just asking questions? Because the fear of one. Am I going to ask the wrong thing? Am I going to? When I get nervous, I say inappropriate, insensitive jokes, period. And I get myself into trouble all the time. My wife is super introverted and shy, is always stabbing me in the side because I say that's how I deal with grief and awkwardness, right? So as a guy who's going to say something wrong. Yeah, with a guy who's dealing with the worst traumatic thing, a lot of us guys go, well, we're just not going to talk about it. Hey, man, how you doing? Good, Bob. Good. You know. So how do we approach this from? Give me some advice.

Josh** ((00:15:19)) - -  Yeah. Insensitive. Going to crack jokes. Say the wrong thing at the wrong time. I, I get nervous, am I? I'm like I'm doing here. I'm just talking too much. I'm going to shut up. Give me some advice.

Jarie** ((00:15:32)) - -  Yeah. So I think what's what's the most valuable advice that I can give anyone that has to deal with, especially men that are going through grief and sorrow and trauma. Right. It's just acknowledge that it's messed up. Like, look, this is horrible. Like, don't don't sugarcoat it. Don't say she's in a better place. Don't say I'm sorry for those platitudes don't work literally. Like, that's screwed up, man. I'm sorry you have to deal with that bullshit. If you just lead with that, the rest of it's going to flow. Because, see, the other thing that's really weird is that when you're a widower, people treat you different and you feel weird about that. most men don't want to be treated different. We want to be treated like we're we're competent.

Jarie** ((00:16:20)) - -  We're part of the boys, you know, like, I, I do, I do jujitsu, right? And talk about a bunch of knuckle draggers. You know, we do jiu jitsu. Yeah, I'm a purple belt in jiu jitsu. Nice. Just got promoted. Just got promoted.

Josh** ((00:16:33)) - -  Congratulations.

Jarie** ((00:16:35)) - -  Thank you. Yeah. Bey jiu jitsu.

Josh** ((00:16:37)) - -  I want to fight you. One day we'll fight.

Jarie** ((00:16:39)) - -  Yeah, sure. That'd be great. What? You. You a practitioner too?

Josh** ((00:16:44)) - -  I, I am, I, I, I, I subscribe I'm totally taking this on the rabbit trail. Maybe we'll go visit this again, but you're just inappropriate. Jokes just ran through my head. I wrestle Roman Greco style, so only naked. No, I'm just kidding. All right. Cool. I was a wrestler in high school. I did a little bit. Oh, awesome. But, All right, back to the real story here, all right? You don't want to be. Yeah, yeah.

Josh** ((00:17:09)) - -  No no.

Jarie** ((00:17:09)) - -  No. Well, so this is the thing. The other thing is, if this is authentically who you are. Yeah. And your buddies know this, or you've met someone like people appreciate the authentic even saying like, bro, I don't know what to say. This I this is I'm at a loss for words. This is so screwed up is better than the platitudes, right? And the reason is, is you're having an authentic this is who you are. Like, if you crack jokes like I crack jokes all the time, like, this is the way I am. I love your jacket and poking fun. I mean, come on, man. Like, we're we're at the gym and we're like, you know, throwing around alpha beta jokes, all that bullshit, right? Like, because we're about to kill each other. Yeah, we're we're literally like, I'm going to choke you out or break your arm, metaphorically. But like, our job, like we're in this is combat training.

Jarie** ((00:17:58)) - -  If you look at the military, all those people that are like life and death is online, all of them have macabre, sensitive humor. And the reason is that it alleviates attention. So from an from a helping someone that's going through bullshit like this, it's literally acknowledging that it's bad situation. You know, like, gosh, this is really screwed up. I don't even know what to say, man. I'm sorry. Do you have to deal with this is the best opening you could ever say because then the other then the principal said, hey, I appreciate that, man. I know this is screwed up and then you just get the conversation going. I think the other thing that I, I really appreciate, I try to do this every time I've met someone who, who's lost a partner or a, you know, kid or whatever. And and this, this works for me. It may not work for for you. It may not work for most people. I think it will just because it shows curiosity.

Jarie** ((00:18:48)) - -  I said, what? What was their name? Tell me their name. Their like. Oh, name was was was Jim. I said, oh, what was Jim's favorite thing? Tell me what their favorite thing was, because then they're a real person. It's not about them dying. It's about I want to remember them. Like when someone says, what was your OJ? What did you like the most about Jane ago? She just had a great sense of humor and she would just rib me constantly. I mean, she'd call me like, you know, we were ten years apart, right? She'd call me old balls. All the.

Josh** ((00:19:19)) - -  Balls. Yeah.

Jarie** ((00:19:20)) - -  Exactly. Right. And you're like, gosh, can you just. And you just sit there and cringe. You're like, you know. And she would just make words up and she just such full of life. And yes, it's tragic she died and I and that's horrible. But remembering the good and remembering like oh yeah like and I've seen this happen like there's like just a dynamic.

Jarie** ((00:19:45)) - -  Oh yeah. You know, my wife died and people don't know what to say. And the person that says, like, what was her name? What did you like about her? The conversation immediately turns to joy. It's sad that she's gone or he is gone. But the joy of remembering a great story, like there's so many great Jane stories. I could go on forever right. Yeah. so I would say that I would say it's more acknowledging how screwed up the situation is. And if you're going to crack a joke, crack a joke. I mean, that you would you. But I think first and foremost, I would say acknowledge this is a screwed up situation. I'm sorry you have to deal with this. I wish, I, I wish, I wish I had better words, but I'm struggling with this because it's awkward if you just be honest. Yeah, 99% of the time people will be like, wow, you are so thoughtful and helpful. You are your you will be better than 99% of the people in the world.

Josh** ((00:20:46)) - -  Damn it, dude. All right. So as you were talking, what happens in my squirrel brain is my brain thinks of, you know, I'm actively listening. But just the way my brain operates as I'm listening. And then a question pops up, I know from the audience and I go, shit, I've got to ask that. This is going to be a tough one. You gave me permission to ask it. All right, so with every marriage, I've been married almost 15 years this month, right? With every marriage or every relationship period. There's things about the person that just drive you freaking nuts. Was there something about Jane that drove you freaking nuts?

Jarie** ((00:21:22)) - -  So many different things. What was.

Josh** ((00:21:24)) - -  That?

Jarie** ((00:21:24)) - -  I mean, I even write about it in the book. Yeah. One of the things I tried to do was really capture who she was and not make her Saint Jane. A lot of books when you read there, like, this person was a saint. And I'm like, memoir bullshit.

Jarie** ((00:21:36)) - -  Yeah, bullshit. No one's a saint. I'm not a saint. Believe me, I'm not a saint. I would say some of the things that just that absolutely would annoy me about her was she loved to pack stuff in. And I'm I'm a highly functional introvert, so people don't jazz me up. Like I get exhausted. I literally have to nap. If I'm interacting with too many people, I just I'm done. I'm over it, right? I can fake it really well. And, you know, it's like you'd never know by talking to me. But because my day job as I do sales and marketing consulting, so I have to sort of be that way. But she would want to pack everything in like, oh, we've got 20 minutes to do this. And I'm like, can we just not do this? You know? So she would do that. that was could be really annoying. I think the other thing that sometimes could be annoying about her was, that she would just get she could turn on a dime in terms of, like, anger sometimes.

Jarie** ((00:22:34)) - -  So if she was annoyed at me, she may just fester for a little bit and then just blow up like that. And I'm like, you know, like, what did I do?

Josh** ((00:22:44)) - -  Yeah.

Jarie** ((00:22:46)) - -  But I mean, you know, like everyone's got their quirks, right? So I think and again, what I tried to do in the book and, and what's beautiful about like writing a book about her and our relationship as well as getting people to read it. And I had, you know, family members read it in friends. I'm like, look, I want to capture her who she was. I don't want to sugarcoat that. She was Saint Jane or she had her problems just like everyone. But she's like when you read this there's two things I want people to get. Get away from one. I want you to literally like I know Jane like this human. I have a good idea who it was. And second, this is what it means to take your marriage vows in sickness and health till death do your part.

Jarie** ((00:23:28)) - -  That is the two main things, right? If I've done that, I've succeeded. And if I didn't put her quirks in and I didn't put like some of the like, she'd make words up. Like she'd call me like, you know, old balls. I'm like, come on, you're not a piece of meat.

Josh** ((00:23:46)) - -  Look up here, Jamie. Damn it!

Jarie** ((00:23:49)) - -  But she would say she'd make words up and she'd do these. I mean, just like, you know. But the beautiful thing is, you know, she'd get mad, like, you know, every relationship. She'd get mad, like, oh, you know, I'm sorry. You know, like, it was like a very beautiful thing. I mean, she she really taught me how to love unconditionally. And that's what I bring to my, you know, my relationship now with my fiancee.

Josh** ((00:24:11)) - -  So yeah, I think love is and we'll talk about the you can't say, hey, this is my new wife or.

Jarie** ((00:24:18)) - -  This.

Josh** ((00:24:18)) - -  Is my wife or fiancee, this is my wife, right? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. You have to learn a whole new set of vocabulary. but I think love is accepting the good and bad, and then, you know, you know, with with loss that I have, I go to my, you know, my dad passed away and I go today. I cheered my dad. My my friend and I were having coffee together and he lost his dad. I lost and we cheers and we go to our dads. They loved us in their own effed up way, right? Like they were effed up individuals. And they loved us in their own way. And I want to remember him for the good and bad and love him through that. So I think that's what you express clearly in your book, and I appreciate that, I value that, I think that's cool. I think that there's this stigma about talking shit about the dead or like or or just talking the bad stuff about it.

Josh** ((00:25:07)) - -  And that's almost a part of like this compartmentalizing or denial that I don't think is healthy. No.

Jarie** ((00:25:15)) - -  No, not at all. I mean, my my dad died in February of this year long battle with Alzheimer's and dementia. we didn't always get along. we didn't see eye to eye and a lot of things, you know. and later in life, we sort of reconciled. You know, he had his own thing, right? But having gone through the death of Jane and dealing with all that illness stuff, like I was very well prepared to understand the process and help my mom, who, you know, still alive but never really had to deal with any of this stuff. Like, she, my dad dealt with most of stuff, so. Yeah, I mean, and, you know. The I think it, I personally feel that it degrades their memory if you don't give them the full spectrum of who they were because my dad was. Would he he bicker with my mom all the time and I hated that.

Jarie** ((00:26:16)) - -  I'm like, come on, just stop bickering with her. But that was it. That was them. They're adults, right? He was irrational sometimes. And he he just, like, had his own idea and he just thought that. Why aren't you listening? I'm your father. Listen to me. And I'm like, you're wrong. I'm sorry. Like, fundamentally, I, you know, you know, but hey, he he, you know, there's three of us, three boys, you know, he raised three somewhat well-adjusted men that decent dudes. At least two out of the three. Right? We're not, you know, like, we're not serial killers or anything, but, you know, I can't say like he. But the other thing that was great about him is that he coached our sports teams. He was always there in his own way. That's how we showed you loved us. You know, I think I can count on one hand throughout our. You know, I'm 53 the entire life of my relationship with him.

Jarie** ((00:27:06)) - -  On one hand, how many times I said he was either proud of me or loved me. That's just not the way they did it back in the day. Doesn't mean I didn't know that. But that's like, you know, now. Like, my fiance has a daughter, so I'll be a stepfather soon. I'm like, I try like every day to say, I love you. I try every day to be like, I'm proud of you. Like I'm not. Not in a not in a way that's like, oh, over smothering. Right? But just like mean it, I mean it. And I know how important that was. And again, I knew it. But it's better when someone tells you, yeah. You know, like reinforce the fact that. Yeah, okay, you're on my side. All right. But I think you have to. You need to bear witness to their life, warts and all. Because no one's ever going to believe that who's ever died was a saint.

Jarie** ((00:27:59)) - -  No one's a saint. Like, literally. And you know what? If you can bust their balls a little bit, if you can have a little silly joke, you're not going to be mean. But they're like the human family. They're. They're fables and failures. Like one. I can list the amount of bullshit that I've done that I'm not proud of. Doesn't mean I'm bad. It just means I'm human. Yeah.

Josh** ((00:28:27)) - -  Man. Buddy. So I think it makes sense for us to talk about stepping into a new relationship. Right? Like, does that the does the thought of ever like, I know you guys had the talk before Jane died of like, hey, I want you to be happy and I want you to maybe find love. And you're like, no, I don't want, you know, like, right. But then now you've found love and you and you're finding happiness. Is there ever guilt attached to that? Or a shame?

Jarie** ((00:29:00)) - -  I would say at the beginning there was.

Jarie** ((00:29:02)) - -  Yeah. I mean, I met her name's Minerva. I met Minerva a couple of months after Jane died, like, pretty fast. A lot of people didn't. Well, people have opinions, and this is the thing, right? Like it's their opinion. It's not your life. Like you have to make the choices that are right for you. And so I think for about the first year, year and a half, there was a bit of guilt because I'm like, how could I find love again? How can I, like, move on? And again, I don't think you really move on through this. I think you just move through it and grow from it. And the thing that's, Well, I got lucky twice, right? because Minerva not only helped me through this significantly traumatic and stressful and grief filled time, but then the way she handled like the way she handled like Jane, right, was so thoughtful and loving and caring. that to this day, I'm just blown away about how how.

Jarie** ((00:30:11)) - -  Just how loving it was, I mean, it was funny. And I paraphrase this because I don't know if this is exactly what she said, but this is the story. I'm sticking to it. Yeah, I would talk about Jane a lot. I mean, she just died. Like I'm like, oh my God, you know, and I'm. And then one day I'm like, is this bother you? Does this bother you that I talk so much about her and that I loved her and everything? And she she just paused for a second and she said it would be really weird if you didn't love your dead wife. And we have our hearts. Hearts filled, you know, has plenty of room to love multiple people. I've clearly not at once, but, you know, like, you know, you know. But on the.

Josh** ((00:30:49)) - -  Next show, we're talking about polygamy. Polygamy, you know.

Jarie** ((00:30:54)) - -  But just I mean, even writing the book. Right? Like, could you imagine you're in a relationship with, like, a widower who's writing a book about the relationship with his now dead wife.

Jarie** ((00:31:07)) - -  And and she's she's read, read early drafts. She was very supportive. She said, this is just a beautiful tribute, like, you're going to help a lot of people. I'm proud of you. I think this is a great way to process your because it is. I write to make sense of the world. And I mean. yeah, that guilt, the whatever guilt I had, which I did have some and but Jane wanted me to be happy, like almost completely goes away when it's like this loving woman who's supportive, who is like, it would be weird if you didn't love your dead wife. I'm like, wow. Yeah, that's so beautiful.

Josh** ((00:31:44)) - -  It's let's be honest here. It's got to be awkward as hell for your fiance, right? You go to a party or someone starts talking about your book and, you know, like, so she's got to have some big kahuna to to be able to face with courage those kind of topics that, you know, could consistently come up because of the book that you did and all the podcast interviews that you do about that.

Josh** ((00:32:11)) - -  So cheers to her.

Jarie** ((00:32:13)) - -  Yeah.

Josh** ((00:32:13)) - -  Because she's a she's a champion to wow. Because grief doesn't just affect you. Death doesn't just affect you.

Jarie** ((00:32:20)) - -  Very good point. That's boom.

Josh** ((00:32:21)) - -  It's like an atomic bomb with the ripple waves that hit. The shockwaves hit first. And then you've got the whatever's that called the the the over whatever that that lingers for years, decades, lifetime. Maybe that affects.

Jarie** ((00:32:36)) - -  The chronic, the chronic, the acute versus chronic grief. Yeah.

Josh** ((00:32:40)) - -  So let me ask this question. If I asked her and she's not here with us right now, but if I ask what's her name?

Jarie** ((00:32:47)) - -  Minerva.

Josh** ((00:32:48)) - -  Minerva. Oh, so you got two really unique names. Minerva and Jari?

Jarie** ((00:32:52)) - -  Yeah. Goddess of defensive warfare. I mean, hey, that's awesome.

Josh** ((00:32:56)) - -  That's pretty badass.

Jarie** ((00:32:58)) - -  Yeah.

Josh** ((00:32:58)) - -  She's badass. Connecting with a jiu jitsu purple belt. There you go, man. War. All right, so what the heck was I going with this? All right, so if I were to ask her, what advice do you have for being with a dude who just had significant loss? Because she was there shortly after.

Josh** ((00:33:17)) - -  Like, what advice do you think she would give? Wow.

Jarie** ((00:33:22)) - -  That's it's actually a very astute question. One of the other reasons I wrote the book was so that people that love men can sort of understand the inside baseball of what's going on and at least one man's head, which which I've talked to a lot of widowers generally is consistent with how you feel. Right. Wow. I think what she would say. So she's very patient to a point. I think she would say be patient, yet treat them like the new love. hold space for the grief, but don't let the grief consume them. One of the things that just was, I mean, she helped me stop drinking, too. Which is just like the biggest gift ever. and because she was just she just listened and be thoughtful. And then then the other thing she would do is be like, can we stop talking about you and start like, why don't you ask me how my day was, you knucklehead? Like, because I was just consumed with the bullshit, right? And so being kind, considerate and compassionate, holding the space, but then also being like, hello? Ask me how I'm like, be in a relationship.

Jarie** ((00:34:46)) - -  Don't. And honestly, it's probably unique to her because I just, you know, it's just she's just an amazing human this way. Like when if you talk to her, not only is she has probably the most beautiful voice like you just. You're just immediately calm. Just, just. It's like, wow. Like you could read bedtime stories to people and they would fall asleep like that. Like she's just so calm, has a calming nature. But then also the. Look, buddy, stop your bullshit like you need to, like, I wouldn't call it tough love, because I think that's probably a bad word. But she's got a boundary and a limit, and when she hits the limit, she's like, stop getting in your damn head. And why don't you start interacting in a real relationship, which I had a problem with. And she helped me a lot, like figure that out. So I think a lot of I think a lot of what she would say is supportive, patient with boundaries and then call you out when you call me out on my bullshit.

Jarie** ((00:35:56)) - -  But any bullshit, any bullshit to call her out.

Josh** ((00:35:59)) - -  All right, Jerry, you've got to do your best impersonation of her in her voice, giving that voice to men as a voice, like an angel. Let's hear your voice. I mean.

Jarie** ((00:36:09)) - -  I'm not not joking like she says I have. She's very kind. She's like, well, I have a good voice too. Like I always tell people, I have a voice. I have a face made for radio, like, so, you know, on my best minute. Gosh. Okay, let me see if I can do this. So, honey, I think what you need to do today, is maybe go for a walk and think about. Do you really want to have another drink? I mean, I understand this is a hard time for you and I, and I love you and I'm supportive of you, but this drinking is not doing any of us any good. So maybe you should think about that today. I'll be here when you get back.

Josh** ((00:36:53)) - -  Not bad, not bad.

Jarie** ((00:36:55)) - -  Sorry, honey.

Josh** ((00:36:56)) - -  I want to see if she thinks that she. That's what you sound like, Minerva, I think. I think you sound great. You sound great. I closed my eyes.

Jarie** ((00:37:03)) - -  Well, I her voice is way better than mine. But. But you can you tell like.

Josh** ((00:37:09)) - -  Yeah.

Jarie** ((00:37:10)) - -  Supportive yet? Stop the bullshit. Right. And again, I wish I had as much depth and range of, like, tools and the toolbox to deal relationship. I'm learning. I learned a lot from her. So again lucky twice. It's crazy that way. But I think, you know, I. So before Jane, I was actually married before and got divorced. and, you know, I made a lot of mistakes in that relationship, and I, you know, I don't beat myself up a lot about it, but this was not equipped to be a good partner. Honestly, I did all the wrong things that so many people do. And I vowed to myself that, look, I'm going to learn from this and I'm going to try to do better.

Jarie** ((00:37:58)) - -  And thankfully, I've had partners that, you know, I'm definitely, hitting above my weight class.

Josh** ((00:38:10)) - -  Getting better, man.

Jarie** ((00:38:11)) - -  Every getting better, every with every, you know. Yeah. To say. but I'm lucky. I'm very lucky.

Josh** ((00:38:19)) - -  All right, so I got to go there. You have a marriage ends in divorce. You're like, oh, that's. You know, that sucked. It was tough. I did a bunch of things she did. But whatever the case may be. All right, I'm going to improve. You get married, then your wife dies right after that. What kind of conversations were you having? I don't know if you believe in God or whatever. Or would the universe or, like, what kind of what kind of conversations were you having, if, you know, to the universe or God?

Jarie** ((00:38:51)) - -  Yeah. Well, what I did do the day Jane died, I called up my old therapist that I had, and I got divorced from my first wife, Margaret, and I'm like, my wife died.

Jarie** ((00:39:09)) - -  I need to get in counseling now. I need someone to talk to because I don't know what to do. So I did therapy. I still do therapy to this day. The the kind of the. The first. So the the first. The first sort of things I was talking to the one. Right. Like there is no God bulshit. How can, how can, how can a benevolent God do this like this. You know, I, I had an upbringing as a I was Methodist then I was Episcopalian, and now I'm just agnostic slash atheist because I'm like, done, like, I'm sick of this shit. Like, what the hell? Like, this is bullshit. And it was funny because we even in the book, Jane was, more agnostic, atheist. And towards the end, we would pray together. She wanted to pray. She's like, well, anything will help. Not like, okay, well, we'll pray. There's a bunch of scenes in the book where we do that.

Jarie** ((00:40:11)) - -  yeah. So the questions I was asking myself, well, why me? Like, gosh, I can pick them, can't I? Like, geez, this is stupid. What the hell am I going to do with my life? How come I have to go through this? What good could ever come of this? You know, I mean, Jayne even said towards the end, I mean, and this pissed me off. This is the one thing that pissed me off the most. One of the things she's like, I wish we never met so that you don't have to deal with this. And I'm like, what? I'm like, are you out of your. Are you out of your mind? Because she is. She was from frustration, but also from love. Like she didn't want to see me suffer. But I'm like, that's the reason why the book's called Ride or Die. I'm like, babe, I'm rather die til the end, man. This is the way it is.

Jarie** ((00:40:55)) - -  Like, come on, you and and the thing is, she would do the exact same thing for me. No hesitation. 100%. Like if the role was reversed, she'd be on a podcast like this for, you know, unfiltered advice for women going through and be like the same the Josh equivalent, maybe the Josephine and the Jane. Right. Because we both got Cool Jane entry, right? So I yeah, I was upset. I was angry like, this is bullshit. Great. Divorced. And then a widower at 46. What the hell am I going to do with my life? I'm broken. Now, all I wanted to do was drink. I just wanted to numb the pain. I felt like, have you ever gone underneath the water in the ocean. And just. You open your eyes and stings. And it's just this pressure. I'm like. Is this it? Is this the. Is this it? It's like the rest of my life is going to be. Widower.

Jarie** ((00:42:02)) - -  Joffrey. Grief. Sorrow. Complete and utter chaos. Really? That was just pretty low. It was really low. I, I actually had what I think are like basically two nervous breakdowns within that year, partly because I was drinking so much. And that shit does not help, you know, full stop. Now, I'm not going to judge, like, look, you're going through the shit. I'm the last person to be like, oh, stop drinking. Like. Just know at some point you're going to need to reconcile. Why are you dealing with this with substances instead of dealing it with yourself, you know? And so I was pretty angry. I was pretty upset at the world. I was like. I wouldn't say I was suicidal was I'm not that kind of person. But I was really despondent. I'm like, right now, what? I mean, you know, I finally thought, okay, found someone. We wanted to have kids with family. We're a power couple.

Jarie** ((00:43:08)) - -  Like the whole nine, right? And then now I'm like, I got to start over. Oh, shit. Do I really? Oh, man. I should just be a hermit. Something like that was angry. It was really angry. and I did some, you know, I didn't handle it well. And, you know, I'm thankful for the people around me that that helped me through it. Even the ones that thought they could do more just to. There's the sense that someone's there. Like the sense that someone will care if you're not there. You know, like, I had a bunch of workout buddies. We would do endurance athletics and workout weight room and stuff, you know, knucklehead men stuff. There was some women there, too, but most of the knuckleheads. And I remember I'd get the text. Hey, why don't you hit the gym? What you sleeping in? Get your ass down here, or. Hey, going to the gym tomorrow. Are you going to be there or.

Jarie** ((00:44:05)) - -  Hey, let's have breakfast. You know, like, just normal shit, you know? I was I was pretty angry. How can you not be right?

Josh** ((00:44:17)) - -  How could you not be for sure?

Jarie** ((00:44:20)) - -  I think it's what you do with the anger. Yeah. That. That separates the wallow in your own pity party to being resilient and bouncing back and having this post grief, post-traumatic growth and becoming, you know, better human like. One of the reasons to write the book and and one of the reasons go on podcasts like yours is, you know, how do you build better men, you know, how do we as men own the narrative of our existence? And then how do we turn around this whole idea of toxic masculinity and all this bullshit that, like, really, we're going to be negative on everything, like the like the world is that screwed up? Look, we may have problems now in the world. This is, like, the best time in the world to be alive. You really want to be alive? A hundred years ago, 50 years ago, 20 years ago.

Jarie** ((00:45:12)) - -  Come on. Like, let's get out of our private pity party. Let's own the narrative. Let's build better men and let's make make a difference. Like, you know, I love this book. I don't know if you're a big reader of books. I love books I'm learning. Cool, cool. There's this great. There's this great book called legacy. Absolute must read for every man. I mean, every person human. But boy, is it a fantastic book. And it's about the All Blacks, the New Zealand rugby team, the national team, the All Blacks. It is one of the best books on leadership performance. I mean, they just capture it perfectly. How the All Blacks, who are the most winning team in the history of winning teams? They've been around for over 100 years. Best record born and then how they deal with culture, how they deal with supporting themselves, how they it's just fascinating book like just must read, full stop.

Josh** ((00:46:23)) - -  And it's by James Kerr and it's called legacy.

Josh** ((00:46:27)) - -  What the All Blacks can teach us about the business of life. Yes. And it's a book about rugby, not segregation, just to be all right. Correct.

Jarie** ((00:46:39)) - -  So even if you don't like rugby, you'll understand. Yeah. Thank you. Great job.

Josh** ((00:46:44)) - -  Jari, what a pleasure it is to, to speak with you. what's the name of your book where you guys go to get it?

Jarie** ((00:46:53)) - -  Yeah. So the book's called Ride or Die. It's actually. cool. Loving through tragedy, the husband's memoir. you can get it on Amazon. Bookshop.org. If you're into independent bookstores like I am, I love independent bookstores. coming soon, it'll be on audible as an audiobook. I literally finished doing the audio last month, and the edits are here to do all that stuff. But yeah, if you know someone that, going through a tough time, lost a spouse, lost a child, even a parent, and you want to understand, like what I went through from a grief perspective and from a male caregiver perspective, you know, a lot of us Gen X are now starting to have to take care of our parents, right? So this is a lot of that sort of stuff in there.

Jarie** ((00:47:43)) - -  It's also obviously doesn't end well. So it.

Josh** ((00:47:49)) - -  Spoiler alert.

Jarie** ((00:47:50)) - -  Spoiler alert doesn't end well. so there'll be ups and downs, you know? but it's, I feel, true testament to our relationship, how we dealt with it. I feel, let's say, a decent way to deal with that sort of stuff. Of course, you could always do better. But also, if, you know, if you're going through something like this, just. Man, you're not alone. Like, I know it feels like you're alone. I know it feels shitty. I know you don't want to reach out to people, but just, like, find just that one person or those two people or a friend and just the one that you could just hang out and jaw jack and bullshit. Even if it's stupid jokes that Josh does.

Josh** ((00:48:35)) - -  Good at that. You know, dumb jokes.

Jarie** ((00:48:37)) - -  Yeah. I mean. It's gonna help. Yeah, it's gonna help. And just, you know, you're not alone, man.

Jarie** ((00:48:47)) - -  Just. You're not just. You're not alone. You can get through it, too. It's. I have a below average attitude. I'm pretty. I'm generally biased, negative, and.

Josh** ((00:48:57)) - -  A face to radio.

Jarie** ((00:48:58)) - -  Yeah, and a face for radio, if I can get through it. Holy shit. Like I am? Pretty much. Yeah. yeah. Let's just leave it at that.

Josh** ((00:49:09)) - -  Yeah. So when it comes to bad jokes, you could either end us on a on a joke. You could tell us a joke, or you could recommend one of your favorite songs. And why? Your choice. Oh. Ooh.

Jarie** ((00:49:24)) - -  I'm not a big, like, set joke person because, I like sort of the antidote zipper, like, you know, like. Like what? Like, oh, I'll just pop it in my head like, I wish I had. I wish I had better set jokes. Yeah, I try to, I try to do, I just try to make my, my, my future stepdaughter.

Jarie** ((00:49:42)) - -  Like I just try to make her cringe because that's my job. Like to embarrass the kids.

Josh** ((00:49:46)) - -  That's your.

Jarie** ((00:49:47)) - -  Job. I mean, that's my job. Come on. Like, you know, it's like, you know, what's the difference between grandmothers and grandfathers? Grandmothers would be like, oh dear, such a beautiful picture. I love it so much. Oh my God, I'm so proud of you. Grandfather, pull my finger. Right. And that's our job, right? So there's that. And then I would say song wise, gosh, so many great songs. I think the one that I'm, depending on my mood and I mean, I'm a big Rage Against the Machine fan, so, like, killing in the name of, you know, bulls on parade. Every time I'm rolling jujitsu and I'm going against a guy that's bigger than me, which is not very often since I'm 225, I'm just in my mind going, bulls up. We're just bulls for beating the shit out of each other.

Jarie** ((00:50:34)) - -  Yeah. So I'd say that, yeah. so I got I did too. Sorry, I love I just.

Josh** ((00:50:39)) - -  Go on in the name of.

Jarie** ((00:50:40)) - -  Yeah, exactly. I mean.

Josh** ((00:50:42)) - -  Yeah, it's great if you.

Jarie** ((00:50:43)) - -  I saw them live. I saw them live. There is nothing that I've ever experienced. Live like them. The energy of this crowd is like, my gosh, this is like the most.

Josh** ((00:50:57)) - -  Wow. Yeah. And they're like 147 years old now. So like there's they're.

Jarie** ((00:51:02)) - -  They're like older than me.

Josh** ((00:51:03)) - -  That's gross.

Jarie** ((00:51:05)) - -  I know my gosh, these old guys. Yeah. It's retire already for you.

Josh** ((00:51:11)) - -  Yeah. You guys.

Josh** ((00:51:11)) - -  Man, you guys in the Red Hot Chili Peppers, man, I love you.

Jarie** ((00:51:14)) - -  Guys. Yeah. Same thing like. I mean, like, I saw an interview with Anthony Kiedis. He was on was on Rogan or something. Yeah. I'm looking at him going hold on. You're like 60. It's like, you know, you look at him and you compare them to Henry Rollins.

Jarie** ((00:51:28)) - -  Like Henry Rollins looks 60 or 65 or whatever. Like, okay, you've aged, you know, you're the singer for Black Flag. Like some serious stuff went down by Black Flag, bar none. Probably one of the best punk bands, but like, you had to earn that spot, you know? And you compare the two and you're like, I don't know, like Anthony Kiedis, you were a heroin addict. I know, I know, Henry Rollins wasn't a heroin addict. What's going on?

Josh** ((00:51:56)) - -  Kind of handsome, like. I mean.

Jarie** ((00:51:59)) - -  Yeah, he. Yeah, he's got a 25 year old girlfriend or whatever. So I'm like, well, okay. Well, anyway. Yeah, yeah.

Josh** ((00:52:05)) - -  On that note, go check out his book. Ride or Die. You can find it on Amazon or that independent bookstore that he mentioned. but guys, as always, reach out to our guests and say thanks for being on the show. Their contact information will be in the squiggly things below.

Josh** ((00:52:22)) - -  I love you guys. And, we do these interviews to bring you guys tools and resources, so use them. And then, if you guys have something that you'd like to share with other guys, head on over to Uncensored Advice for men.com. Fill out a quick form, maybe get you on the show next. I'll love you guys. We'll talk to you all on the next episode. Peace.