When Everything Feels Heavy: Symptoms and Diagnoses of Depression

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Welcome and Content Warning

 

[00:00:24] Brittney Baxter Dameron: welcome to today's episode. This time we're talking about major depressive disorder.

Its symptoms, how it physically and emotionally feels overlaps between depression and generalized anxiety disorder and what you can do to manage symptoms of depression. Trigger warning, we do talk a lot about suicide. Ideation

[00:00:42] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:00:43] Brittney Baxter Dameron: goes with the territory.

 This way in to symptoms of depression.

Man. Wow. Uh, so depression is not a fun topic. It's really not. It's depressing.[00:01:00]

[00:01:02] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah,

[00:01:02] Brittney Baxter Dameron: else can I say?

[00:01:03] Amy Lotsberg: yeah. No, and

[00:01:07] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:01:07] Why Depression Defies Logic

[00:01:07] Amy Lotsberg: don't wanna make light of it, but at the same time, it's okay to look on the bright side, I should say. Although that somebody with depression isn't gonna wanna hear that or do

[00:01:17] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah, exactly. It's, it's very, um, superficial. Oh, just look at the bright side. Count your blessings,

[00:01:24] Amy Lotsberg: Right.

[00:01:25] Brittney Baxter Dameron: logically, that's a good thing to do and be, you know, grateful for what you do have and that kinda stuff. That's all good stuff. That's all logical and it, CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, that's, that's the main point.

You know, focus on what are, what your thoughts are. If you change your thoughts, you're gonna change how you feel. Well, that's not always true. It helps, but it's not always true because depression isn't logical. It's not coming from your logical part of self. It's coming from your stress response, specifically the shut down branch of the stress response.

Depression isn't mobilization, like fight and [00:02:00] flight branches are, it's immobilization.

[00:02:02] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:04] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So a lot of depression is really just your body not wanting to cooperate in so many ways. Like, it's hard to get outta bed, it's hard to move, it's hard to want to eat, it's hard to want to do anything. There's no motivation.

 I could go on, but your body's just in a state of shutdown essentially. So with that being said, I'm gonna get back to symptoms. I'll get into that a little bit more deeply. But with depression, this is really hard because you want to be doing things, you want to feel better, but it's just like, I just can't pull myself into doing something else.

Have you ever had experience like that or known anyone who's, who's struggled with that?

[00:02:46] Personal Experiences and Prevalence

[00:02:46] Amy Lotsberg: I have, I don't believe I've ever been like clinically depressed, but I have certainly had times in my life where I was like, I don't feel like doing anything. And it's, and I know that one of the [00:03:00] things to look for is things that you used to enjoy, you don't enjoy anymore.

[00:03:04] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:03:04] Amy Lotsberg: I, I have definitely had periods of that, but it's always been because of something like a breakup or something like that.

[00:03:13] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:03:14] Amy Lotsberg: I feel like it's just a reaction to that rather than a full on depression.

[00:03:19] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:03:21] Amy Lotsberg: uh, for myself, I do know that I've had friends who have been diagnosed with depression and on medication for depression, so

[00:03:28] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:03:29] Amy Lotsberg: have seen that in others that I'm around for sure.

Sure,

[00:03:32] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah, and I think it's really hard for anyone to say like, oh, I don't know anyone who's had depression. I think we all know someone who's had depression, at least one point in their life.

[00:03:41] Amy Lotsberg: sure

[00:03:43] Brittney Baxter Dameron: The statistics are pretty obvious, at least one in five us, uh, citizens or people who live in the us. You don't have to be a citizen to have depression obviously.

So one in five people who live in the US has been diagnosable for depression at least once in their life. I think that statistic is low,

[00:03:59] Amy Lotsberg: [00:04:00] Really.

[00:04:01] Brittney Baxter Dameron: really, because a lot of people don't know what the full blown symptoms of depression are. They, they think they're just in a lull or a low point or whatever, and it's actually depression.

And I'm not trying to be like, oh, you should be diagnosed with depression. No, because that diagnosis sticks with you as pretty much every diagnosis does.

[00:04:19] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:20] Brittney Baxter Dameron: don't have to be formally diagnosed with depression to know that you have it or have had it. So to your point, Amy, I mean, everything that you've experienced has had a definitive trigger for feeling depressed, and, and that's, uh, a good observation.

[00:04:36] Roots in Trauma and Attachment

[00:04:36] Brittney Baxter Dameron: To me, depression isn't, oh, you're born with a chemical imbalance in your brain. That's not it. That is pharmacology. Propaganda.

[00:04:44] Amy Lotsberg: Really.

[00:04:45] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. Yes,

[00:04:47] Amy Lotsberg: to know.

[00:04:48] Brittney Baxter Dameron: it is. Because there's so many things in life that contribute to our, shutdown stress response being on a lot of the time, if we're. Born [00:05:00] with depression, it's because something happened when, we were, in utero and it wasn't good.

[00:05:06] Amy Lotsberg: Mm.

[00:05:07] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Someone's birth could have been traumatic, it could have been horrendous, so on and so forth. So these early traumatic experiences that we don't give credit to, most people don't give credit to contribute to symptoms of depression

[00:05:20] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:21] Brittney Baxter Dameron: and anxiety. And P-T-S-D-I could go on. So we have all these experiences that we may not even realize or remember that we went through.

Plus the way we grew up, the way our parents treated us, what was going on in our family of origin. A lot of these things, if we're not, being treated with love and respect, even as a little baby, we get depressed. We all innately know that we are supposed to be loved and we know how it feels innately, even as little babies.

I think little babies know it more than the rest of us really.

[00:05:54] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:05:55] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And so if we're not getting our needs met or physical needs or emotional needs or [00:06:00] attachment needs, if we're not getting our needs met, if our parents have avoidant attachment or disorganized attachment, ambivalent attachment, we're not, we're not getting the things that we need to have, decent mental health.

So there's so many things we need to have. For us to have good mental health, and there's so many things we need to not happen for us to have good mental health too. And so there's so many little things that happen in life, especially earlier on in life that we have no recollection, explicit recollection for, but our bodies are emotions.

No, what's up?

[00:06:36] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:37] Brittney Baxter Dameron: I've known people who were depressed their whole lives because they had shitty childhoods, because they had sexual abuse from a babysitter when they were two years old, There's so many horrible, and not even horrible experiences we go through that contribute to symptoms of depression.

Did you know anyone who's been depressed their whole lives?

[00:06:57] Amy Lotsberg: I'm thinking of somebody who, to me [00:07:00] seems like she always was.

[00:07:02] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:03] Amy Lotsberg: Um, she had a lot of mental health issues and was on a bunch of meds for them.

[00:07:09] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Sure.

[00:07:10] Amy Lotsberg: I don't know if she was, I wanna say maybe borderline, but I know she was, she, she was, I think, manic depressive because she did have those wild swings.

[00:07:22] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:07:23] Amy Lotsberg: and I didn't know her her whole life, but I

[00:07:26] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:07:26] Amy Lotsberg: for a good 15 years recently.

[00:07:31] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah,

[00:07:31] Amy Lotsberg: and that I would, I, when you say that she's the first person that popped into my head.

[00:07:36] Brittney Baxter Dameron: sure.

[00:07:37] Amy Lotsberg: And everything is a drama. Everything is dramatic. Everything is earth shattering. Everything is going to ruin my life

[00:07:48] Brittney Baxter Dameron: mm

[00:07:48] Amy Lotsberg: when everything from my perspective that has unquote ruined her life manufactured by her.

[00:07:57] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah, that happens.

[00:07:59] Amy Lotsberg: So, [00:08:00] um, I'm like, well, only if you had, if you had paid your rent, wouldn't be evicted

[00:08:05] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:08:06] Amy Lotsberg: could pay your rent if you hadn't fucked up at work and lost every job you've ever had. And

[00:08:10] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Uhhuh.

[00:08:10] Amy Lotsberg: you know, I, I look at it like that. I don't say that to her, of course, never have

[00:08:14] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:08:14] Amy Lotsberg: all up in here.

[00:08:16] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah,

[00:08:16] Amy Lotsberg: um, yeah, I would say that she probably, among the other things that were going on with her, probably, probably at underlying depression,

[00:08:25] Brittney Baxter Dameron: yeah, yeah. I, I think that dramatic more comes from the borderline than the depression. Depression's not very dramatic

[00:08:33] Amy Lotsberg: mm.

[00:08:34] Brittney Baxter Dameron: until it gets to be really severe. And I'll, get into that. So we can have symptoms of depression and symptoms of anxiety and symptoms of a personality disorder, symptoms of PTSD. Uh, we can have them all, we're diagnosable for many things all at the same time.

[00:08:49] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:51] Depression Anxiety Overlap

[00:08:51] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So there's going to be a lot of overlaps and there's a lot of overlaps between depression and anxiety. And I know we covered anxiety last time, so I just wanna speak to the [00:09:00] overlaps here and then really get into the symptoms of depression.

[00:09:03] Amy Lotsberg: Okay.

[00:09:04] Brittney Baxter Dameron: some of the overlaps is really what's going on with our bodies.

We can be physically tense on edge with depression and anxiety. Even though depression's from the shutdown branch of the stress response, there's still some part of us that's like, but we can't just play dead. We still have to be ready somehow because I still have bills to pay. You know? So depression, anxiety really do go hand in hand if someone has depression.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're also diagnosable for anxiety and vice versa because of these overlaps with anxiety. There's motivation to run away to complete things, but there's also a lack of motivation. Like, oh, I really don't wanna do this with depression. There's a lack of motivation. Yeah, I really don't wanna do this.

It feels and sounds and looks different, but it's the same symptom with anxiety. You could be super [00:10:00] hungry and you could eat a lot. Same way with depression. You can just be like, oh, I'm just trying to, you know, not feel so empty. So I'm filling my full, feeling, my stomach, so I just don't feel so empty. But anxiety is like, oh, I just gotta eat because I'm super anxious.

[00:10:12] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:12] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Or vice versa. For vice versa. Oh, I can't eat because I'm so anxious. Oh, I just don't wanna eat. I don't have an appetite. So. Again, it looks, feels, acts differently. Same symptom though. Um, sometimes there's also that irritability piece. Irritability is definitely a symptom of anxiety. Like you're a little more at edge, you're a little more snippy, snappy, ah, but with depression, um, it's, especially for guys, this comes out in guys more than women for sure.

It's, you're, look, this fucking sucks. This is fucking stupid. And I, and I hate this and this is dumb, and I can't believe this is happening. So that's irritable in a different way.

[00:10:54] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:56] Gender Differences and Control

[00:10:56] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And so for the symptoms of depression, I, they're all the same [00:11:00] if it, you know, across gender spectrum, whatever. But it presents differently for, you know, cisgender males versus cisgender females.

Um, again, guys just, they tend to look more angry, irritable, pissed off. Everything sucks. And that's not ne necessarily how women tend to present with depression. It's like, oh yeah, this sucks. This is terrible. Uh, without the aggression behind it.

[00:11:33] Amy Lotsberg: Do you think that's a control thing? Like, I don't know if control's the right word, but I think of like in society in general, in our patriarchal society, men are supposed to be the ones in control, making sure everything's right, making sure everything makes sense, and the woman sits back at home oh, that's boring. So do you think that has anything to do with like the way that men are [00:12:00] trained to act in a situation

[00:12:02] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:12:03] Amy Lotsberg: way that women are?

[00:12:04] Brittney Baxter Dameron: In a lot of ways. Absolutely. Yep. Remember in our, our society especially, but not just ours, a lot of cultures have this as well, where, you know, men could be angry and they could be macho and blah, blah, blah. And that's the only emotion they could show. If they're gonna have emotions, you could be angry, but that's it.

And for women, you can have any emotion because you're a woman, just can't be angry 'cause then you're a bitch.

[00:12:26] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:27] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So it's, it's how we're socialized for sure. Uh, how we're supposed to manage our emotions or whatever. And so dudes really do get pigeonholed into, if you're gonna show emotions, it's gonna be this.

You don't have emotions unless it's this or you don't have emotions. Purity, even though I'm pissed off, that's not an emotion. You know what I mean? Yeah. So. A lot of it is about control as well, because with depression it feels like you don't have any control over anything, [00:13:00] and that's a really tough position to be in.

Man and woman, non-binary doesn't matter. It's a tough position for anyone to be in. And so again, typical gender presentation, women tend to be more like, oh, I'm sad about it. And men are more like, oh, I'm pissed off about it. So that's another overlap with anxiety and depression is while you have the the shutdown response, there's also the fight and flight response in there too, because some part of us parts part know that we have to keep functioning somehow,

[00:13:34] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:35] Brittney Baxter Dameron: and that's what makes depression so hard if you don't have anyone to help you, if you don't have a partner, if you don't have family, if you don't have friends, if you don't have anyone to help you and you just roll over because I'm so depressed, you're not paying your bills.

You are gonna get evicted, eventually you're gonna get out on the street because you have nowhere else to go. And so depression gets to be really insidious with that.

[00:13:53] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:54] Clinical Symptoms Checklist

[00:13:54] Brittney Baxter Dameron: One of the main hallmarks of depression is lack of motivation.

[00:13:58] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:59] Brittney Baxter Dameron: You don't [00:14:00] have to necessarily be, have to be down, sad, depressed. If you have the lack of motivation without feeling down, said depressed, you can still be diagnosed with depression.

[00:14:10] Amy Lotsberg: Okay.

[00:14:12] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So the main symptom, feeling down said, depressed, blah, whatever. Of course, that you have to experience this for at least two weeks at a time to be, uh, diagnosed with major depressive disorder at least two weeks at a time of feeling downside, blah or unmotivated. And this isn't just like, oh, I don't feel like doing it today.

This is two weeks at a time. I don't feel like doing jack shit

[00:14:37] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:37] Brittney Baxter Dameron: am struggling to even get my body to move.

[00:14:40] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:41] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So in addition to either, uh, feeling down, sad blah or lack of motivation or both, they usually are both, but one or the other. In addition to that, you also have to be feeling like your appetite's outta whack.

You're eating too much, you're not eating enough. You're never feeling full or satisfied, um, never feeling hungry, so on and [00:15:00] so forth. Your sleep is also outta whack. You're sleeping too much. You're not sleeping enough. You're an insomniac. You can't get outta bed, you can't wake yourself up. You're never feeling rested, so on and so forth.

Uh, you could be irritable. You don't have to be irritable. You could also feel like you're worthless or you're a failure. You're letting yourself, your family, the whole world down somehow some sort of negative cognition in here.

[00:15:22] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:23] Brittney Baxter Dameron: I'm a piece of shit. I'm never gonna amount to anything. I might as well just go roll over and die because nothing's gonna get better, so on and so forth.

It's these negative cognitions are rampant with depression. Um, you could also have suicidal thoughts. You could have suicidal attempts if things are bad enough. So with that being said, the overlaps again, with generalized anxiety disorder is how your body feels. When you're depressed, you're feeling maybe not super tense, you know, on edge like anxiety, but you sure can be.

With anxiety, you're more amped up because [00:16:00] the flight response. But even with the, the shutdown response with depression, uh, you could still have that, that tension.

[00:16:09] Amy Lotsberg: Okay.

[00:16:10] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. Uh, I'm trying to think what else overlap. A lot of negative cognitions are an overlap. Even if you have generalized anxiety disorder, like it could be the same negative cognitions.

Well, I'm never gonna amount anything. Well, I'm never gonna amount to anything.

[00:16:25] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:27] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:16:28] Suicide and Misconceptions

[00:16:28] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So when symptoms of depression get bad enough, there get to be severe, people can end up, you know, killing themselves, killing other people. Um, they could have psychosis, which is, uh, delusions and hallucinations, and it could be really bad.

The usually the worst that happens if people have really bad symptoms of depression is they, they take their own lives.

[00:16:52] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:54] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Um, so with that being said, if I'm going to speak [00:17:00] about suicide, I have to mention murder suicide. And so a lot of the time people paint dudes and it's usually dudes, guys, the vast majority, I dunno, 98% of murder suicides, my statistic could be off, but it's, it's up there.

I'll have to look into this a little bit more just to give it an accurate, uh, statistic. But the vast majority of murder suicides are perpetuated by. And oh, you know, he was depressed. It was a a crime of passion, blah, blah, blah. That's not depression. That is about power and control. If you hear of a woman being murdered, it is usually by a guy, and it is usually by someone she's currently or formerly intimate with,

[00:17:43] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:44] Brittney Baxter Dameron: that is not depression.

That is about power and control. People who are depressed will more likely hurt themselves than anyone else.

[00:17:55] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:57] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And one more shocking [00:18:00] statistic. Eight of the murder-suicides were perpetrated by family annihilators, all of whom were male. Seven of these incidents involved intimate partners. Seven of these eight family annihilator incidences involved intimate partners

So I just wanna make that very clear. If it's murder, suicide, it's not about depression, it's about power and control.

[00:18:24] Amy Lotsberg: Okay.

[00:18:25] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Okay. All right.

[00:18:26] How Depression Feels Physically

[00:18:26] Brittney Baxter Dameron: I'll get off my soapbox.

So, uh, if you have depression, how does it feel? You, you probably know how it feels if you had depression. The first thing I could say is your body just does not want to move, and if your body's moving, it's not moving as efficiently or quickly or, or whatever as it normally is.

It might even feel like you're just like walking through molasses. It just takes so much more effort just to get your body to move.

[00:18:50] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:51] Brittney Baxter Dameron: just takes so much more physical, mental, emotional effort just to move. And if you're going about your [00:19:00] day and you're like, okay, well I have this meeting at three, uh, gosh, I'm just not prepared.

It is, everything just is harder than it should be.

[00:19:08] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:10] Brittney Baxter Dameron: It just feels more daunting. You're, you're walking uphill, you're pushing a rock uphill constantly. Um, so it just physically feels you have no energy. And that's another symptom too. It just feeling fatigued, having no real energy, just you, you can't get enough energy to, to save your life.

Uh, another way it physically feels is you could have like a constant like, um, pit in your chest or your stomach, like, like your, your abdomen's caving in. Uh, it could feel like your body's physically heavy, like gravity is just pushing on you harder. Um, just the stomach upset all the time. 'cause you're either always hungry or never having an appetite.

And when you eat, it just doesn't taste right. It doesn't feel right in your stomach.

[00:19:57] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:58] Brittney Baxter Dameron: your, your whole digestion [00:20:00] could be out of whack too. Like, um, you get constipated, you can start getting diarrhea, stuff like that. Like your body just isn't happy at all, period. When you're trying to sleep. You might be just laying there, like your eyes are just wide awake and they won't shut, or, or when conversely, when you're trying to wake up, your eyes just won't open.

Uh, it's, it's a real crapshoot.

[00:20:22] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:20:24] Brittney Baxter Dameron: It's, it's tough. S

[00:20:25] Dark Thoughts and Self Talk

[00:20:25] Brittney Baxter Dameron: o in addition to your body, just not wanting to move and operate the way you think is also really skewed because parts of self are parked in the driver's seat, you know, parts of self that have all of these symptoms of depression. Not every part of you is saddled with these symptoms of depression, but the parts of you are, they're way up in the driver's seat and they've, they've kind of taken over the bus.

And so sometimes your thoughts can get dark. Uh, for example, there's a lot of atrocities in the world and there have been for a [00:21:00] long time. So, uh, an an example of, you know, someone in, let's, let's say Africa. 'cause there's so much, uh, horrendous stuff going on there,

 And so thinking about that, it's like, oh, the, the women who decided to kill themselves rather than deal with that horrendous, uh, abuse and whatnot, like, yeah, good for them. Good choice. That's kind of how people start thinking like, yeah, I can't blame them.

I'd rather off myself too. And so if you don't have depression, you'd be like, oh, that's horrible. I hope they get help and I hope this thing stops. And they're like, oh, yeah, I can't blame 'em. They, they're off themselves. Out. Yep. Mm-hmm. Do you hear the difference?

[00:21:36] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:21:37] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. Yeah. And so the way our, our thought patterns are when we're depressed are, they're a little skewed too, especially when it comes to ourselves like, yeah, I'm a terrible person.

No one loves me. And, and people are right to not like me, and I'm never gonna have friends because I'm a terrible person. So our self-talk is not good.

[00:21:58] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.[00:22:00]

[00:22:01] Brittney Baxter Dameron: There's a lot of little things that people experience kind of uniquely, and I'm not gonna get into all of those little things, but our inner, um, personality with our parts of self and how, uh, our parts of self play together and all of that stuff, that, that really gets thrown off.

And so that can really just throw people out of whack altogether. So it's tough to deal with, especially when the body is not cooperating, when your thoughts aren't cooperating. Um, nothing seems right. Nothing sounds good. Uh, it's hard to live really. And a lot of the time if people think they have depression, they probably do.

They're not wrong. Whereas people are like, oh, I might have a personality disorder. No, I don't think you do. Oh, I have a DH adhd. Yeah. You don't meet the clinical criteria. Oh, I have depression. You probably do.

[00:22:55] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:22:55] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:22:57] Anhedonia and Grief vs Depression

[00:22:57] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Uh, one [00:23:00] major symptom of depression that I forgot to mention is never feeling joy, never getting really in enjoyment, pleasure, interest. Like, the things that normally you're interested in, you're not interested in anymore. Normally, the things that you get enjoyment from, you're not enjoying it anymore.

Stuff that you know that you love just you don't love. So depression, this is a really hard symptom to deal with too because logically you know you should be liking this, but you just can't muster up the feeling for it

So a lot of the times people are like, oh, I'm so depressed about this. Like you can be really sad about something, but it's not depression.

Major depressive disorder again is at least two weeks at a time of experiencing these symptoms together. You can be momentarily depressed. It's not major depressive disorder.

[00:23:57] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:58] Brittney Baxter Dameron: You can be sad for several days. It's [00:24:00] not major depressive disorder. And the other thing I'm really gonna speak to is grief and depression are not the same thing, but they feel the same.

[00:24:09] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:11] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And honestly, this is my personal opinion. I think that that depression is a form of grief in a lot of ways.

[00:24:19] Amy Lotsberg: Okay.

[00:24:20] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So I'm gonna get into this a little bit. The, the five stages of grief. And I hate the, the word stages 'cause it implies we work through it and we're done. We're never done with grief. Grief never goes away.

So the five states of grief, we have anger, depression, bargaining, uh, denial and acceptance.

[00:24:38] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:39] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So depression is a state of grief to me. Grief, depression, they're, they're kind of interchangeable. They're not necessarily the same thing, but it feels similar. And they can be interchangeable because let's say my mom, well my mom did die.

So I'm still sad about it. I'll always be sad about it if I let myself think about it. I am going start crying. I'm gonna be sad [00:25:00] after she died. I, I was really sad. I was, I was likely, uh, diagnosable for depression.

[00:25:06] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:06] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Um, shit happens, you know, we're going to go through these things. And even though I was diagnosable likely for depression during that time, I know it was grief.

[00:25:17] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:19] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Grief is an emotion that we'd never really get rid of because what triggers that grief is unresolvable.

[00:25:26] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:25:28] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Like, nothing's gonna bring my mom back. Nothing's gonna bring your dad back. We're always gonna be sad about not having them.

[00:25:33] Amy Lotsberg: Right.

[00:25:35] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And it doesn't matter how long we've not had our parents in our lives, we're always gonna be sad about it. We're gonna be on our deathbed and be like, oh, I'm, I miss my mom. I can't wait to see her.

Yeah, I know you're feeling it. I'm sorry, Amy.

[00:25:47] Amy Lotsberg: That's okay.

[00:25:48] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah, so just even thinking about it, we're getting sad. Our, our bodies are like getting into the shutdown stress response, right?

[00:25:56] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah,

[00:25:56] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. Yeah. And if our bodies are in this [00:26:00] too long, are we gonna wanna eat? Are we gonna wanna do anything? No. I, I just wanna fucking lay down in bed all day long and let myself feel my feels

[00:26:07] Amy Lotsberg: yeah,

[00:26:09] Brittney Baxter Dameron: so to me, again, depression, anxiety aren't the same, but it feels the same.

[00:26:14] Amy Lotsberg: yeah.

[00:26:14] Brittney Baxter Dameron: looks the same in a lot of ways. And the defining factor between depression and, and grief is what triggered the depression or the grief. Again, grief is an emotion that's not resolvable because what triggered it is never gonna change. What triggered the depression can change. That's to me, the defining factor.

[00:26:40] Amy Lotsberg: Okay. That makes sense.

[00:26:42] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:26:43] Treatment Beyond Medication

[00:26:43] Brittney Baxter Dameron: If we're depressed, there's a lot of things we can do to help ourselves. And a lot of people are like, yep. Medication. Yeah. A lot of antidepressants out there for a reason. If you need an antidepressant, antidepressant, I'm not going to, you know, poo pooh that

[00:26:57] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:57] Brittney Baxter Dameron: you go talk to your psychiatrist, your doctor, whatever.[00:27:00]

However, there's a lot of things that are not medication. Um, uh, what am I trying to say? They're not medications. There's, there are things that you can do without meds. Thank that was wordy.

[00:27:16] Amy Lotsberg: I know what you mean.

[00:27:18] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Okay.

[00:27:19] Activate Your Body

[00:27:19] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah, so we wanna get our bodies activated. Depression is the shutdown response. So if we can get our bodies moving somehow with something we want to be doing, even if we don't feel like it, if we logically know it's something that we normally like, if we can get into it, if we can do some dancing, some golfing, some walking outside in nature it, it doesn't matter if your body normally likes to do something, get your body moving in that thing that you like, it may not be the remedy.

It may only temporarily help. Temporarily. Temporarily. Helping is okay though. Even if you know [00:28:00] it's just gonna be this five minutes, it's okay. Hey, it's the five minutes of reprieve from your shutdown.

[00:28:04] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:28:06] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So if you can get your body activated, that is one of the best things to counteract the immobilization that comes with the shutdown response.

[00:28:15] Amy Lotsberg: Okay.

[00:28:16] Nature As Medicine

[00:28:16] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So I'm just curious, Amy, what sort of stuff do you actually like to be doing Physically?

[00:28:22] Amy Lotsberg: Not much. I'm pretty sedentary. Um, I like, I like walking around outside with the dogs and in nature and saying hi to my tree and, you know, playing with, not playing with, but, um, watching the squirrels play and, you know, things like that, that that's, that's something I can do at home. Basically. Just walk out my back door.

[00:28:45] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:28:46] Amy Lotsberg: And, um, it's not necessarily a physical, it's more mental or emotional, but it, I do have to get my ass out there.

[00:28:55] Brittney Baxter Dameron: That's right. Yep. Just being in nature is [00:29:00] one of the best things you can do. Nature is so amazing in how it supports us in so many different ways. Not just physically, but mentally, emotionally, relationally. I could go on. Nature is really there to support us, and I don't need to get on a soapbox. I hate how we don't support nature, but it's there to support us.

[00:29:18] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:29:19] Brittney Baxter Dameron: It, yeah.

[00:29:19] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah. I never used to be a nature person. I thought I didn't like nature. 'cause my

[00:29:22] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Wow.

[00:29:23] Amy Lotsberg: like nature. She's a, she's an indoor cat

[00:29:26] Brittney Baxter Dameron: I gotcha.

[00:29:26] Amy Lotsberg: and, uh, she doesn't even like looking out the window.

[00:29:29] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Oh,

[00:29:29] Amy Lotsberg: And so I kinda grew up with that, you know,

[00:29:31] Brittney Baxter Dameron: mm-hmm.

[00:29:32] Amy Lotsberg: once I started really getting out there and being like, oh my God, this is so gorgeous.

And I,

[00:29:39] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:29:39] Amy Lotsberg: to camp when I was a kid. I didn't like it.

[00:29:41] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Oh,

[00:29:42] Amy Lotsberg: uh, but now I, I have a, I have a renewed for all the critters and flora fauna around me.

[00:29:53] Brittney Baxter Dameron: mm-hmm.

[00:29:54] Amy Lotsberg: it really is amazing when you think about it. I downloaded that bird app and now I go out in the [00:30:00] morning and see what birds are in my yard.

[00:30:02] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Oh, I love that.

[00:30:03] Amy Lotsberg: uh, it's, it's great. I'm like,

[00:30:05] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:30:05] Amy Lotsberg: I got another cardinal or whatever.

[00:30:08] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:08] Amy Lotsberg: a ton of cardinals, but know, it's exciting when you get a new bird, even if I

[00:30:12] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yes.

[00:30:13] Amy Lotsberg: the app heard it, so I assume it's there somewhere. I didn't

[00:30:16] Brittney Baxter Dameron: I love it.

[00:30:17] Amy Lotsberg: I counted anyway.

[00:30:19] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Wow. Oh, that's cool. It's almost like catching Pokemon.

[00:30:23] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:24] Brittney Baxter Dameron: I love that. That's great. Yeah. I mean, it is.

[00:30:29] Senses And Small Wins

[00:30:29] Brittney Baxter Dameron: It's stuff, simple stuff like that, that really helps to, IM not immobilize to mobilize our bodies again.

[00:30:35] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:30:36] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah, you don't have to like take three hour nature walks in the middle of nowhere. That's, that's not what I'm saying.

It's just go outside.

[00:30:44] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:45] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Go outside. Touch grass. Yeah. Listen to the birds. Watch the curls. Use your senses.

[00:30:49] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:30:50] Brittney Baxter Dameron: you smell the freshly cut lawn? Well, it's not yet, but hopefully next month or so we'll have some lawns being,

[00:30:56] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah,

[00:30:57] Brittney Baxter Dameron: mowed. Uh, so [00:31:00] yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:01] Amy Lotsberg: you know Spring is really here.

[00:31:02] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yes, exactly.

[00:31:04] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:31:05] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So smell the smells. Hear what? You hear all the birds.

Uh, what do you see? What are you, ta, anything in the air? Hopefully not. Uh, um, but yeah. What, what can you tell? What can you touch? Get your bare feet in the grass. That's, that's helpful. Touch some flowers. I mean, really experience it with your senses.

[00:31:24] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:26] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And if you're really depressed and you go outside and you have to force yourself and you're like, okay, I'm here in nature and I see the sun, I, I, I, I hear the birds like, yep, okay, well hey, at least you tried.

[00:31:36] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:37] Brittney Baxter Dameron: at least something in that. There's a little bit of magic there. At least you can say, Hey, I got outside today. And even if it's like, man, that's so superficial. That's makes no sense. Be okay. I went outside today. Hey, that's okay. You don't have to believe that it was good for it to do something [00:32:00] for you.

It you went outside. That's an accomplishment.

[00:32:04] Amy Lotsberg: And your body still knows you went outside, even if your brain doesn't think it was any good.

[00:32:07] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah, that's right. Exactly. Yes. And so that's one of the best things I, I could say to anyone who has any symptom of depression, even if it's not major depressive disorder, if you're feeling down, go outside. It'll help.

[00:32:23] Music For Connection

[00:32:23] Brittney Baxter Dameron: The next best thing I could say is listen to some music that you really like. I don't care if it's depressing or uplifting or whatever.

Sometimes if we wallow in this and we hear music that says, we're not the only one who feels this way,

[00:32:35] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:37] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Uh, so I'm not gonna lie, I love Alice in Chains, love Alice in Chains, but some of their songs are so fucking sad.

[00:32:45] Amy Lotsberg: Oh, really?

[00:32:46] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. Oh man. Um, have you listened to them at all? Do you like them?

[00:32:51] Amy Lotsberg: Not on, not like, on purpose. Like I heard 'em on the radio. I, I know who they are, but I don't know. I, I don't think I could pick, pull a song outta my ass of theirs.[00:33:00]

[00:33:00] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Oh, okay. Yeah. One of their songs down in a hole is one of their most depressing songs. But

[00:33:07] Amy Lotsberg: like it.

[00:33:08] Brittney Baxter Dameron: it, it is. But if I'm feeling really down, like I'm gonna put that on because someone else feels the same way.

[00:33:14] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:15] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. So sometimes if other people are like, oh man, he's depressed and he is listening to the super depressing music, that's not good. Like, don't judge that.

[00:33:24] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:33:24] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Don't judge that they're, they're listening to exactly what they, their soul needs in the moment, really. And sometimes if we just know that someone else is there with us, even if they've been there before and not there right now, that's good enough.

[00:33:39] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:33:40] Brittney Baxter Dameron: one of the worst things of depression is feeling isolated, socially isolated. And that's not necessarily an official symptom of social isolation, but you just don't have the motivation to talk to people. You don't wanna go see people, you don't wanna leave the house to do things like it's. It is very isolating.

It is. It's lonely.[00:34:00]

[00:34:00] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:01] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And so again, listening to other music, Allison Chains, it doesn't matter. Uh, it's good to know that someone else feels that way too.

[00:34:09] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:09] Brittney Baxter Dameron: not alone.

[00:34:10] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:12] Loneliness And Suicide Risk

[00:34:12] Brittney Baxter Dameron: That's one of the main reasons that people do end up committing suicide or taking their own lives, is, um, that loneliness. They don't think anyone understands or anyone knows, or anyone's going to be able to, to have that empathy.

They just, they're completely alone. No one wants me here anyway. This is, I'm doing everyone a favor.

[00:34:31] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:34] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yep.

[00:34:34] Amy Lotsberg: mother, um, took her life uh, she wrote a letter to her daughter, my friend and I. She gave it to me to read it. And it was really, it was a lot of that. It wasn't, oh, poor woe is me.

[00:34:51] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Right.

[00:34:52] Amy Lotsberg: I don't really see any reason to continue. You'll be better off. Everybody I know will be better off.

I'll be

[00:34:57] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:34:58] Amy Lotsberg: And it was very matter of [00:35:00] fact, very

[00:35:00] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. Yes.

[00:35:02] Amy Lotsberg: and it was really hard to read.

[00:35:05] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:35:06] Amy Lotsberg: But

[00:35:07] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yep.

[00:35:07] Amy Lotsberg: 'cause I understood something that I didn't

[00:35:09] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:35:10] Amy Lotsberg: who's in that state.

[00:35:14] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And it, it does seem logical in those moments,

[00:35:17] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:19] Brittney Baxter Dameron: what happens with their parts of self in that sort of, um, situation is our protector parts like, well, this is better than the suffering that's never ending. This seems like the best option. And so logical parts like looking around like, yeah, okay.

I have evidence to say, yeah, it might be the best option. So I agree. And so it is literally protector and logical together, making that determination if people have been sitting on it long enough.

[00:35:51] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:51] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Sometimes, a lot of the time it's more or less a part of self that just kind of jumps in the driver's seat all of a sudden and [00:36:00] takes over where the rest of the parts, especially logical, are like, oh, what are we doing?

Don't do that. And it's too late. So it's one or both? Uh, so either it, this has been going on long enough protector's, like we can, there's no other option logic's like, yeah, there's no other option. Or this has been going on long enough where a part in the background just jumps in the driver's seat and takes over.

All of a sudden it's one or one or the other. Um, and if, even if it's one or the other, both have been probably building up for a while.

[00:36:33] Amy Lotsberg: Sure.

[00:36:35] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So what sorts of things really tell our parts of self that it's, it's too much. It's better to end it than keep going on like this. Well, emotional pain is usually the, the thing.

[00:36:46] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:47] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Emotional pain of feeling alone, of feeling like no one understands me, feeling like I'm never going to get better, nothing's gonna get better from this. I've tried all of these different medications and therapists and blah, blah, blah, and, and it's, nothing's helping. [00:37:00] Whatever, whatever. I mean, it's really that point where I've done everything.

I know how.

[00:37:09] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:37:10] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. So that's really the most, uh, harmful piece of having depression is just your parts of self, not necessarily working the way you want them to and reaching these types of conclusions. It's better to end it than to keep going.

[00:37:30] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:32] Prevention Through Connection

[00:37:32] Brittney Baxter Dameron: A lot of people talk about, oh, suicide prevention. Suicide prevention. It's not just keeping someone alive if they're, you know, in the, in the middle of an attempt or right before they attempt.

It's all of the, the prevention stuff that leads up before this.

[00:37:46] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:47] Brittney Baxter Dameron: If someone's not feeling so lonely, that suicide prevention, if someone can say, yeah, I'm experiencing these symptoms and I know what I gotta do, I need to go outside. I need to do yoga, I need to meditate, I need to go to church. It doesn't matter.

Like if [00:38:00] you have a repertoire of things that help you get through this, then that's suicide prevention.

[00:38:05] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:06] Brittney Baxter Dameron: you have people who depend on you, that's not always suicide prevention, but it usually is. Um, there's a lot of things to do right now if you have symptoms of depression or you know, someone who has symptoms of depression.

Build these connections. Social connections are the most important things. Connections with nature, whether you're go outside, hug a tree, you have a cat, it doesn't matter. Connections with nature is the next second best thing.

[00:38:34] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:35] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So connections with other people, connections with nature. Your connection with yourself is also right up there if you don't have a good connection with yourself.

If your relationship with yourself isn't great,

[00:38:45] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:46] Brittney Baxter Dameron: on that. That's gonna be suicide prevention too. The, the better you feel towards yourself, your parts of self, the less, uh, chances of any suicidal ideation or attempts you'll have.

[00:38:55] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:57] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So there's a lot of things.

[00:38:58] Medication Tradeoffs

[00:38:58] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Medications [00:39:00] will help take the edge off depending on your circumstance.

A lot of medications, especially for teenagers, do have a warning that says, if you start taking an antidepressant, it can increase the chances of suicidal ideation or attempts.

[00:39:16] Amy Lotsberg: I've seen that on commercials. I, it seems so backwards to me.

[00:39:19] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Uhhuh. The, the prevailing thought is the, the medication helps to lift the symptoms of depression enough to give motivation to off yourself.

[00:39:29] Amy Lotsberg: Uh.

[00:39:32] Brittney Baxter Dameron: That's the most plausible answer I've heard. And that's really the only thing that I've heard to explain. Um, if I look at it from a parts of self point of view, it does help to, the antidepressants help bring the body out of that immobilized state. And so you're more mobilized. And if you're more mobilized, then you're more likely to act [00:40:00] on the ideation you already had.

[00:40:02] Amy Lotsberg: Okay.

[00:40:04] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And so that's why I, I buy this e explanation, but to me,

[00:40:10] Amy Lotsberg: sense. It

[00:40:11] Brittney Baxter Dameron: yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:12] Amy Lotsberg: sense than, you know, just taking this medication to help you not feel like this is gonna make you feel like this,

[00:40:20] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Right, exactly.

[00:40:21] Amy Lotsberg: So yeah, that makes more sense.

[00:40:23] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. So I do want to follow a PA recommendations and say, you know, go to good and antidepressant, but that's not always the answer.

[00:40:36] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:38] Brittney Baxter Dameron: I've known lots of people who have been on antidepressants for a really long time and they take the edge off, but that's not the be all end all.

[00:40:45] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:47] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And a lot of the time psychiatrists these days are trying to add, uh, not just more antidepressants on top of an antidepressant.

They're trying to add antipsychotics

[00:40:56] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:58] Brittney Baxter Dameron: and a lot. For some people it [00:41:00] helps, but for a lot of people it doesn't.

[00:41:02] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:41:02] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And I'm speaking to my experiences of course, and what I hate about antipsychotics is if I'm working with someone and doing, you know, deeper work, especially with parts work, it really screws it up.

[00:41:15] Amy Lotsberg: Oh,

[00:41:16] Brittney Baxter Dameron: It really screws it up. So if you have depression and you're working on deeper things and anti-psychotic is not conducive to that,

[00:41:24] Amy Lotsberg: does it prevent you from going that deep?

[00:41:28] Brittney Baxter Dameron: the best way I can explain it is, um, you know how on train tracks sometimes if there's, uh, tracks converging or whatever and they have like the track switcher. That's kinda what happens in our heads. So our different parts of self are different clusters of neural pathways, neural networks. And so between different parts of self, there's neural pathways.

And so these antipsychotics do the, the switcher. And so you're either can't access certain parts of self or it [00:42:00] opens access to other parts of self you don't want access to.

[00:42:03] Amy Lotsberg: Oh,

[00:42:04] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So it just really, uh, screws things up.

[00:42:08] Amy Lotsberg: huh.

[00:42:09] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Another example I can give with a n antipsychotics is, um, if I'm working with someone with parts of self, I always, we always take a look at the mental meeting space and see what's going on within that environment and what, what's going on with parts of self.

So the antipsychotics can really blow that up, for lack of a better word. For example, I had a client who wasn't taking an antipsychotic and you know, things. For years we're about the same in the mental meeting space. You know, doing little incremental work at a time because there's a lot of trauma. And she got on an antipsychotic and her mental meeting space was just so fucked up.

[00:42:49] Amy Lotsberg: Really?

[00:42:50] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. Like, things were happening that shouldn't have been happening and her parts were freaking out and it is like, wow. And the only thing that changed was the anti-psychotic.

[00:42:58] Amy Lotsberg: that is

[00:42:59] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. [00:43:00] Yeah. So of course.

[00:43:01] Amy Lotsberg: guess.

[00:43:02] Brittney Baxter Dameron: No, no, you're good. You're good. Of course, what I'm talking about is from my own experiences, and not everyone has this experience, but, uh, just knowing how parts of self and the neural networks and all of that go anti-psychotics aren't conducive to working on deeper things.

[00:43:19] Amy Lotsberg: Okay.

[00:43:20] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:43:20] Therapy And Deeper Work

[00:43:20] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So anyway, um, medications are, are fine and good, but that's not going to get to the roots. Of everything. And so if you have a depression and you want to not be depressed anymore, a good EMDR therapist is gonna be great. An EMDR and ego state therapist is even better.

[00:43:38] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:39] Brittney Baxter Dameron: C-B-T-D-B-T that will get you so far, which is good stuff, but you wanna go deeper than that because really with every, um, diagnosable mental health disorder, it always boils down to what's going on with your stress response,

[00:43:54] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:56] Brittney Baxter Dameron: and that's what's going on with depression.

You're just kind of stuck in the, [00:44:00] the shutdown mode.

[00:44:01] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:03] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So again, going outside, listening to music, getting your body activated somehow medications are helpful, and then really building your human connections. If you have people who are, you're lucky enough people reach out to you, don't just ignore their call answer.

It's really hard to muster up the motivation to want to talk with someone. So be honest, like, I'm not really filling up to talking today, but I'm, I'm happy to listen to what you have to say or if you wanna listen to me, that's cool, but even if we just wanna hang out on the phone for five minutes in silence, whatever.

[00:44:36] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah,

[00:44:37] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. If someone reaches out to you, reach back out. It's even harder for you to reach out with someone not reaching out to you. So if someone's reaching out to you, please take that lifeline.

[00:44:50] Amy Lotsberg: sure.

[00:44:53] Reaching Out To Others

[00:44:53] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Have you known anyone? Well that one lady you were talking about, like, have you tried reaching out to her or anyone who was like really in the [00:45:00] throes of depression?

[00:45:02] Amy Lotsberg: I did try with her. Um, she had so many other things going on that usually ended up being a, detrimental to me.

[00:45:11] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:45:12] Amy Lotsberg: And I had other friends saying, do not talk to her.

[00:45:15] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Aw.

[00:45:16] Amy Lotsberg: She is everything worse. Uh, do not believe her bullshit. She's making it up. You know,

[00:45:23] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Sure.

[00:45:24] Amy Lotsberg: thing. So then I kind of realized she was toxic and I kinda stopped talking to her.

[00:45:28] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Sure.

[00:45:29] Amy Lotsberg: I do have another friend now who I believe is going, probably has been, but in a depression. She talks a lot about how lonely she is.

[00:45:41] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Mm.

[00:45:42] Amy Lotsberg: She talks a lot and, and, uh, about, you know, she does have friends. She's got. I check in with her every once in a while, but like, we were gonna go to a show together and she was very excited about going to the show.

[00:45:57] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Uhhuh.

[00:45:58] Amy Lotsberg: I reached out to her a week ahead and I [00:46:00] said, are you still coming to the show with us? And she said, I don't really feel like going.

[00:46:03] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yep.

[00:46:03] Amy Lotsberg: like, oh,

[00:46:06] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yep.

[00:46:06] Amy Lotsberg: that makes me worry.

[00:46:08] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Mm. Uh.

[00:46:10] Amy Lotsberg: I said, are you okay? And she just texted me, this is all of her text. She just texted me back and she said, I'm okay. And with like a little smiley face or something.

And I'm like, I don't think I'm buying that.

[00:46:23] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. Yeah. Don't buy it.

[00:46:26] Amy Lotsberg: to reach out to her again because I, I am worried about her.

[00:46:29] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah, definitely. And that's, that's very typical of people who have depression. It's like, oh yeah, it's fine.

[00:46:37] Amy Lotsberg: Don't

[00:46:37] Brittney Baxter Dameron: I'm good. Don't worry about me. Yeah, that's right.

[00:46:41] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:46:43] Brittney Baxter Dameron: One of the main, like common negative cognitions with people with depression is, I am a burden.

[00:46:50] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah.

[00:46:52] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And so if they're already feeling like a burden, they don't wanna burden in everyone, anyone else with how they're feeling?

Well, I don't, I don't wanna settle you with that, [00:47:00] so don't, don't worry about me. I'm fine.

[00:47:02] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah,

[00:47:04] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And that's why it's so important to reach out.

[00:47:07] Amy Lotsberg: yeah,

[00:47:08] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. So I. I think if you know anyone who has depression, like if it's a friend, a family member, coworker, it doesn't matter if, if you like them enough, I mean, please do reach out

[00:47:19] Amy Lotsberg: yeah,

[00:47:21] Brittney Baxter Dameron: if you don't like them.

If it seems really annoying or whatever, don't reach out. That's gonna be more detrimental.

[00:47:28] Amy Lotsberg: yeah.

[00:47:29] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah,

[00:47:29] Amy Lotsberg: you're not reaching out with the right mindset, it's not gonna help them either.

[00:47:33] Brittney Baxter Dameron: that's right. Yep. And if you do reach out, the last thing you wanna do is be critical. 'cause if you're critical in any sort of, even if you're trying to be constructively critical, it's not going to be received well.

[00:47:46] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:47] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Um, it's gonna be received as, oh, well I am fucking up even more.

[00:47:50] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:51] Brittney Baxter Dameron: well, I can't talk to them because all I'm gonna do is get criticized and harassed and blah, blah blah, and so I'm just gonna stop talking with them.

[00:48:00] And there's even more social isolation, there's even more negative cognitions, so on and so forth. So you're absolutely right. You have to come into it with the right intentions and motivations.

[00:48:11] After The Episode

[00:48:11] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah, so last thing I'm gonna talk about is when people can lift out of symptoms of depression, it feels way, way better.

[00:48:23] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:23] Brittney Baxter Dameron: And so if, if anybody knows anyone who's all of a sudden like happier or pep or wants to do something more, well maybe ask them how things were for them, you know, leading up to today, how, how are the last few months for you? And that way you can tell, like if someone was in, um, in a major depressive episode, essentially that's the two weeks long at a time of feeling downside blah, and motivated all the other symptoms.

Um, if you know they've had a major depressive episode before, then you wanna keep in contact with them more regularly

[00:48:58] Amy Lotsberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:58] Brittney Baxter Dameron: if someone's had [00:49:00] depression before, they're likely to have it again.

[00:49:02] Amy Lotsberg: Sure.

[00:49:04] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So there's different ways to diagnose depression. So major depressive disorder, uh, it can be uh, a single episode, it can be recurrent episodes, it can be mild, moderate, severe. Severe is what has the, um, the psychosis, the suicide attempts, that kind of stuff. Um, and so,

what am I trying to say with this? The more you know, someone who has a history of depression, the more you can stay in it and help be a, a good support.

[00:49:37] Amy Lotsberg: Sure.

[00:49:40] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah. So there's so many other things I'm gonna talk about. Bipolar disorder is a form of depression, but we'll talk about that another episode as well.

[00:49:48] Amy Lotsberg: Yeah, I'm interested in that. Bipolar and, and borderline.

[00:49:53] Brittney Baxter Dameron: yeah.

[00:49:54] Amy Lotsberg: I always mix 'em up in my head because they both start with B, but I know they're very different.

[00:49:58] Brittney Baxter Dameron: They're different and people do [00:50:00] mix 'em up a lot. And so when we do, um, bipolar disorder, we will also touch on borderline for sure.

[00:50:07] Amy Lotsberg: Okay.

[00:50:08] Brittney Baxter Dameron: Yeah.

[00:50:09] Treat Yourself And Credits

[00:50:09] Brittney Baxter Dameron: So I don't wanna be depressing. I think, uh, if anyone's listened to this, um, do something fun for yourself. Do something that you enjoy. Uh, nature is great, but if you wanna get something from Caribou coffee, go get it.

Have fun. You know, just a little treat a little something to pep you up because talking about depression, having depression is no fun

[00:50:31] Amy Lotsberg: yeah,

[00:50:33] Brittney Baxter Dameron: to treat yourself. Yeah.

[00:50:35] Amy Lotsberg: I like that.

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[00:51:17] Speaker: [00:51:00] This Way In is co-produced by Brittany Baxter Damron and me Amy Lotsberg at Collected Sounds Media. I also edit and manage the show, which is part of the Collected Sounds Independent podcast network.