322. Talk Back: Why Arguing With Yourself Can Help You Flourish

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: Arguing with yourself may be the best way to flourish. My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I'm excited to speak with Martin Seligman. Marty is a world-renowned psychologist and professor at the University of Pennsylvania. He's the director of the Positive Psychology Center. His groundbreaking research has fundamentally reshaped how science understands human wellbeing. He has authored more than 30 books, including Flourish, Authentic Happiness, and his latest, Agency: The Psychological History of Human Progress. Well, welcome, Martin. I first learned of your work when I was an undergraduate. The work you did in learned helplessness was really fascinating and actually helped me want to study more in psychology. Thank you, and thank you for being here. 

[00:00:56] Martin Seligman: I'm pleased to be here, Matt. I have to confess I'm intimidated by the title of your endeavor. I used to be fast, and now I'm slow, and I used to be smart, and now the best I can do is be contemplative. 

[00:01:11] Matt Abrahams: Oh, well, I appreciate that, and we will have a lovely conversation that goes deep and contemplates lots of important things. Shall we get started? 

[00:01:19] Martin Seligman: Okay. 

[00:01:20] Matt Abrahams: Excellent. So it is rare to get the opportunity to speak with somebody who started an entire field. You started the field of wellness and wellbeing and happiness research in psychology. We've had several guests on the show who've talked about things in this field, Sonja Lyubomirsky, Laurie Santos, Arthur Brooks, and I'd love to get your take on it. You, across the studying you do, have studied something called flourishing. Can you share with us a bit about what flourishing is and what we can do to achieve it? 

[00:01:51] Martin Seligman: Well, my interest in flourishing started because it was a field that psychology wouldn't touch, the question of how to be happy. And my experience, and probably yours, Matt, when you lie in bed at night, you're not thinking about how to go from minus eight to minus three. You're thinking about how to go from plus three to plus eight in life. Well, there was no psychology of that, and that was my motive for founding, when I was president of the American Psychological Association, the field of positive psychology, which is about flourishing. And for me, flourishing has five elements. The acronym is PERMA. P is positive emotion, subjective well-being. E is engagement, how absorbed you are right now in our conversation. R is relationships, good relationships. M is one sense of meaning and mattering. And A is accomplishment and achievement. So for me, flourishing relies on five pillars I call PERMA.

[00:03:06] Matt Abrahams: It's very clear that each of those can help us all feel better. In your work and in your research, do all five need to be in place for someone to feel that sense of wellbeing and flourishing? Or is it just having one or two areas where you really feel accomplished or passionate? Is that enough? 

[00:03:24] Martin Seligman: Not at all. It's like a dashboard on an airplane. So there are lots of dials on an airplane, but if you wanna get there as cheaply as possible, it's the central dial that matters. If you wanna get there as comfortably as possible, it's the radar that matters. Similarly with PERMA, I'm a high meaning and accomplishment person. Those are the two of the five that really matter for me. So for me, flourishing is knowing about the techniques of more meaning in my life and the techniques of more accomplishment. It's secondary to me, the hedonics, how much joy I feel and how engaged I am. Like the dashboard on an airplane, it depends on what you care about.

[00:04:17] Matt Abrahams: Ah, so each of us can reflect what's most important. So as I look at PERMA, I feel that relationships and meaning are what's most important in my life, and I can try to optimize for those as almost a roadmap for how we can find our way to deeper fulfillment and flourishing simply by thinking through these five variables and what's important for us, and then how to optimize for them. I appreciate that, and challenge everybody listening to think about where you fall on passion, enjoyment, relationship, meaning, and accomplishment.

[00:04:51] Some of your work talks about the internal conversations we have with ourselves, the monologue, that self-tape we have playing in our head. How does this shape our worldview? And if we're not happy with that chatter, are there things we can do to change it? 

[00:05:08] Martin Seligman: Well, I think the most important revolution in psychology in my lifetime was the cognitive revolution. Before that came along, people believed that emotion was primary, and what you said to yourself, what you thought, was a product of emotion. We now know at least that what you think very often determines your emotion and your action. What you think is not gospel. It's often whispered to you by someone whose mission in life was to make you miserable. So it's very important to be on top of your internal dialogue, and then if you're finding it makes you depressed and anxious, to argue against it rationally. So a lot of what one does in flourishing and positive psychology, which came right out of cognitive therapy, was to become very sensitive to what we're saying to ourselves and learn how to argue against it when it was leading you places you didn't wanna go. 

[00:06:22] Matt Abrahams: This idea of listening to that chatter can be hard for many of us. Are there techniques that you know of or perhaps use yourself that give us insight to it? I mean, the voice in my head, I'm just so used to hearing, I don't really sit and reflect on it. How can I best dispassionately learn about it? 

[00:06:39] Martin Seligman: As a pessimist and a depressive, I've spent a lifetime inventing these techniques and using them. And on the pessimistic depressive side, the voices are always going to occur to you. They're not eliminated. What happens is you can counter them. And so for example, Matt, before I came on the show with you, I was quite anxious about it, and I was thinking, "Good heavens, I'm in my 80s. Can I really keep up with Matt and talk fast and smart?

[00:07:13] And gee, I'm too old for this." And when we came on together, indeed I was thinking something like that. But as the listener doesn't know, we had three technical difficulties. During the time you and I made friends, I argued against that. Here I'm dealing with one of the experts on impromptu speech, and I'm doing great. And so I essentially argued against, "I just can't be fast and smart." So I've become an expert both at hearing what I say to myself, but at realistically marshaling evidence against depressive and pessimistic thoughts. 

[00:07:58] Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate that. Thank you for enduring the technical difficulties, and I actually have enjoyed our conversation in between those very much. And what I really like about what you have said is that the words that we say to ourselves are merely arguments that can be countered, and they can be countered with evidence. So in a lot of my coaching work and some of my teaching work, there are a lot of people who experience what I think would generally be defined as imposter syndrome.

[00:08:27] The stories they're telling themselves is they don't deserve this, or they're not up to the challenge. And what I hear you saying is you can use evidence to counter that position. You can say, "Look, you were invited to give this talk. You were promoted to this position." This is all evidence that runs counter to that story you're telling yourself. And I can see how that would lead to more positive feeling, or at least a reduction of the negative feeling. Do I have that right? 

[00:08:55] Martin Seligman: The two things to know about the imposter syndrome are first, those voices that are telling you you're an imposter have nothing to do with reality. They have to do with deep worries, with childhood, what your parents used to say to you. That's part one. They're not realistic, so you should treat them as not realistic, and then marshal all the evidence about why you got here and what your credentials were, and that it's not an accident that you're sitting in this position now. So the imposter syndrome can be dealt well with those two steps.

[00:09:38] Matt Abrahams: Absolutely, and thank you for that. And I think all of us can talk back to some of that chatter that we have in our head. A lot of what you have shared with us so far in your work is about becoming aware of these patterns, habits, just inclinations we have. With the realization of the future looms large in how we feel and what we do, what are some things we can do to maximize wellness, relationships, communication with that knowledge?

[00:10:10] Martin Seligman: From the point of view of happiness, I think the notion of agency becomes very important. And indeed, agency is what my new book is about. It's the culmination of 60 years of work, and I think it's the most informative tool we have both about our futures and the human future. 

[00:10:34] Matt Abrahams: Can you define what you mean by agency? I found your book fascinating. And what are some of the key components that make up our sense of agency? 

[00:10:43] Martin Seligman: I think there are three. The first is efficacy, and that's to what extent do you believe that you can achieve your goals in the here and now? The second is optimism. To what extent do you believe you're gonna be able to achieve those goals in the future and far into the future? And the third is imagination, and that is the range of goals that you can envision about your future. So a complete sense of efficacy, of agency as efficacy, optimism, and imagination. 

[00:11:27] Matt Abrahams: You helped found the field of positive psychology. You are the founder of that field. I know from talking to people and having seen it develop that there were some naysayers, there was some resistance. What advice do you have for people who are initiating new ideas, new approaches for helping be persuasive and influential to at least get people to consider a different approach? Any insights from the experience you went through getting to where you are today? 

[00:11:59] Martin Seligman: Well, I think it's important to put yourself in the shoes of your critics, to anticipate what's wrong, to become comfortable with their arguments, and to make your best arguments against it. And I, I'm just remembering the late Barbara Ehrenreich, who was one of the critics of positive psychology. She wrote a book called Bright-sided, which compared me to The Wizard of Oz. And in the last few months of her life, we got into a dialogue together in which she said something like, "Well, you probably have a very dim view of me, Marty, and you probably think my prospects are not very good because I'm not a promo person." And I said, "Well, not at all, Barb. You're so engaged in these issues of social justice that your engagement is enormous, and that is a health and optimism and life-preserving force." And I remember Barbara writing me shortly before her death, telling me how meaningful that was in the face of this merciless criticism that she had given me. So owning and befriending your critics is important. 

[00:13:18] Matt Abrahams: That reflection on what's important to them and where they're coming from can allow you to have a much more meaningful conversation. Well, Marty, this has been a phenomenal conversation. Thank you so much. As you well know, we end with three questions, one I will make up for you and two that I've been asking everybody. And we've spent a lot of time talking about the internal communication we have. I'm curious to understand your perspective on the external communication. How do we maximize our communication to help ourselves and help others? 

[00:13:49] Martin Seligman: Well, something happened 20 years ago which turned this field around for me, and that was let's think about how people celebrate together rather than how they fight together. So the question is not how you go wrong, but what do you say to your spouse or your best friend when they come to you with a victory, with a triumph? And that's something that people have not worked on. If you can imagine a two by two destructive, constructive, active, and passive, the only one that really works is active constructive. So let me just give you an example of that.

[00:14:34] My wife Mandy is a amateur black and white photographer. And a few years ago, she came downstairs and said to me, "Marty, the editor of Black and White Magazine just called me, and I won the international award for the best black and white photograph." Okay, what should I say to Mandy when she comes down with that? Well, what I would have said until I had read the revolutionary work on communication and marriage was, "Congratulations, dear. You deserve it. You're a great photographer." Well, that's called passive-constructive, and it has no effect. It's wallpaper. But I knew the literature on active-constructive. And so here's what I said.

[00:15:27] First, I had to show Mandy that I really knew what she was talking about. So I said, "Was it the black and white picture of the swan that you took in Blenheim last summer that won it?" And she said, "Yes, it was, in fact." I said, "Well, you know, Mandy, that's the most beautiful black and white picture of an animal I've ever seen." So that was part one, showing that you really knew what the triumph was about. But here comes the part that's important and we neglect out of haste often, and that's to put Mandy in touch with this great victory she just had. So I said, "Mandy, tell me verbatim, what did the editor of Black and White say?"

[00:16:14] And so she went through it. I said, "Well, then, what do you think it is about your photography that could have snatched the prizes away from The New York Times Pulitzer Prize winner?" And she said, "I think I'm very good with gray, and I do a lot with nuances." And then I said, "Okay, well, how can you teach kids this technique in their drawing and photography?" And so we talked about that. Then I said, "Mandy, let's go to the refrigerator and open that bottle of Dom Perignon that's been sitting there for a decade." 

[00:16:50] Matt Abrahams: That idea of being constructive and engaged in dialogue around that, really, really insightful because most people just act in a very heuristic way. "Hey, you won an award. Congratulations." This requires a bit more thought and presence. 

[00:17:05] Martin Seligman: It takes a lot of work. And the reason we say things like, "What's for dinner?" or, "Congratulations," is we, we're not used to doing that work, and it doesn't come naturally. But the other person knows that, and that's why it's wallpaper. So active-constructive communication is a difficult technique, and it takes practice, and we can get better at it. 

[00:17:31] Matt Abrahams: The rewards for doing that are a deepening of the relationship, and I appreciate that. Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 

[00:17:42] Martin Seligman: I'm thinking Ludwig Wittgenstein, actually, although I've never heard him in speech. But I've read some of the impromptu things that he had to say, and the one that's on my mind right now, because I've been thinking about the question of what is the meaning of life, and it is not a good question at all. Wittgenstein said, impromptu, I'm told, "I don't know why we're here, but I'm pretty sure it's not to be happy."

[00:18:17] Matt Abrahams: I can see why somebody who founded positive psychology would be enamored with that or, or curious about it. I have to ask, you said that the meaning of life is a bad question. What is the meaning of life? 

[00:18:27] Martin Seligman: Yeah, and the reason I think it's bad is that meaningless wears the pants here. And so I think it's a yearning in which what we understand is meaningless and empty, and that meaning means something like not empty and not meaningless. So that's kind of where I am about why it's not a good question. 

[00:18:53] Matt Abrahams: I appreciate that. Final question for you. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 

[00:19:02] Martin Seligman: Well, Matt, that's really difficult because I've never prepared for speeches, and I've always wanted spontaneity. Uh, so for me, I don't go through any conscious ingredient. And the older I've gotten, the more I've just hoped that the words would come, and they have. 

[00:19:28] Matt Abrahams: I think one of the key ingredients that you deploy, you just mentioned, is spontaneity, and you've certainly talked about this notion of empathy or perspective taking as well, and then being good at arguing or putting forth rational explanations. So I think you do have some principles that you follow. You might just not see them in the forefront. This has been a fantastic conversation. It's a bit of a fanboy moment for me to meet you. Your work has always been meaningful to me, and the work that you have done really matters, and this idea of agency and how we can all develop agency in ourselves and others, really, really significant to well-being in general. Marty, thank you for your time, and thank you for all the work you have done. 

[00:20:11] Martin Seligman: Thank you for the opportunity not to be fast and not to be smart. 

[00:20:17] Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Speaking with Marty was a true pleasure. Among the many ideas he shared, the one that stands out most to me is that we can change our negative self-talk and feel better by providing logical arguments that counter our negative narratives. To learn more about happiness and wellbeing, please listen to our special miniseries on the topic, including episodes 179 through 182. You'll hear from guests like Laurie Santos and Arthur Brooks. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, Alex McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram.