316. The Persuasion Equation: Grab Attention & Make Your Message Meaningful

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: Perfecting your persuasion and increasing your influence can help you in your communication, both at work and in your personal life. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I look forward to speaking again with Carmine Gallo. Carmine was my guest in episode 103. He's the founder and CEO of Gallo Communications. Carmine is a communication coach, Harvard Graduate School of Design lecturer, and the author of several really influential and important books, like Talk Like TED, The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs, The Bezos Blueprint, and his new audiobook, Viral Voices: From TED to TikTok, Persuasive Techniques for the Digital Age. Welcome back, Carmine. We had such a great conversation last time. I appreciate you being here. 

[00:00:53] Carmine Gallo: Thanks, Matt, and thank you for inviting me. 

[00:00:55] Matt Abrahams: Should we get started? 

[00:00:56] Carmine Gallo: Yes. 

[00:00:56] Matt Abrahams: Excellent. Your new audiobook is based on the premise that the brain does not pay attention to boring things. In today's hyper-distracted attention economy, what is the first thing a communicator must do to bypass the cognitive spam filters that come up?

[00:01:14] Carmine Gallo: I love the fact that you brought up the brain doesn't pay attention to boring things. If that's all our listeners get from today's podcast, that will significantly improve their communication skills. Because the brain, when it doesn't have to pay attention to something because it deems it not a threat or not essential for survival, it'll move on to something else. Very happy to do so. And it'll conserve energy. So the challenge that we all have as communicators is how to, like you said, get through that filter, how to grab the brain's attention. And we do that by raising the signal through the noise. And there's a lot of noise out there today.

[00:01:57] The best way for a communicator to get their ideas across is to strengthen the signal, and that will cut through the noise, cut through the filter, capture the brain's attention. And what I've been taught by neuroscientists and many people who I've interviewed is that there are two primary ways of getting through those filters. Right now, especially in the age of AI, we do have something unique that AI does not have: emotion. Joy and fear are two of the most powerful emotions, and that's why social media prioritizes threats. "If you don't do this now, you'll be in trouble." Those go viral because it ignites the threat response.

[00:02:39] Or on the other hand, on business presentations, business communication, "If you do this, if you take these three steps, you can thrive in the age of AI." So that gives me some, something to hope for. But as long as things connect to an emotion, that is the principal way of cutting through that noise, getting through that filter. The other way is make sure that whatever you say applies to the audience. Because the other question that the brain is asking itself is, why should I care about this person? Why should I care about the content? So for example, in this podcast, you should care because what Matt and I are going to discuss will help you build the career that you dreamed of and thrive in the age of AI. So listen up, because we're gonna give you a lot of good tips. 

[00:03:30] Matt Abrahams: Wow, what a great hook. So it's about relevance and salience, and it's about emotion, and that's what helps the brain focus and gets people engaged, and I really appreciate that. And many of us don't start from that place. In Viral Voices, your new audiobook, you explore a multitude of communicators. The list is large, and they're very different from Barack Obama to MrBeast. Is there a common denominator between a historic presidential address, let's say, and a highly engaged viral YouTube video? And if there is, what is it and why should we care about it? 

[00:04:01] Carmine Gallo: The one big lesson that I learned from two years of doing the research on Viral Voices is something that I think everybody needs to understand, and that is that the tools of communication have changed, the human brain has not. So now you're talking about the human brain, which is a 350,000 year construction project. TikTok has not been around long enough to rewire our brains, but there are patterns. If you look at patterns, they're very similar, which was the cool thing about the people I interviewed. You mentioned Barack Obama and MrBeast. Okay. What are the similarities? Both are storytellers. Different types of stories, different audiences, different platforms, but they are both skilled at weaving together a narrative that makes you wanna be a part of the story.

[00:04:53] I interviewed Barack Obama's speechwriter, his name is Terry Szuplat, who also now teaches at the university level, and he told me that a good speech has things like structure, a melody like a song. I said, "Like a song? What do you mean by that?" He said, "Let's take a look at some speeches." We broke down some speeches. And that's the cool part about having an audio original, because then you can cut to the speeches. So Barack Obama, "Yes we can," those three words. But the way they wrote it at the end of a sentence provided a melody to it. So what the speechwriter was trying to show me is that everything starts with good writing, but writing is part science, part art. And you have to think about what's the structure.

[00:05:42] MrBeast has a three-act structure, much like a good Hollywood film. He understands that here's the status quo, here's the problem we're gonna solve, here's the conflict that's going to arise if we don't solve this problem, but together we're gonna solve the problem. So the, it's, uh, very much structural. So you can learn something from great communicators. That's the point. You can learn something about the written word and delivery and melody and construction. You can also learn how to grab people's attention quickly and keep their attention. I think all great communicators in different platforms have something to teach us, but above all, there's patterns.

[00:06:23] Matt Abrahams: The fact that we are communicating through different tools, different techniques, we're still communicating with the same old brain we've had. And so those lessons learned in the past apply today, and I appreciate you delineating many of them. And I love this idea of communication having a musicality, a melody to it, and you see that in many of the most admired communicators we have.

[00:06:46] A lot of your new work is around persuasion, influence. As you look back, not just in the work you did for Viral Voices, but in your esteemed career, can you identify two or three persuasion techniques, tools, or tactics that you think everyone should have in their influence toolkit? 

[00:07:04] Carmine Gallo: The hook, the analogy, the context. Hook is important, especially now more than ever, because of social media. So it is important to, what they say, stop the scroll. If you're doing a podcast, if you're doing any type of social media, you've gotta stop people from just scrolling and moving on blindly. How do you create a hook that grabs their attention? Again, great communicators do this all the time. Let's go back to 1998. Sergey Brin and Larry Page were here as Stanford graduate students. They came up with a new search engine called Google, and they crafted a one-sentence pitch, and the pitch went like this: "Google organizes the world's information and makes it accessible."

[00:07:50] They used that pitch when they went to meet with Michael Moritz of Sequoia Capital, one of the big venture capitalists in Silicon Valley. I interviewed Michael Moritz years ago, and he said he still remembers that line because it grabbed his attention. Then the follow-up was, "Oh, that's interesting. Can I see a demo? Does it work? Then we can talk about finances." But the hook he said, he didn't call it a hook, he said that one line meant everything. And now if you go on social media, go on TikTok, and all these content creators are trying to teach you how to grab people's attention in the first three seconds.

[00:08:28] Get to the point, get to it quickly, make it relevant, tell people why they should care, and they'll start leaning in. You asked for top three persuasion techniques. Okay, so think about the hook. Analogy. Analogy is something I'm really focused on these days because great communicators tend to use more analogy than average communicators. An analogy's comparing two things to show their similarities, usually used to take something that's abstract and make it familiar. Warren Buffett is the king of analogies and metaphors.

[00:09:03] So every time you watch CNBC, you'll always find an analyst who says, "I love this stock because this company has a moat around it." Well, I looked that up. This whole thing about the moat, it has barriers to entry, makes it hard for competitors to enter that space. This whole idea of a company or stock having a moat, that comes from a newsletter that Warren Buffett wrote about 40 years ago. So it stands the test of time because it's a shortcut. Start with a hook. Make sure you have analogies and comparisons. And something we've already mentioned, context. Make people care as soon as possible. Because from what I've learned from neuroscientists, the brain is asking itself the question, "Make me care.

[00:09:49] Why should I listen?" Otherwise, the brain has a lot of other stuff to do, and it, it gets bored easily. Make them care right at the beginning. This new platform, this new software that we're gonna talk about today is going to save us X amount of money, which means that we're going to have a better career here at the company, and we can hire those 10 new staffers that can support us. Make it relevant. Tell people right up front, "Here is why you should listen to the rest of my presentation." And they will, but you have to hand it to them. Hand it to them on a platter. 

[00:10:25] Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. So you've given us the HAC, hook, analogy, and contents. HAC. And what I want everybody who's listening and watching to recognize is what Carmine did is, as he went through that, he gave you the information. He said what it was, the hook, the analogy, explained what it was, and then gave a concrete example, and that's another way to help the brain learn. You give an idea, and then you reinforce it. And you did that expertly without calling attention to it.

[00:10:49] I want to get into the details and the mechanics of some of the things that you've studied and you write and talk about. You rely on, a lot on the three-act structure. And you talk about beats. And I'd love for you to share with us how we can apply things like the three-act structure and beats to our everyday communication. Not a TED Talk, not when we're doing a big presentation. When we're on a Zoom, a Team, a Meet, when we're having our normal interactions, how can we leverage these tools to help us be better and more engaging in our communication? 

[00:11:21] Carmine Gallo: Every Hollywood movie that's successful has a three-act structure. So three-act structure, set up, conflict, resolution. That's very easy to apply in almost any pitch, presentation, a Zoom meeting. Folks, here we are today. Here's the problem with where we are today, and here's how we're gonna solve that problem. That's easy. I like this idea called beats. I enjoy talking to screenwriters because they're really good storytellers, and everything that they talk about applies to business presentations in some way. So they started telling me about beats, and I guess anyone who's done screenwriting knows exactly what that is. Within the three-act structure, there are scenes, important scenes.

[00:12:03] For example, in every rom-com ever made, there's the inciting incident, the catalyst, as some people call it, the catalyst. The meet cute, that's when Hugh Grant's character bumps into Julia Roberts on the streets of London and spills orange juice all over her blouse, and it just so happens that his apartment is right down the street. The adventure begins. Without that incident, there's no adventure. Now start thinking about entrepreneurs and some of the stories they tell. It's the same thing. Everyone has an inciting incident. That's part of the appeal. Two friends driving to work. One friend is upset because he got charged a $40 late fee on a VHS copy of Apollo 13, and he thought to himself, "There must be a better way."

[00:12:52] His other friend, who was an entrepreneur trying to think of some new ideas, said, "Maybe we can make video rental work better," and Netflix is born. Now, it takes a few years in between the inciting incident and for Netflix to really get going, but the incident is there. And notice something about that inciting incident, which if you look it up, you'll see that story everywhere. There's two details in that incident. There's a $40 late fee, and there's Apollo 13. There have to be a couple of details to make it sound like it would have happened. That's the art. That's kind of the art of creating a beat. But a beat is important. I've talked to a lot of investors, too, and they often ask, "What's the origin?

[00:13:40] Why did you start this company? Why did you come up with this idea?" There's always an inciting incident, but people don't think about it that way. They just go right into their product or their idea. Instead, think more like a storyteller. How would a screenwriter write the story of your life? Include the structure. Include a few catalysts or inciting incidents. Through, in every screenplay, there has to be a all is lost moment. Some people call it the all is lost. Joseph Campbell in the 1940s called it the belly of the beast, descent into the abyss. It's all the same thing. This is the low point. So now listen to Brian Chesky talk about the origins of Airbnb.

[00:14:24] You had the catalyst, the inciting incident where they rented out air mattresses to people coming into town. Airbnb is born. But then they go through a lot of ups and downs, and at one point, Brian Chesky said this many times, "We couldn't even afford milk for the cereal, but we were relentless, and we had to pivot, and we were innovative." So it kind of gives you this sense of who they are. But he always goes back to the milk and the cereal. That's the low point. I mean, you could just feel yourself struggling with it. 

[00:14:54] Matt Abrahams: Yeah. So stories have structure. They have three parts, and a beat is an important inciting event that has specific detail to it. And if we're planning a meeting, we can think about it in terms of beats. Where is the important incident? How do I want the flow to be? We so often just think we have all this material to get across, but we can actually architect our presentations, our meetings, our conversations by focusing on the beats. And I like that analogy. Beats are things that we have in music. They are timed, and they provide a point of focus, and we can build those in.

[00:15:30] Well, you've been in this seat before, so you know before we end, I like to ask three questions. One I create just for you, and the other two are similar to everybody I've interviewed. Are you up for that?

[00:15:38] Carmine Gallo: Sure.

[00:15:39] Matt Abrahams: So you have spent a lot of time on your most recent audiobook. Was there a specific tactic or realization from all of those conversations you had that fundamentally shifted your perspective on how to be a better communicator or persuader? 

[00:15:52] Carmine Gallo: Tools have changed, the brain has not. Because whether I spoke to speech writers or people who wrote presentations years ago that went viral, we could look at Steve Jobs, the Steve Jobs 2007 iPhone presentation, that's viral, okay? In a little different way than a cat meme, but it went viral on its own platform, and viral videos, like we just talked about, content creators, they follow the same structure.

[00:16:21] And Steve Jobs, that was all storytelling. And how many stories did he tell? Three He didn't give you 12, three. And you and I both know that three is a really good memorable number to have. So that's the big takeaway. Big takeaway was tools of communication have changed, human brain has not. Study psychology. Study behavioral psychology. Study the way the brain processes information. You'll be a much better and a more effective communicator. 

[00:16:49] Matt Abrahams: It is, in some ways, very simple, but very insightful. And thank you for that. Since we last spoke, you've had an opportunity to work with and talk to and coach many more speakers. So I'm wondering for question two, if the answer has changed, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 

[00:17:08] Carmine Gallo: You're getting me on during a time where Apple is celebrating its 50th anniversary, okay? So I'm a little biased and jaded right now because at home on my bookshelf is the brand-new beautiful David Pogue's book, Apple: The First 50 Years. I'm still gonna say Steve Jobs because I'm, I've been reminiscing and I've been watching even before he had slide decks and before PowerPoint, before Keynote, he was still crafting a story, a story that brought you in and made you to believe in something bigger than the product. So he gave people a reason. He gave people an identity. Here's to the crazy ones, the square pegs in the round holes, the people who aren't satisfied with the status quo.

[00:17:55] And then he said in a presentation, "Some people think they're crazy, but in that craziness we see genius." Okay, when I see this I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I want to be a part of this." To this day when I see that presentation, I want to be a part of that. That's a storyteller. That's a storyteller. Tony Fadell, who worked side by side with Steve Jobs, created the iPod, went on to found Nest and had success in other companies. He was asked not too long ago on a podcast, "What is the biggest lesson you took away from Steve Jobs?" He said, "Storytelling, storytelling, storytelling." 

[00:18:34] Matt Abrahams: I know Tony and he definitely is a good storyteller and learned a lot from Steve Jobs. Question number three, our final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 

[00:18:46] Carmine Gallo: Now more than ever we need to focus on emotion because emotion is something that AI doesn't have. So it can write pretty well. It's improving with grammar. Doesn't have emotion. So I think the three have to start with emotion. Make it emotional. Make it understandable, clarity, and make it memorable. Emotion, clarity, and make it memorable. I think if you have those three elements, you'll certainly stand out as a communicator, 'cause not everybody does that.

[00:19:17] Matt Abrahams: I appreciate those three. Thank you for summarizing them. Starting with emotion, starting with that connection, then following with clarity, really important. And those two together I think help lead to the third, which is making it memorable. As was this conversation, as I knew it would be, Carmine, thank you for your insight. Thank you for bringing the past, in some cases the distant past, into the present and helping us understand how it will help us in the future. I really appreciate your work. I wish you well on Viral Voices. It is a great listen, and I encourage everybody to continue to hone and develop their skills. Thank you.

[00:19:51] Carmine Gallo: Thank you for the invite. 

[00:19:54] Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more from Carmine, please listen to his episode 103. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community at fastersmarter.io/learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI coach, and book club opportunities. Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community.