319. Open the Portal: The Simple Science Behind Impactful Storytelling

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: Portals provide a powerful way for you to begin your communication and engage your audience. My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I'm excited to speak with Troy Campbell. Troy is the chief scientist at the firm On Your Feet, and a former behavioral science professor at the University of Oregon. Previously, he was a Disney Imagineer and a researcher at Netflix Insights. Troy specializes in blending a scientific mind with an artistic heart to understand consumer behavior, storytelling, and the psychology of human connection. Well, welcome, Troy. We have chatted on and off for a long time, and I am thrilled to actually have you in studio and the opportunity to chat with you. Thanks for being here. 

[00:00:50] Troy Campbell: Long-time listener first-time guest. Very excited to be here. 

[00:00:54] Matt Abrahams: All right. Shall we get started? 

[00:00:55] Troy Campbell: Let's do it. 

[00:00:56] Matt Abrahams: Uh, I love so many ways you frame things. Uh, you describe story theory as essentially the word because. How does understanding causality improve our storytelling? 

[00:01:08] Troy Campbell: Yeah, so, um, pretty much if you ask any theoretician of story, about one out of two of them will give you a definition that is more or less the word because. They'll talk about causality. So if you read the book Narrative by Abbott Porter, he's gonna talk about causality. If you talk to the comics professor, Kate Kelp-Stebbins, she's gonna tell you it's causality. If you listen to the South Park creators, they'll talk about how in between every scene, what happens in one scene better cause the next thing to happen, right? And causality is just this foundation that really allows us to anchor what we're trying to do when we're telling stories, which is that characters are changing, and there's something that's causing them to change. And that cause is what's gonna make it a story rather than a bullet point list. 

[00:01:58] Matt Abrahams: I just love the idea of thinking about the change, and that change is because of something. So not all of us are in situations where we have to tell grandiose stories. We're trying to pitch our business, we're trying to get people aligned to what we're saying. Help us understand how we can tell stories in our everyday jobs. 

[00:02:18] Troy Campbell: Yeah. What we can do is we can say, "You're gonna come into the workplace, and you're gonna share a piece of information." Like, "Here's an action that we want to do," or, "Here's a data point that's really important," and you're gonna explain the because behind it. And once you start saying because, and you say because a couple times, it's gonna transform something into a story. The current sales of this product are down and it's because this thing is happening. And a deeper reason is because the consumer cares about this. And it becomes this real simplified way to tell, in my opinion, what is a story, which is explaining why something has happened, what has caused a character, a set of characters, they could be your consumers, to change. 

[00:03:03] Matt Abrahams: It, it all boils down to that causality. And when you frame it that way, it makes it so much easier to think about how do I, as somebody telling the story, structure it? I first have to introduce the players, the issue, the cause, and then explain the cause that comes from that. So you start by explaining who the characters are and the components, and then the cause that's involved. One of the things that you and I connected on right away is you, like, like I, believe very strongly in frameworks and structure. And you have a great structure that I really like, GIA. Goal, insight, action. Can you tell us a little bit about that structure and how can we use it? 

[00:03:40] Troy Campbell: Yeah. Um, so goal, insight, action is goal, what your audience cares about. We wanna always start with relevance. That insight is the data, the expertise, the ingenuity, the causality, the, the reasons that you're gonna bring. And action is what your audience can do with it. And if you think about this, you'll actually see it so many times in things, right? It's how Steve Jobs always communicated. He would come up to audiences and, right, of all, all the people in the world, Steve Jobs could just be like, "Hey, Apple, we should do this. We should have this think different campaign." But instead he comes up and he says, "The goal we have in the 1990s at Apple is that we need to stand out again, that we aren't resonating." And the insight, and he says this with his hands, like that's always how he would talk.

[00:04:28] Matt Abrahams: You, you're dressed in black. I'm having a moment here.

[00:04:29] Troy Campbell: Yeah, I know. I know. Uh, my lady said I looked a little Steve Jobs when I came over here. Um, and he would be like, "My insight is that marketing is about values. And in a world that's really busy, how you stand out is focusing on values," right? And then he says, "So the action, what we're gonna take, is we are gonna have the Think Different campaign, which is gonna focus on our core value that we believe in misfits. We believe in people who believe that they can change the world." And that structure is just so simple. It, it works, whenever you're talking about data, don't jump to your data.

[00:05:01] Say, the goal we have at this organization is to reach this consumer or address this fire problem right now. Some insight we have about the consumer, about this moment is this, and the action that we can take to deal with it is this. And we teach organizations this structure, and they love not only the structure, but they love using the words because it creates sort of this collective also culture where they can signpost to their audience 'cause they've both been trained to receive and deliver in goal, insight, action. And it can just be a wonderful personal habit, but also group habit.

[00:05:33] Matt Abrahams: Goal, insight, action, I think, is a fantastic structure. And what it allows you to do, the goal is often something that's commonly shared or based on a value or your mission that's already shared. So you're already halfway there because you're tapping into something that people already believe in and then you're further focusing it. And, and like any structure, I think with a little practice and ingenuity, this can be a really useful tool. 

[00:05:56] Troy Campbell: Yeah. And the one thing I would say is, like, the goal may be the most important part of goal, insight, action, and it's that even if people have that goal, it's not always active in their brain. And so you need to remind people that that is what's important, right? Um, they might even tell you, "I know that already," but they're, it wasn't, they really didn't know that in the moment, and those motives were not activated. So make sure you always, before you're communicating, if you can, even if it's just one sentence, repeat the goal that they have that you are gonna help them with.

[00:06:32] Matt Abrahams: A, a goal, I like to say, is a focusing, has a focusing function. It helps you focus. It helps you frame the discussion and highlighting that. And assuming people understand it, and maybe some people say, "I already got the goals," still state it, and very good advice. You've developed research on identity persuasion and solution aversion. I had to practice saying that several times 'cause I, I slur the words together. When an audience is highly resistant to the truth due to solution aversion or flight from the facts, uh, as you like to say, how does a, how do we as a communicator restructure our message to avoid this?

[00:07:08] Troy Campbell: Yeah. So solutions can be very aversive. And because of these solutions, we will often deny that there's even a problem or that we need to engage in that solution. And I often like to think of solutions aversions as coming from two areas. So one is our tangible things and one are more identity based things. So a tangible thing could be just like, "I don't wanna stop drinking caramel frappuccinos." Right? And when a doctor diagnosed me with these blood sugar problems when I was younger, it was like I had a big Frappuccino on my forehead and like, "Deal with this issue or I'm not gonna believe any of the science you're telling me about my health issue."

[00:07:50] And one of the things that he did, Dr. Manuel Fernandez, is the very first thing he did is he told, is he's like, "Here's how your diet is not going to be as bad as you think it was." So before all the science and all the stuff, he was managing my solution aversion that I'd have to that. Now the second thing, and, um, this is the one that's gonna get into one of my favorite kind of storytelling principles, is identity, right?

[00:08:15] And oftentimes really what we wanna be as people is we don't wanna have our identity threatened and we wanna do things that feel authentic, right? And so if somebody is telling you to change your behavior to be more healthy in your behaviors, or you want to, or they're telling you to be more creative, or they're trying to tell you to tell storytelling, they might even think, "You know, that does sound like a good idea, but that's not who I am.

[00:08:45] That's not me." And so one of the things I really like bringing into this situation is something I worked on in my dissertation and that I now call the destiny narrative. And so the idea behind this is that in all great stories, characters change, but they go through a very specific type of change. They change into who they were always meant to be.

[00:09:04] The princess was secretly always the princess. The boy on Tatooine looking up at the twin sons longing for more always had the force inside of him, and Moana was always meant to sail across the seas. And we really, really like this thing not only in these stories, but it works in marketing, right? Unleash your inner goddess.

[00:09:22] There's a warrior inside of you. So the idea is that we are changing, but we're changing more into who we always were meant to be or who we already are, and it resolves these two psychological motives that are so in conflict all the time, right? I want to improve. I wanna have goal progress. I do kinda wanna change.

[00:09:47] But at the same time, I wanna be authentic. I wanna be me. I wanna have some sense of identity consistency. And what the destiny narrative does, it is allows for you to stay true and have narrative change at the same time. So whenever I'm trying to persuade people to change, I don't tell them storytelling is good.

[00:10:06] The very first thing I do is prove to them that they're already a storyteller. And so now all you wanna do is you wanna do more of that because you wanna do more of who you are. You might not be eating healthy, but there are some habits that you have that are already healthy, and that's important to you. So eating healthy now is more consistent with who you are. 

[00:10:24] Matt Abrahams: So much richness in that response. So let me break it down from what I'm taking away. Uh, solution aversion, resistance, hesitation, concern that people bring can be focused on something very tangible. There's something I like doing or don't like doing and you're threatening me because you're saying I should or shouldn't do that. And a great way to address that is to immediately address that resistance. This it's not as bad as you think or they're, you're, you're well-equipped to deal with this. So address the emotion, the concern before you layer on all the things that need to be done. And, uh, as you were saying that, I was reflecting on my parenting and how poorly I did because I would always lead with, "Here are all the things you have to do.

[00:11:01] And oh, by the way, you can do it." Uh, vice versa would be helpful. And then the other part with the identity piece and part of what I heard you say there, what's, what's so important is this notion of consistency. You're showing that you're already there or you have that ability, and having people reflect on that. So as we go to persuade, motivate, inspire, thinking about those areas of resistance that, that, uh, challenge or solution aversion, and then thinking about the tangible and identity issues that play out can help us restructure the narrative to motivate people more. That's fantastic.

[00:11:34] One of the things that you teach and talk about that has fundamentally changed the way I teach and think about my communication is through the lens of portals. When you talked about portals, and I'd like you to define for all of us what they mean, uh, it really changed the way I think about how I start and how I move through my communication. Can you educate us all on what you mean by portals and how we can apply that? 

[00:11:56] Troy Campbell: Yeah. So my definition of portal is about how to begin an experience. And the idea is, is that a portal is a way to transition people into an experience where the point of it is, is that you are getting them ready for the most important parts of the experience. So you might start with a bang, but you really don't. You just need to slowly transition people into it. And a lot of this is based upon Walt Disney Imagineering, and they actually use the word portal to describe how to begin experiences. So when you are walking into the Disney park, you go through a tunnel, and that tunnel even says, like, you're leaving the current space you're in, and you're going into fantasy tomorrow and the past. And that transition time inside of that tunnel and knowing the direction in which you're heading allows you to sort of start transitioning.

[00:12:54] And then when you go on each of the rides, they have these ways in which they ease you into the story that is different for each ride. So in Buzz Lightyear, that is a ride where you're gonna be on the ride and you're gonna be shooting this little laser gun. So the portal into that is a cartoony intro in which Buzz Lightyear gives you a pep talk and they show you the targets. It's silly, high energy, very focused, right? And you can think of, like, a creativity warm-up. They're like, "We're gonna be really active later in this meeting," so we do that. But the portal into Haunted Mansion is very different because Haunted Mansion is a passive ride in which you're gonna go through a haunted mansion and you're gonna look around and you're supposed to look for details.

[00:13:38] And so the way that introduces you is you walk through a graveyard noticing silly little jokes on the tombstones, and then you get in the stretching elevator where your ghost host literally tells you to look in different directions. And so it's facilitating you into those things. And what they're doing in these portals is they're doing three general psychological things that are overlapping but distinct. One, it's creating anticipation for what's to come. Second, it's getting you in the mindset shift, in the specific mindset you're supposed to be in that. And the third is it's previewing the narrative for that experience. So it's not telling you the whole story, but it's giving you enough into the narrative that you're ready to be going, what Melanie Green would call narrative transportation.

[00:14:28] Matt Abrahams: I think this is such a powerful idea. Many of us in our communication, especially high-stakes communication, we focus on what's the message we want. We don't think about how do we bring people to that message. And there are lots of ways to do it. You can think about the calendar invite you send out. That can be a beginning. As you mentioned, in a meeting, you can have some kind of icebreaker or activity to warm people up, as long as it's somehow connected to what comes. What drives me nuts is where you do some kind of icebreaker, and then the next task is totally unrelated. It's whiplash almost.

[00:14:57] Troy Campbell: It, it's, yeah, bad. The point of it is we need to activate the right parts of the brain or the right memories for the task at hand, and that's the point of a start. 

[00:15:06] Matt Abrahams: Yeah. And I liked, you know, I, I played with, uh, the three components of what a good portal does to, to make it alliterative. It's the triple A. It's anticipation. It's approach. And then I couldn't come up with anything besides altitude. It tells you what, what level we're coming. So, and you can do this not just at the beginning of, of your communication, but often in meetings you might need a portal to bring you into another topic or area. I challenge everybody listening to think about how can we look at this idea of portal, setting people up to be successful in a way that really helps. You know, at the beginning of this show, I try to do that, where I give a little bit of introductory idea to help people orient to what it is. I really appreciate that. And, and Troy, I've appreciated everything.

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[00:17:54] As you well know, we always end by asking three questions. One I make up just for you, and the other two I've asked everybody, and I'll be curious to get your answers to that. Are you up for this? 

[00:18:02] Troy Campbell: Let's do it. 

[00:18:03] Matt Abrahams: All right. So question number one, What's the best piece of communication advice you've ever received?

[00:18:09] Troy Campbell: Um, so the best piece of communication advice for me, it really was tailored well to me, uh, came from one of my advisors in graduate school, Dr. Peter Ubel, and let me set this up. So I gave my talk on my dissertation, and I went in and he sat me down and he said, "Troy, you're one of the most joyful people I've ever met. Your name even rhymes with joy. Uh, you sign your emails 'Enthusiastically, Troy,' every time, and your dissertation is literally about why people enjoy things." And for 20 minutes I never saw you smile once, right? And telling somebody to smile is not always the best advice, but for me it was. Like, part of why people like engaging with me is that I really love these things. I'm the behavioral scientist who worked at Disney Imagineering. People want that energy and that joy. I'm literally delivering them on science. And so it's great advice for me, but it's also, like, who you are and what you are delivering, when you can match that, it works really well. 

[00:19:16] Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so striving for congruence between how you feel about something and how you deliver are really important. And, and I'm glad you got that advice because you do, uh, radiate joy and excitement. Um, question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why? 

[00:19:31] Troy Campbell: So one person who I really, really like in that space is Bong Joon Ho. He is the director of the Oscar-winning film Parasite, and also other films like The Host and Snowpiercer, and he is so good at using direction. So in the movie Parasite, uh, if you've seen it, the rich people live on the hill and the poor people live literally down the hill and in the basement, and he uses that up and down constantly for storytelling purposes. In Snowpiercer, it's a movie that takes entirely place on a train, and so one direction is always the back of the train, one direction of frame is always the front of the train. It's a metaphor, but it's also spatial and it's so wonderful.

[00:20:14] And after watching a video essay by Every Frame a Painting on the movie Snowpiercer, I was just like, "I should just be using space for everything I do." And so I used to be a person who walked around on stage, but just to bring energy. Now I walk, and when I move between parts of my story I now am in a new position. I'll assign different parts of the stage. Sometimes when I'm being more avant-garde, it's like this is, this is the scientific mind part, and this is the artistic heart part, and this is just me in the middle, Troy, telling you how I actually feel, right? And just the ability to use space to tell story is amazing, and it's just so wonderful to watch movies 'cause I get new ideas all the time.

[00:20:54] Matt Abrahams: I like that idea of, of observing other forms of communication to teach you, uh, how to be better, but that use of space is really important because you're signaling and sending lots of information. Human beings are wired to pay attention to space, uh, and location, and doing that consciously I think adds a lot. And, and I really appreciate that you do a nice job of bringing science and art together. Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 

[00:21:22] Troy Campbell: Yeah, so, uh, since we've been talking about, a lot about storytelling, I'll do mine that's based on that. And it's cause, character, and change, right? And just those together is really simple. If you're like, "Oh, I need to make this data presentation more important," okay, what are my characters? What's causing them to act? What can we do to then change? If you're stumbling on just, like, a story about your own past, it's like, okay, what caused me to change my mind about something, right? And all of a sudden you have a story. It's just three little tiny bits of things that can do so much. 

[00:21:57] Matt Abrahams: Cause, character, change. You know I'm gonna love it 'cause it's alliterative. Interestingly I don't know that the order of that matters if you're trying to get it, uh, to initiate a story or move a story forward. But you need the three ingredients together. 

[00:22:08] Troy Campbell: Yeah. And our, so our brains can, our brains understand narrative causal structures, and they don't need to be told in order. And, uh, my friend James Antony does a lot of neuroscience research, and how he, he finds how people connect things and remember things and pair things in the brain based upon causal connections. So if you're watching something, you can watch, you know, a episode of Friends and they're, you put all your, "Okay, this character is in this plot, and I'm connecting it here, and I'm connecting these plots." Or you can watch an episode of, like, How I Met Your Mother that's often told out of order, but your brain can put that all together. Your brain is obsessed with understanding characters. It's a social, you're a social creature, and it processes things in logics. And so when you have characters in logical causations, you're just gonna reach the brain so well. 

[00:23:06] Matt Abrahams: So well put, as was everything that you shared. Troy, thank you for your time. Thank you for your insights, and thank you personally for impacting the way I communicate. 

[00:23:15] Troy Campbell: Awesome. Well, it has been great to be on this, and, uh, I love what you do here. I love that you also create some of the best type of content that we can deliver to our students, right? You can start a class with a clip from your podcast and really get a ton of information and get the students excited to engage in something.

[00:23:34] Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

[00:23:35] Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the Podcast. To learn more about creative ways to communicate, please listen to episode 156 with Scott Doorley. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With special thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community at fastersmarter.io/learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, my AI coach, and book club opportunities. Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast, Talk Smart Community.