Outlander as Public History: Dr. Alex Dold on Making History and Reading Accessible

Judy Oskam: 0:02

If you're a fan of Outlander, the historical fiction series set in Scotland, like I am, and you've ever found yourself wanting to know more about the history behind the story, well, this episode is for you. I'm Judy Oskam, and as a professor at Texas State University, I really believe that it's part of my job to explore, investigate, and follow questions wherever they lead. And that's really why I started my podcast, Stories of Change and Creativity. In this episode, you'll meet a scholar who shows how historical fiction like Outlander can help us connect with history in meaningful, accessible ways without needing a classroom or a degree. Dr. Alexandra Dold is a literary scholar and a historian. She's known as the Doctor of Outlander. Alex recently completed her PhD, where she examined the Outlander novels as a form of public history. She showed how historical fiction helps people connect with the past beyond textbooks and classrooms. You'll also learn about Alex's path to her academic career that took a sharp turn when she took a walk on the beach, and how since that walk the stars have aligned.

Dr. Alex Dold: 1:31

I've always really loved learning things - and I think I was probably a little bit of a nerd in school. And I had the opportunity right when I started high school in Germany to do a bilingual kind of studies system. And I had loads of subjects in English as well, as well as German. So I did, I think it was geography and history and maybe politics or something, all in English. So I had I really quickly learned a lot of English and I really loved all the languages. I ditched any scientific subjects as soon as I could because I realized that I love reading. That was like my big thing. And in my abitur, which is like the German graduation from high school, I had English and German history and biology because you had to have a scientific subject in there. And I already knew that this wasn't going to be my strongest subject. So I I had kind of like already identified what I loved doing, but then couldn't really probably, I was just being lazy after school, you know, like hanging out. And then I realized I'm almost missing university deadlines. So I very quickly signed up for English studies and German studies as a minor at the University of Bonn. Because I thought, you know, I've liked those subjects. Why not? Kind of let's do this. Um and then kind of just kept going with it, I guess. After the the bachelor's, everybody was saying, like, oh, with you know, a degree in arts and humanities, you you'll not get anywhere. You at least need need a master's. So I just went, like, I guess I'll just stick with this uni. I know everything. I can live at home with my parents, you know, save a little bit on money and everything. So I just kept going with the master's. And then I thought I should probably go abroad, right? For an English-speaking subject. I should go somewhere where people actually speak English as their everyday language. And I ended up going to Inverness College, which is part of the University of the Highlands and Islands in Scotland, and uh did three months, so one semester there. And weirdly enough, during that time, that was the first time that I felt like I'm actually enjoying what I'm studying. Like I have really broad knowledge about literature because I learned all of it, but for some reason, Shakespeare just didn't speak to me enough, or Jane Austen or something. Um, and I know now, kind of looking back throughout my entire life, it's always been historical fiction that really draws me in. Kind of but like it doesn't have to be time travel or anything, it just has to be history in an accessible way, I guess. I loved TV shows that included some sort of the past or yeah, for me, like anything I read, as soon as guns show up, that's where I bow out. Like that, I'm I'm not it has to be swords or something.

Judy Oskam: 4:07

Historical. Yeah.

Dr. Alex Dold: 4:09

Historical, yes, it has to be. Um, so after that semester abroad in Inverness, where I had a course on British identities, and one of the essays I wrote for this was about um how British identities are represented in kind of popular media. And I had just watched Outlander before coming to Inverness. My dad found it and was like, you know, you like history, you're going there, let's watch it. And it got very quickly, it got very uncomfortable with my dad because Outlander has some love-making scenes, I will call them. Yes. Um, so it it was a weird situation to kind of sit through it with your dad, but it was also great to kind of be introduced to the accents because we watched it in English with English subtitles. Um, and like I thought I was fully convinced I have a great knowledge of Scotland now. I didn't, because the accents in Inverness are nothing like the Outlander TV show, and it's it's it was very different, but it was also a great introduction. One of my flatmates in Inverness then told me he is in season three of Outlander, which was just coming out while I was in Scotland. So it's just kind of it became more and more important in my life. Um, my room even faced towards the battlefield of Culluddin. Oh my gosh. Like one of the big things. So I couldn't like see it, but it was like looking back, I realized how all these little pieces of the puzzle just kind of kept falling into place. And that essay that I wrote for the course, apart from getting a good mark, which made me happy, the lecturer afterwards kind of talked to me and said, you know, if you ever want to do a PhD on that topic, just let me know. And I remember so clearly, I like I went back to student accommodation and phoned my family in Germany and said, I think I might have to move to Scotland and do this PhD. And I hadn't even considered a PhD. It was just kind of a there's the opportunity now. Why don't I do it?

Judy Oskam: 5:59

The door was open, yes.

Dr. Alex Dold: 6:00

It was yes, exactly. And it was, it was just in my head. And I remember like leaving the plane the first time I went to Scotland when my foot touched the ground, it was this like eerie feeling of like this is where I need to be. It's never happened again, and it's it doesn't happen when I come back from Scotland, from Germany, visiting family. It's just it was that one moment, and again, that was another piece of the puzzle that it just felt right. And I'm not usually like, I'm not like a superstitious person or something, but that moment I remember it so clearly. I don't remember anything after that step, but it's just ingrained in my brain. It's like, I need to be in Scotland and I need to do this, I need to do the thing that I actually enjoy and not research something for kind of being academic just because it's considered a good academic idea or something. So I finished my master's um thesis, or I think in America you call it dissertation. Or no, sorry, master's dissertation is what we call it in the UK, and it's the other way around in England in the US, right? So I finished that at the University of Bonn in I think May 2019, and I moved to Scotland in September. So it was like it was so fast, and it never felt to me that I was immigrating or something. It just felt like I'm moving, as if I'm moving within Germany. It just, like I said, it just felt right. Um it came with two suitcases, nobody asked what I'm doing in the country because I have a European passport. At that point, Scotland or the UK was still part of the EU, so we could just move about freely and work wherever we wanted. Um, I found a little cottage in the Highlands, I started researching, and then the pandemic happened and it was all kind of it broke down. The the main thing, like I had planned to look at tourism because I was so interested in why are people reading and watching this show and then they want to come to Scotland, right? Um, and then I couldn't do that. And I was kind of I was really lost at that point. Why, like, why am I here? Is this the best idea? I had kind of had a very German mindset of um, I've already paid for the rent here, so I'll not leave the country and go back to Germany. How long can this pandemic be? Right. So I was quite naive going into it. So I was stuck in a foreign country, I didn't really had my, I hadn't made any friends. I basically only knew my supervisors, and I'm probably had like depressive episodes where I just stayed in bed, didn't know what to do. And then I went, weirdly enough, on a beach walk with one of my supervisors because they lived in the same area that I was in, um, and they had dogs that needed to be walked, and we were allowed one walk a day. So I met up with her on the beach, and I remember that neither one of us brought it brought any like notepad or a pen or anything. So we wrote the outline of the thesis into the beach, and I just took a picture of it. Oh my gosh. I think she was the first one to say, like, maybe it's public history that you're interested in, like how people are learning something. Because I had this argument with my dad all the time. He has a PhD in chemistry, and he was saying, you know, like arts and humanities is is like a difficult subject to get employed in anyway. Are you sure you want to be a doctor of outlander? That doesn't sound you know the best. You will not get teaching positions if you're that. And I remember like it got me so angry all the time. And I just wanted to say, Outlander is good. And I said that to my supervisor, and she was like, Well, there you go. That that's your theory for your thesis. And again, it was like it clicked into place, and from then on, I just kept writing and new ideas and everything. It was great.

Judy Oskam: 9:37

Well, and and so you you actually claim you are Dr. Outlander. Well, how did that happen?

Dr. Alex Dold: 9:46

It it wasn't necessarily my idea. So I I would always say in a professional context, it is a doctorate in history, right? And I'm very aware of that. And I always say that I'm a literary scholar first, and then the historian kind of became part of it because you can't do a PhD in both subjects at the same time. So I kind of had to have one, and I was registered with the Center for History, so it kind of made sense for it to be in history, but I am an expert on historical fiction, and that's what I want to do as well. Um, the Doctor of Outlander thing kind of happened in relation to marketing for the university. Um, because at some point we um I was told that Diana Gabaldon, the author of the Outlander novels, was gonna get an honorary doctorate in the same ceremony where I was given.

Judy Oskam: 10:33

Oh my gosh, that's another sign from the universe, right?

Dr. Alex Dold: 10:37

It's crazy, right? Especially because I had to get a year-long extension at some point in 2024 because I had some health issues. So if I hadn't done that, she wouldn't have been there. You know, like everything that happened kind of seems to have happened for a reason. And it was it was a great graduation. Um, there was only me and one other person on that day that were graduating with a PhD. So we were really like we were standing out, our roles were different. And then Diana Gabaldoan as well. And I'd I'd asked the the communications team of the university beforehand, like, if you need anything, let me know. I like I am an expert, just whatever. So they got in touch asking about like, could you proofread this public or this this like um how do you call it press release?

Judy Oskam: 11:23

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Alex Dold: 11:24

Um, and I was like, all right, there's multiple mistakes. There's this, this, and this. And then I had to fill out some things about me. Um, and I thought that it was quite important that it mentioned that I'm originally from Germany because it kind of gives me this like a little bit of a distanced view on what is happening in Scotland, but also living here kind of gives me the insight view. So it was kind of a good mix. Um, and then once that press release was out, unfortunately, on the same day, like literally at the same time, Stars, who's the um the channel that the platform, yes, yes, platform, yeah. So they published the release date for the final season of Outlander on the same date at the same time as we did. So we were kind of, you know, I was just like, oh no, like my big moment is just ruined now. Um, but it it wasn't. So the the article that was kind of written off of it, you can find it on like the BBC's news website. It's it's massive. And I didn't think that I would be ever on like a platform like that or something. Um, and then I'd I'd already decided that I wanted to do some sort of social media, um, kind of share my knowledge with the broader public in short clips so that because attention span is very short nowadays. I don't know how many people would necessarily sit down and read a book that I wrote if they don't know who I am and what I do. So I started doing it in September a little bit, just kind of throwing in some crumbs of my academic life. Um, working at Glasgow Uni is also great, like it's beautiful. So I've got lots of material that I can just post without having too much putting too much thought into it. So I asked the communications officer if we could maybe do a video with Diana Gabaldon, me, and someone from the university to also promote the uni. Um, because it's it's one of the youngest unis in Scotland, so they're not as well known. Um, and she was like, Yeah, yeah, sure, just let me know what you think. So I wrote like a tiny script, I brought my printed PhD thesis, and I brought Diana Gabaldon's first Outlander book. And um, the communications officer said to her, Would you be okay doing a video? It was Alex's idea, and it sounded very accusing in the moment. And I was like, hopefully she'll say yes. And she was very much open to it. So we had kind of like one take before everybody had to go on stage and stuff. And um, yeah, so the the video is basically she says, I'm Diana Gabaldon, and I wrote this book. And then I say, My name's Dr. Alexandra Dold, and I wrote a thesis about her books. And then Professor David Worthington from the uni walks down the stairs and has this big scroll um and kind of passes it over to us and says, and we're the University of the Highlands and Islands, and we're proud today to give both of them a doctorate. And this on on social media that's literally exploded. It's at this point, it has, I think, 1.5 million views across platforms. Um, and it's it's absolutely crazy how that happened.

Judy Oskam: 14:19

Well, and thus making your case for public scholarship and the need for getting the getting history into the hands of the public. And I'll tell you what, I am I am so aligned with this because, like you said about your dad, my mother, who's 94, she and I watched The Outlander and got so hooked. I had to buy stars because they changed platforms. So I'm waiting for the March release of the last season, right? But I mean, just the fact what that has ignited in me and my mother, uh, as far as a love for history. And, you know, Texas State University has a hub program in in at Queen Margaret University uh in Edinburgh and also in Inverness with some of our other programs. And so there definitely is a tie with our university in Scotland, but the stars just align. And then I saw your post online and I thought, oh my gosh, I've got to talk with this woman. She's a fellow professor. But talk a little bit about why it's important to connect the public with history in this manner, in this way.

Dr. Alex Dold: 15:34

Right. I think sometimes to me, academia feels a little bit like an ivory tower that you know, you if you don't get into at university or want to get into it, uh like once you finished high school, it feels like it's really hard to get back into it. Because obviously you've done loads of your like your life, you've just done a job, maybe you have a family that you take care of. So it's it's not something that many people go back and do once they've gone past maybe 30 or something. Um, and I have mad respect for everybody who does go back to uni and decides to learn about a subject that they're passionate about, but it's not accessible for everybody. Sure. And I think the way that this kind of happens is by people then getting very passionate in fandoms of historical fiction, for example, in the field of history. It's not just history though, like it can happen for literature. I'm sure, I'm sure it happens for the sciences in some sort of way, but like very specifically in terms of history, nobody's gonna go to a bookshop and buy a very academic book, apart from the fact that they're really expensive. You also usually don't find them in your local bookshop, right? You you have to find specialized places. So it's just not something you would, I don't know, just see and go, this is what I want to read. And I think that's where like Outlander does a massive contribution to that. I'm not saying, and I've never have, that Outlander is 100% accurate. That's something that like people ask me all the time, how accurate is it? And I have to say, like, this is not what I research. Like, you you obviously it's fiction. There must be something wrong with it. And there is the first books where Diana Gabaldon was researching without the internet because she wrote it in the late 80s, right? So from the US as well. So that there necessarily must be issues there, but it gets better. She finds really great people that do historical consulting, Gaelic consulting, and everything. And yeah, I think that people just they crave learning in a way, and that that's kind of what historical fiction can facilitate. And then kind of through that, also social media. I've just done a video about um Outlander and what it has in common with the television show that everybody's talking about right now, Heated Rivalry. And it it at first somebody commented and said something like one is an LGTBQ plus hockey romance about two men that start falling in love, and the other one is historical fiction about Scotland. How is this possibly the same? And I'm not saying that the stories are the same, but the feelings we get out of them are the same. It's you know, you you feel with the characters, you learn something about yourself, how you feel, how they feel, how maybe this relates to each other. There's very respectful relationships in both of these programs that kind of stress communication that show you maybe how you could improve yourself in relation to other people. And that's just one tiny opportunity you get from reading books in general or watching television shows. And yeah, I think that it's really maybe like universities should jump on that train and do outlander studies. I think that could be like a massive thing because outlander is not just history, you can do something about archaeology, you can relationships, like you said, communication. Yeah, yeah.

Judy Oskam: 19:10

So you could have a psychology professor come in and do a course on that, or you could do I don't know, uh well, science, even because the the the scientific, the time travel when Claire brings back the medical advances to a new community that is that is not even aware of certain things. I mean, that's fascinating.

Dr. Alex Dold: 19:32

Absolutely. I mean, we've had um one academic conference on Outlander. It took place at the University of Glasgow in 2023 in the summer, and it was the best conference I've ever been to, apart from the fact that there were so many specialties that came together and told each other about what they do and how it relates to Outlander. It was a very respectful kind of like relationship with other people. It was mostly what. Women, which is to be expected, but there were some male academics as well. And nobody ever said, you know, the typical sentences of not a question, more of a comment, and then kind of talk you down or something. It was all, you know, I loved what you said there. Could you specify this more? Or how can I adapt this to my life? And I think part of that is because it was open to the broad public to also buy tickets and attend. So there were some independent scholars that also spoke, but mostly I think it was academics that loved Outlander, but it had nothing to do with the actual specialty. But this was their one chance to come to Scotland and present on what they were actually passionate about. And then also get feedback from people that feel the same way as you and have probably not looked at it from the same perspective. When I submitted my paper proposal for the conference, I didn't know what my thesis was going to be about yet. I hadn't had that beach walk. It just was all kind of messed up in my head. So I decided I'm going to talk about what I know, and that's my mother tongue German. So I wrote a paper on the titles and how they get translated from English into German. And then also what changes depending on what kind of cover we see on the books. So lots of like color analysis, um what kind of symbolism and visuals.

Judy Oskam: 21:28

Well, and and that's what you published in that recent in your recent book. You're in a chapter in the book. I just read that on Kindle. So I read your article and read about how important it is to frame the language and the translation and all of that. And then I enjoyed about the visuals as well, and why it I mean, that was that was interesting. So so you've been able to kind of add to the literature, if you will, on this public discourse about about a TV program that just has taken light, right?

Dr. Alex Dold: 22:03

Yeah, I I think the the most like telling thing is that we're not sure yet where to find the book in the bookshops, like in what section. So I've gone and I've seen it in the city center uh branch of Waterstones, and they put it to film and TV reference. Someone else went to a different branch in Glasgow and they had it in history and nonfiction. So there's like clearly, depending on who is shelving those books, they have a clear idea. Obviously, Outlander, it has to be TV. I would argue, but it's about books as well. So it doesn't just fit into TV, it's also about Scottish history, but it's also not because there's so many specialties coming together. And I think that's a huge opportunity for selling this book because there will be someone who's interested in the representation of medicine and they will read the book, and there's I think three papers on that or three chapters, and maybe they will never read the rest, but they've learned something new by accessing it through Outlander. There's also Diana Gabaldone on the cover. So if you're a reader, um you will recognize her and possibly buy the book just because she's on the cover.

Judy Oskam: 23:19

Right.

Dr. Alex Dold: 23:19

Um, and we're using the term as well. The book is called Outlander and Scotland Touch Points and Signposts. So it's very clear what it is about. We don't have any sales numbers yet because it just came out in December. But it's from from the feedback that I've gotten online, it is it seems to be very popular with fans. It was published with a commercial publisher. So I'd be interested to see if there's a difference if it ever, if something ever gets published academically. And that's kind of where I'm struggling at the moment. I've had I've I've talked to a few publishers, um, some academic, some not, and I haven't decided yet what would be the best approach because I think that like academia is maybe not ready for outlander studies as a subject yet. And I think that the broader public would enjoy the book more at this point, but I also want to make a difference by you know introducing outlander studies as a possibility. So um, I need to find kind of the balance between it. And that's it, it it feels like I'm constantly standing between those two chairs. I don't feel 100% academic, right? But I also don't feel like like I'm a public historian only.

Judy Oskam: 24:29

Well, and again, this is this is what I love about becoming an academic is you get to create your own lane, you get to create your own focus. And I always like to tell new faculty find what you're passionate about, and then your research will last forever, and you're it will infuse your teaching and it will really ignite, but it is finding within all these institutions, right? That's the challenge. So definitely.

Dr. Alex Dold: 25:00

I mean, I would love to do a postdoc and now that I'm done. Right now, I've given myself a year to explore what I can do as a person with like no academic affiliation other than doing some tutoring on the side. So I would like to figure out where I fit. Do I fit into the fandom world? Do I fit into the academic world? Or can I possibly combine the two of them? I would love to do it 50-50. Like I would love to have a part-time position at a uni that kind of gives me financial stability. But at the same time, I really want to kind of meet the people that are passionate about books. And it I don't think I'll necessarily stick with just Outlander. I think that there's lots of ways of kind of connecting the knowledge that I have with things that people are interested in right now. Last week, the semester started here in Scotland and at Glasgow Uni, um, I had an introductory session on a course that is all about heroes through kind of the ages and cultures. And we started off talking about movies because the first block is all is going to be three movies that we discuss. And I used popular culture examples to ask students what you could analyze about this. Um, one was a screenshot or a still from the Twilight movie, where they put like a very weird kind of bluish filter over it. And then I compared it with Heated Rivalry because that is what those students are watching right now, right? This is like the thing they find interesting. And in that series, everything moves from being very dark to very light, depending on like how clear the relationship is between the characters. And the students got it immediately. Like I didn't have to continue asking them. It was because they were interested in it, right? It was their thing. If I had done the same with, I don't know, a black and white movie they had never heard of, they would have been a lot more reluctant to kind of tell their opinions. And then it led to great conversations. One of the students came up to me after class and said that they had like grown up in the in the village or town that they filmed Heated Rivalry in Canada. And it was like a weird coincidence. And then she said, I'm so looking forward to this class. It's already so much fun. And that's what I want. I want the students to engage. And if I can like pick them up by using popular culture references and then teach them about a 1938 movie, I'll do that. I really don't mind how they get there. And I think that's what my thesis does as well. It's not about like if people read about the romance of Jamie and Claire just for the romance, that's great for them, right? If people read it for the history, that's also great. You don't have to kind of force people to really see it the same way that you do. And literature just functions like that. What you've done in your life will connect you to what is happening in a story. And what what you personally have experienced will be different from what I have experienced. Um, it's it's like again, those puzzle pieces falling into place. And I'm a strong believer that books you don't like, you should read again at a different point in your life.

Judy Oskam: 28:07

Oh, that's a good point. Yes, right.

Dr. Alex Dold: 28:09

You have different experiences, and I think that once you've traveled to Scotland, you will also experience Outlander in a different way because you've been there, right? You have this personal connection. It works the same with ancestry. If you have Scottish ancestry, you're gonna see yourself in this as well.

Judy Oskam: 28:25

Well, let's let's kind of give us uh give some advice for people that want to after they've watched a program, whether it's in any program, doesn't have to be outlander. How can they then on their own take steps to educate themselves? You've touched on it a little bit, but can you give a couple of of um key pointers here?

Dr. Alex Dold: 28:48

Yeah. As much as I usually say to students, Wikipedia is not like a good source to use. It is not for academic essays. It is, however, to start learning about something. So if you end up, let's take Outlander as example, you're really interested about the Jacobite Rebellion now. Um and you find out that there wasn't just one, there were multiple that kind of built on it on each other. And 1945-46 was the last one. So you Google Jacobite Rebellion, you read the entire article. If you're then satisfied with it, that's great. You can Google other topics, but then um Google again is is just a good resource kind of to just start finding things. Um, Google Scholar is also great to find kind of more academic articles if you don't have any affiliation to universities, because not every text, as we both know, is freely accessible. Um one of the things I like to say to people is that if you don't understand an academic text, it might not be you, it might be the author's issue that the author has written right really complicatedly and it's not clear. So they may they maybe didn't write for the average outlander reader, they wrote for a very specialized audience. I think for now, obviously, I'm gonna say our own book is like a great place to do some more research into Outlander. And if it's a series that you like that you're really interested in and it's been popular for a while, there will be some sort of public research as well that you can find. Yeah. Um, I'd also recommend finding a book club or something because even if it's not the book that you've just read that you want to know more about, somebody will have other kind of access to literature and understand how it's um best understood. How you well, there's on book Instagram, there's a big kind of topic right now about how do you annotate? And it's obviously it's something that we as academics just do naturally. The things we find important, you annotate, but the average reader might just say, like, but what is important? And I think it's it's a great way of like learning to figure out what is important to you, what you actually want to learn about. So that it's not necessarily about facts, but it's about skills in life as well that you can take away from it.

Judy Oskam: 31:02

And I had a student uh who did her uh capstone project on uh book talk on TikTok. And her whole thing was about books and specific areas of interest for her on TikTok. So you could even dive into TikTok or social media, and what I find fascinating about everything we were talking about is media is at the core of all of this.

Dr. Alex Dold: 31:29

Yes, and it's you know, media allows us to connect all these dots, and it it also like social media then allows us to connect with people that have the same interest because I I understand how difficult it is. You don't just go up to your cashier in the supermarket and say, Have you read Outlander? Right. So you have to find those people, and I think the fascinating thing about Outlander fandom is that it's incredibly welcoming, it is almost like their own clan or their own family.

Judy Oskam: 31:58

That's a good way to put it, a clan, yes.

Dr. Alex Dold: 32:01

It it was like I had the great pleasure of being able to go to LandCon, which is an outlander uh convention. It took place in Edinburgh last year in September. And I'd like it was a Saturday, Sunday that it took part place. And on the Friday, I got the email that my corrections to my PhD had been accepted, and I can now officially use the title. So I was brand new as a doctor. I was still kind of thinking, but what am I doing at this convention here? Like, am I an imposter? I thought that goes away at some point, but the imposter pops up all the time, right? So some I talked to someone and then she was like, Oh my god, I'm gonna have to tell my friend. She walked up, walked away, came back, and then I chatted to those two lovely people for ages, and then the next person came up and it kind of just spread that there's there's someone who's does academic research, and it felt almost like I was validating their obsession, even though like obsession is quite a negative word, it's probably better to say passion because they have passion for the subject, and they were saying, Oh my god, you should have done a talk here. But it's it's a convention where you meet actors, so it's not as like deep going, but I'm gonna try and like get into a convention at some point and like give the people what they apparently want to kind of feel validated. Like I'm enjoying this, not because it's historical or because it's accurate, but because it starts these feelings in me. And I I find that absolutely fascinating.

Judy Oskam: 33:30

Yeah, and and I think why can't we have a conference that is more academic? Maybe that's the pop culture conference or something like that, where there's another venue. Um, but you know where LandCon is in the fall, it's right here in Austin, Texas.

Dr. Alex Dold: 33:45

I heard about those, yes.

Judy Oskam: 33:47

But I've I've already out of, I can't even buy a ticket, they're already sold out. So I don't know what I'm gonna do. It's so popular, but but I'm telling you, Alex, you really have helped me validate this for me as a fan, as a fairly new fan. I'm so sorry I missed the Edinburgh conference in 2023, but you really have helped me validate it. And I think I think your points are so well taken about find a book club, do your research on your own, create your own learning plan if you are a fan. And I think I think people now with access to the internet and social media, are there other tips you could offer? I mean, and again, connect with like-minded, form a group, whatever.

Dr. Alex Dold: 34:31

I think that probably public libraries are a place to start as well. So they will do workshops or have reading groups or something like that. Um, I do like workshops as well, and I'm um I'm doing a reading retreat. Well, not I'm not doing the retreat, I'm going as a speaker, and we're gonna explore. I can't tell you what yet because it's not been officially announced, but it's it's all about kind of like how we relate to characters and books. And I've come up with this like one and a half to two hours workshop that is both kind of academic. It has like this academic introduction, but nobody wants to go to a reading retreat in Scotland and hear me drone on about academic research for one and a half hours. You want to be involved, right? You need to kind of get people into it. So I've decided I'm gonna add like a creative element as well. And I'm really hoping that I'll get more opportunities like this to just share my love for books. And again, like romance novels, like Outlander, like Heated Rivalry, like all the kind of Emily Henry and Allie Hazel, what they're really big authors right now. And what we love about them is that we know what we're getting into them, right? So we know there's not going to be a tragic character death, and then we we're like left crying at the end of the book. Romances usually have a happy end. We know there will be some sort of romantic release between characters, um, even though like there are various tropes that play out in different ways, but we still have this like certainty. And today's world is very uncertain in where are we heading, what is happening. And that's, I think, and like people from the Heated Rivalry show say this right now as well. Like the makers, what we wanted to do was give people a feel-good show, and that's what it feels like. That's why it's successful. It feels authentic, it feels real. And Outlander has done this since the 1990s for people. But in the 90s, we obviously didn't have social media. I was barely born. Well, I wasn't even born when the first book came out. So I'm very late to the hype, but there are people that have been fans of this book series for over 30 years now. And if I now can come in and validate it for them even more, apart from the fact that they know they like it and they have probably found their friends through the fandom, like I want to be there for them and say, like, yes, as much as maybe universities universities haven't accepted outlander studies yet, as much as they would have maybe Tolkien studies or something. I think it will come because especially in Scotland, Outlander had a massive effect on Scotland in terms of tourism numbers, in terms of interest. And depending on where in the world the show is now released on streaming services, we will see an uprise from that those countries to Scotland. And it's like it's already happening. We can there's proof for it.

Judy Oskam: 37:26

I love it. And I'm a fan, and I'm a fan of yours as well. So I appreciate your you sharing sort of your vision of how to really connect us better with history through public discourse and public media and just media in general. I love that. Well, any last comments you you'd like to make to outlander fans like me who are trying to connect the dots and just learn more all the time about not only what you said, the Scotland, but also about the various subtexts throughout the program, like communication and and science and all of that. I think it's so valuable.

Dr. Alex Dold: 38:07

I think honestly, any kind of reading you do is educational reading because you will, it's not like you can tell your brain, don't learn anything from that. And if all you learn is to read faster, that's something learned as well, right? But I think that there's there's subtext in everything. And if you're now listening to this and thinking, what is the subtext of the book I'm reading just now? It's not necessarily clear in the moment while you're reading it. You might come back to it at some point and realize, you know, this is really interesting. And I've read about this before. And that's why I'm a big fan of rereading. So that you like sometimes you read a book in school and you hate it, but you might only hate it because someone made you read it. Sure. You know, like if there's a pressure to it. At university, I hated all the books that we read, but I've recently kind of I'm going back to them more and more and reading them with the perspective I have now. And I can see why I hated them at the time. I might not necessarily love them now because I'm a romance girly at heart. That's just the genre I like, historical fiction and romance. But yeah, I think for what I do for my students when we start a class, I always ask the question, who read the book? Because I think that's a really important thing to acknowledge. And they they're very kind of held back in the first few weeks, but by the end, they will like very um openly admit that I have not read the book or I only read half of it or something like that. And I think the conversation that comes from that is then why did you read half of it? Was it because you didn't enjoy it? What did you not enjoy it? So it's that kind of critical thinking that comes into it that we ask students to do in essays. And I think it's really important that they are able to verbalize this as well, because then they can say, I did not enjoy the book, but I enjoyed the style of writing, or I appreciate the point that was bringing brought. across, but it's not something I would want to read again, you know?

Judy Oskam: 40:03

Sure. Sure. I love that. Well, I thank you for for sharing some time with us and from across across the ocean. I appreciate your time and expertise. And I look forward to seeing you maybe in Scotland next summer.

Dr. Alex Dold: 40:16

That would be great. I mean I I'm very much booked out with lots of events and everything. But yes, I always love to to meet fellow fans and just exchange stories. And I love to hear how people found Outlander. Apparently you and I both discovered it with our parents. That's great. That's right.

Judy Oskam: 40:34

Isn't that crazy? It's just crazy.

Dr. Alex Dold: 40:35

Thank you another piece of the puzzle.

Judy Oskam: 40:37

Another piece of the puzzle, Dr. Alex Dold. Thank you so much. And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with a fellow Outlander fan, a reader, an educator, a professor, or anyone who believes that learning should feel meaningful and accessible. Thanks for listening to Stories of Change and Creativity. I'm Judy Oskam