April 6, 2023

Selected Podcasts: a Commentary

In this special edition of rHatchery.live, hosts Matt Perez and Jose Leal will be discussing cherry-picked segments and topics from recent interviews to delve into the Radical Purpose theme, and will be touching on aspects...

In this special edition of rHatchery.live, hosts Matt Perez and Jose Leal will be discussing cherry-picked segments and topics from recent interviews to delve into the Radical Purpose theme, and will be touching on aspects like how we built a system based on punishment and fear, why people needed to be forced to behave, why awareness is the first step in realizing the Fiat system and benevolent role models in a world of FIAT bosses.


Matt Perez (00:00):

Hi, my name is Matt Perez and I'm here with Jose…

Jose Leal (00:05):

Leal <laugh>.

Matt Perez (00:07):

And we didn't have a guest today, so we are going to do a recap of the shows that are most impressive. And we have a number of them. The first one, that we want to mention is Doug Kirkpatrick. He introduced us. He has been, he's been a mentor and angel to us, so I really appreciate his participation. And then we have four others. And we have I got to put my glasses on. We got Paul Allard from Impact Bindu Kalesan from Tury Health. And we have Lisa Gill from, I know her from Leadermorphosis, that's her podcast, which also part of a, a company in the UK in Sweden actually. So, then we'll talk about Flippa, a website we found very interesting. So, Jose, you want to say?

Jose Leal (01:16):

Yeah. I think this is going to be an interesting thing to explore because a lot of the conversations that we've been having with these interviews have been sort of asking their perspective on what's going on. And part of what we've been trying to do with these podcasts is how do we have conversations with folks that are already doing things and introduce the language of radical what, what is our language and how do we have these conversations? So this is, this is, these interviews for us are about learning and learning how to engage with folks about what we've been thinking about for the last three or four years, and the work that we're doing in, in the radical network and environment. So the thing that I'd like to do is translate these conversations that we've had into our language and start to explore a little bit about what that looks like for folks and for ourselves.

Matt Perez (02:19):

Good. So we, we'll start with Paul Allard, which at least to me it was confusing because the presentation is one of finance, you know, a finance person. And I thought, oh my God, this is not going to go anywhere. But it turns out that he's, he's servicing the financial industry. He's trying to help those people make the right decisions and he's got, and so the service that he offers is one of giving them data to help them decide who's really doing it well, who's doing, doing it wrong for a planet, and make a decision based on that. And that was very refreshing. It was also style and, and things like that was also we liked it.

Matt Perez (03:16):

Yeah, I liked it a lot personally. I thought he opened up my mind because we've been so focused on how people are changing the way organizations organize, right? And he's going from the outside in. He's like, let's, let's build ecosystem types of changes in this case impact analysis that really reflect what, what he sees as how we can change organizations from the outside in. Yeah. Now we're going to try something here because we haven't done this before, so this is, might get a little messy, but we're going to try interjecting some of these clips from our conversations with these folks and see if we can do this smoothly enough so it it's not too messy. And have these clips really sort of bring us to the, to that interview so we can have a discussion about it. Carl

Jose Leal (04:23):

Admission and impact ratings are there to provide the financial sector, which has the power to redirect capital towards those organizations that are in transformation and are generating positive impact. But to do so, to take a better decision, they need to have clarity on who's doing what.

Matt Perez (04:52):

I think it, he…

Paul Allard(04:53):

“…Meant providing them with is an impact statement based on the best consensual open-source standard in the world called the Impact Management Project for them to take better decisions…”

Matt Perez (05:09):

Okay, it was messy, <laugh>

Jose Leal (05:11):


Matt Perez (05:12):

But it got, it got the, the energy and the passion through. And you know, you catch that first, that's what your body responds to first. And but he was saying a very important thing, which is we be focused on the inside of the company and the per… and the inside of the person and stuff like that. So we, we've been focusing on, on the insides, he's focused on the outside. He's saying that there may be people out there that want to do the right thing, but to know how, and he's, he's putting the, the pieces in place. He's got some of the pieces in place like the impact project to help those people make the right decisions and, and by right means, right by the planet, not just right because I say so right by the planet.

Matt Perez (06:04):

So, yeah, I, I like the work that he is doing on the impact state, the, you know, the, the impact analysis that is much more rigid than I think it, I think we missed the, the piece where he says you know greenwashing yeah. And all that

Matt Perez (06:24):

And all that

Jose Leal (06:25):

<Laugh> and all that. And, so for me, it's putting meat on the bones of the idea that we should have impact statements from companies and that those impact statements should be legitimate and not just promotional bs that they use to, to, you know, in the PR space and in the marketing space. I think there's, you know, there's a real marriage between the work that he's doing and the work that we're doing because the language that, that they're using, that, that Paul is using and that space is using, in essence, is the language that we're using internally within organizations, except that they're looking out and we're looking in, right? And so that, that aspect, I think is a really interesting thing. So, I think that Paul's work may not recognize, he may not recognize it, and we certainly didn't initially Yes.

Jose Leal (07:30):

That we're really doing the same thing. But it is that we are in a different space, and that's an important part of this. There is no way that any of us are going to make this change towards radical organizations or whatever you want to call them that it isn't done in all of these areas, right? It's not going to happen just from one place. It's got to happen in a lot of places. And Paul shows us, hey, I'm doing it from the outside in and, and this is bringing those pieces together is really going to be helpful.

Matt Perez (08:06):

Yeah. I think the two are, are complement each other in quite a good way. Because the reality is, look, we live in a fear world. We've grown in the fear world. We live in a fearful world, and we're not going to get away from that. This is the reality. The important thing is to recognize the FIAT world that we are in this we're like fishing water, right? And we see the shadows, you know, people walking on earth, or you know, animals, air-free, air-breathing animals on earth. And but we're, we're in water and we don't recognize water. It's like, what? Water, just goes up and down. Then I live and I have kids and, and they eat me and I eat other people and other fish. But what water?

Jose Leal (09:00):


Matt Perez (09:00):

You don't see that. And that stage that we're in, and what he is doing is for the people who, who are in that space to show 'em ways to do things that are more like, you know, are more of a marriage, if you will, to the, to the non-inferior world, to an alternative, which they're going to be many, but, you know if we use radical as a template then that'll be good because that, that'll give them the option to gravitate towards us. Just an option. Yeah. And we'll see. Yeah. Yeah.

Jose Leal (09:43):

I think one thing that we should do here because you, you introduced FIAT, and that's a, that's a lang we had, we introduced FIAT in a couple of conversations, but we've never really sort of dug deep into it. So maybe I, I can open the door on that, or you've opened the door. Maybe I can open walk through the door. So you're talking about FIAT, obviously, we're familiar with the term FIAT in the, in as it comes to money, that it is FIAT currency, which is means that somebody says it's worth something because I say so. And <laugh>, it, it's no longer tied to real tangible thing, right? Right. It's, it's not like oh there's a dollar and there's a dollar of gold sitting at Fort Knox. It's, it's just, there's a dollar and it's worth something.

Jose Leal (10:39):

And I'm telling you it's worth something. So, so that's the, the, the idea, FIAT in the case of, of the way we describe business in general, our world, in general, is not from this lens of saying, well you know, there, there's this you know, capitalist way of looking at things and this communist way of looking at things and this other way of looking at something. But to say that all of those things are operating within this FIAT world. Yeah. It's, it, whether it's capitalism or anything else, it's operating inside of a world where someone is dictating that the system is this way and it must be this way. And we're all operating inside that system.

Matt Perez (11:32):

And it's the only way,

Jose Leal (11:33):

And it's the only way. And so what you described the water is really you're describing this mindset that we all have this worldview that we all have that says businesses and, and economy the economy as a whole is this thing where we've dictated that business is about making money, not about people. We've dictated that it's about competition, not about collaboration. We've dictated that it's about creating higher keys of structures where each structure, structure, not hierarchies of, of people, but hierarchies of structure, where each structure dictates to the structure below it. So we've got a federal government that dictates to departments, departments that dictate laws to us and to organizations and organizations that dictate to the people within the organization. That's what you're describing as our FIAT system.

Matt Perez (12:43):

Yeah. I was surprised when we were researching, researching the book, that book, well, this book <laugh> this book. Well, I was really close. And that there was no way to referring to that. There was no, no name for it. So we just made it up. We said FIAT. And I got, we got good feedback from a couple of people and we said, okay, Sophia, this, but it could be Fs, but spelled backward, we have to recognize that we live in this body of water, this body of mindset that we live in and we cannot escape. So like you said, the capitalists and the communists in one case you know, the bosses have the last word. No, no. The workers have the last word. It doesn't matter. Somebody has the last word. And that's the problem. That's not helping us people in any particular way.

Matt Perez (13:48):

It's helping a few of us be very rich and very wealthy and all this stuff, but not humanity is not helping humanity. We're struggling with pollution and, you know, all the, all the climate change and all the rest of it. And we have to go begging these companies to let governments do the right thing, right? To let governments regulate them to the right things. But it is, is it's all based on, well, I got more capital and you so screw you. I do a FIAT, I declare this, to me this way and that way. And that's why it's going so solely. If people were in charge, my, okay, our theory is that if people were in charge, they wouldn't drop garbage in their rear stream that they'd drink from, because that's where they drink from, and they know that they don't want to drink crap. And so the, the, the whole climate change thing wouldn't have, would've been taken care of a long time ago, not in, in a unified way, but in enough pockets that things were taken shape a lot better, and we wouldn't be right at the essence we are now.

Jose Leal (15:19):

And I think I'm hearing people that are listening to us say, well, that sounds like some ideological

Matt Perez (15:28):


Jose Leal (15:29):

A utopian world that would happen. And we won't get into that today because we will want to talk more deeply about what we mean about how people do that. But the conversation around just understanding this FIAT thing, I, I think is a really important one. And what I think Paul did for us was saying, Hy, I see the FIAT thing, and with, without using the terminology, it doesn't matter, but I see the water that you're talking about. Yeah. And what I'm realizing is you know, from Paul's perspective, what I'm realizing is that there's a way that we can use the system as it works to put some reality in there that causes people to start to behave differently, to govern their organizations differently, to report differently, and to be to be different. So I think, I think that's about it for Paul. I think that was a good exercise.

Matt Perez (16:38):

Yeah. And that's a concern most of the time. So let's go to Bindu, she's the founder. She's also CEO, but she refers to the founder, which I found very refreshing of Tury Health, right?

Jose Leal (16:53):

Tury, Tury Health,

Matt Perez (16:55):


Jose Leal (16:56):

Turret, u r y.

Matt Perez (16:58):

Okay. Whatever Jose said, it's right. <Laugh>. And she also, we had a great conversation with her and she was talking radical, even though she didn't know that. So we’re playing the clip…

Bindu Kalesan (17:16):

“…And used in abused so much that, you know, patient-centricity means, oh, you know, this big behemoth of our healthcare system, it is nowhere patient-centric, but we Oh, how do we make it patient-centric? We can't just make it patient-centric. It's not like, you know, cover yourself up with a blanket…”

Jose Leal (17:37):

Patient. You mean we can't just put patient-centered on the front of our hospital website and that does it <laugh>? Is that not the way it works? I thought that was the way it works.

Matt Perez (17:46):

That's the way it works. But

Bindu Kalesan (17:48):

That’s t

Matt Perez (17:49):

Is working right now,

Jose Leal (17:50):

Right. Or not working.

Matt Perez (17:52):


Jose Leal (17:55):

That was, that was a perfect edit there. Carlos, thank you.

Matt Perez (17:59):

Yeah, that went a lot better. So go ahead, Jose. You, in fact, your voice was the last one. Yeah. <laugh>.

Jose Leal (18:08):

So, well, I well, the things that stick out to me was that, that Bindu said, and I've heard this before, but it really resonated for me. It's, it's, we have a sick care system, not a healthcare system. Yes. and, and, and that sick care system is regulated by three parties. It's regulated by a financially based pharma, financially based hospital, and financially based insurance system, three major systems, all of which the goal is profit.

Matt Perez (19:00):


Jose Leal (19:00):

And in the middle between those three parties are both patients. And we forget not just the patient, but also the providers are, they're also stuck in that world. And the systems, the FIAT systems, those three FIAT systems, we were just talking about, the big system of FIAT, each of those is its own little fiefdom of FIAT. Each of them operating to try, I mean, the people in there are not bad people, right? They're just following, following the water, right? Doing the system the way that they know how to do the system. Right. And so, for, for me, her explanation of that really brought some light to me understanding why is it that it's so screwed up? Well, it's screwed up because these three parties are tug doing a tug of war, an economic tug of war, right? And the people in the middle that are getting squeezed are, are both the providers and the, and the patients. And to me, that was sort of, wow, okay. You're, you've just described radical as to her view, which is it. We have to go back to the patient.

Matt Perez (20:32):


Jose Leal (20:32):

We have to go back to the patient.

Matt Perez (20:35):

Well, and the, and the both types of people in involved the patient and the docs. Once upon a time when I was younger and had hair coming out of the top of my head docs were very much in charge of hospitals. They were very much in charge of hospitals. They weren't, you know, different radiologists and cardiologists and this and that, but still, they, they saw patients and they were in charge of hospitals and they wanted to make money. The, don't, don't get this wrong. But that's changed. And the people that come out of school now go to go to work for practice or go to work for a hospital for a while, and then they start their own practice. And all they've learned is, well, money's the most important thing. I have to make money. I have to make money. And I'm blessed with a doctor that doesn't care about that anymore.

Matt Perez (21:33):

But the doctor happens to be 70 years old. So, you know, he is gone through a whole arc, and now it is way years. He's saying, you know what, this money chasing thing doesn't make sense. And so, but that's lucky me, you know? Right. The, the, if I go to any other doctor, any other specialist, the first thing is what's your insurance? What's your backup insurance? What's your triple backup insurance? And if you don't have any type, oh, sorry. We don't take people without insurance or we take people with Medicare wouldn't take people with their kind of insurance or, because it's all about the profit. It's the only thing you don't how to measure.

Jose Leal (22:20):

Well, it's a system where we have the FIAT system that is really saying people's lives are represented by money.

Matt Perez (22:33):


Jose Leal (22:34):

That's it. So how much does it cost to do that thing? Well, the insurance company thinks it costs too much. So can we get approvals for things? Right? I go to the doctor, and the doctor says, I think you need to get a test on your heart, but the insurance company's going to say no. So, I'm going to have to find a way to make it so that they'll approve that test.

Matt Perez (23:01):


Jose Leal (23:02):

Right. So right away, my doctor's thinking about money rather than my health. How do I get it approved? How do I get the insurance company to accept this? Right.

Matt Perez (23:13):

But he's not thinking about money, but he's thinking about all the bureaucracy That's exactly what brings up the, to protect the moneymaking machinery. And there's nothing wrong with money. Okay? Don't, don't get out of this that, oh, these guys are cameras. And

Jose Leal (23:29):


Matt Perez (23:31):

There's nothing wrong with money, but there's something wrong with the only measure of success is money. So in, in insurance, they count lives because as you said, each life has a price, and they can say, oh, a hundred thousand lives at 3050 cents, at 350 million, you know, whatever the story is. And that's the only metric they have. Not wellness, not…

Jose Leal (24:05):

Quality of life, not impact. Yeah.

Matt Perez (24:08):

If somebody, I was reading about preventive medicine in, from the point of view of an individual, you know, knowing what the individual needs we're at the point now we can, we can measure the wellness of each individual. Okay. That's going to take forever to get into a system.

Jose Leal (24:29):


Matt Perez (24:30):

If, if we can get in all, and what, what we can get in is whatever makes money, the person doesn't make money well, the churches are going to take care of that. Or the

Jose Leal (24:42):

Community organization community,

Matt Perez (24:45):

Yeah. Nonprofits, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or at one level, at the other level the people who can pay for that on their own. Okay.

Jose Leal (24:56):

And, and just to get back to Bindu, because the other thing, that she's doing with Tury, I'm not sure how she pronounces it but she's saying we want to work with patients in order to be able to do clinical studies.

Matt Perez (25:13):


Jose Leal (25:14):

From the patient's perspective, what the patients need, and how they can engage. And she's identified that what we have is, is a system where, again, back to money, it costs, I think she said $6,500 to get a person to participate in a clinical study. And that the average clinical study costs something like $30 million.

Matt Perez (25:39):

30 million

Jose Leal (25:43):

Exactly. So how do you build a system, a system of human-based clinical studies, rather than pharma-based clinical studies that are there to say, oh, we want to do a clinical study? Now let's go find people, rather than saying, Hey, here's a whole bunch of people that are dealing with health issues of one kind or another. Is there a clinical study that could serve them? Is there a clinical study that gets involved in and does it across genders, do it across races? Do you know, that's her, that's the role that she wants to play. And I think that's a beautiful example of what radical is.

Matt Perez (26:31):

And it's cheaper.

Jose Leal (26:32):

And it's cheaper. She said like 90% cheaper,

Matt Perez (26:36):

She said, yeah. For a 10th of the price. And so what happens is, is it is inertia, you know, we've been doing it this way. We heard the studies from, docs, that's the way they did the study. And of course, they did study at a university. So, we're going to do studies at universities, and like it or not, most universities tend to be majority white and majority all that stuff. And so there's a lot of drugs. Another thing that you mentioned is that there are a lot of drugs on the street. The majority of drugs on the street we know what the side effects are for European-type phenotypes. We don't know what they are for India, which is a big part of China, for, you know, because…

Jose Leal (27:34):


Matt Perez (27:35):

Africa, not a conspiracy or anything, but we just don't include those people because they happen not to be a university unless, you know, you look at Berkeley and stuff like that. But

Jose Leal (27:46):

Well, I think it's a little less that they're not at universities, it's more that the system caters more to mainstream health, and those people aren't part of the mainstream health. She pointed out that, you know, the black population in the United States, they're distrusting of ideas of let's do some testing, we'll test on you. Right. And so that there's a, there's a gap between those communities Yeah. And the mainstream health system, and the ones that are more approached overall. I think that my lesson there is, wow, there are people that understand that we need to work from a radical way, from a human-based radical way and aren't thinking about what we've been working on, you know, the FIAT and the radical and, and purpose and force and all those other things that we've, we've been playing with, but they get it intuitively get it correct. And, she certainly got it bind. Absolutely. Absolutely. Got it.

Matt Perez (28:58):

She certainly got it. But it is very difficult to hold down to that mindset and that view and, and all that, unless you are clear on what distinctions are. So that's what we're bringing in that book, that book, that book, that book <laugh> that's what we're bringing forward. The idea is that there is a system that we live in that is not good results in a lot of ways, but we need alternative systems because that system has set good results. It has the best results for a hundred people or 67 people where the number is at the very top, the majority that means in all of humanity for, you know, anything but its physical error. All humanity's not getting, the benefits at large. Right. So, you know, then, there's people are very top the people below that still very well and stuff like that, but the majority of people are not participating in the wealth that we create. So we need to have a system that lets people participate in the wealth that we create without taking anything from anybody. So [inaudible] and, and must, okay. He gets to keep all his money too and stuff like that, <laugh>, but…

Matt Perez (30:30):

But the rest of the wealth that we create at some point has to be more equally distributed amongst everybody else. And I don't mean equally. Yeah. Because that brings specs of comments and, and stuff like that. Yeah. it brings, it is more based on their contributions. People contribute more, they get more to contribute less.

Jose Leal (30:54):

Yeah. I, I, I like, one of the things that we came up with when we were initially doing our research for the book and, and having discussions for the book and, and that was, there is nothing wrong with capitalism conceptually. Yeah. There's only one thing wrong with capitalism. It's not distributed enough. Right. So everybody should be a capitalist. It shouldn't be that the 1% are capitalists and the rest are me, are participating in that capitalist system, but are not benefiting from capitalism as right.

Matt Perez (31:36):

Right. And, the basis of capitalism is ownership. So the whole concept of ownership, which a lot of people say, oh, that's bad. No, it's, it's, it's a human invention. It's like having bathrooms inside the house. It's a human invention. The thing is that's been very effective to the owners based on capital and we're proposing that it be decentralized based on contributions. So if you contribute more, you should get more. If you contribute, if you, if you sit around and do nothing, then Okay, that's, you're telling me what you want to do here.

Jose Leal (32:20):

So we, we've got…

Matt Perez (32:22):

The transition is important.

Jose Leal (32:24):

I think we're going to dig deeper into that in future conversations, but we've got one more you mentioned at the beginning Lisa Gill.

Matt Perez (32:34):

Lisa Gill…

Jose Leal (32:34):

Yeah. We've got Lisa Gill coming. I was going to say that. We have time. We have time. But I, I was, you, you mentioned Doug Kirkpatrick at the beginning. And another person that I think has been fundamental in helping us sort of understand this space as we've been moving has, has been Lisa Yeah. Through a lot of the work that she's done and the, and the network that she has. And our conversation with Lisa, I thought was really cool. And so Lisa's been sort of working on some things. Do you, did you want to No, go ahead. Go ahead. Describe that. Okay. So one of the things I love about Lisa is that she's been in this game probably as long as anybody else. And yet she's, a young person. She's not as old as we are. Certainly not as old as you are, but she, she doesn't have a beard.

Jose Leal (33:25):

Yeah, she doesn't have a beard. But, she is probably the most pragmatic person I, know in this, in this space sheet. She really isn't about ideology, and she just keeps refining, her way of describing things and her way of doing things. And her latest book with her colleagues Moosehead on the Table, I thought was, was a really good example of, hey, we, we've got, we've got a conversation to have. And part of the conversation we need to have is to bring all of the reality to it. This isn't about you know, some ideology, you can say this, but you can't say that you can do this, but you can't do that. No. Screw all that. We've got to bring it all. And this I guess it's a Scandinavian saying of, of the moose head on the table sort of the, the elephant in the room we might use here, the elephant in the room for us Yeah. That we might use here in North America. She, she, she's bringing that to the table, and she brings something else. So why don't we ask Carlos to go ahead and play that, and then we can talk about that?

Jose Leal (34:53):

I don't hear anything. Yeah. I, I'm not hearing it. Carlos, can we try, try that again? Still not hearing it, Carlos.

Jose Leal (35:14):

So why don't we give up on that? Yeah, let's give up on that. It's, it's obviously not working for some reason. We're, we're not getting the audio, but basically, I think the clip there is Lisa talking about hierarchy and, and what is hierarchy and, and, you know, for, there's a dogma within the sort of teal universe and the, you know future of work universe and all of this stuff that's like no hierarchy, absolutely no hierarchy. And Lisa points out, there's hierarchy everywhere. Everything has a hierarchy. Our families have a hierarchy. Our culture has a hierarchy. Our environment has a hierarchy. It is a very…

Matt Perez (36:00):

I mean, right now, you are the, you I'm at the top of the hierarchy that I'm talking. Right? And in a minute, you're going to start talking again. Then you're at the top of the hierarchy. So the hierarchy is when there's more than one person in the room is what happens. It…

Jose Leal (36:15):

Exists, it exists, and it exists for different reasons, right? I, I happen to be good at something and you give me way for that, and you happen to be good at something else. And I give you way for that. And, and we do all of those things. And, that's just sort of a normal aspect of relationships. What's wrong with hierarchy is, in our words, and I think Lisa pointed it out in a slightly different way, what's wrong with hierarchy is when it's imposed, right? It's, it's this person who has the final word no matter what because they have the final word. That's, that's who it is, the boss. And so he's the boss, he's, the CEO, he is the owner, he's the investor whatever the case may be. And, so Lisa says, no, it's not, it's not black and white, right? There's, there's a hierarchy, and some hierarchy is good, some hierarchy is natural, and then there's this thing where it's imposed. And so we'd call that a FIAT hierarchy, correct? A hierarchy that's imposed both externally to organizations and then internally within organizations.

Matt Perez (37:37):

In, interestingly enough, there, there was no, there is no term for it. Like even Lisa was talking about, she, she calls it the hierarchy dynamics as opposed to the hierarchy, because so is hierarchy, but hierarchy dynamics. And I think it's simpler to just target and we, we tagged it with he because is an important distinction. Yeah. A super important distinction.

Jose Leal (38:12):

And just, just to play off that a little bit, and we got to run here, but what, what Lisa's really doing and the work that her colleagues are doing is how do we learn to not play that game anymore? Yeah. How do we learn to communicate with each other from the place of just spilling all the beans, just letting it all out. Let's be transparent with each other, which is another thing that we keep talking about. Transparency is the only way that we're going to actually be able to operate in this new world mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, is if we, if we give up FIAT, we need something new to take, to makeup, there's no way we can just keep hiding all our and expect that it's going to work.

Matt Perez (39:12):

It says.

Jose Leal (39:13):

Sorry, I didn't mean to say. Will you stop saying it? So, so basically the idea is, hey, let's have conversations where we bring all of our true selves, full selves to the equation. And when we do that, if these natural hierarchies emerge, because when I share with you that I love to do this thing, it's, I'm really passionate about it, and I'm really, I've done it all my life and I want it. Okay. That's, that's what it is. And you do the same thing about something else. Okay? That's what it is. Let's not presuppose that, because whatever you have, that role to fill because it's been assigned to you, and we then have to order you for that reason.

Matt Perez (40:07):

That's right.

Jose Leal (40:08):

I thought that was a, a great conversation with Lisa and I Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to.

Matt Perez (40:13):

She's been consistent over, over the years. I've been I did a podcast a long time ago, and, and somebody from a company that I was in did, and she's been very consistent. Very consistent. She's, she's talked to brand people name people and stuff like that, and she keeps, you know, it's just pushing for the same thing very gently, very in a very British kind of way, <laugh>. But she's very consistent.

Jose Leal (40:48):

Yeah. Yeah. She's a sweet, sweet, sweet woman. And I, I, I loved the fact that we got an opportunity to talk to her and that we could learn from how she's framing some of this because I think her framing is, is an important piece of it. That's, that's our, I think those are the folks we wanted to talk about today.

Matt Perez (41:09):

Yeah. I want to mention one more. We talked to the CEO of Flippa, his name is Blake Hutchison.

Jose Leal (41:19):

Hutchison, Hutchinson. Yeah.

Matt Perez (41:21):

And to be honest, when we talked, when we talked to him, I was kind of like, okay, I get it. No, I don't get it. And then we, then went and did some research. It is dang, but so go to flippa.com and look it up is a trade thing for online properties that people want to sell. So, I built, I do a podcast, I build it up to many views a year, and stuff like that. It's important in a certain way. So, if you want to start okay. If you want to start from that point on, you can buy my property and continue adding to it. And I thought that was really exciting because it allows, it takes some of the risks away from what people want to do. I mean, people do know that entrepreneur, I mean, we lived in, in the middle of Silicon Valley, so it's easier to say, but there's a sense that entrepreneurship is what creates wealth, right? But it's a lot of risk. You got to raise a lot of money and unicorns and, and all kinds of things. And this way is more of an organic kind of way. And flip out is braces the bar braces, the ground floor,

Jose Leal (42:50):

The starting board. Yeah. I, I, I wasn't party at that conversation, so I didn't benefit from speaking to Blake directly. But what, what I've gathered from, from it since in the, the QuickTime that I was looking at the site as you guys were doing the research I found that there's this understanding that I can think of it as a distributed or, or a decentralized way of starting a, a, a new business because yes, I can pick up two or three properties and, and start to do something different, some something unique and not have to start at, at ground zero, right? Right. So, that seemed like an interesting thing. And in part, I think that's going to be how many people are engaged in multiple properties, doing multiple types of businesses, doing different kinds of things.

Jose Leal (43:55):

So, we're not going to be you know, pigeonholed into one career, or pigeonholed into only doing one thing. So, I could be part of something that is part of what I'm passionate about, right? And do that as part of a side hustle as they call it today, right? But I think really what's going to be, everybody's just going to have a whole bunch of side hustles and no, no main hustle necessarily, right? So I think that's a really cool thing to explore and understand. And I think that that's really what Blake's kind of playing with is that, that space.

Matt Perez (44:39):

Yeah. The only thing to keep in mind is that you have to buy the property and with capital, you know, it doesn't come out of nowhere. So there's that, that issue of having some capital, but…


Matt PerezProfile Photo

Matt Perez

Co-author of the book "Radical Companies - Without Bosses or Employees

Matt has been building hardware and software products for over 30 years. He has helped raise close to $50M in VC investments as a co-founder of three start-ups. Matt co-founded Nearsoft, Inc, a successful software development company that helps its clients grow their software development teams with engineers in Mexico. Nearsoft brings together dedicated teams of developers, manual testers, and UX/UI specialists to work directly with clients as members of their core product development team.

After working in traditional hierarchical, fear-based organizations for many years, Matt got a chance to experiment with workplace freedom and self-management at Nearsoft. The experiment is going well and Nearsoft is very successful thanks to its strong culture. Fixed, pre-imposed hierarchies are a thing of the past. The future belongs to people working together in dynamic, adaptive, self-managed organizations. My goal is to make that future happen sooner than later.

Jose LealProfile Photo

Jose Leal

Co-author of the book "Radical Companies - Without Bosses or Employees"

Jose Leal is a co-founder of the Radical, a movement focused on the intersection of human interdependence and social structures. An innovator, he started an architectural drafting business at the age of 16. In the mid-nineties, Jose co-founded his third company, Autonet.ca, Canada’s first online automotive media company. After a conglomerate acquired Autonet, he inadvertently became Vice President of their online media division. Jose left the after realizing he had become everything he hated. Two failed startups later, he left the industry altogether.

For five years, Jose dedicated himself to understanding why he had become the person he was in corporate life. Thanks to the years of psychology and neuroscience research through the lens of living systems, he developed the Interdependence Framework. Through this work, he connected with the globally emerging Future of Work community and helped co-found the Radical movement.