From ME to WE: Rachel Kan's Vision for Sustainable Collaboration | Radical Conversations

Jose Leal (00:00):

Well, hello there and welcome to Radical World, the podcast. And today we've got Rachel Kan, Rachel, Sheila Kan, the someone that I have known for what, going on three, four years maybe by now?

Rachel Sheila Kan (00:24):

Yeah, I think so.

Jose Leal (00:26):

And I have lived vicariously through this young lady. She is doing so much wonderful work and her community, and she's going to tell us a little bit about that. Rachel, welcome.

Rachel Sheila Kan (00:41):

Thank you having me, Jose. Amazing.

Jose Leal (00:43):

Absolutely. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Just who are you?

Rachel Sheila Kan (00:49):

Wow. I mean, how long have you got

Jose Leal (00:52):

It's only a 30 minute thing, so, you know.

Rachel Sheila Kan (00:55):

Exactly. I'll keep it, keep it brief. Yeah, I guess I'm Rachel Sheila Kan. I'm a ecosystem architect and a circularity specialist, particularly in the fashion industry. I'm also a mother and a yeah, I guess a thought leader in a way. I've been in the fashion industry for a couple of decades and then moved into sustainability, search clarity, and then into regenerative futures over the past eight years. So feels like a long time now.

Jose Leal (01:31):

It's been a long time. And, and can I add to that list?

Rachel Sheila Kan (01:35):

Yeah, of course.

Jose Leal (01:37):

Ted talk speaker.

Rachel Sheila Kan (01:39):

Ted talk Speaker. Yeah. Just that small part.

Jose Leal (01:44):

Yeah. That's, that's awesome. I loved it. Thank you for sharing that with the community and, and the work that you've done. So I told you a, a little bit about what we're trying to do with the radical world, which is to, to share with the world this radical view that that there is a way for human beings to be different. And as long as we can appreciate that human beings aren't what we think they are. And and I think I wanted to, to start with that, because as you've started to explore with your broader community, this idea that they can be different and do different and work different yeah. And collaborate different, right? So, so

Rachel Sheila Kan (02:38):

Just collaboration is radical sometimes, right? Like Exactly. You've been very used to being like, this is my done space, and that is your done space in terms of like a business and individual, a community, whatever. And that it very rarely do we come out and say, well, how can we create, like win-win situations together? How could we create something larger than oneself, you know, or one's company? So I think it's the collaboration itself is that sort of radical piece moving from, as I say, always like a place of, from me to what can we do? What can we be, how can we co-create, you know, and that's been radical for a lot of people, but also a really fun journey, you know? With our incubator collaborators.

Jose Leal (03:27):

And, and what do you like when you see, when you talk to these folks for the first time? What's, what, what's their stance around what you're saying and how they react to it? Like,

Rachel Sheila Kan (03:41):

It really depends on who they are really. Some businesses come and, and, and are like slightly worried about, say, IP and things like that because it not used to kind of sharing resources or supply chains or or even just sort of, you know, radically coming together like that. So some of it's a bit of fear, if I'm honest. But then there are like really great people as well who've, who've been used to collaborating before and then are collaborating now in whole other ways. So work with people who've got sort of regenerative growing networks in India. And, and when Khaw particularly saw this, the incubator, at first he was like, well, actually this is what we do in India all time. And what you are creating is sort of like a, a virtual stroke in real life version of that, but in, in a, in a, in a worldwide as aspect, I suppose. So for some people it's quite natural as well. So I've been, you know, really happy to see that happen and the, the joy of collaborating as well as the sort of not complications, but, you know, you know challenges, I should say.

Jose Leal (05:09):

Pull prop, because I'm going to, yeah. But one of the things that we talk about is, is this idea that there is a fiat lens, right? We've built a fiat system of, of control of, of, you know, we need to manipulate people, we need to keep them in line. And much of our system is designed to control and manipulate, right? Yeah. And we call that the, the fiat system. And then we call the lens with which most of us are used to seeing the world a fiat lens, you know, because that all looks normal to us. It, it's normal for a company to tell people what they do, what they should do, and how to do it, and when to do it. And if they don't like it too bad, we'll fire you. That that's the sort of a normal thing. And that fiat lens sees that as that's the way the world works. And the radical lens, which I think you've just described perfectly, is where people are willing to collaborate. We're willing. People are willing to see that it's okay for us to actually work together and not have to control each other, not have to impose on each other in the way that isn't collaborative in nature. Is that consistent with what you're saying?

Rachel Sheila Kan (06:30):

Exactly. And actually, I do something when, in our education side of things, which was originally by a modern day philosopher called Charles Eisenstein, which is our musical chairs, where we show them the, the fiat you're calling a fiat lens, right? We show them that in a, a crew game of child's musical chairs, whereas when you lose your chair, you lose your job, you lose your access to healthcare, you lose your house ability to make money, et cetera, et cetera. And when I played that with either my students or people in our academy for set, they, they sort of start getting into a very sort of abrupt game. And they start to say, can, one of my students said, can I elbow people outta the way? Some of them hold the chairs to their, their seats, to their, to their boss, right? It's very funny. And then one wins. And I'm like, how do you feel like you are Elon Musk now? Right. Fabulous. You know? And he's like, yeah, I was like, turn around and look at everyone else. Right? And some people are very upset because they've had chairs swiped from underneath them and things. And then I ask.

Jose Leal (07:35):

And likely some of them are sitting on the ground, right?

Rachel Sheila Kan (07:38):

Yeah. Some of them are like, ah,. And then then I say, well, what would it look like if we created a new game? And I, I think that that's what we've started to create, right? I'm not saying it's, you know, fully in, into fruition, because I think it takes a very long time to grow something like we're doing. But I have them try on that. There's 10, 20, 30 chairs in one chair, right? And there's enough chairs for pe for everyone. And in, when you know that there's enough chairs for everyone, you can swap chairs and, and things like that. The conversation is then far more collaborative. There is far more conversation, you know, and there's less fear, and there's, there's that kind of then the adapt, adapt, adaptability of being able to start to collaborate in different ways and, and physically playing that game really helps people to see that there are other ways to create the future of life. Right? I call it life rather than work. cause I don't see

Jose Leal (08:41):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so do I, and thank you for that. Because yeah. The way we've created work as a subset of life, as a separate and apart subset of life, because you we're not supposed to bring life into it, right? No. We, we can't have personal relationships cause it's just work, right? Professional, you got to be professional, professional relationships, which means that you come in, you act your role and then you'll leave and, and you feel empty because you've just done something that you didn't get connected with your colleagues. You didn't have fun in doing the work that you were doing. You've simply gone and spent a bunch of time doing something for someone else without the passion, the love, the caring, the relationships for what you're doing. I think that's where a lot of people work today.

Rachel Sheila Kan (09:44):

Yeah. A hundred percent. I really do. And when we first did the conversations for the incubator, I, when we created the incubator, it was about, we, we, I had the initial idea and the workings out of, with actually from all the places Right. As well. So I want to continue to acknowledge like everyone that's been involved in it, including yourself, right? Like, it wouldn't be called a collaborative without you. Right. Right. So, but we started to come together with all of the different players and say, what would you like out of something like this? Right. So we designed it with them Right. As okay. So we co-created the potential benefits that, that would have that community start to thrive. Right. And that was super interesting to see. And I didn't launch it until I got enough people sort of coming together to say what that was and so on and so forth. Throughout the journey of the ecosystem, it has been the same continually transforming it and, and working it in a, in a living systems way. It, that's the joy of coming together with other people. I'm not on my own with it. Right. And there's, even with growing the community, other people introduce other people as well, you know, and it's, it's, it's a natural evolving state, I'd say.

Jose Leal (11:12):

And when you describe the incubator, tell us a little bit about the incubator and, and the type of folks that are playing a role there.

Rachel Sheila Kan (11:22):

I mean, it was started really, 'cause I, I was working as a consultant and getting quite a lot of people who were micro startups. And I'd always worked with startups before, or, or very tiny, tiny one person companies or consultants and designers. And there was a mass interest in people who were inside of all the businesses. Well, and there's a, a real interest in applying circularity sustainability and working regeneratively, but it's from the smaller scale. And yeah, we, we, we wanted to start to come together to almost act as a larger entity as, as, as a, a forest, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So we designed it and grew it as a la natural living system. Each tree in the forest is a different niche of clothing or accessories or potential sort of niche areas like regenerative growing. And they can come together in their trees and, and start to co-create. But also they can come out and start to create new, new brands or collaborative marketing or, so it was very pragmatic and is very pragmatic. 'cause I'm originally from Stoke Trent, which no one will know probably well as it's the north of, north of the UK. UK. And I could hear one of my friends sort of in my, in my head where my old friends looking, well, okay, that's all well and good, forest, a facilitator's reach. But what, how are you going to actually tangibly make that happen? So I've always been very much, okay, well in this business as usual landscape, this is how we can transition towards some kind of radical future. Yeah. So the incubator was that it was a coming together to co-create, to create continual benefits to, to that together we could, we could be bigger as one or do more as one.

Jose Leal (13:32):

And you're teaching, you've got the incubator. What else? What else are you doing?

Rachel Sheila Kan (13:38):

Oh yeah, I'm teaching I'm a lecturer at the a university master's level teaching business, particularly sustainability and ethics. We also have our academy where we teach in real circularity. We are now, I am, I say we as well 'cause it's with Ken also. We are authors of our book, real Circularity that also on the back. And Ken works on the original Cradle to Cradle. He was actually the first member of the ecosystem incubator. And I was like, I was like amazed that he would join. I was like, amazing. And now that we're business partners, it's like the, the coming together of that was a collaboration itself, you know, lifting each other with, with each other's different and you know synergistic skills and practice. So there's that. And, and the incubator and I work a lot as well help mentoring, you know young entrepreneurs who wanting to come on similar journeys or grow a brand or, or, or that kind of thing. So yeah, there's, there's a lot going on.

Jose Leal (14:45):

And what you just described about coming together. I mean, that's, that's Matt and I doing the same thing and, and, and working with radical world. And so from the, because you started this with the, the real in the clothing fashion industry, right? And that was sort of, that's where you come from, you come from that space.

Rachel Sheila Kan (15:13):

Yeah. And I thought it best to, to, to be in my domain. You know, I know that I've got, you know, a network of people already doing it, but it has moved in a little bit into other spaces because, you know, inherently circularity particularly is, is an into industry activity. So we've had some, some people, we wanted to go a bit bigger on our, we were doing a summit on, on our real circularity summit particularly. And we were like, actually we need to, we'd like to take this into industry. And we've had interests from, you know the world's first circular bike and head of Google circularity, and like as well as all of our amazing people in the fashions landscape. And then, you know, just random things happen. Whereas I sort of found other people who are in, say, outdoors activities. So they're do, they're called tent share. They're, they share tents, right? And she just picks up all the festival waste here in the uk. A lot of people are very slovenly and leave.

Jose Leal (16:26):

It's not just in the UK.

Rachel Sheila Kan (16:29):

They leave things and she just, she goes and picks them all up and she said, I've got these sleeping bags. What do I do with them? I said, I could bring them here. So I added, did my design skills, and I worked with my sister. And again, we recreated a collaboration there where we created this thing called Love Big Coats, which is sleeping bags from festivals into coats. And it's, but the, you know, it's never going to make me a million pounds, but actually it's been a really great attractor to our work. 'cause It's a tangible like thing. So it's like, I can see that. I know, I, I can see that you are collaborating with all these, these other people, right. And including like for, you know, QR patches that we've done with, with another company. And it doesn't have to be transactional, you know, that's the, that's the joy of this, right? It's like, okay, how can we, we, can we be creative? How can we raise each other? And 10 share always says that because the coats are there, it's something that is then tangible and has people come and look at her world too and vice versa. So, yeah.

Jose Leal (17:35):

So, so you're doing all of this and you've got two boys, is that right?

Rachel Sheila Kan (17:39):

Two boys, yes.

Jose Leal (17:41):

How, how do you find time to do all this?

Rachel Sheila Kan (17:45):

Time, time for me isn't, it, isn't like as linear as I thought it was in a way. Right? It's like, actually if you there's not, it's not even just focus. It's like yeah, I like a, a willingness. I want to get out of bed and do this. It's, it brings me joy every day.

Jose Leal (18:12):

Very motivating, isn't it?

Rachel Sheila Kan (18:14):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like super motivating in my lungs. It's like, wow, I want to get up and do this. Like, people want to come and come onto Zooms and collaborate and, and, and, and enjoy like immensely, all of all of this kind of creativity that's happening. Right.

Jose Leal (18:35):

I was doing an interview earlier this week with a gentleman who is the co-founder of, I don't know if you've ever heard of liberating Structures?

Rachel Sheila Kan (18:48):

No. And sounds like I should.

Jose Leal (18:51):

Yes, you should. And, and anyway. And his name is Henry. And and throughout the interview, 'cause he worked for the same company for 30 years. Yeah. And throughout the inter back in the sixties, seventies and eighties. So a little bit different era than, than we were doing. Yeah. And throughout the interviews, oh, we, I was working with this team in, in Belgium. I loved them. I was working with this team in Denmark. We had so much fun. I was working with this thing, you know, and he was the team lead and he had the, the wherewithal to, to have these collaborative relationships with his teams. Not, you know, he didn't come in and say, I'm the boss now and you know, Mr. Such and such. Right. It was just the opposite. And it's, it is amazing to see that the system we've built up didn't exist everywhere. There were pockets of people that were doing this type, what we're talking about doing now have, has existed in, in different places. And, and that motivation that you were talking about for you, that that thing of waking up and wanting to do this, I think is, is one that you're doing something and it's fun and it's, you know, it, it, you're being creative, you're doing the thing you want to do, but also the fact that it's, as you said, it's not linear. I don't have to do that only. Right. You can do the thing that feels right today and tomorrow you can do the other thing because it feels right tomorrow. 'cause The truth is, it gets boring to do the same thing day in and day out. And we've forced ourselves to do the same tasks day in and day out for many, many years.

Rachel Sheila Kan (20:56):

Yeah. And I get with collaboration though, it's not just me though now. Like, especially when we come into the co-creation pods. There's other people using their specialist skills that I don't have either. Exactly. Like there's, there's, that's their unique, amazing abilities. Let's actually create that so that we're creating that thrive ability together. You know, like that, that's, that's the gorgeous thing. That it's a, it's not just me doing, I'm driving a lot of it. I'm not going to say I'm not, but there is now this ability to move into another space with it. Yes. To, to not to not let go. I don't know to say let go. Right. It's not that. It's more like, let's thrive. Okay. That's you are go, we are going to create something that showcases your inherent skills with this, this tangible thing.

Jose Leal (22:02):

Absolutely. And, and for me that there's a, there's its own motivation in seeing a collaboration and collaborators mature Yeah. In their, in, in that environment. Right. Yeah. And, and succeed in that environment. Because there's the, I think just as in with the, the fiat lens that I, I think it's sort of, they call it rean. Are you familiar with that term? It's a it's a German word. And I'm, I think I'm misspoken 'cause I can't pronounce German. But it basically means to, to revel or enjoy someone else's misery.

Rachel Sheila Kan (22:50):

Oh, wow. Okay.

Jose Leal (22:51):

Right. It's a feeling where someone that you don't care for is suffering in some way. And, and I believe that this fiat lens creates a lot of that in the workplace where someone else's failure is, is actually enjoyed reveled in by, by other members of, of the, of the, the organization. And, and I think that collaborating in a, in a radical organization is really the opposite. It's reveling in, in each other's success because there are enough chairs, as you pointed out earlier. Yeah.

Rachel Sheila Kan (23:40):

Right. And my, our, my success is our success.

Jose Leal (23:43):

Exactly.

Rachel Sheila Kan (23:44):

Right. Exactly. It then becomes, and, and my business partner Simon, who's been a big part of like co-creating the ecosystem, always says it's a musketeer a musketeer them, you know, that actually we're like, we are the musketeers coming together.

Jose Leal (24:01):

And that's it. Because our nature is in abundance in a place of, of ability to help. That's what we want to do. Right. But when we are put in a position of being, having to fight for whatever little crumb we can get, then we fight and then we say, well, human nature. Yeah. Human nature is to be, you know, to be doing that. And Yeah. It is. If you're set up to do that, if

Rachel Sheila Kan (24:43):

You're in that system.

Jose Leal (24:44):

In the, we set up a system, we set up a mindset, we set up a lens where that all seems normal. Yeah. And so for, for us with radical worlds, it's, it's not enough to think about that. We as people have to grow and see for ourselves that that lens isn't reality, but that we can actually collaborate and create communities of collaboration that are not only helping each other out, but learning how to collaborate better. Because we've had hundreds of years of the fiat system of how to fight for that chair. And we've come up with all kinds of ways to make it sort of, you know, the law is about, oh, look at that. The law ,the law is about how do we fight fairly, but it's not about not fighting, it's about how we fight fairly. Mm. Right. We don't think of our law as collaboration. We have not built a, a, a system of, of legal framework for collaborating. We've built a, a legal framework for how to fight fairly. So we, we set up contracts and agreements as well. You have to do this fairly and that fairly, but we know we're going to have a confrontation. So, you know, let's build these agreements to actually do that confrontation. Right. So we have to start from a place of, no, it isn't about confrontation, otherwise we will get back to where we're at. And it sounds like to me that you're doing that, that that's really sort of the way that you and your community are, are communicating.

Rachel Sheila Kan (26:49):

Yeah. I mean, we, you know, I think there's a, a little bit of a, a hybrid effect, right? I, I know that where we are is where we are. Yeah. And we did, we did actually sit down with a lawyer and create a collaborative agreement very loose to help them, to help people to be able to be in this space, right. Because, and transition themselves with us. Right. and actually haven't massively used it yet, like for some of the very small collaborations, you know, coming together in a very a small amount of time for, say, collaborative marketing or coming together for a trade show or something like that. It's, it's not necessary. But when we're looking at something where we're setting up something very real that will be a longer term investment of people's time and energy and sometimes money Right. Then, then we, we do sort of say, okay, we can, we can use a hybrid approach here. And I'm not afraid of working in that way at all. So yeah. Well,

Jose Leal (27:55):

Have you heard of from a legal perspective, have you heard of the conscious contract movement?

Rachel Sheila Kan (28:03):

Yes. Yes. Okay. I think I did speak to them at first, so, yeah.

Jose Leal (28:07):

Yeah. So that's very much, it's, it is an agreement. It's still done by lawyers. It's still an agreement, but the lens with which the parties and the lawyer is looking at things is not of the zero sum game. Right.

Rachel Sheila Kan (28:22):

Yeah.

Jose Leal (28:23):

It, it's already an approach of how do we figure, how, how do we do this so that we are not, it's not about you winning or me winning, but us collaborating.

Rachel Sheila Kan (28:32):

No, and it was like that, like how do we actually just make it so that everyone's seen on, on a document. Exactly. And that was literally edited. So, you know so yeah, like when I explained it to him in a normal lawyer, he was actually like, oh, I get that. We could do this, this, this because I'd set the context up. You know, this is what we're doing, right? We're coming together to do this. It might look like this or like this, or like this. It could be infinite ways. It could be a hundred people, it could be three people, it could be two people <laugh>, you know. So something that was very breathable just came about, which was really nice to see from, you know, a business as usual perspective moving into something very different for them. So

Jose Leal (29:20):

It sounds like you're being very practical with this. It's like, whatever works, as long as we're going in, in the, the direction of collaborating. The direction of letting people's motivation come through Yeah. Of, of letting people really live their truth in, in a way that is coming through the with the community. So for me, the idea of seeing this evolve in your, in your space how do you see folks coming in and, and reproducing this, not just for themselves, but for their friends, for their family, for their neighbors? Are you seeing that at this point? Yeah,

Rachel Sheila Kan (30:28):

I think it's inspired some people to start their own communities for sure. In other micro niches. And yeah, I mean, I guess I've taken it out into my own community as well. Like where, where I live, there's a block of 10 flats and you know, just starting to have them try on, on this kind of new way of living. Like, because I, I don't see it as being, it's only in the business space actually. This can be in a community aspect. Exactly. and then within, you know, the different pods pod, I call them seed pods, you know, the, the different pods of ideas that then start to just grow little tiny, even if it's just a little tiny seedling that comes up.

Jose Leal (31:12):

Do you know what that's called, by the way?

Rachel Sheila Kan (31:14):

What's that?

Jose Leal (31:15):

That little tiny thing that grows out of a seed. It's called a radical.

Rachel Sheila Kan (31:21):

It isn't. Oh, wow. I love that's going into the incubator. A hundred percent. That's called a radical. Really.

Jose Leal (31:29):

A radical. Yes.

Rachel Sheila Kan (31:31):

No, that's it. Even if we just start the conversation and start moving towards it with each other that, you know, is a joy, you know, even to just start putting together some things on paper. So yeah. I mean, definitely others have set up their own stuff. And yeah, it's come then, as I said, from other aspects as well outside of the incubator. So it sort of doesn't have to be contained in there, you know, but it does help, you know, that there's a place of holding space for, for collaboration of a facilitation of it. I found as well, I had to step back and, and let it grow how it needed to grow. 'cause It was one point where I was like, okay, we need to make sure I'm com you know, committing to all of the, you know, all of the meetings and dah, dah, dah, dah. And actually what they needed, and they said to me that they needed was just a bit more of a chilled out space as well. So actually I'm getting feedback into, okay, this is how we need this to grow and evolve, you know, at the same sort of time where you don't, we don't have to have, you know, all of these different things going on.

Jose Leal (32:56):

Right, right, right.

Rachel Sheila Kan (32:57):

They, they can be a part of creating what's there, you know just as much as I can.

Jose Leal (33:04):

Well, and you said it's, it's, and I love that, and I, I say it, and I've actually pulled back from saying it sometimes because a lot of people say, what do you mean by life or living? And because for me, the word life is everything. Yeah. Right. It's everything. It's, it's, it's all of us. It's every plant, it's every animal, it's everything. And when we are living that life expressing it to its fullest, and we have people who are willing to help us express it to its fullest by giving us the space, giving us the support, giving us the the wherewithal to make it happen. It's, I I see it Now, I love your metaphor of the chair, because I see it as people bringing you the chair when it's needed. Right. It's not about pulling the chair away, but actually saying, here, I have a chair for you at this moment, the right chair to serve you at this very moment. And you, you need that high chair there. Here's a high chair. You need a low chair. Here's a low chair. You need a chair that reclines here's a low. You know, that type of understanding for each other.

Rachel Sheila Kan (34:25):

Exactly.

Jose Leal (34:26):

Is living.

Rachel Sheila Kan (34:27):

Yes. And it's not like a charitable thing. Like, I, I'm just g I'm going to give, you know, all away all of my energy, all of my time, all of my dah, dah, dah. No, it's, it's a win-win situation. It's a flow, it's a, it's a move. It's a moving, living, breathing thing, you know,

Jose Leal (34:43):

Like life.

Rachel Sheila Kan (34:44):

Like life, yes.

Jose Leal (34:45):

Like life, you know, the trees don't generate oxygen as a kind out of the kindness of their hearts. It's, it's what they expel when they take in, you know, the carbon. So it, it's for us to recognize that we all generate different things,

Rachel Sheila Kan (35:09):

A hundred percent. Right. we, we look at it and call that kind of thing, the living and breathing tree and the tree that creates also habitat for animals. And the roots, and they've going to mess mycelium and everything. Right. And the leaves come off and they create a nutrients, we, we call it in our real clarity work. You know, outside that processional benefits. You are continually creating these processional benefits that also become benefits for you. And if you see yourself or your organization, or your business or your community, or, you know, even if you're in politics, you know, that I, I see that this kind of way of living can be placed into every situation. But if you see it as like that you are that living, breathing thing, and that you are, if you expel you, you get something not in return, in a kind of give take sort of thing, but in a natural flow, ah, it's a regenerative flow way, you know then you are more, you are just creating that as a, as a processional benefit of just being that business, or just being that individual, or just being that community, or just being that political party or whatever you want to, you know, I'd like a decentralized sort of thing going on, but, you know. Whatever. Yeah. But that you are continually doing that because you know that, that, that it's going to, you know, it's going to breathe back in. So

Jose Leal (36:45):

We, we've been trying to keep these short, and so we've been at it for 36 minutes, which is awesome. I was wondering if there was anything you wanted to say that you haven't said?

Rachel Sheila Kan (36:59):

Gosh. On the spot there. Gosh, I don't know. I, I guess like, well, you know, it's, it will, you'll find me online. Just go and delve in and, and, and look, look at what's going on there. We have all the different websites. Everything is linked. And we're doing a summit in June, which we're really looking forward to with Ken and, and all of the different in industry elements that I spoke about earlier on. And yeah, I just, I just love doing it. So I'm, I'm going to continue whatever happens.

Jose Leal (37:44):

I have to do this. Oh,

Rachel Sheila Kan (37:45):

You do? Does that do it on me too? Now? It doesn't do anything.

Jose Leal (37:49):

It's, it's the Mac. So I'm not sure if you're on the Mac or not. When we met, I, I was taken by your energy and by your awesome ability to, to take things in and run with them. And I, you, of the many, many hundreds, thousands of people that I have met on this journey over the last five, six years you are one of those people that has continually popped up for me as someone who is grasps being the next thing and running with it safely. But also remembering everybody and everything that has contributed to that. And, and it feels so special to have known you, to know you, to be part of everything you're doing, even if it is tangentially not on the regular basis. But it's it's an honor and I appreciate.

Rachel Sheila Kan (39:08):

No, and vice versa, you know, like I'm win the regenerative way is to acknowledge all of the people that ha all of the people, whether they're dead or alive, that have inspired you on the journey. So I'm constantly posting whenever I post, I'm like, at this person, at that person, Donella Meadows, even though she doesn't have an A anymore because she's not alive. You know, actually, we need to acknowledge that it's not just us, that it is, it's the we now and the we of the past. Absolutely. All of that deep, great roots and you know, mulch, if we're going to go into the regenerative stamps.

Jose Leal (39:47):

It's all the people that brought us the chair.

Rachel Sheila Kan (39:50):

A hundred percent. Exactly. Yes.

Jose Leal (39:53):

Because that's what we do for each other.

Rachel Sheila Kan (39:56):

Yeah.

Jose Leal (39:57):

And it's, it's awesome.

Rachel Sheila Kan (40:00):

Love it.

Jose Leal (40:01):

I am Okay. I've got goosebumps. Thank you so much for this conversation today it's been a while, so I think we need to take a conversation offline as well, because.

Rachel Sheila Kan (40:17):

A hundred percent

Jose Leal (40:18):

I want to, I want to catch up and thank you not only for taking the time to be here for the wonderful stuff you've done with the TED Talk and all of those other things, but also for just being you and allowing your life to shine as well as it does. Truly appreciate that. Carlos, I don't know about next week, but I think we've got another radical pioneers next week. And so episode five is coming we're talking about we've been talking about fiat and the fiat lens, and we're going to be talking about the radical lens coming up next, next week. So join us next week as Matt and I and Tullio have a conversation around what is the radical lens, because we've talked quite a bit about all that darkness that we see in our society today and, and the fiat system. What is what is the radical lens and how do we see ourselves and the possibility of collaborating what Rachel is already doing. Let's, let's talk about that next week. So see you next week, Rachel. Thank you again.

Rachel Sheila Kan (41:42):

Thank you.

Jose Leal (41:42):

And we'll see you soon. Ciao everybody.