Is It Time for Leadership to Let Go of Control?

Matt Perez (00:08):

Hi, my name is Matt Perez. I'm here with Jose Leal my partner and Andrew Tilling who happens to live in Italy. And we're going to go through our usual conversation with Andrew and, and really looking forward to talk about the, the you know, the, the changes that are coming and this is being part of. So, Andrew welcome to the show and tell us a little bit about your business and what are you doing and your business and what are your clients doing.

Andrew Tilling (00:42):

Matt, Jose, thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be with you guys. I think it's the big question of what we are doing is in fact, something that a lot of, you know, people have known me for a long time, is still trying to figure out. And, you know, I, I talk with a whole bunch of people in marketing trying to articulate it better as well. But, you know, for us right now, what we focus on at The Hive change consultancy is around transforming working cultures to deliver results that matter. So how does that pan out on what matters? Well, that often depends on the people that we're working with and, you know, understanding a little bit about their story and what it is that they're trying to do. But essentially, for me, it's about trying to create a workplace where it doesn't matter what role you have, doesn't matter in fact, what industry you're in what business you're in, what role, everything that you do is, is somehow making a positive impact for future generations.

Andrew Tilling (01:35):

I think it's really important to frame it in that way. It's good to make a positive impact, that's great. But if we are discounting future impacts in the decisions that we make, so for instance, it's like, yeah, great, we can make, transfer all this energy over here and build this wonderful infrastructure, and that's going to help all these people in these ways. But then we're, we're taking away from, you know, future comfort of future generations of indeed the planet, then, you know, that's a big future cost that we're discounting. So, you know, if trying to factor in that, that very long-term view into day-to-day decision-making can in fact be quite challenging, particularly when you're under pressure to deliver on quarterly results or, you know, hit that number. So, you know, often we, when we go in and work with a client, and we're trying to create this positive performance and indeed increase profit and a lot of our work, you know, with sales teams really does help in those kinds of ways. But it's this big question around why are we here

Matt Perez (02:41):

Mm-Hmm.

Andrew Tilling (02:41):

<Affirmative> and why does what we do matter? And, and if we can kind of get our head into that, it becomes so much easier to get that kind of decision-making where people instinctively know what a good choice is what, and we're talking right down on the front line. And it seems, it seems kind of sensible. It seems kind of, it, it seems to make sense. I mean, a lot of military organizations are all about kind of decentralizing that decision-making and trying to bring it to the front line. And I know that you guys are, are all over this idea of, of kind of you know, that co-decision-making across the organization, but trying to align people's thinking and, and in such a way where they're still able to contribute diverse opinions creates all kinds of cultural tensions, which really struggle to play out when you've got a strong leadership structure or expectations about how things have always been done. So for me, it, you know, I, me and my team, when we go on in, we, we spend an awful, awful, a lot of time really trying to understand an organization, try to understand their challenges, try to understand where the real value they can deliver to the, the widest stakeholder environment is, and, and how they can do that better. And in a way that also happens to be quite profitable too. So, you know, that's, that's the fun game that we play.

Matt Perez (04:01):

Yeah. Actually, the, the way that we run companies today, in my view is business hustle is, is it goes country to making money and, and, and growing things and stuff like that. So yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. Tell the name The Hive. Where does, where does that come from?

Andrew Tilling (04:22):

Well, really kind of working together better, and we, we, we've got this kind of sign off if you like, around collective intelligence. It's like that really everything we do kind of boils down to that. And, and a lot of people kind of think, well, hang on, isn't that group think, you know, that's really dangerous. Well, yes, but what about group mind? And if you can bring in diversity of thinking and a freedom to challenge people's thinking, if you actually look at a beehive and you try to figure out, for instance, if they're going to swarm somewhere else, they, they do this wonderful behavior of kind of butting heads. It's like they've flown around, they think there's a good place to go and do a new hive over there or a new nest. And what they'll do is they'll come together and start butting heads in different directions until they kind of convince each other that actually, all right, then by, we've, by, we've reached a consensus, we're going to go in that direction and they'll take the new queen and whoof, they're off.

Andrew Tilling (05:12):

You know. But it's, it's a decision-making process. It's not Yes. Of individuals, you know, it's, so, we, we love that idea of about bringing in diversity and challenging each other's thinking and, and bringing that into what we do. But for me, the biggest problem that I found when I worked into when I started working in the corporate world, and I didn't always do that, I, I grew up in a very kind of social enterprise environment where we were, my parents were running projects for benefiting the community. My mother's was all around theater. So I got very much involved with performing arts, and I ended up being a professional actor, running a, a youth theater for the first kind of seven years of my professional life. And it works on all these different projects and did lots of work with, with kids who are at risk of falling into crime and all that kind of stuff.

Andrew Tilling (06:02):

And, you know, loved all that work. Had a bit of a crisis of I don’t know, belief in the industry. I just didn't resonate with me. I wanted to do something different. So I traveled for a bit, have a, had a good look at the world, and kind of came back and had my first, my first professional job was working with fundraisers, fundraising for all kinds of different organizations like Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace and Amnesty International and all these, these incredible organizations. Learned a lot about their stories and about human rights and, you know, the challenges that we're facing as a world, but with all these amazing people, super smart, very passionate, couldn't seem to get anything done. Yes. Right? I mean, in this, in this theater environment, it was, it was like, look, you're under high pressure.

Andrew Tilling (06:52):

There's no budget. You've got these talents of varying skills, you know, and we've still got a job to do and we need to get it done by this deadline, and we find a way to do it. Feast or famine, we find a way. But suddenly within this professional structured environment, all these people that I assumed were super smart, super intelligent, knew all these wonderful things and ways to operate that were a bit alien to me. I just felt that the more I stayed there, the less effective I got, you know, <laugh> and, and it was like, this isn't something's wrong here, you know? So I, I really did kind of bake my noodle on it. And I did manage to lead a bit of a culture change with some, you know, extraordinary people working in this organization. And we doubled results. We raised 27 million pounds almost, almost 35,000 I guess, dollars in that in that one year worth of donations that were long-term donations.

Andrew Tilling (07:47):

And I thought I, I kind of came away from that and I thought, right, there's a consultancy here. There's something about collaboration. There's something about working together and thinking together better. And together with my wife, we founded that this organization to primarily help with social enterprise. And then we, we started looking at, at corporates, but because of a documentary called The Corporation, which I don’t know if you guys, yeah, this is an award-winning documentary. Very, very powerful. But the idea that it put forward was that the, if you look at the characteristics of psychopathy, all right? So things like glib and superficial charm, lack of remorse or guilt lack of realistic goals all kinds of different things. And, and also callous lack of empathy. If you map these behavior traits against the legal entity that is known as a corporation mm-hmm.

Andrew Tilling (08:48):

<Affirmative>, actually, you can see in many cases, instances of this psychopathic behavior, which kind of suggests that it's systemic, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And this had a really profound effect on me. And in fact, the guy who created the, the structure to Robert Hare, I mean, he came out and he said, well, look, hang on, that's kind of not what I was saying. That's not where I was going. And in fact, it's not that everybody who's a corporation is a psychopath, but in fact, you can see these elements and maybe some do could display that as a bit of an exercise. And so, okay, so it's been kind of tempered back, but then recently you look at it and it's like, you know, suddenly you've got, you know the percentage is, I've got it here between four and 12% of CEOs exhibit psychopathic traits.

Andrew Tilling (09:36):

And it's like, okay, so hang on. Is it the, is it the institution that we're going into? Is it, is it the role of just being in power that's kind of making us behave this way? Or is it that the people with these traits get into these positions of power? But, what is it that's, that's meaning that we're having this blatant disregard for the truth in recognizing our responsibilities of our impact or recognizing the, the real challenges that we face with against to climate something I'm very passionate about or indeed rights of workers and all those different aspects? Why do we, why do we ignore them in the pursuit of this, this idea of profit, when really these are very real needs, they're very real issues? And they're by definition of the market means this profit an opportunity.

Andrew Tilling (10:30):

If we price them and lean into them, right? Yes. So, so for me, I kind of thought, right, we, we've got to fi figure out a way of, you know, how do you treat someone with psychopathic traits? And, you know, the, for me, that was all around empathy. And so I kind of made it a personal mission to bring in empathy into organizations. How do you bake it in, how do you, how do you bring not shareholder choices, but stakeholder needs into the heart of decision-making. How do you, how do, which which can include shareholders, right? But, but that broader stakeholder environment. And, and you know, with that, whether it's decentralizing ownership, which I know something that you guys are very passionate about to shared ownership models to the Patagonia model of, Hey, let's give it to the earth. You know, what, whatever those choices may be, if we can look at it as how are we making positive impact within the people who are affected by what we do? And, and use empathy as the mother of innovation. So if necessity is the mother of invention, then an empathy for other people's needs can inspire great innovation that can scale and grow. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> deliver outstanding results. So that's, that's kind of what's been baking my noodle for the last two decades.

Jose Leal (11:45):

<Laugh>, you, you, you talk about empathy. Do you see empathy as, as something that is innate to us? Or, or do you see it's something we need to teach people? What, what's, what's your view on what is empathy? Because that, that I think alters the way we approach that, that that line of thinking, right?

Andrew Tilling (12:10):

For sure. So I I didn't know this about me, but it's, it's taken me a while to understand, but I I exhibit traits of, of high sensitivity. So I'm, I'm wired biologically, there's nothing I can do about it to feel or experience other people's states or changes in state. That, that just gives me this, this kind of a, a bit of an awareness of the room, which kind of helped me read the room when I was teaching, helps me read the room when I'm, when I'm, when I was performing, helps me read the room when I'm, when I'm facilitating and, and training now

Jose Leal (12:44):

And being interviewed.

Andrew Tilling (12:46):

<Laugh>, <laugh>. Well, it depends. I mean, you know, completely missed is what I don’t know. But it makes me kind of feel makes me feel. And, and it took me a while to figure out what was my feeling and what was other people's for a while, it kind of left me pretty confused, to be honest, in, in the high stress scenarios. But over the years I kind of learned to realize that, okay, there's, there's differing states in the room. There's people have responding to different situations differently or to the same situation differently. And by, by understanding that and factoring that in, I can make better decisions as a leader. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So in an environment where we are agreeing to work together and yeah, and, and collaborate towards working towards a goal, if I can just build in a communication point that says, do you know what?

Andrew Tilling (13:43):

I don't feel comfortable with what it is that you've just said, or that brings up some fear in me, or, do you know what I'm worried about that, or, I'm really excited about that and this sounds like the best idea ever. But if we can voice those things without fear of repercussions. Cause I think fear and blame is a, is a big kind of part of the problem, right? Yes. Then we can really start getting information, better information about how our different choices are going to impact people. And what that helps us to do is identify a bit about what's important to people, and we can name that. And we, we've got good words for that around values, you know, in our culture by identifying different values and conflicting values at different stakeholders within our environment. And by factoring those into our decision-making, we can start allowing ourselves to be influenced by more than the guiding tenets of our organization or indeed our role.

Andrew Tilling (14:41):

And, you know, when I came out to speak with you guys, it was, it was around this idea of, you know, our, our, our leaders as, as leaders, you know, should we be letting go of control, right? Because it's a, it's, it's a terrifying thing to let go and suddenly have people that we, in some cases we're not even connected with. You know, we've, we've got people in between us and them, and they're on the, on the front line and they are you know, interacting with our customers and, and, you know, if I haven't got control over them as a leader, then surely I'm somehow putting myself at risk or a failure. And I, and I saw it really play out during the pandemic when some clients that we worked with out of sheer necessity or need or concern adopted a commander control structure from something that had been quite loose before. And it was often cases very effective for the first wave because everybody recognized there was this picture and everyone's kind of suspended their need to be autonomous just to contribute in a different way, but in the, in the spirit of the cause

Matt Perez (15:48):

Suspended disbelief.

Andrew Tilling (15:50):

Exactly that, right? And then we move into this idea of, all right then well second wave, well come on guys, and we're going to keep on controlling because we've got to do it, you know, and then you get this kind of like, all right, and then third wave, it's like, do you know what? I'm done. I'm absolutely done. So, and, and I, for, for my experience, what that's scene is that we, we suddenly got this big pushback that said, if this carries on, if you keep this culture in place, I'm out and I'm looking for somewhere where I can be more fulfilled, where I can be contributing and own that contribution. And I think as a, as we move, as we have different a different way of kind of thinking and working, collaborating as new generations come through who are very aware of the wider impacts of, of, of business in the world. And they've been brought up knowing that sustainability is a very real concern that people's people have got the right to be themselves, you know, and to live their lives as, as they those so Jews, you know, with their values and their choices, you know, as we start recognizing these things and we start bringing them into an organization, people aren't just going to accept a cultural reality or

Matt Perez (16:58):

Accept, and Andrew, I want to take it, I want to take it back because you were describing the current situation and you said, if we can only o only get these people to lose control and to be more empathic and stuff like that, but the system, the overall system that they live in and the reason they've made it to CEO or whatever it is, is based on competition. The system is based on, that, what do you call a psychopathic behavior? Yeah, yeah. Because who wins when older the bruises get on the field, it is the guy who's the bigger, bigger brute, right? The guy with the bigger stick kills everybody else and he ends up on top. So, so in a sense, by making, having be empathic and stuff like that, things might work better below deposition, but things with the board will not work as well because the, the, the answers when they say, how come we're not making this or we're not doing that, or we're not making the margin, or whatever it is, the answer is not going to make sense to them if it comes from empathy.

Matt Perez (18:19):

And it comes from, you know, making, making people feel good, making people feel more playful, which is part of innovation. So, that's one of the big challenges in making the transition, right? People who want people who want to make the change, but they can't because live in the system where they can't afford to make the change. What, what do you,

Andrew Tilling (18:46):

It's about three different things to bear with me while I try to unpack them. Number one, I mean, culturally, I think that empathy is extraordinarily powerful in a sales environment. Yes. You build that into the culture of your organization, if you understand, then can understand at a very deep level the challenges of your customer, then you are able to provide, not even just provide the new solutions or innovate, but tailor the way that you communicate the value that you are selling to that customer.

Matt Perez (19:13):

I agree.

Andrew Tilling (19:14):

And so that they can, so it resonates with them and that, and they're more likely to adopt it and apply those, those solutions and they get so much more benefit and value out of it as a result. So, and,

Matt Perez (19:23):

And they become more, more loyal customers to abuse of that word in the sense that, you know, they know they, they're understood by you. And, so in the sales environment, it makes perfect sense. Try to explain that to traditional salespeople people. And it, it doesn't play, it doesn't go very far.

Andrew Tilling (19:46):

Not without a sales culture transformation program, which has been something we've been building up with drive, because it really, is because people don't get it. They, they, they want the short-term win because they've been positioned to get the short-term wins, right? And, you know, trying to break that down and kind of look more long tail, it doesn't mean that you can't build in short-term wins, but it's about trying to understand how they're part of a bigger program trying to, trying to build those deeper connections. And to be honest, salespeople who go with that focus of just getting the short-term win are, are effectively order-taking. It's about connecting people with something that they want and then finalizing the deal, which will be automated if it's not already within the next two to three years. Right? Unless you're, unless you are making that human connection, really you're doing yourself out of a job.

Andrew Tilling (20:30):

But I, I do think there's great profitability in bringing empathy and understanding to your stakeholder environment and, and building stronger and more effective joint ventures and partnerships as a result. So, so I think there's a lot of profit there. So that's, that's kind of number one. Number two, you mentioned playfulness. So I have I, I do a martial art called Capoeira, but I say do what we say is we, we play this game called Capoeira. And I've studied Capoeira for the best part of 17 years now with the London School of Capoeira Mr. Sylvia Elli and Marcus DeSantis, and two very inspiring people. And what I found with Kae is the objective of Kato is not to win. You go into the hotter where the game takes place and you play and you have an exchange with your, with your partner. It's often non-contact, but you do make it very clear that you could make contact or indeed, if, well, it's non-contact if you don't get out of the way, basically. But <laugh>, if you when you play that game, you've got masters who have played for decades playing with people who have played for months mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And yet somehow there is this exchange. And what's really special is that both learn because the objective of the game is to have a good game.

Jose Leal (21:49):

Yes.

Andrew Tilling (21:50):

Now, I've used that to help train negotiation for years, you know, that not go in there with a win-lose attitude that I've got to beat you to get the best out of this negotiation. We've got to find a win-win solution that works for everybody. And that requires communication. And that requires hey, empathy and openness and vulnerability and all those very human things, which I agree can disappear the minute you go into an organization or a system, which is then all about competition. But, but not every, and I think some, you know, sometimes we forget and, and bear in mind that I, I work with many very many inspiring people from the states who, you know, exhibit all kinds of, of very progressive and very grounded and very sensible thinking in what they do. But, you know, the classic United States model of sports is that win-lose. And you bring that also into business. I, I captain and my team, therefore, will promote you in this organization. Cause it's clearly you are a good leader. Well, not always, right? Right. There's, there are other forms of games and there are other forms of play and there are other forms of creativity and there are other forms of exploration and experimentation.

Jose Leal (23:05):

But there's only one form of organizing that's systemic right now. Right. And that what we call fiat is a system of not only do we compete my organization against your organization, my market share against your market share or everybody else's market share, but we as individuals against each other, our departments against each other's departments. And my role against your role, and I mean, we climb the corporate ladder, it's literally by pulling someone else's feet out from underneath them to get up the corporate ladder, it, there is no other way to climb the corporate ladder, right? Unless you're either pulling somebody off the ladder or you're climbing over their back. So it, that, that system is what we're talking about. I am, is that I, I know we're kind of being a little direct here. Does that feel right to you?

Andrew Tilling (24:02):

Well, it's Margaret Huffman's super chickens TED talk, isn't it? That, you know, you, you, if you go through with this super chicken model, which is recruiting to your team only the, the highly driven overachievers, then it ends up being counterproductive because there's a, there's a hyper-competitive in the group dynamic as you, as you've expressed. And I think that looking at systems where, you know, when one wins more, you know, everybody wins. It's a, it's that team, team dynamic. I mean, for me, compensation plans, for instance, in the sales team are often all about how many leads you can steal from your friends. And it's like working on a minute that's, that that can't be the way forward. Whereas if you look at it that there are shared team goals that we can participate in, I think that helps. This is why I think co-ownership is so very attractive because you can, you know, give everybody responsibility for that, for that win. But I think it goes beyond that.

Jose Leal (25:04):

Give that give, that's part of our mentality is what we say. We give this thing to…

Andrew Tilling (25:11):

<Crosstalk>, ah, we suggest I own it in the first place, right?

Jose Leal (25:15):

<Laugh>, right.

Andrew Tilling (25:16):

Which I love, and I think it, it kind of plays into this idea of you know, the impact that I want to create and help in the world. I know that I can't deliver that impact on my own. No. You know, it would be narcissistic to suggest that, that it would in a serious case of white savior syndrome. Right. So how do we, how do we deal with that? And you know, for me that means that I have to empower other people to go, and Yes. And deliver,

Jose Leal (25:41):

Have to empower each other.

Andrew Tilling (25:42):

And…

Jose Leal (25:43):

That's the trick. We need to empower each other. Right. You see, because you empowering others will only work if they can empower you

Andrew Tilling (25:53):

Where the exchange comes in.

Jose Leal (25:55):

Exactly.

Andrew Tilling (25:55):

Which is where I learn from playing a junior member of, the caper team, as well as I learn from playing a master. Yes. You know, there is an exchange that takes place.

Jose Leal (26:05):

That's it. Yeah.

Andrew Tilling (26:07):

It's a beautiful dynamic.

Matt Perez (26:09):

I read I think this morning that they put caps on people to track, their brain activity. And there were students and teachers and the teacher would have a short lecture. And people learned the most people learned when their brains were in sync. And people whose brain was more, more in sync with, with instructor learned the most. And they then passed it on. And which is very close to, to the idea of just adjacent learning, which is a councilman education, which is you learn more from a guy that's a little bit ahead of you than from a guy who's miles away from <laugh> because he sees your is easier to get in sync with that person. And capoeira and all the rest of the, most of the martial arts are that way where, where you learning from each other.

Matt Perez (27:17):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And, in the case of JFK, when my kids were little, they obviously couldn't compete with the big guy. Right. But they did. And, and what the big guy would, would do, and you could see it because it was always, it, it was, they found their weaknesses and didn't exploit the weaknesses, they exploited the strength. And I thought that was beautiful. So when you started talking about martial arts, I thought, yep, that's beautiful. And but it's this idea that, that we're all, we're all helping each other to go forward to move. And, and, going back to the fear hierarchy, and by the way, FIAT means “because I said so”. Hmm. So…

Andrew Tilling (28:06):

Like FIAT currency, right? It's like, it's so, it is kind…

Matt Perez (28:10):

Thing. Yeah. It's, it's the dollar because they say, so next thing said it's the dollar is the dollar. And there's no goal backing or anything like that, which was a stupid thing, to begin with. But anyways so the hierarchy kind of gets in the way of that. And I applaud, your effort to try to make a transformation from a point of view of getting smaller wins in sales and this and, then bring it all up to a CEO who, who can then find a way to communicate with the board. That's very important. The board, the board represents the owners and they're, they're the ultimate bosses. And so that's got to be part of the formula is, is how to, how to make that transition. But in the end, we don't see any lasting solution with the fear hierarchy still in place. Once you have a fear hierarchy, I can always say, I'm the new CEO, and everything that went before me was total. And we're going to do with all that. We're going to do things by the book. And so that's the problem with the FIAT argument, and the owners behind it. It's…

Jose Leal (29:31):

It’s a permissive structure, right? You allow everyone else allows the individual who gets fiat into place, to be the one that has the answers, to be the one that makes the decisions. And we just wait, sit back, wait for that person to make their decisions. And that's the system we live in. And so my question to you, Andrew, is how do you deal with that as you are progressing within the organization? You're working with sales and obviously, you've got, you know, the sales director or VP or something of that nature working within their environment, but then having a different type of relationship with the, you know, the C-suite and them having a different relationship with the investors or the board. What, where, where do you see that line? How do you deal with that?

Andrew Tilling (30:31):

Well, I think what we're talking to is, is essentially values conflicts. It's like the, you know, one of the priorities of different people within the organization, which, you know, come about, whether you are an acting T troop that is trying to, you know, figure out how they're going to get through the week on a tight budget to, you know dealing with the value conflicts of, of a board and you know, the people who are delivering the services to the customers. Okay. And so I think there's a, you know, I, identifying what those values are and mapping out those conflicts I think is a really important part of what we do. And we have, a process that we use called the storm process, which begins with understanding your stakeholder environment is what's your current situation from the perspective of all the different stakeholders involved and, and trying to understand where what happens if nothing changes with regards to the issue you're looking to address.

Andrew Tilling (31:17):

So understanding what their trajectory is, what their resources are, intel value, and empathy that we're bringing to the table in order to address this particular challenge. And once we've got a sense of that situation, then we're going to start shaping a target, which actually aligns with, the values and what's important to the various different stakeholders that we have, that we've as a group collectively moved to the center of our focus. So it becomes less about the, well, the shareholders say this, so it's that, right? And it becomes more about, well, these are the people who are essential to that issue and, and these are the values which are important to them, therefore, that, that must inform what we see a solution to look like. And that's, that's super powerful. So, and you know, I, I've spotted a, a question that's come up when people asking what's the, the, the top three things to bring a project to fruition in the most effective way, A really clear sense of where you are and where you want to be from a stakeholder's perspective, from a diverse stakeholder's perspective. I think it's absolutely crucial. We've got to define the gap in a healthy, broader view. So that's, that's definitely number one.

Matt Perez (32:24):

So do you bring, the investors or the owners or whatever the board basically into the conversation as well, or…

Andrew Tilling (32:33):

In some cases? Yeah, in fact, we had a really interesting moment where I was working with an organization that was looking to rebuild their vision and mission for a reinvention of the organization due to various different challenges they've experienced. And I remember a VC was in the mix who had some investment in the organization, and we were talking about the team and the various different challenges and, and the argument was kind of like, look, they were making was, was look, just forget trying to do anything inspiring. You know, just copy what your competitors are doing and take their website headings and recognize those are your priorities and just impose that on a new market and away you go, you know, keep it simple. And we were talking about the team and what they were invested in, what they wanted to do.

Andrew Tilling (33:20):

And you know, I just saw him write this note just basically saying, it's just irrelevant, you know? And I was just like, wow. You know, but you know what? When that guy left <laugh>, having voiced his thoughts, it's amazing how completely polar opposite direction everybody went for. Everybody went because it was actually, do you know what if, if that's, that's, we're going to create something so compelling that you can't say no to it because this is what we want to do. Because if the alternative is so uninspiring and flat, there's no purpose there. It's just money. But if we want to invest all this to this, this resource and talent, then let's do something really worthwhile. And it's, it's incredible what they're doing, but that shared sense of purpose, that real communicable sense of why is the second thing that I would say needs to be in there.

Andrew Tilling (34:07):

So yes, sometimes we do include people with those, you know who, who are shareholders, and they do have a clip perspective, but it's really also powerful to see their mind shift once they get closer to the people who are involved in that day-to-day and what you can learn from those. Well, I, I think the mirror neurons that are perhaps firing some of that connection that you were talking about, Matt, with regards to, you know, learning from someone who's kind of just a step ahead rather than someone who's way ahead. If you've got more connections there, more transfers. So bringing people into a space where transference can take place is a really big part of the discussion, which is sitting in circle, which is something we've done since we came out of the caves, right? It's we know how we,

Jose Leal (34:54):

We used to do it in the caves

Andrew Tilling (34:55):

And in the caves indeed. It was perhaps more cozy then as well. You know,

Jose Leal (35:00):

I, I know we're running out of time, Andrew, and.  but, I, want to, I want to ask a question because you said it earlier, aligned values and for some time now I've been wondering if that's really the answer to, to bringing people together. And something occurred to me today, as you said, aligned values. I wonder if this resonates with you. Is it aligned with values as much as it is aligned with perception? Is it that we are bringing to ourselves this approach of what we see together that then brings about this resonance of where we are? And, and we talk more about what we see, we see the impact, we see the people for what they are, we see the empathy with which we are connecting with people, and that, that aligned awareness is really where we might then say, oh, we have an aligned set of values or an aligned set of principles or whatever that might be. Does that resonate with you? I've never had this thought, but it really, it was your words that spurred that in, in my mind today.

Andrew Tilling (36:26):

So a couple of things on that. Yes, it really does. For me, the, the target setting, if you like, where it is that we want to go, we, use four Ps, which is, the first of all, Purpose, why we're here. The second is the Parameters. So in other words, those values that inform the parameters through which we are going to be creative. And it's, so therefore those values are also sometimes in conflict because that creates beautiful creative tension, right? Then inform that Perception. Just the third piece. So I love that you use those words, right? And that perception, it goes deeper than just visions. What we see here feel got a sense of how we, what we are articulating in our own mind, you know, when, you know, as we bring this vision about, and then once we've kind of gone deep there and everybody's contributing to that, what we then do is we create a pinpoint moment. Something where we, which proves to us that everything that we're trying to achieve has taken place. Now we then articulate that pin that really gets that kind of sense of where we are and where we want to be. But here's the crucial thing for leaders, we then let go of the how.

Andrew Tilling (37:37):

It's about asking people who have now bought into that journey, bless the story, let's celebrate the every evidence that we can find that suggests that you're capable of doing it. That, that, that it's happening, that change is happening, that positive impact is taking place, that we're moving along that, that our situation has moved always about doing everything you can to lend whatever influence you have, because it is by doing that, that you see all that influence and impact and, and, and profit be that through financial or indeed sense of accomplishment, land in that team that you are working with. And it's that shared experience that you've played your role in, that they have delivered with you. And that, that shared experience for me is, is the true definition of what a company mm-hmm.

Jose Leal (38:32):

<Affirmative> is.

Andrew Tilling (38:32):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.

Jose Leal (38:35):

Yeah. I, I love when Matt and I were writing the book, the book, oh, I got it on the wrong side. The book, the book we, one of the things that we you, you talk about different values and, and, and conflict. One of the things that we conflicted on was our, our view of, of using the word company or not, or companies. And Matt pointed out that he loves companies because it means it comes from breaking bread together.

Jose Leal (39:13):

Yeah, yeah. Right. And, so we've lost that, right? But coming back around to that, where we are breaking bread together and not I'm an employee of this fiat system that I need to obey in order to be able, to have my bread. It's a very different way of thinking about what a company is. Right? Breaking bread together means that we share the bread, not that the bread that I take home is based on whether I'm permitted to or not. And that's, I think the work that you're doing is making that difference, right? Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Tilling (39:58):

I certainly hope so. And or rather, I certainly hope that somehow I can contribute to helping the leaders and the facilitators and my team do that. It's their impact, it's their vision. You know, I've, I've many ways kind of said, Hey, look, this is how I think we can work together. What can we do with that? And that vision and that goal that I articulated earlier on, that's, that comes from my team, you know, my team.

Jose Leal (40:23):

Yes, yes. Might come…

Andrew Tilling (40:24):

From the team.

Jose Leal (40:25):

Yeah.

Andrew Tilling (40:26):

You know, and, you know, we've baked in things into the legal structure. Like, you know, we, the decisions that we make are made for the benefit of the stakeholders involved in the impact. So, that's in there. That gives me a little bit more of a sense of reassurance that, that how we start this little organization and as we grow it out , it's going to be able to keep some of those principles in mind. But I, I, you know, I, I want to really credit you guys because I mean, there's, I remember reading the 15 commitments of, of conscious leadership, which was the most difficult. Yeah. Easy to understand book I've ever read. You know, it's like difficult books. It really challenged me. But I, I really had a similar reaction in reading your work and having a sense of the very simple observation that you've made, but the profound impacts it makes in terms, of helping us rethink and, and to step away from what is, is very clear when you can see it. A system, which really doesn't work. And yes. To, think bigger and bolder more collaboratively and more open and, and have a clearer sense of the and, and consciousness of the, the impacts that we make, as individuals in this world. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And, particularly when we work so collectively with such tremendous potential for impact as a company can create, having a sense of those responsibilities and rethinking and doing so in a more responsible way is something which I think is long over g So my compliments to you both.

Matt Perez (41:55):

Thank you. Thank you so much for that. So next week's guest is Edgar Horse founder of G O t t Gathering of the Tribe's Fellowship. Don’t know much about it. So, we hope to learn more from Edgar and looking forward to that. And this has been terrific. I, I'm, I'm really because what you're doing, by the way, trying to transform corporations, not small companies, starting from scratch-kind of thing, but a big corporation is a bigger challenge that I was, that I've been willing to take on <laugh>. So, we have a lot to learn from you and your background I think is perfect for that kind of endeavor. Your, you, the theater and the social thinking and stuff like that, I think it all came together in the right place at the right time. So looking forward to staying, to staying in touch. Yeah. And learning more. And learning more. Yeah.

Andrew Tilling (43:08):

And likewise, from you both, thank you so much Freddy for your insights and for inviting me onto this forum. It's been really interesting, to really raise my thinking to, to somehow contribute to, your own. So, I deeply appreciate the opportunity. Yeah.

Matt Perez (43:23):

Thank you. Right. Thank you.