Mind Your Business And Stay Sober with Jason Fareas

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Recovery Catalyst Podcast. I'm your host, Kat York. And today we have a very special guest joining us. Jason Prias is a recovery counselor, a podcast host, an author, and an advocate whose work is grounded in both professional experience and lived recovery. After years in the corporate and compliance world, Jason redirected his career toward helping individuals and families affected by substance use disorder. He now works in clinical treatment, supporting clients through recovery, relapse prevention, personal accountability, and the rebuilding of meaningful lives. Jason is also the creator and host of a long-form recovery-focused podcast, where he speaks candidly about addiction, trauma, identity, relationships, and the often complicated path toward change. His forthcoming memoir, My Madness Method, expands upon those conversations by recounting his experiences with addiction, criminality, loss, survival, and recovery with honesty, humor, and perspective. At the center of his work is a simple purpose to help people feel less alone and to give individuals and families a more human understanding of addiction and recovery. And folks, if you have not checked out his podcast, also titled My Madness Method, you should highly check that out. And with that, I will welcome Jason.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

And we were having a nice conversation before we started here today.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Yeah, we were rolling.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

And like I I like giving introductions like that, but I feel that doesn't really doesn't like encompass you as like a human being. And so can you tell us a little bit about like who Jason is outside of that introduction?

ADHD, Meth, And A Quiet Mind

SPEAKER_03 2:15

Oh Lord. Jason. Jason is a um he's he's a little boy that that thought um he thought the world was against him. And he ultimately um you know was undiagnosed with ADHD until very late in life. But it makes a ton of sense because the first time I ever tried meth, my brain got very quiet and I was able to focus. And and and all of a sudden the world made sense, which is wild. Um and it became a crutch um from all the the emotional issues, trauma, I guess you want to call, um, that I was dealing with at that time. And it spiraled out of control for well over a decade. Um and once I finally found a way and a reason to stop using meth. My problem that I was left with is that I didn't address why I even used. And because I didn't deal with the reason why I used, it resurfaced. And because I had removed myself from that particular lifestyle, it had to manifest in a different way. And the way it wound up manifesting was through alcoholism because I had found my way into the corporate world, right? Because I was doing all the right stuff, right? Mr. Robot, move correctly, you know, uh, go to school, get good grades, be the great employee, and the whole thing. But all I found was that the world that I left of the drug world and the way that that operated translated over quite seamlessly to the corporate world, except for now, alcohol was the prevalent drug of choice, and it was very acceptable, right? And ultimately you wind up finding cocaine. I guess I say that like it's so seamless, like everybody that drinks does coat, right? And but for me, uh, and and I know that I'm not necessarily alone, but it's not it, it shouldn't sound as seamless as it does. But cocaine became a problem. And and I mean, it took losing almost everything to finally deal with the reason why I even used and ultimately became the driving force that not only keep me sober, but realized the corporate world's not where I belong. The the it gave value to everything I had been through, understanding why I even used. And from my perspective, from my experience, the people that figured out why they used were seemingly the ones that were able to get it right. You know, I didn't want to be the guy that white knuckled sobriety. I wanted to figure it out. You know, like don't get me wrong, it's it's like if you have to white knuckle it, but you stay sober and you stay alive, and with any luck one day you figured out, fantastic. But that wasn't the life I wanted to lead. I needed to understand why. And part of that was telling my story the way it happened, you know. If if if for no other reason to get it out of me. So that because sort of like we were talking before we hit record, it's it's it's telling it in a way that that it actually happened, not the digestible party story that we share with other people or express when when you know something comical is needed. Oh, check out this crazy thing I did. Like, okay, let's leave the shiny story uh alone and tell it like it happened.

Romanticising Addiction Stories

SPEAKER_00 5:55

No, and I one thing I love about your podcast, and I'm looking forward to to your book, your memoir, I should say, is that you don't you don't sugarcoat it, you know, you tell it like it is and you touch on something that is so important. And I'm curious, like it in your experience working in the in the clinical world as well, this is something that addicts and alcoholics tend to do, which is we romanticize like, oh, it was funny, you had to be there, like these big but was it really funny, or is that how we have to remember it to get through it?

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Right. Right. I uh how much of our memory is is really just a blip of what occurred, and then you filled it in with the polishing of the story. Like what occurred that led you to that place? Oh, yeah, yeah, right. Like you left that part out, you know. I deal with it kind of frequently where where the romanticizing starts, especially in a group setting when you're doing group therapy sessions and everybody starts the romanticizing, the the uh the one-upping, and I did this and the whole thing. But then when I push, right, because I'll I'll be honest with you, Kat, I am not what's known as a gentle therapist. Okay, like I'm I'm here for the ones that are coming in here to fight for your lives. You know, like like really, you know, when when some people come in and they're uh we'll go with difficult. Yeah, I know they're coming to my caseload because that's the anyway. But when I push, and I will, I will push to to some level of aggravation sometimes, but we wind up really getting the story, and just like you said, like you we wind up telling these stories in a way, and if you tell them enough times, you start to believe it yourself. And then you forget how bad it really was, right? And that's again that that thing we were talking about before is the permissive behavior and the permissive language and the the uh all that permissive you know insert activity. Um when we don't tell the story the way it happened, right? When we don't say it, and you start rebuilding, you know, your memory is now clouded with the shiny party story. And it's once we get past this need to minimize, or in some instances maximize, you know, because how how many things have you inflated simply out of um necessity? I don't know, is that the right word? You know, some of us need to glorify it to justify it. And sometimes it really wasn't that fun, it wasn't that funny and it wasn't that pretty, you know, but we don't want to tell it that way because the if you tell it the way it actually happened, it's really boring and kind of sad, and you know, nobody wants to hear that story.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

No, I I I've had moments like that where I've like, you know, you tell you like you're at a party, whatever, and you talk about how amazing that moment was, and you get home and you really sit down and it's just you, there's no friends, there's no music, and you're like that wasn't that much fun. That store that that event that was that was sad, that was bad, that was you know illegal. I I don't know, like you know, and like I like I'm curious, like when you're dealing with someone who's you know, we'll say let's say spicy and they're in their recovery, you know.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

It's my favorite.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

You know, how what is there a way that works for for for you to to help them, or is that something that has to happen more within?

Anger As Armour In Therapy

SPEAKER_03 10:00

I don't take a singular approach with anyone. Um I because there everybody's driving uh spiciness will go with. Um you know, there whether it's it's anger or or hatred or self-loathing or whatever it is, but I need it to expose itself. You know, for us to be able to talk about it, I need to create a scenario where you're gonna stop with the spiciness, right? That's a great blanket word, actually, by the way. That's um, but once we clear the uh the take the mask off, you know, and the do it stop being performative, what are we learning? You know, and once I can get down to the driving force, you know, what is what why are you so mad? Why are you scared? You know, like and and now I start tailoring the conversations, you know, um because I mean I've had some real like problematic clients, and I I know I'm not alone with that. Um, but when I get these people to start talking about some real stuff, they're just hurt little kids. You know, each one of us, and we touched on it before we started recording, but but each one of us has a version of us that has become very capable at protecting us. Okay. And you know, I always argue with my clients, I'm like, you cannot take me to the body of 15-year-old you. They're right here with me, right? And and the sooner that you accept and understand that every version of you that ever has been still is, then I can start having conversations and which one of you are you relying on to protect you, right? Because if you're getting confrontational with me, why are you doing that? Okay, um, is that really a 30-year-old's behavior or 40-year-old's behavior? No, in the grand scheme of things, that's not how quote unquote adults act, but yet you're doing it. So your behavior is more indicative of what age. And ultimately, it's somewhere between the ages of like nine and fourteen, right? And it's like, okay, well, then let me have a conversation with that version of you. And I don't go ahead, get loud, get mad. I'm I'm I'm here for it. Okay, don't break none of my stuff, but you can get loud. Okay. I'm very particular with my stuff. Like, let's go off this plane, okay? But if you need to yell or scream or cry, I don't, whatever it is, I want you to let it out. Let me have a conversation with that version of you. And it it seems to be what helps it get done. You know, um, and so those it's what's interesting is the ones that are more spicy, confrontational, angry, they seem to be the ones that want to talk the most. But what they've learned is you're just gonna abandon me anyway, just like the rest of them. And so I'm gonna push you away. I'm gonna show you that you don't care like you say you do. And they'll push and push and push and push until eventually you either give them what they're looking for so that they can be see. See, I told you you don't care because if you cared, you wouldn't have responded that way. It's like, man, you've been screaming at me for six weeks. What are you talking about? Right, would be a normal reaction, right? But at some point they realize, oh, this guy's not gonna cave. Okay, so okay, I told you you're not gonna break me. So now tell me what's going on. The the the most angry, the loudest, the hardest gangsters I've ever had in my office, by the time we get to talking, they're crying because they're just scared kids. We all, let's be honest, we are all just scared kids trying to figure this out. We're all here for the first time. It's our first ride on this rock, and none of us have instruction. And we're all waiting, we're all waiting for an adult to show up. Yeah. And at some point, once you realize, like, oh my god, I'm the adult, this is bad.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

I'm the adult, this is bad.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Okay, you know, and and you panic because someday you realize I'm the adult, I can do what I want, but I don't know how to behave because I'm using a 14-year-old version of myself as a protective mechanism.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

No, and you touch you touched on something like that I that like we're all kind of waiting, not necessarily for someone to save us, but for someone to be like, oh, it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

You know? And I I remember when my when my dad passed away, I immediately went back in time to that angry, like twelve year old person, and I end up like screaming at his tombstone one day. And I'm like, what are you doing? You know, he he what's he gonna do? Get up and yell back? Like you know what I mean? And so I like you touched on that, and that's those moments can be so profound when you're like oh wow. I I they can't help me, but I'm not alone. You know, and I like how you highlighted it's usually not I wanna say always, it's I don't think it's always the case, but it's usually the people with like the toughest exteriors and they're like like they they put on like this armor, whatever it could be, tattoos or or whatever, a diff any defense mechanism, and eventually if you show that you're gonna stay, they will let you in to help.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

Right. Yeah, like I've thrown everything at this guy, and he is still just sitting across from me smiling, you know, like all right. You know, it's it I get cautious when I get clients that are very well put together, present very well, smiling, have all the right answers. You're like, ugh, you know, like those are way harder to crack, you know, to get them to talk because they've polished theirs. You know what I mean? Their whole persona is very polished and very controlled. And, you know, it's so that's why I kind of chuckle to myself when they're like, yo, this person's difficult. And I'm like, nah, they're really not, they're just loud, you know. And they're just loud. Yeah. Uh yeah, I I kind of jokingly tell everybody like I could get my chair to admit to me their biggest problems, you know, and I don't know what I don't know. I have no idea where like I it's just my my intent is always to make sure that everybody around me feels safe. And I don't mean in like an imposing physical sense that you know when we're having a conversation that you're safe and you can say whatever you need to say. I don't you want to yell at me and call me, like I'm I'm okay with it. Like, I'll help you. You need some, like I'll give you some words. You know, like I'm here for it. Um because I got into this industry because I care, not because not because I witnessed it, not because I experienced it, because I was it. You know, there was a point in my life where there's two instances specifically that I accepted death as an addict. Like this is how I'm gonna die. And I I accepted it. And the fact I'm still here, like I've I'm there's nothing you can say to me that I haven't said to myself. So when you gas yourself out, okay, I'm still gonna be sitting here, you know, and I've seem to have a bit of success with it. You know, my first client I've ever gotten, I've only been in this industry as a clinician for just over a year. And my first client that was ever assigned is completing his whole year of treatment, and I I'm completing him tomorrow. And it's a very proud moment. You know, to to see somebody like complete a whole year of treatment and stay sober and the whole so it's it's very rewarding, you know. I take the wins where I can get them.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

That that is a huge because a year, I mean a day is a huge achievement, a year is even especially when you're in there and doing the work.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

And you're really facing these difficult things that led us where we are, it's the root of the issue. Yeah. And like you touch on something like he he's graduating, which is beautiful.

Life After Treatment And Accountability

SPEAKER_00 18:59

And how do you approach like preparing someone for what comes after treatment when kind of that when like another safety net is kind of pulled away? Like, how do you prepare them for that?

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Well, we've been myself and this particular gentleman, and I've got a few folks that coming up in the next six to ten weeks that are completing their full year of treatment as well. And it's talking about it now, almost hitting them with like I I um challenge them to do things that that I know they should probably be expecting to happen, whether that be, hey, you're not going to meetings yet. I'm gonna need you to secure a sponsor. I'm gonna let you know, let's sign a release. I want to have a conversation with this sponsor, and we start months, months in advance, you know. Really also because you know, I'm not gonna wait until a couple of weeks before completion for them, because most of them by the six, seventh month mark, are uh treatment fatigued, you know. Right. So I'm losing them already just because they're so tired of it, you know. So when I start talking about completion stuff, they're re-engaged. And now we start doing like real life activities. I'm gonna need you to get into meetings. Okay, you don't do meetings, okay. What are we gonna do? Okay, if if you're you know, because some people are like, I'm not doing meetings. Okay, fine. Okay, you know, and then I start warning them. I'm like, listen, you can be as rejecting to the 12 steps as you want. You can either do them in order in the rooms or life is gonna drag you through them. Okay, and and I say this because I resisted the 12 steps and life drug me through them. Yeah, okay. It's how it's gonna work, and that they should include that in the how it works.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

You know, one way or another, you're doing them.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Right, right, right, right. It's it's what it is. You can kick and scream the whole way, it's still happening. Um, but it's it's to set them up for success, it's challenging them to do the things that are going to be coming before they come. You know, are we working? Are we stable in our work? Are you paying your bills? Are you uh have you, you know, I mean, are you in a relationship? How's that going? Should we do some family sessions here? Um, which when I say should we, it's kind of we are, you know, it's it, yeah. You're being voluntold that we're doing family sessions, right? Voluntold like that. So, you know, it most of the time, you know, like spouses are very much supportive um to some degree, you know, but we need to start working through that accountability piece, you know, and I start sharing with clients like, look, you've been coming here for a year, and in that year, you You have evolved. But the people that love you the most have not experienced the evolution as it has happened, right? For however whatever duration of time you've been here. Now, most of them are living in housing and the whole thing. So they've been separated for the most part. That's not a blanket, but for the most part, you've been in treatment for X amount of time. They have not seen this evolution. When you go home, they have still been living their lives. And what you have taught them how to watch you, how to listen to you, how to experience you, they have to unlearn that. And you've been here changing. So when you go home, they're still going to watch you and talk to you and listen to you the way you left. And that's a that's a dangerous, you know, because when you're fighting and you're like, look at how good I am. I'm so good now, and you're still holding me accountable. Well, this is a family disease that you came to heal and they kept living their life. So understand that when you're still being held accountable of the version you taught them you were, they have to unlearn this. You know, and I have this conversation with the family and with the client because if you're struggling at your one-year mark, right? That's the number, right? That's the danger zone. Right. And you get asked, but but how are you really? You know, I noticed you this, that, and the other. And they go, well, see, why am I doing this? Wait, you're still thinking I'm that person. Well, they have to unlearn this. This isn't just a you thing. You've taught people how to deal with you.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

You know, and that's those are really kind of the core things I try to set up is making sure that I, you know, I need you to understand that everybody's still gonna kind of treat you the way they treated you when you left because they haven't experienced this evolution the way you have.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

No, that's powerful because and I'm happy that you do you do the family sessions because I don't think all facilities do that. I think it's they focus on the person with a substance disorder. And then, well, when you get out, then you can work on your on your family and interpersonal relationships. But you but you highlighted something, people their lives kept going. You know, and even whether even if it's jail, like your life their lives kept going, so they're not gonna and you kind of have to in a lot of people's eyes re-prove yourself. And so I guess my question to you is like, do you think it's a matter of the individual who's who's in recovery to prove themselves, or do you think it's more on the family to to not say lower expectations, but remove those like cards?

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Like they're looking so the I guess the answer is kind of yes. So um, because the client themselves, I I need I I kind I really work with them to try to understand for themselves that if you've made it to the point of requiring requiring treatment or or incarceration, you've pretty much beaten your word all the way up. Okay, your words are no longer going to work. Everything you do from here on out is action, okay. Everything you do from here on out is action. And then when the family um sessions come in, helping them understand that this is gonna be a process and and to be mindful of what was, right? Because we can't be sitting here, you know, hey, spouse's wife, he's on his way home. Don't you pick on him? Like they've still got some things, whatever damage that this person caused before they came to treatment still exists and it needs to be dealed, excuse me, dealt with. Right. So understanding that the the client needs to not try to explain themselves too much and just keep doing the right thing, and then the family to understand that they need to give some space. Well, they don't need to do anything, right? They it's recommended to give them the space to achieve, right? Don't don't really coddle them. Let's, you know, like if if with any luck, if there's any serious things that need to be talked about, we're doing that together. So we've set we've set some boundaries on the way home. You know, the spouse can set their boundaries, kids can set their boundaries. Hey, parent, um, this is what happened, and it really scared me, and so on, and I'm gonna need some time to really deal with this and so on. Like, in order to approach this appropriately, like everybody needs to be given the opportunity to understand what's going to occur next, right? Instead of just going, all right, good job. You've been here for a year, good luck. Give me a call if it goes bad. Like, that's not that's not that's not gonna work, right? Um, but these clients that need to understand, nobody's listening to anything you say anymore. And I I don't, it sounds again, it sounds so ominous, right? But nobody's listening. You've beat your word up, okay? Everything's action from this point. And with any luck, the family shouldn't be treating him with kit gloves. The family should be living their life and reintegrate this person into it and find yourself a therapist because we're done, right? With any luck, we've we've touched on some things of importance. With any luck, everybody is willing to go seek treatment. And we in the um in the discharge planning, we have arranged, you know, a treatment for them for the family. Like now go heal together because this is a family disease.

Family Healing And Relapse Conditioning

SPEAKER_03 28:05

One of you, one of you had the symptoms and all of you suffered the consequences.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Now, does your um does your facility or do you recommend um like Al Anon to the families?

SPEAKER_03 28:19

Oh sure. Here's I recommend anything, whatever works, whatever I'm very accepting of every perspective as long as it's something, okay. And I can give you, like if anybody asks me for my opinion on, I'll give you, I can give you both sides. You know, I was very resistant to the 12-step program, okay. And but I also understand I was resistant to it because I wasn't ready to get sober. So of course it wasn't gonna work for me. I wasn't ready. Right, you know, and life, like we had just said, drugged me through the 12 steps. I kind of wish I had done it the right way. It would have, it would have been cleaner. Okay. Yeah, you know, um, Al Anon, family therapy. Are are your kids? How old are your kids? How are they affected? Which should we find them a therapist? Um, couples counseling, individual therapy, do you need EMDR? Do you need um, you know, what what kind of specialties? Like if you've been using for 15, 20, 30 years and you've been in treatment for one year, one year is a long time.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

It's gonna need more, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

And I I like that because you know, I think sometimes I think sometimes clinicians and even like alcoholics, addicts forget that the the because I'm an alcohol alcoholic myself, we forget the damage that we did. It goes back that selective memory of like what you know, and so then you look like why is my kid acting out? Why doesn't my husband trust me? You know, and so I it's I I'm glad that you highlight that it is important for the family to get help, you know, because we forget that there there's damage too, there's wreckage too. Right. And it's not just you don't fix it because it doesn't get fixed because someone got treatment.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

You know, you're you're learning how to live again with a whole new person while trying to work through all that happened. Those are not that's not an easy task.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

No, and the people in your life have to see that they're that they're free to heal.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

You know, and that doesn't they don't even start being able to evaluate that for themselves until you come home. You know, so if you've been gone, like my my treatment center is a is a eight to twelve month program, okay. Um, so if you've been gone for eight to twelve months with some family visits and so on, right? But your family is still head shy until you come home and they start observing that they are they are safe to begin to heal because how many times, I don't know about you, but relapse was sort of a hobby of mine for a while.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

You know, I have a lot of 24 hour points. And and so then not only have we taught them how we are as addicts, but we've also taught them about relapse so that we've conditioned them to, oh, everything's good, oh, everything's bad again. Everything's good, oh, everything's bad again. So when you go home, they're gonna say, oh, everything's good. Uh-oh, is it gonna go bad again? And how long am I gonna hold on to the wait for it to go bad again? Oh, now I start seeing everything's okay, okay. I start feeling a little safe to start healing a little bit. And then they'll observe something that was a tell for you. You know, whatever we all had a tell. Like for my kids, loud music in the car or loud music in the house was always like something was happening or something was about to happen. And so when I play loud music now, my kids are they even tell me, like, dad, I still trip off that, you know. And I mean it's been years now, but this is something that it was conditioned. So, I mean, this takes time, you know. It took years for them to learn this about me and how to how to keep themselves safe. And and I say that, like, I was a very happy drunk, okay? Like I was always loud music, cooking, cleaning, being obnoxious, like having two, but nonetheless, I was still drunk dad. You know. Um, but they still watch and look, and is it still safe? Am I still safe? You know, and it was years of conditioning for them to understand this is how to watch that. You know.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

And that's and that's

Vulnerability Through Podcasting And Memoir

SPEAKER_00 33:05

hard. And you know, when when you started, because you have you have your podcast, which I want to touch on, because I I really do love your podcast because it's you're telling your story, and that is not an easy task to do. And I mean, first of all, I'm surprised how much you remember, you know, like legitimately, because I'm like sometimes like there's like years I'm like, yikes, I don't even remember like 26 like you know, and you and you tell it and it's real and it's authentic. And but there's you know, there's there's lessons in it.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

And I feel that that's something we can all can take from is your story and what you've been through and your journey. It's very hard to put these things out there. And if people think writing a book is hard, yeah. Hit hit hit record and publish. And it gets a little scary, you know, to get that out there.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

You know, it it is weird because I'm telling this story and it's very vulnerable. And and really what this is, each episode I do I do two things. I I hit record and start speaking from basically where I left off in the last one. And based on whatever I talk about, is what I go back and I record the intro because this is what I learned from this is what I learned today about this event. This is how this event molded who I am, you know, and being that kind of vulnerable, because it's almost like letting everybody be the fly on a wall in my therapy session. And I've shared in some of my episodes when I am having an epiphanous moment or when I'm having an emotional moment because I just realized something, you know. Um, and then it's like, is anybody gonna listen? You know, so it's not it's almost scarier in some instances to think that I just bared my soul to the world and what if nobody listens? You know, and like you know, so there's there's two things. What if everybody listens? That's scary. What if, but what if nobody does? And like, so yeah, like publishing anything like that is super frightening because I'm still an addict, right? Like I still have flaws and I still have uh insecurities, you know. But being that raw, and then if nobody listens, it's like, you know, but you know what? I didn't do this. Um God's honest truth. I told my my producer once, I told him if one person listens, if it helps one person, then it was all worth it. He has to remind me of that as numbers kind of climb and and they're not astronomical. I really wish they were higher, but they'll they'll find their way there. They will get there. Yeah, but I have had people reach out and tell me that this helped. And I'm like that, that's it. I I'm I achieved it. I'm good.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Oh, and like being now you've you've been through a lot, and again, if you haven't listened to Jason's podcast, you need to you need to dial into that. And you've had quite a journey, and we've only touched on a very small part of it. And when you were when you were sitting down, so I'll touch on your memoir for a little bit. When you're sitting down to write your memoir, my madness method, how was that different for you versus like speaking it in?

SPEAKER_03 36:39

So that's a very interesting question because I'm actually kind of struggling right now with it because I did the podcast because my ADHD is like super, it's uh pretty out of control most times. So the idea of writing a book was like off the table, right? The first time I sat down to start writing it, I was like 30 pages in and hadn't said a thing. Okay. I mean, everything was eloquently written and the whole thing, and I'm all these pages, and I'm like, I haven't told any story yet. Okay. So I was like, I'm gonna speak it um because I do like to talk, you know, and I I think there was a uh there's an ability to deliver emotion where it was needed, you know. So I took the transcripts and I had them, and and then I started doing it again myself, and I was like, I'm doing it again, I'm adding too much. So I hired a guy and I spoke the all the details to him, and he started writing, and then his life kind of got in the way. And so anyway, I've just been I I'll be honest with you, I've really been struggling with the memoir part because now my my uh my producer is now kind of doing a rough read of what I have done, and he's like giving more suggestions, and it's just like so much more than I it's it's so hard for me to write a book because it's hard for me to focus like that. Um, that it becomes very overwhelming. And and because it is my story, and and he puts in somewhere like add more detail here. I'm like, you're talking like I I can't, because if I add more detail, this book is gonna get out of control because I was there, you know, it's gonna look like war and peace by the time we're done. Okay, because I can't stop adding detail. And so to be perfectly honest, it's a fantastic question because um I am struggling a bit to really button this up to hand it off for like for to shop it, you know, but it is it's close, it's so close. But I, you know, because it is my story and it's very personal, like having somebody tell me there's not enough detail here or it needs clarification and all this, and like, but this is my story, it makes perfect sense right here. Like, here, can you take this?

SPEAKER_00 39:08

You just put it into here.

SPEAKER_03 39:09

Take this out of my brain. Can you hold that for me? You know?

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

I need whatever that spell is in Harry Potter where they put their wands to their head and they pull the memories out. I need that.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Oh, yeah, yeah, that'd be helpful.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Yeah, it'd be super helpful if I could get that.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Yeah, like I mean, I I I love what you're doing. I love how authentic you are with everything, and like really trying to get it. Doesn't feel it would have feel like to me, like from the outside looking at this is my perspective. It really feels like you're on not only just like a journey of like recovering, but like discovering of like of like who you are, and not even necessarily working through trauma and all that, but like discovering who you are and really going through everything really part of the pun methodically.

Loving Every Version Of Yourself

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Um you know, and I think that that it takes an enormous amount of presence, focus, and strength, and and also work to get to that point to be doing the podcast, to be doing the memoir, to be helping people in recovery. And you know, when you when you look at what you're doing as far as like the podcast and the memoir and and the recovery and helping other people other people if you could look back and tell you know the younger Jason who was like struggling with addiction, that what would you tell him right now? Like who you are?

SPEAKER_03 40:47

That uh that we figure it out, you know, it it gets better. I am not one of those people that say if I could go back, I would change it. I wouldn't change a thing, not a thing. A whole bunch of it was terrible, okay. But as a young man, a young boy, a young adult, I mean, I hated what I was, who I was, the way I looked, the way I all of it. Like I just I didn't feel I found some way, somehow, to love everything about myself. All the flaws, the anxiety, the the the flare-ups of of anger and traffic because I got horrible, like patience is not a virtue of mine by any stretch, okay? And it's and I accept all of it, you know. And what's wild is I also accept everybody around me. Like I don't argue with anyone, you know, I don't I don't look for negativity and I don't find it. I look for positive, I find it. Life is hard, I accept it. And it's it's through having told this podcast, and like I was saying before, like um, it's really like my therapy. Like I've shared my therapy sessions with the entire world, the rawest version, and on the other side of saying things that you've been hiding, even from yourself, saying them, hearing yourself process it, giving yourself grace and telling you, like, yo, you lived through that. That's crazy. Okay, but you lived. I can't believe that's wild. And and and you made it, and it's who I am. This is my story, like this is my life. I wouldn't trade, I wouldn't trade it for anything. And so, I mean, the best thing I could tell young version of me is that it gets better. Like, this side is it's beautiful over here, but it took it took everything, every other version of me ever went through to get here. And I appreciate all of them for all the stupid decisions and all the good ones and all the great stories and all the bad ones, like they all collectively mounted to a version of life that I absolutely adore. And the amount of love that I have for everyone. Like, like, I literally, it's wild. Like, I'm such like I just want to hug everyone. And and and just let them know it's it's gonna be okay. It's okay. Everything's okay. Be kind, okay. Be kind to yourself, be kind to others, be kind to nature, feed yourself properly, hydrate properly, speak nice to yourself, and watch how great life gets.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

You you said something that I really love, and I don't think I've heard it before. Which is like celebrate all the versions of yourself. You know, even when you were in in you know, when even when you were using you know, you call the versions, you don't hide those versions, you celebrate them, you learn from them. You know, you don't want to go back to that, but you acknowledge they're still there. Like even in your counseling sessions, you said, you know, okay, which version of this person am I talking to?

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

You know, and I and I've not heard that before because usually it's like, oh, we're dealing with, you know, 40-year-old Kathy. You know, it's like, no, we're who are we really dealing with? And what does she have to tell me or tell us?

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Right. When when Kathy gets escalated in whatever scenario, okay, do you behave at this age or do you want to lash out? Right? And if you want to lash out, what version of you were you most known to lash out? Right? That's that's probably that version of you stepping in, going, can I got this? Let me take everything. And you got it, no, baby, I got it. You know, and I mean, these are the struggles. This is why, this is why cravings are a problem, okay? Because 40, 50, 30-year-old us all know better. Okay, but there's a that version of us that we relied on to protect us from X, Y, and Z scenarios are really at it, they're really good at it. And it's why relapse is so hard, is because that version of us that's been used to protect us from an emotion or an event or a situation, whatever it is, they're so good at it that it's almost hard to resist. You know.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

And so I I love this conversation. I really have, and you've been so grace, graceful with your time, and you've given us a lot here today. And you really have. I don't I don't think you think you have, but I you really have.

SPEAKER_03 45:54

Thank you. I appreciate that. I love I love the opportunity to have a conversation about this because the world just needs to know it's gonna be all right, man. Like, you know, everything has its purpose, everything's for a reason, even the bad stuff. It's it's it all has value. What are you gonna do with it? That's a completely different conversation. You know, if you want to reject negativity in your life, then you have to accept the fact there's gonna be some and you need to make the best out of

The Mind Your Business Movement

SPEAKER_03 46:34

it.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Yeah, no, it's I I I kinda I gotta chuckle, and this is a little off topic, but I was looking at your Instagram today, and you had and you were and you had this thing, you're starting a movement.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Yeah, yeah, right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

And I love and you can tell, I'll let you tell it because it's gonna be far funnier if you do it.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

Okay, so do you mind if I say the whole thing?

SPEAKER_00 46:57

No, you can say it, it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

Okay, so I said let's start a movement, and we're gonna call it mind your fucking business. Okay. And the reason and and I mean, if it does not directly affect you, you gotta let it go. Okay. We are so concerned with what your neighbor's doing, with the people online, with what Jay-Z and Beyonce are doing, with with what the government's doing, what other governments are doing, but yet we're not focusing on ourselves. We will sit and have absolute investment in people's lives that have no idea we exist, and we are not that invested in our own selves. And so I think if we all just collectively, in a very beautiful way, minded our own business, quit worrying about who somebody wants to marry, and quit worrying about uh uh who's adopting who and who said something about something. If we could just collectively stop worrying about what the next guy's doing and put that same focus on ourselves, the amount of things that I think would improve would be vast. So I'm just like the movement is mind your fucking business. I don't know. Keep it on yourself. And and and again, I mean that in a very beautiful way. Yeah, don't be don't be an asshole to people, be kind to everybody and everything, and and just watch what happens. Like, give me a month, give me a month of doing it. You know what I mean? And watch, it'd be crazy. Take it global after that. Yeah, and then and then we'll take it global. You know what I mean? Hey, hey, this country, that country, if you could do us a favor, mind your business, we're gonna mind ours.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Everybody you need shirt that says that with a hashtag. You need a shirt that says that. Like, I feel like we need that, like, especially like when you start like when you finish your book and you go on like your book tour, like you know, like I feel like I don't know, I could feel I could see that being a thing for you. Like, I can see that like getting into like your books and and all that, and I love that. And I would I would love to ask you.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Tell me.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

I don't know if you do or if you don't.

One Less Thing And Calming Anxiety

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Do you have any any quotes or sayings that you that resonate with you that you use?

SPEAKER_03 49:12

I I do, and I tattooed it on my neck. Um, and it says one less thing. And I found that I say it a lot, and it's because one, when I struggle with anxiety, and I my anxiety was bad, bad, bad. And then I started analyzing it, and I realized that I had this laundry list of things that needed to get done, and it became so long and so ridiculous, and it became overwhelming, and it the the anxiety would kick in of all these things that I gotta do. And then when you took care of one, you were like, Oh, oh, that wasn't that bad. Let me do another one, you know, or sometimes you do one, you take care of two, or when or and and then in a completely separate scenario, if you take care of something, and while you're there, I do this thing, it's one less thing you gotta do. Yeah, when when you continue to take care of the things you need to take care of just one at a time, be mindful of the things you gotta do. Having one less thing to deal with is endlessly important.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

I love that, and it's so simple. It's not like you know, I know that you got it tattooed on you. It's a nice reminder every single day.

SPEAKER_03 50:27

It it was so important to me because having one less thing to worry about is what everybody needs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

I think that falls in line with a mind-your fucking business.

SPEAKER_03 50:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

Yeah, it's it we all could collectively use one less thing to worry about.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

I love that.

Jason’s Podcast, Help, And Closing

SPEAKER_00 50:48

I would love to give you an opportunity to talk, you know, to promote your podcast, your book, anything else you're working on.

SPEAKER_03 50:56

Yeah. Um, so my podcast is called My Madness Method. We've touched on that a couple of times. Um, it's on like 43 different platforms. I cannot name them all. Um, but it's Spotify is kind of the main one I shuffle everybody to. It is on Apple Music as well. Um, I think the only thing that I ask it, one, please listen. I would appreciate. Um, and then by all means, in every at the end of every episode, I leave a way to get a hold of me. If you need help, if you just want to talk, if you need to vent, like I'm here for it. Anyone can reach out. Like I've had people reach out to me, and I'm on the East Coast. I've had people from the West Coast reach out because they needed help getting in recovery and in treatment centers, and I've helped them do that. Like I've I like I'm serious about doing this. Like I'm not just telling a story and giving, like, I'm here to help, you know. Um, but the one thing I ask is once you once you go on and you like it and and you you you're on there, I need you to sort from oldest to newest because if you start listening at the the most recent one, it ain't gonna make a look of sense. Gotta start all the way at the beginning because it is told in chronological order. Um so yeah, that would be my one ask. Please listen, please listen in chronological order. Uh the book, I mean, I really was hoping it was gonna be done by this year. Um I'm trying. I am trying. And what what the book is is the it's the the podcast with more detail. It's just told because each my each of my episodes is between 25 and 40 minutes long. Um but it leaves out a lot of like the juicy stuff, meaning like the description of the area, really, you know, and and so it just gives more more legs to the story where you know it would take a 40-minute episode if I were to tell it like it was in the book, it'd be an hour and a half long episode. So I'm I'm doing the best I can. I got you know, I got a lot going on, but I am gonna try to get it done.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

And I'm gonna have the links um in the show notes as well as how to listen to um to Jason on Spotify Apple Podcast. Um and I uh first I want to thank you because uh you've given me a lot of your time and I appreciate your time. That is the most valuable resource I believe that we have is our time. Amen that and you give it and you spend, I've I've really enjoyed talking with you because it's like talking to I feel like there's a there's like when you're talking to someone who's in recovery and he's lived it, there's there's like an understanding, like a something there. You know, I I I just I appreciate your time. And you know, when you when I reached out to you and I sent me back, like it's probably one of the nicest emails I think I ever got. So if anyone is like ever hesitant to reach out to Jason, I can promise you you're gonna get something lovely back. And you know, there was there there's um there's like a there's like a little small paragraph that I just want to read. And I think this kind of encompasses like I feel I feel like this describes our conversation and even you. You know, it's it says, hey cat, I also wanted to let you know that there are genuinely no questions off the table. Recovery, addiction, relapse, trauma, family, faith, failures, successes, the podcast, my work as a substance use counselor, my personal story, or anything else you believe would benefit your audience is fair game. I have found that the most meaningful conversations are honest ones, and my hope is that your listeners leave our conversation feeling understood, challenged, encouraged, and perhaps just a little more hopeful than when they press play. And I think that is just like a perfect place to end because I don't know. I think that just I think that wraps it up real nice.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

I appreciate your time, Kat. I really, really enjoyed this, and I I I'm thankful to for us to have gotten this time.

SPEAKER_00 54:57

Thank you so much, Jason, and um everyone else, we'll see you next time.