Twelve Step Journey to Inner Safety

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Caller Cat podcast, where we share honest stories

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of resilience and recovery.

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I am Cat York, and my mission is to hold a supportive, honest space for candid discussions

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on addiction, healing, and breaking the mold.

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Whether you are exploring sobriety, navigating challenging family cycles, or working toward

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finding self-love and empowerment, these conversations are for you.

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My hope is that we can connect, heal, and learn what it truly means to redefine our

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story.

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As a gentle reminder before I introduce our guests, the Caller Cat podcast is for informational

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purposes only.

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The views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own personal opinions and do not

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constitute professional advice.

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Please consult with a licensed professional for any medical, legal, or psychological concerns.

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Today we welcome Barb Nangle.

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Barb is a boundaries coach, a speaker, an author, and a podcast host who specializes

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in helping women build internal safety for lasting boundaries.

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She transformed her own life through 12-step recovery at age 52, healing from codependence

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and shedding over 100 pounds.

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She now empowers women to break patterns of self-neglect and use inner change to drive

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societal impact through boundary coaching and her podcast, Fragmented 2 Pole, and I

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love that name.

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So please welcome Barb.

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Hi, Barb.

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How are you today?

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Good.

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Thanks, Cat.

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I'm really excited for this conversation.

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I am, too.

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I've been looking forward to talking to you because this is such an important topic to

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talk about.

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Mm-hmm.

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And first, I want to add, is there anything you'd like to add to your bio that I missed?

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No.

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I'm sure that other things will come out as I share sort of my story and my experience.

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There's a lot.

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Obviously, I'm 63, so my, you know, my bio can only contain so much.

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Right.

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So where, do you want to get into a little bit of where it started with you, the therapy

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and the personal development?

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Yeah.

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Sure.

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So actually, what I'd like to do is start at age 52 when I hit a codependent bottom

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and then the past will be filled in from there.

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How's that sound?

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That's perfect.

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Okay.

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So when I was 52, I was working at Yale University as a program coordinator for urban education

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programs, mostly college access programs.

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I'm a sociologist by training, and I had volunteered to co-lead a project serving homeless people

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through my church.

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And right around the time that project was starting, a homeless guy named Dan started

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coming to my church as a parishioner.

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And he and I became very friendly and I felt like it was like a godsend so that I could

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come to understand the plight of homeless people from an actual homeless person so that,

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you know, when I was running this project, I would be serving homeless people, not quote

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the homeless.

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And he actually was quite helpful in that regard.

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And I don't know, maybe like two or three months into our friendship, we had a really

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big snowstorm here in New Haven, Connecticut.

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And I invited Dan to stay at my home, which I now know is not normal.

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So he absolutely hated homeless shelters.

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I'm sure nobody likes them, but he normally wouldn't stay in them.

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But in a massive snowstorm, you kind of have to.

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So of course, he said yes, and he stayed at my home and then he stayed another time and

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another time.

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And within a few weeks, he was practically living with me and I soon felt trapped in

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my own home.

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So Dan was an admitted alcoholic and drug addict.

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I now think on reflection, he also had some kind of personality disorder.

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By the way, Kat, can I swear on your podcast?

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Oh, yeah, you're fine.

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Okay.

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So this guy fucked with my head in a way I had never experienced in my life.

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And I was in therapy one day talking with my therapist and the middle of a sentence,

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I went, Oh my God, do you think I need to go to Al-Anon?

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And she was like, yes.

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So I don't know what I put into Google Kat, but whatever I put into Google looking for

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Al-Anon, the word codependent came up and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what?

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Now I had started therapy at 15.

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So that was 37 years.

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I wasn't in therapy continuously for 37 years.

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But the vast majority of that time I was, I got introduced to the whole self-help genre

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when I was like 22, 23 and read voraciously in that.

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I had done workshops and workbooks and seminars and retreats and spiritual groups.

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And I was like, how do I not know this word codependent?

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And so just in case, I know that this is a recovery podcast, but not everybody understands

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codependence.

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And I'll just say like my understanding of codependence is when you are so focused on

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everyone and everything outside of yourself that you really don't even pay attention to

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what's going on inside of you, whether it's your feelings, your desires, your bodily functions,

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so many people who are codependent will hold it when they have to go to the bathroom because

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it's like they don't want to disturb anybody or whatever.

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So when we're totally focused on ourselves, so I started going to Codependence Anonymous

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and I very quickly felt a sense of relief.

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I think knowing this is a thing that people recover from it, that there's a program and

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all that.

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And about six weeks into going to CODA, I went up to Cape Cod, Massachusetts to visit

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some longtime friends, one of whom had been in Alcoholics Anonymous, but at that point

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she'd been in AA for 10 years.

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And she had always just raved about how dramatically her life had been turned around by AA.

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And I was like, you're going to love this.

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I'm in Codependence Anonymous.

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And she was like, oh, great.

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Let's see if we can find a CODA meeting while you're here.

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And she couldn't, but she found an ACA meeting, which I knew of as ACA, Adult Children of

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Alcoholics, which never occurred to me that I qualified for.

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But her dad was an alcoholic.

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She's like, I've never been.

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I've always thought of going.

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So I was like, I'll go for you.

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Now, meanwhile, in my first few weeks in CODA, I remember saying to someone who could have

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been Dan, I'm not sure.

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I remember saying, I think I need to be reparented, but I have no idea, Kat, where I got that

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phrase from, that idea of reparenting.

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I think I thought I made, I don't know.

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So I walk into the ACA meeting and in the opening reading, they said, we reparent ourselves.

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And I was like, what?

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And they read the list of the 14 traits of an adult child, which is affectionately called

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the laundry list.

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And I was bowled over.

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Now, my friend Heidi that brought me tells me that I sobbed the whole meeting.

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I don't remember that, but I do remember buying the literature, coming home to New Haven,

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and starting going to ACA meetings, which by the way, that fellowship just in the last

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month or so has changed its name to it's ACAD, Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional

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Families.

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So it used to be called Adult Children of Alcoholics years and years ago, but they realized

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that you don't have to be from a family of addiction to develop the traits of an adult

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child.

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It can be like a violent family.

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It can be a super militaristic family.

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It can be a family where there's chronic illness, mental illness, super religiosity,

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like all kinds of stuff can cause people to have the traits.

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So I start going to ACA and I was like, oh my God, this is it.

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This is what I have been looking for my whole life.

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I was reading through the fellowship text, which we call the big red book.

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And I was like, oh my God, this is what happened.

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This is what happened.

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That's what happened.

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That's what quote happened to me.

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But I felt like, oh my God, were they filming the inside of my head and I'm going to meetings

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and I'm hearing some recovery at the same time.

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It was pretty clear that at the time I was going back then, the people in the rooms objectively

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had it way worse than me.

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I didn't have the shit kicked out of me.

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I didn't get my bones broken.

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I didn't get raped.

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I didn't get told I was a piece of crap, but I knew that I had the traits.

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So I kept kind of almost like making excuses for why it was okay for me to be there.

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And they also kept talking about trauma.

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And I was like, huh.

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And my understanding back then of trauma was just the trauma that most people know about

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where like you're in a hurricane or you're in a car accident or you're in a wall.

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That's like blunt trauma or what sometimes people call big T trauma.

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But what happens with adult children is what is sometimes referred to as little T trauma

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or relational trauma.

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It's sort of like the drip, drip, drip of emotional invalidation.

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And really it's about abandonment.

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Sometimes it's literal physical abandonment.

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Like your parents left or were never there or you're put up for adoption or whatever.

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But for everybody, it's emotional abandonment and it's about our caregivers not being able

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to be there for us to support our emotional development.

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And this is not to blame them because they did what was done to them.

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But in any case, I started finding out all this stuff about myself.

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And I soon, a women's ACA meeting started very soon after that.

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I started going to that.

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That meeting still exists.

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I still go to that meeting.

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And then I got into a 12-step group.

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Me and three other women decided to use the ACA 12-step workbook and work through the

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steps.

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And my transformation was just unbelievable.

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It was really incredible.

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I had absolutely no idea how dysfunctional my family was.

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And I especially had no idea how dysfunctional I was.

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Because I looked on the outside like I had it together.

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I owned a home.

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I had a career.

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I had a master's degree.

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I volunteered.

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I paid my taxes.

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So I looked.

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But meanwhile, I drank abusively until I was in my early 40s.

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And then I just sort of stopped.

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And then once I started again, I really just barely drank.

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I smoked bales of weed.

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I lied about smoking cigarettes for years.

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And then, of course, all the toxic relationships I was in.

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I just did not have a well-lived life.

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But on paper, you know, it looked really good.

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And so about a year into my journey in ACA, I had still been going to CODA meetings.

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But I just went to one meeting a month.

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I didn't do any work outside of the program.

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I didn't get together with people outside of the program.

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Whereas I really dove into ACA and decided to let CODA go.

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Because it really was maybe, excuse me, like a 75% fit, whereas ACA was 100% fit.

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And that turned out to be like a higher-powered moment for me.

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Because one of the women in my 12-step group had started sharing in our step group about

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her relationship with food and about the way she was thinking about food and her behavior.

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And I was aghast.

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I was just like, oh, my God.

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And it wasn't what she was doing.

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It's that she was talking about it.

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Because I didn't know that other people thought like I did about food, that they acted like

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I did about food.

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And I think I was a normal eater until I was about 22 when I quit smoking, which I put

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in parentheses.

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Because I literally quit for six months.

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And then I smoked secretly for 20 years after that, unless I was out in public with people

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drinking and they were smoking cigarettes.

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Then I wouldn't smoke publicly.

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But I gained like 35 pounds then.

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I battled with about 35 pounds through my 20s.

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And then it moved up to like 80 to 100 pounds in my 30s.

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And I really don't know my top weight.

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I know that I'm down over 100 pounds, because I know the top weight I saw on the scale was

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247.

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But I know that I weighed more than that.

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And I don't know if it was like 30 pounds more, 50 pounds more, whatever.

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And anyway, so the woman starts sharing about this.

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And she started going to Overeaters Anonymous.

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And she very sort of gently was trying to get me to go to a meeting with her.

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And I went and I was like, oh my god, I'm a compulsive overeater, which I didn't even

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know was a thing.

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Never mind that I was that.

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So I have been in ACA for 11 years.

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I've been in OA and what we call abstinent in that program for 10 years.

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So abstinent in OA is equivalent to sober in AA.

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And my life has never been the same.

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And so I got laid off from Yale after like two and a half years in recovery.

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And through a series of serendipitous events, I found myself in the world of entrepreneurship,

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startups and innovation in New Haven and at Yale, and decided to start my own coaching

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and consulting business.

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And I just started sort of generally coaching and then very soon decided to start my podcast,

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not thinking it would have anything to do with my business.

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It was all about what we call carrying the message of recovery to those who still suffer,

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which is part of step 12.

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Because the feedback I got from people is there was something about the way that I related

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my experience of recovery to others that was really helpful.

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And I was like, I'm just talking, I don't know what it is.

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So I started my podcast just as an effort to carry the message.

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And it's called Fragmented to Whole Life Lessons from 12 Step Recovery, because I have

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this that sort of my experience is that I was a bunch of fragmented pieces sort of floating

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around in space.

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And the process of recovery, especially the part about building healthy boundaries helped

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me integrate those fragments into one coherent whole.

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And so now like I can be rocked by things that happened to me, but I can't be shattered

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by them the way that I used to, because I'm whole, because I have this sense of inner

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safety that came through the process of building boundaries.

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And so as I got into being a coach for a little while, I realized, because I do nothing about

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having a business, I realized I needed to have a niche.

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And so it just made sense for me to be a boundaries coach.

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So I'm going to stop there because I've said a lot.

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And then we can talk more about like, what does that mean to be a boundaries coach and

254
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all that stuff?

255
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Sure.

256
00:15:09,719 --> 00:15:13,719
No, I mean, thank you for sharing all that because I want to acknowledge that everything

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that you've shared was very, it's very hard to share, no matter how many times you share

258
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it.

259
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Yeah.

260
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It's not hard for me at all.

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I have 352 episodes of my podcast, I have been on scores of podcasts, and I've shared

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in recovery for 11 years.

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So it's not at all hard for me at all.

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Well, that's good.

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I mean, that means you've come a long way and you've really worked the programs that

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you've done very well to get to this point.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But I appreciate you saying that because I know that for some people it's extremely hard

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and it's just not for me.

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And I think that's partly what makes me a good podcaster.

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I think that's that could be partly what makes you a good coach too.

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Yeah.

273
00:15:53,799 --> 00:15:54,799
Good point.

274
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Good point.

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You know, and because I think, you know, you not only, you don't just talk it, but you

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live it too.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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You know, and I think that's important whenever anyone is looking for a coach of any sort

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that you want someone who's been where you are and knows how that feels.

281
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Right.

282
00:16:13,479 --> 00:16:14,479
Exactly.

283
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And I think, you know, I mentioned I was in therapy for some 37 years in total.

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I had a ton of therapists and they were sounding boards and I knew nothing about them.

285
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I had no idea if they like based on all the therapists that I know personally as friends,

286
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they probably had pretty fucked up lives and that's why they became therapists.

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I mean, a lot of people, but they never shared any of it.

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So I had no understanding of the, is this an intellectual exercise for you?

289
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And no, like all of the things that came up for me, just even in my first two to three

290
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years alone in recovery cat, none of that stuff came up in all of those years of therapy.

291
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So I didn't know about childhood trauma.

292
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I didn't know about intergenerational family dysfunction.

293
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I didn't know that I didn't have boundaries.

294
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I didn't know that I was codependent.

295
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I didn't know I was a compulsive over either.

296
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I didn't know that I fucking lied all the time, even though when I got in recovery,

297
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I thought I was person, right?

298
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I didn't know that I basically had wildly unrealistic expectations of myself, other

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people in the world.

300
00:17:17,859 --> 00:17:22,939
I didn't know that I really didn't, I was basically not accepting reality the way that

301
00:17:22,939 --> 00:17:23,939
it was.

302
00:17:23,939 --> 00:17:24,939
I was always fighting it.

303
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Like things shouldn't be this way.

304
00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:28,540
So many, many, many, many things.

305
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I didn't know, for me personally, the biggest mindset shift was coming out of victim mentality,

306
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which I would never have believed about myself because I always felt like a powerful woman

307
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of agency.

308
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And also I could spot a victim a mile away because I was going to rescue that person.

309
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Really coming to understand that my, my version of victim mentality was way more subtle than

310
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the classic, like, woe is me.

311
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The world is against me.

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I can never win.

313
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That's not me.

314
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,800
Mine was more like, if only, like, if only my boss was different or if only this boyfriend

315
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:14,040
was different or every boyfriend was different, you know, it was complaining constantly, gossiping,

316
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:20,719
just really like that kind of stuff is acting like you don't have choices, which victims

317
00:18:20,719 --> 00:18:21,839
don't perceive choices.

318
00:18:21,839 --> 00:18:26,359
And I do want to also say that if you have victim mentality, it came from somewhere.

319
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You were in some way, shape or form victimized, whether you recognize it or not.

320
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So you're not a bad person, but also it's a mentality, which means it can be changed.

321
00:18:37,319 --> 00:18:43,839
And for me, that has been the biggest paradigm shift.

322
00:18:43,839 --> 00:18:52,640
But like none of that stuff ever came up with that 37 years of therapy and personal development.

323
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,640
The woman that I was with as a therapist, when I got into recovery, the one where I

324
00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,599
was like, uh, do you think I need to go to Al-Anon?

325
00:19:00,599 --> 00:19:05,719
She was head and shoulders above the rest of the therapists, but she also never said

326
00:19:05,719 --> 00:19:08,300
anything to me about you're an adult child, you're codependent.

327
00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:14,199
She validated it for me when I came back to her and when I finally got the wherewithal

328
00:19:14,199 --> 00:19:17,319
to say to her, like, why didn't you tell me that I was codependent?

329
00:19:17,319 --> 00:19:21,959
I don't remember exactly what you said, but it was something like, it was ridiculous.

330
00:19:21,959 --> 00:19:25,839
It was something like, I don't feel like it's my job to diagnose people.

331
00:19:25,839 --> 00:19:27,000
And I didn't have it in me.

332
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,880
Now I would say like, well, who the fuck's job is it to diagnose?

333
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,520
And also you have a diagnosis on my insurance form.

334
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,760
I know you do because I've been here and you're getting paid.

335
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,280
You know, right, exactly.

336
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:43,280
What is that?

337
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,160
And I've talked to so many people, especially in recovery, whose therapists are like, you

338
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,479
should check out ACA or look up the word codependent.

339
00:19:50,479 --> 00:19:57,439
Or it sounds like a measurement, like nobody was ever saying any of these things to me.

340
00:19:57,439 --> 00:20:03,199
And so I was just completely baffled and blown away by understanding all this stuff.

341
00:20:03,199 --> 00:20:07,800
And so I think like there are lots of amazing therapists out there.

342
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,619
There's also a ton of really shitty therapists out there.

343
00:20:11,619 --> 00:20:15,880
And the problem is nobody knows it, you know, and their, their clients are the victims.

344
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:21,000
The thing about coaches, because, you know, you advertise and you get paid, like you can

345
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,160
see public testimonials about them.

346
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:25,280
You can hear evidence.

347
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,880
And then also, like I have a podcast, you, by the time you come to work with me, you

348
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:30,880
know who I am.

349
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:31,880
Right.

350
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,680
You know what I've been through, you know, what kind of things I can do to help people.

351
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,479
I've been vetted, but therapists, we don't get to do that.

352
00:20:39,479 --> 00:20:45,040
No, you kind of, and a lot of the times the first one isn't the right fit either.

353
00:20:45,199 --> 00:20:46,199
Yeah.

354
00:20:46,199 --> 00:20:50,239
And if you're, if you're, if you've been seasoned to therapy, you know, you can kind of spot

355
00:20:50,239 --> 00:20:52,239
maybe a not so great one early on.

356
00:20:52,239 --> 00:20:53,239
Yeah.

357
00:20:53,239 --> 00:20:54,239
I could.

358
00:20:54,239 --> 00:20:55,239
Clearly.

359
00:20:55,239 --> 00:21:02,439
Well, you were trying, you know, you were trying, you were trying and, you know, a lot

360
00:21:02,439 --> 00:21:07,560
of what I, what I hear, like kind of come through is that you've mentioned it a couple

361
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,680
of times, is that feeling of internal safety.

362
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:11,680
Yes.

363
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:19,400
And I want to know if, like, what was it like to not feel internally safe and what does

364
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,560
it feel like when you do feel internally safe?

365
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:31,160
So I want to say that I just came up with the phraseology internal safety last year.

366
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,800
I would, I think I was guessing on a podcast, I'm like, oh my God, building healthy boundaries

367
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,359
is really about creating a sense of internal safety.

368
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,579
It's something that I've known, but I hadn't named, it was like I was sort of swimming

369
00:21:40,579 --> 00:21:42,979
around it for a long time.

370
00:21:42,979 --> 00:21:46,939
So the idea of, I want to start with what internal safety is.

371
00:21:46,939 --> 00:21:49,859
So it doesn't necessarily mean that you never get upset.

372
00:21:49,859 --> 00:21:52,219
It doesn't mean that your heart isn't racing and stuff.

373
00:21:52,219 --> 00:21:59,380
It means that you rely on yourself for your sense of safety and not the outside world.

374
00:21:59,380 --> 00:22:05,180
So what happens, especially for codependents, but lots of people in recovery is we seek

375
00:22:05,180 --> 00:22:09,020
safety in the outside world.

376
00:22:09,020 --> 00:22:15,219
So I, for example, I need you to be okay so that I can be okay.

377
00:22:15,219 --> 00:22:19,060
And I especially need you to be okay with me.

378
00:22:19,060 --> 00:22:25,140
That's how we, that's how people that don't have a sense of internal safety operate, right?

379
00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:30,780
And so what we do is we try, we do things like we apologize, we over accommodate, we

380
00:22:30,780 --> 00:22:36,060
over give, we override our internal sense of like, this is not good for me, but I'm

381
00:22:36,060 --> 00:22:39,540
going to do it anyway because I need them to be okay with me.

382
00:22:39,540 --> 00:22:46,339
Internal safety is where I'm not going to people please you because I can withstand

383
00:22:46,339 --> 00:22:52,219
you being upset with me because I understand those are your feelings.

384
00:22:52,219 --> 00:22:56,699
You are separate from me and you are in charge of your own feelings.

385
00:22:56,699 --> 00:23:02,660
And I am the only person who can give me the true sense of safety that I want, which is

386
00:23:02,660 --> 00:23:04,540
I can rely on myself.

387
00:23:04,540 --> 00:23:12,060
Now I will say that because I've been doing this for so long and I actually, let me put

388
00:23:12,060 --> 00:23:13,380
a pin in that for a second.

389
00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:18,540
My belief is that healthy boundaries are the antidote to codependence.

390
00:23:18,540 --> 00:23:21,540
So I think that's why I became a boundaries coach.

391
00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:23,859
I don't think that's an accident.

392
00:23:23,859 --> 00:23:32,380
And I also like in 12-step recovery, we become a sponsor to other people to, it's ultimately,

393
00:23:32,380 --> 00:23:36,020
of course we want other people to recover, but ultimately it's to strengthen our own

394
00:23:36,020 --> 00:23:37,020
recovery.

395
00:23:37,020 --> 00:23:39,219
I think that's probably the case with being a boundaries coach.

396
00:23:39,219 --> 00:23:43,979
How can I possibly let go of my boundaries when I'm a boundaries coach and I'm talking

397
00:23:43,979 --> 00:23:45,439
about it all day, every day, right?

398
00:23:45,439 --> 00:23:48,099
So let me just say, let me say that.

399
00:23:48,099 --> 00:23:54,260
So because I do this, it's very rare that I have that feeling of internal threat any

400
00:23:54,260 --> 00:23:55,459
longer.

401
00:23:55,459 --> 00:23:58,780
And when I do, I know how to take care of myself.

402
00:23:58,859 --> 00:24:04,859
I know that, like for me, what I have been saying for years now is my nervous system

403
00:24:04,859 --> 00:24:08,099
regulation is the highest priority for me.

404
00:24:08,099 --> 00:24:12,020
My nervous system tells me what's okay and not okay with me.

405
00:24:12,020 --> 00:24:17,939
I did not know when I got into recovery, what was okay, what was not okay.

406
00:24:17,939 --> 00:24:20,859
I didn't know what I wanted, liked, needed, preferred.

407
00:24:20,859 --> 00:24:24,339
I didn't know where I ended and other people began.

408
00:24:24,339 --> 00:24:27,300
That's because I didn't have boundaries, right?

409
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:32,819
So part of the process of building boundaries is discovering that stuff, figuring out what's

410
00:24:32,819 --> 00:24:38,020
okay and what's not okay, and then acting on that.

411
00:24:38,020 --> 00:24:42,900
No longer saying, yeah, I'm fine with that, when you're not fine with that.

412
00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:49,099
Because the reason we say we're fine with that is because we put other people's opinions

413
00:24:49,099 --> 00:24:50,099
above our own.

414
00:24:50,099 --> 00:24:53,819
Oh, they say it's okay, so I guess I need to make it okay with me.

415
00:24:53,819 --> 00:24:55,500
No, you don't.

416
00:24:55,500 --> 00:25:01,579
Internal safety means it's actually not okay with me and I'm going to tell you that.

417
00:25:01,579 --> 00:25:08,339
So once you develop this, it's really a process of internal safety, might be a better way

418
00:25:08,339 --> 00:25:14,540
to describe it, where you abandon yourself most of your life and just give in to what

419
00:25:14,540 --> 00:25:18,979
other people want and override things and make things okay.

420
00:25:18,979 --> 00:25:21,260
And then you start realizing that you're doing it.

421
00:25:21,260 --> 00:25:25,020
And then you're like, oh, I don't want to do that, but then you can't not do it.

422
00:25:25,660 --> 00:25:27,099
That's the behavior change thing.

423
00:25:27,099 --> 00:25:29,579
Like you realize something is a thing and you're like, great idea.

424
00:25:29,579 --> 00:25:31,339
I have no idea how to do it.

425
00:25:31,339 --> 00:25:35,099
And then you start thinking about it and then you try it and you mess up and then you try

426
00:25:35,099 --> 00:25:38,540
it and you do it and then you try it and mess up again and then you try it and you try it

427
00:25:38,540 --> 00:25:41,020
and you mess up and you do it and you do it and you mess up.

428
00:25:41,020 --> 00:25:45,180
So it's like one step forward, two steps back, three steps forward, one step back.

429
00:25:45,180 --> 00:25:46,780
You know, that's how human change happens.

430
00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:50,619
And then eventually, you're taking steps forward and forward and forward and forward.

431
00:25:50,780 --> 00:26:00,459
And so with internal safety, you come to rely on yourself for your own sense of safety.

432
00:26:00,459 --> 00:26:05,819
You don't need, like I want other people's approval, Kat, but I don't need it the way

433
00:26:05,819 --> 00:26:06,540
that I used to.

434
00:26:07,180 --> 00:26:11,819
Partly, majorly because I have my own approval.

435
00:26:12,619 --> 00:26:17,579
And the reason I have my own approval is because I live in integrity with myself now.

436
00:26:17,579 --> 00:26:18,699
I didn't before.

437
00:26:18,939 --> 00:26:21,339
I didn't know that I lied all the time.

438
00:26:21,339 --> 00:26:22,459
So I lied about cigarettes.

439
00:26:22,459 --> 00:26:23,260
I lied about drugs.

440
00:26:23,260 --> 00:26:25,579
I lied about alcohol.

441
00:26:25,579 --> 00:26:27,660
I lied about relationships.

442
00:26:27,660 --> 00:26:31,500
But mostly, I lied in the people-pleasing department.

443
00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:33,739
I lied and said things were OK with me.

444
00:26:35,099 --> 00:26:37,979
Even when I drank, I didn't even drink my own damn drink.

445
00:26:37,979 --> 00:26:41,180
So I started drinking beer when I was a teen because that's what people drank.

446
00:26:41,180 --> 00:26:43,260
And then I dated a guy who was into wine.

447
00:26:43,260 --> 00:26:44,300
So I drank wine.

448
00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:46,140
And then I dated a guy who was into Jack Daniels.

449
00:26:46,140 --> 00:26:48,219
So I drank Jack and Diet Coke.

450
00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:50,219
And then I dated a guy who was a beer connoisseur.

451
00:26:50,219 --> 00:26:51,739
So then I learned I liked Belgian beers.

452
00:26:51,739 --> 00:26:56,459
Like, I couldn't even have my own damn drink, right?

453
00:26:56,459 --> 00:26:58,219
That's how much of a chameleon I was.

454
00:26:58,219 --> 00:27:02,140
And back then, I thought that that was good.

455
00:27:02,140 --> 00:27:04,859
But now I can see it was about a sense of safety.

456
00:27:04,859 --> 00:27:07,260
I thought that's what I needed to belong.

457
00:27:08,060 --> 00:27:12,859
So the idea that we self-reference for what feels safe to us.

458
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:17,260
You know, that my mantra for years with my clients has been,

459
00:27:17,979 --> 00:27:19,099
keep the focus on yourself.

460
00:27:19,099 --> 00:27:20,140
Keep the focus on yourself.

461
00:27:20,140 --> 00:27:21,180
Keep the focus on yourself.

462
00:27:21,180 --> 00:27:22,619
Keep the focus on yourself.

463
00:27:22,619 --> 00:27:25,660
And that's not about being selfish.

464
00:27:25,660 --> 00:27:27,339
It's about self-preservation.

465
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:31,579
It's not putting yourself first to the neglect of other people.

466
00:27:31,579 --> 00:27:35,099
It's putting yourself first so that you can take care of yourself.

467
00:27:36,060 --> 00:27:40,060
Take responsibility for what is actually yours to be responsible for.

468
00:27:40,540 --> 00:27:44,060
Let other people take responsibility for what's theirs.

469
00:27:44,060 --> 00:27:48,300
Like, their feelings, their behaviors, their beliefs, their choices are theirs.

470
00:27:49,260 --> 00:27:52,780
And it's also about taking really good care of yourself.

471
00:27:52,780 --> 00:27:55,339
Because this is what we do as codependents.

472
00:27:55,339 --> 00:27:57,900
We neglect ourselves terribly.

473
00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:02,380
Embody mind and spirit and put other people first.

474
00:28:02,380 --> 00:28:05,180
So when we have a sense of inner safety,

475
00:28:06,060 --> 00:28:10,300
we feel really good about having our own backs.

476
00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:12,780
And when we don't have a sense of inner safety,

477
00:28:15,020 --> 00:28:18,459
like for me, I lived with a sense of urgency at all times.

478
00:28:18,459 --> 00:28:23,099
I remember the first time I heard that phrase, a recovery podcast, sense of urgency.

479
00:28:23,099 --> 00:28:24,060
I'm like, oh my God, that's me.

480
00:28:24,060 --> 00:28:26,859
I didn't know it until I heard it and it was named.

481
00:28:27,819 --> 00:28:35,500
I often, I didn't even understand until I got in recovery,

482
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:39,660
that that horrendous flood of feeling that sort of comes up

483
00:28:40,219 --> 00:28:43,819
from somewhere above me and floods through my body and feels horrendous.

484
00:28:43,819 --> 00:28:45,660
I didn't even know that that was shame.

485
00:28:46,300 --> 00:28:50,380
And I had a lot of shame almost kind of for existing.

486
00:28:51,260 --> 00:28:56,780
Um, even though I also felt like a powerful woman of agency,

487
00:28:56,780 --> 00:28:58,619
as it was really kind of crazy making.

488
00:28:58,619 --> 00:28:59,979
So I had a lot of shame.

489
00:29:00,540 --> 00:29:03,660
I had, I also did not know until I was in recovery.

490
00:29:03,660 --> 00:29:10,939
I was mired in fear my entire life, but I didn't know it.

491
00:29:10,939 --> 00:29:15,500
So I know that a lot of women, like they won't go out alone at night or what?

492
00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:17,180
Like I've never been like that.

493
00:29:17,180 --> 00:29:19,180
I've always felt like the world was a safe place.

494
00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:21,819
But when I got in recovery, I realized I was mired in fear.

495
00:29:21,819 --> 00:29:27,260
And essentially my fear was people and basically fear of rejection,

496
00:29:27,260 --> 00:29:29,500
abandonment, ridicule, judgment.

497
00:29:30,060 --> 00:29:33,260
That's why I was doing all of the over accommodating,

498
00:29:33,260 --> 00:29:36,780
over giving people, pleasing, manipulating, you know,

499
00:29:36,780 --> 00:29:41,339
enabling kind of behaviors because I didn't want people to judge me.

500
00:29:42,380 --> 00:29:45,420
And now I don't want you to judge me,

501
00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:48,699
but I kind of know that humans are judging discerning creatures.

502
00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:51,020
And so if they're going to judge me,

503
00:29:51,020 --> 00:29:53,739
how about if they judge me for the actual Barb,

504
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:57,979
instead of some like facade version of Barb

505
00:29:57,979 --> 00:30:01,099
or some morphed version of Barb, who's a people pleaser.

506
00:30:01,739 --> 00:30:05,420
And now like I live in alignment with my own integrity.

507
00:30:05,420 --> 00:30:08,380
And I think there's a lot of ways that I think about boundaries.

508
00:30:08,380 --> 00:30:13,579
And I think one of the most important ones is living in integrity with yourself,

509
00:30:13,579 --> 00:30:19,260
like being solidly who you are going from fragmented to whole.

510
00:30:19,819 --> 00:30:23,739
So I think like if I were to summarize now that I just said that,

511
00:30:23,739 --> 00:30:26,699
like what's it like to not have inner safety to feel fragmented

512
00:30:26,699 --> 00:30:28,619
and to have inner safety, it's to feel whole.

513
00:30:29,180 --> 00:30:31,900
But just because you're whole doesn't mean nothing ever happens to you

514
00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:33,020
and you don't ever feel bad.

515
00:30:33,819 --> 00:30:34,319
No.

516
00:30:36,619 --> 00:30:38,380
And there's, and I think that's, that's,

517
00:30:39,979 --> 00:30:43,020
that's an important distinction because life is still going to happen to you.

518
00:30:43,660 --> 00:30:49,180
Of course, but I have tools now that handle the vicissitudes of life.

519
00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:53,420
Whereas all my tools in the past were shitty coping mechanisms.

520
00:30:53,420 --> 00:30:56,300
It was either substance use or making things worse.

521
00:30:57,020 --> 00:30:58,219
But I didn't know that.

522
00:30:59,819 --> 00:31:04,540
Did you, what was the process like as you're going through

523
00:31:06,060 --> 00:31:09,819
your different recovery programs of forgiving yourself for what you didn't know?

524
00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:12,140
Oh, that's a really good question.

525
00:31:14,540 --> 00:31:16,140
Because we often don't, you know.

526
00:31:16,140 --> 00:31:17,339
Yeah, I don't,

527
00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:24,140
you know, I, I, that like, I don't even know how to answer that.

528
00:31:24,140 --> 00:31:32,859
I think that I was so excited to finally understand what the fuck happened to me.

529
00:31:32,859 --> 00:31:35,260
And I didn't have time for that.

530
00:31:35,260 --> 00:31:39,099
I just didn't, it was just like, I got, I'm doing whatever I have to do.

531
00:31:39,099 --> 00:31:43,260
I'm doing whatever, whatever these pieces of literature are telling me, I'm fucking doing it.

532
00:31:44,699 --> 00:31:50,300
And it's just part of recovery is to forgive yourself and to forgive other people because,

533
00:31:51,020 --> 00:31:57,420
and also, let me just say, I was estranged from my dad from 94 to 2005.

534
00:31:57,420 --> 00:32:02,380
And, and then when I reconnected with him, it was still weird and awkward,

535
00:32:02,380 --> 00:32:05,739
but luckily he moved to another state so I didn't have to see him in person much.

536
00:32:05,739 --> 00:32:09,500
But much of that time I read and worked on forgiveness.

537
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:11,420
I read a ton of stuff on forgiveness.

538
00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:14,540
And so I'm certain that during that time I absorbed a lot of

539
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:17,739
understanding of forgiveness in myself.

540
00:32:17,739 --> 00:32:23,099
But I will say that the vast majority of the things that I read and experienced were

541
00:32:23,099 --> 00:32:26,380
why to forgive, which I was like, okay, fine, I get it.

542
00:32:26,380 --> 00:32:29,420
And I think it's important to understand why to forgive, you know, it's like, you know,

543
00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:33,819
not forgiving is like taking poison and expecting the other person to die, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.

544
00:32:33,819 --> 00:32:37,739
But it wasn't until I read the book, The Wisdom of Forgiveness by the Dalai Lama,

545
00:32:37,739 --> 00:32:40,219
that I actually learned like how to forgive.

546
00:32:40,859 --> 00:32:43,660
And he essentially says it's about compassion.

547
00:32:43,660 --> 00:32:46,140
And so that was the first time that I actually

548
00:32:47,579 --> 00:32:53,579
tried to look at my father as a person, as a man, not as my dad.

549
00:32:54,380 --> 00:32:57,819
And I was like, oh my God, like he didn't get the wife he wanted.

550
00:32:57,819 --> 00:32:59,099
He didn't get the sons he wanted.

551
00:32:59,099 --> 00:33:00,219
He didn't get the daughter he wanted.

552
00:33:00,219 --> 00:33:01,339
He didn't get the life he wanted.

553
00:33:01,339 --> 00:33:03,579
And like, that's objectively gotta suck.

554
00:33:03,579 --> 00:33:09,020
He's still my dad, you know, like I could, I could like take a step back and look at him.

555
00:33:09,020 --> 00:33:10,540
And that's why I was able to forgive him.

556
00:33:10,540 --> 00:33:12,459
But I did a lot of work on that.

557
00:33:12,459 --> 00:33:20,859
So my guess is that somehow during that time, I probably learned to forgive myself.

558
00:33:20,859 --> 00:33:30,619
But I've, you know, my, let me just say, like, my raking myself over the coals kind of thing

559
00:33:30,619 --> 00:33:37,979
that a lot of people do, especially people with trauma, has been really, really subtle,

560
00:33:37,979 --> 00:33:40,540
like below the level of language often.

561
00:33:41,099 --> 00:33:46,140
And also, I've been way more judgmental of other people than of myself.

562
00:33:46,140 --> 00:33:50,140
And what I've learned in recovery is that it's just the opposite side of the coin.

563
00:33:50,140 --> 00:33:53,500
The direction of the judgment is just outward rather than inward.

564
00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:54,300
They both suck.

565
00:33:54,859 --> 00:33:57,180
It's not good to be either one of those things.

566
00:33:57,260 --> 00:33:57,760
No.

567
00:33:58,780 --> 00:34:09,179
And but so when I say that a lot of the stuff that was going on in my head was pre-language,

568
00:34:09,179 --> 00:34:10,060
here's an example.

569
00:34:10,939 --> 00:34:15,580
I, for the longest time in my life, had this feeling that I needed to like shrink down,

570
00:34:15,580 --> 00:34:17,260
get smaller, back off.

571
00:34:18,060 --> 00:34:20,300
And it wasn't until I was in recovery.

572
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:25,100
And for the first two and a half years, I went to Y12 SR yoga for 12 step recovery.

573
00:34:25,739 --> 00:34:30,060
And one of the times normally it was just a meeting and then yoga.

574
00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:35,500
But when we did the yoga part, we did the teacher had us do some exercise.

575
00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:39,179
I wish I knew what the exercise was, but she had us kind of come up with like,

576
00:34:39,179 --> 00:34:40,459
what's your core issue?

577
00:34:40,459 --> 00:34:44,060
And I was able to be like, oh, and then like name it and then come up with an antidote.

578
00:34:44,060 --> 00:34:47,899
And I finally was able to put words to it, which is I'm too much.

579
00:34:47,899 --> 00:34:53,260
Now, I wasn't walking around saying to myself, I'm too much cat, but I had that belief.

580
00:34:54,219 --> 00:34:54,780
Right.

581
00:34:54,780 --> 00:35:00,860
So when I say it was pre-lingual, I think the reason I didn't have the words is because

582
00:35:00,860 --> 00:35:05,820
I internalized the idea that I was too much of a burden before I could talk.

583
00:35:05,820 --> 00:35:12,219
And I also know now I was born with a kidney infection and my brother was 17 months old.

584
00:35:12,219 --> 00:35:16,540
So my mother had a baby and then had a baby with an infection.

585
00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:18,060
Yeah.

586
00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:18,620
You know?

587
00:35:18,699 --> 00:35:20,860
And so like, there's that.

588
00:35:20,860 --> 00:35:24,300
Like that, I didn't put that together until like a couple of years ago.

589
00:35:25,020 --> 00:35:30,300
And but then with the exercise I did in that yoga class, it was what's the antidote.

590
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:31,260
And I had to fiddle with it.

591
00:35:31,260 --> 00:35:34,699
And I eventually came up with I'm just the right amount of everything.

592
00:35:34,699 --> 00:35:40,300
And I had to say that to myself a lot, many, many, many times a day for years.

593
00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:42,459
And I never, it doesn't even come up anymore.

594
00:35:43,020 --> 00:35:44,139
I don't even care.

595
00:35:44,459 --> 00:35:51,020
The reality is there are some people in this world for whom I am too much, and that's okay,

596
00:35:51,020 --> 00:35:52,540
because they're not my people.

597
00:35:53,419 --> 00:35:55,260
I am not too much.

598
00:35:55,260 --> 00:35:57,260
They just don't have the capacity for me.

599
00:35:57,260 --> 00:35:59,100
That's really how I think of it now.

600
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:01,419
Like it's not, that's on them, not me.

601
00:36:01,419 --> 00:36:04,939
I don't have to hide my light under a bushel because I'm too much for you.

602
00:36:04,939 --> 00:36:06,379
You can leave, you know?

603
00:36:07,340 --> 00:36:15,500
I'm not going to be offensive to people, but I don't have to stop being who I am.

604
00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:19,020
No, because you think that I'm too much.

605
00:36:19,020 --> 00:36:21,340
Whereas I used to feel like I had to do that.

606
00:36:21,340 --> 00:36:28,300
I had to, I had to morph myself to fit wherever, you know, and I thought being a chameleon was

607
00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:28,540
good.

608
00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:31,179
No, it's not like you're not like you think you can fit anywhere.

609
00:36:31,179 --> 00:36:31,820
No, you can't.

610
00:36:32,459 --> 00:36:34,060
You can't fit in everywhere.

611
00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:35,500
You're not really fitting in.

612
00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:37,739
It is not good to be a chameleon.

613
00:36:37,739 --> 00:36:40,219
Unless you're like a spy, then okay, good for you.

614
00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:50,699
Well, you touched on a very important topic that I think is interwoven through all the

615
00:36:50,699 --> 00:36:55,979
recovery programs, and that's communication skills, you know, effective communication

616
00:36:55,979 --> 00:36:56,219
skills.

617
00:36:56,780 --> 00:37:01,659
If you're growing up in dysfunction, if you're growing up in an abusive or alcoholic home,

618
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:07,340
you're not communicating or taught to communicate in the most effective way.

619
00:37:07,340 --> 00:37:07,899
Right.

620
00:37:07,899 --> 00:37:11,419
Or the safest way or your wants or your needs.

621
00:37:11,419 --> 00:37:11,659
Yeah.

622
00:37:12,379 --> 00:37:17,419
And so I have to wonder if some of that, some of the chameleon behavior that those who grew

623
00:37:17,419 --> 00:37:22,860
up in those homes, they don't know who they are because they can never even communicate.

624
00:37:22,860 --> 00:37:23,340
Yeah.

625
00:37:23,340 --> 00:37:27,659
You know, in ACA, we say there's three major rules of dysfunctional families.

626
00:37:27,659 --> 00:37:29,739
Don't talk, don't trust, and don't feel.

627
00:37:29,820 --> 00:37:34,060
And so the don't talk rule is figure shit out by yourself, even though you're five,

628
00:37:34,060 --> 00:37:35,500
don't ask questions.

629
00:37:35,500 --> 00:37:37,179
And also your parents are going to tell you stuff.

630
00:37:37,179 --> 00:37:38,540
They're not going to explain things to you.

631
00:37:38,540 --> 00:37:39,500
You're just going to figure it out.

632
00:37:40,139 --> 00:37:43,899
And I remember when I was doing the 12 steps at the beginning, my step group and I, we

633
00:37:43,899 --> 00:37:47,260
all realized, oh, the reason we want people to read our minds is because we think that's

634
00:37:47,260 --> 00:37:47,899
how it works.

635
00:37:48,780 --> 00:37:50,379
We've been doing that our entire lives.

636
00:37:50,379 --> 00:37:53,500
I mean, so what if we've been wrong in reading people's minds?

637
00:37:54,780 --> 00:37:56,139
This is how it works.

638
00:37:56,139 --> 00:38:00,540
And I remember thinking that people who came right out and directly said something, I remember

639
00:38:00,540 --> 00:38:01,979
thinking that they were rude.

640
00:38:01,979 --> 00:38:05,419
Like, how dare you tell me exactly what's okay and not okay with you?

641
00:38:05,419 --> 00:38:06,459
You're rude.

642
00:38:06,459 --> 00:38:11,100
And now I'm like, oh my God, it's so refreshing to have someone tell me, you know, I don't

643
00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:12,939
really like cream in my coffee.

644
00:38:12,939 --> 00:38:13,419
Oh, okay.

645
00:38:13,419 --> 00:38:15,899
Well, I won't like, I wouldn't, I'm just giving you as an example.

646
00:38:15,899 --> 00:38:18,459
I would never put cream in someone else's coffee, but you know what I'm saying?

647
00:38:18,459 --> 00:38:19,020
Like, yeah.

648
00:38:20,379 --> 00:38:25,340
You know, I'd rather have you tell me, and also I feel safe when you're telling me the

649
00:38:25,340 --> 00:38:28,620
truth about what's okay and not okay with you, because I know who I'm getting.

650
00:38:29,340 --> 00:38:34,219
And I can tell you that I can't, I mean, I can't tell you how many times people have

651
00:38:34,219 --> 00:38:39,179
said to me, I feel so safe with you Barb, because I know you're going to tell me no

652
00:38:39,179 --> 00:38:40,060
if the answer is no.

653
00:38:40,060 --> 00:38:43,179
And I don't have to worry about whether you're really okay with this.

654
00:38:43,179 --> 00:38:44,540
I don't have to be like, does she mean it?

655
00:38:44,540 --> 00:38:45,500
Is she people pleasing?

656
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:50,300
Is she, they know that I'm like, no, I'm not doing that, you know, or I can't do that,

657
00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:53,500
but here's what I can do, you know, because I'm clear.

658
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:59,100
And here's another thing that I will say that the way that I describe myself now, Kat,

659
00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:00,300
is I don't set boundaries.

660
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:00,860
I have them.

661
00:39:01,419 --> 00:39:06,219
I used to set boundaries, and then I internalized those boundaries because they're part of who

662
00:39:06,219 --> 00:39:06,620
I am.

663
00:39:07,179 --> 00:39:16,060
So another way to say that is I am situated in me, in my life, in a way that I just wasn't.

664
00:39:16,060 --> 00:39:19,020
I was so out there inside of other people.

665
00:39:19,020 --> 00:39:23,020
I had so much going on in my head because I was like, what is she going to think if I

666
00:39:23,020 --> 00:39:23,419
do this?

667
00:39:23,419 --> 00:39:26,139
And how is she going to manage that if I don't go in to help her?

668
00:39:26,139 --> 00:39:27,580
And what about that person?

669
00:39:27,580 --> 00:39:33,739
I was so doing so much emotional and mental labor for and about other people.

670
00:39:33,739 --> 00:39:34,860
It was insane.

671
00:39:35,899 --> 00:39:39,179
And now I'm living inside of me.

672
00:39:39,179 --> 00:39:44,219
I'm living inside of my life, and I'm guided by what matters to me.

673
00:39:45,899 --> 00:39:52,620
And so one of the ways that I do that with my boundaries coaching clients is I have them

674
00:39:52,620 --> 00:39:54,780
identify their top five values.

675
00:39:54,780 --> 00:39:56,780
So they not only say, this is my value.

676
00:39:56,780 --> 00:40:00,379
They say, what does that value mean to me, and why is it my value?

677
00:40:00,939 --> 00:40:06,139
And then while they're working with me, and hopefully from then on out, they use those

678
00:40:06,139 --> 00:40:12,939
values as sort of like guardrails or guideposts for how to make decisions in their lives and

679
00:40:12,939 --> 00:40:14,780
when and where to set boundaries.

680
00:40:14,860 --> 00:40:22,459
Because the way to live a life on purpose is to live in alignment with what matters

681
00:40:22,459 --> 00:40:23,020
to you.

682
00:40:23,020 --> 00:40:28,219
You know, if you want to know what your purpose is in life, your purpose is to live in alignment

683
00:40:28,219 --> 00:40:29,419
with what matters to you.

684
00:40:30,139 --> 00:40:33,659
And so many of us, like I wasn't, you know, I thought I was honest.

685
00:40:33,659 --> 00:40:35,419
I truly believed I was an honest person.

686
00:40:35,419 --> 00:40:36,139
No, I wasn't.

687
00:40:37,179 --> 00:40:41,179
You know, and so now I live in integrity with myself.

688
00:40:41,179 --> 00:40:44,459
And integrity is another word for wholeness.

689
00:40:45,020 --> 00:40:52,139
So when I said, you know, my fragmented pieces integrated into one coherent whole, integrated

690
00:40:52,139 --> 00:40:56,300
is the verb of integrity, which I, that I only figured that out like five years ago.

691
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:57,899
I'm like, oh my God, those words are related.

692
00:40:57,899 --> 00:40:59,500
That makes total sense.

693
00:41:00,060 --> 00:41:05,659
You know, and I'm not like, I'm not a stupid person, but there's so many things that I

694
00:41:05,659 --> 00:41:08,540
was just, were so difficult for me.

695
00:41:08,540 --> 00:41:12,540
And I think a lot of it has to do with this, like the don't talk, don't fuss, don't feel

696
00:41:12,540 --> 00:41:12,860
rule.

697
00:41:12,860 --> 00:41:17,340
And my family, one of the ways that played out was being dumb was like the worst thing

698
00:41:17,340 --> 00:41:18,060
in my family.

699
00:41:18,060 --> 00:41:19,020
You better know stuff.

700
00:41:19,020 --> 00:41:23,100
And if you don't know it, you better fucking make it up and then defend it like it was

701
00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:24,300
handed to you by God.

702
00:41:24,860 --> 00:41:25,979
And I would do that.

703
00:41:25,979 --> 00:41:29,100
So I was a very defensive person for that.

704
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:32,780
And then I was also defensive because I had all these different facades up and I didn't

705
00:41:32,780 --> 00:41:37,260
want people to see behind the mask and look behind the curtain and realize that I wasn't

706
00:41:37,260 --> 00:41:37,979
really a wizard.

707
00:41:37,979 --> 00:41:40,139
I was just the guy standing behind a curtain kind of thing.

708
00:41:41,020 --> 00:41:47,179
And so, you know, I remember saying a number of years ago, I didn't have any tools growing

709
00:41:47,179 --> 00:41:47,260
up.

710
00:41:47,260 --> 00:41:48,060
Then I was like, wait a minute.

711
00:41:48,060 --> 00:41:48,620
Yes, I did.

712
00:41:48,620 --> 00:41:49,260
I had tools.

713
00:41:49,260 --> 00:41:50,379
They were just shitty tools.

714
00:41:50,379 --> 00:41:52,780
So I learned things like gossiping.

715
00:41:52,780 --> 00:42:01,739
So I, luckily for me, I'd started the 12 steps in ACA before I did in my OA program.

716
00:42:01,739 --> 00:42:06,540
Because in OA, when you do the searching and fearless moral inventory, you are only allowed

717
00:42:06,620 --> 00:42:08,219
to look at yourself and your behavior.

718
00:42:08,219 --> 00:42:12,459
And this is about what did you do to screw up your life and the lives of people around

719
00:42:12,459 --> 00:42:12,620
you.

720
00:42:12,620 --> 00:42:16,540
In ACA, we know you're a product of your environment.

721
00:42:16,540 --> 00:42:21,820
These patterns came from somewhere and you will figure out what your part was by looking

722
00:42:21,820 --> 00:42:22,860
at what happened to you.

723
00:42:22,860 --> 00:42:29,659
And so what happened to me, Kat, was I grew up in a family that engaged in indirect communication.

724
00:42:29,659 --> 00:42:32,699
If I had a problem with you, Kat, I would not be talking to you.

725
00:42:32,699 --> 00:42:34,300
I'd be talking to everybody around you.

726
00:42:34,300 --> 00:42:36,060
And I wouldn't really be talking about the problem.

727
00:42:36,060 --> 00:42:37,260
I'd be talking about you.

728
00:42:37,899 --> 00:42:39,340
So what did I do?

729
00:42:39,340 --> 00:42:40,379
Well, I gossiped.

730
00:42:41,340 --> 00:42:47,020
And so the fact that I could see this pattern came from somewhere, like whether it came

731
00:42:47,020 --> 00:42:48,939
from somewhere or not, I still have to stop.

732
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:55,100
But if I didn't realize that this came from somewhere and I just learned that I was a

733
00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:59,739
gossip, I would have been riddled with shame and probably would have imploded and gone

734
00:42:59,739 --> 00:43:02,060
back to drinking and drugging all the time.

735
00:43:02,060 --> 00:43:06,300
But luckily for me, I was in a program that said, you're a product for your environment.

736
00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:10,060
It's not OK what you're doing, but we're going to teach you new skills.

737
00:43:10,780 --> 00:43:17,419
And speaking of gossip, it was one of, first of all, I was shocked to learn that I gossiped.

738
00:43:17,419 --> 00:43:25,179
And also, it was one of the most difficult, I'm going to call it defaults of character

739
00:43:25,979 --> 00:43:26,780
that I had.

740
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:35,659
And but when I really worked on that, I cleaned up a lot of other defaults of my character

741
00:43:35,659 --> 00:43:39,179
because it was victim mentality.

742
00:43:39,179 --> 00:43:41,500
It was indirect communication.

743
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:44,620
It was blaming, you know, it was so many things.

744
00:43:45,580 --> 00:43:50,780
And again, I wasn't riddled with shame because I was like, oh, this came from somewhere,

745
00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:56,699
you know, so like like poor communication.

746
00:43:56,699 --> 00:43:57,260
Absolutely.

747
00:43:57,260 --> 00:44:04,540
Like in my family, sarcasm was like a language, humiliating people, teasing people was just

748
00:44:04,540 --> 00:44:06,139
like part of what you did.

749
00:44:06,139 --> 00:44:09,979
And then if you said out, people would go, it's just a joke.

750
00:44:09,979 --> 00:44:11,419
Well, why does it hurt?

751
00:44:11,419 --> 00:44:18,620
Like, I didn't say that, but I remember thinking this is painful as hell, you know, and so

752
00:44:18,860 --> 00:44:23,979
I'm not talking to the people that you need to talk to, trying to read other people's

753
00:44:23,979 --> 00:44:30,379
minds, expecting people to read your other your mind, expecting people should know things

754
00:44:30,379 --> 00:44:32,300
like that's how I grew up.

755
00:44:32,300 --> 00:44:37,020
But the reality is that people should know something, then they would know it.

756
00:44:37,020 --> 00:44:41,820
So we need to come right out and tell them, you know, something that happens in my coaching

757
00:44:41,820 --> 00:44:45,179
all the time is people will be like, well, I've been married to him for 40 years.

758
00:44:45,179 --> 00:44:45,659
He should know.

759
00:44:45,659 --> 00:44:47,820
I'm like, well, yeah, apparently he doesn't.

760
00:44:47,820 --> 00:44:50,540
So come right out and tell them, right.

761
00:44:50,540 --> 00:44:55,100
And the reason like, and we act like if you don't know it, it's a personal affront against

762
00:44:55,100 --> 00:44:55,260
me.

763
00:44:55,260 --> 00:44:57,820
You're doing something specifically to me.

764
00:44:57,820 --> 00:45:03,500
And the reality is, look, different people pay attention to different things.

765
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:05,739
Different people absorb different things.

766
00:45:05,739 --> 00:45:08,139
Different people care about different things.

767
00:45:08,139 --> 00:45:13,899
So if someone doesn't remember something you've told them, you know, 40 times, it's not because

768
00:45:13,899 --> 00:45:15,899
they hate you and they're trying to piss you off.

769
00:45:15,899 --> 00:45:21,500
It's because that just doesn't isn't part of their world, you know, and so just like

770
00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:24,459
accept that this is not something they're going to retain.

771
00:45:24,459 --> 00:45:29,899
If they had dementia, you know, then would you be, I mean, yeah, you might be upset with

772
00:45:29,899 --> 00:45:36,939
them, but because it's so often, but you understand this isn't the person doing this to be obstinate.

773
00:45:36,939 --> 00:45:40,139
They're doing it because this is just how they operate in the world.

774
00:45:40,139 --> 00:45:45,419
And we get to let go of that stuff because we have these, you know, expectations that

775
00:45:45,419 --> 00:45:46,860
people should understand things.

776
00:45:46,860 --> 00:45:48,459
So we come right out and say them.

777
00:45:48,459 --> 00:45:55,179
And then also we often communicate about other people rather than ourselves.

778
00:45:55,179 --> 00:46:01,419
So like an example, I do a whole module on communication at the beginning of my coaching

779
00:46:01,419 --> 00:46:03,580
because it's such an important thing.

780
00:46:03,580 --> 00:46:09,899
Like one of the examples I give all the time is instead of saying, you're driving like

781
00:46:09,899 --> 00:46:14,860
a maniac, you would say something like, I feel uncomfortable with the way that you're

782
00:46:14,860 --> 00:46:18,060
driving, you know, or I feel unsafe.

783
00:46:18,060 --> 00:46:24,219
Or if someone says you never listen, instead of I don't feel heard.

784
00:46:24,219 --> 00:46:27,100
If you say you never listen, you're talking about them.

785
00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:29,580
So they're automatically going to go on the defensive.

786
00:46:29,580 --> 00:46:33,820
And when you use words like never or always, those are extreme words.

787
00:46:33,820 --> 00:46:35,899
People are going to be even more on the defensive.

788
00:46:35,899 --> 00:46:42,139
And the conversation will then be probably an argument about whether they do or do not

789
00:46:42,139 --> 00:46:43,260
ever listen.

790
00:46:43,260 --> 00:46:49,739
And you've gone past the actual issue, which is I don't feel heard.

791
00:46:49,739 --> 00:46:53,659
And when you say things like I don't feel heard, you're talking about you.

792
00:46:53,659 --> 00:46:55,659
They're not likely to go on the defensive.

793
00:46:55,659 --> 00:46:59,659
Actual communication is much more likely to be had.

794
00:47:00,379 --> 00:47:02,620
And you're on the actual issue.

795
00:47:02,620 --> 00:47:07,260
And it's hard for other people to dispute whether or not you can't, you do or do not

796
00:47:07,260 --> 00:47:07,820
feel heard.

797
00:47:07,820 --> 00:47:12,060
Whereas if they say, if you say you never listen, they could be like, yes, of course,

798
00:47:12,060 --> 00:47:13,419
I blah, blah, blah, you know.

799
00:47:13,419 --> 00:47:21,020
So, like, all of these things are ways in which, like, I learned crappy communication

800
00:47:21,020 --> 00:47:23,260
skills and have learned good ones.

801
00:47:24,219 --> 00:47:28,780
And I will also say, Kat, that because I was, I mentioned I was a program coordinator.

802
00:47:28,780 --> 00:47:32,459
I ran programs in up to 25 schools at a time sometimes.

803
00:47:32,459 --> 00:47:36,699
So I kept the communication going between our program and all those schools.

804
00:47:36,699 --> 00:47:39,899
So I felt like I was an amazing communicator.

805
00:47:39,899 --> 00:47:42,939
And then I got a recovery like, oh, my God, I suck.

806
00:47:44,459 --> 00:47:49,179
And the other thing I want to say is I am now in the first and only healthy romantic

807
00:47:49,179 --> 00:47:50,379
relationship of my life.

808
00:47:51,739 --> 00:47:54,219
It has everything to do with my healthy boundaries.

809
00:47:54,219 --> 00:47:59,820
And I learned how to have good communication skills by building boundaries because I would

810
00:47:59,820 --> 00:48:02,780
try to communicate boundaries to people and it wouldn't work.

811
00:48:02,780 --> 00:48:08,379
And I had to keep adjusting so that people could understand what I was trying to say

812
00:48:08,379 --> 00:48:09,820
so that they could hear me.

813
00:48:09,820 --> 00:48:15,979
And so I now know how to communicate and what to communicate to my sweetheart.

814
00:48:16,780 --> 00:48:20,860
And he also knows how to communicate with me.

815
00:48:20,860 --> 00:48:27,340
And it has everything to do with our healthy boundaries and why we're able to have a

816
00:48:27,340 --> 00:48:30,219
healthy relationship for the first time in our lives.

817
00:48:31,100 --> 00:48:33,580
We've been together for seven and a half years.

818
00:48:33,580 --> 00:48:37,739
I had a long string of dysfunctional relationships.

819
00:48:37,739 --> 00:48:43,020
He was married for 10 years and then he was married for 25 years.

820
00:48:43,739 --> 00:48:50,459
And according to him, those were not functional relationships for him.

821
00:48:50,459 --> 00:48:51,260
And this is.

822
00:48:51,260 --> 00:48:57,020
And I will also say another, speaking of communication, when I started dating him,

823
00:48:57,020 --> 00:48:59,979
one of the things that was really different about him is he never complained about his

824
00:48:59,979 --> 00:49:00,620
ex-wives.

825
00:49:00,620 --> 00:49:05,659
It took him like two to three years to really tell me a lot of the stuff that happened in

826
00:49:05,659 --> 00:49:06,379
his marriages.

827
00:49:07,100 --> 00:49:11,580
I was like, wow, because most relationships we started out with bitching about our former

828
00:49:11,580 --> 00:49:12,060
partners.

829
00:49:14,699 --> 00:49:15,820
No, it's true.

830
00:49:15,820 --> 00:49:17,179
And what did that.

831
00:49:18,699 --> 00:49:24,300
It's interesting because when you go from so many unhealthy relationships that stem

832
00:49:24,860 --> 00:49:29,979
from a dysfunctional childhood, what was that like when you're.

833
00:49:30,860 --> 00:49:35,580
Was there a part of you when you entered into this healthy relationship?

834
00:49:36,459 --> 00:49:40,379
Was there still a part of you that it felt uncomfortable because it wasn't chaotic,

835
00:49:40,379 --> 00:49:42,139
like it wasn't functional?

836
00:49:42,139 --> 00:49:46,060
I remember saying to one of my fellows in recovery, who the fuck is this guy?

837
00:49:47,260 --> 00:49:50,219
He's saying all the new and all the right things.

838
00:49:50,219 --> 00:49:52,139
And she said, he's the guy that got picked for you.

839
00:49:52,139 --> 00:50:00,379
And the reason she said that cat was because I knew him peripherally and I was on a road

840
00:50:00,379 --> 00:50:07,899
trip and I was in a labyrinth in Sedona, Arizona, and he came to mind and I found out his last

841
00:50:07,899 --> 00:50:10,699
name and was able to reach out to him to share something with him.

842
00:50:10,699 --> 00:50:12,219
And that's how we got together.

843
00:50:12,780 --> 00:50:16,780
So when she said he's the guy that got picked for you, he literally God literally plopped

844
00:50:16,780 --> 00:50:22,780
his name in my brain in a fucking labyrinth in Sedona, Arizona.

845
00:50:22,780 --> 00:50:24,780
So I was like, okay, you're right.

846
00:50:24,780 --> 00:50:34,219
So I remember saying to him in regard to having sex.

847
00:50:34,219 --> 00:50:39,100
So I will say like in my previous relationships, I would try to hotwire intimacy by having sex

848
00:50:39,100 --> 00:50:40,540
very early in a relationship.

849
00:50:41,260 --> 00:50:44,219
And I was really thriving when I met him.

850
00:50:44,219 --> 00:50:49,820
So I knew this man had better enhance my life because my life is amazing right now.

851
00:50:49,820 --> 00:51:00,300
So I was like, so he when we would make out, unlike every other man I have ever made out

852
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:03,340
with, he was not trying to put his hands in my pants or on my shirt.

853
00:51:03,340 --> 00:51:04,459
He wasn't like groping me.

854
00:51:04,459 --> 00:51:09,419
He made it very clear that he desired me, but without being inappropriate.

855
00:51:10,139 --> 00:51:13,419
And then he brought up sex in this very cute kind of way.

856
00:51:13,419 --> 00:51:17,419
And I said to him, I want you.

857
00:51:17,419 --> 00:51:19,100
I want you to know that I do want you.

858
00:51:19,100 --> 00:51:20,219
However, I'm not ready.

859
00:51:20,219 --> 00:51:23,979
And I said, I don't even know what that means because those words have literally never come

860
00:51:23,979 --> 00:51:26,699
on, but I'm not ready.

861
00:51:26,699 --> 00:51:29,179
But there's a couple of things I know that I will need to have ready.

862
00:51:29,179 --> 00:51:32,620
One is we need to be in a committed monogamous relationship.

863
00:51:32,620 --> 00:51:36,780
And two, we need to both be tested for STIs before we ever come together.

864
00:51:36,780 --> 00:51:37,820
He was like done and done.

865
00:51:38,620 --> 00:51:42,379
And then I was talking to a woman in recovery who had been married for 35 years.

866
00:51:42,379 --> 00:51:45,260
And she said, if you're going to wait to do it, make a big deal.

867
00:51:45,260 --> 00:51:46,459
Go away somewhere.

868
00:51:46,459 --> 00:51:47,899
And then that way you have a memory.

869
00:51:47,899 --> 00:51:49,979
So I brought that idea to him.

870
00:51:49,979 --> 00:51:50,860
He was like, that was great.

871
00:51:50,860 --> 00:51:55,260
So we had decided we were going to go away and we're going to do it on January 15th.

872
00:51:55,820 --> 00:51:58,139
And so that would have been 2019.

873
00:51:58,139 --> 00:52:03,419
So what ended up happening, Kat, was that we got to look forward to it.

874
00:52:03,419 --> 00:52:06,620
It would be like 19 days until we have sex, 14 days until we have sex.

875
00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:10,620
We made it be this juicy, yummy thing.

876
00:52:10,620 --> 00:52:16,860
And then he actually rented an Airbnb called the Writer's Cottage in the Berkshires.

877
00:52:16,860 --> 00:52:17,659
KATELYN FAGAN Oh, wow.

878
00:52:17,659 --> 00:52:21,340
KATELYN FAGAN And he said to me, so it's in January in

879
00:52:21,340 --> 00:52:21,899
New England.

880
00:52:21,899 --> 00:52:23,500
So it was like, who knows what the weather's going to be.

881
00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:25,260
He goes, I'm going to rent a monster truck.

882
00:52:25,260 --> 00:52:26,780
And I'm like, damn, like, I love this.

883
00:52:26,780 --> 00:52:29,179
So he found the place.

884
00:52:29,179 --> 00:52:31,020
He rented the place.

885
00:52:31,020 --> 00:52:33,899
He said he was going to get a monster truck.

886
00:52:34,699 --> 00:52:39,020
Whereas I had always done all of the work and all of my relationships before.

887
00:52:39,020 --> 00:52:40,540
So this was new to me.

888
00:52:40,540 --> 00:52:42,219
And I was like, this is amazing.

889
00:52:42,219 --> 00:52:48,139
And then like the week before, it was clear that it was going to be like in the 40s and

890
00:52:48,139 --> 00:52:48,780
rainy or something.

891
00:52:48,780 --> 00:52:50,860
So I called him and I was like, I don't think we need a monster truck.

892
00:52:50,860 --> 00:52:53,580
And I'm joking because I think he's joking.

893
00:52:53,580 --> 00:52:54,459
He goes, OK, I'll cancel.

894
00:52:54,459 --> 00:52:56,699
I'm like, wait, you rented a monster truck?

895
00:52:56,699 --> 00:53:00,459
He goes, OK, not a monster truck, but I did rent an SUV because we're fucking going no

896
00:53:00,459 --> 00:53:01,739
matter what the weather's like.

897
00:53:02,620 --> 00:53:07,500
So like that level of enthusiasm from a man I had never had.

898
00:53:08,060 --> 00:53:10,139
So it was amazing.

899
00:53:10,139 --> 00:53:13,580
And so, no, I didn't have any difficulty accepting that.

900
00:53:14,379 --> 00:53:22,379
I love that you had such a beautiful experience where you could communicate how you felt and

901
00:53:22,379 --> 00:53:27,340
that there was there was like this beautiful build up to it.

902
00:53:27,340 --> 00:53:30,139
Yeah, yeah, it was really it was really incredible.

903
00:53:30,139 --> 00:53:35,419
And the other thing was, by then I was down over 100 pounds from my top weight.

904
00:53:36,219 --> 00:53:39,820
And and I had just reached it in the spring of 2018.

905
00:53:39,820 --> 00:53:43,179
So I was still new, newly in this thinner body.

906
00:53:43,899 --> 00:53:49,020
And so I did say to him, let's go out for coffee to talk about sex before we go away

907
00:53:49,020 --> 00:53:49,899
or do anything.

908
00:53:49,899 --> 00:53:56,540
And I said to him, look, this version of Barb, this thinner version and also this recoverish

909
00:53:56,540 --> 00:53:59,340
recovering version of Barb has never had sex before.

910
00:53:59,899 --> 00:54:03,820
My guess is I will be totally OK, because even when I was heavy, I never needed to have

911
00:54:03,899 --> 00:54:04,939
like the lights off and stuff.

912
00:54:04,939 --> 00:54:07,979
But I wouldn't like I wouldn't undress in a dressing room with a bunch of women, but

913
00:54:07,979 --> 00:54:10,060
I could get naked in front of my partner.

914
00:54:10,060 --> 00:54:13,179
But I said, and this version of Barb has never had sex before.

915
00:54:13,179 --> 00:54:14,300
I don't know what's going to come out of me.

916
00:54:14,300 --> 00:54:18,540
You also need to know I have like like you see how my arms are really flabby.

917
00:54:18,540 --> 00:54:19,739
My belly is really flabby.

918
00:54:19,739 --> 00:54:21,100
My thighs are really flabby.

919
00:54:22,379 --> 00:54:25,419
Deal with it, you know, like it's going to be.

920
00:54:26,219 --> 00:54:31,179
And and I also told him how, you know, in my previous there was a couple of relationships,

921
00:54:31,179 --> 00:54:39,260
one of which I felt I got shamed by my partner for wanting not for being reticent about doing

922
00:54:39,260 --> 00:54:45,820
things that were a little too like this is a guy I dated, a guy who had literally four

923
00:54:45,820 --> 00:54:47,179
duffel bags of sex toys.

924
00:54:47,179 --> 00:54:49,979
And I was like, whoa, he was really into porn.

925
00:54:49,979 --> 00:54:51,100
And I just was not.

926
00:54:51,100 --> 00:54:54,860
And he like basically shamed me for not being adventurous enough.

927
00:54:54,860 --> 00:54:59,580
And then I dated another guy who shamed me for being too adventurous because I wanted

928
00:54:59,580 --> 00:55:02,540
to do a fucking doggy style, which I was like, that's normal.

929
00:55:02,540 --> 00:55:04,939
That's not he's like, I should be looking at you.

930
00:55:04,939 --> 00:55:07,179
And I said, you are you're looking at the back of me.

931
00:55:08,139 --> 00:55:12,379
But I got shamed on both ends of the spectrum of like too much and too little.

932
00:55:12,379 --> 00:55:16,219
So I told him I didn't tell him any of those details that I just told you.

933
00:55:16,219 --> 00:55:18,939
I did say I got shamed on both ends of the spectrum.

934
00:55:18,939 --> 00:55:22,939
And, you know, there are things that I might want to try, but I've never felt comfortable

935
00:55:22,939 --> 00:55:24,139
because of the shame.

936
00:55:24,139 --> 00:55:31,899
And so I would like permission from myself to explore things and maybe even change my

937
00:55:31,899 --> 00:55:32,780
mind midstream.

938
00:55:32,780 --> 00:55:34,060
Like maybe we could be in the middle of something.

939
00:55:34,060 --> 00:55:35,899
I'd be like, nope, change my mind.

940
00:55:35,899 --> 00:55:36,939
And he was like, OK.

941
00:55:36,939 --> 00:55:40,699
So then when we got in the car for him to take me home, I said, how are you feeling

942
00:55:40,699 --> 00:55:41,580
about this conversation?

943
00:55:41,580 --> 00:55:42,699
And he goes, let me see.

944
00:55:42,699 --> 00:55:45,260
My new girlfriend wants to experiment with sex.

945
00:55:45,260 --> 00:55:46,540
I think I'm OK with that.

946
00:55:47,340 --> 00:55:56,620
And like I like I the only reason like I was incapable of that kind of of frankness before

947
00:55:56,620 --> 00:55:56,939
a cat.

948
00:55:56,939 --> 00:56:02,780
But I think the main reason is, one, I have healthy boundaries and I know who I am.

949
00:56:03,580 --> 00:56:05,580
And two, I've learned to be honest.

950
00:56:06,139 --> 00:56:08,139
Like I can't do dishonesty anymore.

951
00:56:08,699 --> 00:56:12,139
I'm not I've lived my life for other people my entire life.

952
00:56:12,139 --> 00:56:13,419
I'm not fucking doing it anymore.

953
00:56:13,419 --> 00:56:13,820
I'm not.

954
00:56:14,699 --> 00:56:15,820
No, no.

955
00:56:15,820 --> 00:56:19,979
And I mean, because, you know, what's in it for you, too.

956
00:56:19,979 --> 00:56:20,379
Right.

957
00:56:20,379 --> 00:56:23,500
You know, now that you've seen like this side of life.

958
00:56:24,540 --> 00:56:32,379
Yeah, this is way better way in every like I have peace inside of myself.

959
00:56:32,379 --> 00:56:35,340
I didn't know that I didn't have peace before.

960
00:56:35,979 --> 00:56:39,739
I didn't know that I had a sense of urgency at all times.

961
00:56:39,739 --> 00:56:44,620
I didn't know that I lived in fight or flight mode almost constantly my entire life.

962
00:56:45,580 --> 00:56:48,780
You know, I didn't I just didn't know.

963
00:56:48,780 --> 00:56:52,780
And now that I don't have those things like this is so much better.

964
00:56:54,459 --> 00:56:57,659
No, and it is because look how beautiful your life is now.

965
00:56:57,659 --> 00:56:59,340
Yeah, absolutely.

966
00:56:59,340 --> 00:57:02,540
I mean, you're in a thriving relationship, a healthy, thriving relationship.

967
00:57:03,580 --> 00:57:05,100
You are you're a coach.

968
00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:06,459
You're a podcast host.

969
00:57:07,020 --> 00:57:09,659
I mean, and you've gone I think there's something

970
00:57:10,699 --> 00:57:14,780
very beautiful to say that you've gone through all these recovery programs

971
00:57:15,659 --> 00:57:22,219
and you really immersed yourself in in those programs to get the most out of it that you could.

972
00:57:23,100 --> 00:57:26,939
I don't get the feeling from you that you you went and just took up a seat.

973
00:57:26,939 --> 00:57:29,659
No, in CODA, I took up a seat.

974
00:57:29,659 --> 00:57:32,620
Yes, but not in ACA and not in LA.

975
00:57:32,620 --> 00:57:33,739
Yeah, no, I dove in.

976
00:57:33,739 --> 00:57:34,699
Yeah, no, I dove in.

977
00:57:35,260 --> 00:57:38,060
I remember my mother saying to me once when I was a teenager,

978
00:57:38,060 --> 00:57:39,179
you don't do things halfway.

979
00:57:39,179 --> 00:57:40,219
And I was like, really?

980
00:57:40,939 --> 00:57:42,300
Now I know what she's talking.

981
00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:43,179
She was talking about.

982
00:57:43,179 --> 00:57:45,419
But I never thought of myself as that kind of person.

983
00:57:45,419 --> 00:57:50,939
But now I'm like, I, I think especially as an entrepreneur and I and I network with a lot of

984
00:57:50,939 --> 00:57:57,820
other entrepreneurs and I definitely am a driven person and I've had this personal growth thing

985
00:57:57,820 --> 00:58:01,739
like since I got well, clearly I started therapy at like 15.

986
00:58:01,739 --> 00:58:02,379
I wanted something.

987
00:58:02,379 --> 00:58:06,219
But when I got introduced to the whole self-help genre, I was in.

988
00:58:06,219 --> 00:58:07,899
I'm like, oh, yeah, this is it.

989
00:58:07,899 --> 00:58:09,419
Like I was driven.

990
00:58:09,419 --> 00:58:16,300
And and I will say like the last especially couple years and and really the last six months,

991
00:58:16,300 --> 00:58:20,060
especially I have backed off on the personal development.

992
00:58:20,060 --> 00:58:23,580
I realized I was basically getting hyper vigilant about personal development.

993
00:58:24,219 --> 00:58:30,699
So I am always I've been working on a puzzle since not the same one, but puzzles.

994
00:58:32,780 --> 00:58:35,260
I'm reading actual library books.

995
00:58:35,260 --> 00:58:42,379
I have a couple of library apps where I listen to audio books and I read e-books and I lay

996
00:58:42,379 --> 00:58:44,459
on the couch and watch the Hallmark channel.

997
00:58:45,179 --> 00:58:53,580
And I just I feel like I need to put a pause on learning anything.

998
00:58:53,580 --> 00:59:01,100
I need my personal, spiritual and like mental development to just be on pause right now.

999
00:59:01,979 --> 00:59:03,979
I mean, I am a very spiritual person.

1000
00:59:03,979 --> 00:59:08,699
I pray multiple times a day and all that kind of stuff, but I'm not constantly reading things

1001
00:59:08,699 --> 00:59:11,580
to get better, be better, do more kind of thing.

1002
00:59:11,580 --> 00:59:16,219
And I'm really, really enjoying my life right now in a way I just never have.

1003
00:59:16,219 --> 00:59:19,100
No, and it's important, like you said, to find balance.

1004
00:59:19,100 --> 00:59:22,620
Yeah, because you don't just want to make yourself a project for your whole life.

1005
00:59:22,620 --> 00:59:22,939
Right.

1006
00:59:22,939 --> 00:59:24,540
That's what you just said.

1007
00:59:24,540 --> 00:59:27,899
Like I heard somebody say that a couple years ago and they said I treated myself like I was

1008
00:59:27,899 --> 00:59:28,219
a project.

1009
00:59:28,219 --> 00:59:30,860
Now, like, oh, my God, I treat myself like I'm a project.

1010
00:59:31,820 --> 00:59:33,179
That was the wake up call for me.

1011
00:59:33,179 --> 00:59:36,939
So thank you for saying that phrase, because hopefully someone will hear you say that and

1012
00:59:36,939 --> 00:59:39,179
they'll be like, oh, my God, I treat myself like I'm a project.

1013
00:59:39,179 --> 00:59:39,899
You're not a project.

1014
00:59:39,899 --> 00:59:41,979
You're a human being who gets to live their life.

1015
00:59:42,780 --> 00:59:42,939
Yeah.

1016
00:59:42,939 --> 00:59:46,699
And I mean, no matter how much recovery you go through, you're still going to make mistakes.

1017
00:59:47,580 --> 00:59:49,580
You're still going to screw up.

1018
00:59:49,580 --> 00:59:50,699
And that's OK.

1019
00:59:50,699 --> 00:59:52,540
It's just you know how to handle it better.

1020
00:59:52,540 --> 00:59:53,179
Right, right.

1021
00:59:53,179 --> 00:59:56,699
You don't have to lie about it and cover it up, which is what I did my whole life.

1022
00:59:56,699 --> 00:59:57,500
Right.

1023
00:59:57,580 --> 01:00:00,780
And you seem like you have a good sense of humor about it, too, which I think is important

1024
01:00:00,780 --> 01:00:01,580
as well.

1025
01:00:01,580 --> 01:00:01,820
Yeah.

1026
01:00:02,379 --> 01:00:05,100
You know, because I don't know if you'll get through any of these programs without one.

1027
01:00:06,060 --> 01:00:07,260
Yeah, not well, anyway.

1028
01:00:07,899 --> 01:00:11,340
No, I think you have to laugh at yourself when you're healing a little bit.

1029
01:00:11,340 --> 01:00:11,580
Yeah.

1030
01:00:12,459 --> 01:00:15,260
Because if you don't find the humor in it, you know, I think you will.

1031
01:00:15,899 --> 01:00:18,060
I think you'll kind of drive yourself crazy.

1032
01:00:18,060 --> 01:00:18,379
Yeah.

1033
01:00:19,899 --> 01:00:25,659
And I am curious, like looking back at all your experience, your life experience so far,

1034
01:00:26,219 --> 01:00:32,620
if you could say something to, you know, the young girl in you who didn't know any better,

1035
01:00:32,620 --> 01:00:35,100
like growing up, like what would you say to her?

1036
01:00:36,459 --> 01:00:38,860
You know, someone asked me that before.

1037
01:00:38,860 --> 01:00:39,979
I don't know what I said.

1038
01:00:39,979 --> 01:00:40,860
What would I say?

1039
01:00:40,860 --> 01:00:43,820
So I do a lot of inner child work and I do it every day.

1040
01:00:43,820 --> 01:00:46,300
I have three little versions of me inside.

1041
01:00:47,260 --> 01:00:49,659
So I want to, you're enough.

1042
01:00:49,659 --> 01:00:50,699
Like you're doing enough.

1043
01:00:50,699 --> 01:00:51,979
You're you're good enough.

1044
01:00:51,979 --> 01:00:52,939
You're doing enough.

1045
01:00:52,939 --> 01:01:00,699
You don't like be you, you know, just, you know, pay attention to yourself.

1046
01:01:00,699 --> 01:01:02,620
Do what you love, I guess.

1047
01:01:03,899 --> 01:01:04,540
Those are good.

1048
01:01:04,540 --> 01:01:06,699
Those are simple words, but they're so important.

1049
01:01:06,699 --> 01:01:06,939
Yeah.

1050
01:01:08,540 --> 01:01:14,219
And do you have anything that you'd like to leave us with for those who are contemplating,

1051
01:01:14,219 --> 01:01:20,620
you know, joining these programs, whether it be, you know, OA or CODA?

1052
01:01:21,500 --> 01:01:21,739
Yeah.

1053
01:01:21,739 --> 01:01:27,820
I mean, I think all of them have some kind of a quiz or a list or something like that.

1054
01:01:27,820 --> 01:01:29,739
So like ACA has the laundry list.

1055
01:01:29,739 --> 01:01:30,860
You read that, you kind of know.

1056
01:01:31,419 --> 01:01:33,659
OA has 15 questions.

1057
01:01:33,659 --> 01:01:37,739
And if you answer three of them, chances as yes, then chances are you're a compulsive

1058
01:01:37,739 --> 01:01:38,139
operator.

1059
01:01:38,139 --> 01:01:41,739
I'm pretty sure every single 12-step recovery program.

1060
01:01:41,739 --> 01:01:46,060
And if you don't know how to find them, just Google, like Google codependents or Google

1061
01:01:46,060 --> 01:01:47,340
operators anonymous, you'll find.

1062
01:01:47,340 --> 01:01:48,379
So it's OA.org.

1063
01:01:48,379 --> 01:01:50,060
ACA is adultchildren.org.

1064
01:01:50,699 --> 01:01:51,020
Okay.

1065
01:01:51,020 --> 01:01:56,300
Um, so, and I would say what I hear in both of my fellowships is go to it.

1066
01:01:56,300 --> 01:02:01,100
If you think a fellowship might be for you, go to at least six meetings before you make

1067
01:02:01,100 --> 01:02:05,739
the decision, because sometimes you'll hear shit that scares you and you'll be like, I'm

1068
01:02:05,739 --> 01:02:08,780
not ready, but go, just go for six meetings.

1069
01:02:08,780 --> 01:02:12,939
And then just tell yourself, I'm going to do it because it could absolutely change your

1070
01:02:12,939 --> 01:02:13,179
life.

1071
01:02:13,179 --> 01:02:17,899
I know, like I was looking my entire life and I feel like all of that work that I told

1072
01:02:17,899 --> 01:02:23,340
you about before, Kat, scratched the surface of the iceberg of my life and 12-step recovery

1073
01:02:23,340 --> 01:02:25,100
melted the iceberg.

1074
01:02:25,100 --> 01:02:30,060
And I think part of it is that the 12 steps are an amazing technology for human change.

1075
01:02:30,060 --> 01:02:35,419
But I think the other part is that because ACA addresses trauma, that I didn't know that

1076
01:02:35,419 --> 01:02:38,219
that was the underlying thing that was going on.

1077
01:02:38,219 --> 01:02:44,780
And we now know that trauma underlies most addiction, you know, so I'm a huge believer

1078
01:02:44,780 --> 01:02:49,419
that damn close to everybody could participate in ACA and get something out of it.

1079
01:02:50,379 --> 01:02:51,340
No, I agree with you.

1080
01:02:51,340 --> 01:02:53,419
I think there's something in it, everybody.

1081
01:02:55,419 --> 01:03:00,780
I think every program has something in it for everybody to learn, even if it's just

1082
01:03:00,780 --> 01:03:01,820
more self-reflection.

1083
01:03:03,659 --> 01:03:04,939
And you get to meet people.

1084
01:03:05,739 --> 01:03:08,139
Yeah, people on the journey of recovery.

1085
01:03:08,139 --> 01:03:11,500
Like who doesn't want to be in recovery with people who want to recover?

1086
01:03:12,300 --> 01:03:14,300
Yeah, and you don't feel so alone either.

1087
01:03:15,100 --> 01:03:16,219
Isolation.

1088
01:03:16,219 --> 01:03:20,139
Yeah, I mean, I think like when I that first OA meeting that I went to and I was like,

1089
01:03:20,139 --> 01:03:21,659
oh, my God, I'm a compulsive overeater.

1090
01:03:21,659 --> 01:03:26,139
The first speaker said, I'm down over 180 pounds for 30 years.

1091
01:03:26,139 --> 01:03:28,060
I was like, oh, shit, I'm listening.

1092
01:03:28,060 --> 01:03:31,100
Because I used to work for Weight Watchers.

1093
01:03:31,100 --> 01:03:35,739
And the statistics there at that time, anyway, were 95% of people gain their weight back.

1094
01:03:36,300 --> 01:03:41,500
And everybody I'd met prior to meeting that man that had lost over 100 pounds had had

1095
01:03:41,500 --> 01:03:42,860
some kind of weight loss surgery.

1096
01:03:42,860 --> 01:03:44,699
And nine of those 10 people gained it back.

1097
01:03:44,699 --> 01:03:51,340
So like this man has something that nobody I've ever met before has had.

1098
01:03:52,379 --> 01:03:57,260
And so the fact that you go into a room and you hear people saying shit that you didn't

1099
01:03:57,260 --> 01:03:59,899
know other people said or thought or experienced.

1100
01:03:59,899 --> 01:04:01,820
And you're like, oh, my God, I'm not alone.

1101
01:04:01,820 --> 01:04:04,379
I'm not the only one that thinks and feels like that.

1102
01:04:04,379 --> 01:04:10,060
And that is one of the most powerful parts of 12-step recovery is knowing you're not

1103
01:04:10,060 --> 01:04:14,139
alone and then not being alone because you're surrounded by people.

1104
01:04:16,699 --> 01:04:22,540
No, and I think that's, I think more than ever in this world that we live in, we need,

1105
01:04:23,100 --> 01:04:25,020
you know, people around us.

1106
01:04:25,020 --> 01:04:25,419
Yeah.

1107
01:04:25,419 --> 01:04:26,540
Community around us.

1108
01:04:26,540 --> 01:04:28,620
It also keeps us in check, too, I think.

1109
01:04:28,620 --> 01:04:29,179
Yeah.

1110
01:04:29,179 --> 01:04:31,659
I think it keeps us honest with ourselves as well.

1111
01:04:31,659 --> 01:04:32,459
Yeah, agreed.

1112
01:04:32,459 --> 01:04:35,739
Especially when you have people around you who care about you who are willing to tell

1113
01:04:35,739 --> 01:04:38,139
you the truth, like what you're doing to yourself is not okay.

1114
01:04:39,100 --> 01:04:44,699
Do you have any like, do you have, you did say something, keep the focus on yourself.

1115
01:04:45,899 --> 01:04:48,060
Is that your personal like mantra?

1116
01:04:48,060 --> 01:04:50,300
Do you have like a personal mantra that you follow?

1117
01:04:54,699 --> 01:04:59,419
I mean, there's so many like sayings from recovery and so many things.

1118
01:04:59,419 --> 01:05:05,340
I think one that really helped me in early recovery was this is info, not ammo.

1119
01:05:05,979 --> 01:05:09,500
So when you're learning about yourself and you're finding out things you don't really

1120
01:05:09,500 --> 01:05:13,020
like, it's information for you to learn, integrate and grow from.

1121
01:05:13,020 --> 01:05:15,100
It's not ammunition to beat yourself up.

1122
01:05:15,659 --> 01:05:19,500
And most of us have been beating ourselves up our entire lives, which means we end up

1123
01:05:19,500 --> 01:05:24,139
battered and bruised rather than changed and growing.

1124
01:05:24,139 --> 01:05:30,379
And so the way that I talk about that notion with my clients is if you want to go from

1125
01:05:30,379 --> 01:05:37,500
self-deprecation to having self-compassion, curiosity is the bridge to get you there.

1126
01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:40,060
And I love curiosity because it's neutral.

1127
01:05:40,860 --> 01:05:44,219
It's not Pollyanna and it's not self-deprecating.

1128
01:05:45,340 --> 01:05:49,179
So when we say info, not ammo, like let's look at this as information.

1129
01:05:49,179 --> 01:05:50,939
Let's be curious about this.

1130
01:05:50,939 --> 01:05:54,060
So instead of saying, what the fuck is the matter with me?

1131
01:05:54,060 --> 01:05:57,179
Say, what could I do differently?

1132
01:05:57,260 --> 01:06:00,939
Like information for me to go, this is a pattern that I have.

1133
01:06:00,939 --> 01:06:02,459
It's not that I'm a crap.

1134
01:06:02,459 --> 01:06:05,340
It's a pattern that I internalized as a child.

1135
01:06:05,340 --> 01:06:08,540
And it's a pattern of behavior, which means it can be changed.

1136
01:06:09,659 --> 01:06:10,219
I like that.

1137
01:06:10,219 --> 01:06:11,340
This is info, not ammo.

1138
01:06:11,340 --> 01:06:12,219
I've not heard that one.

1139
01:06:12,219 --> 01:06:15,580
That's that's that is one of my mantras for sure.

1140
01:06:16,540 --> 01:06:17,340
I love that.

1141
01:06:17,340 --> 01:06:19,500
And another one is that I'm flawsome.

1142
01:06:19,500 --> 01:06:21,659
So that's F-L-A-W-E-S-O-M.

1143
01:06:21,659 --> 01:06:23,739
So it's awesome.

1144
01:06:23,739 --> 01:06:31,100
And hearing that really sort of broke open my black and white thinking about that.

1145
01:06:31,100 --> 01:06:34,459
Like I internalized, I better not have flaws.

1146
01:06:34,459 --> 01:06:36,939
And if I have them, then I better hide them.

1147
01:06:36,939 --> 01:06:37,260
Right.

1148
01:06:37,260 --> 01:06:39,739
And so that's where all the facades came from.

1149
01:06:39,739 --> 01:06:42,699
So it was like, wait, you can be flawed and awesome.

1150
01:06:42,699 --> 01:06:43,500
Whoa.

1151
01:06:43,500 --> 01:06:48,699
You know, so those two, I would say flawsome and info, not ammo are two big ones for me.

1152
01:06:49,739 --> 01:06:50,939
They're very simple.

1153
01:06:50,939 --> 01:06:53,580
They're easy to remember, but they are very powerful.

1154
01:06:53,659 --> 01:06:53,979
Yes.

1155
01:06:54,939 --> 01:06:58,699
And thank you for for joining me today, Barb.

1156
01:06:58,699 --> 01:06:59,580
Oh, my pleasure.

1157
01:06:59,580 --> 01:07:00,780
This was great conversation.

1158
01:07:00,780 --> 01:07:01,899
I appreciate it.

1159
01:07:01,899 --> 01:07:06,459
I really enjoyed you taking time on your day to talk with me and share your story.

1160
01:07:07,739 --> 01:07:09,580
And there's a lot here for everybody.

1161
01:07:10,379 --> 01:07:15,020
And you're a truly incredible human being for all that you do.

1162
01:07:15,020 --> 01:07:15,500
You are.

1163
01:07:15,500 --> 01:07:18,300
And you've taken, you know, all the pain that you went through,

1164
01:07:18,860 --> 01:07:22,459
and you really built something beautiful for yourself and you're helping others.

1165
01:07:23,179 --> 01:07:28,860
And I think that's I think that's a beautiful testament to you as a human being.

1166
01:07:28,860 --> 01:07:29,419
Well, thank you.

1167
01:07:29,419 --> 01:07:30,459
I appreciate that.

1168
01:07:31,020 --> 01:07:34,379
And if you want to find out more about Barb, because we just scratched the surface,

1169
01:07:34,379 --> 01:07:36,620
there's still so much more you can learn about her.

1170
01:07:37,500 --> 01:07:42,540
You can find her guiding women to reclaim their power on her podcast,

1171
01:07:42,540 --> 01:07:49,500
Fragmented to Whole, and all of her resources, including her coaching services.

1172
01:07:49,500 --> 01:07:53,340
And to sign up for her free 30 minutes, say no without guilt call

1173
01:07:54,459 --> 01:07:59,419
are available at barbchat.net and highpowercc.com.

1174
01:08:01,179 --> 01:08:03,179
Oh, I'm sorry, higherpowercc.com.

1175
01:08:04,459 --> 01:08:06,939
And Barb is also on YouTube and LinkedIn.

1176
01:08:08,139 --> 01:08:09,419
And did I miss any links?

1177
01:08:09,419 --> 01:08:10,780
Is there any other links?

1178
01:08:10,780 --> 01:08:11,419
That's it.

1179
01:08:11,419 --> 01:08:12,459
That sounds good.

1180
01:08:12,459 --> 01:08:12,699
Yeah.

1181
01:08:13,260 --> 01:08:15,739
And all that will be in the show notes.

1182
01:08:15,739 --> 01:08:20,540
And I am going to put the links to OA, to CODA, all that in the show notes as well,

1183
01:08:21,259 --> 01:08:22,459
for anybody who's interested.

1184
01:08:24,060 --> 01:08:28,779
And as always, I want to thank everybody for tuning in to the podcast, to listening.

1185
01:08:29,660 --> 01:08:31,819
If you want to connect with the show or support us,

1186
01:08:31,819 --> 01:08:33,979
the link tree is also going to be in the show notes.

1187
01:08:34,540 --> 01:08:39,740
And please remember, as always, you don't have to carry what you came from

1188
01:08:39,740 --> 01:08:42,700
and keep telling your story because like Barb,

1189
01:08:42,700 --> 01:08:45,180
you never know who you will help.

1190
01:08:46,140 --> 01:08:49,580
And I want to thank you, Barb, again, and thank everybody for listening.

1191
01:08:49,580 --> 01:08:51,580
Thanks, Kat.