George Brown Of Kool & The Gang Part 2

00:00:00 Speaker 1: We are back with part two of our conversation with Funky George Brown of Cool and the Gang. I love this conversation for several reasons. Get down on It is my absolute favorite song of all time and Celebration was played by barmettz fok course. If you haven't yet, please listen to part one with George, where he speaks about growing up in Jersey City and how that toughened him, the band's early success, and his skills as a drummer. George just panned a memoir, Cool and the Gang and Me, which is available right now. George, Cool and the rest of the band also just released a new album, People Just Want to Have Fun. Make sure you check that out. But first Part two of QLs with Funky George Brown. I'm assuming during this period that you guys don't have day jobs as well, Like we did an episode with Millie Jackson only to find out that he was basically Millie Jackson on the weekends and then Monday, if you Thursday, she'd go back to her day job where she was working in Manhattan something. Well, yeah, she was working in the garment district of Manhattan while she was you know, doing live and bitchy and like at the peak of it is one able to make a comfortable living, especially in an eight man group, which I assume is different than the set up with Earth, Winn and Fire and which you know, which is basically the Mary's White group. And he's paying them as yeah, you know, work for higher, you know our contract at work for higher. But like in okay, so say it's seventy six, like right right before you guys do uh after Jungle Boogeme, right before open Sesame comes into play. We were very lucky there were no jay jobs in the initial period, uh say nineteen sixty nine. Uh then I think at that point Klittis Smith had a job delivering. But after we signed a contract with Delight, we worked. We've always worked. We've always had a gig. You never had a regular job, George, the regular jobs or when we were doing and still doing the nightclubs, but still no one was hitting the punching the time clock like that. It wasn't like that. It's just changed because the first record Cooling the Gang, by Cooling the Gang, number thirty eight with a bullet on top one hundred, that's the record changed the whole atmosphere, most black artists got to go over the black charge or this chart that record went pop with a bullet, So you guys had a fair deal. Then, yeah, got a fair deal. Then uh and uh we got a blessing because not many black acts just popped up number thirty or the bullet or the und So we were working. So it was work. It might have been slow here and there, but we we did work. So if I want to ask you about publishing, because I'm curious where you got your publishing education, because we talk about hip hop. But if your publishing wasn't right from the start, it wouldn't even matter because you wouldn't have been receiving you know, the profits of the bmrscaps, she say, and all of her from Warner Chapel and bm and you know that. Uh well, early on, like with Jean Read again, he was a guy. Uh he told us all about that, you know, and uh so therefore we were receiving I mean I signed with bm MY when I was nineteen, right, And that's because Jean Read all of all of us had you know, and uh and earning from first to light. But then when PolyGram brought the light, then the royalties for writing and publishing came from PolyGram and won a chapel and b am, I sorry, and then the artist royalties also came out of Polygraph. So we we we knew. One of the most pivotal crucial moves that you guys did was adding JT. Taylor. But there's actually a second factor that not many people talk about. You guys went with a very unorthodox direction associated with legendary Brazilian producer a mere Dia Data. Right before we started. He called me twice right before we started. Really, I look up, it's a deal. I saw talk because you know when you talk to do you we got to bring a lunch? Okay? Yeah? I want to know what was the meeting or the decision process. One to bring in a lead singer, and two to work with not only an outside producer, but a Brazilian producer, which I mean I would imagine in nineteen seventy nine, one would figure that, you know, I gotta go to the top of the pile, like either get with Gamble and Huff or you know Norman of Noran Harris. I knew it was yeah, yeah, yeah, So what made you guys go with AMERI Dia Datto of all things. Not really known for a pop since or. I mean, you know, he dabbled in disco, but not enough for me to be like, Okay, this is our do or die moment. Let's get him well. Deal. At seventeen years old, was like the number one on arranger and producer in all of Brazil, and he had written strings for Colistro being you know, most of our heads were in that you know that thing he wrote for Colistro being woo, so all heads were still in that jazz Irene Conrad over the House of Music. She introduced, I think I got this story right. There might be some loose ends. Calis to James J. T. Taylor. I think Ron Sweeney had said it it's time to bring in a lead singer. You guys can do it. We looked at Stevie because we did a lot of work with Stevie. Stevie helped us out so many times when the bus would break down, really called Stevie and he'd help us. Really Yeah. So Steve would help us out numerous times, and we wanted him to come in and produce. He said, sorry, fellows, I got to get my own album happening at that time. So we had a manager to Val Hackett. Valve shopped and I call a shopping. But he got your mere diado, which was a great blessing. It missed just like Dovetail, like man, the beauty is just connected. He was the right guy for cooling the gang because all the music the guys knew, you know, you know, we were all musicians, musicians guys who knew all the chord changes and you know what, have you all all the scales and sit down and actually write it out with him. It was easy if we if we went self about, he would write that down and weeks later, when the horns had come in, he should buy muself. But it would be a but which a simple lot, right And uh, but guys that write those parts down as well, you know Clifford Adams who play trombone have a trump bone case full of music. Deal was the right choice, uh, and not only the right choice for the music, but the right choice and really organizing the band and how we did things. He brought it to a whole other level, making sure that everything was notated, everything was written down. As a drummer, I always wanted to know how hard was it too? Sort of adjust your sound for the times, because even I noticed me as a drummer, I've pretty much stayed kind of consistent for my thirty years of drumming in the roots and on record, like I'm not I mean, I'll if I change my sounds for experimental purposes, but not like, hey, let me let me adjust to the sound in the climate of where it is today. But like the groove that you're playing on let the music take your mind, is not the same tone or the same sound as Jones versus Jones, or or celebration or whatnot. So at the time, how aware you as the heartbeat of the band that like the most radical sound change of the band has to be with the drums. My sounds story is because you hear all this For me, uh, it didn't bother me. It was like, let's go with the flow. This is what it is, this is going to help us move forward. Uh, this is what's going to bring a water water range of audience. So I was totally totally amuenable to it and and and actually didn't think about it too much. But question, you're right because later on, because I played piano as well, and I got to a point where Okay, enough of this and I's just switched over the keyboards. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you about two. That's like a major move that I don't hear from jumps to keyboards. Yes, oh well I always played piano. Okay, okay, yeah, it goes back to we talk about church. It goes back. I've always played, but in your group, you always played drums until you decide I'm going. We had our writing social night. You know, how does the songwriting process start? Do you guys just say, hey, got an idea? Guys, what do y'all think about this? Or do you bring it? Like? Do you bring it to DT? Do you bring it to Ronald first? Like? How does the songwriting process? It was us. We just bring it to us, you know, guys say whether they like it or not, and if they like it, then we got down on it. That's the truth. You know. With Theodado a little more different because every morning he would pick me up. I lived in Manhattan and Gramercy Park, and he said, oh, Seniel, let me see your homework. So you're popping a cassette, you got your illegal paid. You start saying and he'll he'll either buster your eagle then by saying that's not happening, and or it actually if you felt like he said, that's very cute, but it's not all He'll say, senor you've done it again. Love the lines, and so we would apply, you know, people would have different lines to put it in a song and they would work, you know, perfectly. You know. So we shared the story of how Celebration got written, at least Ronald's version of how Celebration got written? But are there any other universe like unusual stories of that For listeners who didn't hear that particular episode, Ronald Bell said that he was backstage at a Rick James and Prince show and Prince had just did I Want to be a Lover? And in between the set changeover for Prince di Rick James, Ronald runs backstage and finds a piano and figures out the courts that I want to be a Lover, and he writes it and notates it down and then he plays it backwards and that rhythm of dada da da da da d winds up being dada da da. And but I mean, for the songwriting process, especially in the period in which you guys are having unstoppable, you know, pop classics, one after the other. Are there any other unusual stories of how songs got written? No, not really. You know, sometimes guys would pass on a song. I would take it and write a first verse of lyric and give it the j T. He said, this is happening, And uh, the next thing, you know, we have a complete song because you got two members working on it. We've got the chord structure figured out, and uh, writing the melody and lyric and bingo and say you got something. And it's the funny thing about it. They went to number five pop, you know, but the band itself didn't like it. That was take my Heart, you know, and it's very very poppy all that. But this didn't like that song. No I helped write it was said that was my aunt's song, man. That was the one I took. I took it because the band didn't like it. Clayton Smith wrote it the guitar player right, But the band didn't like that twelve eight. So I said, no, give it to me, took it home. Write no time for wishing baby. We've gone all through those moves. I'm often satisfaction. So the next day, of course, get to the studio jay where you like Jay T? What do you think? He said, Man, I like this. I've been going through a Luther phase in the last like month and a half, reading his book and listening to his music, and I realized that the world is going through a draft of a good shuffle song. Oh my God, like and take My Heart is like kind of I remember when you check it? Yeah, exactly. Can you talk about the phenomenon that is celebration, Like what were the bands general reaction to, Like celebration winds up being way past an anthem, it's it's it's pretty much music DNA like, it's it's with celebration. We're on the tour of US and leaving LA the night before we won two American Music Awards, so the song was Germany. Then that's when you got from Earl Smith, you know. So so let's let's put that in there because that's very celebrated, celebratory, you know, So just just to put that in the soul and gives it that boost, you know. But if we go out to it becoming I mean to the point where it's like stadiums and weddings and where does the boss bought Miss backshot Beckyard Bobby cues it's it's it's an amazing, it's a blessing and it is uh one of those songs that I'm gonna say you can't deny and you must play it every evening. Did it ever become Burningston? Because I know a lot of acts when they get a mammoth hit of that caliber, then it's like selling becomes it becomes a burden. No, you know what happens. And you know when you're playing sometimes you're playing the piece and you played it a thousand times, but it becomes organic like b and guys are playing the right chords. But it just got this just tonight you're playing quests or the piano he's playing, it has another little lilt or another little thing to it. You're playing it, but it has another field that night, not you know, it's not the record field. The people feel it. So that's what happens. If it turns into this piece of music that each that you play it, it has a different feeling and you when you're singing it as well, it's coming out different. But it's to say that there's a party going on right here, but it's coming out different for some reason, and you feel different about it. And when you get off of everybody, great, nice show, man, great show. Nobody feels that man is burning a hole in our shoes, right, no one's complaining. And I asked about another anthem real quick. I just I'm curious to how so many fellas come up with another anthem, but this one about the ladies. I don't know. We asked Rond that question, but I was like, how did you know to embody what a lady's night was? How does it? Well, I'll tell you. I get to who likes to go out and have fun? Okay, so you said, you know the new thing in clubs now on a Friday, Saturday whatever, it's a lady's night, you know. And me walking from fifty seventh Street back down to Gramercy, I'm watching how people the gap of people's walk, just how people walk. And I said, yeah, I said, man, people are walking like a jails walking working baseline. Do I had that game? So I went home, said at the piano and started harmonizing it and the different key changes, as you know, shugged the deadaldo. Hey, this is what we need. So we got together the right road on it. We had we had the track already, you know, you know the horns are we're playing with the girls will singing, and JT and myself and Calise got on the lyrics and done very done. What was it about JT that appealed to the band as far as his voice? I once heard somebody describe that if Nat King Cole had been born thirty years later, like basically would have been the voice of JT. Taylor, Like that's how smooth JT's voice was. Basically he was like Nacking Cole like. But for you, like, what was the appeal to that sort of voice? And were there other acts that are other singers that you guys auditioned before you decided on James JT. Tailing. I don't want to mention people's names. I like that, but there was some little cut that were all known. But JT did have and still does that golden tone in his voice great lyricists by the way too. And what we did in the studio is go in and roll a little bit of that on to his voice to enhance his voice. Even also, you know, in you the studio and say what else sounds a little week They're all a little midrange let's work on that. So we did some work on his voice as well, you know, like everybody does. But he started off with it, you had it, okay. We felt that his voice was pop, pure pop, and it worked at that time. You know, it had a certain innocence in it, non intimidating all of that, and uh, just just a pop artist. I mean, you know, we could have went for the Teddy Penigrad, the Luther Andros. We could have went for it to be part of it, but we we felt that it wouldn't it wouldn't work. And the other singers that you were considering for that spot was it? Was there anyone notable that we would have known that almost had a chance to be in the group. Yeah, and you can't name who they are? No, No, it's still I don't want any letters coming from my mailbox. I mean you can potificate though, if we pontificate, can you just not like, you know, how are you not just joking out the one out? Damn? Just just like when you mentioned the bigger ritos and you know, you know you leave that alone, Okay, I got you. How easy was it for him to adjust to being in the group? Easy? It was the same age as you guys. Was he younger a few years younger? Just a few So we're all in the same genre basically age wise. Uh, not too far. I think he's I think I'm four years older than James. Okay, you know, but no, we were the guys who would go to rees Speech in Brooklyn and throw the frisbee around, have the girlfriends, that that type of stuff. We were the guy we hung out you know where the song comes from. That. So we were always together, well in some capacity, even going to the movies. How are you guys able to maintain any level of not like a domestic lifestyle, but like how are you able to balance that, especially like during that time period and which you guys are working class musicians. That was very hard during that time course. When we go out, we'd go out for two months at a time. Uh. Yeah, we were out with Van Hale enough four months. But the thing is that just a big tour break. You know, the same thing with kid draw you ever to a break, But with us, we go out for two months and you're out there, you're not coming back. Wow. Okay, especially in the first half of the eighties and which you know, those unstoppable hits are coming in. How are you balancing out the shows in terms of which audience to please? Like in your eighties show does does open Sesame still have a home? Is Jungle Booky and Funky Stuff still getting the same response? Is JT singing funky stuff? And and and jungle boogie? Also like with the band, Like with jungle Boogie, Uh, it was almost like we would all take a spot caring. Oh you know as we kept that going, you know, somebody you know, get down with the boogie that type of stuff. The same thing with fucus stuff, you know. So that was sing along so the whole band. So everybody's saying, you know, with funky stuff, uh, jungle boogie, just just drop in. You know, it's very easy that way as well. You know, I didn't make it like hard for anyone, you know, you just sang it. I know that there was a JT's exit in eighty eight. He was just going without really like without any warning whatsoever. I still don't understand that all these years, you know, So what happened in nineteen eighty eight because you guys had this unbelievable streak and then that's it? So what was the story of his exit and how I believe me question. I was speaking about that last week with I think it was my engineer, Wolfgang, no rhyme, no reason. It was just that he got a bunch of money from I think it was A and M or MCA, and he went on to do his went on to do his thing. And because when he first came out, I mean he and I we were roommates, you know those hotels at the beginning, and uh, not only roommates would go out and hang out in the clothes together, come back and all the good stuff. So to this very day, I don't know. I really really don't know. And I was searched. There was a time I'm where I was saying, uh, so let's call Ron Sweeney. Ron, we'll call JT's manager and talk over things, and let's let's get JT back out on the road. You know, Uh, it would never move forward for some odd reason. When do you remember the last time you had the conversation or the last time we'll work at jay? Well, he came back in the mid nineties. I believe he came back into mid nineties, and then he left again. Okay, whatever that was about. But when we got the Songwriters Hall of Fame. He came out, we're straightened up. The course with the band had the wrong changes. Uh what it is? He said, knows this and uh but he came out and sang uh and it sounded like, uh, we never separated. How did you guys come across or how did you guys wind up and listening the services of Skip Martin of the Dad's Band. Yeah, the Dad's Band to be JT's replacement in eighty eight. Well the del band. Piece of blessings be upon him. Yeah, he passed away. Um, well, Adele, our manager was in a tragic car accident. Story, but he brings Skip over to my home. You know. Uh, Skipper is a good singer. Uh, so it worked. What also worked was that he's a monster's trumpet player. You know. Yeah he is so Skip. Yeah, I didn't know Skip is a monster. Okay, you can put up with a Terrence Blanchard and you know he's he's that guy. Uh mouths, you know, And we pushed that mute on his great shoe. He added greatly to the horn front vocally. I know that different members in the band, Uh didn't I know Kolice didn't like his vocals, that's for sure, and yeah, you know, because it's too vagacy, right, but we made it work. By the time we got Sean, who was close to JT vocally, Skip was just singing background and playing trumpet, but the horn section was extremely tight, you know. And Klice come up Police loved Skips on his type of play as well. Loved it and I do as well. You know, every time we have a session, even Alf for something, we call Skip, you know, Robbie best skip those guys. So Skip's tenure was rather rather short. Then we brought in Odean Mays, who was a bass baritone, great pianists. Uh. So we had both skipping uh, Odein Mays doing the leads. The audience has loved it because you have the guy with that like like blue love it with that that voice, right yeah. Uh. And then they got the that the that the tenor that Irish tenant do Ski pass you know? Uh? And then uh, I don't know who it was, but Sean mcquilla when he came in. Sean has been with the band God now out of thirty forty years maybe a little more, and his voice is very close to JT, but he has more of a rass for it, so yeah, good, good singing and also great guitar. Fabulous guitarist you know these days he can't pick up the card guitar like he he warns to it. But us playing and he's great. You know. We have Rick Mosel out there as well, also guitars basis. Rick is played with Prince and Stephanie Mills. Everybody's fabulous, you know, and a mirror a mirror players every instrument as well. It's crazy reasly good. You mentioned something earlier and it did hit me that. I think in twenty fourteen to twenty fifteen, my my guitar player, Kirk came up to me. He's like, man, you'll never guess where I was last night, And I was like, what he's like? I was at a Van Hilen show and Cooling the Gang open. You guys were touring with what was that show? Like? Pulling the Gang and Van Helen loud? We played loud and they were loud. I mean it was so loud that especially during sound check, I'd go outside. They couldn't take it, you know. They but that Van Halen great band, uh tight, great band, good guys. But the guys you know, and here's David is a major Soul fan that much I do now And you know the forum here, yeah, well it was kept on the QT but uh those are that's where all the rehearsals were for the tour, at the forum, you know. So we said, we were saying ourselves like, wow, what what? What? Probably you rent off the forum for rehearsal, you know that's Alex. Yeah, it's crazy. Don't forget to get George's book Too Hot and Cool. Yes, can you talk about your memoir? Like how long did it take you to write that? Because I'm slow. It took about ten years. And there's a lot of stuff that was taken out for political reasons, for whatever. Uh, some of the stuff would be quite shocky. So he took I took to David Smith and when I was in DC, so we just plucked stuff out that, you know, some of the stuff that were alladed to about those guys, you know. And uh, once again, I never mentioned people's names. The story was starting things. But if I mentioned their names and what I was involved with, and it was just I was involved with one of their daughters. Oh this is a movie, it's this is a movie. Yeah, Yeah. It was like he was you know, he was up here at a total pool, not down here. I told him. Yeah, so that was a that was quite dangerous because she even said this is a little dangerous. They were a lot of dangerous. They were gild be on the other side if my dad knew. Yeah, could you tell me what your three favorite cooling gang songs are? But can you also just tell me what was your favorite song to create? Wow? Wait, are you one of those? They're all my kids and I can't separate them. No, no, no, I'm not one of those guys. I World Peaceful from the World and Peaceful album. Okay, but the title song I remember John Coltrane, I love that. Yeah, boo that And it's just really none of the hits, none of the big like for us those other hits. You know, Little Children is one of my favorites of all. Yeah, you know that Never Don't Change. And the third would be fruit man. No, it's uh, we've got some rhythm songs in the Uh Caribbean Festival. Okay, yeah, I'll take that. Had all that looseness in it that should find and some of that then so when you hear it, you go, man, uh, about Babba Babba babba about horns. You know, I subb but just you know, it's the group and you got that, you know, so it was great. Okay, so making making those three like you you're your favorite. Yeah, you know, as I said the top of the show, man, it's it's really kind of our missionary on the show, just you know, to get flowers to legendary people that otherwise might not get there. They're just too as far as you know, a legacy that they set forth, and definitely you know for all of us here, you know, cool only Gang represents. I mean it's an institution of of just brilliance and you know it's sustained all music, all times, you know, all spaces and still strong to this day. I mean even my band you know, goes through a cool in the Gang moment in our current show and you know the songs are are but plus you'll have Jermaine Jermaine Bryson too. Yeah yeah Jermaine, Yes, I know that he plays with you guys. Brother Yeah, yeah, he plays he plays with them now yeah yeah, man, But we just thank you for coming on the show and we appreciate your you know, your legacy and and everything that you've done and all your breakbeats and everything. We love that. We love it to death. But thank you. You know, I'm not gonna say it's been a long, hard row. It's been a long beautiful row being as a creator, you know, because Ronald and I sit and come with materials, he and I are, especially back in the late seventies and early eighties. That's what we did. We just set in the studio and reverse things, put together live albums, you know from all the tapes, you know the deal, and just just had a ball and being the old night at six o'clock in the morning, he said, I'll see it in a few hours, come back again into that whole set. That that that's worth everything, you know, as far as creative people is concerned. That's that's worth it all, you know, and and and and it becoming successful too. And if it doesn't become successful, you go back in your tweet, what did we do? What's going on? So? And I appreciate you having me on as well. Thank you for being here. Thank you, But it makes it it's just like all of us, It makes it a little harder, you know, when you go up. I love your music. There you gotta you know the whole thing. They're during loving fans, but it truly truly hard folk. Thank you well, thank you Yeah on behalf of Sugar, Steve Fantigol on pay Bill, I myself h this quest Love Supreme. Shout out to Jacob Brittany, thank you pollowing it down, our family and iHeart and we'll see on next week on the next ground Quest Love Supreme. Don't don't forget brand new Coolna Gang album in store store stores. Why the Minister of information in this band. I'll take that all right next week, y'all. Thank you, Thank you busting What's Love Supreme is a production of igheart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.