How a Kid From Ohio Became One of the Most Influential Shark Scientists in the World

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Today on the Beyond Jaws Podcast,

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we have a very special

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guest, Dr. Taylor Chapple,

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who's here to talk

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about his career journey

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studying predators like sharks.

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Imagine that on the Beyond Jaws Podcast.

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He studied white

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sharks for about 15 years

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and a number of other different projects.

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He talks about how he

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meandered through that journey

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that we always see each and every year.

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And it's gonna be a lot

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of fun to talk about this.

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So you're not gonna

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wanna miss this episode.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back

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to another exciting episode

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of the Beyond Jaws Podcast.

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I'm your co-host, Angelo,

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and here with my co-host,

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Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, are you ready to talk

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about Dr. Taylor Chappell?

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Absolutely, I've been looking forward

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to having Taylor on the show.

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As you know, he travels a lot,

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so he's been kinda hard to get down

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and get him on to have time for himself.

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So we're really happy we

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were able to get him on here

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before he jets off to

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Argentina and Germany

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and who knows from there?

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Who knows where, yeah.

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Yeah, but no, we're

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really looking forward

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to talking about doing a shark research

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around the world and in Oregon.

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And I think people really enjoy it.

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He like a lot of the people we've had

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that are kind of in mid to late career,

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he's had quite of an interesting journey

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to get where he's at.

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And I think people

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really, really enjoy hearing

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his story about his

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journey to get where he is today

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in Oregon.

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Well, and also

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starting off in Ohio, right?

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Right by Lake Erie and

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starting to talk about how,

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you know, the great things

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he had to say about Lake Erie,

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which we'll hear in just a bit.

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And I think, you know, he's

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not the only one from his lab.

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I think there's two

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other people from the lab.

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Alex, who we've had on the Alex McIntyre,

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who we've had on the podcast before.

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And I think there's somebody else.

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James Silikowski.

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James Filikowski.

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Yeah, who has not

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been on the podcast yet.

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Not been on the podcast yet.

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We'll soon enough, but also from Ohio.

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So it's kind of cool

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that they're all from Ohio

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and they all end up on

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the coast studying sharks

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and predators.

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I think it's just great,

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but this is going to

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be a great interview.

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So here's the

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interview with Taylor talking

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about his career in

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predator prey relationships.

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Especially with sharks. Enjoy.

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And we'll talk to you after.

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Hey Taylor, welcome to

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about sharks?

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I'm so ready. Let's jump in.

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All right.

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Well, welcome to another episode of the

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Beyond Jaws podcast.

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We have another terrific guest today.

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We have Dr. Taylor Chappell,

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who's an assistant professor in the

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department of fisheries,

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wildlife and conservation

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sciences at coastal Oregon,

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Marine experiment

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station at Oregon state.

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And while that's a

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mouthful to say Taylor is a leader

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of the big fish lab where uses a variety

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of electronic tagging

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technology and analysis

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to study the movement behavior,

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physiology, habitat use

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and foraging ecology of

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large sharks and fish.

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He studied the

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movement patterns and behavior

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and population dynamics of sharks

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and other large Marine predators

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from California to

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South Africa and Australia.

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And among the species he's focused on

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is the white shark salmon shark

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and my favorite shark,

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the seven gills shark

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off the Oregon coast

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and how they affect

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the coastal ecosystem.

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Taylor has nearly a hundred publications

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and his lab focuses on Marine science,

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communication, education,

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developing and contributing to a

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significant outreach

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in science-based popular media.

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And I'll note that a lot of his events

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happen to be held at local breweries

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in Newport, Oregon, which if you're over

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there, they have some outstanding

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breweries, by the way,

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FYI, if you're listening.

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And as I mentioned his current position

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as assistant professor,

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he did a schooling, he did a bachelor's

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in biology with a concentration in marine

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science at Boston University

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and a PhD in ecology at the

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University of California Davis.

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And with that,

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welcome to the show, Taylor.

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Thanks. Thanks for having me.

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Yeah, so how did you get interested in

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marine science and sharks in particular?

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Well, you know, I mean, I have a probably

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the same story that

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every shark scientist does.

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I grew up in Ohio.

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And actually, I will say

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that it is pretty funny.

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I know that you've had

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Alex Mackinser-Fon here.

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Yeah.

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And who's, you know, part of the big

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field lab that that I run

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and James Zolikowski as well.

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All three of us are from

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the great state of Ohio.

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So as I like to say, it's a

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wonderful state to be from.

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Yeah. So I honestly, I did I did really

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start my my sort of career path in Ohio.

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I grew up right on Lake Erie.

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So right on the Great Lakes.

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And for anybody who hasn't been to the

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Great Lakes, they're incredible.

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They are massive. And so I think when

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people think of Lake, they think of, you

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know, that that thing that you can see

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across and you can swim

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across it at summer camp.

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But, you know, we're talking, you know,

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seventy five miles by thirty five miles

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and just huge bodies of water.

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And so I grew up swimming every day in

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the summer boating, you know, surfing the

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Great Lakes, all those things.

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And so it was really

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had this level of water.

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And I ended up in Boston where I sort of

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got into a lab that was doing a lot of

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predator prey dynamics and

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that just more or less, you know,

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sort of steamrolled into a study of

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sharks, because what better predator prey

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systems are there in the oceans than than

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sharks and everything else around them.

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So when you were going, how did you and

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how did you happen to pick just because

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they had a predator program there at

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Boston at Boston University?

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Yeah, I ended up I, you know, as as most

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high school going into undergrads are I

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wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do,

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but I was wanted to go into marine work.

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But I really loved playing soccer. So I

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ended up it be you because they had an

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incredible soccer program

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and a really good program.

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So I ended up similar to Alex Mackinac,

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we have we we live like this parallel

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lives just because she's a

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soccer player, too, right?

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Yeah, just maybe a few decades apart. But

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yeah, I ended up I ended up playing

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soccer for a couple of

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years when I was at BU as well.

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And so that's that's how I ended up

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there. But it was it was really

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fortuitous for me because the the marine

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program there and the opportunities to,

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you know, to work with fisheries, I think

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was really

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transformational in understanding.

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Really how good science can be if it's

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integrated with the folks that that, you

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know, care about the stakeholders.

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So whether it was the fishing communities

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in the Northeast or, you know, the the

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academics that were there, some of the

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nonprofits that I worked with as well, it

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was really a great place to be sort of in

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the communities that

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the research matter to.

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Yeah. Did you happen to work with like

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Greg Skoemel or any of the Narragansett

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people doing shark

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stuff up there at the time?

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So funny enough, I I knew of Skoemel, but

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hadn't I I didn't work with Skoemel until

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actually after I'd left Boston.

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I've got some funny

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stories that I won't tell about.

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This is the best time that we're in an

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American Elisabeth Bank Society meeting

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when he wore when he won a certain award

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that I won't mention on the air.

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But but I did. And then I did actually

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almost end up in their

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Gansett for grad school.

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And it it it was one of those

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transformational grad school interviews

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because I went into it.

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And this is a great for anybody out there

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that wants to go to grad school is I

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showed up with slacks on and a button

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down shirt and Lisa

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Nattanza looked at me.

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She said, hey, are you are you going to a

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business interview after this? So kind of

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put the the field of

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science in perspective for me.

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Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny is I had

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the same thing. I remember I used to work

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for the federal government here in Canada

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and it was fisheries and oceans.

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And we had a research lab and I walked in

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and I had like, you know, slacks and a

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button down top and everything like that.

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And I remember somebody pulling me aside.

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It's like, you know, you're like you're a

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scientist, right? Like,

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you know, you can come in.

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It's hot outside. It's the summer like

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short sandals. You're good. Like, it's

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OK. I was like, oh, OK. Gotcha.

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I'm like my mom's worst nightmare because

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she, you know, forever. She was like, oh,

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do you need a sports coat or something?

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I was like this t-shirt that I have on

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right now. This is like this is my fancy

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shirt. It doesn't have

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any holes in it, you know.

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I can picture I can picture Lisa, you

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know, Lisa and I did our masters together

278
01:08:16,958 --> 01:08:19,000
at Moss Landing back in the day.

279
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:20,458
So we got we get her and I go away and I

280
01:08:20,458 --> 01:08:22,458
could just absolutely picture her.

281
01:08:22,750 --> 01:08:24,541
You can walk with a button down how

282
01:08:24,541 --> 01:08:26,083
that's going to how that's going to go.

283
01:08:26,083 --> 01:08:28,333
Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the stories

284
01:08:28,333 --> 01:08:28,833
that will live with me forever.

285
01:08:28,875 --> 01:08:34,125
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so you

286
01:08:34,125 --> 01:08:36,083
so you so you didn't end up staying in

287
01:08:36,083 --> 01:08:37,666
the in the Northeast. Where did you where

288
01:08:37,666 --> 01:08:39,208
did you migrate to after

289
01:08:39,208 --> 01:08:41,125
after your undergrad degree?

290
01:08:41,333 --> 01:08:43,291
Yeah. So after undergrad, I you know, I

291
01:08:43,291 --> 01:08:44,541
had that idea that I was going to go

292
01:08:44,541 --> 01:08:47,333
straight into grad school and I actually

293
01:08:47,333 --> 01:08:50,000
got into a program in the Northeast and

294
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:50,833
funding the situation changes.

295
01:08:50,875 --> 01:08:55,166
So I ended up not losing my I guess I

296
01:08:55,166 --> 01:08:58,083
lost my position, lost my funding. So it

297
01:08:58,083 --> 01:08:59,916
was it was kind of past the window of

298
01:08:59,916 --> 01:09:01,708
applying to things. And so I went into,

299
01:09:02,125 --> 01:09:04,250
you know, now what do I do mode and I

300
01:09:04,250 --> 01:09:07,500
ended up working for AmeriCorps, which is

301
01:09:07,500 --> 01:09:09,416
sort of for the folks that don't know it

302
01:09:09,416 --> 01:09:10,791
is the domestic

303
01:09:10,791 --> 01:09:11,833
version of the Peace Corps.

304
01:09:11,833 --> 01:09:15,458
And so I worked for a group called Salish

305
01:09:15,458 --> 01:09:18,166
Sea Expeditions, which was a educational

306
01:09:18,166 --> 01:09:21,500
sailboat on the Puget Sound. And so I

307
01:09:21,500 --> 01:09:25,708
taught me science, water quality, you

308
01:09:25,708 --> 01:09:27,458
know, boat handling skills and things

309
01:09:27,458 --> 01:09:30,500
like that to students from underserved

310
01:09:30,500 --> 01:09:32,375
communities in the Seattle area.

311
01:09:33,083 --> 01:09:35,125
So that was a ended up being a really

312
01:09:35,125 --> 01:09:39,208
cool opportunity, you know, one of those

313
01:09:39,208 --> 01:09:41,458
like door shuts window opens cliches, but

314
01:09:41,458 --> 01:09:45,375
it really was another foundational moment

315
01:09:45,375 --> 01:09:48,750
to understand like how good it feels to

316
01:09:48,750 --> 01:09:51,666
be able to communicate the work that you

317
01:09:51,666 --> 01:09:56,750
do to folks that are that are excited and

318
01:09:56,750 --> 01:09:58,500
open to it and especially folks that

319
01:09:58,500 --> 01:10:00,791
don't often get that opportunity.

320
01:10:00,833 --> 01:10:03,541
So that was a really, I think for me was

321
01:10:03,541 --> 01:10:06,458
a really impressionable period in

322
01:10:06,458 --> 01:10:08,333
impactful, I should say period for me.

323
01:10:08,708 --> 01:10:10,500
There are a lot of those programs out

324
01:10:10,500 --> 01:10:12,500
West, like in Puget Sound to where you

325
01:10:12,500 --> 01:10:14,333
have a lot of boats that go out and and

326
01:10:14,333 --> 01:10:16,916
teach like elementary school students,

327
01:10:17,625 --> 01:10:19,625
underserved communities, high school

328
01:10:19,625 --> 01:10:21,208
students, I was actually part of a board

329
01:10:21,208 --> 01:10:22,625
for Pacific Marine Research.

330
01:10:22,875 --> 01:10:25,125
That was out in Puget Sound to they had a

331
01:10:25,125 --> 01:10:26,500
boat that they take out and it's like the

332
01:10:26,500 --> 01:10:28,041
marine science of float program. I think

333
01:10:28,041 --> 01:10:30,000
it was called it was a while ago and they

334
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:31,666
would take people out. They take kids out

335
01:10:31,666 --> 01:10:33,000
like from elementary schools and have

336
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:34,916
schools that go out and stuff like that.

337
01:10:34,916 --> 01:10:36,500
But Puget Sound is pretty big for that

338
01:10:36,500 --> 01:10:38,208
that kind of stuff. And you mentioned

339
01:10:38,208 --> 01:10:40,791
like being on a sailboat, you learn, you

340
01:10:40,791 --> 01:10:43,000
know, what it was like to be at sea. Did

341
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:44,708
you learn like anything? Did you learn

342
01:10:44,708 --> 01:10:46,958
anything like that while growing up near

343
01:10:46,958 --> 01:10:48,541
Lake Erie, like, you know, boat handling

344
01:10:48,541 --> 01:10:48,833
skills and things like that.

345
01:10:48,833 --> 01:10:51,500
But sailboats, I mean, you can probably

346
01:10:51,500 --> 01:10:54,875
sail on on on Lake Erie, but not not

347
01:10:54,875 --> 01:10:57,208
probably readily available, I guess,

348
01:10:57,208 --> 01:10:59,708
right? Yeah, well, no, I say I grew up

349
01:10:59,708 --> 01:11:02,500
sailing. And so did you? Okay. Yeah, I

350
01:11:02,500 --> 01:11:03,625
grew up racing sailboats.

351
01:11:04,541 --> 01:11:07,166
My dad still has the same boat since

352
01:11:07,166 --> 01:11:10,291
1980s. So I go every year to help him put

353
01:11:10,291 --> 01:11:11,833
it in the water, take it out. Actually, I

354
01:11:11,833 --> 01:11:13,875
don't have every year. He he reminds me

355
01:11:13,875 --> 01:11:15,000
when I don't go help him.

356
01:11:15,833 --> 01:11:20,958
But so yeah, so I grew up sailing. And so

357
01:11:20,958 --> 01:11:23,333
it was a for me, it was a great sort of a

358
01:11:23,333 --> 01:11:26,625
great step into, you know, an opportunity

359
01:11:26,625 --> 01:11:28,166
to use some of those skills that I had

360
01:11:28,166 --> 01:11:30,541
learned. And actually, up to that point,

361
01:11:30,541 --> 01:11:32,458
I had got my captain's

362
01:11:32,458 --> 01:11:34,041
license. So I have a sweet.

363
01:11:34,833 --> 01:11:37,541
I'm a licensed captain. So it was, you

364
01:11:37,541 --> 01:11:39,500
know, these these skills and experiences,

365
01:11:39,500 --> 01:11:41,625
I was able to bring the science and bring

366
01:11:41,625 --> 01:11:43,750
some of that sailing stuff, you know, all

367
01:11:43,750 --> 01:11:45,291
of these all these students and built a

368
01:11:45,291 --> 01:11:46,583
bunch of curriculum. So it was like a

369
01:11:46,583 --> 01:11:49,083
really cool hands on opportunity to see

370
01:11:49,083 --> 01:11:52,541
the things that I was interested in, as

371
01:11:52,541 --> 01:11:54,375
well as developing some more of those

372
01:11:54,375 --> 01:11:56,000
skills that ended up being, you know,

373
01:11:56,291 --> 01:11:58,083
curriculum development is a huge part of

374
01:11:58,083 --> 01:11:59,208
what I do as a professor.

375
01:12:00,333 --> 01:12:03,666
Did you ever feel at times, like, you

376
01:12:03,666 --> 01:12:05,833
were stuck? You know, like, did you ever

377
01:12:05,833 --> 01:12:07,416
did you ever like feel like, Oh, I don't

378
01:12:07,416 --> 01:12:09,125
want to be in this forever. I want to go

379
01:12:09,125 --> 01:12:11,208
back into research and like, because I

380
01:12:11,208 --> 01:12:12,750
know some people is sometimes when you

381
01:12:12,750 --> 01:12:14,708
you meander, right, you go in and out of

382
01:12:14,708 --> 01:12:16,833
what you want, maybe in your path, where

383
01:12:16,833 --> 01:12:17,833
you discover certain things.

384
01:12:17,875 --> 01:12:20,083
Did you ever feel like that on that boat?

385
01:12:20,083 --> 01:12:20,958
We're like, Am I going to do this

386
01:12:20,958 --> 01:12:22,208
forever? Am I going to do this for

387
01:12:22,208 --> 01:12:23,916
longer? Or I want to move out of that,

388
01:12:23,916 --> 01:12:26,083
that area, not to say that it was bad.

389
01:12:26,541 --> 01:12:27,958
But just in terms of like, where you've

390
01:12:27,958 --> 01:12:29,625
where you've come, like, is this what you

391
01:12:29,625 --> 01:12:31,250
always wanted? And did you ever feel

392
01:12:31,250 --> 01:12:32,250
stuck in that situation?

393
01:12:33,166 --> 01:12:34,625
No, I mean, that's a great question.

394
01:12:34,625 --> 01:12:35,833
Because that's, that's usually when I

395
01:12:35,833 --> 01:12:37,166
have students come into my office and

396
01:12:37,166 --> 01:12:38,500
say, you know, how did you get where you

397
01:12:38,500 --> 01:12:41,708
are? You know, this is the these are the

398
01:12:41,708 --> 01:12:42,958
examples that I give them. And I'm like,

399
01:12:42,958 --> 01:12:45,041
there's there is no linear path that I

400
01:12:45,041 --> 01:12:49,541
took. And most of what I did was figured

401
01:12:49,541 --> 01:12:52,208
out things I didn't want to do. You know,

402
01:12:52,208 --> 01:12:55,041
I think as a young person, we have this,

403
01:12:55,291 --> 01:12:57,500
these ideas of like, I'm going to do this

404
01:12:57,500 --> 01:12:58,458
and this and this. And this

405
01:12:58,458 --> 01:12:59,583
is where I'm going to get to.

406
01:12:59,833 --> 01:13:02,958
But the reality of it is that it's

407
01:13:02,958 --> 01:13:05,000
there's so many cool things to do along

408
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:08,333
the way that it's it's fun to to to try

409
01:13:08,333 --> 01:13:11,333
it. And it's great to be able to narrow

410
01:13:11,333 --> 01:13:13,250
down the things you don't want to do. So,

411
01:13:13,250 --> 01:13:15,500
you know, having an experience that you

412
01:13:15,500 --> 01:13:17,500
don't like is in my mind almost more

413
01:13:17,500 --> 01:13:20,125
valuable than, you know, than those

414
01:13:20,125 --> 01:13:21,625
experiences you do. And there are parts

415
01:13:21,625 --> 01:13:23,916
that, you know, that I loved about that,

416
01:13:23,916 --> 01:13:26,666
that education part of it. But as you

417
01:13:26,666 --> 01:13:28,333
said, it wasn't everything I wanted to

418
01:13:28,333 --> 01:13:28,833
do. You know, I wasn't.

419
01:13:28,875 --> 01:13:32,125
I wasn't doing cutting edge science. I

420
01:13:32,125 --> 01:13:35,333
wasn't leading these big questions that I

421
01:13:35,333 --> 01:13:37,083
had about the world. I was helping

422
01:13:37,083 --> 01:13:39,000
students understand how water quality

423
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,875
worked and the relationship between, you

424
01:13:41,875 --> 01:13:45,166
know, dissolved oxygen and, you know,

425
01:13:45,541 --> 01:13:46,625
plankton in the water.

426
01:13:46,625 --> 01:13:49,250
But I wasn't I wasn't answering and

427
01:13:49,250 --> 01:13:50,875
asking the questions that I really wanted

428
01:13:50,875 --> 01:13:54,458
to. So it was great. But I knew that that

429
01:13:54,458 --> 01:13:54,833
wasn't the right place for me.

430
01:13:54,833 --> 01:13:57,833
Did you at this point where you have, did

431
01:13:57,833 --> 01:13:59,208
you have any particular interest in

432
01:13:59,208 --> 01:14:04,166
sharks or at that point or I did, but I

433
01:14:04,166 --> 01:14:07,208
had that interest in sharks in terms of

434
01:14:07,208 --> 01:14:10,750
they were cool. And someday that'd be fun

435
01:14:10,750 --> 01:14:14,375
to do, but not in the sense of, you know,

436
01:14:15,291 --> 01:14:17,000
understanding them in a real meaningful

437
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,500
way or thinking that my career was going

438
01:14:19,500 --> 01:14:20,833
to be about sharks in a meaningful way.

439
01:14:20,833 --> 01:14:23,041
I thought that, yeah, you know, sharks

440
01:14:23,041 --> 01:14:24,708
are they're they're cool and incredible.

441
01:14:25,666 --> 01:14:29,291
I actually remember my my last year in

442
01:14:29,291 --> 01:14:33,000
undergrad, I was living and working down

443
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:35,416
in Woods Hole. And that's when the big

444
01:14:35,416 --> 01:14:38,458
NASA geographic sort of centerfold spread

445
01:14:38,458 --> 01:14:40,625
of California white sharks.

446
01:14:40,875 --> 01:14:44,750
I remember, you know, this this this fold

447
01:14:44,750 --> 01:14:46,750
out of folks tagging sharks. And I

448
01:14:46,750 --> 01:14:48,708
remember being like, that's the coolest

449
01:14:48,708 --> 01:14:49,958
thing. And the white shark is on the

450
01:14:49,958 --> 01:14:51,916
cover of the big jaw wide open, you know.

451
01:14:52,291 --> 01:14:53,458
And I remember thinking that would be

452
01:14:53,458 --> 01:14:56,083
amazing to do. I didn't have any

453
01:14:56,083 --> 01:14:58,791
aspirations at that time that 15 years

454
01:14:58,791 --> 01:15:00,750
down the road that that person doing that

455
01:15:00,750 --> 01:15:02,708
tagging was going to be me, you know, and

456
01:15:02,708 --> 01:15:03,625
those people in that photo

457
01:15:03,625 --> 01:15:04,625
were going to be my colleagues.

458
01:15:04,875 --> 01:15:08,083
So it's just it was a, you know, kind of

459
01:15:08,083 --> 01:15:12,000
a windy road to get there. But I do

460
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:14,666
remember these these sort of like seminal

461
01:15:14,666 --> 01:15:17,333
or pivotal parts of my life that that

462
01:15:17,333 --> 01:15:18,833
sort of steered the directionality of it.

463
01:15:18,875 --> 01:15:22,791
Okay, so you're in the Pacific Northwest

464
01:15:22,791 --> 01:15:24,208
doing the stuff there at the water

465
01:15:24,208 --> 01:15:27,458
quality and then kind of worded, how did

466
01:15:27,458 --> 01:15:29,833
you do from there? So then the next so

467
01:15:29,833 --> 01:15:32,375
that was like a, you know, that's like a

468
01:15:32,375 --> 01:15:35,083
two year or year and a half stint that I

469
01:15:35,083 --> 01:15:37,750
did that. And then I ended up in the

470
01:15:37,750 --> 01:15:39,375
observer program at the

471
01:15:39,375 --> 01:15:39,833
Florida Museum of Natural History.

472
01:15:39,833 --> 01:15:43,750
So down working with George Burgess as an

473
01:15:43,750 --> 01:15:46,000
observer. And so I worked with George for

474
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:48,041
for a bit. And then I went over and

475
01:15:48,041 --> 01:15:51,041
worked with and record says and John

476
01:15:51,041 --> 01:15:57,000
Carlson over at the labs for the

477
01:15:57,000 --> 01:15:58,833
population assessment group over there.

478
01:15:59,833 --> 01:16:02,958
And so I just kind of that's the point

479
01:16:02,958 --> 01:16:06,166
that I got into sharks more, I guess

480
01:16:06,166 --> 01:16:08,458
significantly is when I really started to

481
01:16:08,458 --> 01:16:10,291
get into the science of the sharks and

482
01:16:10,291 --> 01:16:11,625
really interested in them because I got a

483
01:16:11,625 --> 01:16:14,916
lot more hands on opportunity and it is

484
01:16:14,916 --> 01:16:16,833
you all know, like the more that you're

485
01:16:16,833 --> 01:16:19,833
in an environment like the questions and

486
01:16:19,833 --> 01:16:20,500
the interest and all this

487
01:16:20,500 --> 01:16:21,625
things just sort of pop up.

488
01:16:21,625 --> 01:16:22,833
They just start happening, right? Because you've experienced these things. Yeah.

489
01:16:23,833 --> 01:16:27,500
And so what point did you decide like,

490
01:16:27,708 --> 01:16:29,000
okay, I'm going to go back and do a PhD

491
01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:36,208
now versus I was sitting in a in a talk

492
01:16:36,208 --> 01:16:38,250
where it was just like one of those like

493
01:16:38,250 --> 01:16:40,500
small little, you know, like a handful of

494
01:16:40,500 --> 01:16:43,166
people from the population assessment

495
01:16:43,166 --> 01:16:43,833
group in Panama City.

496
01:16:43,916 --> 01:16:47,000
And I remember it was John Carlson, and

497
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:49,250
he was doing this this population growth

498
01:16:49,250 --> 01:16:52,208
curve. And I just remember looking at it.

499
01:16:52,208 --> 01:16:54,666
And he and he was talking about how the,

500
01:16:55,291 --> 01:16:57,000
you know, just have some different

501
01:16:57,000 --> 01:16:59,000
parameters like fecundity and things go

502
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:00,000
into making this curve.

503
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:01,125
And I just remember sitting there and be

504
01:17:01,125 --> 01:17:03,458
like, I like math. And I like sharks.

505
01:17:03,916 --> 01:17:06,500
This looks super cool. I was like, and it

506
01:17:06,500 --> 01:17:07,958
was at that moment, I was like, you know,

507
01:17:07,958 --> 01:17:09,500
I think I want to, I want to

508
01:17:09,500 --> 01:17:10,833
be a shark population modeler.

509
01:17:10,875 --> 01:17:14,541
And so that's just sort of where the

510
01:17:14,541 --> 01:17:16,166
trajectory went. It was just this one

511
01:17:16,166 --> 01:17:18,083
random sort of like lunchtime, you know,

512
01:17:18,291 --> 01:17:21,041
meeting presentation that we had. And

513
01:17:21,041 --> 01:17:23,750
that that got me sort of rolling on the

514
01:17:23,750 --> 01:17:25,791
work that I did for my PhD.

515
01:17:25,875 --> 01:17:30,666
So I ended up going to UC Davis and

516
01:17:30,666 --> 01:17:33,166
worked with a population modeler, a

517
01:17:33,166 --> 01:17:35,541
professor named Lou Bosford, Lou didn't

518
01:17:35,541 --> 01:17:38,666
know the first thing about sharks, like

519
01:17:38,666 --> 01:17:41,708
sharks were some fish in the ocean. But

520
01:17:41,708 --> 01:17:43,500
what Lou is incredible at is incredible

521
01:17:43,500 --> 01:17:45,333
at modeling marine ecosystems.

522
01:17:46,291 --> 01:17:48,583
And so I talked to talk to Lou and said,

523
01:17:48,583 --> 01:17:50,208
hey, I'm really interested in sharks. We

524
01:17:50,208 --> 01:17:51,916
don't know a ton. We don't have a ton of

525
01:17:51,916 --> 01:17:54,166
data about them for these questions that

526
01:17:54,166 --> 01:17:56,958
you ask. But I'm sure you could teach me

527
01:17:56,958 --> 01:17:58,750
some methods that I could start to

528
01:17:58,750 --> 01:18:00,500
assess. And that's how I ended up in grad

529
01:18:00,500 --> 01:18:02,500
school there at UC Davis.

530
01:18:03,666 --> 01:18:04,500
Was Louis Barnett

531
01:18:04,500 --> 01:18:05,416
there when you were there?

532
01:18:06,250 --> 01:18:08,583
He was not there yet. Actually, Lewis and

533
01:18:08,583 --> 01:18:11,708
I were in Panama City together. So he was

534
01:18:11,708 --> 01:18:14,000
the labs in Panama City at the same time.

535
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:17,000
So he and I overlapped there. And then we

536
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:19,375
we basically just missed each other at

537
01:18:19,375 --> 01:18:20,416
Davis after those guys.

538
01:18:20,666 --> 01:18:21,708
He came out. He came out and was a

539
01:18:21,708 --> 01:18:24,125
master's student of mine at Moss Landing.

540
01:18:24,416 --> 01:18:26,208
But you like you went straight to a PhD

541
01:18:26,208 --> 01:18:29,041
versus like a master's degree, which is

542
01:18:29,041 --> 01:18:31,000
kind of how that how'd you had you how'd

543
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:33,833
you make that decision to to PhD?

544
01:18:33,875 --> 01:18:37,791
Yeah, I think that that I had I had spent

545
01:18:37,791 --> 01:18:39,500
enough time, you know, I spent the last

546
01:18:39,500 --> 01:18:41,333
couple years in between undergrad and

547
01:18:41,333 --> 01:18:43,958
grad school to to think about what I

548
01:18:43,958 --> 01:18:47,250
wanted to do. And in I guess in my mind,

549
01:18:47,250 --> 01:18:51,291
the Masters is a great time for thinking

550
01:18:51,291 --> 01:18:53,833
about and experiencing and trying things

551
01:18:53,833 --> 01:18:55,708
to a degree to figure out what you really

552
01:18:55,708 --> 01:18:57,458
want to do. And I sort of took that that

553
01:18:57,458 --> 01:18:59,833
two years of gap years to do that.

554
01:18:59,875 --> 01:19:03,416
And so when Lou had a position available,

555
01:19:04,833 --> 01:19:06,500
I thought that, you know, this is a great

556
01:19:06,500 --> 01:19:08,625
opportunity. I could just go into a PhD.

557
01:19:08,875 --> 01:19:12,791
And the questions that I had were big and

558
01:19:12,791 --> 01:19:15,083
long enough that I couldn't do them in a,

559
01:19:15,083 --> 01:19:19,041
you know, it took me six years to be able

560
01:19:19,041 --> 01:19:20,750
to come up with a long enough time series

561
01:19:20,750 --> 01:19:22,083
to do these abundance

562
01:19:22,083 --> 01:19:23,125
estimates of white sharks.

563
01:19:23,333 --> 01:19:25,125
And so it just wasn't in the timeframe

564
01:19:25,125 --> 01:19:26,166
that I would have been

565
01:19:26,166 --> 01:19:27,250
able to do them for a Masters.

566
01:19:28,125 --> 01:19:29,166
Yeah, I'm as curious because a lot of

567
01:19:29,166 --> 01:19:30,625
most a lot of students typically do the

568
01:19:30,625 --> 01:19:33,166
Masters and go to the PhD and whereas you

569
01:19:33,166 --> 01:19:34,666
went straight to the PhD. But I think

570
01:19:34,666 --> 01:19:36,916
like you said, you had a couple gap years

571
01:19:36,916 --> 01:19:38,333
where you're out working in the field and

572
01:19:38,333 --> 01:19:39,583
you got a better, clearer

573
01:19:39,583 --> 01:19:40,833
idea what you're going to do.

574
01:19:40,875 --> 01:19:42,833
Yeah, and I think that's the key, you

575
01:19:42,833 --> 01:19:45,708
know, it's the PhD is like it's such an

576
01:19:45,708 --> 01:19:48,750
investment, right? It's five years, seven

577
01:19:48,750 --> 01:19:51,000
years, sometimes more than that. And you

578
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:52,625
really want to know that what you're

579
01:19:52,625 --> 01:19:55,541
doing is what you want to do. And it's

580
01:19:55,541 --> 01:19:56,041
going to be meaningful

581
01:19:56,041 --> 01:19:56,833
because you've got it.

582
01:19:56,875 --> 01:19:58,291
Yeah, you know, as you don't know, it's

583
01:19:58,291 --> 01:19:59,750
like you've typecasted yourself after

584
01:19:59,750 --> 01:20:01,791
that, right? Yeah, exactly. And you've

585
01:20:01,791 --> 01:20:04,208
got you've got three years of grind, like

586
01:20:04,208 --> 01:20:06,166
four years of fun field work or whatever.

587
01:20:06,166 --> 01:20:07,500
And then three years of grind and

588
01:20:07,500 --> 01:20:09,500
analysis. And you've got to really, you

589
01:20:09,500 --> 01:20:11,750
know, you got to really love it. Yeah.

590
01:20:12,416 --> 01:20:14,083
How did you, how did you get into Davis

591
01:20:14,083 --> 01:20:15,958
there and Lou wasn't wasn't really a

592
01:20:15,958 --> 01:20:19,041
shark guy. How did you wind up getting

593
01:20:19,041 --> 01:20:20,166
into doing the white sharks?

594
01:20:21,958 --> 01:20:24,625
It's a really, that's another really

595
01:20:24,625 --> 01:20:26,416
funny story. Again, it's like, I feel

596
01:20:26,416 --> 01:20:29,041
like all of these these stories you asked

597
01:20:29,041 --> 01:20:30,375
these questions, and it's these like

598
01:20:30,375 --> 01:20:33,625
offhand interactions that end up, you

599
01:20:33,625 --> 01:20:36,750
know, being pivotal. And I would say this

600
01:20:36,750 --> 01:20:38,041
to my wife, and she's like, well, you

601
01:20:38,041 --> 01:20:39,500
know, that's not necessarily true.

602
01:20:39,875 --> 01:20:42,291
You put yourself in those positions to

603
01:20:42,291 --> 01:20:44,375
have those random conversations that led

604
01:20:44,375 --> 01:20:46,500
you where you are. So I think it's a

605
01:20:46,500 --> 01:20:49,916
little bit of a mix. But I was, it was a

606
01:20:49,916 --> 01:20:53,541
brand new student in Lou's lab. And I sat

607
01:20:53,541 --> 01:20:56,916
next to one of the senior grad students,

608
01:20:56,916 --> 01:20:59,000
a guy named Sal Jorgensen, who many

609
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:01,958
listeners will know. And Sal and I were

610
01:21:01,958 --> 01:21:05,791
just chit chatting. And all of a sudden

611
01:21:05,791 --> 01:21:07,083
out of nowhere, the

612
01:21:07,083 --> 01:21:08,833
door flies open in this,

613
01:21:09,833 --> 01:21:14,458
man in socks jumps in. And, you know, I'm

614
01:21:14,458 --> 01:21:15,958
like startled and Sal goes, Oh, hey,

615
01:21:15,958 --> 01:21:17,291
Taylor, this is Pete, Clemly.

616
01:21:17,833 --> 01:21:19,833
I knew you're going with that.

617
01:21:19,875 --> 01:21:24,708
So he just, you know, pizza in the socks

618
01:21:24,708 --> 01:21:27,000
just jumped into the room and is like,

619
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:29,500
Hey, Sal, we just, you know, we got this

620
01:21:29,500 --> 01:21:32,583
funding with bar block at the aquarium to

621
01:21:32,583 --> 01:21:34,416
do some white shark work. Do you know

622
01:21:34,416 --> 01:21:36,291
anybody that would be interested in a

623
01:21:36,291 --> 01:21:37,666
project? And I literally was sitting

624
01:21:37,666 --> 01:21:39,833
there like, Holy crap, it

625
01:21:39,833 --> 01:21:40,833
literally fell into your lap.

626
01:21:40,875 --> 01:21:42,583
Yeah, exactly.

627
01:22:09,833 --> 01:22:11,750
I've known Pete since he finished his PhD

628
01:22:11,750 --> 01:22:13,791
back in the early 80s when I was a master

629
01:22:13,791 --> 01:22:16,291
student. I can when you describe that you

630
01:22:16,291 --> 01:22:19,291
just described. I can completely picture

631
01:22:19,291 --> 01:22:21,833
Pete in my mind, which you just described

632
01:22:21,833 --> 01:22:26,000
there. So I can I can get that. So so so

633
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:27,916
so you got Lou and you got Pete on board.

634
01:22:27,916 --> 01:22:29,083
And I guess Barb was Barb

635
01:22:29,083 --> 01:22:31,833
block was also involved in the.

636
01:22:32,166 --> 01:22:34,458
Yeah, so Barb was the sort of the PI on

637
01:22:34,458 --> 01:22:38,000
the on the the white shark side of it.

638
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:39,958
She actually wasn't on my on my

639
01:22:39,958 --> 01:22:42,541
committee, but she was, you know, the

640
01:22:42,541 --> 01:22:44,833
part that I have was a was a very small

641
01:22:44,833 --> 01:22:46,666
part of that that much larger tagging

642
01:22:46,666 --> 01:22:48,125
Pacific Plagics projects.

643
01:22:48,875 --> 01:22:51,708
And so it turned out that that is I

644
01:22:51,708 --> 01:22:53,583
started the project Sal actually finished

645
01:22:53,583 --> 01:22:56,416
up his PhD and then moved over to be a

646
01:22:56,416 --> 01:22:59,083
postdoc in Barb's lab. And so then Sal,

647
01:22:59,583 --> 01:23:02,583
you know, going from being my mentor, you

648
01:23:02,583 --> 01:23:04,750
know, grad student sort of mentor in

649
01:23:04,750 --> 01:23:07,083
Lou's lab, he came this postdoc mentor of

650
01:23:07,083 --> 01:23:08,833
me, you know, over in Barb's lab.

651
01:23:08,875 --> 01:23:10,666
So it was, you know, it was really

652
01:23:10,666 --> 01:23:14,291
incredible for me to have, you know,

653
01:23:14,291 --> 01:23:16,583
someone said that that I knew that could

654
01:23:16,583 --> 01:23:18,208
be such an advocate for me and really

655
01:23:18,208 --> 01:23:19,125
help mentor me through

656
01:23:19,125 --> 01:23:20,375
these these projects.

657
01:23:21,041 --> 01:23:23,333
And you spent six years on that in your

658
01:23:23,333 --> 01:23:25,541
PhD going through that. Yeah, somewhere

659
01:23:25,541 --> 01:23:26,666
between five and five

660
01:23:26,666 --> 01:23:27,833
and six. Yeah, five. Yeah.

661
01:23:27,875 --> 01:23:29,750
Yeah, I just, just so people listening,

662
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:31,791
young people get an idea, like the time

663
01:23:31,791 --> 01:23:32,666
commitments involved

664
01:23:32,666 --> 01:23:34,208
with like a PhD today.

665
01:23:35,458 --> 01:23:36,916
Try to tell students, like, if you're

666
01:23:36,916 --> 01:23:38,416
going to do that, it's it's a big jump

667
01:23:38,416 --> 01:23:41,125
from like a master's degree and stuff.

668
01:23:41,125 --> 01:23:42,833
Yeah. Think about what you got to be

669
01:23:42,833 --> 01:23:45,500
fully committed to doing that. Yeah.

670
01:23:45,500 --> 01:23:47,166
And you know, initially to write like

671
01:23:47,166 --> 01:23:48,500
it's because you have worked you worked

672
01:23:48,500 --> 01:23:50,041
for a bit. And then you're going back

673
01:23:50,041 --> 01:23:52,166
into this financially after being in

674
01:23:52,166 --> 01:23:54,125
school for a little bit like that's a

675
01:23:54,125 --> 01:23:55,833
that's a big commitment to.

676
01:23:56,500 --> 01:23:58,791
Yeah. And, you know, I think learning how

677
01:23:58,791 --> 01:24:01,666
the how the funding scheme works in a as

678
01:24:01,666 --> 01:24:04,458
for a grad student is is it's really eye

679
01:24:04,458 --> 01:24:06,208
opening because, you know, I think as an

680
01:24:06,208 --> 01:24:07,000
undergrad, I never

681
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:08,125
really thought about that.

682
01:24:08,125 --> 01:24:09,583
I never thought that, like, you know, how

683
01:24:09,583 --> 01:24:11,666
do you actually like get a stipend, pay

684
01:24:11,666 --> 01:24:13,916
tuition, you know, all those things. It's

685
01:24:13,916 --> 01:24:17,291
it is a it is kind of a crazy.

686
01:24:18,833 --> 01:24:20,333
And I guess it's very different to

687
01:24:20,333 --> 01:24:22,125
depending on the university you go to. So

688
01:24:22,125 --> 01:24:24,208
that's sort of a thing for students that

689
01:24:24,208 --> 01:24:26,208
they're interested in going to grad

690
01:24:26,208 --> 01:24:28,666
school is to really think about not only

691
01:24:28,666 --> 01:24:31,041
the program you're going to, but, you

692
01:24:31,041 --> 01:24:33,541
know, the benefits and the structure and

693
01:24:33,541 --> 01:24:34,125
all those things that

694
01:24:34,125 --> 01:24:35,166
are there to support you.

695
01:24:36,166 --> 01:24:37,791
I didn't think I'd ever be on a podcast

696
01:24:37,791 --> 01:24:41,708
talking about finances and things like

697
01:24:41,708 --> 01:24:43,916
this, you know, but it's it's the reality

698
01:24:43,916 --> 01:24:44,833
of, you know, right. Yeah.

699
01:24:44,833 --> 01:24:47,708
Reality of the field. Well, trust me,

700
01:24:47,708 --> 01:24:48,958
there's there's a lot of young students

701
01:24:48,958 --> 01:24:50,875
listening right now that had to have I'm

702
01:24:50,875 --> 01:24:52,583
sure hadn't even thought that far yet as

703
01:24:52,583 --> 01:24:55,208
far as like the financial commitment to

704
01:24:55,208 --> 01:24:56,958
especially when you've been working for a

705
01:24:56,958 --> 01:24:57,875
while, then you go back

706
01:24:57,875 --> 01:24:59,458
to being a poor student.

707
01:25:00,083 --> 01:25:02,000
It's not a it's not an easy. It's not an

708
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:04,375
easy, you know, easy way to go. I did

709
01:25:04,375 --> 01:25:06,958
that myself between my pH or between my

710
01:25:06,958 --> 01:25:08,791
master's and PhD. It's kind of nice

711
01:25:08,791 --> 01:25:10,041
getting out and making some money and

712
01:25:10,041 --> 01:25:11,333
you're thinking I've got to give up all

713
01:25:11,333 --> 01:25:12,583
this frickin money to go back

714
01:25:12,583 --> 01:25:14,291
and be a poor student again.

715
01:25:14,500 --> 01:25:17,791
It's not easy to do. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah.

716
01:25:17,791 --> 01:25:18,708
So you got through it. So you got

717
01:25:18,708 --> 01:25:20,250
through. So when you finished up your

718
01:25:20,250 --> 01:25:21,791
PhD, what was your next step?

719
01:25:22,833 --> 01:25:24,958
So, and I will say that I actually

720
01:25:24,958 --> 01:25:26,875
finished the PhD faster than I had

721
01:25:26,875 --> 01:25:32,833
expected because my wife now my partner

722
01:25:32,833 --> 01:25:34,708
at the time was finishing up she was a

723
01:25:34,708 --> 01:25:36,083
couple years ahead of me and we both had

724
01:25:36,083 --> 01:25:39,166
postdoc positions at the Max Planck

725
01:25:39,166 --> 01:25:40,166
Institute in Germany.

726
01:25:40,875 --> 01:25:46,250
So I'll go to another random story. So

727
01:25:46,250 --> 01:25:49,125
she is in the was in the animal behavior

728
01:25:49,125 --> 01:25:56,125
department in Davis and she was hosting a

729
01:25:56,125 --> 01:25:58,000
speaker this guy named Martin Wieckowski

730
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:01,500
who was coming over from from Princeton

731
01:26:01,500 --> 01:26:03,833
and we're we're kind of chitchat.

732
01:26:03,875 --> 01:26:05,250
She's like, I think I will host him in

733
01:26:05,250 --> 01:26:07,333
our house because he might have some

734
01:26:07,333 --> 01:26:09,375
postdoc positions. He's going to be

735
01:26:09,375 --> 01:26:11,000
moving to Germany and blah, blah, blah.

736
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:12,625
And I was like, cool. Let's let's see

737
01:26:12,625 --> 01:26:16,125
what he's like. And so after the seminar,

738
01:26:16,416 --> 01:26:18,041
Mark came to our place and we're trying

739
01:26:18,041 --> 01:26:20,541
to test the waters a little bit with him.

740
01:26:20,666 --> 01:26:23,583
So we had these like pink puffy glitter

741
01:26:23,583 --> 01:26:26,208
slippers and we put him in Martin's room

742
01:26:26,208 --> 01:26:28,375
and we're like, let's see what he does

743
01:26:28,375 --> 01:26:29,750
with these. We kind of get a sense of

744
01:26:29,750 --> 01:26:31,666
what what our what her supervisor was

745
01:26:31,666 --> 01:26:32,833
going to be like. And you know, he goes into the room.

746
01:26:32,833 --> 01:26:35,083
Five minutes later, he walks out with

747
01:26:35,083 --> 01:26:37,416
these pink fuzzy puffy slippers on just

748
01:26:37,416 --> 01:26:41,000
like nothing happened. And so, you know,

749
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:42,208
it was like, all right, well, you know,

750
01:26:42,208 --> 01:26:44,000
this is cool. This guy is, you know, he

751
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:46,166
seems like a decent human being and he's

752
01:26:46,166 --> 01:26:48,083
super smart. So let's let's talk. And so

753
01:26:48,083 --> 01:26:49,083
we started chatting with him and he

754
01:26:49,083 --> 01:26:50,166
looked at me. He goes, well, what do you

755
01:26:50,166 --> 01:26:52,500
do? And I said, well, you know, I stay

756
01:26:52,500 --> 01:26:54,458
movements behaviors, but it's mostly in

757
01:26:54,458 --> 01:26:56,041
sharks. And he's like, oh, that's cool.

758
01:26:56,375 --> 01:26:57,791
That's cool. Tell me a little bit more.

759
01:26:57,791 --> 01:26:59,500
So I told him a little bit. He's like, do

760
01:26:59,500 --> 01:27:00,708
you want to come to a postdoc to?

761
01:27:02,875 --> 01:27:04,833
And I was like, just like that, like

762
01:27:04,833 --> 01:27:09,250
literally like that. And we, well, yeah,

763
01:27:09,625 --> 01:27:11,416
sure. Okay. You know, like one of those

764
01:27:11,416 --> 01:27:13,291
deals. I'll move to Germany. No problem.

765
01:27:13,833 --> 01:27:16,875
Yeah. Sounds great. And so like, you

766
01:27:16,875 --> 01:27:18,500
know, the night went on and then the next

767
01:27:18,500 --> 01:27:19,791
morning we were driving him to the

768
01:27:19,791 --> 01:27:23,375
airport and and I kind of looked at him

769
01:27:23,375 --> 01:27:26,541
and said, just you, you did say that last

770
01:27:26,541 --> 01:27:27,958
night, right? Like, and he was like, oh,

771
01:27:27,958 --> 01:27:29,208
yeah, yeah. You know, he's like, here's

772
01:27:29,208 --> 01:27:31,125
the logistics, blah, blah, blah. So it

773
01:27:31,125 --> 01:27:32,416
ended up that, you know,

774
01:27:32,875 --> 01:27:34,833
just in that random conversation of

775
01:27:34,833 --> 01:27:36,166
chatting with somebody about what we do,

776
01:27:36,166 --> 01:27:37,250
having hosting hosting one of the

777
01:27:37,250 --> 01:27:39,333
speakers that we both ended up with

778
01:27:39,333 --> 01:27:41,833
postdocs in Germany. We spent the next

779
01:27:41,833 --> 01:27:45,375
two years doing she was doing bird

780
01:27:45,375 --> 01:27:46,875
movement. And I was doing shark

781
01:27:46,875 --> 01:27:48,250
movements, but we are, you know, based

782
01:27:48,250 --> 01:27:50,708
out of Germany. So it's again, it's like

783
01:27:50,708 --> 01:27:51,500
these things that come

784
01:27:51,500 --> 01:27:53,083
up that you never expect.

785
01:27:53,500 --> 01:27:54,750
So your wife also do

786
01:27:54,750 --> 01:27:56,875
movements do animal movements.

787
01:27:57,250 --> 01:27:59,666
Yeah, so she's she's an eco physiologist.

788
01:27:59,916 --> 01:28:03,500
And so she's studies a lot of the

789
01:28:03,500 --> 01:28:06,375
decision making that that birds make and

790
01:28:06,375 --> 01:28:10,208
I guess animals in general. And so her

791
01:28:10,208 --> 01:28:11,958
work is actually really similar to the

792
01:28:11,958 --> 01:28:14,166
work that I do, you know, I'll sit with a

793
01:28:14,166 --> 01:28:15,375
decoy out the back of the boat waiting

794
01:28:15,375 --> 01:28:16,750
for a shark to come up to it. She'll sit

795
01:28:16,750 --> 01:28:18,416
at a net and wait for a bird to come down

796
01:28:18,416 --> 01:28:22,000
and then put, you know, VHF tags or heart

797
01:28:22,000 --> 01:28:23,541
rate tags on them and then track them.

798
01:28:23,541 --> 01:28:25,208
And so it's, it's

799
01:28:25,208 --> 01:28:26,625
really cool, you know, it has

800
01:28:26,708 --> 01:28:29,166
the same parallel work that we do in the

801
01:28:29,166 --> 01:28:30,166
ocean. She does in the air.

802
01:28:30,916 --> 01:28:32,583
Oh, cool. That's neat. That's that's

803
01:28:32,583 --> 01:28:35,166
really neat. Yeah. So how was Germany?

804
01:28:35,166 --> 01:28:36,250
You had two years there. Is it pretty

805
01:28:36,250 --> 01:28:37,500
sound like you had a good time there?

806
01:28:38,041 --> 01:28:40,958
Yeah, it was amazing. It was both

807
01:28:40,958 --> 01:28:42,791
culturally incredible. You know, the

808
01:28:42,791 --> 01:28:45,500
people were wonderful. But also the

809
01:28:45,500 --> 01:28:47,083
science is super cool. We

810
01:28:47,083 --> 01:28:48,666
were at the mocksplunk in the

811
01:28:48,708 --> 01:28:52,750
that's a this time. Yeah. Yeah. So the

812
01:28:52,750 --> 01:28:54,000
mocksplunk is cool because it's sort of

813
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:55,958
like it's almost like the USGS where you

814
01:28:55,958 --> 01:28:59,000
have these like offices all over the

815
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:01,125
country that serve different like there's

816
01:29:01,125 --> 01:29:03,041
a you know, there's a mocksplunk

817
01:29:03,041 --> 01:29:05,041
Institute for molecular biology. There's

818
01:29:05,041 --> 01:29:07,208
one for animal. Now it's animal behavior

819
01:29:07,208 --> 01:29:09,666
and you know, these expert sort of

820
01:29:09,666 --> 01:29:12,500
institutes. And so we were housed with,

821
01:29:12,500 --> 01:29:15,250
you know, 50 other scientists from around

822
01:29:15,250 --> 01:29:17,458
the world that were, you know, experts in

823
01:29:17,458 --> 01:29:18,583
their field and it was a

824
01:29:18,916 --> 01:29:21,125
it was an ornithological Institute. So a

825
01:29:21,125 --> 01:29:23,208
lot of bird people, but there were, you

826
01:29:23,208 --> 01:29:25,041
know, there was a young researcher

827
01:29:25,041 --> 01:29:27,958
studying sleep behavior in sloths. So

828
01:29:27,958 --> 01:29:30,208
they were actually like, putting these

829
01:29:30,208 --> 01:29:32,291
electrodes into the brain of sloths and

830
01:29:32,291 --> 01:29:34,125
seeing how much they sleep in the wild

831
01:29:34,125 --> 01:29:35,958
compared to in captivity and you know,

832
01:29:35,958 --> 01:29:37,833
just like all these incredible,

833
01:29:37,833 --> 01:29:38,916
incredible people just

834
01:29:38,916 --> 01:29:41,000
doing crazy cutting edge stuff.

835
01:29:41,208 --> 01:29:42,041
Wow, that's awesome.

836
01:29:42,500 --> 01:29:45,375
That sounds really cool. So I always

837
01:29:45,375 --> 01:29:46,708
think I always think it's people like

838
01:29:46,708 --> 01:29:48,166
especially this field, if you get a

839
01:29:48,166 --> 01:29:50,125
chance to spend a year or two overseas,

840
01:29:51,041 --> 01:29:52,875
it's like the best thing, especially you

841
01:29:52,875 --> 01:29:54,500
could ever do just to have a chance to

842
01:29:54,500 --> 01:29:55,541
spend in a completely different

843
01:29:55,541 --> 01:29:57,541
environment, you really, you really learn

844
01:29:57,541 --> 01:29:58,333
a lot about yourself

845
01:29:58,333 --> 01:29:59,708
and just the whole field.

846
01:30:00,541 --> 01:30:03,250
And I think, and I think science is done

847
01:30:03,250 --> 01:30:06,500
differently everywhere you go, you know,

848
01:30:06,500 --> 01:30:07,708
and I think that's, I mean, you could say

849
01:30:07,708 --> 01:30:09,250
that for in the US as well, but even

850
01:30:09,250 --> 01:30:11,208
internationally, like, you know, we're,

851
01:30:11,208 --> 01:30:13,750
we're, I'm going to Germany in, in about

852
01:30:13,750 --> 01:30:15,958
a month from now for a few months to try

853
01:30:15,958 --> 01:30:18,291
to establish some research partners,

854
01:30:18,291 --> 01:30:21,166
partnerships to swap students to swap the

855
01:30:21,166 --> 01:30:23,250
grad students between University of

856
01:30:23,250 --> 01:30:25,333
Constance, the mocksplunk in here at

857
01:30:25,333 --> 01:30:27,833
Oregon State to get that sort of like

858
01:30:27,833 --> 01:30:29,708
different perception and, and, and, you know, I think that's, that's, that's a good thing.

859
01:30:29,708 --> 01:30:31,583
Different almost like cultural field of

860
01:30:31,583 --> 01:30:33,666
science because I think it is, you know,

861
01:30:33,666 --> 01:30:35,541
we're, we're, we're doing some of the

862
01:30:35,541 --> 01:30:37,083
similar things, but we might be asking

863
01:30:37,083 --> 01:30:38,958
questions or doing the research and are

864
01:30:38,958 --> 01:30:40,625
thinking about them in different ways.

865
01:30:41,375 --> 01:30:43,500
Throughout your, your academic career,

866
01:30:44,125 --> 01:30:47,166
you went from, from Ohio to Boston to

867
01:30:47,166 --> 01:30:50,916
like Seattle area to, you know, UC Davis,

868
01:30:50,916 --> 01:30:52,666
like in that area, and then you're going

869
01:30:52,666 --> 01:30:54,625
to, you went to Germany and now you're

870
01:30:54,625 --> 01:30:55,666
back, you know, you're in Oregon.

871
01:30:55,875 --> 01:31:01,833
How has that like, sort of like, like

872
01:31:01,833 --> 01:31:04,833
influenced you in the way you do science,

873
01:31:04,833 --> 01:31:06,666
but also, you know, you, you're talking

874
01:31:06,666 --> 01:31:08,625
about going to Germany for, you know, for

875
01:31:08,625 --> 01:31:10,250
two months. And then, you know, we were

876
01:31:10,250 --> 01:31:11,583
just discussing before you're going out

877
01:31:11,583 --> 01:31:13,125
in the field, you know, to a far away

878
01:31:13,125 --> 01:31:15,625
place in, you know, tomorrow or the day

879
01:31:15,625 --> 01:31:17,583
after how it like,

880
01:31:17,583 --> 01:31:18,875
you're used to traveling.

881
01:31:18,875 --> 01:31:22,041
Did you expect this much travel when you,

882
01:31:22,041 --> 01:31:24,166
when you first started your, your journey

883
01:31:24,166 --> 01:31:26,166
into science and then how has that

884
01:31:26,166 --> 01:31:28,375
influenced you over that, over that time

885
01:31:28,375 --> 01:31:30,250
and how has it affected your science?

886
01:31:31,416 --> 01:31:34,208
Yeah, you know, I don't think I'd

887
01:31:34,208 --> 01:31:37,916
appreciated that I would travel this

888
01:31:37,916 --> 01:31:39,666
much. I mean, there was, there was a

889
01:31:39,666 --> 01:31:43,125
period during my sort of second postdoc

890
01:31:43,125 --> 01:31:46,083
into this research, scientist position I

891
01:31:46,083 --> 01:31:47,791
had at Stanford that I was

892
01:31:47,791 --> 01:31:48,875
gone six months of the year.

893
01:31:48,875 --> 01:31:52,083
Easily six months of the year where I was

894
01:31:52,083 --> 01:31:53,291
out traveling around doing different

895
01:31:53,291 --> 01:31:56,083
things. Um, you know, they probably looks

896
01:31:56,083 --> 01:31:59,916
at it's like, Oh, that's nothing. Um, you

897
01:31:59,916 --> 01:32:03,750
know, it, it was it. It's really

898
01:32:03,750 --> 01:32:06,875
incredible to see, you know, the

899
01:32:06,875 --> 01:32:09,916
diversity of ecosystems. It's incredible

900
01:32:09,916 --> 01:32:10,875
to see the diversity of people.

901
01:32:10,916 --> 01:32:16,166
The diversity of resources that that

902
01:32:16,166 --> 01:32:18,750
folks have to do research. You know, I

903
01:32:18,750 --> 01:32:21,791
was lucky enough to, you know, to, to be

904
01:32:21,791 --> 01:32:23,208
at the tail end of the tagging in Pacific

905
01:32:23,208 --> 01:32:24,958
Plasgic projects, which was multi multi

906
01:32:24,958 --> 01:32:27,000
millions of dollars, you know, and so

907
01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:28,458
there was support for things, but then to

908
01:32:28,458 --> 01:32:30,708
go to other places to appreciate how much

909
01:32:30,708 --> 01:32:32,166
science you can do on a,

910
01:32:32,166 --> 01:32:32,875
you know, on a limited budget.

911
01:32:32,916 --> 01:32:38,041
Um, but I think the big part of what it's

912
01:32:38,041 --> 01:32:39,416
still now, yeah, I'm, I'm heading to

913
01:32:39,416 --> 01:32:41,125
Argentina tomorrow. We're going to go do

914
01:32:41,125 --> 01:32:42,833
some tagging, some flamingos. I'm hoping

915
01:32:42,833 --> 01:32:45,208
to meet some, um, you know, some

916
01:32:45,208 --> 01:32:47,375
potential collaborators to on, on some

917
01:32:47,375 --> 01:32:48,875
seven go work down in Argentina as well.

918
01:32:48,875 --> 01:32:52,208
You know, and I think the, the big part

919
01:32:52,208 --> 01:32:54,458
that the traveling has really instilled

920
01:32:54,458 --> 01:32:57,500
in me is the value of collaboration and

921
01:32:57,500 --> 01:33:00,500
the value of just getting outside of

922
01:33:00,500 --> 01:33:02,916
ourselves and outside of the space in our

923
01:33:02,916 --> 01:33:04,875
backyard and thinking, thinking bigger

924
01:33:04,875 --> 01:33:06,666
and thinking about the power

925
01:33:06,666 --> 01:33:06,875
that that brings to science.

926
01:33:06,875 --> 01:33:10,500
You know, the stuff that I do, I don't do

927
01:33:10,500 --> 01:33:13,208
anything on my own. Um, I do all of it

928
01:33:13,208 --> 01:33:16,416
with a huge team of people. Um, and you

929
01:33:16,416 --> 01:33:19,083
know, it's, that's what makes in my mind,

930
01:33:19,083 --> 01:33:20,583
the science cool. So that's, I think

931
01:33:20,583 --> 01:33:22,416
that's the great part of this, the

932
01:33:22,416 --> 01:33:23,708
traveling and things is that you meet

933
01:33:23,708 --> 01:33:26,625
those folks, you and you become invested

934
01:33:26,625 --> 01:33:28,666
in those projects and those people and

935
01:33:28,666 --> 01:33:28,875
the science behind it.

936
01:33:28,916 --> 01:33:32,500
Um, it sort of broadly instead of, you

937
01:33:32,500 --> 01:33:35,083
know, being really, uh, set to be like,

938
01:33:35,083 --> 01:33:36,291
I'm going to answer this question and

939
01:33:36,291 --> 01:33:38,125
this is the work I do. It's, you know,

940
01:33:38,125 --> 01:33:39,833
this is the questions that, that, that

941
01:33:39,833 --> 01:33:41,333
we're asking. And these are the, you

942
01:33:41,333 --> 01:33:41,875
know, this is the work that we do.

943
01:33:42,875 --> 01:33:45,750
Now, speaking of team and the real

944
01:33:45,750 --> 01:33:48,583
winners in this type of lifestyle, you

945
01:33:48,583 --> 01:33:51,458
have two kids, young kids, I think it

946
01:33:51,458 --> 01:33:53,708
was, it was a nine and 11. Now they get

947
01:33:53,708 --> 01:33:55,916
to travel all over the world. You know,

948
01:33:55,916 --> 01:33:57,875
they get to pull that a school and be

949
01:33:57,875 --> 01:33:59,333
like, Hey, we're going to Argentina for a

950
01:33:59,333 --> 01:33:59,875
month. Then we're going to go to Germany for two months.

951
01:33:59,875 --> 01:34:04,541
Uh, for them, that must be pretty cool.

952
01:34:04,958 --> 01:34:07,208
How do they feel, you know, about the

953
01:34:07,208 --> 01:34:10,250
work that you do and then the travel, uh,

954
01:34:10,250 --> 01:34:12,625
and also like for you, for both you and

955
01:34:12,625 --> 01:34:15,250
your wife, how, how much of a challenge

956
01:34:15,250 --> 01:34:18,500
is that for you guys to travel with your

957
01:34:18,500 --> 01:34:20,875
kids and, and, you know, for work, um, and to, you know, completely different countries.

958
01:34:21,875 --> 01:34:25,208
Like it's, it's gotta be, there's gotta

959
01:34:25,208 --> 01:34:27,625
be some challenges in there, but also

960
01:34:27,625 --> 01:34:30,041
completely rewarding at the same time.

961
01:34:30,666 --> 01:34:32,291
Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, there's a,

962
01:34:32,291 --> 01:34:34,500
there's a, there's a ton to unpack in,

963
01:34:34,500 --> 01:34:37,333
um, in that because it is, it is double

964
01:34:37,333 --> 01:34:41,291
edged short, right? The, when I was, uh,

965
01:34:41,291 --> 01:34:43,500
my wife had, had a faculty position at

966
01:34:43,500 --> 01:34:44,750
Eastern Michigan University.

967
01:34:45,208 --> 01:34:47,416
Uh, and at the same time, I was still the

968
01:34:47,416 --> 01:34:47,875
research scientist at Stanford. So that's in California.

969
01:34:47,916 --> 01:34:53,833
And I was basically commuting in, in, in

970
01:34:53,833 --> 01:34:55,458
the meantime, we were building our house,

971
01:34:55,666 --> 01:34:59,000
our, like by hand ourselves, um, at the

972
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:02,333
same time and, uh, you know, glutton.

973
01:35:02,333 --> 01:35:04,458
Just add that on. Just, just add a little

974
01:35:04,458 --> 01:35:06,375
bit. And we had two small children. We

975
01:35:06,375 --> 01:35:08,000
were living out of it. We had 12 foot

976
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:08,875
camper in the backyard while we built a house with a one year old and a three year old.

977
01:35:08,916 --> 01:35:15,625
But anyway, I digress. So I was, I was

978
01:35:15,625 --> 01:35:18,458
doing actually, um, a three month stint

979
01:35:18,458 --> 01:35:20,958
stint out in California. We're, we're

980
01:35:20,958 --> 01:35:24,250
filming a documentary and we had some bad

981
01:35:24,250 --> 01:35:26,875
weather. So I flew back home to Michigan and I was putting my son to bed. He was three years old at the time.

982
01:35:26,916 --> 01:35:32,083
And he reached up and he gave me a hug

983
01:35:32,083 --> 01:35:33,416
and he said, dad, I love it when you come

984
01:35:33,416 --> 01:35:36,458
visit us. And I was like, Oh my God.

985
01:35:36,875 --> 01:35:40,041
Like, like kids, they, they can like cut

986
01:35:40,041 --> 01:35:41,875
to the bone, like so fast. And that was the moment I was like, you know what? This is this lifestyle.

987
01:35:41,916 --> 01:35:48,083
I love it. And my wife is she's a field

988
01:35:48,083 --> 01:35:49,625
scientist, field biologist. Well, she

989
01:35:49,625 --> 01:35:51,458
knows she understands it, right? But it's

990
01:35:51,458 --> 01:35:53,541
like, it's not feasible anymore. You just

991
01:35:53,541 --> 01:35:56,708
like, you can't do that. And so that

992
01:35:56,708 --> 01:35:58,416
actually sort of parlayed well into this

993
01:35:58,416 --> 01:36:01,000
position that we both have here at Oregon

994
01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:03,541
state. But we still, I mean, we're still

995
01:36:03,541 --> 01:36:04,875
feel about field biologist. The kids go with us when they can. But there's oftentimes where one of us is flying in from somewhere. Luckily, we're not going to be able to do that.

996
01:36:04,916 --> 01:36:08,708
But there's often times where one of us

997
01:36:08,708 --> 01:36:12,166
is flying in from somewhere. Luckily, my

998
01:36:12,166 --> 01:36:14,125
wife's mom lives right next to the

999
01:36:14,125 --> 01:36:15,916
airport in Portland. So we'll drop one of

1000
01:36:15,916 --> 01:36:17,625
us will drop the kids off, catch a

1001
01:36:17,625 --> 01:36:19,125
flight, the other one flies in, we'll go

1002
01:36:19,125 --> 01:36:20,791
and pick the kids up and take them home.

1003
01:36:20,791 --> 01:36:22,250
You know, it's like there's this, this

1004
01:36:22,250 --> 01:36:24,916
constant sort of, you know, it's a, it's

1005
01:36:24,916 --> 01:36:26,333
a puzzle that we try to put

1006
01:36:26,333 --> 01:36:28,333
together. And it redefines

1007
01:36:29,875 --> 01:36:34,333
Yeah, but it's, you know, it takes, it

1008
01:36:34,333 --> 01:36:37,041
takes, you know, a lot of communication.

1009
01:36:38,208 --> 01:36:39,708
And it takes a lot of flexibility. And

1010
01:36:39,708 --> 01:36:42,041
the kids are incredible, incredible

1011
01:36:42,041 --> 01:36:45,291
travelers. But there's also, you know,

1012
01:36:45,458 --> 01:36:46,666
there's a cost to it for

1013
01:36:46,666 --> 01:36:47,875
sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

1014
01:36:47,916 --> 01:36:51,708
Yeah, yeah. So, so you're going to, so I

1015
01:36:51,708 --> 01:36:53,541
know we were talking to you before the

1016
01:36:53,541 --> 01:36:54,458
show, like you were talking about

1017
01:36:54,458 --> 01:36:56,375
flamingos. Is this your wife's project

1018
01:36:56,375 --> 01:36:58,000
you're going and work with her?

1019
01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:00,458
Yeah, yeah. So we're going to, we're on

1020
01:37:00,458 --> 01:37:02,291
sabbatical right now. So thankfully, we

1021
01:37:02,291 --> 01:37:03,541
both start at the same time. So we have

1022
01:37:03,541 --> 01:37:05,750
the sabbatical lined up. And so we're

1023
01:37:05,750 --> 01:37:08,333
doing a little swapsies. So we'll do a

1024
01:37:08,333 --> 01:37:10,083
couple months or do a month in Argentina

1025
01:37:10,083 --> 01:37:12,000
for her work in a couple

1026
01:37:12,000 --> 01:37:13,875
months in Ireland for mine.

1027
01:37:13,875 --> 01:37:17,125
But the, the Argentina work is she is so

1028
01:37:17,125 --> 01:37:20,291
she studies, you know, stress in

1029
01:37:20,291 --> 01:37:22,791
movements and trying to understand how

1030
01:37:22,791 --> 01:37:26,875
and why nomadic bird species go and how

1031
01:37:26,875 --> 01:37:28,000
they know when to go and

1032
01:37:28,000 --> 01:37:28,875
how they know where to go.

1033
01:37:28,916 --> 01:37:30,666
So she studies this small Finch called

1034
01:37:30,666 --> 01:37:33,041
the Red Cross bill that like they'll feed

1035
01:37:33,041 --> 01:37:35,333
on cones in here in the Pacific

1036
01:37:35,333 --> 01:37:37,500
Northwest. And then next year, there'll

1037
01:37:37,500 --> 01:37:40,500
be no cones. And all of them will be in

1038
01:37:40,500 --> 01:37:42,250
Nova Scotia, all the birds will show up

1039
01:37:42,250 --> 01:37:43,958
over there. And somehow they have to

1040
01:37:43,958 --> 01:37:44,666
figure it out. They don't

1041
01:37:44,666 --> 01:37:45,875
have this predictable cycle.

1042
01:37:45,916 --> 01:37:47,541
Like we think of with sharks, you know,

1043
01:37:47,541 --> 01:37:49,041
having a white shark going out to the

1044
01:37:49,041 --> 01:37:51,458
white shark cafe and back boom. But these

1045
01:37:51,458 --> 01:37:53,166
these birds don't and flamingos are the

1046
01:37:53,166 --> 01:37:55,333
same way. But they have, they feed in

1047
01:37:55,333 --> 01:37:57,333
these high altitude, you know, somewhere

1048
01:37:57,333 --> 01:38:00,000
between 10 and 15,000 feet, highly

1049
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:02,833
sailing lakes with, you

1050
01:38:02,833 --> 01:38:03,875
know, their filter feeders.

1051
01:38:04,208 --> 01:38:06,250
And so they do the same type of thing

1052
01:38:06,250 --> 01:38:08,958
where they either exhaust a resource or

1053
01:38:08,958 --> 01:38:10,250
something happens and they, and they

1054
01:38:10,250 --> 01:38:11,708
move, but they have to figure out when to

1055
01:38:11,708 --> 01:38:13,416
move and they have to figure out where to

1056
01:38:13,416 --> 01:38:15,041
go and where the next resource is.

1057
01:38:15,833 --> 01:38:17,583
And so we're going to be putting a series

1058
01:38:17,583 --> 01:38:21,291
of heart rate tags on them that'll track

1059
01:38:21,291 --> 01:38:23,333
their movements as well as their sort of

1060
01:38:23,333 --> 01:38:25,125
their energetic expenditure to understand

1061
01:38:25,125 --> 01:38:27,666
where the decision making comes in. Like,

1062
01:38:27,666 --> 01:38:29,666
how do you decide when to leave?

1063
01:38:31,541 --> 01:38:31,875
Wow, that's crazy.

1064
01:38:31,916 --> 01:38:34,375
That's crazy. Yeah. So you don't have any

1065
01:38:34,375 --> 01:38:36,625
really shark projects going on yet in

1066
01:38:36,625 --> 01:38:38,708
Argentina, you're hoping not yet. All the

1067
01:38:38,708 --> 01:38:39,958
building. We're trying, you know, I'm

1068
01:38:39,958 --> 01:38:41,916
always trying. See, I'm giving a talk

1069
01:38:41,916 --> 01:38:43,833
down there. Hopefully meet some some

1070
01:38:43,833 --> 01:38:46,583
folks that that do started up some seven

1071
01:38:46,583 --> 01:38:49,000
gill projects down there and, and maybe

1072
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:50,666
just do some, you know, some information

1073
01:38:50,666 --> 01:38:52,708
sharing some technique sharing and and

1074
01:38:52,708 --> 01:38:54,375
think about some of the broader questions

1075
01:38:54,375 --> 01:38:54,875
that maybe we can ask.

1076
01:38:54,875 --> 01:38:57,166
But that's like a really interesting

1077
01:38:57,166 --> 01:38:59,375
opportunity because it may be something

1078
01:38:59,375 --> 01:39:00,916
that you may never have thought of

1079
01:39:00,916 --> 01:39:02,916
before, but because you're there, you're

1080
01:39:02,916 --> 01:39:04,791
like, well, how do I make the most of

1081
01:39:04,791 --> 01:39:07,083
this? You know, this travel, you know,

1082
01:39:07,083 --> 01:39:08,041
let's let's, you know, you're on

1083
01:39:08,041 --> 01:39:10,041
sabbatical, you can make collaborations,

1084
01:39:10,291 --> 01:39:12,500
who knows what discoveries they've made

1085
01:39:12,500 --> 01:39:14,250
down there, what discoveries you can make

1086
01:39:14,250 --> 01:39:16,250
in the future as collaborators compare,

1087
01:39:16,500 --> 01:39:16,875
you know, in different areas and stuff.

1088
01:39:16,875 --> 01:39:19,583
I think that's really, it's kind of cool

1089
01:39:19,583 --> 01:39:21,291
that you do that, not just like, okay,

1090
01:39:21,291 --> 01:39:22,750
like I'm going here, but I'm just gonna,

1091
01:39:23,083 --> 01:39:24,541
you know, just kind of

1092
01:39:24,541 --> 01:39:25,500
chill out and stuff, right?

1093
01:39:25,833 --> 01:39:28,625
Yeah, sort of to a detriment. If my wife

1094
01:39:28,625 --> 01:39:30,083
was here next to me, she'd be shaking her

1095
01:39:30,083 --> 01:39:32,708
head because last week we were, we were

1096
01:39:32,708 --> 01:39:36,833
down in Mexico for done in Todo Santos

1097
01:39:36,833 --> 01:39:39,583
near La Paz for my brother's 50th

1098
01:39:39,583 --> 01:39:42,625
birthday. And in the middle of that, I

1099
01:39:42,625 --> 01:39:44,583
ran across the La Paz where she, she and

1100
01:39:44,583 --> 01:39:45,875
I used to do some workout of actually,

1101
01:39:45,916 --> 01:39:49,875
and met with Mauricio Hoyos and James

1102
01:39:49,875 --> 01:39:53,375
Ketchum at Pelagios to do a quick talk so

1103
01:39:53,375 --> 01:39:55,041
that I could spend a little time chatting

1104
01:39:55,041 --> 01:39:57,416
and catching up with them, you know, so,

1105
01:39:58,375 --> 01:39:59,583
I still have a lot of, you know,

1106
01:39:59,583 --> 01:40:02,000
opportunistic. Yes, but I love the, like

1107
01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:03,375
the fact, because, you know, I otherwise

1108
01:40:03,375 --> 01:40:04,708
wouldn't have gotten to see James and I

1109
01:40:04,708 --> 01:40:06,500
were in grad school at UC Davis and

1110
01:40:06,500 --> 01:40:08,125
Mauricio was, we've all been part of

1111
01:40:08,125 --> 01:40:09,916
these projects. So it's like, you know,

1112
01:40:10,375 --> 01:40:12,250
again, these collaborations, like, I love

1113
01:40:12,250 --> 01:40:14,166
the people that I work with as well as

1114
01:40:14,166 --> 01:40:15,875
the species that we want. So it's always a pleasure to be here.

1115
01:40:15,875 --> 01:40:18,500
It's always a treat to get to see people.

1116
01:40:18,875 --> 01:40:21,666
Yeah. I think it's one of the cool side

1117
01:40:21,666 --> 01:40:23,166
things with the whole being in this field

1118
01:40:23,166 --> 01:40:24,500
is you get to know people in all these

1119
01:40:24,500 --> 01:40:25,791
different parts of the

1120
01:40:25,791 --> 01:40:26,625
world and everything.

1121
01:40:27,416 --> 01:40:28,958
And you just kind of get to do, you just

1122
01:40:28,958 --> 01:40:31,041
get, it's just amazing to get these

1123
01:40:31,041 --> 01:40:32,416
collaborations also in all these

1124
01:40:32,416 --> 01:40:35,708
different countries as well. So, so yeah,

1125
01:40:35,708 --> 01:40:37,375
that's great. I think that's, that's like

1126
01:40:37,375 --> 01:40:38,833
a, to me, it's like a kind of a side

1127
01:40:38,833 --> 01:40:39,833
benefit. You don't even really think

1128
01:40:39,833 --> 01:40:41,083
about when you start off because you're

1129
01:40:41,083 --> 01:40:42,000
thinking, I'm going to go

1130
01:40:42,000 --> 01:40:42,875
study sharks or birds or whatever.

1131
01:40:42,875 --> 01:40:44,666
And you get all these, you meet some

1132
01:40:44,666 --> 01:40:45,791
great people in all these different,

1133
01:40:45,791 --> 01:40:49,416
different, different countries. Yeah. So,

1134
01:40:49,416 --> 01:40:51,833
and then you're going to Germany, the

1135
01:40:51,833 --> 01:40:52,916
same type of thing, develop some

1136
01:40:52,916 --> 01:40:54,208
collaborations there and.

1137
01:40:54,958 --> 01:40:57,416
Yeah. Yeah. So we, we're going back to

1138
01:40:57,416 --> 01:40:59,500
the, to the Max Planck where we worked

1139
01:40:59,500 --> 01:41:02,208
before and we're, we're trying to build

1140
01:41:02,208 --> 01:41:04,083
a, an animal behavior

1141
01:41:04,083 --> 01:41:05,708
sort of research exchange.

1142
01:41:05,916 --> 01:41:09,583
And to, to give students again, going

1143
01:41:09,583 --> 01:41:11,375
back to that sort of international flare,

1144
01:41:11,375 --> 01:41:14,333
just get some experience thinking and

1145
01:41:14,333 --> 01:41:15,833
doing science somewhere else.

1146
01:41:16,250 --> 01:41:19,416
And also working with, you know, maybe

1147
01:41:19,416 --> 01:41:21,791
PIs that are outside of your wheelhouse.

1148
01:41:21,791 --> 01:41:23,708
So, you know, instead of, you know,

1149
01:41:23,708 --> 01:41:27,250
meeting a scientist at a, at a sharks

1150
01:41:27,250 --> 01:41:29,750
international conference, you go to this,

1151
01:41:29,750 --> 01:41:31,208
you know, international exchange and you

1152
01:41:31,208 --> 01:41:33,625
meet somebody who does, you know, does

1153
01:41:33,625 --> 01:41:34,875
koala research, but they're looking at, you know,

1154
01:41:34,916 --> 01:41:39,000
feeding more files, you're something like

1155
01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:40,166
that. That's totally something you

1156
01:41:40,166 --> 01:41:42,000
wouldn't have normally done, but you get

1157
01:41:42,000 --> 01:41:43,666
that experience. And then we'll be

1158
01:41:43,666 --> 01:41:45,833
working with Martin Wieckowski again in

1159
01:41:45,833 --> 01:41:49,208
the Icarus project, which is the, it's an

1160
01:41:49,208 --> 01:41:49,875
animal focused satellite system.

1161
01:41:49,916 --> 01:41:54,458
So the idea is that, you know, the, what

1162
01:41:54,458 --> 01:41:58,041
we have now, these, these Argos is high

1163
01:41:58,041 --> 01:42:00,416
in the, you know, far away from, from the

1164
01:42:00,416 --> 01:42:01,791
earth. And so it takes a lot of energy to

1165
01:42:01,791 --> 01:42:04,208
transfer the signals and stuff like that.

1166
01:42:04,208 --> 01:42:05,916
But if we do a lower orbiting satellite

1167
01:42:05,916 --> 01:42:09,000
system, we can make smaller tags, put

1168
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:09,875
them on smaller animals,

1169
01:42:09,875 --> 01:42:11,083
last longer, things like that.

1170
01:42:11,083 --> 01:42:12,291
So that's something that we're going to

1171
01:42:12,291 --> 01:42:15,500
be sort of helping to think about and

1172
01:42:15,500 --> 01:42:16,208
develop the marine

1173
01:42:16,208 --> 01:42:16,875
component of that, of that system.

1174
01:42:16,916 --> 01:42:21,416
How excited is Alex to go

1175
01:42:21,416 --> 01:42:23,208
to Germany for however long?

1176
01:42:25,333 --> 01:42:25,708
So sorry.

1177
01:42:26,500 --> 01:42:29,250
How excited is Alex to go to Germany for

1178
01:42:29,250 --> 01:42:30,708
that, for that exchange?

1179
01:42:31,125 --> 01:42:32,333
Is she the first one to go?

1180
01:42:32,916 --> 01:42:36,250
Oh yeah. I, I, uh, she would go in a

1181
01:42:36,250 --> 01:42:41,208
heartbeat. Um, I think, uh, although I

1182
01:42:41,208 --> 01:42:44,875
think her, her, her husband might not let her, might, might not be, so I'm not sure.

1183
01:42:44,916 --> 01:42:47,916
Might not be such a fan of her being on

1184
01:42:47,916 --> 01:42:50,041
for any more months at a time with field

1185
01:42:50,041 --> 01:42:51,291
research. That is that, you know, that is

1186
01:42:51,291 --> 01:42:52,833
the key with all these projects. Is that

1187
01:42:52,833 --> 01:42:55,291
like, you know, it's, at some point you

1188
01:42:55,291 --> 01:42:56,333
actually do need to

1189
01:42:56,333 --> 01:42:58,375
spend some time at home.

1190
01:43:06,916 --> 01:43:11,041
It is so cool to be able to go and, you

1191
01:43:11,041 --> 01:43:12,833
know, have these opportunities. It really

1192
01:43:12,833 --> 01:43:15,958
does. It does. It increases the bar of

1193
01:43:15,958 --> 01:43:17,041
your science, you know, the, your

1194
01:43:17,041 --> 01:43:18,083
experience and the things

1195
01:43:18,083 --> 01:43:19,833
that you get to see and try.

1196
01:43:20,500 --> 01:43:22,208
You guys ultimate. You also got a project

1197
01:43:22,208 --> 01:43:23,750
you had going on in Ireland on the

1198
01:43:23,750 --> 01:43:26,666
basking sharks for a while. Yeah. Yeah.

1199
01:43:27,041 --> 01:43:28,708
So that's a, this, the basking shark

1200
01:43:28,708 --> 01:43:32,166
project is, um, you know, I, I've been a,

1201
01:43:32,166 --> 01:43:34,500
I think sort of like pigeonholed into

1202
01:43:34,500 --> 01:43:35,875
the, uh, the white shark field for a while.

1203
01:43:35,916 --> 01:43:36,333
I mean, I've been in the white shark

1204
01:43:36,333 --> 01:43:38,791
field for, for the past 15 years that

1205
01:43:38,791 --> 01:43:39,958
I've been sitting in white sharks, but

1206
01:43:39,958 --> 01:43:42,166
I'm starting to transition my, my

1207
01:43:42,166 --> 01:43:44,500
appreciation in, in, in sort of shark

1208
01:43:44,500 --> 01:43:46,750
favoritism, uh, over to basking sharks

1209
01:43:46,750 --> 01:43:49,541
because they're such a cool and weird

1210
01:43:49,541 --> 01:43:52,166
sort of shark species that, you know,

1211
01:43:52,166 --> 01:43:53,041
that don't kind of fit into

1212
01:43:53,041 --> 01:43:54,083
the mold of everything else.

1213
01:43:54,875 --> 01:43:55,000
Yeah. So that's a, that's a great, that's
a great, that's a great place in the, in

1214
01:43:55,000 --> 01:43:55,750
the world. It's been over there for the

1215
01:43:55,750 --> 01:43:57,750
past couple of years. Um, that's a

1216
01:43:57,750 --> 01:43:59,791
project that, that, yeah, Alex Macg it

1217
01:43:59,791 --> 01:44:03,125
is, is really spearheaded, um, for almost

1218
01:44:03,125 --> 01:44:05,833
eight years or nine years now. So it's a,

1219
01:44:05,833 --> 01:44:08,208
it's a, it's a great, it's a great place.

1220
01:44:08,208 --> 01:44:09,750
I mean, beautiful place in such a

1221
01:44:09,750 --> 01:44:12,083
incredible, incredible species to work

1222
01:44:12,083 --> 01:44:14,375
with. Yeah. How about, how about closer

1223
01:44:14,375 --> 01:44:15,416
to home? How about the stuff you're

1224
01:44:15,416 --> 01:44:16,375
doing? And now would you talk a little

1225
01:44:16,375 --> 01:44:17,000
bit about the stuff

1226
01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:18,041
you're doing here in Oregon?

1227
01:44:19,875 --> 01:44:21,208
I'd love to, that, you know, the cool

1228
01:44:21,208 --> 01:44:23,416
thing about starting this position here

1229
01:44:23,416 --> 01:44:27,458
was that, um, it felt to me like a, like

1230
01:44:27,458 --> 01:44:30,458
a little bit of, uh, uh, I don't know,

1231
01:44:30,458 --> 01:44:32,000
black box or something like that, you

1232
01:44:32,000 --> 01:44:33,791
know, the spot that there hadn't been as

1233
01:44:33,791 --> 01:44:36,333
much focus on, you know, you go to

1234
01:44:36,333 --> 01:44:37,791
central California, you go to southern

1235
01:44:37,791 --> 01:44:39,583
California, there's, you know, there's

1236
01:44:39,583 --> 01:44:41,541
this huge body of literature on all the

1237
01:44:41,541 --> 01:44:43,791
species and how, how sharks interact into

1238
01:44:43,791 --> 01:44:44,833
these ecosystems and

1239
01:44:44,833 --> 01:44:45,708
the role that they play.

1240
01:44:46,250 --> 01:44:48,666
Um, you know, and I think coming to the

1241
01:44:48,666 --> 01:44:51,291
Pacific Northwest for me was, was a

1242
01:44:51,291 --> 01:44:52,666
little bit different as saying like, all

1243
01:44:52,666 --> 01:44:55,500
right, there isn't, there isn't a huge

1244
01:44:55,500 --> 01:44:56,791
shark research present

1245
01:44:56,791 --> 01:44:58,333
here, sorry, presence here.

1246
01:44:58,875 --> 01:45:00,416
Um, you know, there's been folks that,

1247
01:45:00,416 --> 01:45:01,958
you know, Dave, you, you and others have

1248
01:45:01,958 --> 01:45:03,291
done work from, you know, central

1249
01:45:03,291 --> 01:45:05,166
California up, but I think when we look

1250
01:45:05,166 --> 01:45:07,750
at, at it relatively to, to the other

1251
01:45:07,750 --> 01:45:09,875
places, it just doesn't have that focus.

1252
01:45:09,875 --> 01:45:13,291
And so, you know, when I got here, I had

1253
01:45:13,291 --> 01:45:15,708
these grand plans of, you know, all these

1254
01:45:15,708 --> 01:45:19,250
projects and I think what I've been

1255
01:45:19,250 --> 01:45:21,500
humbled by is one that how difficult it

1256
01:45:21,500 --> 01:45:22,291
is to get on the ocean

1257
01:45:22,291 --> 01:45:22,875
in Oregon and Washington.

1258
01:45:22,916 --> 01:45:28,333
Um, and two, how hard it is to, to start

1259
01:45:28,333 --> 01:45:30,666
something that, that has been done. And

1260
01:45:30,666 --> 01:45:32,666
I'm Dave, I'm sure you could speak weeks

1261
01:45:32,666 --> 01:45:34,125
about this, but the idea of going

1262
01:45:34,125 --> 01:45:36,791
somewhere where somebody hasn't developed

1263
01:45:36,791 --> 01:45:40,166
the techniques or the seasonality or the,

1264
01:45:40,166 --> 01:45:42,125
the, the locations or any of

1265
01:45:42,125 --> 01:45:42,875
that stuff to study a species.

1266
01:45:42,875 --> 01:45:45,250
And you're just like crap, I've got to,

1267
01:45:45,250 --> 01:45:46,916
I've got to figure out when the animals

1268
01:45:46,916 --> 01:45:49,916
are even here in order to start to study

1269
01:45:49,916 --> 01:45:52,458
them. And so it's like that, that it's,

1270
01:45:52,458 --> 01:45:54,041
it's been such a weird, you know, coming

1271
01:45:54,041 --> 01:45:55,416
from California where it's like, it's

1272
01:45:55,416 --> 01:45:57,500
established, you know, but coming into

1273
01:45:57,500 --> 01:45:58,666
here where it's, it's

1274
01:45:58,666 --> 01:45:59,791
very, very different.

1275
01:46:00,291 --> 01:46:01,791
Well, I can tell you when I started on my

1276
01:46:01,791 --> 01:46:03,250
masters back in the early eighties, it

1277
01:46:03,250 --> 01:46:04,791
was the same thing. They were just like,

1278
01:46:05,083 --> 01:46:06,375
yeah, I started working at seven gills as

1279
01:46:06,375 --> 01:46:07,583
you know, and it was just like, well,

1280
01:46:07,583 --> 01:46:09,458
they're out there. I had like, nobody

1281
01:46:09,458 --> 01:46:10,458
could tell me like other

1282
01:46:10,458 --> 01:46:11,750
than they would see them.

1283
01:46:12,375 --> 01:46:14,041
Yeah. Nobody. Nobody. We see them all the

1284
01:46:14,041 --> 01:46:18,166
time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're asking.

1285
01:46:18,166 --> 01:46:20,166
It's like, yeah. Well, my buddy saw one,

1286
01:46:20,166 --> 01:46:22,833
you know, in September of, you know,

1287
01:46:23,916 --> 01:46:26,916
1984. And you're like, so not all the

1288
01:46:26,916 --> 01:46:29,791
time. Yeah. Yeah. I spent, I spent a

1289
01:46:29,791 --> 01:46:31,291
year, a good year plus.

1290
01:46:31,875 --> 01:46:33,166
Yeah. And this is a master's degree too,

1291
01:46:33,583 --> 01:46:35,958
just to figure out how to get those damn

1292
01:46:35,958 --> 01:46:38,500
things and in San Francisco and Humboldt

1293
01:46:38,500 --> 01:46:40,166
Bay, once I figured it out, but it was

1294
01:46:40,166 --> 01:46:43,083
like a year of just not, there was no, I

1295
01:46:43,083 --> 01:46:44,708
always tell there's no roadmap. There was

1296
01:46:44,708 --> 01:46:46,583
nobody could say, oh, it was like, you

1297
01:46:46,583 --> 01:46:47,791
know, yeah, we catch them out here.

1298
01:46:47,875 --> 01:46:50,250
But that was it. There was no like, you

1299
01:46:50,250 --> 01:46:51,500
know, we see them like, yeah, we saw one

1300
01:46:51,500 --> 01:46:53,041
a few years ago, whatever, you know, it's

1301
01:46:53,041 --> 01:46:55,958
like, so, so yeah. So I could totally

1302
01:46:55,958 --> 01:46:57,583
appreciate what you and your lab are

1303
01:46:57,583 --> 01:46:59,750
doing on the Oregon coast. And the thing

1304
01:46:59,750 --> 01:47:01,875
is Oregon, at least in Washington, people

1305
01:47:01,875 --> 01:47:02,958
would work in Puget Sound

1306
01:47:02,958 --> 01:47:03,875
and do some research there.

1307
01:47:03,916 --> 01:47:06,708
But Oregon, there's just, there's no real

1308
01:47:06,708 --> 01:47:10,000
bays, harbors, estuaries where people

1309
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:11,541
could do some stuff. And it's just,

1310
01:47:11,541 --> 01:47:13,166
there's just been a just literally, like

1311
01:47:13,166 --> 01:47:14,791
you said, a black hole for Oregon. So

1312
01:47:14,791 --> 01:47:16,875
it's kind of great. You guys are kind of

1313
01:47:16,875 --> 01:47:19,250
filling in a big unknown there.

1314
01:47:19,500 --> 01:47:21,208
Yeah. I'm not familiar with, with the

1315
01:47:21,208 --> 01:47:22,791
coastline there. You mentioned that is it

1316
01:47:22,791 --> 01:47:24,041
just like a straightaway, you just got

1317
01:47:24,041 --> 01:47:26,500
to, it just drops off and into the deep.

1318
01:47:26,500 --> 01:47:26,875
Is that, is that what it is?

1319
01:47:26,916 --> 01:47:29,541
Well, it's, it's kind of a mix. And so we

1320
01:47:29,541 --> 01:47:32,583
do have, you know, we have some places

1321
01:47:32,583 --> 01:47:35,000
with pretty long continental shelf, other

1322
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:36,875
places near sort of Port Overton, the

1323
01:47:36,875 --> 01:47:39,458
southern part of the state have a really

1324
01:47:39,458 --> 01:47:45,875
sort of short continental shelf.

1325
01:47:45,916 --> 01:47:50,791
But I mean, the, the, the real like

1326
01:47:50,791 --> 01:47:52,541
tricky part of it is like, there's no

1327
01:47:52,541 --> 01:47:55,416
big, you know, as they've said, no big

1328
01:47:55,416 --> 01:47:58,791
bays that stuff goes into like every,

1329
01:47:59,375 --> 01:48:02,291
every except for one access to the ocean

1330
01:48:02,291 --> 01:48:04,083
is a river mouth. There's one that is the

1331
01:48:04,083 --> 01:48:07,125
smallest, the smallest harbor in America,

1332
01:48:07,625 --> 01:48:09,416
which is like the size of a football

1333
01:48:09,416 --> 01:48:10,375
field is the only one

1334
01:48:10,375 --> 01:48:11,875
that is not a natural river.

1335
01:48:11,916 --> 01:48:14,625
And so, you know, it's, you don't have

1336
01:48:14,625 --> 01:48:18,125
this, this big Monterey Bay or San

1337
01:48:18,125 --> 01:48:20,000
Francisco Bay. That is this, you know,

1338
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:23,708
this giant waterway that, that offers

1339
01:48:23,708 --> 01:48:26,750
animals sort of a big open accessible

1340
01:48:26,750 --> 01:48:28,708
habitat. And same for us, you know,

1341
01:48:28,916 --> 01:48:29,916
there, there aren't these big

1342
01:48:29,916 --> 01:48:31,875
bays that you can go work in.

1343
01:48:31,916 --> 01:48:34,500
You know, you've got to get out in the

1344
01:48:34,500 --> 01:48:36,666
ocean to get into the animals. I mean, I

1345
01:48:36,666 --> 01:48:39,375
went to Humboldt state for my undergrad

1346
01:48:39,375 --> 01:48:41,625
and I did my masters up there in the bay,

1347
01:48:41,625 --> 01:48:43,791
but you go outside the bay there. It's,

1348
01:48:43,791 --> 01:48:47,000
it's treacherous. Unless you really are

1349
01:48:47,000 --> 01:48:49,458
set up and you're there to pick your days

1350
01:48:49,458 --> 01:48:50,875
and Oregon just gets worse.

1351
01:48:51,083 --> 01:48:51,458
Worst.

1352
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:52,500
You go over here.

1353
01:48:52,750 --> 01:48:54,583
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not uncommon for

1354
01:48:54,583 --> 01:48:56,833
us to have 40 foot, 40 plus foot waves.

1355
01:48:57,125 --> 01:48:58,708
And, you know, you, you think about, all

1356
01:48:58,708 --> 01:49:01,250
right, I'll go out this river mouth and I

1357
01:49:01,250 --> 01:49:03,500
really, my first year here was very, very

1358
01:49:03,500 --> 01:49:05,750
eye opening is that because you've got a

1359
01:49:05,750 --> 01:49:07,250
river mouth, you've got whatever the

1360
01:49:07,250 --> 01:49:08,500
river, the rain flow is.

1361
01:49:08,916 --> 01:49:10,500
And then you've got your tide in your

1362
01:49:10,500 --> 01:49:11,750
waves and your wind, all that stuff

1363
01:49:11,750 --> 01:49:15,458
meeting at the bar. And you've got a, for

1364
01:49:15,458 --> 01:49:17,041
those of you, not all, not that kind of

1365
01:49:17,041 --> 01:49:18,333
bar. It's the bar at the end

1366
01:49:18,333 --> 01:49:20,166
of a, at the end of a river.

1367
01:49:20,875 --> 01:49:22,708
Yeah. But yeah, you know, it's, you have

1368
01:49:22,708 --> 01:49:24,916
all that way of action there. And so, you

1369
01:49:24,916 --> 01:49:26,375
know, getting in and getting out is

1370
01:49:26,375 --> 01:49:28,041
incredibly dangerous. That's like the

1371
01:49:28,041 --> 01:49:30,250
dangerous, you know, place that you can

1372
01:49:30,250 --> 01:49:32,166
be on the ocean and you

1373
01:49:32,166 --> 01:49:32,875
might get out and it's fine.

1374
01:49:32,875 --> 01:49:34,875
And a couple hours later, the tide

1375
01:49:34,875 --> 01:49:37,250
switches and you can't get back in and

1376
01:49:37,250 --> 01:49:38,708
the Coast Guard won't let you back in. So

1377
01:49:38,708 --> 01:49:40,416
you're stuck at sea until it comes down,

1378
01:49:40,708 --> 01:49:43,541
like, you know, days. So it's a pretty,

1379
01:49:43,541 --> 01:49:44,375
it's a pretty crazy

1380
01:49:44,375 --> 01:49:46,041
environment to be able to work in.

1381
01:49:46,583 --> 01:49:49,916
Yeah. Definitely. I can appreciate that.

1382
01:49:50,291 --> 01:49:51,458
And that's why I think Oregon's had

1383
01:49:51,458 --> 01:49:53,208
always been had such a, been sort of a

1384
01:49:53,208 --> 01:49:56,416
black box for what's up there. Because

1385
01:49:56,416 --> 01:49:59,000
you just, it's, you know, it's not easy

1386
01:49:59,000 --> 01:49:59,875
to, it's not easy to work there.

1387
01:49:59,875 --> 01:50:01,750
And you only got so many days of the

1388
01:50:01,750 --> 01:50:04,000
year, you can really get out to do

1389
01:50:04,000 --> 01:50:06,708
anything to find stuff. But you got, you

1390
01:50:06,708 --> 01:50:08,541
do, you have managed to get, I know some

1391
01:50:08,541 --> 01:50:10,833
salmon sharks and seven gill sharks. And

1392
01:50:10,833 --> 01:50:11,958
have you gotten much in the

1393
01:50:11,958 --> 01:50:13,291
way of white sharks up there?

1394
01:50:13,958 --> 01:50:15,958
We've been trying in the, the, the white

1395
01:50:15,958 --> 01:50:17,500
sharks, unfortunately, is one of those.

1396
01:50:17,958 --> 01:50:19,750
One of the stories is that they, you

1397
01:50:19,750 --> 01:50:21,958
know, there isn't a real clear

1398
01:50:21,958 --> 01:50:23,375
aggregation site like you

1399
01:50:23,375 --> 01:50:23,875
have in central California.

1400
01:50:23,875 --> 01:50:26,041
You know, you've got on in the way of

1401
01:50:26,041 --> 01:50:27,375
where the Farallon islands or it's most

1402
01:50:27,375 --> 01:50:29,375
point where the, the, the sharks seem to

1403
01:50:29,375 --> 01:50:31,625
aggregate. And we just don't, or at least

1404
01:50:31,625 --> 01:50:34,125
we haven't found that in, in Oregon yet.

1405
01:50:34,125 --> 01:50:36,125
And I think that's a, that's sort of a

1406
01:50:36,125 --> 01:50:39,916
characteristic broadly of Oregon and in

1407
01:50:39,916 --> 01:50:44,583
sharks is that we don't see any real

1408
01:50:44,583 --> 01:50:46,875
residency at any of the places.

1409
01:50:46,875 --> 01:50:48,833
So whether it's whether you're a salmon

1410
01:50:48,833 --> 01:50:51,750
shark or a blue shark, you know, seven

1411
01:50:51,750 --> 01:50:53,875
gills, soup fins, all those, we have all

1412
01:50:53,875 --> 01:50:56,250
those here, but they don't tend to spend

1413
01:50:56,250 --> 01:50:58,750
much time in any one location. It's

1414
01:50:58,750 --> 01:51:00,750
almost where I've started to call Oregon

1415
01:51:00,750 --> 01:51:03,291
a flyover state for sharks.

1416
01:51:03,625 --> 01:51:05,375
They just kind of like they're moving

1417
01:51:05,375 --> 01:51:07,958
from habitats in California to habitats,

1418
01:51:07,958 --> 01:51:09,750
you know, maybe, maybe in Washington or

1419
01:51:09,750 --> 01:51:11,333
further north, but they just don't seem

1420
01:51:11,333 --> 01:51:14,583
to, to, to aggregate here in the same way

1421
01:51:14,583 --> 01:51:14,875
they do other places.

1422
01:51:14,875 --> 01:51:17,750
Have you ever tried to like, just kind of

1423
01:51:17,750 --> 01:51:20,500
spit ball in here with the on air, but do

1424
01:51:20,500 --> 01:51:22,333
you ever try to look at like, I know like

1425
01:51:22,333 --> 01:51:23,958
up in Northern California, like when the

1426
01:51:23,958 --> 01:51:25,958
salmon are running coming up the rivers,

1427
01:51:25,958 --> 01:51:27,750
the sea lions come in and

1428
01:51:27,750 --> 01:51:28,875
the white sharks are there.

1429
01:51:29,791 --> 01:51:32,500
And have you ever tried to look when you

1430
01:51:32,500 --> 01:51:34,208
get those conditions in Oregon, you look

1431
01:51:34,208 --> 01:51:36,375
around some of the river mouths? Yeah,

1432
01:51:36,375 --> 01:51:38,500
we've done, we've done a bunch of, you

1433
01:51:38,500 --> 01:51:40,458
know, a bunch of work off the, you know,

1434
01:51:40,458 --> 01:51:42,708
we'll, we'll get reports from folks here

1435
01:51:42,708 --> 01:51:43,875
and there that they see a, you know, a white shark here or a white shark here.

1436
01:51:43,875 --> 01:51:46,083
You know, a white shark here or they're

1437
01:51:46,083 --> 01:51:49,041
actually had a juvenile white shark off

1438
01:51:49,041 --> 01:51:51,458
of a beach up here just a month or so

1439
01:51:51,458 --> 01:51:53,625
ago. I mean, a legitimate, you know,

1440
01:51:53,625 --> 01:51:55,125
teeny tiny juvenile.

1441
01:51:56,541 --> 01:51:58,000
And so we get reports of them, but you

1442
01:51:58,000 --> 01:51:59,833
know, we'll go off these river mouths.

1443
01:51:59,833 --> 01:52:01,333
We'll go when there's salmon run, we'll

1444
01:52:01,333 --> 01:52:03,875
go to places that there's marine mammals

1445
01:52:03,875 --> 01:52:05,583
and we just haven't had any,

1446
01:52:06,000 --> 01:52:07,625
haven't had any luck with it.

1447
01:52:07,916 --> 01:52:10,458
And I think what's happening is that

1448
01:52:10,458 --> 01:52:13,583
there isn't that ideal, that perfect

1449
01:52:13,583 --> 01:52:16,958
storm of aggregation, marine mammals and

1450
01:52:16,958 --> 01:52:19,458
the right bathymetry and all those

1451
01:52:19,458 --> 01:52:21,625
characteristics that that come together

1452
01:52:21,625 --> 01:52:22,791
at places like the fair lines.

1453
01:52:22,791 --> 01:52:24,833
I think we just, we just don't have that

1454
01:52:24,833 --> 01:52:27,208
here. Have you talked? Okay. Have you

1455
01:52:27,208 --> 01:52:28,083
talked to the surfers?

1456
01:52:29,000 --> 01:52:30,541
Yeah, I mean, I'm one.

1457
01:52:31,041 --> 01:52:33,833
I know you are. Yeah, no, I've talked to

1458
01:52:33,833 --> 01:52:37,000
them. And actually we, you know, we, we,

1459
01:52:37,000 --> 01:52:38,291
the first thing I did here is we

1460
01:52:38,291 --> 01:52:41,708
collected all of the human interactions,

1461
01:52:42,083 --> 01:52:42,875
all of the sightings.

1462
01:52:42,875 --> 01:52:45,125
We actually have a report, a shark page

1463
01:52:45,125 --> 01:52:47,250
on our website that I just got a report

1464
01:52:47,250 --> 01:52:50,000
last night of a leopard shark in near Cus

1465
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:51,333
Bay, which is we don't get those very

1466
01:52:51,333 --> 01:52:54,500
often up here, but sometimes that we ask

1467
01:52:54,500 --> 01:52:55,875
people to report anything that they see.

1468
01:52:55,916 --> 01:52:58,916
And so even putting those records

1469
01:52:58,916 --> 01:53:01,666
together, we also have acoustic arrays up

1470
01:53:01,666 --> 01:53:03,458
and down the coast that so the sharks

1471
01:53:03,458 --> 01:53:04,833
that I've been tagging, you know, with

1472
01:53:04,833 --> 01:53:05,833
bar blocks team and Sal

1473
01:53:05,833 --> 01:53:07,083
Jorgensen down in California.

1474
01:53:07,083 --> 01:53:09,416
When those animals move up, we get those

1475
01:53:09,416 --> 01:53:11,125
detections. And so we, you know, we start

1476
01:53:11,125 --> 01:53:14,000
to sort of piece it together. But again,

1477
01:53:14,000 --> 01:53:15,750
it's, it's animals sort of moving past

1478
01:53:15,750 --> 01:53:18,041
these locations and not, not sticking

1479
01:53:18,041 --> 01:53:18,875
around for any period of time.

1480
01:53:18,916 --> 01:53:20,833
So if, you know, if you're trying to go

1481
01:53:20,833 --> 01:53:23,291
out and see one of these animals, that's,

1482
01:53:23,291 --> 01:53:25,000
you know, there's a couple hundred of

1483
01:53:25,000 --> 01:53:27,375
them around, you know, you got to get

1484
01:53:27,375 --> 01:53:30,458
really, really lucky. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1485
01:53:30,458 --> 01:53:32,750
Yeah. Yeah. So what? So I got to ask you

1486
01:53:32,750 --> 01:53:34,291
one of the things you guys are going to

1487
01:53:34,291 --> 01:53:36,625
be hosting the Northeast Pacific shark

1488
01:53:36,625 --> 01:53:39,000
symposium this year in March of next

1489
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:40,875
year. Tell us a little bit about that.

1490
01:53:41,875 --> 01:53:44,625
Yeah, thanks. We are super excited. We're

1491
01:53:44,625 --> 01:53:46,500
hosting the yeah, the Northeast Pacific

1492
01:53:46,500 --> 01:53:48,666
shark symposium out at Newport at

1493
01:53:48,666 --> 01:53:51,250
Hatfield Marine Science Center, which is

1494
01:53:51,250 --> 01:53:53,250
a for folks that have never been to the

1495
01:53:53,250 --> 01:53:54,416
Oregon coast. It is a

1496
01:53:54,416 --> 01:53:56,875
beautiful area of the coast.

1497
01:53:56,875 --> 01:53:59,541
And we have a brand new facilities there

1498
01:53:59,541 --> 01:54:00,958
that we're going to host the conference.

1499
01:54:02,000 --> 01:54:03,875
And it's a great opportunity for

1500
01:54:03,875 --> 01:54:05,916
especially for students to come showcase

1501
01:54:05,916 --> 01:54:08,208
the work that they do. And I think what's

1502
01:54:08,208 --> 01:54:11,958
best about naps and Dave again, you know,

1503
01:54:11,958 --> 01:54:13,875
this better than than most is that it's

1504
01:54:13,875 --> 01:54:17,500
such a great venue to, to, to be able to

1505
01:54:17,500 --> 01:54:19,416
share what you're doing, no matter what

1506
01:54:19,416 --> 01:54:21,375
stage you are as a, as a student, whether

1507
01:54:21,375 --> 01:54:22,875
you're an undergrad that's been doing a

1508
01:54:22,875 --> 01:54:25,000
thesis projects or you're,

1509
01:54:25,000 --> 01:54:25,875
you know, a, a grad student.

1510
01:54:26,291 --> 01:54:28,833
Who's, you know, finishing up their PhD

1511
01:54:28,833 --> 01:54:30,416
or a PI that wants to talk about the

1512
01:54:30,416 --> 01:54:32,250
project. It's a great place to have those

1513
01:54:32,250 --> 01:54:35,541
conversations and it's, it's set up to,

1514
01:54:35,541 --> 01:54:38,833
to, to network and in community build

1515
01:54:38,833 --> 01:54:40,625
really. And so we've got, you know, a

1516
01:54:40,625 --> 01:54:42,833
bunch of, of evenings that are going to

1517
01:54:42,833 --> 01:54:44,750
be hosted by Rogue Brewery going back to

1518
01:54:44,750 --> 01:54:45,750
what Andrew said. There's some great

1519
01:54:45,750 --> 01:54:47,291
breweries there. Rogue

1520
01:54:47,291 --> 01:54:47,875
Brewery is going to host a night.

1521
01:54:47,916 --> 01:54:50,791
The Oregon coast aquarium and Pelican

1522
01:54:50,791 --> 01:54:52,250
brewing are going to host another night.

1523
01:54:52,250 --> 01:54:54,250
So like all these opportunities just to

1524
01:54:54,250 --> 01:54:56,458
mix and see some of the cool science

1525
01:54:56,458 --> 01:54:58,125
that's happening along the coast. Yeah,

1526
01:54:58,125 --> 01:54:59,916
that's great. And it's a wonderful thing.

1527
01:54:59,916 --> 01:55:01,083
I really, I've seen a little biased,

1528
01:55:01,291 --> 01:55:03,250
haven't gotten involved with it, but it's

1529
01:55:03,250 --> 01:55:04,916
a, it really is a cool thing. And we

1530
01:55:04,916 --> 01:55:06,833
really, I know we started that we want to

1531
01:55:06,833 --> 01:55:10,250
have it as a, even grad students and

1532
01:55:10,250 --> 01:55:12,041
undergrads that just want to present some

1533
01:55:12,041 --> 01:55:13,666
early in their career, like just doing a

1534
01:55:13,666 --> 01:55:15,958
speed talk and it's a chance for them to,

1535
01:55:15,958 --> 01:55:16,875
you know, you're, you know, 23 years old.

1536
01:55:16,875 --> 01:55:19,375
And you don't know anybody. It's a good

1537
01:55:19,375 --> 01:55:22,250
chance to network with other similar age

1538
01:55:22,250 --> 01:55:24,833
grad students and stuff. So it's a, it's

1539
01:55:24,833 --> 01:55:27,375
a really cool, cool thing. Yeah, no,

1540
01:55:27,375 --> 01:55:29,583
it's, and it's unique, right? It's, it's

1541
01:55:29,583 --> 01:55:30,875
well, it's the second largest shark conference in the US.

1542
01:55:31,041 --> 01:55:35,833
And it's, it really does create that

1543
01:55:35,833 --> 01:55:39,791
environment to, to talk. And so we're,

1544
01:55:39,791 --> 01:55:41,041
we're changing the format up a little bit

1545
01:55:41,041 --> 01:55:42,916
this year and you know, we're doing some

1546
01:55:42,916 --> 01:55:45,041
faster talks for folks that maybe, you

1547
01:55:45,041 --> 01:55:47,166
know, just want to get the bullet points

1548
01:55:47,166 --> 01:55:50,416
out there and some longer talks and, you

1549
01:55:50,416 --> 01:55:52,666
know, just a mix of things in order to

1550
01:55:52,666 --> 01:55:53,875
really make the space accessible to wherever you are in your career.

1551
01:55:53,875 --> 01:56:00,083
And, you know, I think, you know, David,

1552
01:56:00,291 --> 01:56:02,083
it is great for the, for the, the

1553
01:56:02,083 --> 01:56:03,458
undergrads and the grad students, but

1554
01:56:03,458 --> 01:56:04,291
there's, you know, there's some

1555
01:56:04,291 --> 01:56:07,375
incredible PIs as well and other research

1556
01:56:07,375 --> 01:56:08,916
scientists that are there. So it's not,

1557
01:56:08,916 --> 01:56:11,958
you know, it's, it's by no means, you

1558
01:56:11,958 --> 01:56:13,875
know, just something that you're going to go talk to a bunch of students.

1559
01:56:13,875 --> 01:56:16,666
You're going to meet some of the, you

1560
01:56:16,666 --> 01:56:18,375
know, the, the folks that are really the

1561
01:56:18,375 --> 01:56:20,500
leaders in the field that are there and

1562
01:56:20,500 --> 01:56:22,208
you don't often get that opportunity.

1563
01:56:22,916 --> 01:56:25,375
Yeah. And it's very, it's a nice informal

1564
01:56:25,375 --> 01:56:27,291
casual environment, especially for the

1565
01:56:27,291 --> 01:56:28,500
students that, you know, get a chance to

1566
01:56:28,500 --> 01:56:30,916
meet some of us there and everything. So,

1567
01:56:30,916 --> 01:56:32,250
and when the dates

1568
01:56:32,250 --> 01:56:33,333
going to be, it's in March.

1569
01:56:34,000 --> 01:56:36,291
Yeah, it's March. Oh gosh, they put me on

1570
01:56:36,291 --> 01:56:39,958
the spot. It's the 19th, 19th and 20th. I

1571
01:56:39,958 --> 01:56:41,166
should have pulled that up before it.

1572
01:56:41,458 --> 01:56:42,875
It's a, I couldn't remember. I asked you.

1573
01:56:42,875 --> 01:56:45,916
It's yeah, it's the Thursday. The

1574
01:56:45,916 --> 01:56:47,625
Thursday is the, the, the sort of meet

1575
01:56:47,625 --> 01:56:49,083
and greet everybody shows up

1576
01:56:49,083 --> 01:56:51,041
registration. We'll do a parlay plenary

1577
01:56:51,041 --> 01:56:53,500
that night. And then Friday is the big

1578
01:56:53,500 --> 01:56:55,750
long day of lots of talks and workshops

1579
01:56:55,750 --> 01:56:57,833
and then we'll go into Saturday. And

1580
01:56:57,833 --> 01:56:59,375
then, and then folks are on their own to

1581
01:56:59,375 --> 01:57:01,333
explore Newport and the

1582
01:57:01,333 --> 01:57:01,875
beautiful coast of Oregon.

1583
01:57:01,916 --> 01:57:04,458
Yeah. And if you follow us on social

1584
01:57:04,458 --> 01:57:07,041
media, Taylor, myself, Chris Lowe, Nick

1585
01:57:07,041 --> 01:57:11,500
Dolby, any of us, Alex McInturff, you'll,

1586
01:57:11,500 --> 01:57:13,083
you'll find you'll, there'll be

1587
01:57:13,083 --> 01:57:14,125
information. We'll be posting information

1588
01:57:14,125 --> 01:57:15,916
as we get closer to the date. So if you

1589
01:57:15,916 --> 01:57:16,583
want to find out more.

1590
01:57:16,958 --> 01:57:20,583
Yeah. Oh yeah. My plan is right now to

1591
01:57:20,583 --> 01:57:23,666
go. Yep. So, uh, yeah, no, we're, we're

1592
01:57:23,666 --> 01:57:25,250
excited about it. It'll be a, it'll be an

1593
01:57:25,250 --> 01:57:27,750
awesome, awesome conference. And yeah, I

1594
01:57:27,750 --> 01:57:29,791
think we're, you know, we've been, we've

1595
01:57:29,791 --> 01:57:30,875
been talking to folks from, you know, whether it's Mexico,

1596
01:57:30,916 --> 01:57:34,708
and Alaska and us Canada that, you know,

1597
01:57:35,000 --> 01:57:36,041
it really, we're hoping to have a really

1598
01:57:36,041 --> 01:57:37,666
good showing. Yeah. Yeah. We usually get

1599
01:57:37,666 --> 01:57:39,916
Oscar Sosa and Felipe Galvans. We, a lot

1600
01:57:39,916 --> 01:57:43,541
of Pacific coast Mexican researchers come

1601
01:57:43,541 --> 01:57:45,000
up. So it's really pretty much from

1602
01:57:45,000 --> 01:57:47,166
Alaska to Mexico at Pacific coast. We get

1603
01:57:47,166 --> 01:57:51,083
a good cross group of people there. And

1604
01:57:51,083 --> 01:57:53,166
so yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I

1605
01:57:53,166 --> 01:57:55,666
plan to be up there and great thing. So

1606
01:57:55,666 --> 01:57:58,166
it'd be great. So, so there's been super

1607
01:57:58,166 --> 01:57:59,916
Taylor site. Got to ask you a question.

1608
01:57:59,916 --> 01:58:00,875
So like, what would, what would, what would you do?

1609
01:58:00,916 --> 01:58:03,458
Um, what would be your advice for like

1610
01:58:03,458 --> 01:58:05,750
person starting out a young student who

1611
01:58:05,750 --> 01:58:06,791
wants to get in the field?

1612
01:58:08,250 --> 01:58:12,916
I think my, my biggest sort of suggestion

1613
01:58:12,916 --> 01:58:15,208
would be to take opportunities, whether

1614
01:58:15,208 --> 01:58:18,208
those opportunities are the one that you

1615
01:58:18,208 --> 01:58:19,875
imagine in that pathway or their

1616
01:58:19,875 --> 01:58:22,125
opportunities that come up. And so, you

1617
01:58:22,125 --> 01:58:24,000
know, I think I said this before is that

1618
01:58:24,000 --> 01:58:25,333
there's this idea of, you know, this

1619
01:58:25,333 --> 01:58:26,583
linear path for me to be.

1620
01:58:27,250 --> 01:58:29,083
But that's not how you get there. And

1621
01:58:29,083 --> 01:58:31,958
it's for me, in my experience, it's those

1622
01:58:31,958 --> 01:58:34,875
offshoot pathways that have led to some

1623
01:58:34,875 --> 01:58:38,166
of the most pivotal moments in my, in

1624
01:58:38,166 --> 01:58:41,291
sort of my walk to where I am now.

1625
01:58:41,916 --> 01:58:45,958
And so it's okay to try things. It's okay

1626
01:58:45,958 --> 01:58:47,750
to not like things. It's okay to say, I

1627
01:58:47,750 --> 01:58:49,625
don't ever want to do that again. I don't

1628
01:58:49,625 --> 01:58:52,208
ever want to, you know, do stomach

1629
01:58:52,208 --> 01:58:54,000
contents again, you know, or whatever it

1630
01:58:54,000 --> 01:58:54,875
is. No offense to anybody

1631
01:58:54,875 --> 01:58:55,750
that does stomach contents.

1632
01:58:56,750 --> 01:58:58,291
But you know, there's like, those things

1633
01:58:58,291 --> 01:59:00,041
are okay. Try and see what they are, see

1634
01:59:00,041 --> 01:59:01,416
what they're about. You know, I think

1635
01:59:01,416 --> 01:59:04,083
that's the, there's, there's, I think

1636
01:59:04,083 --> 01:59:05,666
this false perception that there's a,

1637
01:59:05,666 --> 01:59:07,416
there's a right way to do it. And it

1638
01:59:07,416 --> 01:59:10,000
turns out there isn't like, I would guess

1639
01:59:10,000 --> 01:59:10,875
that you could have a panel of people.

1640
01:59:11,125 --> 01:59:13,958
Have a panel of folks that are, you know,

1641
01:59:14,541 --> 01:59:16,000
midway through their career at the end of

1642
01:59:16,000 --> 01:59:18,458
their career. And none of them will have

1643
01:59:18,458 --> 01:59:20,750
the same pathway to where they are. I

1644
01:59:20,750 --> 01:59:23,208
didn't, I ended up at this position.

1645
01:59:23,833 --> 01:59:26,791
Not on purpose. I mean, I actually, full

1646
01:59:26,791 --> 01:59:29,541
disclosure, I was a spousal hire. My wife

1647
01:59:29,541 --> 01:59:32,041
got the job here and I was like a plus

1648
01:59:32,041 --> 01:59:34,625
one. But now I have this incredible lab,

1649
01:59:34,625 --> 01:59:35,583
these incredible people, I

1650
01:59:35,583 --> 01:59:36,875
get to do all this cool stuff.

1651
01:59:36,875 --> 01:59:39,541
But it wasn't like my, I was not an

1652
01:59:39,541 --> 01:59:41,291
academic. I was not aiming to be an

1653
01:59:41,291 --> 01:59:43,833
academic. I ended up here sort of through

1654
01:59:43,833 --> 01:59:45,791
a series of situations that got me here.

1655
01:59:45,791 --> 01:59:47,708
And I love it. I love the people I work

1656
01:59:47,708 --> 01:59:49,250
with. I love the science I get to do. And

1657
01:59:49,250 --> 01:59:51,791
so I guess this is a long winded way of

1658
01:59:51,791 --> 01:59:53,125
just saying that, like, take the

1659
01:59:53,125 --> 01:59:55,000
opportunities and don't think that the,

1660
01:59:55,000 --> 01:59:58,333
the, the pathway that you have in your

1661
01:59:58,333 --> 01:59:59,666
mind is the only way to do it.

1662
01:59:59,666 --> 02:00:01,083
Because there's so many different ways to

1663
02:00:01,083 --> 02:00:03,458
get there. Yeah, absolutely. Well said.

1664
02:00:03,791 --> 02:00:05,875
Well said. Great, great, great advice. And thanks very much for coming.

1665
02:00:05,875 --> 02:00:09,750
And we'll have to have you back on

1666
02:00:09,750 --> 02:00:12,000
sometime again in the future here. And

1667
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:13,625
yeah, you know, next time I'll come in

1668
02:00:13,625 --> 02:00:15,000
and I'll talk about the science instead

1669
02:00:15,000 --> 02:00:16,458
of talking about, you know, all the

1670
02:00:16,458 --> 02:00:21,125
logistics of we do bonus episodes where

1671
02:00:21,125 --> 02:00:22,500
you can come on and we'll talk about

1672
02:00:22,500 --> 02:00:24,375
specific science and we'll

1673
02:00:24,375 --> 02:00:25,666
do all that. Yeah, absolutely.

1674
02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:27,416
Come back and tell us about the flamingos

1675
02:00:27,416 --> 02:00:29,625
when you get back from. Yeah, I would

1676
02:00:29,625 --> 02:00:31,583
love to come back with pictures and

1677
02:00:31,583 --> 02:00:33,750
hopefully, you know, all of my eyeballs

1678
02:00:33,750 --> 02:00:34,875
everybody, you know, you worry about sharks and fingers. But I think that's a good thing.

1679
02:00:34,916 --> 02:00:35,416
Yeah, there's a lot of sharks and

1680
02:00:35,416 --> 02:00:37,375
fingers, but it's birds. They birds.

1681
02:00:37,666 --> 02:00:40,583
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. All right.

1682
02:00:40,583 --> 02:00:42,458
Well, thank you so much. I really

1683
02:00:42,458 --> 02:00:44,958
appreciate it. And safe travels on your

1684
02:00:44,958 --> 02:00:47,041
next part of your journey. Awesome.

1685
02:00:47,041 --> 02:00:47,916
Thanks so much. I really

1686
02:00:47,916 --> 02:00:48,916
appreciate it being here, guys.

1687
02:00:49,916 --> 02:00:51,083
Thank you Taylor for joining us on

1688
02:00:51,083 --> 02:00:52,000
today's episode of

1689
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:53,083
the Beyond Jaws podcast.

1690
02:00:53,833 --> 02:00:57,000
Dave, being able to travel all that way,

1691
02:00:57,000 --> 02:00:58,125
like around the world,

1692
02:00:58,125 --> 02:00:58,958
like you've done it too,

1693
02:00:59,416 --> 02:01:01,041
where you did grad work overseas.

1694
02:01:02,041 --> 02:01:05,208
It's an incredible story, comes with

1695
02:01:05,208 --> 02:01:06,041
challenges, but also

1696
02:01:06,041 --> 02:01:07,041
comes with some really

1697
02:01:07,125 --> 02:01:10,333
incredible life experiences, not only

1698
02:01:10,333 --> 02:01:11,250
from a science

1699
02:01:11,250 --> 02:01:12,416
perspective, but just from a

1700
02:01:12,458 --> 02:01:13,458
personal perspective.

1701
02:01:14,000 --> 02:01:15,708
You know, what was it like hearing that?

1702
02:01:16,000 --> 02:01:18,416
Did it remind you of somebody?

1703
02:01:18,708 --> 02:01:22,000
Yeah, it did a little bit hearing about

1704
02:01:22,000 --> 02:01:24,666
all of his travels and his going around.

1705
02:01:24,666 --> 02:01:26,541
He mentioned about spending six months

1706
02:01:26,541 --> 02:01:27,541
out of the country a year.

1707
02:01:27,541 --> 02:01:29,416
And I'm like, yeah, I got that one.

1708
02:01:29,416 --> 02:01:30,958
I know what that's like.

1709
02:01:32,458 --> 02:01:34,000
But he's got even more challenges because

1710
02:01:34,000 --> 02:01:34,708
it was usually it was

1711
02:01:34,708 --> 02:01:36,291
just me going where he has

1712
02:01:36,333 --> 02:01:38,625
a spouse and she's in the field, but then

1713
02:01:38,625 --> 02:01:39,375
he's got two young

1714
02:01:39,375 --> 02:01:41,375
children who are now nine and 11.

1715
02:01:41,583 --> 02:01:42,958
But he sounded like he's been taking him

1716
02:01:42,958 --> 02:01:44,583
since they were basically born.

1717
02:01:44,625 --> 02:01:47,500
Didn't slow him and his wife up from from

1718
02:01:47,500 --> 02:01:49,958
taking him on a journey around the world.

1719
02:01:50,458 --> 02:01:51,791
And so those kids would be amazing

1720
02:01:51,791 --> 02:01:52,583
experience when they get

1721
02:01:52,583 --> 02:01:54,125
older, having that having that

1722
02:01:54,125 --> 02:01:55,000
experience of being all

1723
02:01:55,000 --> 02:01:56,041
these different countries.

1724
02:01:56,708 --> 02:01:58,166
And then, of course, he's

1725
02:01:58,166 --> 02:01:59,250
got all his gear to bring.

1726
02:01:59,250 --> 02:02:01,500
He's got him and his wife's in the field.

1727
02:02:01,500 --> 02:02:03,041
So she's got all her gear to bring.

1728
02:02:03,458 --> 02:02:03,791
Yeah.

1729
02:02:03,791 --> 02:02:06,291
So it's quite a quite a big, big thing

1730
02:02:06,291 --> 02:02:07,125
for all the different

1731
02:02:07,125 --> 02:02:09,958
different things just to

1732
02:02:09,958 --> 02:02:11,000
bring all the kids, the

1733
02:02:11,000 --> 02:02:12,791
family, the gear and then.

1734
02:02:13,458 --> 02:02:13,875
Yeah.

1735
02:02:13,875 --> 02:02:14,583
And then then then

1736
02:02:14,583 --> 02:02:15,625
she's working on birds.

1737
02:02:15,625 --> 02:02:16,583
He's working on sharks.

1738
02:02:17,000 --> 02:02:17,166
Yeah.

1739
02:02:17,583 --> 02:02:19,833
It's that was that was all interesting to

1740
02:02:19,833 --> 02:02:22,541
hear how he's navigated that so far in

1741
02:02:22,541 --> 02:02:25,083
his in his career and everything.

1742
02:02:25,375 --> 02:02:28,500
So all even even just like navigating his

1743
02:02:28,500 --> 02:02:30,000
career, but also the

1744
02:02:30,000 --> 02:02:32,500
the challenges that come.

1745
02:02:32,791 --> 02:02:34,666
And I didn't realize this with doing

1746
02:02:34,666 --> 02:02:37,083
shark research in Oregon, you know, not

1747
02:02:37,083 --> 02:02:40,416
an easy place to shark research, you

1748
02:02:40,416 --> 02:02:42,083
know, talking about some of the like the

1749
02:02:42,625 --> 02:02:47,000
hectic and treacherous waves and and and

1750
02:02:47,000 --> 02:02:48,875
sort of, you know, conditions that could

1751
02:02:48,875 --> 02:02:51,125
happen out along the Oregon coast.

1752
02:02:51,416 --> 02:02:52,375
Not a lot of Bay's.

1753
02:02:52,375 --> 02:02:53,916
So you can't it's difficult to do like

1754
02:02:53,916 --> 02:02:56,000
coastal surveys and so forth.

1755
02:02:56,291 --> 02:02:58,000
So I thought that was interesting.

1756
02:02:58,000 --> 02:02:59,125
I that was new to me.

1757
02:02:59,125 --> 02:03:01,583
I didn't know Oregon was that, you know,

1758
02:03:02,000 --> 02:03:03,333
difficult to work within.

1759
02:03:03,666 --> 02:03:05,416
I'm being able to work within that by

1760
02:03:05,416 --> 02:03:06,333
discovering some pretty

1761
02:03:06,333 --> 02:03:07,250
cool things in the future.

1762
02:03:07,291 --> 02:03:09,375
Yeah. Well, Northern California, Oregon

1763
02:03:09,375 --> 02:03:12,125
and the Pacific Coast outside Puget Sound

1764
02:03:12,125 --> 02:03:13,208
in Washington state.

1765
02:03:13,875 --> 02:03:14,791
That's pretty rugged.

1766
02:03:15,041 --> 02:03:16,083
It's pretty rugged to

1767
02:03:16,083 --> 02:03:17,916
work up there in that area.

1768
02:03:17,916 --> 02:03:19,666
And as we talked about in the show, like

1769
02:03:19,666 --> 02:03:22,458
having gone to Humboldt State, we there

1770
02:03:22,458 --> 02:03:23,875
was a bay there and you work in the bay.

1771
02:03:24,125 --> 02:03:25,666
It's OK. Do step.

1772
02:03:25,666 --> 02:03:26,333
But you go out in that

1773
02:03:26,333 --> 02:03:28,541
coast, man, it's it's treacherous.

1774
02:03:29,000 --> 02:03:29,666
Forty foot waves.

1775
02:03:30,125 --> 02:03:31,458
Oh, yes. Yeah.

1776
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:32,708
I'm not surprised.

1777
02:03:33,083 --> 02:03:34,208
Yeah. Not surprised at all.

1778
02:03:34,250 --> 02:03:35,083
You get out there and and

1779
02:03:35,083 --> 02:03:37,666
trying to try to do shark work.

1780
02:03:37,666 --> 02:03:38,708
And he's working on these large sharks

1781
02:03:38,708 --> 02:03:40,541
and the and, you know, at least in the

1782
02:03:40,541 --> 02:03:43,083
like in up in Northern California,

1783
02:03:43,083 --> 02:03:44,500
Humboldt Bay, you know, times of the

1784
02:03:44,500 --> 02:03:46,458
year, sharks will congregate in that bay.

1785
02:03:46,458 --> 02:03:47,625
Right. But if you're going out in the

1786
02:03:47,625 --> 02:03:50,291
open coast like he is in Oregon, it's

1787
02:03:50,291 --> 02:03:51,500
going to be a challenge trying to find

1788
02:03:51,500 --> 02:03:52,833
where these sharks are hanging out.

1789
02:03:52,833 --> 02:03:54,791
And I know I think what he said about

1790
02:03:54,791 --> 02:03:56,291
them sort of being a bit of a highway

1791
02:03:56,291 --> 02:03:58,958
from going from California to Washington

1792
02:03:58,958 --> 02:04:01,708
or up into British Columbia.

1793
02:04:02,083 --> 02:04:04,000
That's probably pretty accurate. I don't

1794
02:04:04,000 --> 02:04:04,458
think there's anything

1795
02:04:04,458 --> 02:04:06,250
really for them to stop off.

1796
02:04:06,250 --> 02:04:08,333
There's no bays or really good estuaries

1797
02:04:08,333 --> 02:04:09,875
that they're going to be in there.

1798
02:04:10,166 --> 02:04:12,333
Whereas, yeah, Humboldt Bay is a is a is

1799
02:04:12,333 --> 02:04:14,791
a puppy and area for

1800
02:04:14,791 --> 02:04:16,000
them in a nursery area.

1801
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:18,083
But that is a bit protected. But boy,

1802
02:04:18,083 --> 02:04:20,708
Oregon, it's it's not easy at all.

1803
02:04:21,083 --> 02:04:21,500
Yeah, you've got the

1804
02:04:21,500 --> 02:04:22,625
elements to deal with.

1805
02:04:22,625 --> 02:04:23,750
Yeah. Yeah.

1806
02:04:24,208 --> 02:04:25,458
I should have asked him more about the

1807
02:04:25,458 --> 02:04:27,333
the flat sharks after the skates, because

1808
02:04:27,333 --> 02:04:28,541
there are a lot of skates up there.

1809
02:04:28,541 --> 02:04:29,916
And I don't I shouldn't have to have back

1810
02:04:29,916 --> 02:04:31,000
on talk about the skates next.

1811
02:04:31,083 --> 02:04:32,875
We'll talk about his skate science. We'll

1812
02:04:32,875 --> 02:04:34,458
just that's where he's going to come on.

1813
02:04:34,458 --> 02:04:35,000
We're going to like this is

1814
02:04:35,000 --> 02:04:36,000
what we want to talk about.

1815
02:04:36,000 --> 02:04:38,916
You'll talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1816
02:04:38,916 --> 02:04:41,750
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, he's kind of like a

1817
02:04:41,750 --> 02:04:42,833
lot of other things besides the

1818
02:04:42,833 --> 02:04:43,625
international stuff.

1819
02:04:43,625 --> 02:04:45,125
He started back in Ohio, went to New

1820
02:04:45,125 --> 02:04:48,000
England out to Washington and to Florida

1821
02:04:48,000 --> 02:04:49,875
and then back to Oregon

1822
02:04:49,875 --> 02:04:50,958
or actually California.

1823
02:04:51,333 --> 02:04:53,750
I went to California and then yeah and

1824
02:04:53,750 --> 02:04:55,000
everything. And so it was

1825
02:04:55,000 --> 02:04:56,333
interesting in Oregon. Yeah.

1826
02:04:56,375 --> 02:04:58,083
Yeah. And then it's interesting is his

1827
02:04:58,083 --> 02:05:00,208
wife actually got the position in Oregon

1828
02:05:00,208 --> 02:05:02,000
and he was as he said, the

1829
02:05:02,000 --> 02:05:03,791
plus one to get on there.

1830
02:05:04,166 --> 02:05:06,333
So I think I think he also

1831
02:05:06,333 --> 02:05:08,125
undersells himself as well.

1832
02:05:08,125 --> 02:05:09,791
I find when somebody says, hey, you know,

1833
02:05:09,791 --> 02:05:10,916
my spouse is over there.

1834
02:05:10,916 --> 02:05:12,500
I got a job there, too.

1835
02:05:12,833 --> 02:05:14,625
He does a pretty incredible work, too.

1836
02:05:14,625 --> 02:05:15,416
And he's got that

1837
02:05:15,416 --> 02:05:16,583
experience around the world.

1838
02:05:17,458 --> 02:05:18,916
So, yes, potentially, like,

1839
02:05:18,916 --> 02:05:19,833
you know, that's what it is.

1840
02:05:19,833 --> 02:05:21,208
But I think, you know, they're not just

1841
02:05:21,208 --> 02:05:22,041
going to hire someone

1842
02:05:22,041 --> 02:05:22,666
just for the higher.

1843
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:24,916
And they've got to they've got to be a

1844
02:05:24,916 --> 02:05:27,375
really good scientist and that's what he

1845
02:05:27,375 --> 02:05:29,291
is. And his wife is too.

1846
02:05:29,291 --> 02:05:31,416
And I think that's, you know, Oregon

1847
02:05:31,416 --> 02:05:33,500
State benefited from that for sure.

1848
02:05:33,500 --> 02:05:34,875
Right. Yeah. And I mean, I don't know. I

1849
02:05:34,875 --> 02:05:35,416
don't know. I don't know

1850
02:05:35,416 --> 02:05:37,583
about his wife's background.

1851
02:05:37,875 --> 02:05:39,750
We didn't get into that. But but, you

1852
02:05:39,750 --> 02:05:41,791
know, I know Taylor is very prolific in

1853
02:05:41,791 --> 02:05:43,125
terms of his publication record.

1854
02:05:43,166 --> 02:05:44,791
And they tell people if you're going to

1855
02:05:44,791 --> 02:05:46,416
go in the field, that's that's the

1856
02:05:46,416 --> 02:05:47,583
currency you got to publish.

1857
02:05:48,291 --> 02:05:50,083
And if you're young people listening,

1858
02:05:50,750 --> 02:05:52,875
being one name out of 10 or 20 names is

1859
02:05:52,875 --> 02:05:55,083
not OK, it's a publication, but they're

1860
02:05:55,083 --> 02:05:56,041
looking for the who's the

1861
02:05:56,041 --> 02:05:57,333
lead author in that paper.

1862
02:05:57,333 --> 02:05:58,958
And that's where you need to be when

1863
02:05:58,958 --> 02:06:00,166
you're starting out, you know, you get a

1864
02:06:00,166 --> 02:06:01,041
little further in your career.

1865
02:06:01,041 --> 02:06:02,958
It can be it can change. But starting

1866
02:06:02,958 --> 02:06:03,708
out, you need to be the

1867
02:06:03,708 --> 02:06:06,041
lead on on on some papers.

1868
02:06:06,291 --> 02:06:07,458
That's what's going to help. That's going

1869
02:06:07,458 --> 02:06:08,250
to be your currency for

1870
02:06:08,250 --> 02:06:09,916
getting a position. No doubt.

1871
02:06:10,375 --> 02:06:12,041
So but yeah, it was

1872
02:06:12,041 --> 02:06:12,750
really I was pretty good.

1873
02:06:12,791 --> 02:06:13,666
We talked a little bit about that

1874
02:06:13,666 --> 02:06:14,833
Northeast Pacific

1875
02:06:14,833 --> 02:06:17,833
Shark Symposium as well.

1876
02:06:17,833 --> 02:06:19,500
We'll probably maybe have have someone on

1877
02:06:19,500 --> 02:06:21,000
from his lab afterwards

1878
02:06:21,000 --> 02:06:22,916
to talk to Amy afterwards.

1879
02:06:22,916 --> 02:06:25,250
It's a fun conference to go to. It's kind

1880
02:06:25,250 --> 02:06:27,500
of it's mainly on the mainly for people

1881
02:06:27,500 --> 02:06:28,666
on the Pacific Coast here.

1882
02:06:28,666 --> 02:06:30,500
But as he says, like the second largest

1883
02:06:30,500 --> 02:06:34,333
shark conference after the AAS here.

1884
02:06:34,708 --> 02:06:36,583
And we have it every two years. So

1885
02:06:36,583 --> 02:06:38,000
looking forward to looking forward to

1886
02:06:38,000 --> 02:06:40,916
that and then all that and all that fun

1887
02:06:40,916 --> 02:06:42,416
festivities that it'll bring.

1888
02:06:42,458 --> 02:06:45,708
So anyway, now it's really good. We'll

1889
02:06:45,708 --> 02:06:47,833
definitely have back on to talk about

1890
02:06:47,833 --> 02:06:48,958
whatever whatever happens

1891
02:06:48,958 --> 02:06:50,458
to be going on at this time.

1892
02:06:51,125 --> 02:06:53,333
Yeah, we're going to look forward to it.

1893
02:06:53,583 --> 02:06:55,208
This has been great. Thanks.

1894
02:06:55,833 --> 02:06:58,791
Thanks again to Taylor for jumping on,

1895
02:06:58,791 --> 02:07:00,500
especially, you know, about to go away

1896
02:07:00,500 --> 02:07:02,458
for a month in Argentina.

1897
02:07:02,666 --> 02:07:05,958
Enjoy safe travels. But we love having,

1898
02:07:05,958 --> 02:07:08,500
you know, guys like him on and girls like

1899
02:07:08,500 --> 02:07:10,250
him on and whoever, you know, I think

1900
02:07:10,250 --> 02:07:11,875
it's have a research or science concert.

1901
02:07:12,500 --> 02:07:14,500
Shark conservationist, you know,

1902
02:07:14,500 --> 02:07:15,833
researcher, scientist.

1903
02:07:16,625 --> 02:07:18,833
That's what we love. And then Taylor just

1904
02:07:18,833 --> 02:07:20,416
kind of embodies that.

1905
02:07:20,416 --> 02:07:21,916
And I think that's that's really great to

1906
02:07:21,916 --> 02:07:24,333
see. So thanks to Taylor.

1907
02:07:24,333 --> 02:07:25,500
And of course, Dave, thanks. A lot of

1908
02:07:25,500 --> 02:07:26,708
people want to get a hold of you, Dave.

1909
02:07:26,958 --> 02:07:28,916
How would they do so? Instagram, Lost

1910
02:07:28,916 --> 02:07:30,500
Shark Guy. Follow me.

1911
02:07:30,500 --> 02:07:33,458
And also YouTube, Lost Shark Guy. Check

1912
02:07:33,458 --> 02:07:34,666
out the series Searching for

1913
02:07:34,666 --> 02:07:36,208
Lost Sharks, Extinct or Alive.

1914
02:07:36,208 --> 02:07:37,708
And please consider subscribing because

1915
02:07:37,708 --> 02:07:40,291
that helps funding and continue getting

1916
02:07:40,291 --> 02:07:41,708
some good programming out there.

1917
02:07:42,416 --> 02:07:43,708
Absolutely. And then of course, if you

1918
02:07:43,708 --> 02:07:45,500
want to continue to watch this, just

1919
02:07:45,500 --> 02:07:46,083
subscribe to the

1920
02:07:46,083 --> 02:07:47,791
Beyond Jaws Pod on YouTube.

1921
02:07:48,708 --> 02:07:50,291
And of course, you can hit us up on

1922
02:07:50,291 --> 02:07:52,375
Beyond Jaws Pod on Instagram. Thank you

1923
02:07:52,375 --> 02:07:53,833
guys so much for joining us.

1924
02:07:53,833 --> 02:07:55,208
We really do appreciate you listening to

1925
02:07:55,208 --> 02:07:56,583
us each and every week from Dave and I.

1926
02:07:56,583 --> 02:07:57,333
Thank you very much.

1927
02:07:57,333 --> 02:07:59,000
Have a great day and happy conservation.