Thomas Jefferson and Leadership with Frank Cogliano

[00:00:00] Lindsay Chervinsky: What can we learn about leadership from Thomas Jefferson? Welcome to Leadership and Legacy Conversations at the George Washington Presidential Library at Mount Vernon. I'm Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky, Director of the Library. In this podcast series, we talk with experts about leadership and history, how studying these stories helps us understand our current moment and how we can apply lessons from leaders in the past to our own lives.

I am so excited to bring you this episode with Dr. Francis Cogliano. He's the author or editor of 12 books, a professor of history at the University of Edinburgh, and a truly delightful human. He's long been a friend and a mentor, a genuine force for good in the field of early American history, and a riotous good time, as you'll probably tell from the conversation.

We had a little too much fun recording this episode, and it easily could have been four hours long. Most recently, Dr. Cogliano published A Revolutionary Friendship, Washington, Jefferson, and the American Republic, which was the subject of our conversation today. But he also has two new books coming out in 2026, The American Revolution at 250, which we will feature at an event at Mount Vernon, and Thomas Jefferson Survives.

So stay tuned for those, and for now, I hope you enjoy this conversation on Thomas Jefferson and, of course, George Washington.

Well, Frank, thank you so much for joining us. I am so thrilled that you are here in North America, in Virginia, and at the George Washington Presidential Library. You are here for the George Washington Book Prize finalist panel event, which we are hosting tonight, and I was thrilled to take the opportunity to squeeze out all your knowledge on Jefferson and leadership since I don't usually give him any plotts in that particular area.

So, welcome to the library.

[00:01:54] Frank Cogliano: Thank you so much, Lindsay. It's great to be here and I'm honored to be here under these circumstances and a little humbled.

[00:01:59] Lindsay Chervinsky: Oh, well we're so thrilled that you are, and it is such a pleasure when we are able to put together a prize finalist list that we both really love the books, but also like the people.

So this year is a fun year in that regard. So, Jefferson and leadership, I, I don't think most people typically associate those words because when they think of leadership, we often pull together the more you know, stereotypical masculine military qualities of leadership, or we talk about Presidents. And, while Jefferson did a lot of things as president, I'm not sure necessarily they associate him with like the Lincoln of the Civil War, FDR of World War II, but as I was preparing for this conversation, I, came up with three areas that Jefferson might be considered a leader, the world of ideas, as a party builder, and as president. So I would love to talk to you about all three of those. Let's perhaps start with ideas as we are heading into 2026, and he's gonna be talked about a whole lot.

[00:02:51] Frank Cogliano: Yeah, it's gonna be a hard year for you, isn't it, Lindsay? (Both Laugh)

[00:02:54] Lindsay Chervinsky: Gonna be a lot of eye rolling. Can I just feel like "No, he, stole it all from John Adams." that's just gonna be like my grave marker sign.

[00:03:04] Frank Cogliano: (Laughs)

So yeah, Jefferson is a leader on, on ideas. I think you're right. I mean, I think probably if we are assessing Jefferson in the macro, his most important contributions are in the realm of ideas.

I think, I think, we're on safe ground there. The Declaration of Independence being first and foremost, which will be celebrating, commemorating, marking, next year, the 250th anniversary, but also other issues, the Virginia statue for Religious Freedom, comes to mind, the creation of the University of Virginia and designing the curriculum for that.

A lot of his thinking on constitution making, for example, although he never actually got to draft a constitution, much to his regret, and I think in the realm of ideas, and in the life of the mind, as we used to call it. I think he is a leader. Interestingly, despite those many and frankly important contributions, those are the reasons we remember him.

[00:03:50] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm. Well, and also those are the reasons he wants to be remembered.

[00:03:53] Frank Cogliano: Yes.

[00:03:53] Lindsay Chervinsky: Because the things that you just said, the things you just listed, UVA, Declaration of Independence, and then Religious Freedom. Those are what he put on his tombstone.

[00:04:01] Frank Cogliano: The tombstone legacy stuff. Yeah. And he's shaping his posthumous reputation.

[00:04:06] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:06] Frank Cogliano: With that tombstone. This is a guy who had a lot of things he could have put on his tombstone, President of the United States.

[00:04:11] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:12] Frank Cogliano: Secretary of State, Vice President, et cetera, but didn't put those on, so, so he himself thought his most important contributions were in the realm of ideas, and I think that's significant.

[00:04:22] Lindsay Chervinsky: A note for our listeners, the full text of Jefferson's epitaph, which he wrote himself is, "Here was buried Thomas Jefferson, author of The Declaration of American Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom, and Father of the University of Virginia." these were Jefferson's greatest hits, at least according to him.

We'll talk through each of these in turn.

[00:04:45] Frank Cogliano: Interestingly, however, he didn't write very much or leave us much in the way of his thinking on leadership itself.

[00:04:52] Lindsay Chervinsky: Interesting. Say more.

[00:04:53] Frank Cogliano: So, you know, we don't have a treatise from him. You know, he read Machiavelli and he wrote a little bit about Machiavelli, but he didn't write one of your guys, John Adams, you know, wrote discourses on Davila.

Right.

[00:05:04] Lindsay Chervinsky: What didn't he write on really?

[00:05:05] Frank Cogliano: Right. Well, exactly. And Jefferson, for all his, many, many interests and his very kind of ecumenical approach to,

[00:05:12] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-Hmm

[00:05:12] Frank Cogliano: to ideas. Didn't say a lot about leadership except, insofar as condemning dictators. So he did condemn Caesar and Bonaparte. He did draw a contrast between some of his history's, malfactors, as it were.

[00:05:26] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:26] Frank Cogliano: And the present. He has a lot to say about George Washington.

[00:05:29] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:29] Frank Cogliano: We'll get to,

[00:05:30] Lindsay Chervinsky: that'll circle back to that.

[00:05:30] Frank Cogliano: We'll, we'll get

[00:05:31] Lindsay Chervinsky: mm-hmm.

[00:05:31] Frank Cogliano: Let's put a pin in that. But he didn't write a, yeah, he didn't write an essay on leadership, for example.

[00:05:36] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:36] Frank Cogliano: There's no kind of discourse on leadership from him, which is I find quite interesting and we're gonna get onto politics.

His political style of leadership was very much of its time.

[00:05:45] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:45] Frank Cogliano: And doesn't translate well over time. But he was clearly thinking about power.

[00:05:49] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:50] Frank Cogliano: And how to best deploy power and the danger that excessive concentrated power posed. But he didn't write much on leadership itself.

[00:05:58] Lindsay Chervinsky: It strikes me that his lack of writing about leadership is also quite similar to his approach to politics, which is that there's a lot of things that you don't put on paper.

[00:06:08] Frank Cogliano: Yeah. For a guy whose legacy is 40,000 letters,

(Both Laugh)

it's what's not in what he didn't write about. That's quite striking. And his style of political leadership is very much face to face.

[00:06:19] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:20] Frank Cogliano: it's conversational. He wants people to write.

[00:06:22] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:22] Frank Cogliano: So he, he often uses people as proxies, but unlike Alexander Hamilton, who gets himself in trouble with the amount of writing he does,

[00:06:28] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:29] Frank Cogliano: for publication, he doesn't do that. And you and I have talked about this off air in the past. This could be construed as sneaky, (laughs).

[00:06:36] Lindsay Chervinsky: Or, you know, as, as the great Joanne Freeman says, the best way to understand Thomas Jefferson is to sometimes understand that he lies.

[00:06:44] Frank Cogliano: Joanne once said that to me. She said, Frank,

[00:06:46] Lindsay Chervinsky: great line.

[00:06:47] Frank Cogliano: Once you accept that premise, things start to make sense. And she's right. She's right about that. Lies, I would qualify that slightly, and I'm certainly not here to defend Jefferson. Jefferson is of a culture that produced Washington as well, that elite Virginia Gentry culture, which places a huge emphasis on politeness and sociability.

And so, Jefferson frequently gives people the impression that he agrees with them. He, unlike John Adams, doesn't argue with people.

[00:07:13] Lindsay Chervinsky: Well, it's interesting

[00:07:14] Frank Cogliano: or doesn't argue with them to their faces.

[00:07:15] Lindsay Chervinsky: It's interesting because that emphasis on politeness and sociability, which we generally consider to be good qualities, almost requires a certain duplicity, which we consider to be a bad quality.

[00:07:27] Frank Cogliano: Right.

That's right. And so I think when people leave the room thinking Jefferson agreed with them, he was just being polite and to us, and I've talked to Joanne about this as well, to us, that appears to be kind of mendacious duplicity. Like he's a liar. And I think he does bend the truth. He's economical with the truth

[00:07:44] Lindsay Chervinsky: (Laughs)

[00:07:44] Frank Cogliano: occasionally, but I think some of this is also his personality and the culture that produced him, that he's very uncomfortable with interpersonal conflict, which,

[00:07:54] Lindsay Chervinsky: yeah,

[00:07:54] Frank Cogliano: makes politics hard.

[00:07:55] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah,

I definitely want to get back to that. But I guess one question about, you know, so much of what we know about people is what is left to us, whether it's archeological materials whether it's material culture, whether it's the written record, and we've talked about how many thousands upon, thousands upon, thousands of letters that he wrote.

How much do you think that he burned?

[00:08:10] Frank Cogliano: That's a really good question. We know he burned the correspondence between himself and his wife.

[00:08:15] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:15] Frank Cogliano: So we've only got one or two of those letters that survive. He had a very keen archival instinct, however, and it seems that he kept most of the rest, but of course it's a, you're asking me to prove a negative.

I don't know what's,

[00:08:26] Lindsay Chervinsky: sure

[00:08:26] Frank Cogliano: what's not there.

[00:08:27] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah.

[00:08:27] Frank Cogliano: But he did keep. He kept a, you know, he's very, very meticulous when it comes to record keeping and he keeps this record called the Summary Journal of Letters, which is a register.

[00:08:36] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:36] Frank Cogliano: Of all the letters he received and sent. And so we do know because of that, the editors of the Jefferson papers know what's missing or at least

[00:08:43] Lindsay Chervinsky: interesting

[00:08:43] Frank Cogliano: that he recorded. That's missing.

[00:08:44] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah.

[00:08:44] Frank Cogliano: If you follow me. But again, apart from the correspondence with his wife Martha, which we know he destroyed, it's impossible to tell. It seems like a pretty thorough record because you know, not everything in the Jefferson papers is flatter.

[00:08:56] Lindsay Chervinsky: Nope.

So let's, I wanna circle back to the three things that you mentioned in terms of his creation of ideas and their broader impact.

Because oftentimes we measure leadership by what survives after you're gone. And, the Declaration of Independence, I have been making the argument in the last couple months as I've been talking about it, that it is in some ways for a domestic audience, an afterthought, because the war had been going on for over a year at that point.

But internationally, it is perhaps one of the most important American exports that we have ever produced. So could you just talk a little bit about the impact of the declaration, if you agree with my assumption about it domestically, but then also more broadly what that has meant.

[00:09:35] Frank Cogliano: Sure. I mean, domestically, Jefferson late in life said I was summing up the American spirit. So he was a little false modesty there, but he was saying, I was just expressing what was in the air as it were.

I think the international dimensions incredibly important, in two ways. First of all, and I know you know this, it's a diplomatic statement as well. It's saying to the world, but particularly France,

[00:09:55] Lindsay Chervinsky: mm-hmm.

[00:09:55] Frank Cogliano: We're open for business. We will,

[00:09:57] Lindsay Chervinsky: and we're not a threat

[00:09:58] Frank Cogliano: and we're, yeah, exactly. So we would like to engage in diplomatic relations with you and we won't stab you in the back.

We won't make peace with Britain and turn on you.

[00:10:06] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm. Which we did.

[00:10:06] Frank Cogliano: A peace of Paris a little,

(Both laugh)

but it's a statement that the colonies aren't going back. That in, declaring independence, the United States is joining the family of nations and will engage in diplomatic relations, particularly with European powers.

[00:10:20] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:20] Frank Cogliano: France, first and foremost. But the declaration is also important globally for the President. This is one of the earliest in the modern world independence movements, colonial independence movements, and the declaration will be incredibly important. And David Armitage showed this about 15 years ago in his global history.

The declaration is a model, for what many countries will do subsequently, and it's incredibly important that way. That's why next year's semi quincentennial is one of the reasons I think it's important that I hope isn't lost. Because there,

[00:10:49] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mmm.

[00:10:49] Frank Cogliano: I think there will be, as there was in 1976, during the bicentennial, there'll be a concentration on patriotism within the country and a celebration.

There's gonna be a lot of,

[00:10:56] Lindsay Chervinsky: mm-hmm.

[00:10:57] Frank Cogliano: Well, I don't have to tell you, there's gonna be a lot of hoopla celebration next year, and that's justified. But I hope we don't lose sight of the international dimension to that.

[00:11:05] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:05] Frank Cogliano: In part, I'm particularly interested in this as somebody who's a historian of the United States, and I'm an American, but happen to live outside of the country as well.

So I'm particularly attuned to this. And, I think the international dimension to the Declaration of Independence, most famously Ho Chi Minh quoted it.

[00:11:17] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:17] Frank Cogliano: But you know, he's not, not the only example, it's global importance. Is really, really important. The other thing that I think is interesting is one thing I think we'll see, we are seeing it, I know we're seeing it and we're seeing it in some of the books that are gonna come out in the next year.

It's much greater emphasis on that list of charges against the king.

[00:11:33] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:33] Frank Cogliano: This time around than there was 50 years ago.

[00:11:35] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:36] Frank Cogliano: Uh, during the bicentennial and listeners can reach their own conclusions as to why that may be. But we're paying a lot more attention to that kind of bill of indictment against George III.

That is the longest part of the declaration that at least when I was growing up.

[00:11:47] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah,

[00:11:47] Frank Cogliano: you mostly skipped that. You know, you read the,

[00:11:49] Lindsay Chervinsky: you read the beginning, you read the end, you kind of.

[00:11:50] Frank Cogliano: Right, you're like, okay, he's done that, this and that

[00:11:53] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah

[00:11:53] Frank Cogliano: and, and there lots of reasons for that, but I think that's interesting.

[00:11:57] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah. The documents are always incredibly illuminating and so everyone should go read. You have no excuse 'cause it's all over the internet.

[00:12:03] Frank Cogliano: Yep.

[00:12:03] Lindsay Chervinsky: Go read the grievances and, and acquaint yourself with them. So I think perhaps Jefferson's greatest contribution, or I guess the one that I like the best is his writing on religious freedom.

[00:12:13] Frank Cogliano: I agree.

[00:12:14] Lindsay Chervinsky: I think it is perhaps the most original and it is most at the heart of what we are. Can you tell us a little bit about what it is and its long-term impact?

[00:12:23] Frank Cogliano: Sure. So right after Congress adopted the Declaration of Independence in the summer of 1776, Jefferson returned to Virginia. And the reason he did that was because he believed the real action, the real contribution he could make, at least of course, there's the war going on.

[00:12:37] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:37] Frank Cogliano: And you folks at Mount Vernon are aware of that, but if that wasn't his strength, the real contribution he could make, and one of the immediate consequences of declaring independence was the need to draft new constitutions.

[00:12:47] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm

[00:12:47] Frank Cogliano: And he wanted to go back and help remake the laws and remake Virginia.

And he's put on a committee in the state government called the Committee for the Revisal of the Law, and he proposes, I think it's 178 new laws and the revisions of previous laws, as well as some new legislation. He proposes a bunch of things, a bill for education, for example, that would have if adopted, provided for universal education for all free white children, boys and girls in Virginia.

[00:13:13] Lindsay Chervinsky: Interesting.

[00:13:13] Frank Cogliano: The boys are gonna get more than girls.

[00:13:14] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yep.

[00:13:15] Frank Cogliano: Yeah, et cetera. But it wasn't adopted 'cause the legislature was too cheap to raise the taxes

[00:13:19] Lindsay Chervinsky: (Laughs)

[00:13:19] Frank Cogliano: for it. But he proposes a raft of legislative reforms, including a bill that will separate church and state, so it will disestablish the Anglican church.

[00:13:28] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:28] Frank Cogliano: The place of the Anglican church is complicated in this period because the head of the Anglican Church, is the King,

[00:13:34] Lindsay Chervinsky: and still is.

[00:13:36] Frank Cogliano: Yes, that's right. And so the status of the Anglican church is complicated as a result of independence.

[00:13:41] Lindsay Chervinsky: Thank you. Henry VIII.

[00:13:42] Frank Cogliano: Yep. But what Jefferson proposed, and it wasn't adopted till 1786, and his protege and friend James Madison is the guy who washes it through the legislature, adopts this bill, that removes the state support for the Anglican Church in Virginia, and it disestablishes the church.

This is the first time that happened in American history. It's the first time it happened in modern history. This is really important.

[00:14:05] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:05] Frank Cogliano: He's aware of it. He brags about it when he's in France in 1786.

Hey, look what we did. And I think, like you, if you study Jefferson, it can be a tough slog sometimes. He's not an uncomplicated figure for all kinds of reasons. When you get to, I think Jefferson on religion, we get good Jefferson as

[00:14:21] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah

[00:14:21] Frank Cogliano: I like to think of him. And the disestablishment of religion in Virginia is important for a couple of reasons.

One that I think is underappreciated is he does this with the support of Baptists and Quakers and Methodists and religious minorities in Virginia who don't like paying taxes to support the Anglican church.

[00:14:38] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:39] Frank Cogliano: And so we often see this, this has been interpreted as a step forward for secularism in America.

And that's a valid interpretation. I think that interpretation obscures the degree to which, people of faith supported this because they too thought, we don't want state religion.

[00:14:55] Lindsay Chervinsky: That's such an important point.

[00:14:56] Frank Cogliano: And so the separation of church and state in Jefferson's mind does two things. It keeps religion out of the state, but it also keeps the state out of religion.

[00:15:04] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:05] Frank Cogliano: And I think that's often lost in contemporary discussions about this. But he's incredibly proud of this achievement, as you noted. It's one of the three things on his tombstone along with the Declaration of Independence. And I think you could see that tombstone, I mean, he, put a lot of thought into this.

If the Declaration of Independence is about political freedom,

[00:15:23] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

And establishing Republican government and people's ability to govern themselves, the Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom is about freeing the mind.

Mm-hmm.

[00:15:31] Frank Cogliano: And freeing the mind from state interference and then the establishment of the University of Virginia. Is about developing the mind. I think, so, I think there's a kind of coherence to this.

[00:15:40] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting point. So let's talk about the University of Virginia. Why is that a new concept and what does it spark in the United States?

[00:15:47] Frank Cogliano: It's a secular institution. Although there's a chapel on grounds of the University of Virginia today, there was not when Jefferson designed those buildings, it's intended to be a secular institution.

Uh, this follows on from the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. It's also meant to be a modern institution in the sense that he's trying to recruit professors from Europe, from Oxford and Cambridge tries to recruit people from Edinburgh as well to go there. He wants the leading scholars from around the world to come here.

He wants it to be a, a kind of nursery for republicans, small r republicans, also large R Republicans. I'm just curious

(Both laugh)

'cause he's a little bit worried.

[00:16:20] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:21] Frank Cogliano: One of the problems he says is, when we send our smartest, young men up north to be educated, they come back Federalists

[00:16:27] Lindsay Chervinsky: (Laughs)

[00:16:27] Frank Cogliano: if they go to

[00:16:28] Lindsay Chervinsky: the horror.

[00:16:29] Frank Cogliano: Yes. Shock horror, you know, if they go to Yale or Harvard or what will become Princeton, their minds get corrupted. So he wants this to be a counterbalance to those institutions. To some extent, he achieved this. If we look at the two century history of it, it fails in the first instance because it basically in those first, couple of decades. It's a place where the Virginia Gentry go and hunt and fish and drink and gamble, and they don't reform very well. But in the long term, if we take the longer view, if you look at what the University of Virginia

[00:16:57] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm

[00:16:57] Frank Cogliano: is today, it's more or less fulfilling his mission. It's taken quite a while to get there, and of course, the University of Virginia truly became great, once it admitted women and desegregated. So these are people that he wasn't thinking about educating back in 1826.

[00:17:10] Lindsay Chervinsky: So the University of Virginia is designed with very high-minded principles, but also some of the more gutter principles, which is the party politics. So let's talk about Jefferson's role as party builder.

What did he do to build an opposition party, and why was he so good at it?

One of the points that came across in my conversation with Cogliano is that Jefferson's leadership style is not one that translates well to the modern day. He often acted in ways that now seem underhanded or even duplicitous, but Cogliano also emphasizes the ways in which he could be incredibly effective, particularly in his ability to network.

This skill is still important today, but it was even more crucial in Jefferson's time before, mass media fundamentally changed the way politics works.

[00:18:00] Frank Cogliano: Yeah. This is where we get sneaky Jefferson. (Laughs) Deceitful Jefferson. Depending on your perspective. I'm looking at my John Adams coll,

[00:18:08] Lindsay Chervinsky: (Laughs)

[00:18:08] Frank Cogliano: my John Adams colleague across the table from me.

[00:18:11] Lindsay Chervinsky: I would say this sneak. Well, I mean, given where we are, I would say starting as Secretary of State, you know, probably shouldn't build an opposition newspaper from the State Department, but I'm getting ahead of ourselves here.

[00:18:23] Frank Cogliano: We are getting ahead of ourselves slightly. Yeah. I'm not sure, I don't know who approves your expenses, Lindsay, but I know who approves mine and I'm not sure I could hire a clerk

(Both laugh)

to promote my political agenda from my budget if I were the Secretary of State, which is what he did.

Having said that,

[00:18:40] Lindsay Chervinsky: I don't think that would go over well.

[00:18:40] Frank Cogliano: Having said that, Hamilton's doing the same thing. This is whataboutism and I realize that's not necessarily a defense, but nobody knows, and your own work has shown this, we're without precedent here, nobody knows how a cabinet's supposed to operate.

[00:18:52] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:52] Frank Cogliano: And nobody knows how opposition is supposed to function. In fact, they don't think there's gonna be an opposition because they think they have a perfect system. And so, a lot of his actions, which to us, assuming a two party system and assuming that you're supposed to be loyal to the President, et cetera, et cetera, a lot of the things he does that we think are unseemly, were not necessarily, well, they were unseemly, (Both laugh) but they weren't unseemly for the reasons we think they were unseemly, if that makes sense.

[00:19:15] Lindsay Chervinsky: Sure, yes.

[00:19:15] Frank Cogliano: Does that make sense?

[00:19:16] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes.

[00:19:16] Frank Cogliano: And so, he's incredibly effective at networking. He's incredibly effective, you know, the room where it happens, he hosts a lot of dinners.

[00:19:25] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:25] Frank Cogliano: And that sociability, that's so important in Virginia, elite Virginia culture, really pays off with him. Washington's doing similar things in the way he operates the government during his presidency.

But you, you're having people over and you are meeting them, and you're talking to them, and he strongly believes that this is the way you can get things done. This is not, yet, a democracy in the way that we know it. So you're not trying to mobilize the people in the way that will become necessary.

[00:19:49] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:49] Frank Cogliano: By the 1830s.

[00:19:50] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:51] Frank Cogliano: You have to mobilize the congressman in your caucus, and he's very adept at that. Now, he knows the power of ideas, the fact that he hires Philip Freneau to edit a newspaper, to promote his political philosophy, is telling. So there is a recognition that you do have to communicate and mobilize the people.

As I said earlier, unlike Hamilton, he's not producing content for the newspapers.

[00:20:10] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:11] Frank Cogliano: He's very good at saying, Hey Lindsay, could you write an article about this? Yeah. It'll be great. (Laughs) And so, and again, to us that seems a little, not sneaky, but you know, come on, put yourself out there. And Madison does a lot of writing for him on his behalf, and he's very good at mobilizing people.

But he wouldn't be able to do that if people didn't find those ideas compelling.

[00:20:30] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:30] Frank Cogliano: Or weren't concerned about federalist overreach. There are genuine kind of philosophical differences between these two nascent political parties.

[00:20:37] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:37] Frank Cogliano: Calling them parties is always a little problematic.

[00:20:39] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:39] Frank Cogliano: As you know, but we'll call them parties, for lack of a better word.

There are genuine ideological differences between them, and he's good at articulating what those principles are, but he's also just very good at organizing them. He's quite adept as, as a party manager. What he does wouldn't work in the 1830s.

[00:20:53] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:54] Frank Cogliano: It wouldn't work in the 1970s, but it works in the 1790s for very effectively.

[00:20:59] Lindsay Chervinsky: I wanna highlight two things you said.

[00:21:00] Frank Cogliano: Sure.

[00:21:00] Lindsay Chervinsky: Because we don't often associate these qualities with leadership, or we don't necessarily rank them top of the list, but they're extremely important in this period, which is that the president or political figures, they didn't really have a bully pulpit like we would think of, of a Theodore Roosevelt or an FDR with a radio or something like that.

And so in that type of scenario, you know, when Jefferson had to give an inaugural address, he was not well suited because he was not a good orator, but in small groups he was incredibly effective. And so the ability to work a small room when that is what is required was essential.

[00:21:36] Frank Cogliano: Yes. And he's very good at that.

[00:21:37] Lindsay Chervinsky: And the second one was he had an ability to get people to say yes to things, (Laughs) especially James Madison. But you know, there are, there are times, and I'm sure you've had this experience too, where I'm reading these letters and the things he gets people to do. I'm like, how are you? How are you convincing them that this is what they should be doing?

[00:21:56] Frank Cogliano: (Laughs)

[00:21:56] Lindsay Chervinsky: So he must have been just like a total master manipulator.

[00:22:00] Frank Cogliano: Well, okay.

[00:22:00] Lindsay Chervinsky: I don't say that as necessarily a bad thing. And actually the politician that reminds me, we're getting off field here, but I have this theory that Jefferson and FDR are almost the same politician 200 years apart.

[00:22:12] Frank Cogliano: Oh, I like that. I,

[00:22:13] Lindsay Chervinsky: their skills are so similar.

[00:22:14] Frank Cogliano: That's, that's really, really interesting. Not least because they're both patricians as Democrats.

[00:22:20] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:20] Frank Cogliano: And patricians who become identified as the voice of the common man and women. Men and women.

[00:22:25] Lindsay Chervinsky: And also like impossible to get to know.

[00:22:27] Frank Cogliano: Right. Right.

[00:22:28] Lindsay Chervinsky: And would play people off of each other

[00:22:30] Frank Cogliano: and very charming.

[00:22:31] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes.

[00:22:32] Frank Cogliano: But using charm as a political

[00:22:33] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes.

[00:22:34] Frank Cogliano: Tool. I've written a little bit about FDR's admiration for Jefferson, but we need to develop this. I, (Laughs)

[00:22:39] Lindsay Chervinsky: stay tuned.

[00:22:39] Frank Cogliano: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do something like that. That's really, really interesting. Yes. He's incredibly persuasive. He's incredibly persuasive, and he's very, very good in small groups.

I would agree with both of those statements, and I think that's the key to his effectiveness as a political leader.

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[00:23:45] Lindsay Chervinsky: Now it was time to turn the conversation to the period of Jefferson's life, most conspicuously absent from his tombstone, his presidency.

So let's get to the, what we would consider to be the peak of political power or the pinnacle of political power, which is the presidency. At this point, he had been in the Virginia legislature. He had been Governor, he had been a diplomat, he had been Secretary of State. He had been a Vice President, albeit a slightly treasonous one, and then he becomes the third President of the United States. How does his presidential leadership manifest itself.

[00:24:18] Frank Cogliano: In a number of ways. I'm not sure treason, you and I have gone back and forth on this one.

We'll set that aside. That's for our second series.

(Both laugh)

He'd done all those things. He hadn't done them all well, and I think his tenure as Governor of Virginia is incredibly important for understanding as President.

[00:24:33] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm.

[00:24:33] Frank Cogliano: So if you

[00:24:34] Lindsay Chervinsky: say more,

[00:24:34] Frank Cogliano: indulge me for a second.

[00:24:35] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes.

[00:24:35] Frank Cogliano: Well, he was Governor of Virginia between 1779 and 1781.

He served three consecutive one year terms. The Virginia Constitution, which was adopted after independence, created a very weak executive. Because the revolutionaries were very concerned about executive power, both as it was exercised by the King, but also as it was exercised by various Royal Governors.

[00:24:53] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:53] Frank Cogliano: And so the first round of state constitutions often had weak executives, and Virginia had a plural executive. It had a single executive who acted as governor, but he was more, he was essentially a chairman of a committee.

[00:25:04] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:05] Frank Cogliano: His cabinet was actually quite powerful. Anyway, he was incredibly unfortunate because the War of Independence really came to Virginia in a big way.

In 1780 and 81 and the state was overrun by British forces. He did not acquit himself very well as governor. In part, he had a very weak hand. He played a weak hand badly.

[00:25:23] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:23] Frank Cogliano: As opposed to playing a weak hand well. But I think one of the lessons he learned from that was the importance of being decisive.

'Cause he was pretty indecisive in the early days of those British invasions of the state. And when he became president, he was much more decisive. And the two examples that I think come to mind and I've written a little bit about, one was the Barbary War.

[00:25:42] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-Hmm

[00:25:42] Frank Cogliano: The first Barbary War and his cabinet meets right after he's inaugurated in March of 1801, to decide in advance what to do in the event Tripoli declared war on the United States.

So they're not gonna wait for Tripoli

[00:25:55] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-Hmm

[00:25:56] Frank Cogliano: to do that. They're gonna be prepared, in anticipation of that. I think that he's quite decisive during the Barbary War, deploying the Navy that John Adams and the Federalists built, which he had opposed, but you know, deploying the Navy to protect American trade and interests in the Mediterranean.

And that with some setbacks basically worked for the United States. And the second, which is, probably better known to most listeners in response to the uh, Louisiana Treaty and the Louisiana purchase in 1803. When the Louisiana Treaty arrives in the United States in beginning of July, 1803, Jefferson Acts pretty decisively.

Then he spends some time in July 1803, trying to draft a amendment to the Constitution 'cause he's not entirely convinced that this is constitutional making this purchase. Madison says to him, look, we don't have time for this.

[00:26:39] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:40] Frank Cogliano: Because it will take too long to amend the Constitution. And the conclusion Jefferson reaches, which I think is sound, is if the Senate ratifies the treaty, which it did, and the house appropriates the money for the funding, that's the approval of the country.

[00:26:53] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-Hmm

[00:26:53] Frank Cogliano: That's how the system's supposed to work. He would've preferred a constitutional amendment, 'cause he had of course been a strict constructionist back when he was leading the opposition in the 1790s. But again, he recognized that when you're president you have to make decisions relatively quickly. And of course, that

time, what counts as quick in the eight, (Both laugh) in the first decade of the 19th century is nothing like today, but he's acting pretty decisively. And I think that he learned those leadership lessons from his earlier failure or earlier struggles. And I think to his credit, the ability to learn from one's mistakes.

[00:27:24] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:24] Frank Cogliano: And he was embarrassed about his tenure as Governor of Virginia till the day he died. He's trying to change Henry Lee's memoirs, (Both laugh) get his son to edit them in a more favorable way. In July of 1826, before he dies, uh, or June of 1826, I should say. So he's very, he's embarrassed about that. He's concerned about it.

[00:27:41] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:41] Frank Cogliano: But he did learn from it.

[00:27:42] Lindsay Chervinsky: One lesson I think he also maybe learned from, I'd be curious to know if you grew with this, was that he governed Virginia or he served as Governor in a very principled way. So he had sort of visions of what the governor should be based on what the state constitution was at the time, and he adhered to those principles even when perhaps the prudent course of action would've been to be more flexible with them and to take more control of executive power.

Now, good politicians sometimes have to be a little bit flexible with principles versus power, and not that we want someone to be totally violating a constitution, but, that flexibility, I think is required, especially in moments of crisis. And I think later, especially when it comes to the Louisiana purchase, he's much more willing to be a little bit more flexible with what executive power means.

Having experienced once what it meant to not do that.

[00:28:30] Frank Cogliano: Yes, I think that's right. I think that's right. I mean, one of the criticisms he subjected to a board of inquiry by the Virginia State government after his tenure as governor ended, and one of the suggestions at the time had been that he should have become a dictator. Now,

[00:28:43] Lindsay Chervinsky: mm-hmm.

[00:28:43] Frank Cogliano: They, the, the word dictator in that context was being drawn from classical history.

[00:28:48] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:48] Frank Cogliano: Antiquity. So it wasn't dictator as we have come to use it.

[00:28:51] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:51] Frank Cogliano: With the 20th century dictators in mind, but rather that, you know, in a time of crisis and there were precedents for this in Roman history, sometimes you have to take charge.

[00:28:59] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:59] Frank Cogliano: Then he refused to do that in 1781. He said, well, the Virginia Constitution doesn't allow me to do this, so I will not, I can't do it.

[00:29:06] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:07] Frank Cogliano: You are correct that, when it came to the Louisiana purchase in particular, he was a bit more flexible. Now, the important thing about the Louisiana purchase is, however, I do think that he did, he took some persuading and it helped that Madison person had a big hand in writing.

The Constitution said, actually, you can do this because the Senate has to approve the treaty and the house has to appropriate the money. He was more open or flexible then, but he did recognize that he couldn't do this on his own, that there had to be a kind of mechanism, there'd be some level of popular approval.

[00:29:37] Lindsay Chervinsky: That makes sense. So we talked a little bit about Jefferson's learning from mistakes, but everyone continues to make them and all Presidents make them. So what were his leadership failures as a President?

[00:29:48] Frank Cogliano: I think his biggest failure was the embargo.

[00:29:50] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:50] Frank Cogliano: The United States is caught between Britain and France in the first decade of the 19th century during Jefferson's presidency, and beyond. Basically, Britain and France are at war constantly between 1793 and 1815 with an occasional break. And the United States as the most important merchant trading nation in the North Atlantic is caught up in that. And both Britain and France seek to control American shipping. They basically say, you can trade with us, but you can't trade with them.

And the position of the United States says, no, we trade with everybody. We believe in free trade. It's incredibly lucrative for the United States, by the way.

[00:30:23] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:24] Frank Cogliano: But it does lead to occasional conflicts more often than not with Britain, than France, because after the Battle of Trafalgar, the Royal Navy is preeminent.

And so the United States and Britain are coming into constant conflict, which will culminate in the war of 1812. But late in Jefferson's presidency, there's an incident called the Chesapeake Leopard Affair, which takes place off the coast of Virginia and a Royal Navy ship. A British Royal Navy ship fires on an American US Navy ship, not a merchant ship, a US Navy ship killing several sailors.

There's a call for war in the United States of Jefferson. This is where he, similar to John Adams, 'cause there's a clamor for war in 1807. And if he had listened to that clamor, he probably would've been very popular. In the same way that Adams, during the quasi war, could have asked for a

[00:31:03] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm

[00:31:04] Frank Cogliano: declaration of war and got it.

That didn't come, but he proposed an embargo, which is basically that the United States would refuse to trade with anybody until its rights were respected and the embargo, economically and politically is a disaster for the United States. It's a disaster economically. It leads to widespread smuggling, for one thing. It leads to huge opposition to the government, especially in New England, in federalist dominated areas where the trade with Britain was most lucrative.

It doesn't work. And as soon as Madison was elected to succeed, Jefferson became president. In 1808, James Madison, he repealed the embargo or allowed it to expire.

[00:31:43] Lindsay Chervinsky: So is the embargo, is it a failure of imagination in that it, it's not understanding what the United States' role and its influence in the world was?

Was it a failure of, why, why was it a leadership failure?

[00:31:56] Frank Cogliano: Well, it was a failure. Whether it's a leadership failure is I'm gonna, slightly contradict myself here. He's got a weak hand to play. One of the challenges, and this is a challenge I find in teaching US history, US outside of the United States in particular, is one of the challenges he faces and one of the challenges we face in communicating with students and the public today is the United States is weak.

[00:32:16] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:17] Frank Cogliano: In 1807, it will become a power, but it's not a power yet. In fact, its power will be slow growing over the course of the 19th century. It doesn't really become a great power until the early 20th century, and so he doesn't have a lot of cards to play. I think he's playing a week hand here, and so to some extent I try to think, okay, what's the alternative?

Going to war in 1807?

[00:32:38] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:38] Frank Cogliano: Well, I actually think the embargo is a plan to get ready for war.

[00:32:41] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mmm

[00:32:42] Frank Cogliano: I think he wants to get American ships home so they won't be seized.

[00:32:45] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:45] Frank Cogliano: He has some faith in economic coercion because of what he learned during the boycotts and the run up to the revolution. The British are susceptible to this and maybe they'll respond, but he's not naive.

I think he recognized the United States doesn't have the naval capacity to fight Britain and it will acquit itself well during the war of 1812 and single ship actions.

[00:33:03] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:03] Frank Cogliano: But it doesn't challenge the supremacy

[00:33:05] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-Hmm

[00:33:05] Frank Cogliano: of the Royal Navy 'cause it can't. Whether it's a failure of leadership or it's simply a failure because the United States

[00:33:10] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm

[00:33:10] Frank Cogliano: is weak, is something we could discuss.

He was reasonably decisive. He believed in the economic coercion. He hoped it would work. It didn't. I'm not sure it's his fault that it didn't work.

[00:33:20] Lindsay Chervinsky: That poses a really interesting question about failures, especially in the presidency, because we often lay them at the feet of the people who are in the office, but sometimes the situation is such that there isn't actually a good option.

[00:33:31] Frank Cogliano: Other people act too, and other people have interests, you know? Ah.

[00:33:35] Lindsay Chervinsky: (Both laugh) Other empires do exist.

[00:33:37] Frank Cogliano: Yeah. They do stuff. And, and and Britain was, Britain and France were pretty powerful.

[00:33:42] Lindsay Chervinsky: Indeed. So you are here to talk tonight about your new book, A Revolutionary Friendship, which looks at Washington and Jefferson's friendship.

And miraculously, there hadn't been a book on the subject, I think. Because people tended to read the history backwards maybe, and they know where they ended. But it's a good lesson that there are a lot of books out there that people assume have been written until you go looking for them, and then they're not there.

So how did Washington and Jefferson approach leadership? In what ways were they similar? In what ways were they different? If you spent much time reading and thinking about the American founding era, you'll know that Washington and Jefferson had a difficult relationship, especially during and after Washington's presidency.

As we discuss here, they were very different men with different strengths. But Cogliano also emphasizes something that Jefferson himself eventually admitted. They agreed on more than they didn't.

[00:34:38] Frank Cogliano: Good question. I mean, Washington, he's a more skilled leader, I think, by almost every metric, except possibly the ideas.

[00:34:45] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:45] Frank Cogliano: Although, one of the things I learned in writing this book and reading a lot of Washington, having spent a lot of time reading Jefferson, I read a lot of Washington's writing is Washington's no dummy and he doesn't get enough credit as a thinker, but I think Jefferson does outscore him on. By that metric, but Washington, by almost all the other measures that we would use in the 18th century and beyond, seems to be a more effective leader.

Or he's a military hero, not just a military hero. He's a military leader. He's an effective military leader. I mean, I think he demonstrated that he's an incredibly important political leader because if a separation of church and state is Jefferson's great achievement, respect for civilian control in the military is Washington's.

[00:35:24] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:24] Frank Cogliano: Washington's greatest moment, in my view is in 1783 when he resigns his commission.

[00:35:28] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-Hmm

[00:35:28] Frank Cogliano: And no greater authority than George III said the same thing. So I think Washington's leadership and his moments of leadership, he ask occasional false steps are pretty impeccable, frankly. Jefferson's style is different.

One of the things that Washington did, and you know this better than me, 'cause you wrote the book on it, you know, in terms of the way his cabinet operated was he put good people in place and trusted them to do their jobs.

[00:35:52] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:52] Frank Cogliano: And they responded to that. So I expected, when I did the research for this book, oh, when we get to the French Revolution, that's gonna be a mess.

And the neutrality proclamation, it wasn't, they actually worked together very productively on that. I mean, Jefferson wrote most of the proclamation, but there's a lot of back and forth between them. They're having breakfasts,

[00:36:09] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm

[00:36:09] Frank Cogliano: they're talking about things. They're on the same page. And in part, I think that reflected one of Washington's strengths as a leader, which is, okay, you're the guy who gave this job to you, do it, and I'm trusting you to do it well.

Now Washington is the decider to use a term of a later period, but he trusted Jefferson and Hamilton to do their jobs. Didn't always work out as we know. One of the things they had in common was that persuasiveness, I think they both used sociability in different ways. Washington, he's less of a hail fellow well met.

[00:36:38] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:38] Frank Cogliano: You know, it's the famous story about Governor Morris.

[00:36:40] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:41] Frank Cogliano: Lapping him on the back, et cetera. Well, that story is whether true or not is famous because it tells us what it tells us about Washington.

[00:36:46] Lindsay Chervinsky: My favorite one is, when he was determined to make John Marshall run for Congress in 1798, and he had asked him and asked him and asked him, he said no.

And Marshall went to visit him and he had been for like two days, had kept after him, and Marshall kept saying no, and finally decided he couldn't say no anymore. And so he was gonna get up before dawn the next morning and basically sneak outta the house and leave before Washington had a chance to ask him one more time.

And he comes down the stairs and Washington is standing in the center hallway in full military uniform with his military sword and Marshall's like, oh. Fine. I'll do it. Fine.

[00:37:20] Frank Cogliano: (Laughs)

[00:37:21] Lindsay Chervinsky: Which I just love because you know, they, they know their strengths and they know how to get the Yes.

[00:37:25] Frank Cogliano: And Washington asked Jefferson to be Secretary of State, not once, not twice, but three times, and not unlike Marshall.

[00:37:31] Lindsay Chervinsky: And then made him stay.

[00:37:32] Frank Cogliano: Yep. This is not a guy who's used to asking people to do things more than once, unless he really wants them. And so that's testimony to what he saw in those stories in both Marshall and Jefferson. So he recognizes talent and he goes with it. I think Jefferson did as well. By the time Jefferson's becomes President, the cabinet is a very different thing.

As you,

[00:37:49] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm

[00:37:49] Frank Cogliano: again, you know this better than me. But he's identified people of talent. I think they share that in common. I think that one of the things that really came to me in the book, which I end with, is Jefferson's relationship with the posthumous Washington, because Jefferson outlives Washington, by 27 years, he serves as president from 1801 to 1809.

And during those years, I think he really realized, wow, this job is hard. And George Washington did it really, really well. And he doesn't quite say, you know, I was kind of bad, (Both laugh) you know, or maybe I could have been better, but, but he, he doesn't not say that he comes as close as he can to saying, you know, I might have overreacted a little bit.

And I think that the conclusion he reaches late in life. And he does this for the purposes of his own politics. Yes. But Joanne alerts us that he lies, but he doesn't always lie. I mean, sometimes we can believe what he says. He says, we agreed on much more than we disagreed on. And the really important stuff, the rule of law. The importance of the Constitution protecting American interests, we're on board. We agreed on those things, and I think that's important.

[00:38:48] Lindsay Chervinsky: That's so interesting because that later in life reflection is actually much more in line with, as you know, having gone through the letters, if you look at the records of the cabinet deliberations than Washington's decisions afterwards.

He sided with Jefferson almost 50% of the time.

[00:39:03] Frank Cogliano: Yep.

[00:39:04] Lindsay Chervinsky: Sometimes it almost feels like he's like, okay, today I do Jefferson. Tomorrow I do Hamilton, then I'll do Jefferson, then I'll do Hamilton. In the moment, Jefferson feels like he never wins and he's complaining that Hamilton controls Washington. But it's interesting that that reflection comes later that actually he was far more influential than he sometimes wanted to admit.

[00:39:21] Frank Cogliano: That's right. It drives Jefferson crazy that he agrees with the Hamilton on anything.

[00:39:25] Lindsay Chervinsky: (Both laugh) Yes,

[00:39:26] Frank Cogliano: and, and let's say Washington's a Federalist, Jefferson isn't.

[00:39:29] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah.

[00:39:29] Frank Cogliano: And this is something that Jefferson just

[00:39:31] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah.

[00:39:31] Frank Cogliano: Has trouble accepting. Now he,

[00:39:32] Lindsay Chervinsky: he's a mild federalist,

[00:39:33] Frank Cogliano: Right.

[00:39:34] Lindsay Chervinsky: I would say.

[00:39:34] Frank Cogliano: That's right. Yes, I agree. And when he says in his first inaugural, we are all Federalists, we are all Republicans.

He's realizing that, okay, not, that doesn't mean you're Hamilton.

[00:39:43] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:43] Frank Cogliano: That doesn't mean you're, a closet monarchist. He says some things in the heat of the moment that he regrets, but that's Jefferson's one of his flaws. But with time to reflect, he says, we agreed on more than we disagreed on. And you're right, the record shows that.

The record shows that.

[00:39:56] Lindsay Chervinsky: I'm so glad you brought up the inaugural address because I think this is a precedent that Jefferson established that is, it's often treated as a nice piece of rhetoric and it's a beautiful address, but the idea of extending an olive branch, the idea of trying to bring the American people together at this moment of inauguration, it hadn't really been done before because Adams succeeded Washington and that election was quite, the 1796,

[00:40:19] Frank Cogliano: Right.

[00:40:20] Lindsay Chervinsky: election was quite different than the 1800 election, but that is a revolutionary thing to do.

To try and put behind you the wounds of the election and bring people together. And it established an expectation that we have that presidents do that, and most have followed that precedent.

[00:40:36] Frank Cogliano: Yes. And you mentioned before that he was a terrible public speaker and he was. So the people who heard his, well, nobody heard it, or very few people actually heard it when he delivered his first inaugural address, but it was written to be published in the newspapers.

And I commend it to your listeners, read it. It's worth reading. It's beautiful. But it's also, it's one of his most important statements. That's where the ideas and the leadership come together actually. 'cause that's an important moment. That election of 1800 was incredibly contentious and there was a danger of possible civil war, certainly unrest, et cetera, et cetera.

Things didn't have to go that way. And so I think if we're thinking about moments of leadership that counts as one. And that's where his ideas and his actions did come together. That's one we probably should have spoken about more, I think. He showed real leadership, then.

[00:41:17] Lindsay Chervinsky: He did. Yeah. I think all was very nearly lost in that transition moment in 1801.

And I think there are a couple of key contributions that make it possible for the Constitution to continue. I think Adams contributed some, and that moment from Jefferson is huge.

[00:41:32] Frank Cogliano: Adams deserves credit for 1800 too and 1801, and I think he's wrongly criticized for this not going to the inauguration.

[00:41:39] Lindsay Chervinsky: I agree.

[00:41:39] Frank Cogliano: I, I, I,

[00:41:40] Lindsay Chervinsky: yes.

[00:41:41] Frank Cogliano: Because there was no precedent for that either.

[00:41:43] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes. Not till 1845.

[00:41:44] Frank Cogliano: Right. And I don't think, I mean, Adams could be grumpy.

[00:41:46] Lindsay Chervinsky: Oh yeah. He's definitely bitter about losing.

[00:41:48] Frank Cogliano: He was definitely bitter about losing, but this sort of, oh, he left in a snit, I think is unfair.

[00:41:53] Lindsay Chervinsky: Well, and I think we in the 21st century cannot possibly fathom how close they came to losing everything.

And I think that he genuinely thought that whereas Washington's presence had lent him credibility and stability and boosted his reputation. He worried that his presence would be a distraction.

[00:42:10] Frank Cogliano: Right.

[00:42:10] Lindsay Chervinsky: And would make it harder to turn the page and you know, he lost and he went home in the age of Napoleon.

That's not nothing.

[00:42:16] Frank Cogliano: No, I agree with you. I think John Adams gets a bad rap on that.

[00:42:19] Lindsay Chervinsky: We can agree on that.

[00:42:19] Frank Cogliano: (Laughs)

[00:42:20] Lindsay Chervinsky: We can agree on Jefferson's inaugural. Excellent. Okay, so. We could talk about this for five more hours, but I think our podcast listeners might turn off the program. So we always ask two final questions, and you've talked a lot about Washington's leadership, but I would love to know when you think of Washington and leadership, what that means to you.

[00:42:36] Frank Cogliano: Oh, well, as I said a few minutes ago, Washington's belief in the importance of civilian control of the military. The fact that Washington did not become a man on horseback is incredibly important. That's the moment, that's his greatest moment in a career filled with high points, few low points, but I think that was where he showed incredible leadership to his contemporaries and the legacy that established.

You know, long may it continue.

[00:43:00] Lindsay Chervinsky: I think that's one of two fundamental pillars of what it means to be a republic. The first is civilian control of the military. The second is peaceful transfer of power.

[00:43:08] Frank Cogliano: Right. It's the rule of law.

[00:43:09] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yep. Absolutely.

[00:43:09] Frank Cogliano: And they both agree on that.

[00:43:10] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes. And the last thing is if you could recommend a book to your leaders from which you learned something about leadership.

Could be history, could be a leadership book, could be poetry, if that's so inspires you.

[00:43:21] Frank Cogliano: Okay. Now you told me this before we went on the air, so I've been thinking about it while speaking. Can I give you three?

[00:43:25] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes.

[00:43:25] Frank Cogliano: Is actually,

[00:43:26] Lindsay Chervinsky: that's such a historian.

[00:43:29] Frank Cogliano: I'm very, very sorry. Okay. I think Robert Caro's biography, all the volumes, so that's cheating.

But his biographies of Lyndon Johnson are all about leadership of the deployment of power. Those are amazing. So that's one. So I'm really am cheating, I'm I, I,

[00:43:41] Lindsay Chervinsky: master of the Senate, I think.

[00:43:42] Frank Cogliano: Yes. The best. Yeah. Master. I agree. And we eager await the final volume. So that would be one. And these are not in any particular order.

A book I read that was incredibly important to me in becoming the historian of this period and introducing this period to me and made me think about leadership. In the coming of the revolution, Johnny Tremain.

[00:43:58] Lindsay Chervinsky: Fascinating. No one has said that. Okay. That's a first.

[00:44:01] Frank Cogliano: Okay.

[00:44:01] Lindsay Chervinsky: Excellent.

[00:44:02] Frank Cogliano: So, and you said I could do poetry.

So I would say the Illiad.

[00:44:06] Lindsay Chervinsky: That is a very diverse selection. (Laughs) Love it. Love it. Okay. Well readers, you then have your reading assignments for the next decade, but that's okay. That will be great. And will add to your bookshelves. Thank you so much for being here, Frank. It was such a delight to chat with you.

[00:44:20] Frank Cogliano: My pleasure, Lindsay, as always.

[00:44:24] Lindsay Chervinsky: Thank you for joining us this week on Leadership and Legacy, and thank you so much again to our guest, Frank Cogliano. You can find his book, A Revolutionary Friendship, Washington Jefferson and the American Republic, wherever you buy your books. I'm your host, Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky.

Leadership and Legacy Conversations at the George Washington Presidential Library is a production of the Mount Vernon Ladies Association and Primary Source Media. In the spirit of George Washington's leadership, we feature the perspectives of leaders from across industries and fields. As such, the thoughts expressed in this podcast are solely the views of our guests and do not reflect the opinions of the Mount Vernon Ladies Association.

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