Why Venus May Have Lost Its Moon Forever

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Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is

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Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy and space

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science and dogs and cats living together and

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just about anything, really. There's no topic

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that is, uh, ever, um, ignored.

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Even when you don't want us to talk about it,

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we'll talk about it.

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Actually, we've got one of those storeys in

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this episode. Uh, not the first one, though,

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because we're going to discuss Venus. Now, in

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many ways, Venus is just like Earth, except

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for one striking difference. Aside from the

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weather, it doesn't have a moon. Why not?

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Well, um, yeah, there's probably a very

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dark reason for that. Uh, satellite

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pollution. Uh, we're not talking about

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satellites in orbit polluting, uh, our

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skies and making life for astronomers very

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difficult. We're talking about when they come

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back into the atmosphere and literally

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pollute our, uh, atmosphere. We'll see

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what's going on there.

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And the United States Space

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Force uniforms have been unveiled. At

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least one concept, and it's got some tongues

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wagging, some wiggling and some people

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scratching their heads. We'll talk about all

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of that on this episode of space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3, 2. 1, 2, 3, 4,

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5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

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Andrew Dunkley: Space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And he's back. Once again, it's Professor

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Fred Watson Watson, Astronomer at large.

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Hello, Fred Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, hello, Andrew. You mean we're not going

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to cover migraines again this week or.

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Andrew Dunkley: Why not? We can do that if you like. We've

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talked about that before.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, yeah, yeah, we did.

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Andrew Dunkley: I mean, we've reached that age where the

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first topic, because I'm the captain of

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the veteran golfers at our local

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club and, um,

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the first topic, whenever you sit down, is,

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um, your health. And what have you had done

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this week?

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, yes, I'm sure that's right,

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because I'm a little bit older than you, my

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topics are even more interesting. So I was at

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a presentation last night where they were

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talking about coffins, uh, made out of

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mushroom fibre.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, my goodness. Yeah,

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okay, that is different.

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Professor Fred Watson: It's different. Yeah, different. But

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apparently it works.

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Andrew Dunkley: Well, it'd be a lot cheaper, wouldn't it?

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, they don't last very long. Two days, I

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think, is the time it takes to decay.

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Andrew Dunkley: Wow.

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Professor Fred Watson: No, actually, I think it might be a bit

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longer than that.

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Professor Fred Watson: Very.

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Professor Fred Watson: Ah, interesting presentation, though, on, um,

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the. From the Symbioscene

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Institute, uh, which is looking

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at the ways that humankind can live

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more comfortably with its own planet

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rather than being the terrible Colonial

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um, species that we've been to date.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. The problem with that is you've got to

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get everyone to agree.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, exactly. That was going to be my

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point which I never really got to raise.

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Andrew Dunkley: People come up with all these wonderful ideas

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about how we can do things right. But, and

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you know, some countries will go, well, you

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know, we don't want to do that. So we're not.

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Professor Fred Watson: So I think um, just as, as an idea though and

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as a concept, I think this has

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much to uh, um, approve

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of and it, and the reason what took me

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there was um. Marnie was part of a panel

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discussion yesterday.

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Excuse me, I'm sorry, sorry Marnie, I sneezed

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in the middle of your promo there. She was

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part of a panel discussion, uh, which one of

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the other guests was, was an

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advocate, in fact the founder of the

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Symbiosine Institute.

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Andrew Dunkley: Well I think if you go to um,

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try to make those kinds of changes in

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the psyche of humanity, it's going to be

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a multi generational approach.

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It's not going to be something we all just go

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to do the next day. Okay, we're

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now doing this. It just wouldn't

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happen.

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Professor Fred Watson: No, you're right, humans don't work that way.

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But uh, hopefully with

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enough panic from climate

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change, some things will change.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, certainly needs to happen that way.

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Professor Fred Watson: Indeed.

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Andrew Dunkley: Shall we get down to business?

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, why not?

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Andrew Dunkley: All right, our very first question uh,

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is focusing um, on our uh,

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twin planet. Um, when we say twin,

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we're the good twin, it's the evil twin.

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We're talking about Venus. Uh, I mean

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size wise it's similar to Earth. In fact

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everything about it is similar to Earth.

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Size, mass, gravity, that kind of thing.

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Except it's got a God awful

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weather pattern and it doesn't have a

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moon. And that's the subject of this

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particular storey because they're trying to

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figure out why.

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Professor Fred Watson: Indeed. That's right. Uh, yes. Often referred

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to as Earth's ugly sister because of all the

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things that you've mentioned, the

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similarities and um, as we're

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recording it's very prominent in our evening

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skies at the moment. Really can't fail to see

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the planet Venus as it uh, approaches its

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greatest distance from the sun. Greatest

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angular distance from the sun. In fact it may

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even have passed it. I've kind of lost track

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with my confinement to hospitals and things

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of that sort recently. Uh, but it is still

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very spectacular in the evening sky. Anyway,

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a planet about the size of ours, uh,

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of which we know a lot um, thanks

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to orbiting spacecraft which have Carried

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with them radar, uh, uh, equipment in

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order to be able to map m the surface.

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Because the atmosphere of course is largely

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opaque, uh you can penetrate the

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atmosphere down to surface in infrared. That

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was done actually by one of my former

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colleagues at the Anglo Australian Telescope,

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David Allen, back in the 1990s I

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think, or maybe 1980s using infrared

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uh radiation managed to see the surface of

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Venus which is quite a uh, spectacular

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outcome. Um, but the best way to do it

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is with radar and from that we can see the

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topography.

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This jury I think is still out on whether

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uh Venus has plate tectonics because we see

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conflicting results. Uh, but

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the one thing that we do know for absolute

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certain uh, is that it doesn't have a moon.

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Um, uh, Mercury and Venus, the only two

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planets in the solar system that do not

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have satellites, at least do not have

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natural satellites. Um

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so the question that you would ask as a

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scientist is that significant is

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that um, you know, is

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it just happen, just the fact that

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the planet happens not to have a moon

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or whether it is a uh,

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situation where Venus once did have a

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moon. Um, given that moons are pretty common

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throughout the solar system, perhaps uh,

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there was a similar formation event to the

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event that formed our moon when uh, Theia,

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the object size of Mars clouted the Earth in

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the early history of the solar system and

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eventually that coalesced to form the moon

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which uh, both way. I read a headline not

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very long ago that looks as though that

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formation of the moon from that debris cloud

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might have happened very very quickly. And I

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can't remember how quickly it was but it was

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surprisingly quickly. You might have seen

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that too I

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Andrew Dunkley: think uh, Jonty and I did actually do that

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Storey.

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Professor Fred Watson: Okay, great.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, um, so uh,

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yeah I was trying to find it actually through

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my notes. M seen my notes.

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These are all past episodes, all my notes.

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Professor Fred Watson: But I could have nicely filed Ye

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Andrew Dunkley: it's just a neat pile. It's not file

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uh, but um, I couldn't find it. But yeah, I

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was trying to remember what we did about

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Venus previously and that was it.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, okay. Anyway,

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um, yes, so Venus may have had the same

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experience. Uh what uh,

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would have happened though if uh, Venus had

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had a moon? Why isn't it there now? And

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so this is the uh

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thesis of ah, a group of scientists

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um led by um, Stephen Cain who's at

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the University of California Riverside. Uh

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he uh and his colleagues

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have looked to see you know

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what might have happened had Venus had

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a moon. So it's all done by modelling of

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course, um,

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their Comments more or less, as we've just

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related, uh, this is a comment from Stephen.

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Venus undoubtedly experienced large impacts

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just as as Earth has and so has had

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m as much if not more opportunity to form

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a moon similar to what we see in our own

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skies.

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So, all right, put a moon there in your

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modelling um, and see

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what happens. And this is the

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interesting bit because um,

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there is a really very neat

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explanation for why Venus doesn't have a

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moon. That comes almost straight

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out of the modelling. Uh, and it's all about

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what the they describe as the gravitational

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tug of war between Venus, a

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hypothetical moon and the sun. And

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if you track this over billions of years,

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what you get is a situation

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opposite to what we've got on um,

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planet Earth. And that is that

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the laws of physics dictate uh, that

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because um, there is

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basically an impulse given to the moon

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from the Earth's rotation slowing down,

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uh, it means the moon is drifting away from

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Earth. And that's um, something we've

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talked about, it's well known, well

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established, one of those phenomena that

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we recognise as being scientific facts.

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But uh, what they

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found, what these researchers found when they

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put the same sort of analysis into Venus and

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a moon, uh, the moon would go the other way.

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Uh, it would basically eventually,

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um, it would start to drift

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inwards towards Venus

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and spiral towards the

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planet, eventually passing within the

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Roche limit, which is where you can't have

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something uh, staying together because of the

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competing gravitational pull on one side and

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the other what we call the tidal effect.

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So it would break up, um, and

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uh, even a

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big moon, uh, would not

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necessarily survive.

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Uh, in fact one of the comments that Stephen

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Kane makes is an interesting aspect is that a

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heavier moon is destroyed faster since

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a massive moon would drain Venus's spin so

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efficiently that it hastens its destruction.

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Uh, and so um, that

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is the basic outcome of

265
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this work. I um, think

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in uh, fact I'm sure that they looked

267
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at a whole variety these

268
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researchers of different scenarios. Uh,

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and one of the questions they addressed was

270
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are there any circumstances under which a

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Venusian m moon could actually survive?

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And the comments that Stephen, uh, Kane made

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on this are uh, survival came down to two

274
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main things. Venus had to be

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spinning fast when the moon formed

276
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with a day shorter than about 12 hours. And

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the moon couldn't be too massive up to

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roughly the mass of our own moon. In that

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narrow window, the moon migrates outwards and

280
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stabilises much as the Earth did. Outside

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that range, the moon is unfortunately

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doomed to be consumed by Venus.

283
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So a Surviving moon would have to be

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modest in size, orbiting a rapidly spinning

285
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early Venus, which are conditions that don't

286
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match what we think the early Venus was

287
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actually like.

288
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Uh, and so, you know, the

289
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upshot of this is,

290
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um, maybe indeed Venus did

291
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have a moon, which eventually was

292
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essentially gobbled up by Venus. It was

293
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drifted inwards, uh, was torn apart and the

294
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debris essentially rained down on the planet.

295
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Um, the

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next step would be essentially

297
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to look for any, what you might

298
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call geological evidence,

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uh, on Venus that would

300
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give you some

301
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hints that this is what happened. Uh,

302
00:12:52.710 --> 00:12:54.080
forgive me, Andrew, because I think I'm about

303
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to sneeze.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I've been fighting one for the last few

305
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minutes too.

306
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Professor Fred Watson: Why are we both sneezing? It's the time of

307
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year. That's right. Uh, let me, um, quote

308
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again, uh, Stephen Cain. Uh,

309
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finding direct observational evidence is

310
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pretty tough. A moon lost billions

311
00:13:12.420 --> 00:13:14.580
of years ago would leave little to no direct

312
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trace we can point a telescope at today

313
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so we can't observe the event itself.

314
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However, there are indirect avenues. For

315
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example, if a moon was destroyed

316
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and its debris rained down on Venus, it could

317
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have left a chemical fingerprint in the

318
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planet's surface or atmosphere. And upcoming

319
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missions to Venus, including NASA's da

320
00:13:35.940 --> 00:13:38.540
Vinci, uh, will measure the

321
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atmospheric composition in detail. So it is

322
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possible, uh, that we might eventually, um,

323
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find something. Uh, one other comment from

324
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Stephen Cain is there's a broader test beyond

325
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our solar system because our results predict

326
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that slowly rotating Venus, like planets

327
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around other stars, should generically

328
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lack large moons. So as astronomers

329
00:14:00.920 --> 00:14:03.360
begin searching for moons around exoplanets,

330
00:14:03.520 --> 00:14:06.040
that's a prediction that can eventually be

331
00:14:06.040 --> 00:14:09.000
checked against real data. Uh, so, yeah, it's

332
00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.320
very, very nice piece of work. Uh, I think a

333
00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:13.120
very interesting outcome as well.

334
00:14:13.670 --> 00:14:16.070
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, and it sort of harps back to a storey

335
00:14:16.710 --> 00:14:19.630
from a few weeks ago about, uh, how they

336
00:14:19.630 --> 00:14:22.390
do think they have found continental size

337
00:14:24.150 --> 00:14:26.390
anomalies, um, deep in our

338
00:14:26.790 --> 00:14:29.750
crust that suggests parts of Theia

339
00:14:29.750 --> 00:14:30.150
exist.

340
00:14:30.150 --> 00:14:32.230
Professor Fred Watson: Might be parts of Theia. That's right, yes,

341
00:14:32.230 --> 00:14:33.190
indeed. Yeah.

342
00:14:33.190 --> 00:14:35.670
Andrew Dunkley: So, yeah, then you can draw a similarity

343
00:14:35.670 --> 00:14:37.470
there. And so, yeah, there probably is

344
00:14:37.470 --> 00:14:40.200
evidence if that's indeed what happened. But,

345
00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:41.800
yeah. Ah, how do you find it?

346
00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:45.870
Professor Fred Watson: Well, um, we're very, uh, resourceful, uh,

347
00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:47.860
in that regard, I think. I think, um,

348
00:14:48.280 --> 00:14:50.040
scientists, particularly astronomers, because

349
00:14:50.040 --> 00:14:51.240
they, you know, they've got.

350
00:14:52.760 --> 00:14:55.120
All they've got is what comes in, usually on

351
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:57.400
electromagnetic radiation, apart from a few

352
00:14:57.560 --> 00:15:00.360
satellites going here and there. Uh, but,

353
00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:02.520
yes, um, uh,

354
00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:06.050
uh, I think we might well

355
00:15:06.210 --> 00:15:08.490
get some hints as to whether this has

356
00:15:08.490 --> 00:15:09.730
happened in the past or not.

357
00:15:09.890 --> 00:15:12.810
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Okay. Uh if you'd like to read up

358
00:15:12.810 --> 00:15:15.770
on that storey uh great article@spare.com or

359
00:15:15.770 --> 00:15:18.770
you can uh see the pre peer

360
00:15:18.770 --> 00:15:21.010
reviewed paper on the repository site

361
00:15:21.090 --> 00:15:23.930
arXiv. This is space Nuts with Andrew

362
00:15:23.930 --> 00:15:25.890
Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson Watson.

363
00:15:28.290 --> 00:15:31.090
Professor Fred Watson: Roger, you're lots Space Nuts.

364
00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:34.280
Andrew Dunkley: Okay, let's uh get close to

365
00:15:34.520 --> 00:15:37.040
home. In fact uh, we're getting right down

366
00:15:37.040 --> 00:15:39.400
and dirty into our own atmosphere with this

367
00:15:39.400 --> 00:15:41.560
storey and it's got to do with satellite

368
00:15:41.560 --> 00:15:44.040
pollution. Now the number of satellites that

369
00:15:44.040 --> 00:15:46.360
are starting to appear in our sky is

370
00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:49.880
somewhat um, disturbing when it comes to

371
00:15:50.150 --> 00:15:52.880
um optical astronomy. In fact I

372
00:15:52.880 --> 00:15:55.560
saw a photo the other day where this problem

373
00:15:55.560 --> 00:15:58.400
was exhibited. Uh where they'd done a little

374
00:15:58.400 --> 00:16:01.160
bit of time lapse and the

375
00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:04.020
satellite that image were

376
00:16:04.100 --> 00:16:07.100
horrifying. Uh if you're an astronomer they

377
00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:08.980
were probably really interesting for

378
00:16:09.860 --> 00:16:12.740
other people. But uh, it looked the same as

379
00:16:12.870 --> 00:16:15.860
um the contrails that you see

380
00:16:15.860 --> 00:16:18.340
airliners leaving the sky. Um

381
00:16:19.059 --> 00:16:21.900
but it was actually the light reflection

382
00:16:21.900 --> 00:16:24.780
images of the uh satellites. But the

383
00:16:24.780 --> 00:16:26.420
other problem with them is when they come

384
00:16:26.420 --> 00:16:29.300
back down uh, they burn up and

385
00:16:29.300 --> 00:16:31.860
what happens to all that stuff? And that's

386
00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:33.860
the nuts and bolts of this storey.

387
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:36.480
They've chased a couple down to try and

388
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:39.040
figure out what happens to you know

389
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:41.440
everything that burns off them.

390
00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:44.880
Professor Fred Watson: Exactly. So and um, it is a

391
00:16:45.050 --> 00:16:47.440
um. This uh essentially

392
00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.880
experiment is very well timed because at the

393
00:16:49.880 --> 00:16:52.320
moment we're with the Starlink

394
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.600
constellation which I think is kind of

395
00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:56.790
already past 12,000 spacecraft. Uh

396
00:16:58.160 --> 00:17:00.680
not all of them functioning. Um

397
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.840
those are re entering at about one a day.

398
00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:06.940
That's the current rate. And every time one

399
00:17:06.940 --> 00:17:09.620
of those re uh enters the atmosphere it burns

400
00:17:09.620 --> 00:17:12.100
up at about 90 kilometres or thereabouts

401
00:17:12.740 --> 00:17:15.380
above the Earth's surface and its

402
00:17:15.780 --> 00:17:18.700
contents, its metallic contents become part

403
00:17:18.700 --> 00:17:21.540
of the upper atmosphere. Uh and we

404
00:17:21.540 --> 00:17:24.180
already are seeing um, higher levels of

405
00:17:24.260 --> 00:17:26.180
certain oxides of aluminium and things of

406
00:17:26.180 --> 00:17:26.740
that sort.

407
00:17:26.830 --> 00:17:29.580
Uh uh that are probably the result of

408
00:17:29.580 --> 00:17:32.580
these uh reentering satellites. So

409
00:17:33.230 --> 00:17:35.770
uh, the European Space

410
00:17:36.010 --> 00:17:38.250
Agency uh has

411
00:17:39.130 --> 00:17:41.610
I uh think uh in

412
00:17:41.610 --> 00:17:44.050
collaboration with a number of other

413
00:17:44.050 --> 00:17:46.730
organisations. Uh what they've done

414
00:17:46.810 --> 00:17:49.290
is they have decided that they're going to

415
00:17:49.290 --> 00:17:52.290
cheque this out directly. And the way they've

416
00:17:52.290 --> 00:17:55.290
done that is by hiring a private jet as

417
00:17:55.290 --> 00:17:58.170
you do. Um and it's

418
00:17:59.290 --> 00:18:01.730
using uh, that uh private jet. They've

419
00:18:01.730 --> 00:18:04.570
basically chased a pair of reentering

420
00:18:04.570 --> 00:18:07.390
satellites. Um both were due to re

421
00:18:07.390 --> 00:18:10.120
enter uh at about the same um

422
00:18:10.470 --> 00:18:13.470
place I think a day apart. Um and so

423
00:18:13.470 --> 00:18:15.190
what they've done is um, actually

424
00:18:16.150 --> 00:18:18.950
basically followed these In a jet which

425
00:18:18.950 --> 00:18:21.080
is festooned with uh

426
00:18:21.080 --> 00:18:23.830
spectrometers, images, uh and

427
00:18:23.830 --> 00:18:26.710
all of the equipment that we use to try

428
00:18:26.710 --> 00:18:29.710
and learn about what's happening when

429
00:18:29.710 --> 00:18:32.430
things burn up in space. Uh and

430
00:18:32.430 --> 00:18:35.190
so uh, um essentially

431
00:18:35.450 --> 00:18:38.130
uh the satellites tracked

432
00:18:38.250 --> 00:18:41.090
uh in detail uh I like

433
00:18:41.450 --> 00:18:44.410
um the spacecraft that

434
00:18:44.410 --> 00:18:47.050
they chose because there was a constellation

435
00:18:47.050 --> 00:18:49.450
called Cluster which I think we might have

436
00:18:49.450 --> 00:18:51.530
talked about many years ago. A European Space

437
00:18:51.530 --> 00:18:54.130
Agency constellation which had four

438
00:18:54.370 --> 00:18:57.250
individual spacecraft uh which

439
00:18:57.250 --> 00:18:59.970
were named after well known

440
00:18:59.970 --> 00:19:02.330
dances, Tango, samba, rumba and

441
00:19:02.330 --> 00:19:03.010
Salsa.

442
00:19:03.450 --> 00:19:06.020
Uh were the quartet of uh the Cluster

443
00:19:06.570 --> 00:19:09.370
spacecraft and they actually were studying

444
00:19:09.690 --> 00:19:12.290
the way the Earth's magnetic field uh

445
00:19:12.650 --> 00:19:15.570
interacts with the solar wind. And they were

446
00:19:15.570 --> 00:19:17.530
launched back in I think back in the 90s.

447
00:19:17.610 --> 00:19:20.170
It's a long, long time ago. But their

448
00:19:20.330 --> 00:19:22.650
orbits um were

449
00:19:23.210 --> 00:19:26.090
decaying and in fact uh, Rumba and Salsa

450
00:19:26.170 --> 00:19:29.130
I think decayed quite some time ago. So what

451
00:19:29.450 --> 00:19:32.450
was uh in question here was since

452
00:19:32.450 --> 00:19:34.290
they you know these spacecraft are still

453
00:19:34.290 --> 00:19:36.530
sending telemetry back so you know what their

454
00:19:36.530 --> 00:19:39.390
velocity is, you when and where these things

455
00:19:39.390 --> 00:19:41.870
are going to re. Enter the atmosphere. Uh and

456
00:19:41.870 --> 00:19:44.550
it was Tango and Samba which

457
00:19:44.630 --> 00:19:47.330
were basically uh,

458
00:19:47.490 --> 00:19:50.310
um they had controlled RE entry and

459
00:19:50.630 --> 00:19:53.510
it was basically that re entry that was uh

460
00:19:53.510 --> 00:19:56.410
observed by this mission using ah

461
00:19:56.790 --> 00:19:59.030
a chaser jet, if I can put it that way

462
00:19:59.930 --> 00:20:02.810
uh over the South Pacific Ocean. So

463
00:20:02.810 --> 00:20:05.550
uh, what we've seen I think is that this was

464
00:20:05.550 --> 00:20:07.970
successful. There's been um

465
00:20:09.030 --> 00:20:11.750
a bit of a report saying that um

466
00:20:12.290 --> 00:20:14.770
the outcome of the experiment was successful

467
00:20:14.770 --> 00:20:16.530
and that they got the data that they wanted.

468
00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:19.090
I'm uh not sure whether we yet have the

469
00:20:19.090 --> 00:20:21.370
details of what that

470
00:20:21.370 --> 00:20:24.210
analysis was, you know in terms of

471
00:20:24.530 --> 00:20:27.210
what the exact uh effects on the

472
00:20:27.210 --> 00:20:30.050
atmosphere and the byproducts that

473
00:20:30.050 --> 00:20:32.530
came from uh the reentry of these two

474
00:20:32.530 --> 00:20:33.090
spacecraft.

475
00:20:33.090 --> 00:20:35.250
So I think those results are still yet

476
00:20:36.350 --> 00:20:38.450
uh to be described but at least the

477
00:20:38.450 --> 00:20:40.750
experiments are worked. Uh apparently there

478
00:20:40.750 --> 00:20:43.630
were eight scientists on board this aircraft

479
00:20:43.630 --> 00:20:46.590
and they um observed

480
00:20:46.910 --> 00:20:49.870
the satellites from about 90 kilometres

481
00:20:49.870 --> 00:20:52.670
down to something like 65 to

482
00:20:52.670 --> 00:20:54.910
70 kilometres when they stopped, basically

483
00:20:54.910 --> 00:20:57.710
stopped burning up. Uh so

484
00:20:58.030 --> 00:21:00.990
they were then completely vaporised. Uh so

485
00:21:00.990 --> 00:21:03.870
these details uh as I said we hope we will

486
00:21:03.870 --> 00:21:06.430
find a little bit more uh as the results

487
00:21:06.830 --> 00:21:09.630
come from that group of

488
00:21:09.630 --> 00:21:11.250
scient, they've

489
00:21:11.250 --> 00:21:13.690
Andrew Dunkley: finished analysing the data and

490
00:21:14.010 --> 00:21:16.770
start uh publishing uh it could

491
00:21:16.770 --> 00:21:18.570
turn into something quite controversial

492
00:21:18.570 --> 00:21:21.450
because if they reveal that there's some

493
00:21:21.770 --> 00:21:24.330
really nasty stuff coming out of all of this,

494
00:21:24.650 --> 00:21:26.530
you know a handful of satellites doing this

495
00:21:26.530 --> 00:21:29.170
probably no big deal but we're going to be

496
00:21:29.170 --> 00:21:31.770
talking over decades to come

497
00:21:32.330 --> 00:21:35.290
tens of thousands burning up,

498
00:21:35.610 --> 00:21:36.350
probably more.

499
00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:39.700
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. When it's one a day, uh, which it is

500
00:21:39.700 --> 00:21:41.980
now, then, uh, you're potentially in trouble.

501
00:21:41.980 --> 00:21:43.940
And you're absolutely right, Andrew, because

502
00:21:44.500 --> 00:21:46.660
one of the possibilities is something

503
00:21:47.620 --> 00:21:50.540
we thought we'd licked back in the 1980s, and

504
00:21:50.540 --> 00:21:53.500
that's ozone depletion. Um, that's one

505
00:21:53.500 --> 00:21:56.340
of the possible outcomes of this. And that

506
00:21:56.340 --> 00:21:58.740
would then become a really hot political

507
00:22:00.100 --> 00:22:02.900
hot potato politically. Uh, given

508
00:22:02.980 --> 00:22:04.940
that you've now got people saying, well,

509
00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:06.540
we've got all these pollutants that are

510
00:22:06.540 --> 00:22:08.250
actually starting to affect the behaviour of

511
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:10.320
the upper atmosphere. And on the other side

512
00:22:10.320 --> 00:22:11.640
of the coin, you've got people saying, well,

513
00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:13.480
we need Starlink because it's actually a

514
00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:15.920
vital, uh, service, it's vital

515
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:18.480
infrastructure now on so many fronts. You've

516
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:20.560
got a really quite interesting situation

517
00:22:20.560 --> 00:22:21.600
emerging, I think.

518
00:22:21.760 --> 00:22:22.480
Andrew Dunkley: Sure have.

519
00:22:22.800 --> 00:22:23.200
Professor Fred Watson: And,

520
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:25.440
Andrew Dunkley: yeah,

521
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.160
where do you point the finger, if you want to

522
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.060
put it that way? Uh, how do you, um,

523
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.400
curtail these effects and whose

524
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:36.690
responsibility does it become?

525
00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.140
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, you start looking, I think, at, um,

526
00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:42.160
what you make your spacecraft out of. The

527
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:44.000
Japanese have demonstrated that you can make

528
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:46.040
wooden spacecraft and operate them

529
00:22:46.040 --> 00:22:48.920
successfully. Uh, and I think wood

530
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:51.070
is one of the more benign, uh,

531
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:54.400
materials, um, that would burn up. Of

532
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:56.200
course, you still got soot and carbon coming

533
00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:58.840
off that. But, um, it might not be the

534
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:01.520
aluminium that, um, is

535
00:23:01.520 --> 00:23:04.490
certainly the biggest constituent of, of what

536
00:23:04.490 --> 00:23:06.770
is coming from present satellite reentries.

537
00:23:07.490 --> 00:23:10.330
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed. M. So, yeah, it's a case of,

538
00:23:10.330 --> 00:23:11.250
watch this. Space.

539
00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:14.050
Uh, we will probably learn more about this

540
00:23:14.450 --> 00:23:17.210
and, uh, we'll tell you all about it when

541
00:23:17.210 --> 00:23:19.609
that day comes. Um, but they'll be analysing

542
00:23:19.609 --> 00:23:21.330
the data at the moment and,

543
00:23:22.520 --> 00:23:24.490
uh, we hope it's good news, but I've got a

544
00:23:24.490 --> 00:23:25.730
feeling it won't be, Fred Watson.

545
00:23:26.120 --> 00:23:28.130
Professor Fred Watson: M. Yeah, I think you're right.

546
00:23:28.850 --> 00:23:31.650
Andrew Dunkley: Okay. Uh, that is a storey you can Also

547
00:23:31.650 --> 00:23:34.570
read@spare.com this is Space

548
00:23:34.570 --> 00:23:36.270
Nuts. Andrew Dunc, frankly, here with

549
00:23:36.270 --> 00:23:37.230
Fred Watson Watson,

550
00:23:41.470 --> 00:23:44.350
Professor Fred Watson: Tranquilly Base here. The Eagle has landed.

551
00:23:44.350 --> 00:23:45.390
Space Nuts.

552
00:23:46.110 --> 00:23:48.870
Andrew Dunkley: Our final storey. Uh, Fred Watson,

553
00:23:48.870 --> 00:23:51.070
takes us into the realm of science fiction,

554
00:23:51.070 --> 00:23:54.030
at least in part. Uh, they have just

555
00:23:54.030 --> 00:23:56.350
unveiled what might be

556
00:23:56.750 --> 00:23:59.310
the new United, uh, States

557
00:23:59.550 --> 00:24:01.470
Space Force uniforms.

558
00:24:02.360 --> 00:24:05.160
And they've got tongues wagging

559
00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:07.720
because they've drawn some similarities

560
00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:10.160
between the uniforms. And when I first saw

561
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:12.920
them, my mind immediately went to,

562
00:24:13.060 --> 00:24:15.640
um, SS uniforms of World War II.

563
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:16.520
Professor Fred Watson: Exactly.

564
00:24:17.080 --> 00:24:19.800
Andrew Dunkley: And, uh, that is the controversy because they

565
00:24:19.800 --> 00:24:22.560
do not sort of. I mean, it's the first

566
00:24:22.560 --> 00:24:24.920
thing that comes to mind when you look at

567
00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:27.320
these designs which have just been unveiled.

568
00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:30.810
Professor Fred Watson: Um, and Just to clarify where this has come

569
00:24:30.810 --> 00:24:33.170
from. It's come from Truth Social. Uh, it's

570
00:24:33.410 --> 00:24:35.810
one of uh, President Trump's

571
00:24:37.330 --> 00:24:39.970
basically, uh, uh, one of his posts on Truth

572
00:24:39.970 --> 00:24:42.290
Social. The um, as yet

573
00:24:42.290 --> 00:24:44.330
unconfirmed design is how it's being

574
00:24:44.330 --> 00:24:44.930
described.

575
00:24:45.250 --> 00:24:47.970
But yes, um, that was my thought too

576
00:24:48.290 --> 00:24:49.970
when I looked at this. I thought, wait a

577
00:24:49.970 --> 00:24:51.970
minute, I've seen that sort of thing before.

578
00:24:52.740 --> 00:24:55.410
Um, but you are ah, probably aware as well of

579
00:24:55.410 --> 00:24:58.010
the sort of science fiction links that there

580
00:24:58.010 --> 00:25:00.910
are with uh, with this, where this

581
00:25:00.910 --> 00:25:02.590
uniform is said to have come from.

582
00:25:02.750 --> 00:25:05.150
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, this, uh, back in the

583
00:25:05.310 --> 00:25:08.230
90s, the late 90s, uh, 1997, there was a

584
00:25:08.230 --> 00:25:10.550
movie released based on a book called

585
00:25:10.550 --> 00:25:13.190
Starship Troopers. And

586
00:25:13.190 --> 00:25:14.910
anybody who's watched that film, and I've

587
00:25:14.910 --> 00:25:17.710
watched it multiple times, it's a bit

588
00:25:17.710 --> 00:25:20.670
tongue in cheek. Um, there's a lot of,

589
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:23.670
um, to use the Australian vernacular,

590
00:25:23.670 --> 00:25:26.190
Jingo is a m. Minute. Um, but it

591
00:25:26.190 --> 00:25:29.030
portrays a, ah, human society that is

592
00:25:29.030 --> 00:25:32.010
very, very authoritari, very,

593
00:25:33.690 --> 00:25:35.840
very super aggressive, very um,

594
00:25:36.130 --> 00:25:38.410
competitive. Uh, lots of.

595
00:25:39.210 --> 00:25:41.530
It would be a very tense place to live

596
00:25:42.410 --> 00:25:44.730
if Earth as we know it,

597
00:25:45.560 --> 00:25:48.410
um, was the way Starship Troopers

598
00:25:48.410 --> 00:25:51.290
portrays human life. And they're at war

599
00:25:51.370 --> 00:25:54.290
against the bugs, um, who live

600
00:25:54.290 --> 00:25:57.130
on a planet called Clandathu. You know what's

601
00:25:57.130 --> 00:25:58.450
sad about this, Fred Watson? I'm doing it all

602
00:25:58.450 --> 00:26:01.410
from memory. And they have been shooting

603
00:26:01.410 --> 00:26:04.230
asteroids at ear. And um, in the

604
00:26:04.230 --> 00:26:06.550
movie they destroy the city of Buenos Aires.

605
00:26:06.550 --> 00:26:09.090
And that sort of causes um,

606
00:26:09.830 --> 00:26:12.630
the humans to up the ante in terms of

607
00:26:12.630 --> 00:26:15.590
trying to eliminate the bugs. Uh, and

608
00:26:15.590 --> 00:26:18.230
so it goes on. But what's striking about it,

609
00:26:18.310 --> 00:26:20.870
not only the authoritarian,

610
00:26:21.570 --> 00:26:24.230
um, nature of the military in

611
00:26:25.030 --> 00:26:27.430
this film, is the uniforms.

612
00:26:28.630 --> 00:26:31.410
They are dead set. Um, just

613
00:26:31.410 --> 00:26:33.090
like the uniforms that have been

614
00:26:33.810 --> 00:26:36.490
suggested as the new U.S. space Force

615
00:26:36.490 --> 00:26:38.770
uniforms. I did a bit of research on this,

616
00:26:38.770 --> 00:26:39.170
Fred Watson.

617
00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:42.210
Um, uh, the uniforms in

618
00:26:42.700 --> 00:26:45.330
um, the 1997 film

619
00:26:45.330 --> 00:26:48.290
Starship Troopers were deliberately designed

620
00:26:48.290 --> 00:26:50.370
by a costume designer, Ellen

621
00:26:50.530 --> 00:26:53.490
mirojink, uh, to evoke

622
00:26:53.490 --> 00:26:55.410
fascist aesthetics.

623
00:26:55.570 --> 00:26:56.380
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, so.

624
00:26:56.610 --> 00:26:59.490
Andrew Dunkley: So they're basically designed

625
00:26:59.490 --> 00:27:01.730
around the Nazi military uniform.

626
00:27:02.530 --> 00:27:04.170
That was deliberate. That was done on

627
00:27:04.170 --> 00:27:06.610
purpose. And now we're seeing These new

628
00:27:06.690 --> 00:27:09.330
uniforms, 2026,

629
00:27:09.840 --> 00:27:12.689
um, being unveiled, um, based

630
00:27:12.689 --> 00:27:15.410
on the uniforms from Starship Troopers

631
00:27:15.410 --> 00:27:16.700
and um,

632
00:27:18.370 --> 00:27:21.170
Star Wars. If you remember, um, the Empire

633
00:27:21.250 --> 00:27:24.010
uniforms were of a similar ilk. They

634
00:27:24.010 --> 00:27:26.700
are, look, don't get me wrong, they're quite

635
00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:29.020
striking, quite striking. But

636
00:27:30.220 --> 00:27:33.130
they immediately put you in um,

637
00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:35.980
a mindset of going, whoa.

638
00:27:36.220 --> 00:27:36.620
Professor Fred Watson: What?

639
00:27:39.340 --> 00:27:42.140
Andrew Dunkley: You're not impressed? You're just going,

640
00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:46.660
hello. What are we thinking here? Why are we

641
00:27:46.660 --> 00:27:49.300
doing it this way. That's kind of the

642
00:27:49.300 --> 00:27:50.230
reaction I had head.

643
00:27:51.750 --> 00:27:54.470
Professor Fred Watson: And me too. Um, when, when I saw

644
00:27:54.710 --> 00:27:56.510
it was the boots, I noticed first I thought,

645
00:27:56.510 --> 00:27:57.830
wait a minute, I've seen that sort of thing

646
00:27:57.830 --> 00:27:58.150
before.

647
00:27:58.150 --> 00:27:59.190
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, Jack Boots.

648
00:27:59.270 --> 00:28:00.110
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, exactly.

649
00:28:00.110 --> 00:28:02.390
Andrew Dunkley: More or less. Yeah, yeah, they're quite,

650
00:28:02.510 --> 00:28:05.430
um, I mean, I, I think

651
00:28:05.430 --> 00:28:08.350
uniforms are an amazing thing. Uh, I, I don't

652
00:28:08.350 --> 00:28:10.950
know where they originated. I, I did look it

653
00:28:10.950 --> 00:28:13.550
up once and I, I, I think it was the British

654
00:28:13.550 --> 00:28:16.550
or no, the Romans. The Romans, um, that

655
00:28:16.550 --> 00:28:18.400
invented uniforms. But, um,

656
00:28:19.750 --> 00:28:21.710
everybody has them now and, and some of them

657
00:28:21.710 --> 00:28:23.830
are incredible. I mean, uniforms for some

658
00:28:23.830 --> 00:28:26.630
reason make human beings look better

659
00:28:27.110 --> 00:28:29.990
somehow. Um, and

660
00:28:31.510 --> 00:28:33.630
these ones, I don't know if you're going to

661
00:28:33.630 --> 00:28:36.110
get the right kind of psychological

662
00:28:36.110 --> 00:28:39.110
reaction when, if they

663
00:28:39.110 --> 00:28:41.070
go down this road. And that's a, that's a big

664
00:28:41.070 --> 00:28:41.830
if, I guess.

665
00:28:43.840 --> 00:28:46.520
Professor Fred Watson: I don't know where this storey's going

666
00:28:46.520 --> 00:28:49.360
really, Andrew. And, um, you know, what

667
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.160
we are likely to see coming out of the Space

668
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.880
Force itself rather than just coming from the

669
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.360
President's fertile, uh, mind.

670
00:28:58.080 --> 00:29:00.880
But, um, yes, I didn't find it

671
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.280
something that cheered me up particularly.

672
00:29:03.740 --> 00:29:06.640
Uh, I thought it was very much along

673
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:08.160
the lines that you've described something

674
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:10.200
that we could probably well do with that.

675
00:29:10.280 --> 00:29:11.560
Uniformly so.

676
00:29:11.560 --> 00:29:14.560
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. But what I would say to, uh, Space

677
00:29:14.560 --> 00:29:16.920
Nuts listeners is have a look for yourself

678
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:19.960
and be your own judge. Don't, you don't have

679
00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:22.840
to believe what we think. Um, we're just.

680
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:25.120
As soon as I opened the storey that

681
00:29:25.120 --> 00:29:27.720
Fred Watson sent me, I went, what is this?

682
00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:31.440
Before I read a thing, I saw the picture and

683
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.320
went, what are we looking at here? And then I

684
00:29:34.320 --> 00:29:36.370
read the caption and went, no,

685
00:29:38.930 --> 00:29:41.700
seriously. Ah, anyway, have a look.

686
00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:43.550
Uh, you can see it@, uh,

687
00:29:43.550 --> 00:29:45.890
spaceconnectonline.com

688
00:29:46.210 --> 00:29:48.450
it's um. Yeah, or just do

689
00:29:49.410 --> 00:29:51.930
a search through your favourite search engine

690
00:29:51.930 --> 00:29:54.930
of United States Space Force Service

691
00:29:54.930 --> 00:29:57.250
dress uniform, I think is what it's called.

692
00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:00.850
Um, and. Yeah, well,

693
00:30:01.570 --> 00:30:03.450
we'll leave it to you to decide what you

694
00:30:03.450 --> 00:30:06.210
think. Uh, ah, it's a

695
00:30:06.210 --> 00:30:08.990
difficult one because, uh, it's so divisive.

696
00:30:09.070 --> 00:30:11.910
Just that look in

697
00:30:11.910 --> 00:30:14.830
itself without saying anything, um, would

698
00:30:14.830 --> 00:30:17.590
be instantly divisive, I venture to

699
00:30:17.590 --> 00:30:17.870
say.

700
00:30:18.350 --> 00:30:19.550
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, you're probably right.

701
00:30:21.340 --> 00:30:24.310
Um, yeah, to me

702
00:30:24.310 --> 00:30:26.900
it just portrays arrogance of a kind that,

703
00:30:26.900 --> 00:30:28.590
um, we could do without.

704
00:30:28.830 --> 00:30:30.030
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, possibly so.

705
00:30:30.430 --> 00:30:30.990
Professor Fred Watson: All right.

706
00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:34.030
Andrew Dunkley: Uh, yeah, As I said, spaceconnectonline.com

707
00:30:34.270 --> 00:30:36.970
if you want to cheque that out. And I think

708
00:30:36.970 --> 00:30:38.050
we are just about done.

709
00:30:38.050 --> 00:30:39.370
Fred Watson, thank you so much.

710
00:30:39.690 --> 00:30:41.650
Professor Fred Watson: It's a pleasure, Andrew. Always interesting

711
00:30:41.650 --> 00:30:43.930
to chew the fat over these issues, no matter

712
00:30:43.930 --> 00:30:46.530
what they are. We did get away from our

713
00:30:46.530 --> 00:30:48.730
normal stocking trade there, uh, with the

714
00:30:48.730 --> 00:30:51.510
uniforms. It's not often we talk about, uh,

715
00:30:51.690 --> 00:30:53.850
fashion in terms of, um, you know, space

716
00:30:53.850 --> 00:30:55.370
fashion, if I can put it that way.

717
00:30:55.450 --> 00:30:57.050
Andrew Dunkley: Well, that's what it is, isn't it, really?

718
00:30:57.290 --> 00:30:58.170
Space fashion.

719
00:30:58.170 --> 00:30:58.570
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

720
00:30:58.810 --> 00:31:01.330
Andrew Dunkley: Well, we've talked about the flight

721
00:31:01.330 --> 00:31:02.370
suits, certainly.

722
00:31:02.370 --> 00:31:03.050
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, we have.

723
00:31:03.050 --> 00:31:05.210
Andrew Dunkley: When they've done major upgrades on those and

724
00:31:05.450 --> 00:31:08.150
their incompatibility between space agencies,

725
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:08.340
so.

726
00:31:08.340 --> 00:31:09.260
Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

727
00:31:09.820 --> 00:31:12.100
Andrew Dunkley: There's always controversy somewhere, even in

728
00:31:12.100 --> 00:31:14.940
fashion. Uh, thanks, Fred Watson. We'll catch

729
00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:15.900
you on the next episode.

730
00:31:15.900 --> 00:31:16.580
Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great.

731
00:31:16.580 --> 00:31:18.540
Andrew Dunkley: Thank you, Professor Fred Watson Watson,

732
00:31:18.540 --> 00:31:20.460
astronomer at large. And don't forget to

733
00:31:20.460 --> 00:31:21.580
visit us online between

734
00:31:21.580 --> 00:31:24.180
episodes@spacenutsio or

735
00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:27.100
spacenutspodcast.com and

736
00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:29.140
you can send us messages there through the

737
00:31:29.140 --> 00:31:30.980
Ask me anything link up the top, or you can

738
00:31:30.980 --> 00:31:33.420
visit the shop, or you can sign up for the,

739
00:31:33.620 --> 00:31:36.540
uh, Astronomy AstroDailyPod Newsletter, uh,

740
00:31:36.540 --> 00:31:38.140
and whatever you like. And if you want to

741
00:31:38.140 --> 00:31:39.860
become a supporter, you can hit the supporter

742
00:31:39.860 --> 00:31:42.040
button and see how you can do that too. And

743
00:31:42.040 --> 00:31:44.500
thanks to all our supporters, uh, for, uh,

744
00:31:44.500 --> 00:31:47.480
getting behind us with a cup of coffee and a

745
00:31:47.560 --> 00:31:48.360
cream bun.

746
00:31:49.060 --> 00:31:51.720
Uh, and thanks to Huw in the studio, uh, who

747
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:53.760
couldn't, uh, be with us today. He wanted,

748
00:31:53.760 --> 00:31:56.520
uh, to be the first in line for a Space Force

749
00:31:56.520 --> 00:31:59.000
uniform. And he's still waiting.

750
00:31:59.800 --> 00:32:01.640
And from me, Andrew Dunkley, we'll catch you

751
00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:03.320
on the next episode of Space Nuts. Until

752
00:32:03.320 --> 00:32:06.200
then, bye bye. Space Nuts. You've been

753
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:07.840
listening to the Space Nuts

754
00:32:07.840 --> 00:32:08.440
Professor Fred Watson: podcast,

755
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:12.760
Andrew Dunkley: available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

756
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:15.760
iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast

757
00:32:15.760 --> 00:32:17.440
player. You can also stream on

758
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:19.160
demand@bytes.com.

759
00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:21.520
this has been another quality podcast

760
00:32:21.520 --> 00:32:23.640
production from bytes.com.