Space Force Unveiled: The Surprising Reality of Weapons in Orbit

WEBVTT

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Andrew Dunkley: Hello, thanks for joining us. This is Space

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Nuts, where we talk astronomy, space science

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and all sorts of weird and wonderful things.

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This one though, uh, one of the stories we're

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covering today, uh, sort of

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dovetails into something we talked about not,

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um, so long ago regarding Space

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Force. No, it's not a sequel to their, uh,

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unveiling of their uniforms, but it

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is something we have talked about recently.

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So the penny might drop with, uh, a few

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people as to what that might be. We'll get

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into that shortly. And should we be calling

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Mars the purple planet? I'll tell you

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why. And they've found yet another big crater

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on the moon. We'll talk about all of that on,

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uh, the latest episode of space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3. 2. 1. 2, 3, 4,

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5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

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Andrew Dunkley: Space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And he joins us again and, uh, we're so

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happy to have him. It's Professor Fred Watson

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Watson, astronomer at large. Hello,

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Fred Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew.

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Hello, M. I think we both had a busy week,

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haven't we? It's amazing we can squeeze these

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in. Yes, yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: Uh, it's crazy. Uh, and, and

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uh, next week's going to be even worse for me

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with, um, a major golf tournament at our

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club, which I'm heavily involved in

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and I think not only on the organising side

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of it. I've got to play for 18 whole

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rounds in, um,

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six days or something. Oh, gosh, I

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don't know. Why do we do these things to

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ourselves, Fred Watson?

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, exactly.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it'll be fun. It'll be fun.

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Um, it'll probably help me sleep on the

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plane when we do our trip in a, in a couple

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of weeks time. Although by the time this

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episode gets released, um, I, I don't

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know where we'll be. But, um, let's get down

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to business. We have got so much to talk

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about.

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And this first story has probably

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shocked, um, a few people that have uh, now

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heard the news, uh, involving Space

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Force and their um,

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announcement that there are in fact

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weapons in orbit around Earth.

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We talked about this not so long ago,

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Fred Watson, and we just assumed that's

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probably the case. But no one's admitting

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anything. Well now the United States has

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actually fessed up.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, they have. That's right, with an

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announcement, uh, which I've currently lost.

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Uh, but is. Here we are.

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Uh, it was, came from the secretary, uh, of

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the Air Force, um, whose

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name is Tony Meek. I think that's how it's

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pronounced. Uh, and this was at a

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conference on airspace and

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cyber, uh, and the

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secretary of the Air Force or Air Force

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said today we continue to ensure we remain

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ready to meet the challenges of evolving

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threats wherever they exist. This is why the

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United States now has on orbit

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space control weapons capable of defending

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the joint force against hostile adversary

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action. So, um,

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you know, it's one of these things pretty

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well, as you said that we've talked about

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before, that we've

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tacitly assumed, uh, certain other powers

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have weapons in space, but nobody's ever

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come up front and said it. Um,

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and so the, uh,

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admission by the secretary of the Air Force

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is quite significant. So,

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uh, it sounds as though

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there's a whole retinue of

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possibilities that this might include.

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My first thought was electromagnetic weapons,

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lasers, um, because that's what

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the Reagan administration were looking at

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back in the 1980s, the

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Reagan star wars programme.

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But, uh, we now have, um,

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I, uh, guess a whole array of things that

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probably weren't around then. Um, including

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directed energy by lasers,

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uh, or radio frequency jammers. But also

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there are chemical sprayers, uh, there's net

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equipment, microwave devices. Once again,

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that's electromagnetic or

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basically just good old fashioned

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kinetic impact. Uh, in other words,

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something into.

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Andrew Dunkley: Crash into something.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yeah. Uh, so, uh,

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yeah, really interesting, uh, to read that.

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Uh, the first thing I did when I read this

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last week or earlier in the week was to

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check what the, um, International

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Space Outer space treaty of

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1967 says about weapons. What

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it specifically, um,

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prohibits is nuclear, uh,

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weapons. They are, uh,

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definitely prohibited by the

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treaty, though it doesn't mention

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non nuclear weapons. On the other hand,

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it does say that, um, you know,

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the International Space Treaty is all about

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the peaceful uses of outer space.

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Um, and so it sort of tends to rule out, uh,

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something that's not peaceful.

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Andrew Dunkley: And Earth is very upset by that news.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Ah, I, uh, need to keep an eye on him

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because I'm his soul,

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Andrew Dunkley: um, soul carer today.

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Professor Fred Watson: Not carer. Um, Yeah, I

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don't know what the word is.

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Uh, I'm his soul support. Just give me a

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second, Andrew. I've got to find out what's

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going on.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay.

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Professor Fred Watson: Ah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Ah, it happens sometimes.

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Um, we've got one across the road that does

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exactly the same thing whenever the wind

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changes. Just goes off its proverbial nut

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and, um.

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Professor Fred Watson: What's your problem?

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Andrew Dunkley: I can't see him at the moment. But it's only

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a puppy. See, it doesn't understand,

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but, um, it drives people crazy

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sometimes.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um.

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Professor Fred Watson: Come on.

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Andrew Dunkley: All right. I Think we're going to have an

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added guest to the show by the sound of it.

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Professor Fred Watson: Good lad. Yes, sit down,

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make yourself at home. No idea

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what that was about. Sorry about that,

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Andrew.

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Andrew Dunkley: It could have just been a butterfly,

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Fred Watson.

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Who knows?

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Professor Fred Watson: Usually it's a leaf.

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Andrew Dunkley: That's what I was saying.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Or a change of breeze.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, something like that.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Um, back to our topic. That's okay. Uh,

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back to our topic.

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Uh, I just did uh, a bit of a search

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on um, an AI platform to see

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what sort of weapons could potentially be in

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orbit around the planet at the moment.

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Because they're not going to confess to what

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exactly they've got, I imagine. Um,

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but anti satellite interceptors, electro

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magnetic, um, or electronic warfare jamming

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robotic co. Orbital weapons,

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uh, directed energy weapons. Conventional

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missile launches from orbit would be

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possible. Uh, this one's interesting.

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Kinetic tungsten projectiles.

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Uh, you were talking about kinetic weapons.

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Nuclear, uh, weapons are uh,

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technically plaus, but as you said,

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outlawed by uh, the Outer Space Treaty.

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And chemical and biological weapons in orbit.

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Uh, but again, um,

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there's possible prohibition of those.

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So um, you got to wonder whether or

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not that particular thought.

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Professor Fred Watson: Did you say biological?

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Andrew Dunkley: No, chemical?

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Chemical and biological.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. You would want to keep those out

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of space, I guess.

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Andrew Dunkley: I've been reading a book, uh, by John

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Birmingham, an Australian sci fi author

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called World War 3.0. I think I've mentioned

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it before. Great, great series. And

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it involves the fact that um, uh,

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a uh, task force from the future ended up

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getting sent back to World War II and

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it changed the world. And uh, Stalin, because

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they had access to all the history of what

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was going to happen to them that hadn't

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happened yet. Uh, people like

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Stalin didn't end up dying as early as

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we know, um, and developed weapons uh,

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of mass destruction that were fired from

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space and attacked NATO with kinetic

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tungsten projectiles from space. So it's

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really interesting that that turned up on the

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list.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Ah, it's pretty sharp. Uh,

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is Mr. Uh, Birmingham.

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Andrew Dunkley: It sure is.

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Professor Fred Watson: Gig with him once, which was great pleasure.

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Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: But this is, this is a very um,

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dicey subject. Probably a divisive

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subject and one that

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I think is a cause for concern to

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um, a certain degree because

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um, you know, no one up until now has

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admitted that they have weapons in orbit.

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We've just assumed they probably have. The US

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is the first to actually say, yep, yep, we've

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done it. They're up there. We

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don't know what they are though, do we?

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Exactly.

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Professor Fred Watson: No and, and with, you know, with other

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nations that almost certainly have them too,

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uh, it's still a matter of conjecture because

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they're even less likely to uh,

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to, to give us details of what they've got in

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space.

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Andrew Dunkley: The reasoning behind this has been suggested

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that we, we need to um, arm ourselves

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to be ready for whatever threat may exist

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in the future. What kind of threat

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could develop in space? And are

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we talking weapons that are going to be used

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in space against something else in space,

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or are they looking at weapons that they can

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use from space to the

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ground? Aim at a target on Earth?

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Or is it both?

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Professor Fred Watson: It could be both, but I think the former is

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the one that is the one they're most upfront

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about. Um, there was a comment uh,

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from uh, actually um, Dr.

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Malcolm Davis, who's a senior analyst at the

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Australian Strategic Policy Institute,

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um, who says Space Force is a

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direct response to the growing Russian

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and Chinese anti satellite and anti space

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capabilities, particularly anti satellite

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missile systems as displayed by the Chinese

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in 2007. Uh, and that's,

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I uh, guess um, some of the um, things

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that we know about because of the DEB that

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was released when they were tested.

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Uh, so uh, it's uh, you know.

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Ah, you're absolutely right.

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There's two conversations here. There's the

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one you know, that's up front

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the sort of we know nothing conversation. And

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yet underneath that uh, there's a very, very

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detailed analysis of what's going on

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uh, and what is basically

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likely to be possible. Another comment from

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Malcolm Davis. Uh, the decision to combine

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the space capabilities across the various

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branches, a standalone branch of the US

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Armed Forces which is equal to branches like

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the US Navy or US Air Force is an important

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step forward and highlights how important the

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US considers the space domain.

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So that's, yes, that's another possible uh,

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uh, another comment there. I mean to some

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extent that's really regarding the formation

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of the Space Force which happened some time

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ago.

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Andrew Dunkley: Would it be too long a bow to draw, no

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pun intended, that um, they're doing this

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because they know the others have to.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um. Yes. I don't think that's a longbow at

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all. I think that's very likely.

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Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: It's sad isn't it? I mean we shouldn't be

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surprised. Uh, we lock our doors

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because we don't trust people that walk past

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our houses. This is just a very

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elaborate and high tech orbital version of

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that, I think.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes it is. Yeah, yeah, that's mhm.

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Professor Fred Watson: Right.

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Andrew Dunkley: And that's unfortunately human nature. Ah.

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And we, we have.

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And in fact when you, when you read um, into

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it deeply, the article

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that we're referring to in

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arstechnica.com says what is

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clear is there is now an arms race in

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orbit. Uh, and, and we, I

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didn't mention the you know, potential

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antagonist but uh, I don't think you would

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get much money back from a bet on it being

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Russia and China.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: So it's um, it's, it's no surprise

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at all. Uh, who knows where it leads

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Fred Watson, that's, that's the next

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question. You know what, what could happen

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next? Uh, ah, are we going to see

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at some stage in the future an all out

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assault, Satellites versus satellites?

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I don't know.

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Professor Fred Watson: It could um, I mean that could change our

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world completely because of the absolute

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dependence that we have on space technology.

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Yeah, pretty well. Everything we do,

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including what you and I are doing now goes

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through space.

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Andrew Dunkley: Ah, it wouldn't surprise me either if there

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was some major conflict in the future. Uh,

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one of the strategic targets would be

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communications, uh, satellites and

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military satellites.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

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Andrew Dunkley: So yeah, here it is, it's all ready to go and

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another um, arms race is upon us.

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If you'd like to read about that. Uh, As I

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said, arstechnica.com has

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written a um, quite uh, significant

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article explaining what is happening. But

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yes, the United States is the first to admit

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that they have weapons in orbit.

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This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and

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Professor Fred Watson Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: I'm going to step off the land mountain.

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That's one small step for man,

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one

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Andrew Dunkley: Space Nuts. Okay Fred Watson, let's

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go to Mars. Uh, it is a um,

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beautiful planet. Uh, I saw a photo the other

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day of a sunset on,

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on Mars and it is just

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you know, nothing like we get on Earth. It's,

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it's a beautiful sight. And

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uh, interestingly enough when the sun is

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setting on mar, the sky turns blue as

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against. When the sun is setting on Earth the

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sky turns red. Um, what

356
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they've discovered now is that uh, maybe we

357
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should be starting to think about uh, start

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to think about calling it the purple planet

359
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because uh, down near the south pole there

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are some landscapes that just

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the photos, I can't describe

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them. That will do them justice I think is

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what I'm trying to say.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, that's right.

365
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I'm always hesitant Andrew to pick

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out stories that um, rely heavily

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on visual images because a lot of our

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listeners just listen rather than watch.

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Uh, but it's well worth having a

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look at these. Um, perhaps the best site is

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uh, The European Space Agency site.

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Uh, Purple Swirls on the Red Planet. Uh,

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it's basically a press release came out

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last um, in fact a couple of days ago. Uh,

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and it's a nice, it's a region around

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Mars south pole which is being

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illuminated from pretty low angle,

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uh as you'd expect near the south pole.

379
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Um, but the colours are ah, exactly as you've

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said. The colours are what make this quite

381
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dramatic. Striking swirls as they describe

382
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it, of purple, pink and red. It's a far cry

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from the colour palette we usually associate

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with the red planet. Yeah, so, yeah, very,

385
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very interesting. And I think the reds and

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browns, um, they do come not from

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uh, sunset illumination as you've

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already indicated. The sky is blue on Mars at

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sunset. Uh, but it

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comes from the dust, the

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oxidised iron, uh, the dust in the

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atmosphere, the dust that settles on pretty

393
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well all the surfaces just because uh,

394
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of the winds that blow on Mars. Um, and

395
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so uh, there's lots of uh,

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of red in perhaps

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all its manifestations from pink to

398
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purple, um, sometimes almost

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white but still with that reddish hue. Uh,

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and it's a region uh, called uh,

401
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Thyles Rupus. I uh, beg your

402
00:16:41.560 --> 00:16:44.280
pardon? Rupes. Rupes is uh, a Latin

403
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word for cliff or wall. Thales

404
00:16:47.160 --> 00:16:49.520
is actually uh, refers to Thule.

405
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Thule which we used to talk about. Ultima

406
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Thule was the name that we used to give to

407
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Arrokoth, the Furth known object that's

408
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been visited by a spacecraft. So,

409
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um, these are materials

410
00:17:03.620 --> 00:17:06.500
which uh, seem to be

411
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as well due to volcanic activity to some

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extent. Um, a comment on the ESA uh

413
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website says that the volcanic

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activity leaves environments um,

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rich in materials such as olivine and

416
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pyroxene, both of which are prevalent in

417
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Earth's mantle. Um, and those layers of

418
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rock actually not far below the crust of our

419
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planet, although that's quite thick. But

420
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yeah, some really interesting geology there.

421
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Um, lots of craters in the region, uh,

422
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evidence of perhaps a glacier there as well.

423
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Uh, given that we're near the, near the pole.

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Uh, so, um, well worth a look if our

425
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listeners want to check it out. Purple Swirls

426
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on the Red planet.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, I just sent the link to our live

428
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audience so those that are in the chat room

429
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can uh, click on it and have a look at some

430
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of these pictures. Uh, they are truly

431
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extraordinary. I think

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Fred Watson, uh, that um, these

433
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images were impossible in the

434
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recent past, but they are now

435
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um, more and more significant and

436
00:18:10.860 --> 00:18:12.700
more and more detailed because the technology

437
00:18:12.860 --> 00:18:14.980
is just getting so much better. The High

438
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definition cameras that are available,

439
00:18:17.610 --> 00:18:20.180
um, the super pixel cameras, whatever you

440
00:18:20.180 --> 00:18:22.860
want to call them, uh, that can take these

441
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images and create such

442
00:18:25.790 --> 00:18:27.830
fine detail, it's really amazing.

443
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Professor Fred Watson: Well, uh, that's certainly true, uh, but Mars

444
00:18:31.590 --> 00:18:33.510
Express, when was it launched? It's probably

445
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about 20 years ago I think.

446
00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.910
Um, let's just check when it

447
00:18:38.910 --> 00:18:41.110
went into space. I can do that.

448
00:18:41.990 --> 00:18:44.870
Andrew Dunkley: I'm raising you 6-2-2003.

449
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Professor Fred Watson: Got it.

450
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Yeah, there you go. 23 years ago. So that is

451
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pretty uh, legacy technology I

452
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think you'd say. And imagine what you could

453
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do now given that the high resolution

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cameras um, aboard Mars Express

455
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are probably only comparable, uh,

456
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with the cameras that are in our

457
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smartphones, rather than being comparable

458
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with the camera that's on the Vera C. Rubin

459
00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.040
Observatory's telescope, uh, which is the

460
00:19:13.040 --> 00:19:13.800
size of a bus.

461
00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.780
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, yes, I think I've said it before that

462
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uh, the technology uh, in a

463
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standard smartphone today, uh, far

464
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exceeds the computer capacity of

465
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um, the Apollo 11 mission.

466
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And, and I think it was clearly demonstrated

467
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on Apollo 13, uh, in the movie

468
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that uh, when, when they were trying to keep

469
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the astronauts alive and, and reinvent

470
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:43.080
their carbon filters, uh, carbon dioxide

471
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filters and all that jazz, that

472
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um, they had to sequentially

473
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turn systems on and off so that

474
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the batteries wouldn't die and that the

475
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astronauts would be stranded. And when you

476
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listen to the dialogue, I mean the amount of

477
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power they were talking about was minuscule.

478
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And the um, computer

479
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capacity of the spacecraft we're

480
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talking about in those um, late 60s, early

481
00:20:10.930 --> 00:20:13.370
70s space flights was just.

482
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You couldn't fit a hundred songs on it.

483
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Professor Fred Watson: That's absolutely right. I remember, um,

484
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what year would it have been? 69, I think.

485
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The party that we had to celebrate,

486
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uh, our mainframe computer, the

487
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biggest computer almost in Scotland

488
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at St Andrews University when its memory was

489
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upgraded to 256k,

490
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which. Well, it's not, it's

491
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about half a song, isn't it? Yeah, it is less

492
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than half a song.

493
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Andrew Dunkley: And now you, you drive through a city like

494
00:20:49.070 --> 00:20:51.230
Canberra, which I did a few weeks ago, and

495
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you, you drive past massive

496
00:20:54.190 --> 00:20:57.070
buildings that are the, you know, the size of

497
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shopping centres and they are 100

498
00:21:00.030 --> 00:21:02.270
dedicated to data storage.

499
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It is mind blowing what we hear

500
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Professor Fred Watson: a lot about, um, data centres and they're

501
00:21:07.710 --> 00:21:09.550
going to be a big issue. They're certainly a

502
00:21:09.550 --> 00:21:12.230
big issue here and in the United States about

503
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whether we want them chewing up our power and

504
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our water. Um, they are very, very power

505
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hungry.

506
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Andrew Dunkley: In particular, I'm not sure I mentioned it

507
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but they uh, uh, I was listening to

508
00:21:22.189 --> 00:21:24.190
two fellows that I was playing golf with down

509
00:21:24.190 --> 00:21:26.390
in Canberra one day that were talking about

510
00:21:26.470 --> 00:21:29.040
one of the data centres and they said, um,

511
00:21:29.040 --> 00:21:31.750
did you go into the wind tunnel? And

512
00:21:32.380 --> 00:21:35.030
uh, my friend said, yeah, I did. It's where

513
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all the hot air gets blown

514
00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:40.760
out of the building. Um, and

515
00:21:40.760 --> 00:21:42.840
I said it's like walking through the Zaharov

516
00:21:42.840 --> 00:21:45.760
desert. It's just so hot in that tunnel

517
00:21:45.840 --> 00:21:48.680
because of um, the amount of air that's

518
00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:51.560
required to cool the servers that are storing

519
00:21:51.560 --> 00:21:54.520
the data. And it's

520
00:21:54.520 --> 00:21:56.240
big business now. It's huge.

521
00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.920
We're getting a bit off track but uh, we're

522
00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:02.160
talking about the advances in technology and

523
00:22:02.890 --> 00:22:05.050
in terms of um, space

524
00:22:06.410 --> 00:22:09.410
photography, uh, um, it's probably

525
00:22:09.410 --> 00:22:11.050
going ahead in leaps and bounds.

526
00:22:11.530 --> 00:22:13.650
Professor Fred Watson: But just um, recapping what we are talking

527
00:22:13.650 --> 00:22:16.570
about, that's as we were saying,

528
00:22:16.570 --> 00:22:18.970
that's 23 year old cameras at least that are

529
00:22:18.970 --> 00:22:21.130
on Mars Express. But

530
00:22:21.770 --> 00:22:24.090
what will have improved is the processing

531
00:22:24.090 --> 00:22:26.490
technology to get the very best images

532
00:22:26.810 --> 00:22:29.050
out of those. And perhaps that's one reason

533
00:22:29.050 --> 00:22:31.610
why we're seeing these glorious images

534
00:22:31.690 --> 00:22:34.320
of um, Mars, Southern moon,

535
00:22:34.470 --> 00:22:35.030
polar region.

536
00:22:35.190 --> 00:22:37.940
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, on that I took some photos uh,

537
00:22:37.940 --> 00:22:40.710
with my smart telescope the other night.

538
00:22:40.790 --> 00:22:43.550
I've got some really lovely images and I took

539
00:22:43.550 --> 00:22:45.910
a really nice one of the moon because it was

540
00:22:46.070 --> 00:22:48.750
um, I don't think it was a full moon that

541
00:22:48.750 --> 00:22:51.750
night, but it was damn close and I,

542
00:22:52.710 --> 00:22:55.590
I thought I'll see what um, ChatGPT

543
00:22:55.750 --> 00:22:57.950
can do to this. So I, I put the photo in

544
00:22:57.950 --> 00:23:00.790
ChatGPT and I just said can you sharpen this,

545
00:23:00.870 --> 00:23:03.590
enhance it a little? I don't want to lose

546
00:23:04.190 --> 00:23:06.670
the character of the image but I, you know,

547
00:23:06.670 --> 00:23:09.110
can you, can you ramp up the um,

548
00:23:09.790 --> 00:23:12.110
uh, the image a bit so that it um, it's got,

549
00:23:12.110 --> 00:23:14.510
it's a bit more striking. Wow.

550
00:23:14.990 --> 00:23:17.830
What it did was amazing. Um, yeah, I

551
00:23:17.830 --> 00:23:19.430
should send you the two shots so you can see

552
00:23:19.430 --> 00:23:19.550
the

553
00:23:19.550 --> 00:23:21.030
Professor Fred Watson: difference, but um, to see them.

554
00:23:21.030 --> 00:23:23.470
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah, it was, it was quite remarkable

555
00:23:23.470 --> 00:23:26.150
what it did. Um, so I was

556
00:23:26.150 --> 00:23:28.970
um, yeah, I was quite, uh,

557
00:23:28.970 --> 00:23:31.270
quite chuffed with how that turned out. So

558
00:23:31.270 --> 00:23:33.590
even if you get a really shonky image,

559
00:23:33.590 --> 00:23:36.010
sometimes you can just load into

560
00:23:36.170 --> 00:23:39.170
uh, an AI platform and say, well,

561
00:23:39.170 --> 00:23:42.170
can you do this? And wham, most of the time

562
00:23:42.170 --> 00:23:44.970
it can. Remarkable what's available to

563
00:23:45.050 --> 00:23:47.610
us now. And it brings me back to that

564
00:23:48.090 --> 00:23:48.810
old question.

565
00:23:48.810 --> 00:23:51.809
If we can do this as everyday people in

566
00:23:51.809 --> 00:23:54.490
our homes with the AI technology

567
00:23:54.650 --> 00:23:57.370
that's available, what kind of AI technology

568
00:23:57.610 --> 00:23:59.690
are they developing or have they developed

569
00:23:59.770 --> 00:24:02.410
for military services

570
00:24:02.570 --> 00:24:05.480
and all of those kinds of um,

571
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:08.240
things you Just, you know, it's probably way

572
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:09.840
beyond our imaginations already.

573
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:13.320
Professor Fred Watson: Indeed, I think. Yeah.

574
00:24:13.320 --> 00:24:15.520
Andrew Dunkley: Anyway, uh, yes, if you would like to see

575
00:24:15.520 --> 00:24:18.000
those ESA images of

576
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.680
Mars around the South Pole region, uh, they

577
00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:23.400
are absolutely beautiful and you can uh, go

578
00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:25.920
to the ESA.int

579
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:29.680
website and check it out. You're listening to

580
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:31.860
Space Nuts, a, um,

581
00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.060
standard edition with Andrew Dunkley head

582
00:24:35.060 --> 00:24:36.340
Professor Fred Watson Watson.

583
00:24:38.660 --> 00:24:39.100
Professor Fred Watson: Okay.

584
00:24:39.100 --> 00:24:41.380
Professor Fred Watson: We checked all four systems and being with a

585
00:24:41.380 --> 00:24:42.540
girl, Space nets.

586
00:24:42.540 --> 00:24:44.540
Andrew Dunkley: I was about to say Q and A edition, but

587
00:24:44.540 --> 00:24:47.500
that's, that's next. We do that next. I'm

588
00:24:47.500 --> 00:24:49.760
getting ahead of myself. Um,

589
00:24:50.580 --> 00:24:53.220
we go from a very colourful place to a not so

590
00:24:53.220 --> 00:24:54.860
colourful place. Although the, you know, when

591
00:24:54.860 --> 00:24:56.420
you talk to the astronauts who have walked on

592
00:24:56.420 --> 00:24:58.860
the uh, moon, they go, hang on a minute. It

593
00:24:58.860 --> 00:25:00.700
is actually quite colourful here. You just

594
00:25:00.700 --> 00:25:03.380
gotta, you know, be pretty close. Uh, yes,

595
00:25:03.380 --> 00:25:05.800
the moon, uh, the reason it's in the news at

596
00:25:05.800 --> 00:25:07.720
the moment, to quote my friend Fred Watson

597
00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:10.040
Watson, is because they've found a new hole,

598
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:13.200
uh, a crater and it was almost

599
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:14.040
found by accident.

600
00:25:14.040 --> 00:25:14.440
Fred Watson.

601
00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:17.040
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. It's people trolling

602
00:25:17.040 --> 00:25:18.840
through and uh, it's actually NASA

603
00:25:18.840 --> 00:25:21.640
researchers who are doing this using the

604
00:25:22.360 --> 00:25:24.200
uh, images from NASA's Lunar

605
00:25:24.760 --> 00:25:27.360
Reconnaissance Orbiter, uh, which again goes

606
00:25:27.360 --> 00:25:30.200
back probably a couple of decades, uh, and

607
00:25:30.280 --> 00:25:32.920
is a phenomenal device for

608
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:35.860
imaging the lunar surface. Um,

609
00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:38.860
so uh, what they do, the

610
00:25:38.860 --> 00:25:41.420
Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, it surveys the

611
00:25:41.420 --> 00:25:44.380
moon's surface on a regular basis and so you

612
00:25:44.380 --> 00:25:46.980
can tell if something changes.

613
00:25:47.060 --> 00:25:49.740
And this basically is

614
00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:52.499
something that has changed. There has been

615
00:25:53.280 --> 00:25:55.980
uh, an impact on the moon that's

616
00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:58.620
created a crater quarter of a kilometre

617
00:25:58.620 --> 00:26:01.460
across, 222 metres, uh, and

618
00:26:01.460 --> 00:26:04.380
up to 43 metres deep. So this is a

619
00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:07.140
big hole, um, and it's actually the

620
00:26:07.140 --> 00:26:09.660
biggest known impact crater that has been

621
00:26:10.060 --> 00:26:13.010
created in recent times. Uh,

622
00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:16.700
it fell ah, between uh, two

623
00:26:17.100 --> 00:26:19.980
surveys or scans of the moon. So we've got,

624
00:26:20.380 --> 00:26:23.300
we don't have a precise date for it but we

625
00:26:23.300 --> 00:26:26.180
do have um, a pair

626
00:26:26.180 --> 00:26:28.560
of dates between which we know uh,

627
00:26:28.860 --> 00:26:31.340
when that happened. Uh, and

628
00:26:31.580 --> 00:26:34.280
I've lost the dates now on my scre screen,

629
00:26:34.570 --> 00:26:36.840
uh so I'll have to rely on you to tell me

630
00:26:36.840 --> 00:26:38.720
what they are. But it was a relatively short

631
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.720
interval between the two dates

632
00:26:41.800 --> 00:26:44.280
that define when this event

633
00:26:44.600 --> 00:26:45.320
took place.

634
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:47.800
Andrew Dunkley: I'm looking, I'm looking, uh, somewhere

635
00:26:47.800 --> 00:26:50.388
between April 11th and May

636
00:26:50.572 --> 00:26:52.920
22nd, 2024 they think.

637
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:55.580
Professor Fred Watson: Yes. Okay, so these are uh,

638
00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:57.560
images that were taken a couple of years ago,

639
00:26:57.560 --> 00:26:59.240
bit more than a couple of years ago but

640
00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:01.960
nevertheless, uh, still yielding

641
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:05.450
uh, new data and so it's, and uh,

642
00:27:05.660 --> 00:27:08.620
what's I think more striking about this, that

643
00:27:08.620 --> 00:27:10.540
the diameter and depth of the crater

644
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:13.740
uh, are quite impressive. But

645
00:27:14.140 --> 00:27:16.380
when you look at wide angle images

646
00:27:17.140 --> 00:27:20.020
um, you can see that there

647
00:27:20.020 --> 00:27:22.460
is debris spread around for

648
00:27:22.780 --> 00:27:25.740
quite um, you know, quite a big

649
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:28.780
radius, something like seven kilometres wide,

650
00:27:29.360 --> 00:27:31.660
uh, where you've got basically

651
00:27:32.140 --> 00:27:34.540
a lower temperature on the moon's surface.

652
00:27:34.780 --> 00:27:37.760
And that comes about because the, the topsoil

653
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:40.880
has been loosened. Uh, it's the

654
00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:44.240
um, you know, the top few, only the top

655
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:46.800
few centimetres, uh, that have been

656
00:27:47.120 --> 00:27:49.640
stirred up and that's enough to

657
00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:52.519
reveal a different thermal signature from

658
00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:55.120
the moon, uh, so it's actually cooler.

659
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.550
There is a comment um, uh, uh

660
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:01.640
in the report on this that I

661
00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:04.480
read uh, which is um, that

662
00:28:04.600 --> 00:28:07.200
but due to uh,

663
00:28:07.320 --> 00:28:09.800
asteroid impacts and the material that they

664
00:28:09.800 --> 00:28:12.760
eject the top couple of inches

665
00:28:12.760 --> 00:28:15.480
of lunar soil or the top inch or so

666
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:18.080
it's being overturned every

667
00:28:18.080 --> 00:28:21.000
80,000 years. Uh, and that's

668
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:24.040
not that long because we used to think

669
00:28:24.040 --> 00:28:27.040
that the Apollo astronauts footprints would

670
00:28:27.040 --> 00:28:29.640
last forever but they won't. They'll

671
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:32.560
be recirculated by debris

672
00:28:32.560 --> 00:28:35.160
that is um, probably pushed up into

673
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:37.120
the lunar environment, not the lunar

674
00:28:37.120 --> 00:28:38.880
atmosphere because there isn't one, but

675
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:40.360
debris from collisions.

676
00:28:40.360 --> 00:28:42.720
And I think the other important thing about

677
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:44.680
this story is that that

678
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.000
debris, of course, and knowing about debris

679
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:50.400
like that, it's going to play into how you

680
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:53.400
defend um, a moon base. If you've got a

681
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:55.760
moon base on the surface of the moon, no

682
00:28:55.760 --> 00:28:57.480
matter what nationality you're talking about,

683
00:28:58.150 --> 00:29:00.520
uh, you're going to need the structures to be

684
00:29:01.010 --> 00:29:03.890
reasonably robust uh to not

685
00:29:03.890 --> 00:29:06.530
to worry about damage

686
00:29:06.690 --> 00:29:09.650
from material debris that's been

687
00:29:10.290 --> 00:29:12.930
kicked uh, up by impacts on the lunar surface

688
00:29:12.930 --> 00:29:14.530
because those impacts will continue to

689
00:29:14.530 --> 00:29:16.250
happen. There's no atmosphere to slow them

690
00:29:16.250 --> 00:29:16.530
down.

691
00:29:16.930 --> 00:29:19.090
Andrew Dunkley: Now what do they think caused this

692
00:29:19.570 --> 00:29:20.130
crater?

693
00:29:21.650 --> 00:29:24.490
Professor Fred Watson: An object? Um, I think it

694
00:29:24.490 --> 00:29:27.490
was a few metres. I've

695
00:29:27.570 --> 00:29:29.650
got two separate reports on this and I think

696
00:29:29.650 --> 00:29:31.820
that's in the other one. I think it is um,

697
00:29:32.020 --> 00:29:34.510
um, probably a few tens of metres across.

698
00:29:34.910 --> 00:29:35.310
Professor Fred Watson: Right.

699
00:29:35.380 --> 00:29:37.870
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, and that's the

700
00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:41.630
um, you know that that's typical of the

701
00:29:41.630 --> 00:29:44.310
kind of amount of kinetic energy that will be

702
00:29:44.310 --> 00:29:46.870
in uh, something that size. Let me see if I

703
00:29:46.870 --> 00:29:49.710
can find that number. Probably

704
00:29:49.870 --> 00:29:51.470
can, maybe can.

705
00:29:52.430 --> 00:29:54.310
Andrew Dunkley: Speaking, speaking of numbers, this, this

706
00:29:54.310 --> 00:29:57.270
crate is so deep you could put um, three

707
00:29:57.270 --> 00:29:59.630
school buses end to end.

708
00:29:59.630 --> 00:30:02.600
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I saw that. It's got

709
00:30:02.600 --> 00:30:04.080
to be American school buses.

710
00:30:04.080 --> 00:30:05.080
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. And wellness.

711
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:05.960
Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

712
00:30:06.600 --> 00:30:07.960
Andrew Dunkley: And they've got to be yellow.

713
00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:10.120
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I can't find the estimate of

714
00:30:10.840 --> 00:30:13.840
um, the size of the impactor was, but

715
00:30:13.840 --> 00:30:16.520
it would be certainly, um, you know,

716
00:30:16.520 --> 00:30:19.400
something that um, is significant

717
00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:21.380
enough to uh,

718
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:24.580
basically provide that amount of energy, uh,

719
00:30:25.080 --> 00:30:26.440
to make a hole that big.

720
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:29.840
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. And the other thing is it hits the moon

721
00:30:29.840 --> 00:30:31.600
harder than it hits Earth because there's

722
00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:32.680
nothing to slow it down.

723
00:30:32.760 --> 00:30:33.560
Professor Fred Watson: That's correct.

724
00:30:34.100 --> 00:30:36.220
Andrew Dunkley: So it's much more explosive on the lunar

725
00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:39.170
surface than if something like this, uh,

726
00:30:39.170 --> 00:30:41.860
hit Earth. In fact, if this particular rock

727
00:30:41.860 --> 00:30:44.300
had hit Earth, it may not have done much at

728
00:30:44.300 --> 00:30:44.580
all.

729
00:30:45.300 --> 00:30:47.300
Professor Fred Watson: Well, it probably would have exploded in the

730
00:30:47.300 --> 00:30:50.299
atmosphere. Yeah, that's the thing, you

731
00:30:50.299 --> 00:30:52.660
know, like the, um, Chelyabinsk

732
00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:55.540
event back in 2013, was it that,

733
00:30:55.550 --> 00:30:58.180
uh, was something 30 metres across that

734
00:30:58.180 --> 00:31:00.060
exploded in the atmosphere. But if it hit the

735
00:31:00.060 --> 00:31:02.260
ground on the moon, it might have been made

736
00:31:02.260 --> 00:31:04.340
quite a big hole. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I

737
00:31:04.340 --> 00:31:06.880
can't find, um, an estimate of the, um, the

738
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:10.120
size of that from, uh, the size

739
00:31:10.120 --> 00:31:12.330
of the impact crater. But, uh, I'm sure it's

740
00:31:12.330 --> 00:31:15.200
uh, not that far away to

741
00:31:15.360 --> 00:31:16.160
discover it.

742
00:31:16.630 --> 00:31:18.640
Andrew Dunkley: Um, let me see if I can find it.

743
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:21.120
Professor Fred Watson: Thank you. Thank you. That'd be very good.

744
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.800
Andrew Dunkley: That hit the moon

745
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.510
in 20,

746
00:31:27.650 --> 00:31:30.450
25, 20, 24. Uh,

747
00:31:30.450 --> 00:31:31.040
24.

748
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:34.190
Professor Fred Watson: Sorry, that's what you read before.

749
00:31:34.190 --> 00:31:36.360
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. Um,

750
00:31:37.710 --> 00:31:40.510
okay, so, uh, yeah, Magechen

751
00:31:40.510 --> 00:31:42.590
crater. And

752
00:31:43.630 --> 00:31:46.190
they're saying the impactor was roughly 20 to

753
00:31:46.190 --> 00:31:47.230
30 metres across.

754
00:31:47.710 --> 00:31:50.630
Professor Fred Watson: There you go. So, um, what did I just say? 30

755
00:31:50.630 --> 00:31:52.430
metres was the, uh, size of the

756
00:31:52.910 --> 00:31:55.830
Chelyabinsk, uh, impactor. Uh, and this is

757
00:31:55.830 --> 00:31:56.430
probably similar.

758
00:31:56.830 --> 00:31:59.820
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, so a similar kind of rock. So this

759
00:31:59.820 --> 00:32:01.980
is probably one we didn't see in advance by

760
00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:02.710
the sound of it.

761
00:32:02.710 --> 00:32:05.700
Professor Fred Watson: Um, that's correct. Uh, a

762
00:32:05.700 --> 00:32:08.660
30 metre object seen from the distance

763
00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:10.580
of Earth will be virtually invisible.

764
00:32:13.140 --> 00:32:15.020
Bearing in mind that we can't see the, you

765
00:32:15.020 --> 00:32:17.820
know, the landing, the Apollo

766
00:32:17.820 --> 00:32:19.740
landing sites with any terrestrial

767
00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:21.220
telescopes, we can certainly see them from

768
00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:23.140
Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter and see what's

769
00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:26.090
left there, but can't see it from a. Yeah,

770
00:32:26.090 --> 00:32:26.730
okay.

771
00:32:27.300 --> 00:32:30.090
Andrew Dunkley: Uh, you can read all about it, uh, on the

772
00:32:30.170 --> 00:32:32.730
NASA website. Uh, it's a

773
00:32:32.730 --> 00:32:35.210
fantastic site to visit. So much great stuff

774
00:32:35.210 --> 00:32:37.770
there. Uh, that brings us to

775
00:32:37.850 --> 00:32:39.810
the end of our show. Fred Watson, thank you

776
00:32:39.810 --> 00:32:40.250
so much.

777
00:32:40.330 --> 00:32:43.050
Professor Fred Watson: Oh, it's a pleasure, Andrew. Always good to

778
00:32:43.050 --> 00:32:44.930
talk about these things, even when they are

779
00:32:44.930 --> 00:32:45.690
weapons in space.

780
00:32:45.930 --> 00:32:48.340
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah, well, we know now, so, um,

781
00:32:50.090 --> 00:32:51.610
Very good. We'll catch you soon, Fred Watson.

782
00:32:51.610 --> 00:32:54.290
Thank you. Um, and in the meantime, visit us

783
00:32:54.290 --> 00:32:56.880
online at spacenutspodcast.com or

784
00:32:56.950 --> 00:32:59.710
spacenuts IO have a look around, visit the

785
00:32:59.710 --> 00:33:02.230
shop, Send, um, us messages and questions. On

786
00:33:02.230 --> 00:33:04.150
the Ask me anything button at the top, it's

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00:33:04.150 --> 00:33:06.990
labelled ama. And maybe sign up

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for, um, a copy of, uh, the AstroDailyPod

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Newsfeed if you like. And please

790
00:33:12.630 --> 00:33:15.270
leave reviews wherever you listen to or

791
00:33:15.270 --> 00:33:17.990
watch us. And thanks to Huw in the studio,

792
00:33:17.990 --> 00:33:19.710
who couldn't be with us. I've got to go bail

793
00:33:19.710 --> 00:33:21.230
him out again because he's been throwing

794
00:33:21.230 --> 00:33:23.870
large rocks at people. And from me, Andrew

795
00:33:23.870 --> 00:33:25.510
Dunkley, thanks for your company. We'll see

796
00:33:25.510 --> 00:33:28.070
you on the next episode of Space Nuts. Bye

797
00:33:28.070 --> 00:33:28.390
bye.

798
00:33:28.930 --> 00:33:31.050
Space Nuts. You've been listening to the

799
00:33:31.050 --> 00:33:32.450
Space Nuts podcast,

800
00:33:34.050 --> 00:33:36.770
available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

801
00:33:37.010 --> 00:33:39.770
iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast

802
00:33:39.770 --> 00:33:41.490
player. You can also stream on

803
00:33:41.490 --> 00:33:44.450
demand@bytes.com. this has been another

804
00:33:44.450 --> 00:33:46.490
quality podcast production from

805
00:33:46.490 --> 00:33:47.650
bytes.um.com.