The Dark Matter Hint That Could Rewrite Physics

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Andrew Dunkley: Hello again. Thanks for joining us on Space

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Nuts where we talk astronomy and space

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science. My name is Andrew Dunkley. Thanks

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for joining us. We've got a jam packed

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programme today, lots of things happening.

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Uh, Casey from Colorado, one of our regular Q

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and A contributors, uh, uh, put

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a post on Facebook and I believe

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sent through an email to us saying

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have we found dark matter? Well, according

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to uh, the Lux Zeppelin uh,

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scientists, there's a tiny weeny,

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small chance we might have.

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Yeah, I think that's the best way to describe

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it. Uh, there's a wonderful storey

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uh, involving outback astronomy and

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there's been a new Saturn Decagon

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discovered. We'll tell you all about that and

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a couple of upcoming missions. China is

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uh, planning a sample return mission to Mars

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and they've uh, whittled down their 84

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potential landing zones to 12. And I think

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they're going to get it down to less than

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that perhaps. Uh, and another similar

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mission headed for Titan. We'll talk

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about all of that on this episode of Space

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Nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space Nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3. 2. 1. 2, 3, 4,

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5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Space

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Nuts astronauts report it feels good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And joining us again is Professor Fred Watson

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Watson, astronomer at large.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hello Fred Watson. Hi Andrew. How are you

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doing?

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Andrew Dunkley: I am well.

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Professor Fred Watson: How are, um, still nursing a new

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knee. But uh, the great thing of

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course always when you've had a um,

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replacement knee is that day by day it gets

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better. Whereas before the operation day by

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day it gets worse.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, well that makes a lot of sense. You

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wouldn't want it the other way around.

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Professor Fred Watson: No, you wouldn't. That's right.

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Andrew Dunkley: Well if it was the other way around you

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wouldn't need a knee operation. There you

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are. Okay.

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Uh, we should get straight into it because

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we've got a lot of topics to discuss

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and our first storey,

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uh, I know you've done a bit of radio on this

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one, uh, but uh, Casey in Colorado sent this

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one through and

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physicists at the Lux Zeppelin detector in

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the United States think they may have,

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may have uncovered

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dark matter. This would be extraordinary

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if they have. Now the odds are pretty low

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but they haven't said it's definitely

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not dark matter. Would that be a fair

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assessment?

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. Um, actually I'm looking

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at um, uh, the wrong

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uh, script on this at the moment and in fact

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I'm struggling to see anything because I've

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got a migraine going on here at the moment.

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Do you get those where you just get this

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lovely Zigzag pattern and cross your face.

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Andrew Dunkley: No, I'm very lucky, but my brother and sister

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both get, uh, those kinds of, uh, headaches.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, listen, there's no headache. There's no

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headache with it. It's just this

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extraordinary pattern that has ticked, uh,

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about half an hour to mature. It starts off

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in the middle of your field of view when you

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can't see anything, and then it, uh, broadens

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out and it's, um, something I've observed

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since, uh. I think the first time I remember

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it. I was about 16. The first time I remember

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noticing it.

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Andrew Dunkley: You know what? I used to have that.

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Professor Fred Watson: There you go.

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Andrew Dunkley: And I couldn't explain. I never got it

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checked out. I just thought it was my eyes

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doing stupid things. But I used to have a

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zigzag in my vision and

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it happened only a few months ago and

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hasn't happened again since. But it used to

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be quite regular and now it's very rare.

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Well, there you go.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Wow.

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Professor Fred Watson: It's, uh, basically a spasm

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in a nerve in your brain. And

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the reason, you know, it's something going on

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in your brain is that it's in both eyes. It's

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not, you know, you can't distinguish between

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the two. I'm so sorry to have diverted.

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Andrew Dunkley: No, no, it's fascinating. Well, you've

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actually alerted me to something that I

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didn't even know existed.

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Professor Fred Watson: There you go. That's a, uh. It's a, uh,

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headachless, uh, migraine. And it's.

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Yeah, they sometimes come with quite

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striking colours as well. This one's fairly

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benign, the one I'm looking at at the moment.

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Andrew Dunkley: But it can disrupt what you're trying to do.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it's not. Not good if you're driving.

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Andrew Dunkley: No, definitely not.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Yeah. So sorry, um, about that.

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Andrew Dunkley: No, I'm gobsmacked because I never knew it

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was a thing.

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Professor Fred Watson: It is a thing. It is a thing. And you had it,

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you see, and you didn'. It needs me to tell

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you what you. What your ailments are.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, but back to Dark matter.

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Maybe, um, migraines are caused by dark

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matter interaction. So, um, as,

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uh, I think probably all our listeners know

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because we go on about this stuff

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interminably, the evidence for Dark

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Matter prime primarily

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has come from the astronomy world

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because we see evidence that,

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uh, there is material in the universe.

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Universe which we cannot detect. Uh,

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and that, uh, evidence ranges from galaxies

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spinning faster than they ought to, if all

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that's there is normal matter, uh,

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to what we call gravitational microlensing,

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uh, where, um, objects, uh,

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galaxies or gravitational lensing, rather

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than microlensing galaxies in deep space,

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uh, their dark matter halos act as a lens and

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you can see its effect on the stars behind.

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And that lets you plot out where the dark

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matter lies. And we know dark matter is where

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normal matter is. So, um, it's some

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stuff that is real. Uh, but the

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conjecture has always been that if

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it interacts with normal

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matter at all, it is

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extremely rarely. In other words, you know,

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you need gazillions of collisions, uh,

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between matter and dark matter

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for one of them to produce a

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measurable signal. Um,

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and so that is the basis of some of the

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detectors that have been built around the

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world to try and detect dark matter, um,

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directly. Um, and in fact, there's

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one here in Australia, Um, it's at a place

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called Stoyle, uh, in Victoria. Uh,

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it's down a gold mine, I think. Uh, you bury

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these things deep in the Earth so that you're

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minimising terrestrial effects. You minimise

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anything that could be happening, uh, near

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the surface. Um, and what you do is

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you typically. And the one that we're. I

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should just go straight to the one that we're

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talking about. It's an experiment, uh, at

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the Sanford Underground Research

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Facility, uh, in South

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Dakota. Uh, and that

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is an experiment called Lux

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Zeppelin, usually, uh, abbreviated to

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lz, I guess it would be, rather than lz.

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Lz. Uh, that, uh, is

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an experiment that, if I remember rightly, I

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don't have my notes in front of me on this.

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Um, it's got, uh, something like

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about, I think it's 10 tonnes

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of liquid xenon,

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something that's normal temperature and

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pressure, but it's liquefied. So 10 tonnes of

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this stuff deep underground. And what you

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do is you have a tank which is festooned with

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photo detectors. So if

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anything flashed in the,

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in the tank of xenon, uh, you could

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identify it. And more especially, uh,

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because you've got lots of detectors, you

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could, uh, track a

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particle if that's, you know, the

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way it goes, because you've got multiple

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detectors which are all active all the time.

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So, uh, that is

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where it's got to in terms of the experiment.

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But, uh, what's happened is

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they've detected a flash.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, which, um, is a result.

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Uh, I think it was announced, um, only a few

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days ago, first of September. Um,

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uh,

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in many ways it's the first hint, certainly

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the first hint that's come from the usa, uh,

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that maybe one of these collisions has been

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Observed. Now, um, I'm not a particle

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physicist, Andrew, as you know. I'm supposed

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to be an astronomer. Probably am actually, in

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some ways. Um, and, uh,

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the. Uh. So I'm not sure of

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the exact nature of the observation,

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whether they observe, uh,

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this flash in different wavelengths, in other

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words, using different filters, uh, and can

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analyse what the spectrum of that flash looks

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like or whether it's something more subtle

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than that. Uh, but that is what

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is currently going on now. And I

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think, uh, the surprise is

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that this thing has a relatively low energy.

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Uh, it's a slow particle.

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Uh, and, um, they're talking about energies

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of. I think it's in the region of

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250, uh, kilo

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electron volts, kev, 248 kev of

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energy in the detector. Um. Now, the

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Large Hadron Collider collides

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particles up to, uh,

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teravolt energies. Uh, so

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a kilovolt and a teravolt are very wide

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apart. But that's an interesting aspect of

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this. So I think it's one of these storeys

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that, um. Um. Uh,

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will evolve. Um, I mentioned a minute ago

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that this was the first time it's been

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detected or there's any kind of detection in

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the U.S. and that's because there's an

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experiment at, uh, uh, a

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facility called Gran Sasso National

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Laboratories, which is in Italy,

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uh, and there's one in China too. Um, which

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I think, uh, these.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh.

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Professor Fred Watson: Certainly the Italian one has picked

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up things before and there's evidence

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from the Italian operators that they thought

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they'd found a. Uh. And I think we talked

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about this on Spacenuts. They thought they'd

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found a seasonal variation in

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the flux of what might be dark matter.

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Uh, but that's not been replicated

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anywhere else. I think that was one of the

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reasons why the Stoyle facility was, uh,

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initiated down in Victoria. Um, in order

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to cheque whether this is real, this

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storey that's coming from Italy, um,

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unfortunately, I can't read anymore in my

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book. Has got these zigzags across

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the field of view, which are interesting in

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their own right. But, um, I think that's the

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bottom line there.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I think they're saying, look, it could

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be, uh, the odds of it being a

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dark matter discovery are, uh, 0.5%.

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I think they're quoting.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, isn't that the odds that it's

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not real? I can't remember which way.

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Andrew Dunkley: Is that what they're saying?

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Professor Fred Watson: I need to just look at that again.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I'M trying to find it now.

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Professor Fred Watson: You know we think in terms of um,

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sigma, the number of standard deviations.

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Uh, um, this doesn't, I think five sigma is

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the normal acceptance for a fact. This I

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don't think is anywhere near that. But it's

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still, I think it's still got quite a high

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level of probability attached to it. Uh, and

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just to clarify, I'm sorry, um, uh, what I

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said was just a bit misleading. That

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248 kilo

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electron volts is actually a

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recoil, that's a recoil of a particle.

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Um, and so they can deduce from that that it

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would be uh, at least

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200 giga electron volts that your dark matter

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particle uh, would have

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to work out. That's quite an interesting.

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Andrew Dunkley: I found it, uh, the team reached what is

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known as 2.6-sigma, a

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0.5% chance that the event could be

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explained by known backgrounds.

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Uh, and that is still below a five sigma

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threshold needed to confirm a discovery. So

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there you go. Bit more complicated than what

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I thought.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, but it's uh, intriguing.

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It's. You know this could just be the first

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chink in new physics that we've

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been looking for that might give us an

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explanation for what dark matter is.

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Andrew Dunkley: Indeed, uh, they've published their findings

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in the archive. It is yet to

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be uh, peer reviewed but I'm sure it

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will be,

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Professor Fred Watson: it'll be reviewed to death. You can believe

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it.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Uh, you can also read

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about it on the ABC Science website.

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Yes, this is space Nuts. Andrew Dunkley here

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with Professor Fred Watson Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: Tranquilly Base here. The eagle has landed.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space nets.

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Andrew Dunkley: This storey Fred Watson I love, uh, because

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it involves an outback astronomer. Uh,

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it is uh, a new decagon

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that's been discovered on Saturn uh, around

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its south pole. And Trevor Barry has

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made the news uh, out of Broken Hill in

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Outback New South Wales because uh, he was a

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part of this find.

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Professor Fred Watson: Absolutely. Trevor's an old friend. Trevor

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and I go back to the mid-1990s when he first

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visited me at Siding Spring Observatory and

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we hit it off and we've been in touch ever

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since. Um, he, let's uh, just

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do the Trevor bit of the storey. Um because

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this is certainly a double barreled

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storey here. Uh, he um,

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discovered uh, astronomy when he was a, he

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wasn't a miner, he was a mine worker in the,

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I think he was a fitter actually in the mines

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in Broken Hill. Uh, and um,

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one of his colleagues built a telescope and

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had a look through it at the planet Saturn

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and has been hooked ever since. Um, and built

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a succession of telescopes which are

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impressive. I've seen uh, the one that he

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uses currently it's a 400 millimetre

338
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telescope, homemade. Some of its components

339
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came from an old washing machine. It's great

340
00:14:05.620 --> 00:14:08.420
stuff. It's kind of you know the absolute

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um ah essence in a way of

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good amateur astronomy. But with that

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telescope he observes Saturn. Uh I think

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actually it's not just Saturn. He cheques out

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other giant planets as well but Saturn is

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certainly his area of

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speciality and he cheques it out

348
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every clear night. And that was why he

349
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got co opted onto the Cassini team

350
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back in the early 2000s with uh, Carolyn

351
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Porco, uh, the image uh scientist

352
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of uh Cassini. Um, uh Trevor

353
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was the one that said uh there's a storm in

354
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Saturn's northern hemisphere, you might want

355
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to take a look at it with Cassini because of

356
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course the Cassini spacecraft didn't have the

357
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global view of Saturn, it just had its

358
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instruments that could be pointed in any

359
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direction. Uh whereas Trevor with his

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telescope could see where the activity was

361
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and he was their ah, guide. Uh

362
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so of course he received lots of honours from

363
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that. Um, I know he has spent a lot of

364
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time studying uh, the north

365
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polar hexagon of Saturn and

366
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that's a feature that was uh discovered

367
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actually by the Voyager spacecraft back in

368
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the 1980s but was uh,

369
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analysed deeply by the Cassini

370
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mission. So this is a, it's a jet stream. Uh

371
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it is a very, very

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regular hexagon. Uh it almost

373
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looks as though there should be a spanner

374
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somewhere nearby because it's that shape. Um

375
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and it's formed by, it's basically a

376
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six peaked wave that's formed in a circle.

377
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:48.550
Uh but it looks like a hexagon. You wouldn't

378
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be able to take a spanner to it because each

379
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side of the hexagon is 2,000 kilometres

380
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bigger than the diameter of the Earth. Uh so

381
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this is large. Now, now Trevor has studied

382
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the hexagon in great detail but of course one

383
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of the, and he's got papers with his

384
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colleagues from NASA and elsewhere with that.

385
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Uh, one of the um, things that has

386
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puzzled astronomers, excuse me astronomers

387
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is um why isn't the one in

388
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the South Pole, why isn't there a hexagon or

389
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something like it near the southern polar

390
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region? And so that is something Trevor has

391
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long kept an eye on working with his

392
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colleagues, um one of whom is actually in

393
00:16:26.450 --> 00:16:29.190
Spain. In fact uh, we were very close to his

394
00:16:29.190 --> 00:16:31.830
colleague Augustine Works. Uh, we were very

395
00:16:31.830 --> 00:16:34.670
close to where it is, um, about a

396
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month ago when we were there for the eclipse.

397
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Um, the bottom line is that

398
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within the last three years they've

399
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started seeing evidence of something fishy

400
00:16:45.950 --> 00:16:48.670
going on which has now been followed up by

401
00:16:48.670 --> 00:16:50.590
the Hubble telescope. And what has been

402
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revealed is not a hexagon

403
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but a decagon, a ten sided uh,

404
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figure around the south pole of

405
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Saturn. And the big difference between

406
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that and the hexagon, we don't know how old

407
00:17:05.230 --> 00:17:07.030
the hexagon is, we don't know how long it's

408
00:17:07.030 --> 00:17:09.950
been there. But we do know that this decagon

409
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has only been there since 2023. It's probably

410
00:17:12.390 --> 00:17:15.200
still in the process of formation. Um,

411
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and so this is the result of the,

412
00:17:18.510 --> 00:17:20.470
or the um, announcement that's been made in

413
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this paper within the last couple of weeks in

414
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Science Advances. Trevor is

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absolutely over the moon. Uh, he

416
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me an email when the paper was released. Uh,

417
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and you could tell he was bursting with

418
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delight as to what's happened. He's had um,

419
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as always when Trevor makes a discovery

420
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because he's the, you know, the astronomer of

421
00:17:38.890 --> 00:17:41.010
Broken Hill, he gets a lot of media, uh,

422
00:17:41.010 --> 00:17:43.770
coverage and quite rightly too, uh, this

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00:17:43.770 --> 00:17:45.490
year saw the publication of a book on his

424
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life, Outback Astronomer, which is a, uh,

425
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very nice book. Uh, I was privileged to write

426
00:17:49.770 --> 00:17:52.530
the foreword for it. Um, so it's one to look

427
00:17:52.530 --> 00:17:54.250
out for if you're interested in following

428
00:17:54.490 --> 00:17:57.250
Trevor's career. More especially though, if

429
00:17:57.250 --> 00:17:59.600
you're interested in following the decagon,

430
00:17:59.830 --> 00:18:02.750
there's really good news and that is that

431
00:18:02.750 --> 00:18:05.430
at the moment Saturn, where it is in its

432
00:18:05.430 --> 00:18:07.750
orbit, it's moving towards

433
00:18:08.470 --> 00:18:10.910
the southern summer

434
00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:13.910
solstice, which means that the south polar

435
00:18:13.910 --> 00:18:16.870
region um, of Saturn

436
00:18:17.030 --> 00:18:19.950
is tilted towards the inner solar

437
00:18:19.950 --> 00:18:22.640
system, in other words towards us. Uh,

438
00:18:22.950 --> 00:18:25.670
and so the solstice is uh, I think it's April

439
00:18:25.670 --> 00:18:28.570
2020, 2032. So between now

440
00:18:28.570 --> 00:18:30.970
and then we'll get better and better views of

441
00:18:30.970 --> 00:18:33.850
this decagon, assuming it lasts. I mean

442
00:18:33.850 --> 00:18:36.210
it could be something that is so temporary it

443
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just collapses, but it's definitely there.

444
00:18:38.510 --> 00:18:41.450
Uh, it's easy to find pictures um, of it for

445
00:18:41.450 --> 00:18:43.290
our listeners who might want to chase it up

446
00:18:43.290 --> 00:18:45.970
on the web. Um, it's um, yeah, so a great

447
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discovery with a lovely backstory as well

448
00:18:48.170 --> 00:18:50.770
concerning somebody who's uh, I think very

449
00:18:50.770 --> 00:18:51.980
special in the world of astronomy.

450
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Andrew Dunkley: Me, uh, even right down to his corrugated

451
00:18:54.930 --> 00:18:57.010
ironclad observatory.

452
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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right, absolutely. It's

453
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got all the bells and whistles I think

454
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I remember, um, I need to cheque it in.

455
00:19:05.290 --> 00:19:07.530
Outback Astronomer. One of his telescopes is

456
00:19:07.530 --> 00:19:09.700
called Fred Watson. Um and um,

457
00:19:10.690 --> 00:19:13.420
he's made it into an acronym. But um, uh,

458
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um, he's done me the honour of naming his

459
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telescope.

460
00:19:17.810 --> 00:19:20.450
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah, there's a fabulous storey

461
00:19:20.690 --> 00:19:23.690
on the ABC about him. Uh, if you

462
00:19:23.690 --> 00:19:25.830
want look it up, uh, should be easy to find.

463
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Just do a search for Trevor Barry,

464
00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:31.830
uh, ABC and uh, it'll pop up. Um, you

465
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can read the published paper

466
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in the journal Science Advances. But uh,

467
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yeah, great storey, great local connection

468
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and congratulations to Trevor and everybody

469
00:19:42.750 --> 00:19:45.190
involved. And I forgot to say thank you to

470
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Casey for um, um, sending us that

471
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first storey about Lux Zeppelin. This is

472
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Space Nuts, the podcast and the radio show

473
00:19:53.870 --> 00:19:56.690
on Community, um, Radio Across Australia with

474
00:19:56.690 --> 00:19:58.650
Andrew Dunkley and Fred Watson Watson.

475
00:20:01.210 --> 00:20:03.570
0G and I feel fine Space

476
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Nuts.

477
00:20:04.330 --> 00:20:06.250
Now we've got a double bunger Storey here

478
00:20:06.250 --> 00:20:08.730
because they're of a similar ilk in very

479
00:20:08.730 --> 00:20:11.370
different parts of the solar system. Uh, and

480
00:20:11.370 --> 00:20:13.690
the first part of this storey involves China

481
00:20:14.570 --> 00:20:17.490
and they're um, getting right

482
00:20:17.490 --> 00:20:20.170
down to the nuts and bolts. Nothing to do

483
00:20:20.170 --> 00:20:23.050
with Saturn's south pole, but right

484
00:20:23.050 --> 00:20:24.770
down to the nuts and bolts of finding

485
00:20:24.770 --> 00:20:27.290
somewhere to land on Mars for

486
00:20:28.100 --> 00:20:30.580
a sample return mission.

487
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Looking for ancient life. This is very

488
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exciting.

489
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Professor Fred Watson: It is. Um, and I think this is going to

490
00:20:37.900 --> 00:20:40.420
um, I think it's something that's going to

491
00:20:41.540 --> 00:20:44.020
not go unnoticed in the halls of

492
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NASA. Uh, because of course

493
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NASA has perseverance on the surface of Mars

494
00:20:49.020 --> 00:20:51.540
at the moment which has gathered up all these

495
00:20:51.540 --> 00:20:54.260
samples of soil and dirt

496
00:20:54.340 --> 00:20:57.230
from the surface of Mars. I, it's

497
00:20:57.230 --> 00:20:59.350
more than 20 samples I think they've got now

498
00:20:59.350 --> 00:21:01.750
which have been left in little containers

499
00:21:01.990 --> 00:21:04.030
with the idea of picking them up to bring

500
00:21:04.030 --> 00:21:06.330
them back to Earth, ah for um,

501
00:21:06.710 --> 00:21:09.150
analysis on our planet. But at the moment

502
00:21:09.150 --> 00:21:11.030
there's no mission planned to do that.

503
00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:13.270
Andrew Dunkley: No, they've just left them lying around like.

504
00:21:13.270 --> 00:21:14.710
Just like a dog would do.

505
00:21:14.870 --> 00:21:17.710
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, exactly. Whereas

506
00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:20.310
China, um, uh, they've,

507
00:21:20.470 --> 00:21:22.870
they're planning a mission that will actually

508
00:21:23.890 --> 00:21:26.210
do it all. Basically it'll

509
00:21:27.330 --> 00:21:30.130
have um, a lander on the surface with a rover

510
00:21:30.210 --> 00:21:33.210
which will scout around. I've got a

511
00:21:33.210 --> 00:21:35.770
feeling there's a drone involved as well. Um,

512
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:39.650
ah, it's going to cheque

513
00:21:39.650 --> 00:21:42.530
out good sites, it'll drill

514
00:21:42.530 --> 00:21:45.290
and I think the drill goes is the

515
00:21:45.290 --> 00:21:47.730
idea is to go down up to 2 metres which is

516
00:21:48.050 --> 00:21:50.700
actually what ESA's ExoMars as um,

517
00:21:50.710 --> 00:21:53.550
rover is planning to do, uh, grab

518
00:21:53.550 --> 00:21:56.310
samples and then send them back to Earth,

519
00:21:56.780 --> 00:21:59.430
uh, more or less immediately. And

520
00:21:59.430 --> 00:22:02.310
so this Is, you

521
00:22:02.310 --> 00:22:05.110
know, if that happens before we get the

522
00:22:05.110 --> 00:22:07.350
perseverance samples back, I think a lot of

523
00:22:07.350 --> 00:22:09.620
people are going to be miffed about that. Um,

524
00:22:09.620 --> 00:22:12.030
what would be even more spectacular would be

525
00:22:12.030 --> 00:22:14.630
if there were signs of past life among the

526
00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:17.510
Tianwen 3 Mars sample returns.

527
00:22:17.990 --> 00:22:20.610
So, um, it's an exciting, um, uh,

528
00:22:21.130 --> 00:22:23.930
project. I think 2028 is when

529
00:22:24.890 --> 00:22:27.610
the launch is going

530
00:22:27.610 --> 00:22:30.410
to take place. Two spacecraft will

531
00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:31.850
actually be launched. There'll be two launch

532
00:22:31.850 --> 00:22:34.690
vehicles, um, one, I think, for the

533
00:22:34.690 --> 00:22:37.570
lander and rover, one for the orbiter and the

534
00:22:37.570 --> 00:22:40.530
return spacecraft. Uh, so as you said.

535
00:22:40.530 --> 00:22:43.050
Quite right. They had 86 candidate sites

536
00:22:43.050 --> 00:22:45.770
originally. They've narrowed it down, uh, to

537
00:22:46.470 --> 00:22:48.100
uh, a dozen. Is that right?

538
00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:49.180
Andrew Dunkley: I think it was 12.

539
00:22:49.180 --> 00:22:52.060
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're all

540
00:22:52.060 --> 00:22:54.620
in, I think, a similar part of Mars's

541
00:22:54.620 --> 00:22:57.380
equatorial region. Places where we know

542
00:22:57.460 --> 00:23:00.340
that there are clays, and of course clays are

543
00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:04.180
minerals that were formed in water, um, and

544
00:23:04.180 --> 00:23:06.660
they are good at preserving organic molecules

545
00:23:06.980 --> 00:23:09.620
and maybe, uh, give us more,

546
00:23:09.870 --> 00:23:12.660
um, more of a chance of finding evidence

547
00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:15.100
of past life there, you know, DNA evidence or

548
00:23:15.100 --> 00:23:17.400
something of that sort. Yeah. So, um,

549
00:23:18.080 --> 00:23:20.920
is exciting news and I, um, I think

550
00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.800
it's um, you know, it's, it's hats off to

551
00:23:23.800 --> 00:23:26.720
the China national, uh, Space Administration,

552
00:23:27.390 --> 00:23:30.120
um, for, for the plans that they're carrying

553
00:23:30.120 --> 00:23:30.400
out.

554
00:23:30.560 --> 00:23:33.280
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, Indeed, it's the Tianwen

555
00:23:33.360 --> 00:23:35.880
3 mission because they've already done it

556
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.760
twice in the past, um, landing things on

557
00:23:38.760 --> 00:23:40.840
Mars. But, um, I, I do believe there is a

558
00:23:40.840 --> 00:23:43.680
copter involved. I can see that in

559
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.870
the right, uh, in the storey there. I just

560
00:23:46.870 --> 00:23:48.630
can't find any reference to it, but I think

561
00:23:48.630 --> 00:23:51.390
they've got a. Yeah, it looks like

562
00:23:51.390 --> 00:23:53.710
it does ground tracking from

563
00:23:54.510 --> 00:23:57.350
the sky, but, uh, a little drone. Yeah.

564
00:23:57.350 --> 00:23:59.230
Professor Fred Watson: Now we know drones work on Mars.

565
00:23:59.230 --> 00:24:01.390
Andrew Dunkley: They do, yeah. Ah, fantastic.

566
00:24:01.870 --> 00:24:04.790
And they will, um, be launching

567
00:24:04.790 --> 00:24:07.550
this probably in 2028,

568
00:24:08.190 --> 00:24:08.990
is that right?

569
00:24:09.390 --> 00:24:12.270
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, late 2028, yes. Uh, two separate

570
00:24:12.270 --> 00:24:13.710
long March 5th rockets.

571
00:24:14.950 --> 00:24:17.790
Andrew Dunkley: And so we may have answers in the

572
00:24:17.790 --> 00:24:19.510
not too distant future, all things being

573
00:24:19.510 --> 00:24:22.350
equal, which, um, is fantastic. We wish them

574
00:24:22.350 --> 00:24:23.430
well with the mission.

575
00:24:23.750 --> 00:24:26.230
There is a similar mission, speaking of NASA,

576
00:24:26.770 --> 00:24:29.590
um, which is headed to Titan,

577
00:24:29.670 --> 00:24:32.370
Uh, they're looking at a 2028 launch, uh,

578
00:24:32.670 --> 00:24:35.670
as well. Um, and

579
00:24:35.830 --> 00:24:38.430
they're off to Titan and they should get

580
00:24:38.430 --> 00:24:41.350
there in 2034 if they don't forget to

581
00:24:41.350 --> 00:24:43.580
pay their tolls along the way. Uh,

582
00:24:44.070 --> 00:24:47.010
this miss, uh, the Dragonfly

583
00:24:47.010 --> 00:24:48.850
mission, I think we have mentioned it before,

584
00:24:48.850 --> 00:24:49.250
but.

585
00:24:49.250 --> 00:24:49.970
Professor Fred Watson: We have, yes.

586
00:24:49.970 --> 00:24:52.290
Andrew Dunkley: It's getting ever closer and

587
00:24:53.070 --> 00:24:54.930
um, they're really getting to the pointy end.

588
00:24:54.930 --> 00:24:55.810
By the sound of it.

589
00:24:57.010 --> 00:24:59.570
Professor Fred Watson: That's right. So um, and the

590
00:24:59.570 --> 00:25:02.490
announcement's very similar coming from the

591
00:25:02.490 --> 00:25:04.930
Dragonfly team. They've basically

592
00:25:05.090 --> 00:25:07.930
decided where they are going to land

593
00:25:07.930 --> 00:25:09.970
on Titan. It is

594
00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:13.330
uh, an area called

595
00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:16.770
uh, um, Amakik Undei

596
00:25:17.570 --> 00:25:20.120
which is a region of dunes. Um

597
00:25:20.450 --> 00:25:23.410
and dunes are uh, these are probably

598
00:25:23.410 --> 00:25:25.970
dunes of ice actually ice

599
00:25:26.210 --> 00:25:29.210
particles rather than sand. But uh, there's a

600
00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:32.010
crater called the Salk Crater which this

601
00:25:32.010 --> 00:25:34.840
dune region is to the south of. Uh,

602
00:25:34.840 --> 00:25:37.210
they think it is a uh, really

603
00:25:37.210 --> 00:25:38.850
interesting geologically

604
00:25:39.580 --> 00:25:41.950
ah, productive region.

605
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.390
Uh and the idea is

606
00:25:45.550 --> 00:25:48.310
to give the drone, uh you

607
00:25:48.310 --> 00:25:50.910
know, as much of a variety of landscape

608
00:25:51.360 --> 00:25:53.950
uh as possible to cheque out.

609
00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:57.240
Um, this is the Dragonfly drone. I uh,

610
00:25:57.310 --> 00:25:59.470
think it's an octocopter if I remember

611
00:25:59.470 --> 00:26:01.790
rightly. So I think

612
00:26:02.110 --> 00:26:04.550
there's a sort of range of hills and

613
00:26:04.550 --> 00:26:07.230
mountains at the edge of this region. And so

614
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.160
um, that's the plan to go there with a

615
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.520
3.3 year uh, primary mission.

616
00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:15.880
Uh and as I'm reading

617
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:18.600
a little blog post here, uh, about

618
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:22.480
uh, what is going to um, be done

619
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:24.360
with Dragonfly comes from Leonard David.

620
00:26:25.360 --> 00:26:27.480
Um, once Dragonfly reaches Titan the

621
00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:30.120
rotorcraft will conduct a uh, 3.3 year

622
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:32.760
primary mission exploring diverse

623
00:26:32.760 --> 00:26:35.440
environments from organic dunes to deposits

624
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.120
associated with Salt Crater, a place where

625
00:26:38.120 --> 00:26:40.340
liquid water and complex organic, organic

626
00:26:40.340 --> 00:26:43.060
materials key to life once existed

627
00:26:43.060 --> 00:26:45.140
together. Remembering of course that the

628
00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:47.860
surface of Titan is at about -190

629
00:26:47.860 --> 00:26:48.900
degrees Celsius.

630
00:26:49.780 --> 00:26:52.700
Andrew Dunkley: How is something made on Earth

631
00:26:52.700 --> 00:26:55.380
like the Dragonfly spacecraft and more

632
00:26:55.380 --> 00:26:57.660
particularly the equipment they're going to

633
00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:00.420
put down at Selk Crater or that area

634
00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:03.180
going to survive that long in such a hostile

635
00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:04.900
environment? It's not a nice place.

636
00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:07.940
Professor Fred Watson: No, not really, no. Uh, it's got quite high

637
00:27:07.940 --> 00:27:09.780
atmospheric pressure so that'll make the

638
00:27:09.780 --> 00:27:12.560
drone easier to fly. That's

639
00:27:12.560 --> 00:27:14.400
one of the challenges with Mars of course

640
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:16.880
flying the um, the helicopter

641
00:27:17.140 --> 00:27:19.990
um, on Mars was the fact that it uh,

642
00:27:20.080 --> 00:27:22.960
Mars has a atmospheric pressure less than 1%

643
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.160
of the Earth. So ingenuity. The helicopter

644
00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:28.040
had to, had ah to have big wings. Uh, perhaps

645
00:27:28.040 --> 00:27:30.480
the drone, uh, the Dragonfly drone won't need

646
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:32.840
quite as much. But really interesting uh,

647
00:27:32.840 --> 00:27:35.720
project though and one that we um,

648
00:27:35.840 --> 00:27:37.490
will continue to watch with interest and

649
00:27:37.560 --> 00:27:37.960
Andrew.

650
00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.020
Andrew Dunkley: We will, yeah. And both those missions um,

651
00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:43.280
coming up very very soon. So uh, we're

652
00:27:43.280 --> 00:27:46.280
um, yeah, uh, only a few years away from

653
00:27:46.280 --> 00:27:48.840
getting maybe potential answers to some of

654
00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:51.640
those great questions that we've been

655
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:54.520
asking for decades and decades.

656
00:27:54.520 --> 00:27:56.760
Yes, indeed. Uh, you can

657
00:27:57.720 --> 00:27:59.960
um, read that storey on the website

658
00:28:00.040 --> 00:28:01.960
leonarddavid.com.

659
00:28:02.420 --> 00:28:04.080
uh, before we finish up, Fred Watson, I just

660
00:28:04.080 --> 00:28:06.280
wanted to sort of do some shouting out. Um,

661
00:28:06.280 --> 00:28:08.960
we've got a listener that refers to him or

662
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:11.740
her as the web pro in Chile listening to

663
00:28:11.740 --> 00:28:14.740
us or watching us on YouTube live today.

664
00:28:15.140 --> 00:28:17.700
And hello to Emily. This is.

665
00:28:17.860 --> 00:28:20.500
She says watching us is cool. I think it's

666
00:28:20.500 --> 00:28:22.980
very cool. She's listening from an offshore

667
00:28:23.140 --> 00:28:26.060
oil rig, uh, oil and gas rig in the

668
00:28:26.060 --> 00:28:27.940
Indian Ocean off the coast of Western

669
00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:29.940
Australia. So, um. Hi, Emily.

670
00:28:31.700 --> 00:28:34.540
We were on a ship crossing that area a bit

671
00:28:34.540 --> 00:28:36.620
over a year ago. So, um, yeah,

672
00:28:37.100 --> 00:28:40.020
it's, um, lovely to have you listening along

673
00:28:40.020 --> 00:28:43.020
and everybody who's watching actually on our

674
00:28:43.020 --> 00:28:45.740
YouTube channel. We are done. Fred Watson,

675
00:28:45.740 --> 00:28:47.260
thank you, uh, so much.

676
00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:49.600
Professor Fred Watson: It's a pleasure. Always. Good. And, um,

677
00:28:49.740 --> 00:28:52.700
thanks, Andrew, for putting up with my

678
00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:54.540
discussions about migrates.

679
00:28:54.540 --> 00:28:57.220
Andrew Dunkley: Oh, no, I'm glad you brought it up because I

680
00:28:57.220 --> 00:28:58.140
actually learned something.

681
00:28:58.300 --> 00:29:00.220
Professor Fred Watson: I'm delighted to tell you it's now cleared

682
00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:00.700
completely.

683
00:29:00.940 --> 00:29:02.780
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it does that. That's. That's exactly

684
00:29:02.780 --> 00:29:04.340
how I remember them. They just sort of go

685
00:29:04.340 --> 00:29:04.920
away as.

686
00:29:05.150 --> 00:29:06.110
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it's weird.

687
00:29:06.830 --> 00:29:08.590
Andrew Dunkley: All right, see you soon, Fred Watson. Thank

688
00:29:08.590 --> 00:29:10.670
you, Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer

689
00:29:10.670 --> 00:29:13.150
at large. Don't forget to visit us, uh,

690
00:29:13.150 --> 00:29:14.590
online at our website,

691
00:29:14.590 --> 00:29:17.230
spacenutspodcast.com or spacenuts

692
00:29:17.230 --> 00:29:19.510
IO. Have a look around while you're there.

693
00:29:19.510 --> 00:29:21.710
Maybe leave some reviews wherever you listen

694
00:29:21.710 --> 00:29:24.310
to us. Reviews are very helpful to get our

695
00:29:24.310 --> 00:29:27.150
numbers up. Um, I don't know what the numbers

696
00:29:27.230 --> 00:29:29.630
are for or what they do, but it's pretty,

697
00:29:29.630 --> 00:29:31.590
pretty important, apparently, according to

698
00:29:31.590 --> 00:29:33.590
Huw. And, uh, thanks to Huw in the studio,

699
00:29:33.590 --> 00:29:35.190
who couldn't be with us today because he did

700
00:29:35.190 --> 00:29:38.130
a sample return and they

701
00:29:38.130 --> 00:29:40.370
put him in hospital. Uh, and from me, Andrew

702
00:29:40.370 --> 00:29:43.290
Dunkley. Thanks for your company. We'll

703
00:29:43.290 --> 00:29:45.210
see you on the next episode of Space Nuts.

704
00:29:45.210 --> 00:29:45.490
Bye.

705
00:29:45.490 --> 00:29:45.850
Professor Fred Watson: Bye.

706
00:29:47.130 --> 00:29:49.330
Andrew Dunkley: You've been listening to the Space Nuts

707
00:29:49.330 --> 00:29:52.290
podcast, available at

708
00:29:52.290 --> 00:29:54.330
Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

709
00:29:54.490 --> 00:29:57.250
iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast

710
00:29:57.250 --> 00:29:58.970
player. You can also stream on

711
00:29:58.970 --> 00:30:00.650
demand@bytes.com.

712
00:30:00.970 --> 00:30:03.050
Professor Fred Watson: this has been another quality podcast

713
00:30:03.050 --> 00:30:05.130
production from bytes.um com.