The Starless Galaxy That Shouldn’t Exist - But Does

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Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is

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Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunkley, your

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host, and it is good to have your company as

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always. Uh, coming up on this

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episode, uh, we're going to revisit the

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Spanish eclipse. Because the man of the

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moment, the man who went there and pointed it

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out to everyone and said, that's what an

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eclipse looks like, he couldn't join us, but

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Fred Watson Watson will talk about it. Uh,

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we'll also be, uh, discussing the Nancy,

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um, Roman, uh,

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observatory launch, which I watched online

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the other. The other night, which was

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spectacular. Uh, and there's a

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galaxy that they're looking at with, um,

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a bit of a frown and a scratch of the neck

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because, uh, it does not appear to have

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many stars. Uh, it's not emitting starlight.

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How could that be? And we'll finish

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up with the Mystery Clouds of Venus. That's

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all coming up on this episode of space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3. 2. 1. 2, 3, 4,

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5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

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Andrew Dunkley: Space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And he's back. After travelling halfway

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around the world and, uh, returning and then

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getting his leg amputated. Um, well, not

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quite, but, uh, he got it rebuilt. $6

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million. It was, I think the price of that

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it. Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer

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at large.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Fred Watson. Hi, Andrew. Thank you for

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that great intro. Yes, $6 million.

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Um, and, um, my health fund, um, provided

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$42.5, so.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, that's, uh, usually how it goes in

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Australia. That's the going rate. No matter

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what it costs you to go and see a doctor, you

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get 40 bucks back. Yeah, it's a

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great system. Um, yeah. Anyway, we

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won't go there. That's politics.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

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But as you alluded, uh, I have indeed

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received a new knee. So I had a.

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My second TKR total knee

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replacement. Wow. Um, which is, uh, it was a

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week ago. Yesterday was the surgery. So I'm

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still on painkillers, so. Will not make any

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sense whatsoever. Um, I might go to sleep

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halfway through the show. That's been one of

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the symptoms.

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Andrew Dunkley: Well, between you falling asleep and me

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sneezing, it should be an interesting show.

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Hay fever is running right.

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And I cannot control it. Um,

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I know there's medications out there, but I'm

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gonna let some. I'm not allowed to take

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anymore because of my eyes. So, uh, it's made

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it more complicated. So, um, I'm, I'm. I'm

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well armed. Look, I've got.

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: The mandatory box of tissues within arm's

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length. So hopefully we'll get through it.

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Fred Watson. And, um, I'm glad the knee

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operation went well. You're the second person

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in a week that I've met who's had a total

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knee replacement. A friend of mine,

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um, literally stepped into a hole that he

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didn't know was there because it was full of

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grass and buckled his knee and the damage

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was too severe and they had to do a knee

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replacement. It's a bit of a shocker, that

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one. Yes, but he's still on

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crutches.

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Professor Fred Watson: Okay, well, I've parked my crutches, although

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I did resort to one in the middle of the

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night. Uh, when I had to get up. I, uh,

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thought, no, I'm just going to use the

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crotch. But, yeah, um, it doesn't take

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long. But, um, you know, your

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colleague, uh, uh, there, he

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had much more than just a knee replacement

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with that accident damage. Mine was just a

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quick one out, one in. Uh, and

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so I think it's a lot more predictable and

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probably a lot easier for me to recover. Um,

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I'm sorry, he's still on crutches and hoopi.

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I wish him well. Yes, we used to speak on the

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radio a long time ago.

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Andrew Dunkley: That's right. One of my old radio mates.

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Uh, Fred Watson, let's talk about the Spanish

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eclipse. I saw a lot of pictures and footage

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online. People getting very artistic with

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their photography at times. These

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things have become very popular. And,

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uh, from what I could tell, it was. It was a

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little bit different because it wasn't sort

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of up there, it was over there. Is that how

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it went? It was more on the horizon than

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you'd normally expect.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right. And that was always the

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issue for us, uh, because at the time of

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totality it was only 9 degrees above

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the western horizon, and that's very low

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down. Um, but we

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figured that we would take that risk.

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The storey actually goes back a long way.

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So we were leading a tour group. We had,

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uh, uh, 16 of us through France and

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Spain and Switzerland. We went to the Large

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Hadron Collider. We went to two observatories

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in France, uh, Haute Provence and Pic du

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Midi, both of which were sensational. We

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really enjoyed those visits and wound up at

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Santander in northern Spain. Uh,

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we got there, I think, three days before

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the eclipse. Um, and the first thing

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Marnie and I did was to basically

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stake out where we were going to watch it

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from. Um, because, um, in those

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resorts in northern Spain on the coast, uh,

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they're all built facing eastwards because

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they get the morning sun and often there is

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high ground behind them. And so we,

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um, found a spot about two kilometres from

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our hotel. We had a couple of vehicles so we

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could, and manipulate everything. Um,

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Marnie, um, bought a gazebo,

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uh, which we erected on our chosen

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spot. There was nobody there at that time,

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but we knew it was going to fill up. Uh, so

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we had this gazebo. Um, we, the first night

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I said, this is going to blow away if we just

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leave it here. So, so we parked one

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of our vehicles under the gazebo and tied the

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gazebo down onto the roof of the car.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, great idea.

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Professor Fred Watson: It's still there the next day. Yeah, yeah,

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until the next time, we said.

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Andrew Dunkley: But the gazebo was.

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Professor Fred Watson: So, yeah, it turned into, uh, quite a big

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event. There were, there were very big crowds

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there. We'd obviously chosen exactly the

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right spot. Lots, um, of people, an ice

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cream van was there. That turned up on day

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two.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, wow.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, day T minus one, Um, a whole lot

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of cops came on horseback and in vehicles and

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in helicopters. They were obviously all taken

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completely by surprise by this event.

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What's going on up there? Um, but

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yes, on the afternoon. So it was an evening

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eclipse, the afternoon, uh, the sky was

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completely clear. But, uh, towards the end of

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the afternoon, this bank of cloud appeared in

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the west. Uh, and you could see that it

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was sort of spreading upwards as it

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approached. So the sun was effectively

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setting into that. The partial phase started

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at half past seven. I spotted that

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with the binoculars. It was a magical moment

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when I first saw the mountains of the moon

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just encroaching into the sun's disc. This

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was with, uh, binoculars, with filters. Uh,

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and then we. You know, eclipses are an

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amazing spectacle. You've got this buildup

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over an hour or so as the moon's disc

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gradually covers the sun, and then that time

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of perfection when the two are exactly

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aligned. So what happened? We all got

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steadily more and more depressed as the sun

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was sinking into this bank of cloud. But

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about two minutes before totality, a hole

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opened up, uh, right where the sun was.

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And when the total eclipse happened, we got a

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perfect view of the corona. It was just

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magical. It was clear. Um,

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so we could see the outer atmosphere of the

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sun, the corona. It looked slightly yellowish

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and that's because the sun was so low.

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Normally pure white and

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pink clouds of hydrogen, which were bigger

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than I've seen before. They were spectacular.

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Lots of cheers from the crowd. There were

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about 2,000 people there by then. Uh, we, in

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our little uh, tent. There were 20 of us too,

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because two members of my UK family, or four

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members came out to watch. So, uh, a good

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time was had by all. Uh, and we were

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delighted to get a great eclipse. And I think

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everybody was very happy. Nani and I spent

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the next day.

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Andrew Dunkley: I was going to say, isn't that twice in a row

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that you've been to an eclipse that was

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cloudy and it cleared up at the last second?

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Professor Fred Watson: Cleared up, that's right. Um, not nearly

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twice in a row. It was the one before last, I

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think was.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh.

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Professor Fred Watson: Nor was it the last one. Yes, it was the last

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one. It was in Texas. That's right. And it

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was cloudy. Uh, and then the holes

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appeared and we saw the eclipse. So,

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yeah, somebody's looking after us. I don't

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know who it is. Indeed. It was great.

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Um, yeah. And that sort of wrapped up the

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tour.

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Then we had a couple of days. Uh, we had.

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Bore you with the details. We had a nightmare

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journey home which involved

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rebooking flights, uh, two hours before they

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left through to Sydney from Barcelona. But

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anyway, that's another storey. Travellers

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tales. You've got plenty of them as well.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um,

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I guess the difference with that eclipse in

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Spain was it was happening at sunset.

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And normally when you watch one of these

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eclipses, it turns, uh, day into night

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and then it comes back to day again, but at

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sunset, I guess you sort of missed out on

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that kind of effect to a certain degree.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Excuse me. To a certain extent.

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But it got dark very quickly, as it does.

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It's only when something like 80 or

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90% of the sun's disc is covered. That's the

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only time when you notice that things are

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dimming. Um, I think birds did go to

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sleep. We didn't really take much notice. It

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was 1 minute and 3 seconds was the time m of

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totality that we had. Uh, um.

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But yes, it did get light again. Uh. Uh,

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light enough for us to take lots of

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photographs of each other and all the rest of

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it. Uh, we demolished the gazebo, gave it

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to a guy, a French guy, who thought it was

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the bee's knees. He. He had a camper van next

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door. We also gave him the inflatable

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fridge that we bought.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, my goodness.

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Professor Fred Watson: Did you know there was such a thing?

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Andrew Dunkley: I'd never heard of it.

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Professor Fred Watson: My wife does. Uh, we had an inflatable fridge

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and we gave him some chairs as well, because

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we couldn't take all this stuff back to

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Australia.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, of course.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Fantastic.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Well, you know, I'm all set for, uh,

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Dubbo 2028.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, 2028, that's right.

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Andrew Dunkley: So less than two years now, not far.

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We've just been sitting on this one for 20

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years when we first found out about it. But,

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uh, yeah, looking forward to that. In fact,

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uh, I think that year, um, there's going to

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be three or four eclipses in our part of the

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world or over those next couple years.

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Professor Fred Watson: Over the next few years, yeah, I think till

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20, 30 something. I can't

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remember what it is. Yeah, I don't know.

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There are another three that'.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, okay, uh, well, that sounds like fun.

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Let's talk about something else

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extraordinary. Uh, the other night I was

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sitting, uh, in my lounge, just about to pop

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off to sleep and my brain said, you know,

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they should be launching the Nancy Roman

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telescope sometime soon, Andrew.

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Professor Fred Watson: So I thought, oh, yeah, yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: So I grabbed my iPad and I logged on and sure

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enough, the countdown was five minutes from

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launch.

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Professor Fred Watson: And I thought, brilliant.

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Andrew Dunkley: Isn't the brain an amazing thing? Yeah,

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that it, that it reminded me of that five

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minutes before the launch and I, uh,

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I was oblivious to it at that moment,

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so I watched the whole thing. It was

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fantastic.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I watched the replay the next day. I

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wasn't, um, switched on as you were. I was

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probably asleep actually with

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the painkillers. But yes, I did,

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um, realise that, uh, it was taking place

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then, uh, and yeah, flawless launch. It

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looked fantastic.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, it was, wasn't it?

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, all 27 of those Merlin motors

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firing away there

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Andrew Dunkley: and it now makes the 1 million,

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is it kilometres or

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Professor Fred Watson: miles journey to, uh, Yes, a million

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miles. A million and a half kilometres. Uh,

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yeah, and I think it's well on the way, this

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is to the L2 point, that point

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on the far side of the Earth, uh, from the

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sun where there's this stable gravitational

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thing which we call a Lagrange point. Um,

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several spacecraft there already, including

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the James Webb and Gaia, Um, that

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European, fantastic European project, that's

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there a few other ones.

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Andrew Dunkley: I'll be running out of room up there. They'll

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have to put in traffic lights.

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Professor Fred Watson: So it's interesting, um, you kind of think of

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that. Oh, if this is a stable point, they

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must always trying to get to the same point.

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But actually what they are, they're all in

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orbit around a stable point. So you're in

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orbit around nothing. Um, but the

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gravitational forces work to sort of keep you

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in orbit there. Um, yep.

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So it's, um. Yes. So

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I don't know, I haven't really looked at the

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commissioning schedule for the Nancy Grace

325
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Roman. Uh, but, um, it's probably already

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started because, uh, they don't waste much

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time with these things to get as much data as

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they can just in case something catastrophic

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goes wrong early on. Um, what

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we've got here is a Hubble class telescope.

331
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Um, same sort of size as The Hubble,

332
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uh, 2.4 metres, with,

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uh, the big difference that

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even though it's got the fine detail, the

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resolving power of the Hubble, it's got a

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hundred times the field of view of the

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Hubble, which means it sees 100

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times more sky. And so, you know, the

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Hubble's always been giving us these,

340
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what you might call pinhole images, just, um,

341
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almost looking through a straw at the sky.

342
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Uh, the Nancy Grace Roman is a wide angle

343
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telescope. It's also infrared. Uh, so, um,

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it is actually seeing redder than red

345
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light. And we've got high hopes for what it

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might achieve with huge galaxy

347
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surveys which hopefully will show light on,

348
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which shed light on dark matter and dark

349
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energy. And, um, also

350
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it's got a very sophisticated

351
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coronagraph on board. And a coronagraph

352
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is a thing that blots out the light of a star

353
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so you can look for other objects nearby.

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And so we should start seeing images of

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exoplanets coming from Nancy Grace Roman as

356
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well. So it is lots to talk about down the

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track, Andrew.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, very exciting. When do they expect it

359
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to actually be ready to roll? It's a bit

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of a process, isn't it?

361
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Professor Fred Watson: It is, that's right. I'm not sure what the

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schedule is, as I was saying, but, um, we'll

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keep, um, we'll keep space notes listeners

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posted at the moment. The news is all good

365
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and.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it is, it is. In fact,

367
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um, I'm just looking,

368
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yeah, first observations, maybe early

369
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next year sometime.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, they haven't got it in mind. It was

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2027.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, and I mean I, I remember because

374
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we lived it in real time. The commissioning

375
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for the Hubble telescope back in

376
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1990. I was an astronomer at the UK Schmidt

377
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telescope then and we were getting direct

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reports from NASA actually about the

379
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commissioning before the Interweb. Um,

380
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and we very quickly realised that

381
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something was wrong because we got, um,

382
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reports of the image diameter as they went

383
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and the image diameter never got small. So it

384
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was quite obvious very early on that there

385
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was a problem with the Hubble and of course

386
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took them three years to build a, a

387
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little device to correct for that. And, uh,

388
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then it was flown on a space shuttle mission

389
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and the rest is History. Yeah.

390
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Andrew Dunkley: A PUFU valve, I think it was, they needed to

391
00:15:22.110 --> 00:15:23.390
put on it. Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: M. Anyway, it did have a cost bar. Was it

393
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something like that?

394
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Andrew Dunkley: Something like that, yeah. It was lucky that

395
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it was close enough to get to, um.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right.

397
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Andrew Dunkley: Can't do that with the L2.

398
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Professor Fred Watson: You can't. That's exactly right. Um,

399
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yes, things have moved on a bit since then.

400
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Andrew Dunkley: They have, uh, exciting times. And we will

401
00:15:44.550 --> 00:15:46.590
watch with interest. And of course, uh, when

402
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they achieve first light and we start to see

403
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some other images, we will share them with

404
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you here on Space Nuts. And you are

405
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listening to the latest edition with Andrew

406
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Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: I think we need to do a little more all

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weather testing.

409
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Professor Fred Watson: Amen, Space Nuts.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay, Fred Watson, let's talk about this

411
00:16:09.050 --> 00:16:12.010
strange galaxy. Um, some

412
00:16:12.010 --> 00:16:14.370
are saying it's a failed galaxy. Uh, it's

413
00:16:14.370 --> 00:16:16.810
been described as a starless galaxy. And it's

414
00:16:16.810 --> 00:16:19.730
got a name. It's called Cloud 9. What is this

415
00:16:19.730 --> 00:16:20.090
thing?

416
00:16:21.850 --> 00:16:24.810
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it's, um. Yes, it's

417
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not a mystery galaxy in the sense that people

418
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have speculated that there

419
00:16:31.250 --> 00:16:34.210
may be galaxies without stars. And,

420
00:16:34.450 --> 00:16:37.450
you know, we tend to think of galaxies as

421
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being made of stars. Yes, ours is.

422
00:16:40.370 --> 00:16:43.290
Milky Way is a gigantic spiral of stars

423
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and gas and dust. Very beautiful. If

424
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we could see it from the outside, which sadly

425
00:16:47.930 --> 00:16:50.530
we, we never can. Uh, but,

426
00:16:50.870 --> 00:16:53.250
um, it has always been

427
00:16:53.250 --> 00:16:55.170
speculated that there may be,

428
00:16:56.250 --> 00:16:58.650
uh, galaxies which

429
00:16:58.650 --> 00:17:01.530
contain clouds of hydrogen, the raw material

430
00:17:01.530 --> 00:17:03.370
of stars, which

431
00:17:04.170 --> 00:17:07.130
basically is too hot for

432
00:17:07.610 --> 00:17:10.530
the clouds to collapse into individual stars.

433
00:17:10.530 --> 00:17:12.249
I think I've got the logic the right way

434
00:17:12.249 --> 00:17:15.050
there. Yeah. So you've got the raw

435
00:17:15.050 --> 00:17:17.770
material of stars, but,

436
00:17:18.370 --> 00:17:20.650
um, it doesn't form a stellar

437
00:17:20.890 --> 00:17:23.210
population. Um, and

438
00:17:24.330 --> 00:17:26.890
maybe, um, it's because there's,

439
00:17:27.210 --> 00:17:29.290
you know, as I said, the gas is too hot.

440
00:17:29.930 --> 00:17:32.410
So this particular object, Cloud 9,

441
00:17:32.970 --> 00:17:35.770
it's not very far away. Uh, it

442
00:17:35.850 --> 00:17:38.570
is about 14 million light years away,

443
00:17:39.290 --> 00:17:41.210
which puts it really on our galactic

444
00:17:41.210 --> 00:17:44.170
doorstep. Uh, it's not far from a, uh,

445
00:17:44.210 --> 00:17:46.890
spiral galaxy called Messier 94,

446
00:17:47.290 --> 00:17:50.210
which is a lovely spiral, uh,

447
00:17:50.210 --> 00:17:51.570
if I remember rightly, in the Northern

448
00:17:51.570 --> 00:17:54.250
Hemisphere sky. Uh, well, it must be because

449
00:17:54.250 --> 00:17:56.500
it's being observed by a telescope that, um,

450
00:17:56.630 --> 00:17:58.950
I never really had anything to do with. But I

451
00:17:59.110 --> 00:18:01.430
knew its sight well because it was built on a

452
00:18:01.430 --> 00:18:03.790
place where I used to observe a lot. Uh, this

453
00:18:03.790 --> 00:18:06.390
is the Gran Telescopio Canarias,

454
00:18:06.870 --> 00:18:09.510
uh, which is the Big Canarian

455
00:18:09.510 --> 00:18:11.110
Telescope. It's actually the biggest optical

456
00:18:11.110 --> 00:18:12.830
telescope in the world. It has a 10 metre

457
00:18:12.830 --> 00:18:15.350
mirror, um, and it's

458
00:18:15.430 --> 00:18:18.270
located, uh, In La Palma

459
00:18:18.270 --> 00:18:20.270
in the Canary Islands. And I used to observe

460
00:18:20.270 --> 00:18:21.790
there on a telescope called the William

461
00:18:21.790 --> 00:18:24.710
Herschel Telescope. So uh, gtc as

462
00:18:24.710 --> 00:18:27.410
it's called, Grand Telescopio Canarias has

463
00:18:27.410 --> 00:18:30.130
a camera, um, ah, called

464
00:18:30.130 --> 00:18:32.890
Hypercam, ah, which is the

465
00:18:32.890 --> 00:18:35.570
one that I think has

466
00:18:35.650 --> 00:18:38.290
really given us this research on Cloud nine

467
00:18:38.770 --> 00:18:41.090
because uh, the colleagues who

468
00:18:41.490 --> 00:18:44.450
observed uh, this object, what they did

469
00:18:44.450 --> 00:18:46.830
was they used that big telescope with its um,

470
00:18:47.090 --> 00:18:49.970
wide angle camera in order

471
00:18:50.210 --> 00:18:53.090
to get very, very deep

472
00:18:53.090 --> 00:18:55.450
images. And by deep images we mean ones that

473
00:18:55.450 --> 00:18:57.650
penetrate to the, at really faint levels.

474
00:18:58.290 --> 00:19:00.970
Uh, they got 2.36 hours of

475
00:19:00.970 --> 00:19:03.870
integration, uh, which is um,

476
00:19:04.050 --> 00:19:06.290
quite, quite a long time, uh, and

477
00:19:06.770 --> 00:19:09.410
didn't see any stars. I think they, they

478
00:19:09.650 --> 00:19:12.570
think they might have seen a small number of

479
00:19:12.570 --> 00:19:15.070
stars but not uh,

480
00:19:15.970 --> 00:19:18.440
what we expect in a galaxy. Um,

481
00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:22.330
so the uh, one of the authors of

482
00:19:22.330 --> 00:19:24.850
this paper, um,

483
00:19:24.980 --> 00:19:27.580
basically in offering an explanation as to

484
00:19:27.580 --> 00:19:29.780
how you could have a galaxy with no stars,

485
00:19:30.350 --> 00:19:32.860
uh, I'll quote. The leading theoretical

486
00:19:32.860 --> 00:19:35.260
explanation involves the ultraviolet

487
00:19:35.260 --> 00:19:37.260
background radiation that permeates the

488
00:19:37.260 --> 00:19:39.980
universe after the epoch of

489
00:19:39.980 --> 00:19:42.300
reionization. Uh, that's right at the

490
00:19:42.300 --> 00:19:44.780
beginning, this radiation field heats the gas

491
00:19:44.780 --> 00:19:46.980
in low mass dark matter halos to

492
00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:49.740
temperatures high enough that the gas cannot

493
00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:52.500
cool efficiency and collapse to form stars. I

494
00:19:52.500 --> 00:19:53.820
think that might be what I said earlier,

495
00:19:53.820 --> 00:19:56.240
which is good. Um, when they do

496
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.800
simulations um, of

497
00:19:59.120 --> 00:20:02.040
uh, you know, basically what this galaxy,

498
00:20:02.040 --> 00:20:04.440
how it might have evolved, sure enough it

499
00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:06.560
remains starless. They don't have any stars.

500
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:09.780
So this looks like uh,

501
00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:12.240
look like, looks uh, like ah, the first real

502
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.200
example of something that people have

503
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.080
thought must exist. Um, and

504
00:20:18.080 --> 00:20:20.000
again quoting from. It's Dr.

505
00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.360
Trujillo, who I think I might have worked

506
00:20:23.360 --> 00:20:25.360
with in La Palma many, many years ago.

507
00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:29.090
Uh, says Cloud 9 has a halo mass

508
00:20:29.490 --> 00:20:31.810
consistent with this regime. In this picture,

509
00:20:31.810 --> 00:20:33.970
starless galaxies are not

510
00:20:34.130 --> 00:20:37.010
exotic anomalies, but a natural and

511
00:20:37.090 --> 00:20:39.330
abundant prediction of standard

512
00:20:39.330 --> 00:20:41.770
cosmological models. The challenge has simply

513
00:20:41.770 --> 00:20:44.770
been finding them. So uh, maybe it's

514
00:20:44.770 --> 00:20:47.660
not such an unusual thing after all, uh,

515
00:20:47.660 --> 00:20:50.610
but uh, something that uh, has been

516
00:20:50.610 --> 00:20:53.530
predicted. But yes, the first, I think the

517
00:20:53.530 --> 00:20:56.410
first one that we can really be sure, uh, is

518
00:20:56.410 --> 00:20:57.380
a starless galaxy.

519
00:20:58.090 --> 00:21:01.010
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, very, very unusual. Um, I'd

520
00:21:01.010 --> 00:21:03.570
suppose the description failed galaxy would

521
00:21:03.570 --> 00:21:06.570
be probably accurate given

522
00:21:06.570 --> 00:21:07.450
the circumstances.

523
00:21:07.850 --> 00:21:10.730
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, if you think of a normal galaxy as

524
00:21:10.730 --> 00:21:13.050
being populated by stars, it is.

525
00:21:13.580 --> 00:21:16.010
Um, but you can see that there's good reason

526
00:21:16.010 --> 00:21:18.650
for it to fail if the temperature of the

527
00:21:18.650 --> 00:21:20.530
background gas and the dark matter that's in

528
00:21:20.530 --> 00:21:23.450
it are too high for stars to form.

529
00:21:24.280 --> 00:21:26.760
Um, and you might consider It a success

530
00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.520
because it's a purely gaseous

531
00:21:29.520 --> 00:21:30.280
galaxy.

532
00:21:30.520 --> 00:21:33.360
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I suppose one

533
00:21:33.360 --> 00:21:35.560
day it might merge with another galaxy and

534
00:21:35.560 --> 00:21:38.520
then, you know, all hell will break loose.

535
00:21:39.560 --> 00:21:41.320
Professor Fred Watson: No, you're right, that's a good point because

536
00:21:41.320 --> 00:21:43.720
it's not that far from M94, which is a big

537
00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:46.480
galaxy. Uh, this is a, it

538
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.320
counts as a dwarf galaxy. I didn't really

539
00:21:48.320 --> 00:21:51.110
make that clear. And of course our

540
00:21:51.590 --> 00:21:54.070
own galaxy has dwarf galaxies in orbit around

541
00:21:54.070 --> 00:21:56.830
it, most of which contain stars. Uh,

542
00:21:56.830 --> 00:21:59.790
and so, and the fate of those dwarf galaxies

543
00:21:59.790 --> 00:22:02.350
is basically to become part of the, of the

544
00:22:02.350 --> 00:22:05.270
bigger galaxy. So it may be that Cloud nine

545
00:22:05.670 --> 00:22:08.070
eventually does that and maybe the conditions

546
00:22:08.070 --> 00:22:10.790
will change so that the, the gas becomes,

547
00:22:11.250 --> 00:22:13.190
um, uh, cool enough or

548
00:22:13.670 --> 00:22:16.110
otherwise relaxed enough, uh, in order to

549
00:22:16.110 --> 00:22:17.360
start and form stars.

550
00:22:18.470 --> 00:22:20.510
Andrew Dunkley: Okay. If you want to, uh, read all about the

551
00:22:20.510 --> 00:22:23.070
Starless Galaxy Cloud 9, there's a great

552
00:22:23.070 --> 00:22:25.430
article on Space dot com.

553
00:22:26.410 --> 00:22:29.190
Um, Fred Watson, we've got a live viewer

554
00:22:29.270 --> 00:22:31.950
who has, is from Dubbo, actually. Hi,

555
00:22:31.950 --> 00:22:34.620
Lynette. Um, she says, uh,

556
00:22:34.630 --> 00:22:36.910
hello from Dubbo. How long did you stay. I

557
00:22:36.910 --> 00:22:39.370
assume she means Spain. Um,

558
00:22:40.310 --> 00:22:41.750
from her earlier conversations.

559
00:22:41.990 --> 00:22:44.990
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, we were in Spain for, uh, roughly

560
00:22:44.990 --> 00:22:47.390
a week actually. Uh, I didn't tell you, but

561
00:22:47.390 --> 00:22:50.230
I, I got, um, I got,

562
00:22:50.780 --> 00:22:53.750
um, thieved from by a pickpocket.

563
00:22:54.150 --> 00:22:54.630
Professor Fred Watson: Oh.

564
00:22:55.590 --> 00:22:56.150
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

565
00:22:56.320 --> 00:22:58.870
Andrew Dunkley: Um, but very, very common thing over there.

566
00:22:59.030 --> 00:23:01.790
Professor Fred Watson: It was in Bilberryo and. Oh, we went

567
00:23:01.790 --> 00:23:04.070
there. Lovely place. Did you get your

568
00:23:04.070 --> 00:23:05.590
binoculars nicked as well?

569
00:23:05.990 --> 00:23:08.870
Andrew Dunkley: No, no, I, I'm very, very,

570
00:23:09.730 --> 00:23:12.720
um. We'll

571
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:15.360
use the word anal about holding on to my

572
00:23:15.360 --> 00:23:16.440
stuff, quite literally.

573
00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:16.880
Professor Fred Watson: Yep.

574
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:18.760
Andrew Dunkley: I put stuff in my pockets and I'll shove my

575
00:23:18.760 --> 00:23:20.680
hands in my pockets and I will not take them

576
00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.120
out. Yeah, I must look weird.

577
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:25.800
Professor Fred Watson: Well, you look weird anyway, Andrew, but

578
00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:28.760
that's, you know, not good. Not bad news

579
00:23:28.760 --> 00:23:31.350
anyway. Uh, but, but no, you're right. Um,

580
00:23:31.760 --> 00:23:34.640
so I'm like that too. But, um, I, I

581
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.620
had a sort of man bag. Um,

582
00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:40.700
and um, I was walking back

583
00:23:40.700 --> 00:23:43.060
from the Guggenheim exhibition, which you

584
00:23:43.060 --> 00:23:45.540
probably went to see as well, in Bilberry, to

585
00:23:45.540 --> 00:23:48.220
our hotel, and I thought

586
00:23:48.220 --> 00:23:50.940
I noticed a bit of a disturbance

587
00:23:51.020 --> 00:23:53.740
behind me. I had headphones on. Um, noise

588
00:23:53.740 --> 00:23:55.340
cancelling headphones because I was walking.

589
00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:56.220
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

590
00:23:56.380 --> 00:23:58.900
Professor Fred Watson: And um, when I got into the hotel, I looked

591
00:23:58.900 --> 00:24:01.580
in my man bag and the zip was open

592
00:24:01.900 --> 00:24:04.720
and I know I, I shut it up and my

593
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:07.520
binoculars were missing. So Marnie said

594
00:24:07.840 --> 00:24:09.520
go outside and have a look. They might have

595
00:24:09.520 --> 00:24:11.840
thrown them away. So went outside.

596
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:15.560
Here's four policemen bailing up these two

597
00:24:15.560 --> 00:24:16.000
guys

598
00:24:18.320 --> 00:24:20.280
and they've Been. They've been following them

599
00:24:20.280 --> 00:24:22.360
because they'd created some sort of problems

600
00:24:22.360 --> 00:24:25.280
in a bar. Um, and I approached

601
00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:27.440
one of the policemen and said,

602
00:24:27.450 --> 00:24:30.400
um, I've, uh, lost a pair of binoculars.

603
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:31.720
And he just said, yeah, we've got your

604
00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:34.620
binoculars. Wow. So I got lucky.

605
00:24:35.260 --> 00:24:36.060
Fantastic.

606
00:24:38.140 --> 00:24:40.700
Yeah, these guys had tried to throw them away

607
00:24:40.700 --> 00:24:43.260
when they saw the police were on them and the

608
00:24:43.340 --> 00:24:46.340
cops had seen it. The cop who dealt

609
00:24:46.340 --> 00:24:49.299
with me spoke great English. He was an

610
00:24:49.299 --> 00:24:51.980
absolute gentleman. It was, uh, such a good

611
00:24:51.980 --> 00:24:53.780
experience that Marnie insisted on taking

612
00:24:53.780 --> 00:24:55.700
our, uh, photographs together and things like

613
00:24:55.700 --> 00:24:56.940
that afterwards.

614
00:24:56.940 --> 00:24:58.820
Andrew Dunkley: Well, you got very lucky, Fred Watson. Very

615
00:24:58.820 --> 00:24:59.260
lucky.

616
00:24:59.260 --> 00:25:01.620
Professor Fred Watson: Very, very lucky indeed. Yeah, absolutely

617
00:25:01.620 --> 00:25:03.840
lucky. Uh, I couldn't believe it. And

618
00:25:03.840 --> 00:25:06.520
actually, those, uh. You know, I can go on

619
00:25:06.520 --> 00:25:08.760
about binoculars ad. Uh, infinitum. M. Having

620
00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:10.280
written the first book in English on the

621
00:25:10.280 --> 00:25:13.080
history of binoculars. Uh, but they were a

622
00:25:13.080 --> 00:25:15.880
special pair as well. Quite new. They're new

623
00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:18.800
to me. They're, um. Basically, they

624
00:25:18.800 --> 00:25:21.480
were made in the 60s. Sorry, the. The 70s.

625
00:25:21.800 --> 00:25:23.950
But they're very, very good ones. And, um,

626
00:25:23.950 --> 00:25:25.400
yeah, they're worth a lot of money.

627
00:25:25.560 --> 00:25:28.440
Andrew Dunkley: So Starchild says, um, we've got a few live,

628
00:25:28.650 --> 00:25:30.870
uh, viewers at the moment. And Starchild

629
00:25:30.870 --> 00:25:32.790
says, quite a few thieves in the Milky Way.

630
00:25:34.310 --> 00:25:35.750
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right, yeah.

631
00:25:36.110 --> 00:25:38.710
Andrew Dunkley: Um, and there was another

632
00:25:38.790 --> 00:25:41.710
question. Uh, uh, good. Uh, says, good to see

633
00:25:41.710 --> 00:25:43.750
you two together again. Moose says, how much

634
00:25:43.750 --> 00:25:45.670
did I miss? Uh, about that much.

635
00:25:47.110 --> 00:25:49.670
I think we're a bit past halfway, Moose. And,

636
00:25:49.750 --> 00:25:52.630
um, another question. Um, how

637
00:25:52.870 --> 00:25:55.590
many light years across is a dwarf galaxy? I

638
00:25:55.590 --> 00:25:56.870
guess they're all different sizes.

639
00:25:57.660 --> 00:25:59.390
Professor Fred Watson: They are, but it's a good question. I mean,

640
00:25:59.390 --> 00:26:02.220
um, so think of our galaxy, which is

641
00:26:02.300 --> 00:26:04.220
kind of 100,000 light years across.

642
00:26:05.010 --> 00:26:07.900
Um, and that's typical of

643
00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:10.140
a. Of a major spiral galaxy.

644
00:26:10.540 --> 00:26:13.420
Dwarf galaxy would probably be

645
00:26:13.420 --> 00:26:16.420
less than a tenth of that. Um, 10,000

646
00:26:16.420 --> 00:26:18.980
light years. That sort of size. You know,

647
00:26:18.980 --> 00:26:21.900
just on. On average. Uh, that kind of.

648
00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:22.820
That kind of size.

649
00:26:23.930 --> 00:26:25.930
Andrew Dunkley: Okay. Thanks for the question. It doesn't

650
00:26:25.930 --> 00:26:27.450
happen like this very often, but today

651
00:26:28.650 --> 00:26:30.730
we've got an active audience. That's good.

652
00:26:32.330 --> 00:26:34.290
Yeah. All right. Uh, you're listening to

653
00:26:34.290 --> 00:26:36.130
Space Nuts, by the way, uh, with Andrew

654
00:26:36.130 --> 00:26:38.250
Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson Watson.

655
00:26:40.570 --> 00:26:42.490
Professor Fred Watson: Okay, we checked all four systems.

656
00:26:43.530 --> 00:26:46.370
Andrew Dunkley: Space Nuts, our final topic. Fred Watson

657
00:26:46.370 --> 00:26:49.370
takes us to Venus. Sunny Venus.

658
00:26:49.370 --> 00:26:51.690
Ah, yes. What a place. Go outside, take a

659
00:26:51.690 --> 00:26:54.660
deep breath, drop dead. Um, but

660
00:26:54.740 --> 00:26:56.860
there's some news about Venus which involves

661
00:26:56.860 --> 00:26:59.260
its clouds again. Now, the last time this was

662
00:26:59.260 --> 00:27:00.980
big news was when they thought they might

663
00:27:00.980 --> 00:27:03.700
have found, um, signs of life in the

664
00:27:03.700 --> 00:27:05.900
clouds. That's still under a lot of

665
00:27:05.900 --> 00:27:08.700
speculation and debate. But, uh, what's the

666
00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:11.180
latest with these clouds? These aren't the

667
00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:13.180
ones we were talking about last time. These

668
00:27:13.180 --> 00:27:14.580
are a little bit different again.

669
00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:17.020
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, they are, yeah. So I think that was

670
00:27:17.020 --> 00:27:19.060
sulphur. Was it sulphur dioxide? I can't

671
00:27:19.060 --> 00:27:21.780
remember. Um, the detection, uh, which

672
00:27:22.470 --> 00:27:24.870
people got excited because it might mean

673
00:27:24.870 --> 00:27:26.710
living organisms in the upper atmosphere of

674
00:27:26.710 --> 00:27:28.710
Venus. But I think that's gone away now.

675
00:27:29.230 --> 00:27:31.270
Um, it's great to talk about Venus,

676
00:27:31.270 --> 00:27:33.510
especially just now, because you would know,

677
00:27:33.750 --> 00:27:35.750
Andrew, it's absolutely lighting up the

678
00:27:35.750 --> 00:27:38.550
evening sky. Uh, over there in the west. It

679
00:27:38.550 --> 00:27:40.710
is very bright, very high in the sky,

680
00:27:41.270 --> 00:27:43.990
beautiful object. And when we look at it,

681
00:27:44.230 --> 00:27:47.200
it's kind of got a yellowish colour, uh,

682
00:27:47.350 --> 00:27:49.970
which is because we're seeing reflections

683
00:27:49.970 --> 00:27:52.050
from the top of its cloud layer.

684
00:27:52.610 --> 00:27:55.330
Um, but, uh, it's been known

685
00:27:55.330 --> 00:27:58.130
for a long time that

686
00:27:58.130 --> 00:28:00.530
if you photograph Venus in with

687
00:28:00.530 --> 00:28:03.370
ultraviolet light, you. You

688
00:28:03.370 --> 00:28:06.130
see patterns, really

689
00:28:06.210 --> 00:28:08.930
dramatic patterns. And I've, uh, got one in

690
00:28:08.930 --> 00:28:10.250
front of me now. But I do remember

691
00:28:10.250 --> 00:28:12.330
photographs of this, that these are sort of

692
00:28:12.330 --> 00:28:15.010
global size patterns that actually

693
00:28:15.090 --> 00:28:17.490
move, uh, with the. The

694
00:28:17.490 --> 00:28:20.270
clouds of Venus. Uh, we

695
00:28:20.270 --> 00:28:23.240
know. I think most space notes, uh,

696
00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:24.950
listeners and viewers would know that we

697
00:28:24.950 --> 00:28:26.910
don't actually see the surface of Venus

698
00:28:26.910 --> 00:28:29.750
directly. We can with radar, uh, certain

699
00:28:29.750 --> 00:28:31.750
infrared observations that let you penetrate

700
00:28:31.750 --> 00:28:34.460
to the surface. But basically all we see, uh,

701
00:28:34.460 --> 00:28:36.390
and certainly in ultraviolet is the upper

702
00:28:36.390 --> 00:28:39.230
parts of the cloud belts, cloud

703
00:28:39.230 --> 00:28:42.030
layers. So the markings themselves,

704
00:28:42.420 --> 00:28:45.150
uh, are a puzzle. And,

705
00:28:45.800 --> 00:28:47.760
and this is where it sort of gets

706
00:28:47.760 --> 00:28:49.440
interesting. Although it's not one of these

707
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:51.080
storeys that's got a neat and tidy answer,

708
00:28:51.080 --> 00:28:53.760
I'm afraid. Um, there's a

709
00:28:53.760 --> 00:28:56.680
chemical that is thought to be in

710
00:28:56.680 --> 00:28:59.680
Venus's upper atmosphere, which is

711
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:01.880
called the unknown absorber.

712
00:29:02.740 --> 00:29:05.720
Uh, and because, uh, it absorbs

713
00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:08.440
light in the ultraviolet and you get dark

714
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:10.840
patches from. From this, this stuff.

715
00:29:11.760 --> 00:29:14.180
Um, I was talking to somebody about this the

716
00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:15.660
other day and they said it sounds like a

717
00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:18.380
superhero, the Unknown absorber. Uh,

718
00:29:18.380 --> 00:29:20.740
which, uh, I think probably would work well.

719
00:29:20.740 --> 00:29:23.500
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, his superhero name would

720
00:29:23.500 --> 00:29:24.980
be the Sponge.

721
00:29:25.540 --> 00:29:26.980
Professor Fred Watson: The Sponge, that's right.

722
00:29:28.260 --> 00:29:31.060
So what's happened is that,

723
00:29:31.360 --> 00:29:34.060
um, a team, an international team

724
00:29:34.060 --> 00:29:36.620
actually, of basically astrobiologists,

725
00:29:36.620 --> 00:29:38.660
people who were looking at,

726
00:29:39.460 --> 00:29:42.270
uh, the origin of life in the universe

727
00:29:42.270 --> 00:29:44.670
and what we need for life to form and all of

728
00:29:44.670 --> 00:29:46.630
those other good things, not necessarily

729
00:29:46.630 --> 00:29:48.150
trying to find life, but trying to understand

730
00:29:48.310 --> 00:29:51.050
life. Um, what they've done, uh,

731
00:29:51.050 --> 00:29:53.830
they've essentially this

732
00:29:53.830 --> 00:29:56.710
research team, I think they've done very

733
00:29:57.030 --> 00:29:59.970
cluey kind of modelling, um,

734
00:29:59.990 --> 00:30:02.870
of the droplets within the

735
00:30:02.870 --> 00:30:05.510
clouds of Venus to try and

736
00:30:06.290 --> 00:30:09.250
not identify what this unknown absorber

737
00:30:09.250 --> 00:30:11.360
is, but sort of, um,

738
00:30:12.130 --> 00:30:15.050
place limits on its properties. You

739
00:30:15.050 --> 00:30:17.170
know, it does this but it doesn't do that.

740
00:30:17.770 --> 00:30:19.850
Uh, and it does this to this extent, but it

741
00:30:19.850 --> 00:30:22.570
doesn't do that to this extent. So, uh,

742
00:30:22.570 --> 00:30:25.290
it's all about trying to model what

743
00:30:25.290 --> 00:30:27.810
cloud droplets would look like to

744
00:30:27.970 --> 00:30:30.410
actually reproduce what we see when we

745
00:30:30.410 --> 00:30:33.100
observe the planet. Um,

746
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.560
so, uh, uh, one of the

747
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.080
authors of the paper basically

748
00:30:40.080 --> 00:30:43.040
poses a question, uh, if

749
00:30:43.040 --> 00:30:45.280
we were to collect Venus's cloud

750
00:30:45.360 --> 00:30:48.080
droplets, and I'm paraphrasing here,

751
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.920
into a bucket, how would the

752
00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.910
reformed bulk liquid appear? Uh,

753
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:56.240
the scientist actually said a spectrometric

754
00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:58.680
cuvette. Uh, but a bucket's as good an

755
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:01.320
allergy for that as you need. If you could

756
00:31:01.320 --> 00:31:03.400
collect the droplets, what would it look

757
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:06.300
like? Um, and that

758
00:31:06.700 --> 00:31:09.420
is the sort of key

759
00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:11.980
to the modelling that's been done.

760
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.430
Um, they, there's a comment, um,

761
00:31:15.430 --> 00:31:17.260
I think it might come from the original

762
00:31:17.260 --> 00:31:20.020
paper, but um, phys.org has got a very

763
00:31:20.020 --> 00:31:22.980
nice article on this and I

764
00:31:22.980 --> 00:31:25.260
think it may even come from their press

765
00:31:25.500 --> 00:31:28.380
release. Uh, but basically it's

766
00:31:29.020 --> 00:31:31.740
likening the droplets in

767
00:31:32.260 --> 00:31:34.420
the clouds of Venus to cigarette smoke.

768
00:31:35.040 --> 00:31:37.700
Um, because, um, cigarette smoke is

769
00:31:37.780 --> 00:31:40.580
tiny particles, tarry. Tiny tarry

770
00:31:40.580 --> 00:31:42.980
particles, um, which

771
00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:46.140
look sort of white or bluish because of the

772
00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:47.819
scattering of light. Because these things are

773
00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:50.500
so small they scatter light very effectively.

774
00:31:50.820 --> 00:31:53.700
But if you collected it into a flask, you

775
00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:56.380
got this horrible sludge, uh, tar,

776
00:31:56.380 --> 00:31:58.980
like sludge. Of course that was what ends up

777
00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:01.880
in your lungs if you're a smoker. Um,

778
00:32:02.510 --> 00:32:05.470
yeah. So what they're suggesting is that

779
00:32:06.030 --> 00:32:08.670
there's a similar phenomenon happening in

780
00:32:08.670 --> 00:32:11.630
Venus's clouds, uh, because the particle

781
00:32:11.630 --> 00:32:13.710
size of the droplets in Venus's upper

782
00:32:13.710 --> 00:32:16.070
atmosphere are comparable to the particle

783
00:32:16.070 --> 00:32:18.750
size of cigarette smokes, smoke.

784
00:32:18.910 --> 00:32:21.790
So even though, um, you know, even though

785
00:32:21.790 --> 00:32:24.750
the clouds with the visible light

786
00:32:25.390 --> 00:32:28.390
look that sort of yellowish colour that we've

787
00:32:28.390 --> 00:32:30.430
mentioned already, the actual

788
00:32:31.250 --> 00:32:33.970
droplets themselves could be really,

789
00:32:33.970 --> 00:32:36.050
really dark and it's only because they

790
00:32:36.050 --> 00:32:37.810
scatter the light in a certain way that they

791
00:32:37.810 --> 00:32:40.660
look that they look yellowish. Um,

792
00:32:41.090 --> 00:32:43.650
so this, um, basically this uh, research

793
00:32:43.890 --> 00:32:46.449
is asking that question. What happened? What

794
00:32:46.449 --> 00:32:48.730
would happen if you could collect a cloud of

795
00:32:48.730 --> 00:32:50.770
material from the atmosphere of Venus and put

796
00:32:50.770 --> 00:32:53.610
it into a, um. Basically, you

797
00:32:53.610 --> 00:32:55.570
know, a flask or

798
00:32:57.010 --> 00:33:00.010
um, a beaker or something like that. Um,

799
00:33:00.180 --> 00:33:03.140
and that's where this analysis has

800
00:33:03.140 --> 00:33:06.020
gone and they've used something, it's words

801
00:33:06.020 --> 00:33:08.060
that used to strike terror into me when I was

802
00:33:08.060 --> 00:33:10.500
a student in astronomy. Andrew And I don't

803
00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:12.100
know whether I've uttered them ever since.

804
00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:15.660
Radiative transfer. Uh, radiative

805
00:33:15.660 --> 00:33:18.100
transfer is the way radiation moves around

806
00:33:18.370 --> 00:33:21.290
uh, among atoms. Uh

807
00:33:21.290 --> 00:33:23.620
and it's very, very intense

808
00:33:23.620 --> 00:33:26.340
mathematics. So these scientists

809
00:33:26.340 --> 00:33:28.260
obviously like that kind of thing. I'm afraid

810
00:33:28.260 --> 00:33:30.890
I didn't. Uh, and they've built a radiat

811
00:33:31.120 --> 00:33:33.960
transfer model that uh, actually lets

812
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:36.680
you um, account for not just

813
00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:38.880
single scattering but multiple scattering

814
00:33:39.120 --> 00:33:41.880
because you've got to um, take into account

815
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:43.600
that light might scatter from one of those

816
00:33:43.600 --> 00:33:45.960
droplets and then hit another one and scatter

817
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:48.600
from that. So you've got multiple scattering

818
00:33:48.600 --> 00:33:51.200
phenomena. Um and so

819
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.480
they uh, have basically done that

820
00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:57.400
and produced what is called the

821
00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:00.320
absorption coefficient of the bulk cloud

822
00:34:00.320 --> 00:34:03.260
liquid. That's the, how it would absorb um,

823
00:34:03.260 --> 00:34:05.680
if you just had a flask of this stuff.

824
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.400
Now what they're saying is that they don't

825
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:11.280
really know what this, these droplets are

826
00:34:11.600 --> 00:34:13.840
but they're not suggesting it's life.

827
00:34:14.560 --> 00:34:17.040
Um, they've put limits on the

828
00:34:17.040 --> 00:34:18.800
absorption coefficient

829
00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:22.360
um, and uh,

830
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:25.360
essentially again paraphrasing the

831
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:28.280
uh, Press release from phys.org uh the

832
00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:30.800
result implies that the unknown absorber

833
00:34:31.040 --> 00:34:33.420
must either absorb light very

834
00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:36.100
efficiently, occur at a very

835
00:34:36.100 --> 00:34:39.000
high concentration or both. Um,

836
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:41.930
my guess is it's going to be both. Um, so uh,

837
00:34:43.340 --> 00:34:45.500
it's some sort of, probably some sort of

838
00:34:45.740 --> 00:34:48.340
organic compound and by that I mean one that

839
00:34:48.340 --> 00:34:50.780
contains carbon rather than one that contains

840
00:34:50.780 --> 00:34:53.500
living organisms. Um and

841
00:34:53.500 --> 00:34:56.340
they've basically you know, they've suggested

842
00:34:56.340 --> 00:34:58.700
some chemicals that might actually

843
00:34:59.100 --> 00:35:01.620
be, be uh, responsible for this.

844
00:35:01.970 --> 00:35:04.260
Uh, excluding they say chlorophyll.

845
00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:06.540
Chlorophyll of course very important in life

846
00:35:06.540 --> 00:35:09.180
processes. Uh but they're excluding, they're

847
00:35:09.180 --> 00:35:11.540
saying they're not proposing chlorophyll as

848
00:35:11.630 --> 00:35:14.610
ah an example. So uh,

849
00:35:14.610 --> 00:35:16.420
as I said it's a storey that doesn't have a

850
00:35:16.420 --> 00:35:19.020
conclusion. But it's

851
00:35:19.020 --> 00:35:21.580
interesting to think of the clouds of

852
00:35:21.580 --> 00:35:23.700
Venus that if you could collect them in a

853
00:35:23.700 --> 00:35:26.580
bucket or a container they could be very very

854
00:35:26.580 --> 00:35:29.500
dark mixtures like tar, a sort of

855
00:35:29.500 --> 00:35:32.030
sludge, um,

856
00:35:32.560 --> 00:35:33.920
would be interesting.

857
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:38.880
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, um, it's a

858
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:41.600
classic example of a failed Earth like world.

859
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.280
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Yes indeed. We don't have

860
00:35:45.520 --> 00:35:48.240
things like this in our planet thankfully.

861
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:52.280
Yeah, I think there's more um, sorry Andrew,

862
00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:53.720
just to finish the storey, I think there's

863
00:35:53.720 --> 00:35:56.120
more research being

864
00:35:56.120 --> 00:35:58.160
designed possibly looking

865
00:35:58.930 --> 00:36:01.030
uh, uh, with a

866
00:36:01.670 --> 00:36:04.390
future mission to Venus, uh, perhaps

867
00:36:04.470 --> 00:36:06.150
looking for fluorescence

868
00:36:07.530 --> 00:36:09.550
uh, in the clouds because that would give

869
00:36:09.550 --> 00:36:11.750
them another angle on what this stuff is.

870
00:36:12.950 --> 00:36:15.190
Andrew Dunkley: Okay, we watch with interest. Uh,

871
00:36:16.550 --> 00:36:18.790
Venus Keeps throwing up curveballs.

872
00:36:20.150 --> 00:36:22.510
The potential for life in the clouds because

873
00:36:22.510 --> 00:36:24.950
of the discovery of phosphine. And now this.

874
00:36:25.330 --> 00:36:26.710
Um, a bucket of tar.

875
00:36:26.870 --> 00:36:29.710
Yay. What a place. Next

876
00:36:29.710 --> 00:36:30.590
holiday, I think.

877
00:36:31.470 --> 00:36:33.870
Professor Fred Watson: Well, yeah, plus you've got the sulfuric acid

878
00:36:33.870 --> 00:36:34.230
as well.

879
00:36:34.230 --> 00:36:36.990
Andrew Dunkley: Oh, that's true. Yes, yes. And. And the, um,

880
00:36:36.990 --> 00:36:38.990
undeniable level of heat. Uh, I think

881
00:36:38.990 --> 00:36:40.950
Australians could handle it and a few other

882
00:36:40.950 --> 00:36:42.990
places in the world, but most, no, most

883
00:36:42.990 --> 00:36:44.790
people couldn't. It's horrible. It's an

884
00:36:44.790 --> 00:36:47.470
horrible place. But very pretty in the sky at

885
00:36:47.470 --> 00:36:50.430
the moment. It is. You can read all about

886
00:36:50.430 --> 00:36:52.710
it@fizz.org as Fred Watson said, or you can

887
00:36:52.710 --> 00:36:55.270
read the entire paper, which was published in

888
00:36:55.270 --> 00:36:58.230
Astrobiology. And that brings us to

889
00:36:58.230 --> 00:36:59.950
the end. Fred Watson, thank you very much.

890
00:37:01.290 --> 00:37:03.170
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it's a pleasure, Andrew. Um, it's always

891
00:37:03.170 --> 00:37:05.810
good to chat and, um, even better to chat

892
00:37:05.810 --> 00:37:08.770
when you're half asleep. You did

893
00:37:08.770 --> 00:37:09.090
well.

894
00:37:09.330 --> 00:37:11.730
Andrew Dunkley: You did well. For those who joined us late,

895
00:37:12.390 --> 00:37:14.490
um, you'll have to listen to the episode, get

896
00:37:14.490 --> 00:37:16.650
the full explanation of Fred Watson's

897
00:37:16.650 --> 00:37:19.210
sleepiness. Um, it's got something to do

898
00:37:19.210 --> 00:37:22.090
with, um, painkillers. Anyway,

899
00:37:22.090 --> 00:37:25.010
we'll get on. Hopefully he'll

900
00:37:25.010 --> 00:37:26.210
brighten up for the next episode.

901
00:37:26.210 --> 00:37:27.090
Professor Fred Watson: I suspect not.

902
00:37:27.690 --> 00:37:29.250
Andrew Dunkley: Um, thank you, Fred Watson. We'll catch you

903
00:37:29.250 --> 00:37:29.910
soon, dude.

904
00:37:30.230 --> 00:37:31.990
Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great. Thanks, Andrew.

905
00:37:32.310 --> 00:37:34.230
Andrew Dunkley: Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at

906
00:37:34.230 --> 00:37:36.590
large. And don't forget to visit us at our

907
00:37:36.590 --> 00:37:38.590
website between episodes, which you can

908
00:37:38.590 --> 00:37:40.830
do@spacenutspodcast.com or

909
00:37:40.830 --> 00:37:43.030
spacenuts IO have a look around

910
00:37:43.510 --> 00:37:46.430
and, um, see what's there. The shop.

911
00:37:46.430 --> 00:37:49.150
You can send us messages, you can sign up for

912
00:37:49.150 --> 00:37:50.590
Astronomy AstroDailyPod. Plenty of things to

913
00:37:50.590 --> 00:37:52.390
see and do. And don't forget to leave reviews

914
00:37:52.390 --> 00:37:54.830
about our, uh, podcast wherever you listen to

915
00:37:54.830 --> 00:37:57.310
us. And thanks to Huw in the studio, who

916
00:37:57.310 --> 00:37:58.790
couldn't be with us today because he

917
00:37:58.790 --> 00:38:01.340
discovered that, um, he's more at home in a

918
00:38:01.490 --> 00:38:04.250
starless galaxy. And from me, Andrew Dunkley,

919
00:38:04.250 --> 00:38:05.970
thanks for your company. See you on the next

920
00:38:05.970 --> 00:38:07.250
episode of Space Nuts.

921
00:38:07.250 --> 00:38:07.530
Professor Fred Watson: Bye.

922
00:38:07.530 --> 00:38:10.410
Andrew Dunkley: Bye. You've been listening to

923
00:38:10.410 --> 00:38:11.890
the Space Nuts podcast,

924
00:38:13.490 --> 00:38:16.290
available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

925
00:38:16.450 --> 00:38:19.210
iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast

926
00:38:19.210 --> 00:38:20.970
player. You can also stream on

927
00:38:20.970 --> 00:38:23.890
demand@bytes.comm this has been another

928
00:38:23.890 --> 00:38:25.970
quality podcast production from

929
00:38:25.970 --> 00:38:27.170
bytes.com.