The Hidden Impact of Landslides on Pluto’s Surface — What Scientists Are Discovering

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Andrew Dunkley: Hello again. Thank you for joining us. This

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is Space Nuts. My name is Andrew

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Dunkley. Great to have your company yet

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again. Coming up on this episode,

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landslides on Pluto.

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Yes, apparently. So, uh, China pulls

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off a SpaceX trick. And, uh, this is

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a really interesting story. Um, we'll have to

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watch our P's and Q's on this, but the White

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House has established a UFO study group. And

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guess who's in charge? The. No, it's not the

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president. Uh, it's someone else. Almost as

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wacky. Uh, we'll do all of those stories on

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this episode of space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3, 2. 1, 2, 3, 4,

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5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

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Andrew Dunkley: Space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And speaking of wacky, uh, we are joined once

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again by Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at

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large. Uh, sporting rather significant

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bump on the head.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, yes, actually, it's two.

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One bigger than the other. It almost looks

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like a planet with its moon in orbit around

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it. As a visual aid,

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uh, walking into

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Andrew Dunkley: doors will do that to you.

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Professor Fred Watson: It's what happened. And it's all astronomy's

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fault because every night I tend to go out on

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our. We've got a terrace that faces north,

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which is where all the planets are if you're

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in the southern hemisphere. I usually go

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out and just have a look at the sky before I

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go to bed, being an astronomer, but.

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And normally, um, I check the screen doors

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open. But last night I was thinking of

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something else and I just walked right into

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the screen door. And it's quite a solid

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screen door, so I can see that. Yes,

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yeah, yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, we've all done it, Fred

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and

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Professor Fred Watson: I. I've done it, too, but not quite as

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spectacular as this, fortunately. Um,

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if I put a beanie on so I look like a

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criminal, you don't see the bullet holes. Uh,

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and where are we going next week? Uh, I'll

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probably have to have a hat on all the time

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anyway, so.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, the worst one I ever did was at

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golf. I had to duck off to the,

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um, gentleman's room, which, uh, they

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have them all over the golf course. And this

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one's right up one end of the course, but

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they've got a water tank next to it, which is

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shrouded in trees. And I knew it was there,

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so I ducked, but I didn't duck enough. Uh,

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and I went. My forehead went straight into

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the metal bit that was holding it up like

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a big. Oh, my gosh, it nearly knocked me out.

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Professor Fred Watson: I bet it Did. Yeah, yeah, I bet you were in.

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I bet you were a mess.

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Andrew Dunkley: I had a dreadful headache. Um, there was this

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awful clang, but no one saw me because I was

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in the trees.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: But um, yeah, that was not good.

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Professor Fred Watson: No, you're lucky, uh, you didn't do yourself

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one of those brain injuries.

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Andrew Dunkley: Maybe I have, Fred.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, it's funny, funny you should mention

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that, Andrew. We'll

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see how things go.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, uh, let's get stuck into our

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stories. The very first story is about

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landslides. Now we have, we have our fair

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share of landslides on Earth. I've uh, seen

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some dreadful images, uh, online of um,

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huge, I mean massive landslides in some parts

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of the world. Yeah, I've um, I've not

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witnessed one close up and personal,

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thankfully. But I've seen the aftermath of a

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few in Australia where um, landslides

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are not uncommon. Uh, and I've seen a few

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overseas where pieces of mountain have just

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slipped off and um,

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it can be pretty chaotic and unfortunately

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has um, led to fatalities. I uh,

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don't think that's a problem on Pluto in

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terms of fatalities. But uh, it is something

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that happens. Uh, and we've not seen that on

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Pluto before.

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Professor Fred Watson: Correct. Uh, and just while we're talking

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about that, you're absolutely right, um, that

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landslides ah, are playing

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actually an increasing role on our own

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planet. Um, as you know, we were up in

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Greenland at the beginning of last year, not

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next year, beginning of last year. And um,

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met online, um, a researcher

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who'd studied this, um, um, basically

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a landslide in one of the Greenland

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fjords where um,

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climate change had reduced the height of a

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glacier. And that glacier was propping

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up half a mountain.

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And as it melted, the half mountain gave

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way and tumbled down the 45

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degree slope, uh,

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onto the glacier, sorry, tumbled

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onto the Glacier, down the 45 degree slope

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into the fjord and set up this

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oscillation, uh, which I think we talked

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about a couple of times on Space Nuts.

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It's called a sesh or a seash, I think, where

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it's like water swelling from side to side in

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your bath. But it did it for, what was it,

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four days or something? Every nine minutes.

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It was extraordinary. And that's how it was

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picked up by the world's seismologists.

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So a changing climate can increase

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landslides. Now we're not saying that's

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what's happening on Pluto, uh, but, uh,

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there are landslides on Pluto. And of course

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pretty well everything we know about Pluto

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now comes from that flyby of the New

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Horizons spacecraft. If I remember rightly,

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it was 14 July 2015,

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a momentous occasion uh, for astronomers and

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planetary scientists when we got the first

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close ups of the dwarf planet Pluto

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with that heart shaped plane, uh,

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Sputnik Planitia, uh, facing

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us that people made into a likeness of Pluto

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the dog. It was all great stuff, uh, that

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is mostly um, sort of slushy

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or solid nitrogen that makes up

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that very flat plane. And people think there

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are glaciers in, at the edge of that as well.

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But the basin in which that plane uh

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formed was uh, probably caused by

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an impact billions of years ago, uh,

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that caused a depression in the surface. But

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we think the surface itself is made pretty

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well of solid water ice.

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Uh, and so what you've got is

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this large region on Pluto which

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is surrounded by a very

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fractured landscape. I remember looking at

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some of the mountains around the edge of that

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and they look just like ice cubes

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at the edge of a drink. And that's probably

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what they are, but they're four kilometers

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high. You know, these are things that

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probably were pushed to one side by whatever

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caused that impact. Yeah, but it's in

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that area around the edge of Sputnik

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Planitia that these

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um, uh, landslides have been found

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on Pluto. Uh, and it's um, actually

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some scientists, um, I think they're in Italy

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if I remember rightly, uh, who have

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um, national uh, Research Council

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in Perugia in Italy, uh, they

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have looked more closely at

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the images that came back from New

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Horizons and they think they've

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identified, I think it's about half a dozen

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uh, landslides, uh, which are

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uh, quite significant in size

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but all tend to be around the edge of

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that, of that um,

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flat plane, the

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Sputnik Polynitia.

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Andrew Dunkley: So they're sliding into the

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crater, is that what we're saying?

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Professor Fred Watson: Well what we're seeing is uh,

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actually at least one of them is sliding into

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a crater. The crater is not far from the edge

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of Sputnik Planitia, but it's not the edge.

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Um, and what they've done is they've noted,

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you know, a region in the crater wall that's

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got a break in it, uh, that

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corresponds with debris on the crater floor.

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Um, and that's the, seems to be

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the smoking gun, if I can put it that way.

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Um,

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the biggest of them is huge, it's 130 square

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kilometers, um, which is very large,

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um, and certainly would be a very big

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landslide on planet Earth. And their

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heights are ah, one

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and a half to 2.2 kilometers is what

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they're Talking about. So that's quite a

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high, um, you know, a high

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uh, drop zone, if I can put it that way.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes.

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Professor Fred Watson: And what they're saying is that

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uh, the, the material that

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falls down in the landslide down the

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slope, uh, actually goes

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further into the flat area that

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it's running into. And in this case it's the

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floor of a crater, um, that

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uh, it goes further than it would do

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elsewhere in the solar system, for example on

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Earth. Uh, and what they are suggesting is

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that that means there's less friction uh,

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in this material. So it goes

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further over the landscape. And um,

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and maybe that confirms that

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what the material is, that's sliding down is

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actually water ice. Although they don't say

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that in the report I've read. That's an

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inference from me. But uh, it sounds, it

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would make sense though.

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Andrew Dunkley: Most of the surface of Pluto is water

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ice. And of course it's so cold, like minus

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230 degrees Celsius. Um,

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the ice is like rock.

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Professor Fred Watson: Solid rock. That's right. Absolutely hard as

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rock. Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: And the mountains on Pluto are massive.

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Massive for a small place.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, they ah, are huge.

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Andrew Dunkley: Like up to 6.2 kilometers in

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height, 3.9 miles.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Um, up around the 20,000ft mark. I

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mean that would be a big mountain on Earth.

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Professor Fred Watson: It would. That's right. And here's a world

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that's um, well less than a quarter of the

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Earth's diameter. It's smaller than the moon.

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Uh, it's remarkable though. And you know,

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all credit to these scientists who've been

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very patient in their work

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combing these images for things that

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look like landslides. Because that's the only

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clue you've got is the appearance, uh,

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from, from above. But the fact that you're

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seeing maybe material in the side of a

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crater that's, that's different from the, the

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walls of the crater around it because it's

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been, it's, you know, it's, it's actually

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fallen down.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Remarkable stuff.

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Andrew Dunkley: It is. And, and we've seen landslides on

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other planets.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, yep, uh, certainly. And also

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on some of the other moons. Um,

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uh, apparently. Well, some of the features on

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Phobos, which is a very strange little world

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dominated by a huge crater called Stickney,

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uh, that has landscape,

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sorry, landslides as well. Uh, the asteroid

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Vesta, which the new, uh, sorry, the dawn

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spacecraft was in orbit around before it went

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on to Ceres, that's got landslides.

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Um, and so what they're saying is, you know,

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you'd expect a world like Pluto also

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to have landslides. But um, it's taken

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what uh 11 years now since a

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flyby uh for anyone to find them.

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But they found the evidence of six

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features that look like landslides.

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Andrew Dunkley: Actually as we record Fred, it's exactly 11

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years today.

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Professor Fred Watson: So it is.

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Andrew Dunkley: I just noticed that.

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Professor Fred Watson: So it is the 14th of July. Yes, M

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2015 it was. That's right. Well there you go.

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Andrew Dunkley: People are saying 14th of July, they're

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recording on the 14th of July and this

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thing's coming out on the, the uh 7th of

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August. What's going on? We're jumping ahead

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because Fred's got another trip.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, sorry about that.

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Andrew Dunkley: Not like the trip he had into the screen door

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last night.

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Professor Fred Watson: No, I'll try and avoid screen doors in

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future.

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Andrew Dunkley: Now it's a fascinating story. Landslides,

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probably made of water. Water ice on Pluto.

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You can read all about it. Uh, well there's a

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few places um, fizz.org's got a great article

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about it and uh, you can also read the paper

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which was published in the journal Icarus.

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This is Space Nuts. Andrew Dunkley and

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Professor Fred Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hey, that's one of the better sims, believe

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me. We've had a couple of cardiac arrests

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down here too Pete. There weren't any

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turf.

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Andrew Dunkley: Space Nuts. Okay Fred, let's

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move on to our uh, next story.

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And we've seen a lot lately

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about SpaceX and its exploits and its success

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with uh, reusable

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boosters that uh, land themselves back

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on ocean going platforms and other

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places. Places um, they've had some

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deconstructive events as well. Yes,

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um, but uh, and a few other players have

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attempted this not so successfully. Um,

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now it looks like China's in on the game.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's correct. We've had um, so uh,

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Blue Origin has also managed to

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uh, do the soft landing trick at ah, least

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once I think. Um, but

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this is the first time we've got a record

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of a country uh,

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other than America uh basically

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pulling off this trick of

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grabbing your booster before it's thrown

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away, uh landing it softly and

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saving it for another time. Uh and

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the fascinating aspect of this

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Andrew is the way it's been done by the

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China Aerospace Science and Technology

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Corporation. Um, they

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have rather than do this you

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know, fine needle control uh,

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of the rockets,

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the basically the, the rockets that are

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firing to slow down the spacecraft as it

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descends to Earth, uh and basically

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pivoting it down onto, onto its

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legs, which is certainly what happens with

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The Falcon uh nine rockets. SpaceX's

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uh, Starship actually has

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what they Call them the chopsticks. These two

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arms on the launch tower that just

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grab them and hold it. And in a way, uh, what

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we're seeing from the Chinese, uh, um,

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experiment, if I can put it that way, or

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project, is similar to that, uh, because

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you're sort of grabbing it, but not with

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pincers or chopsticks. Uh,

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basically you're putting it into a net

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as it lands.

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Andrew Dunkley: There's a. I reckon they'd be pretty good at

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using the chopsticks method.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, why did I miss

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that one? That's a great one. Yeah, they

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probably would.

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Andrew Dunkley: They're pretty good at using nets too though.

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A lot of fishing over in Asia.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. And that's what this is.

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So the spacecraft lands, uh,

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and into a sort of framework, a huge

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thing that looks a bit like a bird cage,

357
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enormous, uh, but it's got a net in it.

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And so, uh, this thing gets caught in the

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net, uh, the motor switches off,

360
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uh, and it returns, uh,

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and is captured. So

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the net, they call it a net system. And we

363
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haven't really seen any detail about how this

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works because, uh,

365
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you know, it would be, um, it's fine

366
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catching something in a net, but then you've

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got to get it out the net and set it up again

368
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for another launch. With Falcon 9,

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it's, uh, standing there ready to be reloaded

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onto the launch pad.

371
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What is impressive about this, uh,

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capture of the booster though, and it's along

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March 10th B, I think.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, it is.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, this has been, as with

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SpaceX, uh, it's a maritime

377
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landing. So the rocket comes down to a

378
00:16:00.280 --> 00:16:02.680
barge basically in the ocean that's equipped

379
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with this net. Rather than just a platform

380
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which both Blue Origin and

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SpaceX use, they just have a platform for

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their returning booster rockets. Uh, but

383
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this net is a platform, but

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with a sort of tower attached to it,

385
00:16:18.130 --> 00:16:20.800
um, really quite remarkable. Uh, and, uh,

386
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uh, yes, a step forward. This is clearly

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going to, uh, enhance the rate at which,

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00:16:26.490 --> 00:16:29.070
uh, Chinese, um, spacecraft are

389
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launched. So we'll see probably much more of

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00:16:31.190 --> 00:16:31.750
it in the future.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, and look, you've got to give them a lot

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of credit. China has got just

393
00:16:37.650 --> 00:16:40.410
burst ahead in leaps and bounds when it comes

394
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to, uh, the space race and space technology.

395
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They've got their little rover on the dark

396
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side of the moon, and um, they've got their

397
00:16:48.210 --> 00:16:50.410
space station up there, which we've mentioned

398
00:16:50.410 --> 00:16:53.010
in the last few weeks is being expanded.

399
00:16:53.730 --> 00:16:56.410
And now they've managed to um, do something

400
00:16:56.410 --> 00:16:58.770
that only a few have done before and that is

401
00:16:58.770 --> 00:17:01.170
to return a booster, uh, down onto a floating

402
00:17:01.170 --> 00:17:04.150
platform, and who knows what

403
00:17:04.460 --> 00:17:07.460
they'll achieve next. They're just, they're

404
00:17:07.460 --> 00:17:09.380
quite a remarkable entity when it comes to

405
00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:12.260
the, um, the space. I call

406
00:17:12.260 --> 00:17:14.140
it the space race. I don't really like that.

407
00:17:14.380 --> 00:17:17.260
No, but it is. I mean, look, look,

408
00:17:17.420 --> 00:17:19.540
look, look what's happening with the, the

409
00:17:19.540 --> 00:17:22.460
push to get people back on the moon. China's

410
00:17:22.460 --> 00:17:25.420
well into that race and the Americans are

411
00:17:26.140 --> 00:17:28.140
fighting very hard to get people back there

412
00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:29.340
with the Artemis missions.

413
00:17:29.740 --> 00:17:30.300
Professor Fred Watson: Yep.

414
00:17:30.300 --> 00:17:33.260
Andrew Dunkley: Um, so it's no holds

415
00:17:33.260 --> 00:17:35.540
barred at the moment. Thought you'd find this

416
00:17:35.540 --> 00:17:37.980
interesting, Fred. Remember the, um, floating

417
00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:40.920
platforms that SpaceX used to um,

418
00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:44.140
land their rockets? Um, they all had really

419
00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:44.980
funny names. They do.

420
00:17:44.980 --> 00:17:45.540
Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

421
00:17:45.700 --> 00:17:47.780
Andrew Dunkley: Of course, I Still love you was one of them.

422
00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:48.980
Professor Fred Watson: I think that was the first.

423
00:17:49.460 --> 00:17:52.220
Andrew Dunkley: Just read the instructions. That was off

424
00:17:52.220 --> 00:17:54.980
the Florida, um, coast. Uh, the first one I

425
00:17:54.980 --> 00:17:57.260
mentioned was in the Pacific and a shortfall

426
00:17:57.260 --> 00:17:59.860
of gravitas, which is also an

427
00:18:00.020 --> 00:18:03.020
East Coast Atlantic operation. So what do you

428
00:18:03.020 --> 00:18:04.180
think the Chinese have called?

429
00:18:05.760 --> 00:18:08.480
Professor Fred Watson: Ah, I don't have that information

430
00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:10.800
and I'm not sure I want to guess.

431
00:18:11.360 --> 00:18:14.160
Andrew Dunkley: Ling Hang Shu, which uh, stands for

432
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:14.960
navigator.

433
00:18:15.520 --> 00:18:16.360
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it's nice.

434
00:18:16.360 --> 00:18:17.360
Andrew Dunkley: Call it navigator.

435
00:18:17.520 --> 00:18:19.440
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I like that. Nice.

436
00:18:19.520 --> 00:18:22.480
Andrew Dunkley: It's pretty good. Um, I,

437
00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:24.320
I wouldn't have thought they'd have gone too

438
00:18:24.320 --> 00:18:26.720
far outside the, the limits of

439
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:28.800
normality in terms of a name. They would.

440
00:18:29.280 --> 00:18:32.080
That's, that's a particular Elon Musk thing,

441
00:18:32.080 --> 00:18:34.880
Professor Fred Watson: I think it is. Uh, that's certainly true. And

442
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:37.830
Norma, um, uh, a lot of Chinese

443
00:18:38.310 --> 00:18:41.310
names, uh, in terms of their spacecraft and

444
00:18:41.310 --> 00:18:42.870
things like that have got names that come

445
00:18:42.870 --> 00:18:43.910
from Chinese mythology.

446
00:18:45.770 --> 00:18:48.050
Um, ah,

447
00:18:48.710 --> 00:18:51.430
there's the relay, um,

448
00:18:51.950 --> 00:18:54.910
spacecraft that communicates both with the

449
00:18:54.910 --> 00:18:57.870
Earth and uh, the lander on the far side

450
00:18:57.870 --> 00:19:00.710
of the moon. I think it translates as Magpie

451
00:19:00.710 --> 00:19:03.470
Bridge, uh, which is, uh. I can't remember

452
00:19:03.470 --> 00:19:05.690
what the name is, but I think it's translates

453
00:19:05.690 --> 00:19:08.410
as Magpie Bridge, which comes from a Chinese

454
00:19:08.410 --> 00:19:10.170
folk tale of some sort. It's lovely.

455
00:19:10.490 --> 00:19:10.610
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

456
00:19:10.610 --> 00:19:11.450
Professor Fred Watson: Ah, yeah.

457
00:19:11.570 --> 00:19:14.490
Andrew Dunkley: Um, I can't wait to see what they do next.

458
00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:18.210
No, no. And, and this actual

459
00:19:18.210 --> 00:19:20.590
success the Chinese have, um,

460
00:19:20.590 --> 00:19:22.930
demonstrated has started a lot of chatter

461
00:19:22.930 --> 00:19:25.850
between people about, um, you know, where

462
00:19:25.850 --> 00:19:27.730
things are at between the United States and

463
00:19:27.730 --> 00:19:30.570
China in space. So, uh, it is

464
00:19:30.570 --> 00:19:33.160
noticed. It's not something that, um,

465
00:19:33.520 --> 00:19:36.150
is being ignored in the United States, but,

466
00:19:36.150 --> 00:19:38.320
um, it is being noticed most definitely.

467
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:38.880
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

468
00:19:39.600 --> 00:19:41.400
Andrew Dunkley: And look, they've made history. This one will

469
00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:43.760
be remembered because, um, it's their first,

470
00:19:44.030 --> 00:19:46.800
um, success at this level. I Think they've

471
00:19:46.800 --> 00:19:49.480
had sort of um, a few rockets that have been

472
00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:51.480
partially recovered. I don't know what that

473
00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:54.360
means exactly but uh, this

474
00:19:54.360 --> 00:19:56.800
is, this is like a self landing situation.

475
00:19:57.230 --> 00:20:00.000
Uh, and it worked very, very well. Uh, you

476
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:02.110
can read all about it@the

477
00:20:02.330 --> 00:20:05.320
space.com website. Uh, you're

478
00:20:05.320 --> 00:20:08.080
listening to Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley

479
00:20:08.080 --> 00:20:09.960
and Professor Fred Watson.

480
00:20:12.520 --> 00:20:13.960
Professor Fred Watson: Roger, your labs are here.

481
00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:15.480
Andrew Dunkley: Also Space Nuts.

482
00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.120
Now Fred, uh, we come to

483
00:20:18.280 --> 00:20:20.920
a rather saucy story, this one.

484
00:20:21.080 --> 00:20:23.800
Uh, and look, I

485
00:20:23.800 --> 00:20:25.720
even um, in reading the article

486
00:20:26.280 --> 00:20:29.160
noticed that they did a little preamble

487
00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:32.720
uh, @space.com before they ran

488
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.120
the story. It says we approach this topic

489
00:20:35.120 --> 00:20:37.560
with the same rigor we apply in our

490
00:20:37.560 --> 00:20:40.200
respective scientific fields and we hope to

491
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.080
provide an unbiased analysis

492
00:20:43.080 --> 00:20:45.720
of this topic. We hope do.

493
00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:48.760
Um, I think they did a pretty good job. But

494
00:20:48.760 --> 00:20:51.760
what we're talking about is um, a White

495
00:20:51.760 --> 00:20:54.750
House group that has been formed to

496
00:20:54.750 --> 00:20:57.023
study Ah, UAPs,

497
00:20:57.217 --> 00:21:00.030
unidentified anomalous phenomena

498
00:21:00.030 --> 00:21:02.350
formerly known as UFOs,

499
00:21:02.350 --> 00:21:05.350
unidentified flying objects. And I

500
00:21:05.350 --> 00:21:07.990
asked at the beginning of the show who's in

501
00:21:07.990 --> 00:21:10.310
charge? Would you care to

502
00:21:10.550 --> 00:21:11.350
reveal that?

503
00:21:11.350 --> 00:21:14.030
Professor Fred Watson: Fred? It is, yes, it's our old friend Avi

504
00:21:14.030 --> 00:21:16.480
Loeb who is the um,

505
00:21:16.550 --> 00:21:19.430
Harvard uh, astronomer, a very

506
00:21:19.430 --> 00:21:21.750
senior astronomer, very well thought of in

507
00:21:21.750 --> 00:21:24.490
the world of astrophysics. Except when he

508
00:21:24.490 --> 00:21:26.680
talks about UFOs. Uh,

509
00:21:27.050 --> 00:21:30.010
uh, he has, he's the person who's you know,

510
00:21:30.010 --> 00:21:32.450
looked at things like uh, does

511
00:21:33.010 --> 00:21:36.010
Comet uh 3i Atlas have uh,

512
00:21:36.010 --> 00:21:38.490
Windows or anything that might tell you that

513
00:21:38.490 --> 00:21:41.050
it is not a natural object, that it is

514
00:21:41.050 --> 00:21:42.970
artificially made. That's the interstellar

515
00:21:42.970 --> 00:21:45.130
comet that's flying through the solar system

516
00:21:45.130 --> 00:21:48.050
at the moment. It is a comet, um, and um, um,

517
00:21:48.150 --> 00:21:50.790
not a piece of alien hardware but.

518
00:21:51.590 --> 00:21:53.990
Andrew Dunkley: And yet Fred, I've had people come up to me

519
00:21:53.990 --> 00:21:56.390
and say oh did you hear about that comet?

520
00:21:57.110 --> 00:21:59.830
They think it's a spaceship. And I go no it's

521
00:21:59.830 --> 00:22:00.150
not.

522
00:22:00.390 --> 00:22:03.390
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, only

523
00:22:03.390 --> 00:22:04.390
one person does.

524
00:22:05.830 --> 00:22:08.750
Andrew Dunkley: And that's okay, that's okay. But it's

525
00:22:08.750 --> 00:22:11.430
the popular press as I like to call them

526
00:22:11.590 --> 00:22:13.270
that fuel this stuff.

527
00:22:14.430 --> 00:22:17.130
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, that's right, it is. Um,

528
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:20.000
so there have been moves

529
00:22:20.560 --> 00:22:23.440
to certainly with the freedom of information

530
00:22:23.600 --> 00:22:26.600
stuff that we've seen. Uh, the idea

531
00:22:26.600 --> 00:22:28.980
of these unidentified uh,

532
00:22:29.330 --> 00:22:32.240
ah, anomalous phenomena uh, are

533
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:35.320
now very much in the mainstream because we've

534
00:22:35.320 --> 00:22:38.040
got footage taken with infrared cameras from

535
00:22:38.040 --> 00:22:40.080
aircraft and things of that sort. That's

536
00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:40.320
right.

537
00:22:40.320 --> 00:22:43.160
Andrew Dunkley: And we did do um, a story on

538
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.140
it probably last couple of

539
00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:48.660
years, maybe longer where NASA really looked

540
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:51.340
into this and admitted that look, we can't

541
00:22:51.340 --> 00:22:52.060
explain Everything.

542
00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:52.940
Professor Fred Watson: We can't.

543
00:22:53.100 --> 00:22:55.220
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, something's going on. We just don't

544
00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:55.900
know what it is.

545
00:22:55.980 --> 00:22:56.500
Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

546
00:22:56.500 --> 00:22:58.220
Andrew Dunkley: They're not saying they're from outer space

547
00:22:58.220 --> 00:22:58.620
though.

548
00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:00.980
Professor Fred Watson: That's correct. There's no evidence that

549
00:23:00.980 --> 00:23:03.580
they're of alien origin.

550
00:23:04.130 --> 00:23:06.700
Um, which suggests they're either natural

551
00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:08.900
phenomena or somebody's doing stuff that the

552
00:23:08.900 --> 00:23:10.940
US military doesn't know about.

553
00:23:11.260 --> 00:23:13.340
Andrew Dunkley: And I'd put it in that basket.

554
00:23:13.420 --> 00:23:15.910
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I think that's probably it. Um,

555
00:23:17.250 --> 00:23:19.650
so, uh, this council,

556
00:23:20.860 --> 00:23:23.850
um, it's a new body, uh,

557
00:23:24.130 --> 00:23:27.090
that is now being chaired by Avilaeb. It's

558
00:23:27.090 --> 00:23:30.090
called the UAP Science Advisory Council. And

559
00:23:30.090 --> 00:23:32.690
that I think is a good name because it

560
00:23:33.410 --> 00:23:34.850
tells uh, you that we're looking at the

561
00:23:34.850 --> 00:23:37.370
science, not the fiction. Um,

562
00:23:37.890 --> 00:23:40.610
and I, uh, think it's brought together

563
00:23:40.850 --> 00:23:43.540
quite a large group of, uh,

564
00:23:43.570 --> 00:23:46.330
experts. I looked down the list, uh, of

565
00:23:46.330 --> 00:23:49.200
people. Um, it's a, a big council. Not,

566
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.160
you know, not two or three people. There's

567
00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:53.160
about 20, I think, probably altogether.

568
00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:56.560
Um, it's. And these are people who

569
00:23:56.560 --> 00:23:58.680
come from very different backgrounds.

570
00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:00.760
Computer scientists, psychologists,

571
00:24:01.320 --> 00:24:04.040
military people, a retired Navy admiral,

572
00:24:04.330 --> 00:24:06.440
um, an economist,

573
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:10.000
lots and lots of physicists of

574
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.520
course, as well, um, biosciences,

575
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.880
a vast array of different disciplines

576
00:24:16.770 --> 00:24:19.570
which is going to essentially,

577
00:24:20.550 --> 00:24:23.170
uh, look at the

578
00:24:23.170 --> 00:24:25.370
evidence, I suppose, and where that might

579
00:24:25.370 --> 00:24:27.970
lead. Now with Avi Loeb in

580
00:24:27.970 --> 00:24:30.890
charge, you

581
00:24:30.890 --> 00:24:33.130
might naturally think, and this may be true,

582
00:24:33.130 --> 00:24:35.730
that he would lean towards always the

583
00:24:36.130 --> 00:24:39.010
more sensational, uh, end

584
00:24:39.010 --> 00:24:41.940
of the explanations. Um,

585
00:24:41.970 --> 00:24:44.290
maybe he will, maybe he'll

586
00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:47.920
perhaps, um, resist those

587
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:50.520
temptations. His point has always been

588
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.720
that, uh, unless you think outside the box,

589
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:55.760
we're never going to discover anything really

590
00:24:55.760 --> 00:24:58.720
unusual and really interesting. And yes, I

591
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.600
think most scientists applaud that. But it's

592
00:25:01.600 --> 00:25:04.200
the sensationalism that is built around

593
00:25:04.840 --> 00:25:07.440
some of his ideas that uh, some

594
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:09.240
scientists object to quite strongly. I've

595
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:11.900
heard people really say, you know,

596
00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:14.220
fairly damning things about Avi Loeb

597
00:25:14.780 --> 00:25:17.740
because he's profited by it. He's written

598
00:25:17.740 --> 00:25:20.620
books that sensationalize some of the ideas

599
00:25:20.620 --> 00:25:23.540
of UAPs. Uh, so

600
00:25:23.540 --> 00:25:25.540
we'll have to see how that goes. But I

601
00:25:25.540 --> 00:25:27.740
thought it was a very intriguing news item.

602
00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:30.540
It means, uh, the Pentagon, I think,

603
00:25:30.620 --> 00:25:32.380
uh, well, it's actually the White House

604
00:25:32.380 --> 00:25:34.860
that's uh, started this. But the Pentagon is

605
00:25:34.860 --> 00:25:37.200
certainly involved. Their taking

606
00:25:37.600 --> 00:25:40.000
things a step further in regard to

607
00:25:40.560 --> 00:25:43.200
trying to sort out what unidentified

608
00:25:43.600 --> 00:25:45.360
anomalistic phenomena, uh, are.

609
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:47.120
Andrew Dunkley: I think we'd all like to know.

610
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:48.800
Professor Fred Watson: We would all like to know exactly.

611
00:25:48.800 --> 00:25:51.440
Andrew Dunkley: Jokes aside, something's going on

612
00:25:51.760 --> 00:25:54.640
out there and they are seeing things

613
00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:56.320
that defy

614
00:25:57.840 --> 00:25:59.520
normality when it comes to

615
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.480
ability and speed. And like these things

616
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:06.350
can, can travel at speeds that

617
00:26:06.350 --> 00:26:09.310
are unthinkable and maneuver uh,

618
00:26:09.310 --> 00:26:11.710
in ways that a standard aircraft could not

619
00:26:11.710 --> 00:26:14.510
achieve. Like uh, we don't know why,

620
00:26:14.590 --> 00:26:16.310
we don't know what they are, we don't know

621
00:26:16.310 --> 00:26:19.190
who's doing it. And it's not every single one

622
00:26:19.190 --> 00:26:20.670
they've seen. A lot of these things are

623
00:26:20.670 --> 00:26:21.310
explainable.

624
00:26:21.870 --> 00:26:22.350
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

625
00:26:22.750 --> 00:26:25.150
Andrew Dunkley: Reminds me of a doco I saw many, many years

626
00:26:25.150 --> 00:26:27.950
ago of a witness.

627
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:31.440
Um, uh, like they took footage

628
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.360
of a UFO flying across a mountain

629
00:26:34.360 --> 00:26:36.760
range in the United States

630
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:40.120
and it just looked like your classic

631
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:42.840
cigar shaped um, thing

632
00:26:42.840 --> 00:26:45.640
with portals on the side moving

633
00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:48.200
across the horizon and

634
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:51.480
you'd naturally go, that's a flying saucer.

635
00:26:51.800 --> 00:26:54.440
But when they analyzed it they realized that

636
00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:56.600
because of the circumstances in the

637
00:26:56.600 --> 00:26:58.840
atmosphere at that time, a lot of the detail

638
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.930
of the object was obscured.

639
00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:01.880
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

640
00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:03.760
Andrew Dunkley: And what you were actually seeing was just

641
00:27:03.760 --> 00:27:06.120
the cabin of a light aircraft.

642
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:12.200
You got to take it all with a grain of salt

643
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:15.190
or whatever, um, because uh,

644
00:27:15.320 --> 00:27:18.200
most of these things can be explained. And I

645
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:20.240
also suggest that a lot of the ones that

646
00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.920
can't be explained are probably quite natural

647
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:24.760
or normal or man made.

648
00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:25.720
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

649
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:28.200
Andrew Dunkley: These handful of things that they've been

650
00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:31.120
seeing, um, particularly off the coast of the

651
00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:33.680
United States defy

652
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.680
logic. And that's probably

653
00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:38.720
what this group is all about trying to figure

654
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:39.240
this out.

655
00:27:41.560 --> 00:27:44.480
Professor Fred Watson: Um, the article that you mentioned that

656
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:46.640
we're Talking about from Space.com, i think,

657
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:47.840
is that right? Space.com?

658
00:27:47.840 --> 00:27:48.440
Andrew Dunkley: yes it is.

659
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:52.480
Professor Fred Watson: Also, uh, includes um, a rather

660
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.280
nice graphic which has come from the

661
00:27:55.280 --> 00:27:58.120
Pentagon. It's Pentagon's all Domain

662
00:27:58.120 --> 00:28:00.600
Anomaly Resolution Office. Uh,

663
00:28:01.300 --> 00:28:02.980
and what they've done is they've

664
00:28:03.620 --> 00:28:05.060
collected these

665
00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:08.580
um, UAP reports or UFO reports

666
00:28:08.580 --> 00:28:11.420
as we used to call them from 1996 to

667
00:28:11.420 --> 00:28:14.100
2023. That's a fair number of

668
00:28:14.500 --> 00:28:17.260
years. Uh, and they've done basically a

669
00:28:17.260 --> 00:28:20.260
statistical analysis on them. And so um,

670
00:28:20.260 --> 00:28:23.220
there's you know, a bar

671
00:28:23.540 --> 00:28:26.500
chart that shows how, what sort

672
00:28:26.500 --> 00:28:29.420
of altitude these objects are reported at and

673
00:28:29.420 --> 00:28:32.100
it's typically about 20,000 Fe,

674
00:28:32.660 --> 00:28:35.600
uh, a bit less than what most commercial

675
00:28:35.600 --> 00:28:38.560
jets fly at, uh, 20,000 to

676
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:41.440
25,000ft. Um, but also

677
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:45.640
there are, you know, basically what we call

678
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:47.320
the morphology, the shape of these things.

679
00:28:47.320 --> 00:28:50.040
There's a breakdown of that and m, uh, almost

680
00:28:50.040 --> 00:28:52.680
half of them are spherical, uh, some sort of

681
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:55.600
sphere. And that actually kind of

682
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.600
suggests to me something natural because

683
00:28:58.600 --> 00:29:01.040
a lot of things turn spherical in nature.

684
00:29:01.360 --> 00:29:03.540
Yeah, um, but there's also

685
00:29:04.020 --> 00:29:06.900
uh, typical Characteristics. And

686
00:29:07.060 --> 00:29:10.060
what I thought was most interesting was a map

687
00:29:10.060 --> 00:29:12.500
of the world that's got the

688
00:29:12.820 --> 00:29:15.780
reported UAP hotspots on it. And

689
00:29:15.780 --> 00:29:18.260
they are the east and west coast of the usa,

690
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:21.660
um, a lot in the Persian

691
00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:24.500
Gulf region. That's a hot spot at the moment.

692
00:29:24.500 --> 00:29:27.300
Yes, very interesting. And also

693
00:29:27.300 --> 00:29:29.650
in uh, Northern China. And um,

694
00:29:30.090 --> 00:29:32.570
these are ah, sort of mid latitudes. Just a

695
00:29:32.570 --> 00:29:34.570
strip of them in the Northern hemisphere.

696
00:29:35.210 --> 00:29:38.090
Nothing pretty well anywhere else. I mean

697
00:29:38.090 --> 00:29:40.890
there are thought to be things that

698
00:29:41.050 --> 00:29:42.850
might be called hotspots where people think

699
00:29:42.850 --> 00:29:44.850
they've seen something in other parts of the

700
00:29:44.850 --> 00:29:47.730
world. But these reported UAP hotspots

701
00:29:47.730 --> 00:29:49.930
are very much in those middle latitudes in

702
00:29:49.930 --> 00:29:50.890
the northern hemisphere.

703
00:29:51.290 --> 00:29:51.770
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

704
00:29:52.010 --> 00:29:52.890
Professor Fred Watson: What does that mean?

705
00:29:53.450 --> 00:29:56.380
Andrew Dunkley: Well, it could mean two things. They

706
00:29:56.380 --> 00:29:59.220
are there for a specific reason because of

707
00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:02.740
the um, target areas, or

708
00:30:03.220 --> 00:30:05.140
we're just not seeing them in other places

709
00:30:05.140 --> 00:30:06.740
because it's not as heavily monitored.

710
00:30:06.820 --> 00:30:09.620
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, a selection effect could be

711
00:30:09.620 --> 00:30:11.739
true. Could be either of those. So anyway,

712
00:30:11.739 --> 00:30:14.050
we, you know, notwithstanding all that, uh,

713
00:30:14.050 --> 00:30:17.020
we await with interest to see what

714
00:30:17.020 --> 00:30:19.160
the deliberations of this new council are,

715
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:21.500
uh, and whether they come up with anything

716
00:30:21.500 --> 00:30:23.860
concrete that we can say about these UAPs.

717
00:30:25.060 --> 00:30:27.260
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, well, uh, hopefully they'll come up with

718
00:30:27.260 --> 00:30:29.200
something concrete, although they're probably

719
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:32.080
not made of concrete. But I gotta say

720
00:30:32.080 --> 00:30:34.120
at the bottom of the uh, Space.com article

721
00:30:34.120 --> 00:30:37.120
there's some um, comments from readers and

722
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.160
um, I love some of the thoughts.

723
00:30:40.760 --> 00:30:43.560
Uh, one person says UFO chatter is

724
00:30:43.560 --> 00:30:45.560
finally getting a serious data driven

725
00:30:45.560 --> 00:30:48.400
treatment. Um, someone else says given

726
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:51.040
Loeb's track record, how could he possibly

727
00:30:51.040 --> 00:30:53.520
keep it rigorous? Uh, someone else says good

728
00:30:53.520 --> 00:30:54.960
luck to Professor Loeb and his highly

729
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:56.720
esteemed team of professional men and women.

730
00:30:57.040 --> 00:30:58.860
My favorite though is this one.

731
00:30:59.970 --> 00:31:01.890
Guess the Ghostbusters were unavailable.

732
00:31:04.370 --> 00:31:07.290
Yes, that's uh. I love it. I love

733
00:31:07.290 --> 00:31:07.570
it.

734
00:31:07.730 --> 00:31:08.370
Professor Fred Watson: There you go.

735
00:31:08.690 --> 00:31:09.890
Andrew Dunkley: People are awesome.

736
00:31:10.690 --> 00:31:11.170
Professor Fred Watson: They are.

737
00:31:11.170 --> 00:31:12.810
Andrew Dunkley: They just come up with some really good lines

738
00:31:12.810 --> 00:31:15.490
sometimes. If, uh, you want to read all about

739
00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:17.290
that new group, it's probably all over the

740
00:31:17.290 --> 00:31:19.890
Internet everywhere. But uh, Space.com has

741
00:31:19.890 --> 00:31:21.690
done a very, very good article on it with all

742
00:31:21.690 --> 00:31:24.650
the bells and whistles and I think we're just

743
00:31:24.650 --> 00:31:26.280
about done. Fred, thank you very much.

744
00:31:26.750 --> 00:31:29.470
Professor Fred Watson: Well, that went very quickly, Andrew. Maybe

745
00:31:29.470 --> 00:31:32.350
it's just that we're both losing it and it's

746
00:31:32.510 --> 00:31:34.350
time's passing without us knowing.

747
00:31:34.670 --> 00:31:36.670
Andrew Dunkley: Indeed. Catch you very soon though.

748
00:31:36.830 --> 00:31:38.670
Professor Fred Watson: I hope so. Look forward to it.

749
00:31:38.670 --> 00:31:38.990
Cheers.

750
00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:41.030
Andrew Dunkley: For now, Professor Fred Watson, Astronomer at

751
00:31:41.030 --> 00:31:42.870
large. And don't forget to visit our website

752
00:31:42.870 --> 00:31:45.070
in between episodes and check it out. Uh,

753
00:31:45.070 --> 00:31:47.030
there's plenty to see and do. Of course, all

754
00:31:47.030 --> 00:31:49.990
our episodes are there. You can also send us

755
00:31:49.990 --> 00:31:52.590
messages or questions via the Ask Me Anything

756
00:31:52.670 --> 00:31:54.790
tab. At the top, it's labeled AMA M.

757
00:31:55.710 --> 00:31:57.670
Uh, you can sign up for the Astronomy Daily

758
00:31:57.670 --> 00:32:00.450
News feed and get, uh, Astronomical News

759
00:32:00.450 --> 00:32:03.290
piped straight to your email. Everybody loves

760
00:32:03.610 --> 00:32:06.530
that stuff. And, uh, plenty more to see and

761
00:32:06.530 --> 00:32:09.010
do. Uh, you can even become, uh, a supporter.

762
00:32:09.010 --> 00:32:11.970
And we don't ask that you do that. It's not

763
00:32:11.970 --> 00:32:14.329
mandatory, but if you're interested, you can

764
00:32:14.329 --> 00:32:16.450
certainly go and have a look. And thanks to

765
00:32:16.450 --> 00:32:18.410
Huw in the studio who can't be with us today.

766
00:32:18.410 --> 00:32:20.970
He got a phone call from Abby Loeb asking

767
00:32:21.050 --> 00:32:23.610
strange questions about his very odd car.

768
00:32:24.410 --> 00:32:26.290
And from me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for your

769
00:32:26.290 --> 00:32:28.090
company. We'll see you on the next episode of

770
00:32:28.090 --> 00:32:29.440
Space Nuts. Coming soon.

771
00:32:29.510 --> 00:32:29.670
Professor Fred Watson: Soon.

772
00:32:29.670 --> 00:32:29.950
Andrew Dunkley: Bye.

773
00:32:29.950 --> 00:32:30.310
Professor Fred Watson: Bye.

774
00:32:30.890 --> 00:32:33.630
Andrew Dunkley: Uh, you've been listening to the Space Nuts

775
00:32:33.630 --> 00:32:36.590
podcast, available at

776
00:32:36.590 --> 00:32:38.630
Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

777
00:32:38.790 --> 00:32:41.550
iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast

778
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player. You can also stream on

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demand@bytes.um.com.

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Professor Fred Watson: this has been another quality podcast

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production from bytes.com.