The Galaxy’s Sugary Center Could Change How Life Began

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Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks again for joining us. This

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is Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy, space

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science and anything else that tends to pop

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up. We've talked about trains, we've talked

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about movies, we've talked about dogs and

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cats and we might be talking about dogs

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today. In fact, we are, strangely enough,

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nothing to do with the Dog Star either. We're

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also, uh, going to talk about something quite

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sweet. We did Salty recently with the Pink

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Planet, but now we've found out, um,

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there's a sugary centre in our, uh, galaxy.

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And what might happen when we land on the

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moon again. Uh, it's not good news, as it

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turns out. We'll talk about all of that on

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this episode of space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. 2, 3, 4,

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5, 5, 4, 3, 2', 1.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.

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Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good.

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Andrew Dunkley: He's back again for more. I don't know how he

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keeps it up because, um, I don't know. I

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worked in radio for 40 years and lost my

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voice many times. So Fred Watson never loses

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his. It's Professor Fred Watson Watson,

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Astronomer at Large. Hello, Fred Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. Um, you probably jinxed us

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now. I probably have coughing in the

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bathroom.

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Andrew Dunkley: One famous case I must tell you about. I

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worked for a rock station in Newcastle many

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years ago and I was doing a Saturday

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afternoon shift.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: And I must have had a virus of some kind

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that, that was sort of living underneath the

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radar. And during the progression

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of my four hour shift. Was it four or six?

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Might have been six. My voice just

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deteriorated and deteriorated to the point

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where I actually couldn't talk, couldn't make

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a sound. And the programme director

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rang and said, what's going on?

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Professor Fred Watson: I said.

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Andrew Dunkley: So he had to come in and take over from me.

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Was not happy. I mean, I can't.

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Professor Fred Watson: You can't help it. No, you can't. That's

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right, you can't help it.

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Andrew Dunkley: But, uh, yeah, that's one of my famous

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moments in radio. Or is it infamous? I don't

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know.

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Professor Fred Watson: Infamous. That's right, yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Amongst many. I should write a book.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, that's what you need to do. Yes, you

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should, you should write a book.

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Andrew Dunkley: Because behind the scenes in radio, um, most

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people never know any of the stuff that

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happens. And some weird stuff happens. Yes,

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some very weird stuff.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yep, yep.

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Andrew Dunkley: Now, Fred Watson, uh. Oh, how are you, by the

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way?

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, I'm fine, thank you. Uh, all good. Still

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supporting my, um, collision with the screen

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door the other night.

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Andrew Dunkley: But it's looking a little better.

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Professor Fred Watson: It's Getting better.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, the orbital rotation is starting to,

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you know, look less radical.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, no, it's good. Uh, I wear it with

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pride.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, you do. Um, at your age, though, it

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might take 10 years to fade.

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Now, um,

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before we get started, uh, we've received,

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um, a message from, um, uh, one of your,

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um, friends and colleagues.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, from Peter Verwein, who's our link

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with the world of Mondo Modified Newtonian

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Dynamics. I actually saw him, uh,

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last week at the, uh, Astronomical Society of

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Australia's annual science meeting and

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he said he'd dropped me a line with an update

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and I, uh, asked him if he'd mind if I read

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the update out on Space Notes. And he said

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no, he wouldn't. Uh, but he did preface it

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by, um, having, uh,

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mentioning that they'd heard from the

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originator of mond, Modified Newtonian

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Dynamics, Mordechai Milgrom, who,

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um, seems to be calling it something else

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now, uh, which was Ether

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Scalar tensor theory.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh my goodness.

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Professor Fred Watson: Aest. Uh, yeah, uh,

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but, um, uh, he

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basically keeps going with his research.

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Although, um, Peter suspects he's

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suggesting that the theory needs a complete

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rethink, which apparently Peter's been doing

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as well. Let me read what he says though,

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because I think it's quite interesting for

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anybody who's been following this argument.

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Mond, of course, is an alternative theory,

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uh, of, um, basically

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gravity. Except it's not gravity, it's

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acceleration, uh, which postulates

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that at very low accelerations, uh,

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Newton's laws don't hold. The accelerations

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behave in a different way. Uh, and by

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very low, I mean the kind of accelerations

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that you get outside. Um,

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sorry, in terms of the movement of

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objects around a galaxy, uh, things in the

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solar system are accelerating too rapidly for

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this to show up. That was the original

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premise. And it's of course, uh, an

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explanation for why galaxies don't fly apart

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as we think they should, because they're

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rotating too fast for what we can see to hold

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them together. And of course that's why we

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postulate dark matter, the stuff that we

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think is invisible but does hold them

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together. So, reading from Peter's

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email, uh, he says in a very vague sense

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the universe might be like an onion, a bit

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like Shrek, if you know the movie reference.

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Imagine a bubble universe expanding from

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within its progenitor universe. In this case,

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the word universe can still be because like

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an onion over time as bubble universes

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explode into existence. Yes, like a Big Bang.

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Within the universe we get layers.

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Penrose's book, Cycles of Time

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explains the concept of a cyclic universe

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quite well, but he does some mathematical

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magic with how he handles scaling.

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Our idea is similar but offers an alternative

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explanation as to why these bubbles explode

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in the first place. And uh, as our

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idea develops, not a theory yet, we are

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noting similarities to other theories and

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models like K essence, which,

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um, I haven't heard of. And I bet you haven't

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either, Andrew. No, um, there's much to do to

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fully develop this into a theory that

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explains dark energy and dark matter. But one

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thing to note, looking for evidence of

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modified gravity around a black hole should

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be like looking for a needle in a needle

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stack. That's why the paper reporting

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mass discrepancies around supermassive black

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holes might put a dampener on quite a few

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modified gravity ideas. And

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we actually covered that, that uh, it was uh,

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the evidence that there's stuff outside a

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black hole that is not normal matter.

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So thank you very much, Peter. Thanks for the

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update. And um, we'll continue

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to watch with interest what happens in the

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world of mond.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed.

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, sorry, aast.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, as it's now called. Uh,

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yes, and lovely to hear from Peter as well.

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It's great that we get these little pieces of

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input from everyone

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and anyone

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Professor Fred Watson: friends around the world.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed. Let's get into our topics

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for today, Fred Watson.

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And our first one sort um of follows on

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from um, its uh,

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opposing, um, platform which was

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our salty pink planet, which we spoke about,

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um, uh, a few episodes back.

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This uh, is at the opposite end of the

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scale. We're going from salty to very sweet,

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uh, because it looks like our galaxy has a

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sugary centre. Now what's interesting to

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me, Fred Watson, is that sugar in the

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universe is not uncommon.

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Professor Fred Watson: It's not. That's right. Uh, we've

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found it apparently, um, in

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um, asteroids actually.

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Andrew Dunkley: Uh, and wait for it. That's why

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the universe is expanding at an accelerating

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rate.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, that could be one explanation. That's

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right. And it's certainly the waistline

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that's expanding. Uh, so yes,

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uh, it's a sugar. There are, there are. Sugar

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comes in different varieties. It's basically

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a chemical, um, defined by the

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number of carbon atoms there are in it

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and how it combines with other atoms. So

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this particular one is called

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erythrulose. I'm not sure whether I'm

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pronouncing that correctly, but that's what

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it looks like. Um, and its chemical formula

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is C4H8O4. So

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four atoms each of carbon and oxygen and

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eight of hydrogen. Um, so,

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uh, it Comes under a classification known as

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ketos. I've heard of those. As you know, I'm

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not a chemist.

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Andrew Dunkley: So isn't there a keto diet or am I getting

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that mixed up with something?

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Professor Fred Watson: It could be, yeah, yeah, could be all sorts

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of things. All sorts of diets these days.

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Yes. But it, but it's this time.

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These molecules of sugar have been

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detected in interstellar space rather

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than, you know, in, um, uh,

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meteorites or asteroid samples or whatever.

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Uh, and those gas clouds where

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they've been detected are actually near the

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centre of our galaxy. So it seems

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that it is probably something quite

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ubiquitous in the galaxy. Uh,

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um. It's a particular class of sugar and

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I'm sure you've noted that it is actually the

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same sugar that you find in raspberries.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, which, um. Yeah, it's just.

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It's bizarre, isn't it? I don't know why

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we're surprised, because. No, that's right.

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Andrew Dunkley: We are made up of the stuff of the universe,

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so it stands to reason.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, that's correct. Uh, and, uh, yes, it

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does. And, um. So basically,

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you know, uh, sugar is one of the.

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What you might call a prebiotic here. I'm

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losing my voice after our conversation

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before, what we might call a

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prebiotic molecule, um, one

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that, uh, is what we do, loosely termed

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part of the building blocks of life. But

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they, you know, these key ingredients of life

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basically conform deep in the

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universe, uh, in these, what are called

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molecular clouds, uh, giant molecular

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clouds, molecular nebulae, uh, and

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you can get them before stars and planets

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form. That's the bottom line. So you don't

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need the planet formation process or the star

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formation process to synthesise sugar. It

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can happen in the cold of, uh, space.

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Andrew Dunkley: That's amazing.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. It's quite extraordinary.

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Um, uh, it's

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basically some research that's come from

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Spanish astronomers, using Spanish

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telescopes, I think, radio telescopes. Uh,

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so a very interesting piece of research and

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there's a sort of corollary which, uh,

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suggests that perhaps in the

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early universe, perhaps before the solar

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system formed, um, the

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residual gas cloud in

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which the solar system, um,

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formed had sugar in it, which

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suggests perhaps the young

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Earth and the young solar system was

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bombarded by these sugar molecules,

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uh, as the formation took place. We don't

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know that, but that's a suggestion that's

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been made. So, yeah, um, and there's a lot

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of it, uh, this stuff. So it's, uh, sitting

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there in the galactic centre, sweetening it

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very nicely.

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Andrew Dunkley: Amazing. And, uh, interesting. And I suppose

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it just adds one more flavour. Boom boom. To

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all of those things that are out there that

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we're learning are uh, very, very common now

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like water, uh, salt and

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iron and all this other

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stuff. It's all just part of

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the conglomeration we call the universe.

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And yeah, shouldn't be surprising that we've

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found sugar which um, will

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make a lot of people happy. There's a lot of

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sugar addicts out there.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, there's one sitting here.

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Andrew Dunkley: I'm one of them as well.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: M. My wife is more of the salty variety.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: Uh, if you'd like to read all about it,

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there's a great article on the

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abc.net.au

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website about it. And uh, I'm guessing there

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was a paper published Fred Watson, which I

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have not been able to find while we've been

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talking.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it's in nature astronomy.

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Andrew Dunkley: Of course it is. Yes. There you go. This is

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Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor

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Fred Watson Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: I'm going to step off the land now.

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That's one small step for man,

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one biofuel for mankind.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space Nuts.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay Fred Watson, let's uh, go back to the

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moon. It's uh, certainly getting a lot of

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attention at the moment with the Artemis

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missions and the, the Chines

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presence on the Moon at the moment. Uh, but

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there's a downside to all of this. We're

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putting people back on the Moon in the not

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too distant future. But uh,

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there's concern that this could mess a few

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things up. Particularly um, the way

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we might destroy evidence of the

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origins of life on Earth.

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Professor Fred Watson: Correct. Uh, and that's

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uh, all tied up with kind

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of the reason why um, we're going to the Moon

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in the first place. Uh, and that

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is uh, uh, certainly all the

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in terms of the Artemis mission.

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Uh, the

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cratered regions of the Moon's south pole. In

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particular the Moon's south polar region is

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very heavily cratered. It's mountainous and

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it's not a good place to land. But that's

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apparently where we're going to land. Uh, but

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uh, because of the fact that some of these

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deep craters ah are

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never illuminated by the sun, they're in

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perpetual shadow. Uh, we know,

335
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uh, at least we did deeply suspect or

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um, perhaps securely suspect that's the way

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to put it, uh, that um, they

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contain uh, ice and

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it's not just a guess. That comes from

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measurements that have been made particularly

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by orbiting spacecraft over the last um,

342
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decade or two. So we think there is

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ice and it's water ice frozen Water,

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uh, down there in these deep craters. Uh,

345
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and. But that ice could

346
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be a bit of a treasure trove

347
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of the stuff

348
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that would have been entrapped,

349
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uh, coming from space debris, dust,

350
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probably, uh, interstellar, interplanetary

351
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dust. Uh, there's probably stuff that hit

352
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from asteroids in the early history of the

353
00:14:16.510 --> 00:14:18.510
solar system and comets. Um,

354
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so we think there might be this trove of

355
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ancient molecules, again, a bit like what

356
00:14:24.590 --> 00:14:26.450
we've just been talking about, trapped in the

357
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ice near the southern polar regions or in

358
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the southern polar regions of the Moon.

359
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Um, and they're something that we'd really

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like to know about, um, because

361
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if we could, um, see some of these

362
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molecules, um, which no longer exist

363
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on the Earth because the Earth is a very

364
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dynamic geology and atmospheric

365
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physics. Um, they've been recycled,

366
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they've turned into life, they've done all

367
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their thing. But if we could find these

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prebiotic molecules on the Moon,

369
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uh, uh, that might be a way of

370
00:15:01.230 --> 00:15:04.110
seeing how they eventually combined and

371
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life emerged. Uh, that would be a

372
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sensational discovery to work out

373
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what triggers life. How does it start? Uh, we

374
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know that the prerequisites of life,

375
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molecular prerequisites, are, uh, sort

376
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of everywhere. But, uh, we don't know what

377
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the chemistry was like that caused life to

378
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come into being. So because the moon is

379
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almost like a time capsule in this regard,

380
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uh, we would like to preserve this ice, uh,

381
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and keep it safe. Um,

382
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so, uh, where it is now is fine.

383
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But the landing

384
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process of bringing a spacecraft down to the

385
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moon has an issue in

386
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relation to this ice and it is done by,

387
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um. This has been flagged because of

388
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computer modelling that's been carried out,

389
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uh, in the study that we're reporting. Um,

390
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and that modelling suggests

391
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that, uh, the

392
00:16:05.550 --> 00:16:08.070
exhaust that comes from the

393
00:16:08.950 --> 00:16:11.310
rockets, the motors that will be used to

394
00:16:11.310 --> 00:16:13.550
touch down on the moon, and there isn't

395
00:16:13.550 --> 00:16:16.430
really another way of doing it. You can't do

396
00:16:16.430 --> 00:16:18.110
a re entry like the shuttle did because

397
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there's no atmosphere to re enter. But the

398
00:16:20.190 --> 00:16:22.790
exhaust is rich in methane and

399
00:16:23.190 --> 00:16:26.030
that, uh, methane, apparently

400
00:16:26.030 --> 00:16:28.150
the modelling shows that it could very

401
00:16:28.150 --> 00:16:30.440
quickly and, and

402
00:16:30.760 --> 00:16:33.640
permanently contaminate the ice

403
00:16:34.520 --> 00:16:36.800
and basically get rid of any

404
00:16:36.800 --> 00:16:39.240
molecule, evidence, uh, that

405
00:16:39.880 --> 00:16:41.960
we would have found in them otherwise.

406
00:16:42.520 --> 00:16:45.320
Uh, the modelling suggests

407
00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:48.320
that, um, what are called

408
00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:51.040
the organic components, which are part of the

409
00:16:51.040 --> 00:16:53.960
exhaust of these lunar landers, would spread

410
00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:57.080
across the moon's surface very, very rapidly.

411
00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:59.780
Um, uh, and they basically

412
00:17:00.660 --> 00:17:02.820
studied, uh, how that would happen, including

413
00:17:03.460 --> 00:17:05.380
the radiation from the sun, including the

414
00:17:05.380 --> 00:17:07.780
solar wind. But there is a

415
00:17:07.780 --> 00:17:10.420
suggestion that that atmosphere

416
00:17:10.580 --> 00:17:13.540
that methane, uh, could very

417
00:17:13.540 --> 00:17:16.220
rapidly, uh, cover the whole of the lunar

418
00:17:16.220 --> 00:17:19.020
surface. Uh, the suggestion

419
00:17:19.020 --> 00:17:21.820
is possibly, uh, reaching from the

420
00:17:21.820 --> 00:17:24.340
moon's south pole to the north pole, uh,

421
00:17:25.860 --> 00:17:28.620
in less than a month or a couple of months.

422
00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:31.280
What we call two lun. Two lunar days. Yes.

423
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Very, very quickly.

424
00:17:32.560 --> 00:17:33.040
Professor Fred Watson: Wow.

425
00:17:34.190 --> 00:17:36.400
Andrew Dunkley: Uh, that's a bit scary. Uh, I was going to

426
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:38.440
suggest, you know, we've spent all that money

427
00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:40.800
and time going to Mars looking for life and,

428
00:17:40.800 --> 00:17:43.440
you know, it might be next door.

429
00:17:43.950 --> 00:17:46.880
Um, but maybe not. If this keeps up, there's

430
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:48.520
probably nothing much that can be done about

431
00:17:48.520 --> 00:17:49.120
it. Fred Watson.

432
00:17:49.280 --> 00:17:51.400
Professor Fred Watson: That's right. How do you, you know, how do

433
00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:53.680
you, um, essentially

434
00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:56.960
solve this problem? You can't glide down.

435
00:17:57.360 --> 00:17:59.990
It's got to be using rockets, um,

436
00:18:00.080 --> 00:18:02.700
and, um, a space elevator.

437
00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:05.420
Well, yes, the space elevator. There you go.

438
00:18:05.420 --> 00:18:07.340
But you. Yes. I think you've got.

439
00:18:07.340 --> 00:18:08.060
Andrew Dunkley: Too costly.

440
00:18:09.100 --> 00:18:10.860
Professor Fred Watson: You've got to put your rockets on the moon to

441
00:18:10.860 --> 00:18:13.340
start with, to do that. Well, that's the

442
00:18:13.340 --> 00:18:14.860
point. You can't just dangle it down.

443
00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:16.700
Andrew Dunkley: It's a catch 22.

444
00:18:16.940 --> 00:18:19.570
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. There's a comment here from, uh,

445
00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:21.820
one of the scientists involved with this, who

446
00:18:21.820 --> 00:18:23.980
is, uh, actually a Portuguese.

447
00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:27.340
Uh, we have laws regulating contamination

448
00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:29.780
of Earth, uh, environments like Antarctica

449
00:18:29.780 --> 00:18:32.420
and national parks. Uh, I think the moon is

450
00:18:32.420 --> 00:18:34.640
an environment as valuable as those. So the

451
00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.920
suggestion is, you know, maybe there should

452
00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:39.920
be laws protecting the moon. But the. As

453
00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:42.080
you said, what's the answer to that? Well,

454
00:18:42.080 --> 00:18:44.680
don't go there. That's really

455
00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:46.640
a, uh, very, very interesting piece of

456
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:48.700
research. I'm sure this is going to promote,

457
00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:51.640
uh, or prompt a lot of conversation

458
00:18:52.040 --> 00:18:54.600
and perhaps debate about the ethics of this.

459
00:18:54.600 --> 00:18:57.160
And, uh, it'll be checked, I'm sure, very,

460
00:18:57.160 --> 00:18:59.800
very much, uh, very carefully,

461
00:18:59.960 --> 00:19:01.910
because that's a really important result.

462
00:19:02.870 --> 00:19:05.710
Andrew Dunkley: Yes. Uh, and look, they could

463
00:19:05.710 --> 00:19:08.390
introduce, uh, an international law

464
00:19:08.470 --> 00:19:10.590
saying, okay, moon's off limits. It's a

465
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national park. Can't go there. Um,

466
00:19:13.430 --> 00:19:16.350
but people will. Anyway, it's the same as we

467
00:19:16.350 --> 00:19:19.070
were talking about, um, recently with

468
00:19:19.070 --> 00:19:21.710
nuclear weapons. We already think they're up

469
00:19:21.710 --> 00:19:23.830
in space even though they're not allowed.

470
00:19:23.990 --> 00:19:25.510
Professor Fred Watson: Yep, Yep, that's right.

471
00:19:25.670 --> 00:19:28.560
Andrew Dunkley: So, you know, here's another one. So

472
00:19:29.040 --> 00:19:30.320
that's not going to work either.

473
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:31.920
Professor Fred Watson: I think you're right.

474
00:19:33.870 --> 00:19:35.680
Uh, knowing human nature, I think you're

475
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:37.800
right. And the world we live in today as

476
00:19:37.800 --> 00:19:38.080
well.

477
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.620
Andrew Dunkley: Well, you know, it's, it's. It's the old, um,

478
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:44.640
sign on the fence that says do not enter.

479
00:19:44.800 --> 00:19:45.280
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

480
00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:47.200
Andrew Dunkley: You know, someone's going to ignore that.

481
00:19:47.280 --> 00:19:48.960
Professor Fred Watson: Yes. Oh, I better go and have a look.

482
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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

483
00:19:49.600 --> 00:19:51.280
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, but my Frisbee.

484
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:52.800
Andrew Dunkley: I've got to get my Frisbee.

485
00:19:52.800 --> 00:19:55.700
Professor Fred Watson: Yes. What am I doing? What am I doing? Just

486
00:19:55.700 --> 00:19:56.300
for a segue.

487
00:19:56.300 --> 00:19:59.300
Andrew Dunkley: There. That's what we'll talk about next. But

488
00:19:59.300 --> 00:20:01.020
if you'd like to follow up on that storey,

489
00:20:01.020 --> 00:20:03.460
it's on the space.com website or you can read

490
00:20:03.460 --> 00:20:05.900
the study which was published in the journal,

491
00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:09.060
uh, the American Geophysical Union. This is

492
00:20:09.060 --> 00:20:11.780
Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor

493
00:20:11.780 --> 00:20:12.780
Fred Watson Watson.

494
00:20:15.580 --> 00:20:16.700
Professor Fred Watson: Space Nuts.

495
00:20:17.020 --> 00:20:18.820
Andrew Dunkley: Now, Fred Watson, uh, we're going to the

496
00:20:18.820 --> 00:20:21.660
dogs, um, lost dogs specifically. Now

497
00:20:21.820 --> 00:20:24.420
that's not uncommon, especially after a

498
00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:26.820
thunderstorm or a tornado. Um,

499
00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:31.280
and you often see signs around town. You

500
00:20:31.280 --> 00:20:33.280
know, have you seen my dog? There's a pretty

501
00:20:33.280 --> 00:20:35.240
picture of the dog on the top of the A4

502
00:20:35.560 --> 00:20:36.120
banner.

503
00:20:36.280 --> 00:20:36.840
Professor Fred Watson: Yep.

504
00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:39.400
Andrew Dunkley: But, um, when you're in an area,

505
00:20:40.020 --> 00:20:42.440
um, beyond. And there's technology around

506
00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:45.280
these days where you can put gps, um,

507
00:20:45.280 --> 00:20:48.160
or you can put trackers that require

508
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:50.400
cell phone coverage and things like that on

509
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:53.360
your dogs. Um, but that's not

510
00:20:53.360 --> 00:20:56.270
always practical. Um, but

511
00:20:56.270 --> 00:20:58.630
now there's a new way, and this is really

512
00:20:58.630 --> 00:21:01.540
quite fascinating about, uh, using, uh,

513
00:21:01.540 --> 00:21:04.510
GPS systems, satellite systems

514
00:21:05.070 --> 00:21:06.990
to connect to your dog's collar.

515
00:21:07.710 --> 00:21:10.670
Professor Fred Watson: Yes. So you're right,

516
00:21:10.670 --> 00:21:13.070
that's the perfect intro because, um, these

517
00:21:13.390 --> 00:21:15.790
devices do exist. Of course. There's um, you

518
00:21:15.790 --> 00:21:18.430
know, many of us have got air tags that we

519
00:21:18.510 --> 00:21:21.430
use to keep tracks on, ah, our luggage

520
00:21:21.430 --> 00:21:23.200
and, and things of that sort. Um,

521
00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:27.680
and um, we can certainly

522
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:30.560
find one of those if it's hanging around your

523
00:21:30.560 --> 00:21:33.040
dog's neck. Uh, actually our dog doesn't have

524
00:21:33.040 --> 00:21:35.680
one. Uh, but um, most of my other

525
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:38.680
stuff does, uh, which doesn't walk away,

526
00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.680
it just gets left behind. Uh, but the

527
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:44.520
issue arises that if you're away

528
00:21:44.600 --> 00:21:47.160
from a, ah, sort of standard suburban area

529
00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.880
and you really are exploring the wilderness,

530
00:21:50.710 --> 00:21:53.130
uh, you're nowhere near a cell tower. And

531
00:21:53.130 --> 00:21:55.850
that means that these devices simply don't

532
00:21:55.850 --> 00:21:58.610
work. You can't locate your possession or

533
00:21:58.610 --> 00:22:01.210
your dog. Uh, and so this

534
00:22:01.530 --> 00:22:04.330
storey is basically about

535
00:22:04.570 --> 00:22:06.810
how you can use,

536
00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:10.100
guess what, the Starlink technology, uh,

537
00:22:11.010 --> 00:22:13.890
um, to essentially find

538
00:22:13.890 --> 00:22:16.850
your dog even when it's not in

539
00:22:16.850 --> 00:22:18.980
a, uh, a place covered by a

540
00:22:19.460 --> 00:22:22.100
cellular network. So,

541
00:22:22.110 --> 00:22:25.060
uh, that's rather an interesting

542
00:22:25.060 --> 00:22:27.420
thing because it means that if you are in the

543
00:22:27.420 --> 00:22:30.100
middle of nowhere, uh, no phone

544
00:22:30.100 --> 00:22:33.059
coverage, uh, your dog gets lost, you

545
00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:34.500
can find it. But if you haven't got phone

546
00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:36.260
coverage, you're not going to know where it

547
00:22:36.260 --> 00:22:38.300
is. So you've got to have a satellite phone

548
00:22:38.300 --> 00:22:41.140
as well. Um, so if you've got that,

549
00:22:41.320 --> 00:22:44.090
um, then you can find your dog. Now, um,

550
00:22:44.630 --> 00:22:47.590
I am assuming that this relates to places

551
00:22:47.590 --> 00:22:49.910
where it's not illegal to take your dog into

552
00:22:50.390 --> 00:22:53.390
wilderness areas, uh, as it is in

553
00:22:53.390 --> 00:22:56.190
much of Australia, because of the fact that

554
00:22:56.190 --> 00:22:58.870
we do have endangered species,

555
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:01.430
uh, all through our country. And so dogs are

556
00:23:01.430 --> 00:23:03.550
the last thing that you want. Yeah, we have

557
00:23:03.550 --> 00:23:05.030
dog fences, in fact, don't we?

558
00:23:05.030 --> 00:23:07.150
Andrew Dunkley: We do. We do have dog fences and rabbit

559
00:23:07.150 --> 00:23:09.390
fences and all sorts of things to stop the

560
00:23:09.390 --> 00:23:10.390
nasties getting through.

561
00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:11.190
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

562
00:23:11.260 --> 00:23:13.710
Andrew Dunkley: Um, Jordie would not need this kind of

563
00:23:13.710 --> 00:23:16.060
technology because when he barks in sy.

564
00:23:16.130 --> 00:23:18.050
Sydney, I can hear him 300 miles away.

565
00:23:19.970 --> 00:23:22.170
Professor Fred Watson: He just does one of his howls and everybody

566
00:23:22.170 --> 00:23:22.570
knows.

567
00:23:22.570 --> 00:23:24.650
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, the whole district knows. Yeah.

568
00:23:24.650 --> 00:23:25.090
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

569
00:23:25.350 --> 00:23:28.130
Andrew Dunkley: Um, that. That's not an uncommon

570
00:23:28.130 --> 00:23:30.930
issue in, um, residential areas.

571
00:23:31.190 --> 00:23:34.030
Uh, the dog barking problems. Um,

572
00:23:35.330 --> 00:23:38.330
so this is a fairly new thing from what I've

573
00:23:38.330 --> 00:23:41.290
read, because, uh, it sort of came on

574
00:23:41.290 --> 00:23:43.090
the back of the Starlink technology.

575
00:23:44.130 --> 00:23:46.830
Um, but it's also a

576
00:23:46.830 --> 00:23:49.710
fairly simple thing, I suppose. Uh, if

577
00:23:49.710 --> 00:23:51.510
you are out in the wilderness and there's no

578
00:23:51.510 --> 00:23:54.470
mobile coverage and your dog chases a bear or

579
00:23:54.630 --> 00:23:57.470
whatever, this could

580
00:23:57.470 --> 00:23:58.390
save its life.

581
00:23:59.650 --> 00:24:02.070
Professor Fred Watson: Um, that's correct, yes. Uh,

582
00:24:02.870 --> 00:24:04.950
I guess that's the good side of the storey.

583
00:24:05.590 --> 00:24:08.430
So, um, there have

584
00:24:08.430 --> 00:24:11.350
been animal

585
00:24:11.350 --> 00:24:14.320
trackers for a while. Apparently, uh, 11

586
00:24:14.320 --> 00:24:16.920
million dogs tracked or monitored by

587
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:19.900
GPS in some form. Is that true, uh,

588
00:24:20.360 --> 00:24:21.840
throughout the world? Yeah. That doesn't

589
00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:23.720
surprise me there. There's a lot of dogs in

590
00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:26.440
the world. But, um, this is a step,

591
00:24:26.600 --> 00:24:28.840
you know, a step further, this, uh, this new

592
00:24:28.840 --> 00:24:31.760
connectivity, uh, because it's a. It's

593
00:24:31.760 --> 00:24:33.810
a bit like, um,

594
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:36.520
D2M, which is direct to mobile

595
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.720
from using satellites. If you've got

596
00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:41.840
direct to mobile, then you've basically got a

597
00:24:41.840 --> 00:24:43.800
satellite phone and I think Starlink,

598
00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:47.740
um, um, bringing that out quite soon, if they

599
00:24:47.740 --> 00:24:50.020
haven't done already. So it's that sort of

600
00:24:50.020 --> 00:24:52.300
technology. It's the direct to mobile or

601
00:24:52.300 --> 00:24:55.300
direct to cell technology, uh, that,

602
00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:57.340
um. That you can now adapt to dogs,

603
00:24:57.340 --> 00:24:57.940
apparently.

604
00:24:58.820 --> 00:25:00.979
Andrew Dunkley: Well, now that's a good thing because dogs do

605
00:25:00.979 --> 00:25:03.140
run away. They get excited and they wander

606
00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:05.580
off and. Or they. Or they meet another dog

607
00:25:05.580 --> 00:25:08.180
and next thing you know they're in Siberia.

608
00:25:09.620 --> 00:25:12.540
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, it's happened. It

609
00:25:12.540 --> 00:25:13.010
has, yeah.

610
00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:15.800
Andrew Dunkley: This reminds me of something that was done

611
00:25:15.800 --> 00:25:18.440
many, many years ago, uh, up around

612
00:25:18.760 --> 00:25:21.400
the, uh, Warren Bungles. Uh, we used to live,

613
00:25:21.430 --> 00:25:23.960
uh, in Cootabarabra and

614
00:25:24.040 --> 00:25:26.850
it was, uh, uh,

615
00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:29.480
the Judas Goat programme. You remember that?

616
00:25:30.280 --> 00:25:31.160
Judas, uh, goats.

617
00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:33.480
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I do. I do remember that.

618
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:36.080
Andrew Dunkley: Goats are an invasive species and they cause

619
00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:38.000
a lot of damage. In national parks in

620
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.280
Australia. So what the National Park Service

621
00:25:40.280 --> 00:25:43.250
did was they would put, uh,

622
00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:46.160
a tracking collar. Collar, a GPS collar

623
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:49.160
on a goat and they would release the

624
00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:51.280
goat into the national park,

625
00:25:51.840 --> 00:25:54.160
knowing that it would eventually find a herd

626
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:55.200
of feral goats.

627
00:25:55.520 --> 00:25:56.080
Professor Fred Watson: Yep.

628
00:25:56.320 --> 00:25:57.840
Andrew Dunkley: And then they could go in and.

629
00:25:58.320 --> 00:25:58.840
Professor Fred Watson: Yep.

630
00:25:58.840 --> 00:26:00.320
Andrew Dunkley: Let's just say deal with them.

631
00:26:00.399 --> 00:26:02.280
Professor Fred Watson: They do deal with them. They use helicopters

632
00:26:02.280 --> 00:26:02.640
as well.

633
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:05.240
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, they do. So the, the old Judas

634
00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:05.760
goat.

635
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:06.400
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

636
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:09.560
Andrew Dunkley: Was, um, using, uh, this kind

637
00:26:09.560 --> 00:26:11.760
of technology, but, uh, now it's more freely

638
00:26:11.760 --> 00:26:13.980
available for, um, for. For domestic

639
00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:15.460
purposes, I suppose, Fred Watson.

640
00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:18.940
Professor Fred Watson: That's right. For, um. Yes, for

641
00:26:18.940 --> 00:26:21.540
other invasive species like dogs and cats.

642
00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:23.860
Andrew Dunkley: Absolutely. Yeah.

643
00:26:24.020 --> 00:26:25.540
Professor Fred Watson: Keep them, Keep them out of the national

644
00:26:25.540 --> 00:26:26.100
parks.

645
00:26:26.180 --> 00:26:28.780
Andrew Dunkley: Indeed. Uh, really interesting storey. That

646
00:26:28.780 --> 00:26:31.460
one is also on space.com but,

647
00:26:31.510 --> 00:26:34.380
um, there's every chance that, um, you

648
00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:36.620
know, if you're in the right part of the

649
00:26:36.620 --> 00:26:38.580
world, you might be using this technology

650
00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:41.460
already. Apparently 11 million dogs do.

651
00:26:42.500 --> 00:26:42.590
Professor Fred Watson: Ah.

652
00:26:42.590 --> 00:26:45.520
Andrew Dunkley: Uh, gosh, um, I think that brings us to the

653
00:26:45.840 --> 00:26:47.200
end, Fred Watson. That was quick.

654
00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:50.640
Professor Fred Watson: It was quick. Uh, and, um, that's

655
00:26:51.120 --> 00:26:52.600
kind, uh, of brought us up to date, I think,

656
00:26:52.600 --> 00:26:54.600
hasn't it, with life, the universe and

657
00:26:54.600 --> 00:26:54.880
everything.

658
00:26:55.120 --> 00:26:58.120
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed, yes. Um, anyway, thank you

659
00:26:58.120 --> 00:26:59.760
very much. We will catch you on the next

660
00:26:59.760 --> 00:27:01.280
episode, uh, coming soon.

661
00:27:02.320 --> 00:27:04.480
Professor Fred Watson: Sounds good. I'll look forward to it. Andrew.

662
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:05.040
All the best.

663
00:27:05.520 --> 00:27:07.400
Andrew Dunkley: Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at

664
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:09.400
large, part of the team here at Space Nuts,

665
00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:11.800
and thanks to Huw in the studio. Uh, Huw

666
00:27:11.800 --> 00:27:14.350
could. Couldn't be with us today. Tends to

667
00:27:14.350 --> 00:27:16.910
wander off and his wife's fitting, um, a

668
00:27:16.910 --> 00:27:19.550
GPS collar to him as we

669
00:27:19.550 --> 00:27:22.470
speak. Uh, and don't forget to visit our

670
00:27:22.470 --> 00:27:24.870
website, uh, between episodes, Spacenuts

671
00:27:24.950 --> 00:27:27.270
I.O. and From Me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for

672
00:27:27.270 --> 00:27:28.830
your company. We'll be back with a new

673
00:27:28.830 --> 00:27:30.630
episode real soon. See you then.

674
00:27:30.790 --> 00:27:31.430
Professor Fred Watson: Bye Bye.

675
00:27:32.710 --> 00:27:34.910
Andrew Dunkley: You've been listening to the Space Nuts

676
00:27:34.910 --> 00:27:37.430
podcast, available

677
00:27:37.910 --> 00:27:39.910
at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

678
00:27:40.070 --> 00:27:42.830
iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast

679
00:27:42.830 --> 00:27:44.550
player. You can also stream on

680
00:27:44.550 --> 00:27:46.570
demand@bytes.com M.

681
00:27:46.570 --> 00:27:48.630
Professor Fred Watson: This has been another quality podcast

682
00:27:48.630 --> 00:27:50.710
production from bytes.com.