SpaceX Hit the Moon, and the Real Problem Is Just Beginning

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Jonti Horner: Hi there.

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Andrew Dunkley: Thanks for joining us. My name is Andrew

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Dunkley. This is Space Nuts, uh, where we

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talk astronomy and space science. And coming

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up on Today's programme, uh, SpaceX

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in the news, you could say

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for all the wrong reasons, but, um, that's

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debatable, depending on which part of this

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storey that, um, you're talking about. But,

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uh, they've hit the moon. Uh, not in a good

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way. Uh, we'll also be looking at the

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upcoming launch of the Nancy Grace

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Roman Observatory. Uh, we've received a lot

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of questions from the audience about that,

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uh, in recent times and with good reason.

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It's a very exciting mission indeed and

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if time allows us, we'll, uh, look into a new

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study about Neptune's moons. Stick with

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us. That's all coming up on this edition of

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Space Nuts. 15 seconds.

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Jonti Horner: Guidance is internal. 10,

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9.

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Andrew Dunkley: Ignition sequence start.

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Jonti Horner: Space Nuts. 5, 4, 3, 2.

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Andrew Dunkley: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2,

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1. Space Nuts astronauts report at

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Beale. And joining us to, uh, furnish us

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with all his knowledge, which will only take

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a couple of minutes. No, no, it's not. It'll

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take probably a lot longer than that is

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Professor Jonty Horner, professor of

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Astrophysics at the University of Southern

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Queensland. Jonty, hello.

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Jonti Horner: Good afternoon. How are you going?

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Andrew Dunkley: Uh, good. You should feel good too, because

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it's only when I get to like people that I

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insult them like that.

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Jonti Horner: It's fine. It's just like growing up in

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Yorkshire again. It seems to be a

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recurring theme with kind of the better parts

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of the world is that the more you get on with

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people, the more offensively you critic. And,

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you know, the

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inverse of that being that the less you like

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people, the more polite you get. Which

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reminds me of Pratchett's almost version of

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the Montagues and Capulets with the old

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warring aristocracy who'd now got to such a

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level of dissatisfaction with one another

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that the only polite forms of conversation

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were about the weather. And that was it. So

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they have these meetings at formal events.

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It's like, oh, the weather today is

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beautiful, isn't it? M well, you know. Oh,

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yes, yes, but you're not.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, that kind of thing. M. Uh,

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we've got a lot to get through and, uh, very

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little time to do it, but we will manage as

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best we can.

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And this, uh, first storey is a bit of a

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combo. Two lunar based

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storeys and depending on where you sit

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on the spectrum of should we or should we

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not, um, they could both be considered bad or

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one could be sort of considered Good.

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Depending on. Yeah, perspective. But,

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uh, it's involving SpaceX and, uh, the

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recent collision, if you want to call it

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that, between a SpaceX rocket body and

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the lunar surface, uh, which,

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uh, happened not so long ago.

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Jonti Horner: Absolutely. I mean, as we're recording this,

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it was very, very recent. Very, very.

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Listening to this, it's slightly in the

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future. And for that reason we didn't talk

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about this last time, because last time we

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were recording in advance of this happening,

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but the broadcast would have gone out after

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it happened, which would have been very

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bizarre. Now we're recording after the

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event and you're hearing after the event, so

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at least the time flow is in an appropriate

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order.

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The storey here is basically

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one of celestial littering, which is a

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recurring theme. We've got this ongoing

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discussion in the past of what goes up, must

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come down, and the ongoing issue

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with the commercialization of space leading

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to a lot of things being launched. And the

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vast majority of those things that are

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launched return to Earth in a fiery blaze of

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glory. We see space junk more and more often

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in our skies, but on Earth,

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the concerns are primarily about the

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atmosphere with the stuff coming back. And

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we've talked a lot in the past about the

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worries atmospheric scientists have about

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dumping all these metals into the upper

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atmosphere and what it'll mean. But very

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rarely do pieces of space junk make it to the

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Earth's surface. And, um, that's because

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we've got an atmosphere. The atmosphere is

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brilliant and protects the surface of the

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Earth from all but the biggest bits of space

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junk. Making it down to Earth.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yep.

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Jonti Horner: Despite that, there is enough concern that

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people are, ah, doing things like calculating

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the odds for insurance companies of how

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likely it is that someone on Earth will die

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due to space junkie in the next decade,

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things like this. So it's not a null

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concern for people on the surface of Earth,

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but the odds of something crashing into

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Earth's surface, that is something we put up

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into orbit, are usually fairly low because

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most of it goes away in the atmosphere,

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ablates. It doesn't burn up. I'm always

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cautious of using the phrasing burn up

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because that evokes fire and fire requires

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oxygen and it's a chemical reaction. This is

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ablation because the air gets superheated and

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bakes away the material. But effectively,

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colloquially, you'd say this all burns up.

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The Earth, though, isn't the only thing out

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there that's in the firing line and this

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is where this storey comes in. So a while

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back, SpaceX launched a couple of

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things to head to the Moon. And in order

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to do that, they had to boost their rocket to

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a higher speed than they normally would do,

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which meant that the upper stage of this

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rocket went onto a very elongated orbit

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around the Earth, uh uh, and then essentially

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goes into free fall. It has burned all its

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fuel. It is, to all intents and purposes, out

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of control. And that means its orbit just

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evolves under the gravity of the Earth and

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the Moon and the vagaries of the environment

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around the Earth. Fast forward to

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now and that out of control rocket body

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crashed into the Moon. Now, the final

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collision was predicted in advance. This was

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big news for at least a week beforehand,

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and it was estimated roughly where the thing

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would hit the Moon. Now you're talking hit

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about a fairly hefty chunk of material.

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You're talking about, you know, a couple of

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thousand kilos, if not more, a fairly big

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chunk of material crashing into the Moon's

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surface at a speed of a few kilometres per

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second. And so the predictions were that

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when this hit in the location it hit,

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it would dig out a crater maybe 20, 25 metres

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across, and kick a load of dust and material

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up. It will create a plume that would rise

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above the Moon's limb, probably rise as high

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as 100 kilometres or so, and slowly fall back

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to the surf of the Moon.

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The time at which impact was going to happen

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was predicted, so astronomers on the part of

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the Earth that could see the Moon were

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watching to see what happened. Albert,

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to be fair, it was predicted that for most

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people you would see absolutely nothing. This

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thing was going to hit on the daylight side

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of the Moon and so reflected sunlight would

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obscure pretty much everything.

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So people looked, didn't really see anything.

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The only really, I think,

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strong indication that something was seen

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from the ground were a group of people

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observing from the Lowell Observatory in the

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US who were looking

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specifically at very specific wavelengths of

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light for sodium ions and lithium ions.

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And they saw what appeared to be an impact

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plume at the right location at the right

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time, kind of confirming that the impact

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happened.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Jonti Horner: Then after the event, the first images came

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back of the site that was hit. And those

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images came back from a Korean

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spacecraft, um, South Korea's first ever

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lunar spacecraft, that was launched back in

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2022, actually in August

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2022 has been floating around, minding its

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own business, doing work and pretty much

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widely being forgotten. I don't remember ever

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talking about this spacecraft before, even

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though me. It's a great. Yeah, even though

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it's a great achievement that the Koreans got

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it into lunar orbit and have been doing great

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stuff with it.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Jonti Horner: But this spacecraft, Dunuri, flew

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repeatedly over the area where the impact was

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going. And the

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Korean, um, Aerospace Research Institute

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Carri released an announcement that said,

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and I'm quoting here, Dhanuri began

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observations about 30 minutes before the

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collision and um, through orbit control

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passed over the impact site multiple times,

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conducting a total of eight imaging

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sessions. Through this observation, changes

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in the terrain around the impact site and

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traces of ejecta spread were confirmed. The

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spacecraft secured both pre collision and

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immediate post collision footage, enabling

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analysis of the changes. Changes, uh, that

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have happened. So there are now images only

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looks like a little black smudge, but to be

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fair, this is an area maybe 20 or 25 metres

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across. It's pretty impressive that we can

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get images that resolve that impact feature

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on the surface of the moon. And I think that

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in itself is going to be pretty important

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for researchers studying how craters form,

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how the lunar impact kind of scenarios

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happen. When you're hitting an object with

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the regolith, like the moon without an

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atmosphere to protect it, all this kind of

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stuff's pretty important. But it's doubly

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important in the context of our future use of

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the moon. You know, NASA have got these plans

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to put astronauts in a permanent lunar base

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at the South Pole. I know China have

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expressed similar aspirations. Elon Musk is

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looking at building a lunar industry, which

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we'll come to in a minute. Yeah. Ah, if

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you're wanting to have permanent presence on

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the moon, and particularly permanent human

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presence, you need to have a fairly good

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understanding of what's going to happen when

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impacts happen. You would have also thought

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though that you'd like to prevent impacts

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from happening, particularly impacts from

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things that are out of control. Because if

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this thing had come into the Earth's

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atmosphere, pretty much all of it would have

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ablated. You wouldn't have had to worry on

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the ground. On the Moon though,

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it makes it to the surface intact. That

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size of that impact scar, 25, 27 metres

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across, sounds to me very much like the size

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of a lunar habitat that you'd build. And the

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last thing I would want is to send astronauts

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up to the moon and then have a bit of a

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discarded rocket crash in and wipe out the

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habitat and kill them. Doesn't sound like a

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good idea. Not just that it's raised

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concerns not only about our kind of future

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presence on the moon, but about the

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preservation of our archaeological sites on

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the moon. We've talked about the incredible

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work of Professor Alice Gorman in Adelaide,

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who talks about space archaeology and has

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Been trying to raise awareness of the

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cultural impact of places like the Apollo 11

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landing site, where we've got this pristine

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record of humanity's first steps on the moon.

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And it'd be tragic if something like this

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happened and crashed into that. Yeah, it's

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really caused a lot of discussion about

267
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what's going on, what we should do about it.

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And I don't know that it's a particularly

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good look for SpaceX that this has happened,

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but it should be stressed that they are far,

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uh, from alone. I saw listed on a

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BBC article at the time of the

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impact detailed some of the other things that

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have hit the moon and they reckon that

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more than 3,000 human made objects have

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now either landed on or impacted the moon.

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Andrew Dunkley: Really? 3,000?

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Jonti Horner: 3,000 or more.

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Andrew Dunkley: I would never have guessed that many.

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Jonti Horner: It's astonishing. And that's a total of more

281
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than 190 tonnes of material. Now

282
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some of that landed softly. You know, we

283
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talked about Apollo 11 for example. The lunar

284
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landers from many nations, many nations have

285
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now landed on the moon. We've got crash

286
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landings like the Israeli mission that

287
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spattered tardigrades across the moon because

288
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they could. Which still strikes me as one of

289
00:11:00.650 --> 00:11:02.790
the dumbest space missions ever carried out.

290
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You know, from an astrobiology point of view,

291
00:11:05.070 --> 00:11:06.630
we want to go to places and look for evidence

292
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of life. The last thing you want to do is

293
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smear it over the face of the moon. Hey look,

294
00:11:10.950 --> 00:11:12.750
we've put life there anyway. That's an

295
00:11:12.750 --> 00:11:14.630
entirely other topic. But there's this long

296
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history of things hitting the moon in a both

297
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controlled and uncontrolled fashion. And it's

298
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going to happen more and more the more we put

299
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stuff out there.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yep.

301
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Jonti Horner: So it's caused a lot of discussion. It is

302
00:11:26.550 --> 00:11:29.230
really, really interesting. But it does shine

303
00:11:29.230 --> 00:11:31.230
a light on the risk for future missions more

304
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than anything else.

305
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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it does. Um,

306
00:11:34.980 --> 00:11:36.580
notwithstanding that, there is,

307
00:11:37.980 --> 00:11:40.260
um, an international law in place that you're

308
00:11:40.260 --> 00:11:42.260
responsible for cleaning up your own mess.

309
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But, um, when things get out of control

310
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or fly off in directions that make them

311
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irretrievable, what can you do

312
00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:51.540
about it?

313
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Jonti Horner: Absolutely. And I would be very interested to

314
00:11:54.380 --> 00:11:56.580
see whether any applications of that law

315
00:11:57.220 --> 00:11:59.140
apply to things beyond the Earth's

316
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atmosphere, because that

317
00:12:01.770 --> 00:12:04.130
gets enforced when you look at people

318
00:12:04.130 --> 00:12:06.370
cleaning up things on Earth. So there was a

319
00:12:06.370 --> 00:12:09.290
storey a few years ago about some SpaceX

320
00:12:09.290 --> 00:12:12.170
rocket parts, um, in the snowy

321
00:12:12.170 --> 00:12:14.970
mountains in Australia and SpaceX in theory

322
00:12:14.970 --> 00:12:17.010
had to come and collect them and there was a

323
00:12:17.010 --> 00:12:19.010
little bit of a lag in that happening.

324
00:12:19.010 --> 00:12:20.930
Similarly, when There was a fragmentation of

325
00:12:20.930 --> 00:12:23.230
one of their big starship test launchers that

326
00:12:23.230 --> 00:12:25.050
uh, dropped debris around the Caribbean.

327
00:12:25.290 --> 00:12:27.210
There was a lot of controversy about whether

328
00:12:27.210 --> 00:12:28.930
they were actually bothering to collect stuff

329
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or not.

330
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Andrew Dunkley: There is a faster way. It's called ebay.

331
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Jonti Horner: Oh absolutely.

332
00:12:36.370 --> 00:12:38.810
This is kind of an ongoing thing and I'm not

333
00:12:38.810 --> 00:12:41.690
sure that once again legislation has kept

334
00:12:41.690 --> 00:12:44.050
up with our use. We were talking about this

335
00:12:44.450 --> 00:12:46.570
last week with satellites I think, and with

336
00:12:46.570 --> 00:12:49.490
the FAA and FCC approving things but making

337
00:12:49.490 --> 00:12:51.050
it very clear that they weren't there to

338
00:12:51.050 --> 00:12:53.250
judge on whether the use of space was

339
00:12:53.250 --> 00:12:54.850
sensible. They were just ruling on their

340
00:12:54.850 --> 00:12:57.330
small area of influence and abrogating other

341
00:12:57.330 --> 00:12:58.050
responsibility.

342
00:12:58.530 --> 00:13:00.930
I don't think we have yet any real

343
00:13:01.850 --> 00:13:04.530
global pathway to improving things and

344
00:13:04.530 --> 00:13:06.770
getting a better handle on what we should and

345
00:13:06.770 --> 00:13:08.770
shouldn't do. But the discussions are

346
00:13:08.770 --> 00:13:10.250
happening and every time something like this

347
00:13:10.250 --> 00:13:12.650
comes along it further prompts those

348
00:13:12.650 --> 00:13:14.370
discussions and raises awareness of the

349
00:13:14.370 --> 00:13:15.210
problem, I guess.

350
00:13:15.370 --> 00:13:18.330
Andrew Dunkley: Yes. And uh, once people are

351
00:13:18.330 --> 00:13:20.530
up there in a permanent or semi permanent

352
00:13:20.530 --> 00:13:23.370
situation, that's when you've really

353
00:13:23.370 --> 00:13:25.250
got to start thinking about these kinds of

354
00:13:25.250 --> 00:13:27.130
problems. Hitting the moon at the moment is

355
00:13:27.270 --> 00:13:30.090
um, it is a risk for

356
00:13:30.330 --> 00:13:33.130
existing infrastructure and historical sites.

357
00:13:33.610 --> 00:13:35.610
But the day will come where people are there

358
00:13:35.690 --> 00:13:38.330
and that creates a whole new ball game. So.

359
00:13:38.570 --> 00:13:40.730
Jonti Horner: And industry will be there. Which brings us

360
00:13:40.890 --> 00:13:42.490
to the second half of this storey.

361
00:13:42.570 --> 00:13:44.650
Andrew Dunkley: Well, let's, let's get into that because this

362
00:13:44.650 --> 00:13:47.210
also involves SpaceX and

363
00:13:47.290 --> 00:13:50.250
Elon's big plan is to put a,

364
00:13:50.290 --> 00:13:53.250
um, uh, manufacturing plant on

365
00:13:53.250 --> 00:13:55.820
the moon to build uh, his

366
00:13:55.900 --> 00:13:58.780
starmind AI satellite array.

367
00:13:59.350 --> 00:14:02.020
Uh, and it looks like that this will be a

368
00:14:02.020 --> 00:14:04.540
fully automated system. They'll manufacture

369
00:14:04.540 --> 00:14:07.100
these things and launch them from the moon.

370
00:14:07.100 --> 00:14:10.059
And we're talking like, I don't

371
00:14:10.059 --> 00:14:12.780
know, M. Is it a million of these things?

372
00:14:12.780 --> 00:14:13.820
Jonti Horner: That's what it wants to do.

373
00:14:14.060 --> 00:14:16.860
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, that's. I mean this is the stuff of

374
00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:19.340
science fiction, but it's rapidly becoming

375
00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:20.770
something real, isn't it?

376
00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:23.360
Jonti Horner: It is. And I mean we've discussed the light

377
00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:25.280
pollution side of this repeatedly on the

378
00:14:25.280 --> 00:14:28.200
show, both myself and Fred Watson. This

379
00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.080
StarMind idea is the idea that

380
00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:34.160
they will launch essentially data centres and

381
00:14:34.160 --> 00:14:36.680
AI centres into Earth orbit to farm

382
00:14:36.760 --> 00:14:38.920
solar energy and you'll have these

383
00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:42.600
heavily computing based satellites with

384
00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:45.400
enormous solar panels probably at a

385
00:14:45.400 --> 00:14:47.520
relatively high altitude above the Earth so

386
00:14:47.520 --> 00:14:50.160
that they can get permanent sunshine, which I

387
00:14:50.160 --> 00:14:51.680
know a number of reports over the last few

388
00:14:51.680 --> 00:14:54.340
months since this has talked about have

389
00:14:54.340 --> 00:14:56.180
spoken about how this will give a visible

390
00:14:56.180 --> 00:14:58.660
ring in the night sky that'll be visible

391
00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:01.140
all night from all locations on the Earth.

392
00:15:01.140 --> 00:15:03.460
And it'll be like living with a

393
00:15:03.940 --> 00:15:06.860
narrow, very thin ring, a bit like Saturn's

394
00:15:06.860 --> 00:15:08.779
rings, but just a single ring rather than

395
00:15:08.779 --> 00:15:11.220
really broad one. Lots of concern,

396
00:15:11.780 --> 00:15:14.580
lots of speculation about that. This

397
00:15:14.580 --> 00:15:16.740
storey relates to one of the

398
00:15:17.220 --> 00:15:19.280
quarterly calls that

399
00:15:19.750 --> 00:15:21.550
SpaceX are having. This is apparently the

400
00:15:21.550 --> 00:15:23.510
first ever, but they're going to happen every

401
00:15:23.510 --> 00:15:25.470
quarter and it's probably something that's

402
00:15:25.470 --> 00:15:27.390
followed on from the listing of SpaceX on the

403
00:15:27.390 --> 00:15:29.190
stock exchange and that where

404
00:15:30.310 --> 00:15:33.230
Musk talks to the investors. And um, this

405
00:15:33.230 --> 00:15:35.670
call was on the 4th of August, just under a

406
00:15:35.670 --> 00:15:37.390
week ago for me, but by the time you hear

407
00:15:37.390 --> 00:15:40.350
this three weeks ago. And in

408
00:15:40.350 --> 00:15:43.270
that call, Musk talked widely about

409
00:15:43.510 --> 00:15:46.170
his dreams to put factories on the

410
00:15:46.170 --> 00:15:47.970
moon. This is something he's talked about

411
00:15:47.970 --> 00:15:50.090
before, so it's not utterly new, but he's

412
00:15:50.090 --> 00:15:52.970
given more detail of what they want. He

413
00:15:52.970 --> 00:15:54.970
talks about landing a huge amount of tonnage

414
00:15:54.970 --> 00:15:57.450
on the moon to build factories. The factories

415
00:15:57.450 --> 00:16:00.010
will use robots akin to the Optimus robots

416
00:16:00.010 --> 00:16:02.370
that they use in the, um, Tesla car

417
00:16:02.370 --> 00:16:04.490
manufacturers, I think. And he's already

418
00:16:04.490 --> 00:16:06.370
talking about sending some of those Optimus

419
00:16:06.370 --> 00:16:09.250
robots to Mars. He wants to use

420
00:16:09.250 --> 00:16:12.050
the moon to build these starmind

421
00:16:12.050 --> 00:16:14.690
AI satellites which he'll then launch with

422
00:16:14.690 --> 00:16:17.590
giant rail guns using the obs abundant solar

423
00:16:17.590 --> 00:16:19.070
power you can generate on the moon, building

424
00:16:19.070 --> 00:16:21.630
a really, really, really long track with a

425
00:16:21.630 --> 00:16:24.070
kink at the end where you can accelerate

426
00:16:24.070 --> 00:16:26.830
using magnets, something to launch

427
00:16:27.070 --> 00:16:28.710
speed. And this is again something that's

428
00:16:28.710 --> 00:16:30.550
featured heavily in science fiction over the

429
00:16:30.550 --> 00:16:32.590
years as a method for launching things from

430
00:16:33.230 --> 00:16:35.990
bodies without an atmosphere. All makes

431
00:16:35.990 --> 00:16:38.990
sense, but the idea he's got is

432
00:16:38.990 --> 00:16:41.590
that, uh, by going onto the moon, he can

433
00:16:41.590 --> 00:16:44.270
scale up manufacturing to get to being a

434
00:16:44.270 --> 00:16:47.190
factor of a thousand and a factor of

435
00:16:47.190 --> 00:16:49.930
a million times more than he has on Earth.

436
00:16:50.410 --> 00:16:53.370
So a huge, vast expansion in their

437
00:16:53.930 --> 00:16:56.810
building capacity. And it's a kind

438
00:16:56.810 --> 00:16:59.010
of thing that, huh, many people might poo

439
00:16:59.010 --> 00:17:00.850
poo, but I think if we were talking a decade

440
00:17:00.850 --> 00:17:02.530
ago, people would have been poo pooing the

441
00:17:02.530 --> 00:17:04.929
idea of Starlink. And he's been very

442
00:17:04.929 --> 00:17:06.610
successful getting that off the ground and up

443
00:17:06.610 --> 00:17:09.010
and running. So I wouldn't rule this out. And

444
00:17:09.010 --> 00:17:11.930
long term we are seeing the dawn

445
00:17:11.930 --> 00:17:13.850
of the commercial use of space and the

446
00:17:13.850 --> 00:17:15.490
commercial exploitation of the moon and

447
00:17:15.490 --> 00:17:18.050
asteroids is sure to follow. So it wouldn't

448
00:17:18.050 --> 00:17:19.570
surprise me if other companies are having

449
00:17:19.570 --> 00:17:21.830
similar ideas and it may maybe that SpaceX

450
00:17:22.070 --> 00:17:24.510
are the first but not the only ones to do

451
00:17:24.510 --> 00:17:27.430
this if it happens. What I

452
00:17:27.430 --> 00:17:30.390
found interesting about this is this storey's

453
00:17:30.390 --> 00:17:32.790
going round at exactly the same time that

454
00:17:32.790 --> 00:17:34.550
we're talking about the uncontrolled crash of

455
00:17:34.550 --> 00:17:37.430
the SpaceX rocket to the moon. Which means

456
00:17:37.430 --> 00:17:40.230
you've got this almost a conflict of interest

457
00:17:40.390 --> 00:17:43.110
for SpaceX here because on the one hand

458
00:17:43.510 --> 00:17:45.070
they want to be able to launch their rockets.

459
00:17:45.070 --> 00:17:46.590
They've got to get that tonnage into space,

460
00:17:46.590 --> 00:17:48.550
as Musk says. And if they're launching things

461
00:17:48.550 --> 00:17:51.030
to the moon, that'll leave a lot of rocket

462
00:17:51.030 --> 00:17:52.930
bodies on orbits that could event actually

463
00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:55.250
impact the moon and they're out of control.

464
00:17:55.730 --> 00:17:57.770
Yet at the same time he's looking at building

465
00:17:57.770 --> 00:18:00.610
capacity for manufacturing on the surface of

466
00:18:00.610 --> 00:18:03.570
the moon. Now that strikes me that on the

467
00:18:03.570 --> 00:18:05.890
one hand he's increasing the risk that his

468
00:18:06.130 --> 00:18:08.130
industry will be damaged by his own industry,

469
00:18:08.130 --> 00:18:10.290
if that makes sense. Oh yeah, there's always

470
00:18:10.290 --> 00:18:12.170
a possibility that one of his rockets will

471
00:18:12.170 --> 00:18:14.770
crash into one of his factories. So it may

472
00:18:14.770 --> 00:18:17.490
well be that that leads to a certain amount

473
00:18:17.490 --> 00:18:19.210
of self interest in looking at ways to manage

474
00:18:19.210 --> 00:18:21.890
it that the outcry of astronomers wouldn't.

475
00:18:22.370 --> 00:18:25.360
It's a lot more impelling for

476
00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:27.360
a company like SpaceX to want to find a

477
00:18:27.360 --> 00:18:29.840
solution to a problem that will directly

478
00:18:29.840 --> 00:18:32.000
impact them than a problem that's just

479
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:33.960
upsetting a few people and is considered a

480
00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:35.040
little niche. So it's going to be really

481
00:18:35.040 --> 00:18:37.360
interesting to see how these two things kind

482
00:18:37.360 --> 00:18:38.840
of develop in parallel, I think.

483
00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:42.140
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Uh, Elon Musk is um,

484
00:18:42.840 --> 00:18:45.160
to some a visionary, to others an absolute

485
00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.000
nutter. But uh, when you look at what he's

486
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.920
achieved, you can't deny it. And when he

487
00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:52.760
starts to talk about doing things like this,

488
00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:56.440
you can't say it won't happen because

489
00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:59.120
he's proven that he'll put his money where

490
00:18:59.120 --> 00:19:00.920
his mouth is over and over again.

491
00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:03.240
Jonti Horner: Yeah. Um, and I do try when I'm talking about

492
00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:05.560
this, I know I fail sometimes, but I try to

493
00:19:05.560 --> 00:19:07.360
be as evenhanded as I can be M because I

494
00:19:07.360 --> 00:19:10.160
think very few people are purely good or

495
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:11.960
purely evil. There's good and bad to most

496
00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:13.240
people and there are good and bad to the

497
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:15.680
things that people do. And when we've talked

498
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:18.560
a lot about Starlink, I always want

499
00:19:18.560 --> 00:19:20.280
to be a parent of stress that there is real

500
00:19:20.280 --> 00:19:21.960
benefit comes from this as well. Cause I

501
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:23.840
think a big mistake people make is only

502
00:19:23.840 --> 00:19:26.260
focusing on the negative. And that doesn't

503
00:19:26.260 --> 00:19:28.180
put you in a good position. You need to look

504
00:19:28.420 --> 00:19:30.500
not to stop things entirely, but to look for

505
00:19:30.500 --> 00:19:32.060
a position where you get the maximum benefit

506
00:19:32.060 --> 00:19:33.740
for the minimum cost. You know that sweet

507
00:19:33.740 --> 00:19:34.180
spot.

508
00:19:34.340 --> 00:19:34.820
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

509
00:19:34.900 --> 00:19:37.820
Jonti Horner: And it is undeniable that Starlink has

510
00:19:37.820 --> 00:19:40.620
brought with it great benefits to people

511
00:19:40.620 --> 00:19:42.460
in terms of being able to access the Internet

512
00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:44.220
and access communication where previously

513
00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:45.940
they weren't able to see, were too remote.

514
00:19:46.100 --> 00:19:48.660
It's also come with associated problems and I

515
00:19:48.660 --> 00:19:51.260
think this kind of endeavour is going to be

516
00:19:51.260 --> 00:19:54.140
the same. It's also probably very fair to say

517
00:19:54.140 --> 00:19:56.930
that that commercial use of the Moon and

518
00:19:56.930 --> 00:19:58.650
commercial use of other things in the solar

519
00:19:58.650 --> 00:20:00.570
system is going to happen whether SpaceX do

520
00:20:00.570 --> 00:20:02.610
it or not. But they're very much at the

521
00:20:02.610 --> 00:20:05.250
forefront. So I don't see an argument to be

522
00:20:05.250 --> 00:20:06.450
made for just saying, oh well, they should

523
00:20:06.450 --> 00:20:08.210
stop this and think about it. I think what's

524
00:20:08.210 --> 00:20:10.730
really important is all this stuff is

525
00:20:10.730 --> 00:20:13.180
discussed very publicly and, um,

526
00:20:13.770 --> 00:20:16.570
we figure out what humanity as a

527
00:20:16.570 --> 00:20:19.210
whole thinks is the right balance to have.

528
00:20:19.690 --> 00:20:21.730
And that's challenging. I mean, it's not a

529
00:20:21.730 --> 00:20:23.250
case of nothing and it's not a case of

530
00:20:23.250 --> 00:20:25.790
everything. But it's probably going to be the

531
00:20:25.790 --> 00:20:28.110
case that, uh, the use of the Moon is just

532
00:20:28.110 --> 00:20:30.110
like the use of low Earth orbit, where the

533
00:20:30.110 --> 00:20:32.790
commercial use rapidly outstrips our,

534
00:20:32.790 --> 00:20:34.950
uh, abilities, at least at first, to

535
00:20:34.950 --> 00:20:36.950
legislate around it and then the legislation

536
00:20:36.950 --> 00:20:39.670
will come afterwards in much the same way. We

537
00:20:39.670 --> 00:20:41.550
were talking last week about previous

538
00:20:41.550 --> 00:20:43.470
examples being things like the Internet or

539
00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:45.670
even the printing press, things like this.

540
00:20:45.670 --> 00:20:48.150
The use always outstrips the legislation.

541
00:20:48.230 --> 00:20:50.620
Then the legislation sprints capture.

542
00:20:51.170 --> 00:20:54.090
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, uh, well, it crawls

543
00:20:54.090 --> 00:20:56.950
in some cases, but I know what you mean. Um,

544
00:20:57.170 --> 00:20:59.890
and look, if SpaceX don't do this, as you

545
00:20:59.890 --> 00:21:02.570
said, someone else will. It's, um, you know,

546
00:21:02.570 --> 00:21:04.610
everyone can point the finger at Elon Musk

547
00:21:04.610 --> 00:21:07.330
and SpaceX and say, oh, naughty. But

548
00:21:07.410 --> 00:21:10.370
if they say, look, yeah, okay, we agree

549
00:21:10.370 --> 00:21:12.490
it's a bad idea, we won't do it, someone else

550
00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:14.610
will. Absolutely, most certainly.

551
00:21:15.330 --> 00:21:18.100
So, uh, it's probably more a case of finding

552
00:21:18.100 --> 00:21:21.100
a way to manage this properly into the future

553
00:21:21.340 --> 00:21:23.500
rather than just saying, no, it shouldn't

554
00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:26.140
happen, shouldn't be done, no way, no how,

555
00:21:26.140 --> 00:21:28.460
because it will happen regardless.

556
00:21:29.660 --> 00:21:31.740
Interesting times ahead. Uh, yeah, a couple

557
00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:34.420
of interesting storeys focused, uh, on the

558
00:21:34.420 --> 00:21:35.940
Moon. And if you want to read about that

559
00:21:35.940 --> 00:21:38.220
impact, you can do that at,

560
00:21:38.540 --> 00:21:39.420
uh, the

561
00:21:40.860 --> 00:21:43.180
space.com website. I knew I'd find it there

562
00:21:43.180 --> 00:21:45.460
somewhere. This is Space Nuts with Andrew

563
00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:47.580
Dunkley and Professor Jonty Horner.

564
00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:51.600
I believe that this nation should commit

565
00:21:51.600 --> 00:21:53.800
itself to achieving the goal,

566
00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:57.360
before this decade is out, of landing a

567
00:21:57.360 --> 00:21:57.560
man

568
00:21:57.560 --> 00:21:59.920
Jonti Horner: on the moon and returning him safely to the

569
00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:01.080
Earth. These nuts.

570
00:22:02.120 --> 00:22:04.440
Andrew Dunkley: Now to something very exciting. We've been

571
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:07.080
building up to this for quite some time and

572
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:09.960
as this podcast, uh, goes

573
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.640
out um, the day of release for this one is

574
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.600
the 27th of August. Uh, we are three

575
00:22:15.600 --> 00:22:18.200
days away from the launch

576
00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:20.740
of the Nancy Grey Space Roman

577
00:22:20.900 --> 00:22:23.220
Observatory. That is big time

578
00:22:23.300 --> 00:22:24.100
excitement.

579
00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:26.980
Jonti Horner: It is of course the caveat is that uh, in the

580
00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:28.820
couple of weeks between recording this and it

581
00:22:28.820 --> 00:22:30.940
going live, it could be delayed change, you

582
00:22:30.940 --> 00:22:32.820
know, it's like, like the trains in the uk,

583
00:22:32.820 --> 00:22:34.220
never trust that they're going to arrive

584
00:22:34.220 --> 00:22:35.780
until they actually have done and even then

585
00:22:35.780 --> 00:22:38.620
be sceptical. Yeah, it's that kind of

586
00:22:38.620 --> 00:22:41.100
thing. But in this case that would be quite

587
00:22:41.100 --> 00:22:42.980
startling because until very recently

588
00:22:44.020 --> 00:22:45.980
everybody was expecting this telescope to be

589
00:22:45.980 --> 00:22:48.840
launched next year. So the, the launch,

590
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:51.240
if it goes ahead on 30 August

591
00:22:51.800 --> 00:22:53.880
will be a launch that is nine months ahead of

592
00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:55.960
schedule, which is very, very cool. Now the

593
00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:58.080
scheduled launch time at the time of

594
00:22:58.080 --> 00:23:00.830
recording will be the 30th of August at

595
00:23:00.830 --> 00:23:03.560
uh, 9:26pm Australian

596
00:23:03.560 --> 00:23:05.590
Eastern Standard Time, which is 11, um,

597
00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:08.880
26:00am Universal Time or Greenwich Mean

598
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:11.360
Time. I think a lot of these launches get

599
00:23:11.360 --> 00:23:13.120
streamed online so for those of you who are

600
00:23:13.120 --> 00:23:15.360
keen, there will almost certainly be live

601
00:23:15.360 --> 00:23:17.000
coverage of that. Uh, and a lot of very

602
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:18.800
nervous people watching the launch hoping

603
00:23:18.800 --> 00:23:21.300
that it doesn't turn into a. Which has

604
00:23:21.300 --> 00:23:22.020
happened before.

605
00:23:22.260 --> 00:23:25.260
Andrew Dunkley: It has. We don't want to think about

606
00:23:25.260 --> 00:23:27.860
that. We're talking $4 billion

607
00:23:28.300 --> 00:23:29.300
worth of hardware.

608
00:23:29.620 --> 00:23:31.380
Jonti Horner: We are. But I mean this is why there are

609
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:34.270
insurance policies, right? It's um,

610
00:23:35.540 --> 00:23:36.420
there is a risk.

611
00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:38.540
Andrew Dunkley: I'm surprised you'd find an insurance company

612
00:23:38.540 --> 00:23:39.060
willing.

613
00:23:40.100 --> 00:23:41.740
Jonti Horner: I think it's become fairly big business

614
00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:43.860
actually. I mean it's not my area, but I

615
00:23:43.860 --> 00:23:46.730
remember when we went to meetings

616
00:23:46.730 --> 00:23:49.090
a few years ago about off Earth resource

617
00:23:49.090 --> 00:23:50.610
collection, there was discussion about

618
00:23:50.610 --> 00:23:53.130
insurance and stuff like that and apparently

619
00:23:53.130 --> 00:23:55.170
there are insurance underwriters who insure

620
00:23:55.170 --> 00:23:58.010
satellites and launchers and

621
00:23:58.010 --> 00:24:00.370
I think I seem to remember, although I stand

622
00:24:00.370 --> 00:24:02.490
to be corrected on this, that the cluster

623
00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:05.210
mission probably 15, 20 years ago

624
00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:07.890
now blew up on the launch pad and insurance

625
00:24:07.890 --> 00:24:10.410
allowed them to essentially rebuild it and

626
00:24:10.410 --> 00:24:13.180
launch it again. Um, so it does happen, but

627
00:24:13.180 --> 00:24:16.060
fingers crossed, touch wood, there will be no

628
00:24:16.060 --> 00:24:17.940
problems with this. And um, what will happen

629
00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:20.580
is that on the 30th of August a uh, rocket

630
00:24:20.580 --> 00:24:23.020
will take off. SpaceX rocket that will carry

631
00:24:23.020 --> 00:24:25.540
Nancy Grace Roman Telescope

632
00:24:25.940 --> 00:24:28.260
into Earth orbit and beyond will boost

633
00:24:28.900 --> 00:24:30.540
hard, um, just like happened with the James

634
00:24:30.540 --> 00:24:32.420
Webb Space Telescope to give it a good kick

635
00:24:32.420 --> 00:24:34.380
because this thing is destined to go out to

636
00:24:34.380 --> 00:24:37.300
join James Webb at the outer Lagrange point,

637
00:24:37.620 --> 00:24:39.380
um, beyond the Earth, uh, so about a million

638
00:24:39.380 --> 00:24:41.180
kilometres further from the sun than the

639
00:24:41.180 --> 00:24:43.820
Earth is but moving in lockstep with our ah,

640
00:24:43.820 --> 00:24:45.960
at this kind of gravitational sweet spot

641
00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.080
where you can hang around fairly safely for a

642
00:24:48.080 --> 00:24:50.960
long time. To do that it is

643
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:53.720
loaded with what is described as a very

644
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:56.640
toxic fuel, um, hydrazine.

645
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.000
They want to move away from it but until they

646
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:00.720
find a better alternative they haven't yet.

647
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.360
So as we talk right now

648
00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.160
the spacecraft has been fully fueled

649
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:08.280
which is why they're fairly confident that

650
00:25:08.280 --> 00:25:11.280
they'll launch on time. That amount of fuel

651
00:25:11.520 --> 00:25:14.080
sets the lifetime of the mission. And there

652
00:25:14.080 --> 00:25:15.780
were similar discussions with Jim James Webb

653
00:25:15.780 --> 00:25:18.340
when it launched a few years ago in that the

654
00:25:18.340 --> 00:25:21.100
nominal mission is five years. So once Nancy

655
00:25:21.100 --> 00:25:23.260
Grace Roman gets to the L2 point and that

656
00:25:23.260 --> 00:25:25.100
journey will take about 100 days from the

657
00:25:25.100 --> 00:25:27.820
launch it is scheduled to have

658
00:25:28.220 --> 00:25:30.700
around a five year mission.

659
00:25:31.660 --> 00:25:34.380
May have a longer mission than that if it

660
00:25:34.380 --> 00:25:37.060
manages to keep hold of its hydrozine fuel.

661
00:25:37.060 --> 00:25:39.280
So what happened with James Webb was uh,

662
00:25:39.280 --> 00:25:41.300
everybody was delighted with how accurately

663
00:25:41.300 --> 00:25:43.780
and beautifully it launched so it needed to

664
00:25:43.780 --> 00:25:46.620
use less fuel to get on station which meant

665
00:25:46.620 --> 00:25:48.760
that have more fuel for a longer life

666
00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:52.640
and therefore the projected mission went from

667
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.560
five years to maybe 10 or 20. Managed to keep

668
00:25:55.560 --> 00:25:57.920
those sorts of fuel and hopefully fingers

669
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:00.000
crossed, such wood. Again the same will be

670
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:02.280
true for Nancy Grace Roman Telescope.

671
00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:04.760
People have been really looking forward to

672
00:26:04.760 --> 00:26:07.040
this. Now the first I remember of Nancy Grace

673
00:26:07.040 --> 00:26:09.240
Roman Telescope was when it used to be badged

674
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:11.680
as wfirst a Wide Field Infrared Survey

675
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:13.720
Telescope. That was kind of the first

676
00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:15.852
proposal and that was going back to 2011,

677
00:26:15.988 --> 00:26:18.930
2012. And shortly after those first

678
00:26:18.930 --> 00:26:21.250
proposals there was a really interesting

679
00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:24.090
storey came out that NASA had been told

680
00:26:24.090 --> 00:26:26.330
that there were suddenly a number of

681
00:26:27.290 --> 00:26:29.450
what are known as National Reconnaissance

682
00:26:29.450 --> 00:26:31.730
Office telescopes made m by the Harris

683
00:26:31.730 --> 00:26:34.570
Corporation. Um, the nro

684
00:26:34.570 --> 00:26:37.250
uh, offered to donate two telescopes to

685
00:26:37.250 --> 00:26:40.130
NASA which are telescopes comparable in

686
00:26:40.130 --> 00:26:41.930
size to the Hubble Space Telescope but a

687
00:26:41.930 --> 00:26:44.500
wider field of view. To put that in other

688
00:26:44.500 --> 00:26:46.940
language. Effectively the defence community

689
00:26:46.940 --> 00:26:48.740
in the US said by the way, we've got a couple

690
00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:50.500
of spy satellites that we're not going to use

691
00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:52.420
so do you want them to actually do science?

692
00:26:53.300 --> 00:26:56.180
Which meant at least to me for the first time

693
00:26:56.180 --> 00:26:57.780
I became aware of the fact that there were a

694
00:26:57.780 --> 00:26:59.820
number of Hubble class telescopes orbiting

695
00:26:59.820 --> 00:27:02.420
the Earth. Looking down, um, I hadn't quite

696
00:27:02.420 --> 00:27:04.220
realised spy satellites had got that big and

697
00:27:04.220 --> 00:27:07.100
that impressive. But anyway

698
00:27:07.100 --> 00:27:08.740
that was a really nice

699
00:27:09.610 --> 00:27:12.290
mechanism through which you know you could do

700
00:27:12.290 --> 00:27:15.130
a cool mission a little bit cheaper. That

701
00:27:15.130 --> 00:27:16.890
got a bit of political interest and all the

702
00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:19.290
rest of it. But over time since

703
00:27:19.610 --> 00:27:22.570
the telescope was planned and then approved

704
00:27:22.570 --> 00:27:25.290
and then built. Now, I must confess

705
00:27:25.290 --> 00:27:27.010
that I don't actually know whether the

706
00:27:27.010 --> 00:27:29.450
current iteration of Nancy Grace Roman is a

707
00:27:29.450 --> 00:27:31.250
former spy satellite or whether they moved

708
00:27:31.250 --> 00:27:34.090
away from that. But what it is going to be is

709
00:27:34.090 --> 00:27:37.090
a space telescope with a mirror 2.4 metres

710
00:27:37.090 --> 00:27:39.370
across, which is your Hubble Space Telescope

711
00:27:39.370 --> 00:27:42.230
size, wider field of view than Hubble

712
00:27:42.950 --> 00:27:45.950
that will observe in the optical and in the

713
00:27:45.950 --> 00:27:48.550
near infrared using two instruments. So it's

714
00:27:48.550 --> 00:27:50.830
going to have a very wonderful wide field

715
00:27:50.830 --> 00:27:53.190
camera. This is a camera with

716
00:27:53.510 --> 00:27:56.510
300 megapixels. So

717
00:27:56.510 --> 00:27:58.590
that's a hell of a lot better than the CCD

718
00:27:58.590 --> 00:28:01.510
camera I've got on my digital telescope here.

719
00:28:01.510 --> 00:28:04.430
On my telescope here. Fabulous camera

720
00:28:04.430 --> 00:28:06.150
that will work at both visible and near

721
00:28:06.150 --> 00:28:08.920
infrared, will be able to take take images in

722
00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:10.920
a wide variety of colour bands and things

723
00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:12.560
like this. So that's going to be a fabulous

724
00:28:13.120 --> 00:28:15.360
camera that allows survey work to be done.

725
00:28:15.600 --> 00:28:18.080
And a lot of the work that is planned for

726
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:21.040
this incredible telescope will be looking at

727
00:28:21.040 --> 00:28:22.920
the kind of cosmology stuff that you get so

728
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:25.160
many questions about dark energy and

729
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:27.200
gravitational lensing and things like this.

730
00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:29.760
Stuff that's a bit outside my professional

731
00:28:29.760 --> 00:28:32.000
wheelhouse, but it's also going to be

732
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.440
carrying out an incredible survey looking for

733
00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:36.640
exoplanets. It's going to stare at the bulge

734
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:39.350
of the Milky Way galaxy, looking for gravity

735
00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:41.420
gravitational microlensing events, which is

736
00:28:41.420 --> 00:28:43.980
when a planet going around a star where we

737
00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:45.900
can see neither the star nor the planet

738
00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:48.460
passes between us and a more distant star

739
00:28:48.860 --> 00:28:50.740
and some of the light from that sour is bent

740
00:28:50.740 --> 00:28:52.660
and focused towards us, causing the star to

741
00:28:52.660 --> 00:28:55.340
brighten and then fade. That microlensing

742
00:28:55.340 --> 00:28:57.460
event lets us detect the object that we can't

743
00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:00.380
see passing by in between and it

744
00:29:00.380 --> 00:29:02.820
will also let us find free floating planets.

745
00:29:02.820 --> 00:29:05.180
So Nancy Grace Roman Telescope still going to

746
00:29:05.180 --> 00:29:07.580
do a fabulous kind of census type survey

747
00:29:07.980 --> 00:29:10.380
of planets towards the middle of our galaxy

748
00:29:10.380 --> 00:29:13.120
using this micro technique. It's

749
00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:15.400
also carrying its other instrument, which is

750
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:18.800
a really high contrast camera with a very

751
00:29:18.800 --> 00:29:21.680
small field of view, very different, that is

752
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:24.280
attached to a coronagraph. And a coronagraph

753
00:29:24.280 --> 00:29:26.760
is a fabulous device that allows you to block

754
00:29:26.760 --> 00:29:29.760
out the light from a light source like

755
00:29:29.760 --> 00:29:32.400
a star and allow you to look at things that

756
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:34.320
are very near to that light source that would

757
00:29:34.320 --> 00:29:36.680
normally be lost in the glare. And um, this

758
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:38.800
is planned to take advantage of the fact that

759
00:29:38.800 --> 00:29:40.400
this thing's in space. We don't have the

760
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:42.680
Earth's atmosphere to deal with to

761
00:29:43.300 --> 00:29:45.580
use both the camera and a spectrograph that

762
00:29:45.580 --> 00:29:48.340
are connected to this coronagraph

763
00:29:48.820 --> 00:29:51.540
to look at exoplanets and actually try and

764
00:29:51.540 --> 00:29:54.260
get direct imaging observations of them and

765
00:29:54.260 --> 00:29:56.220
to learn more about their atmospheres. It'll

766
00:29:56.220 --> 00:29:57.900
be used for planets more like the size of

767
00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:00.180
Jupiter than the Earth, but it's going to be

768
00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:02.420
an incredible tool for learning more about

769
00:30:02.420 --> 00:30:03.780
planets around stars like the sun

770
00:30:03.780 --> 00:30:04.340
effectively.

771
00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:07.210
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it's going to be very exciting and uh,

772
00:30:07.300 --> 00:30:09.220
can't wait. Hopefully everything will run

773
00:30:09.300 --> 00:30:12.180
according to plan on August 30th, which

774
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:14.710
uh, by the time this, this podcast is

775
00:30:14.710 --> 00:30:17.630
released we'll be three days away. And

776
00:30:18.080 --> 00:30:21.070
um, yeah, we wait with bated breath. Uh, it's

777
00:30:21.070 --> 00:30:23.590
only got to go a million kilometres to get

778
00:30:23.590 --> 00:30:26.510
where it's going which will take um, it's not

779
00:30:26.510 --> 00:30:28.550
a heck of a long trip but it's going to take

780
00:30:28.550 --> 00:30:31.350
them ah, a little while to get there. I can't

781
00:30:31.350 --> 00:30:32.670
remember how long it was now.

782
00:30:33.070 --> 00:30:35.470
Jonti Horner: Oh well it's 100 days to roll on out to the

783
00:30:35.470 --> 00:30:37.470
Lagrange point for a start and then it'll be

784
00:30:37.470 --> 00:30:40.470
time to get yourself fired up and

785
00:30:40.470 --> 00:30:42.270
get all the testing done and all the rest of

786
00:30:42.270 --> 00:30:44.770
it. But it's going to be a fabulous tool and

787
00:30:44.770 --> 00:30:47.530
I think, I know I myself, my

788
00:30:47.530 --> 00:30:49.810
research is mainly theoretical, I'm mainly

789
00:30:49.810 --> 00:30:51.490
working on computers and to be honest I'm at

790
00:30:51.490 --> 00:30:53.290
a stage in my career and I'm sure Fred Watson

791
00:30:53.290 --> 00:30:54.650
can empathise with this where I'm becoming

792
00:30:54.650 --> 00:30:56.450
more of an administrator and a supervisor

793
00:30:56.450 --> 00:30:58.610
than I am a researcher. But um, I know

794
00:30:58.610 --> 00:31:00.890
colleagues of mine at UNISQ have been very

795
00:31:00.890 --> 00:31:03.290
successful in getting time to use the James

796
00:31:03.290 --> 00:31:05.290
Webb Space Telescope to study exoplanet

797
00:31:05.290 --> 00:31:06.770
atmospheres. And I'm thinking here

798
00:31:06.770 --> 00:31:09.130
particularly of George Zhao and Chelsea Huang

799
00:31:09.130 --> 00:31:11.210
who are really uh, truly world class

800
00:31:11.210 --> 00:31:13.570
scientists and I think they are waiting with

801
00:31:13.570 --> 00:31:15.670
bated breath to see what be able to do with

802
00:31:15.670 --> 00:31:18.270
this. So yes, you'll get a lot of discoveries

803
00:31:18.270 --> 00:31:20.030
coming out from the us but we will have

804
00:31:20.030 --> 00:31:22.270
Australian involvement looking at this and

805
00:31:22.430 --> 00:31:24.670
getting amazing results right here in

806
00:31:24.670 --> 00:31:26.870
Australia and for people living in other

807
00:31:26.870 --> 00:31:28.510
countries, other countries will have their

808
00:31:28.510 --> 00:31:30.830
own scientists beavering away

809
00:31:31.310 --> 00:31:33.710
using Nancy Grey's Roman telescope to do

810
00:31:33.710 --> 00:31:35.630
amazing, amazing things indeed.

811
00:31:35.790 --> 00:31:38.630
Andrew Dunkley: And uh, we will uh, obviously let you

812
00:31:38.630 --> 00:31:41.630
know how it all goes uh, once we know

813
00:31:42.300 --> 00:31:44.140
whether or not it launched on time, whether

814
00:31:44.140 --> 00:31:46.650
or not anything fingers crossed happened to

815
00:31:46.650 --> 00:31:49.100
uh, slow it down, whatever. Hopefully not. It

816
00:31:49.980 --> 00:31:52.860
should all go according to plan one

817
00:31:52.860 --> 00:31:55.340
hopes. Um, anyway we'll watch with interest

818
00:31:55.340 --> 00:31:57.100
and you can read that storey also on

819
00:31:57.100 --> 00:31:59.060
space.com, but uh, there are plenty of

820
00:31:59.060 --> 00:32:01.340
platforms carrying the storey of the Nancy

821
00:32:01.340 --> 00:32:03.710
Grace Roman Observatory. And um,

822
00:32:03.980 --> 00:32:06.380
if all goes to plan, there'll be many, many

823
00:32:06.380 --> 00:32:08.820
more storeys in a few days time. This is

824
00:32:08.820 --> 00:32:11.460
Space Nuts and you're uh, with Andrew Dunkley

825
00:32:11.460 --> 00:32:12.860
and Professor Jonty Horn.

826
00:32:16.120 --> 00:32:18.200
Jonti Horner: Three, two, one.

827
00:32:18.840 --> 00:32:20.040
Space Nuts.

828
00:32:20.360 --> 00:32:22.280
Andrew Dunkley: And seeing we've got a few minutes up our

829
00:32:22.280 --> 00:32:24.920
sleeve, we'll go on to our third and final

830
00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:25.320
storey.

831
00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:27.960
And this one involves three, uh,

832
00:32:28.280 --> 00:32:30.960
moons of Neptune which they think,

833
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:33.360
according to a new study, might have uh, been

834
00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:35.800
created in a rather

835
00:32:36.350 --> 00:32:38.560
um, Earth, uh, shattering or Neptune

836
00:32:38.560 --> 00:32:41.210
shattering way involving the moon

837
00:32:41.210 --> 00:32:43.970
Triton, which is also a very mysterious

838
00:32:43.970 --> 00:32:45.330
place in our solar system.

839
00:32:46.050 --> 00:32:48.090
Jonti Horner: Yeah, and this is a fascinating one. Now some

840
00:32:48.090 --> 00:32:50.810
of the coverage of this has been kind of

841
00:32:50.810 --> 00:32:53.210
presenting this as a new theory that's come

842
00:32:53.210 --> 00:32:54.770
up from the observations. And to me it's

843
00:32:54.770 --> 00:32:57.170
actually a bit the other way around where

844
00:32:57.170 --> 00:32:59.250
these are observations that are potentially

845
00:32:59.250 --> 00:33:01.810
supporting ideas that have been held for a

846
00:33:01.810 --> 00:33:04.770
fair while. Now. Neptune has a

847
00:33:04.770 --> 00:33:07.210
system of satellites like the other giant

848
00:33:07.210 --> 00:33:09.730
planets in the ice giant Uranus. But

849
00:33:09.730 --> 00:33:12.350
Neptune's is unusual. You've a

850
00:33:12.350 --> 00:33:15.310
real behemoth of a moon in the form of Triton

851
00:33:15.870 --> 00:33:18.710
that along with our moon is one of the two

852
00:33:18.710 --> 00:33:20.950
oddest moons of any planet in the solar

853
00:33:20.950 --> 00:33:23.310
system. To give a bit of context from that

854
00:33:23.310 --> 00:33:26.150
and take a step back, aside from our moon and

855
00:33:26.150 --> 00:33:29.070
Triton, all of the other hundreds of moons

856
00:33:29.070 --> 00:33:31.510
in the solar system fall into two real

857
00:33:31.510 --> 00:33:33.870
categories. You've got regular satellites

858
00:33:34.190 --> 00:33:37.150
which fall on orbits

859
00:33:37.150 --> 00:33:39.110
that are above the equators of their planets,

860
00:33:39.110 --> 00:33:41.190
are very close in and they're going around on

861
00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:43.030
circular orbits that are in the same

862
00:33:43.030 --> 00:33:45.310
direction as a planet's spin. And they're

863
00:33:45.310 --> 00:33:47.470
thought to have formed particularly around

864
00:33:47.470 --> 00:33:50.030
the gas giant planets, but also around Uranus

865
00:33:50.030 --> 00:33:52.150
and Neptune in much the same way that the

866
00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:53.710
planets formed around the sun in that you had

867
00:33:53.710 --> 00:33:55.390
a disc of material around the planet and

868
00:33:55.390 --> 00:33:57.190
moons formed in that disc. They're quite

869
00:33:57.190 --> 00:34:00.070
compact and close in. You've

870
00:34:00.070 --> 00:34:02.470
then got irregular satellites which are um,

871
00:34:02.470 --> 00:34:04.790
much, much, much further from their planets,

872
00:34:05.510 --> 00:34:07.750
um, are found around. The outer planets

873
00:34:08.310 --> 00:34:11.230
are moving on a wide range of very elongated,

874
00:34:11.230 --> 00:34:14.130
often retrograde orbits to be captured

875
00:34:14.130 --> 00:34:16.610
objects that have then been smashed into

876
00:34:16.610 --> 00:34:19.570
pieces, giving you families of satellites.

877
00:34:19.810 --> 00:34:21.770
And it's these that give Jupiter and Saturn

878
00:34:21.770 --> 00:34:23.930
in particular such incredible numbers of

879
00:34:23.930 --> 00:34:26.090
satellites. More than 100 for Jupiter, more

880
00:34:26.090 --> 00:34:27.970
than 200 for Saturn, currently known.

881
00:34:29.730 --> 00:34:32.330
Triton and our moon stand out as

882
00:34:32.330 --> 00:34:34.610
oddities because they don't quite fit either

883
00:34:34.610 --> 00:34:37.210
class. And for Earth's

884
00:34:37.210 --> 00:34:39.530
satellite, the moon, the origin of the moon

885
00:34:39.530 --> 00:34:41.490
seems to have been a giant impact, very

886
00:34:41.490 --> 00:34:43.490
different to either scenario. For the Regular

887
00:34:43.490 --> 00:34:46.270
irregular sate. But Triton around

888
00:34:46.270 --> 00:34:49.190
Neptune is really kind of weird.

889
00:34:49.190 --> 00:34:51.670
It's a moon that is 2,700 kilometres in

890
00:34:51.670 --> 00:34:54.670
diameter. It's a chunky

891
00:34:54.670 --> 00:34:57.510
boy. It is close enough in that it

892
00:34:57.510 --> 00:34:59.030
would normally be considered one of the

893
00:34:59.030 --> 00:35:01.550
regular satellites. And it is orbiting

894
00:35:01.790 --> 00:35:04.190
pretty much above Neptune's equator. But it's

895
00:35:04.190 --> 00:35:06.390
going around the wrong way. It's moving on a

896
00:35:06.390 --> 00:35:09.190
retrograde orbit when all of the other

897
00:35:09.190 --> 00:35:11.470
moons in the inner part of the Neptune system

898
00:35:11.470 --> 00:35:14.020
are going around on a programme red orbit. So

899
00:35:14.020 --> 00:35:16.700
there is no real possibility that Triton

900
00:35:16.700 --> 00:35:18.700
could have formed where it is today. And

901
00:35:18.700 --> 00:35:21.380
that's led for many decades

902
00:35:21.540 --> 00:35:23.420
people to speculate as to the origin of

903
00:35:23.420 --> 00:35:26.420
Triton. And typically the two main ideas

904
00:35:26.420 --> 00:35:29.340
are either that it was formed by a

905
00:35:29.340 --> 00:35:31.940
transeptunion object or an object like Pluto

906
00:35:32.420 --> 00:35:34.700
coming into the Neptune system, colliding

907
00:35:34.700 --> 00:35:36.300
with the moon, knocking that moon out of

908
00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:38.260
orbit, and Triton being captured by the

909
00:35:38.260 --> 00:35:40.980
exchange of angular momentum. That's not

910
00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:42.300
really the favourite idea though. The

911
00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:44.940
favoured idea is that you had a binary object

912
00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:47.340
a bit like Pluto and Charon, or

913
00:35:47.980 --> 00:35:50.180
many of the transeptunion objects are these

914
00:35:50.180 --> 00:35:53.100
quite wide binaries of objects with similar

915
00:35:53.100 --> 00:35:55.780
sizes. You had one of these

916
00:35:55.780 --> 00:35:57.940
objects in the early days of the solar

917
00:35:57.940 --> 00:35:59.780
system, came very close to Neptune and you

918
00:35:59.780 --> 00:36:01.540
had this three body encounter where you've

919
00:36:01.540 --> 00:36:04.380
got Triton and um, its companion,

920
00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:06.180
which was possibly another object the size of

921
00:36:06.180 --> 00:36:09.050
Pluto, bound together, coming

922
00:36:09.050 --> 00:36:11.130
so close to Neptune that Neptune tore the

923
00:36:11.130 --> 00:36:14.010
couple apart. As it tore them apart,

924
00:36:14.010 --> 00:36:16.490
Triton was moving around its shared centre of

925
00:36:16.490 --> 00:36:19.410
mass with its partner at such a speed that it

926
00:36:19.410 --> 00:36:21.290
was moving slower than the escape velocity of

927
00:36:21.290 --> 00:36:23.770
Neptune. So one component of the binary was

928
00:36:23.770 --> 00:36:25.690
flung out and the other was captured. And

929
00:36:25.690 --> 00:36:27.610
that's a way to slow something down enough

930
00:36:27.610 --> 00:36:30.450
that it can be captured. So you trap Triton

931
00:36:30.450 --> 00:36:33.090
into this orbit that is retrograde,

932
00:36:33.490 --> 00:36:35.910
going around the wrong way around that

933
00:36:35.910 --> 00:36:38.110
quickly damps down to become circular because

934
00:36:38.110 --> 00:36:40.230
of tidal effects with Neptune.

935
00:36:41.270 --> 00:36:43.030
Now that seems to be the storey of Triton.

936
00:36:43.030 --> 00:36:45.310
And what supports this is that the regular

937
00:36:45.310 --> 00:36:47.870
satellites of Neptune are uh, pretty small

938
00:36:47.870 --> 00:36:50.750
and insignificant and smaller and

939
00:36:50.750 --> 00:36:53.550
more insignificant than the similar satellite

940
00:36:53.550 --> 00:36:55.150
systems of the other planets. They seem to be

941
00:36:55.150 --> 00:36:56.750
a bit smaller and more weedy than you'd

942
00:36:56.750 --> 00:36:57.670
expect them to be.

943
00:36:57.910 --> 00:36:58.470
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

944
00:36:58.630 --> 00:37:00.950
Jonti Horner: So the idea is that the capture of a moon the

945
00:37:00.950 --> 00:37:03.830
size of Triton would be pretty dramatic

946
00:37:03.830 --> 00:37:05.830
and would destabilise the Neptune system.

947
00:37:06.470 --> 00:37:09.170
The outside Triton, Nereid, which was the

948
00:37:09.170 --> 00:37:11.610
second moon to be found around Neptune, is a

949
00:37:11.610 --> 00:37:14.090
really interesting one because it's a fair

950
00:37:14.090 --> 00:37:15.890
bit further out than Triton but it's moving

951
00:37:15.890 --> 00:37:18.690
on this really elongated prograde orbit.

952
00:37:18.770 --> 00:37:20.490
And um, it's thought that that may well have

953
00:37:20.490 --> 00:37:23.490
been initially a regular satellite

954
00:37:23.490 --> 00:37:25.610
that was destabilised by Triton and flung

955
00:37:25.610 --> 00:37:27.810
onto this longer orbit. It's not really

956
00:37:27.810 --> 00:37:30.250
considered an irregular moon even though it

957
00:37:30.250 --> 00:37:32.290
behaves a bit like when it's really close in.

958
00:37:32.530 --> 00:37:34.710
But the moon's closer to Neptune, Neptune

959
00:37:34.710 --> 00:37:37.310
than Triton, of which there are seven known.

960
00:37:37.310 --> 00:37:39.390
We've got Naiad, Thalassa, Despina,

961
00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:42.430
Galatea, Larissa, Hippocamp and Proteus.

962
00:37:43.310 --> 00:37:45.550
They're all relatively small.

963
00:37:45.790 --> 00:37:48.430
Proteus is the biggest at 420ks.

964
00:37:48.590 --> 00:37:51.430
The rest are not quite as big. And um, the

965
00:37:51.430 --> 00:37:53.150
only images we've got up close and personal

966
00:37:53.230 --> 00:37:55.790
come from the Voyager 2 spacecraft in 1989

967
00:37:55.790 --> 00:37:57.390
that show these moons to be a little bit

968
00:37:57.390 --> 00:38:00.150
irregular. And um, they're also a little bit

969
00:38:00.150 --> 00:38:03.110
more stirred up and agitated in orbital

970
00:38:03.110 --> 00:38:05.870
tilts and orbital eccentricities than in,

971
00:38:06.490 --> 00:38:08.130
I mean they're barely tilted and they're

972
00:38:08.130 --> 00:38:10.610
barely on non circular orbits but you'd

973
00:38:10.610 --> 00:38:12.490
expect them, if they were properly original

974
00:38:12.490 --> 00:38:14.490
regulars to be totally circular.

975
00:38:15.610 --> 00:38:18.490
So the idea is maybe Triton stir them up.

976
00:38:19.050 --> 00:38:21.210
Now one of the suggestions to explain why

977
00:38:21.210 --> 00:38:23.970
they're all so small is that Triton as it was

978
00:38:23.970 --> 00:38:26.130
captured and then at its migrated senses,

979
00:38:26.130 --> 00:38:27.570
stirred them up enough that the original

980
00:38:27.570 --> 00:38:30.290
moons were destroyed. It stirred them onto

981
00:38:30.290 --> 00:38:32.910
all bits that collided with each other that

982
00:38:32.910 --> 00:38:34.870
formed a new disc of material. Some was lost

983
00:38:34.870 --> 00:38:37.580
but new moons were born of the process. And

984
00:38:37.580 --> 00:38:39.990
uh, that's become kind of like the canonical

985
00:38:40.230 --> 00:38:42.630
understanding of what we think happened to

986
00:38:42.630 --> 00:38:44.070
Neptune's moons in the early days.

987
00:38:44.070 --> 00:38:46.630
And that all a lot of background brings us to

988
00:38:46.630 --> 00:38:48.910
the new observations. As I say, the

989
00:38:48.910 --> 00:38:51.710
observations we had before came from

990
00:38:51.710 --> 00:38:54.070
Voyager 2. That's the up close and personal

991
00:38:54.070 --> 00:38:56.670
we've got. But there's been some new work

992
00:38:56.670 --> 00:38:59.190
done using the James Webb Space Telescope to

993
00:38:59.190 --> 00:39:01.910
get data ah on three of these moons,

994
00:39:02.070 --> 00:39:05.020
Lara, Larissa and Galatea being two of them

995
00:39:05.180 --> 00:39:07.590
and I think the third one was um,

996
00:39:07.660 --> 00:39:10.140
possibly um, the next one out

997
00:39:10.140 --> 00:39:12.380
Proteus have to double cheque that but I

998
00:39:12.380 --> 00:39:14.660
think it was. And what they found though was

999
00:39:14.660 --> 00:39:17.350
when they looked at both Larissa and

1000
00:39:17.350 --> 00:39:20.180
um, Galatea, they

1001
00:39:20.180 --> 00:39:22.940
found clear signals of clay

1002
00:39:22.940 --> 00:39:25.580
type minerals on the surfaces of these moons.

1003
00:39:26.300 --> 00:39:28.300
Now that's really unexpected.

1004
00:39:29.200 --> 00:39:31.820
Clay minerals form at uh,

1005
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:33.360
temperatures high enough for you to have

1006
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.080
liquid water because clays are formed in the

1007
00:39:36.080 --> 00:39:38.680
presence of liquid water. And the surfaces of

1008
00:39:38.680 --> 00:39:41.640
moons in Neptune's orbit are blooming cold.

1009
00:39:41.640 --> 00:39:44.399
You know, they're like 180200 degrees below

1010
00:39:44.399 --> 00:39:46.640
freezing, which is not where you'd expect to

1011
00:39:46.640 --> 00:39:48.840
find liquid water. So what the authors are

1012
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:51.560
proposing is that, uh, the surfaces of these

1013
00:39:51.560 --> 00:39:53.120
moons, which look, to be honest, more like

1014
00:39:53.120 --> 00:39:54.960
the surfaces of asteroids in the asteroid

1015
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:57.830
belt, are actually made from

1016
00:39:57.830 --> 00:40:00.470
material that was once deep in the interior

1017
00:40:00.870 --> 00:40:03.750
of moons that formed before, that therefore

1018
00:40:03.750 --> 00:40:05.790
got hot enough for liquid water to be

1019
00:40:05.790 --> 00:40:07.350
present. And we've talked a lot before about

1020
00:40:07.350 --> 00:40:09.110
other moons in the solar system that have

1021
00:40:09.110 --> 00:40:11.910
subsurface oceans. So you have these

1022
00:40:12.070 --> 00:40:13.670
first generation of moons with their

1023
00:40:13.670 --> 00:40:16.390
subsurface oceans water present

1024
00:40:16.630 --> 00:40:18.470
high enough temperatures for you to develop

1025
00:40:18.470 --> 00:40:21.390
all these clay minerals. Then those moons get

1026
00:40:21.390 --> 00:40:23.790
stirred up. When Triton is captured, there

1027
00:40:23.790 --> 00:40:25.470
are collisions, they're smashed apart, and

1028
00:40:25.470 --> 00:40:28.230
you create a disc of material around Neptune

1029
00:40:28.930 --> 00:40:30.770
that contains the material from the old

1030
00:40:30.770 --> 00:40:33.690
moons, clays and all. Then you form new

1031
00:40:33.690 --> 00:40:35.770
moons, and some of those new moons have that

1032
00:40:35.770 --> 00:40:38.770
clay material on their surface. So what's

1033
00:40:38.770 --> 00:40:41.190
been argued essentially, is that this, uh,

1034
00:40:41.450 --> 00:40:43.850
detection of clays in the last place you'd

1035
00:40:43.850 --> 00:40:46.690
expect to find them is like the smoking gun.

1036
00:40:46.690 --> 00:40:49.210
It's a clue that is telling us about the

1037
00:40:49.210 --> 00:40:51.050
heritage of this system, about events that

1038
00:40:51.050 --> 00:40:53.330
happened more than 4 billion years ago.

1039
00:40:53.890 --> 00:40:55.530
And he's telling us about this kind of

1040
00:40:55.530 --> 00:40:57.490
collisional history and the dramatic storey

1041
00:40:57.490 --> 00:40:59.570
of the Neptune satellite system. I think it's

1042
00:40:59.570 --> 00:41:02.150
an astonish, astonishingly cool result. And

1043
00:41:02.150 --> 00:41:04.270
it's really cool for me, as someone who's

1044
00:41:04.350 --> 00:41:06.470
read about Triton a lot in the past, thought

1045
00:41:06.470 --> 00:41:08.790
about it a lot, that the ideas that were

1046
00:41:08.790 --> 00:41:10.630
being put around even when I was a teenager

1047
00:41:10.630 --> 00:41:12.630
and listening to talks at my local astronomy

1048
00:41:12.630 --> 00:41:15.070
society about the disruption of the Neptune

1049
00:41:15.070 --> 00:41:17.550
satellite system are suddenly finding a test,

1050
00:41:17.550 --> 00:41:20.070
thanks to people using James Webb. So theory

1051
00:41:20.070 --> 00:41:22.710
making a prediction, that prediction getting

1052
00:41:22.710 --> 00:41:25.070
more support. I think this is really lovely.

1053
00:41:25.230 --> 00:41:27.470
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it is. Uh, and it certainly shows the

1054
00:41:27.470 --> 00:41:30.200
worth of James Webb. And very soon, the

1055
00:41:30.200 --> 00:41:32.180
Nancy Grace Roman Observatory, we're, uh,

1056
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:33.960
going to learn more and more about some of

1057
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:36.080
those, um, not so deep

1058
00:41:36.240 --> 00:41:39.160
mysteries in the scheme of things. It's not

1059
00:41:39.160 --> 00:41:41.280
far away, Neptune, but, uh, it's far enough

1060
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.160
away to still be mysterious in many

1061
00:41:44.160 --> 00:41:46.760
ways. We really need to send a mission out

1062
00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:48.160
there again soon, don't we?

1063
00:41:48.240 --> 00:41:50.000
Jonti Horner: I was just thinking that there's been a lot

1064
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:53.000
of talk over the last decade

1065
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:55.385
or so, really, with solar system astronomers,

1066
00:41:55.385 --> 00:41:56.980
astronomers getting more and more

1067
00:41:56.980 --> 00:41:59.780
enthusiastic about the idea of sending new

1068
00:41:59.780 --> 00:42:02.450
spacecraft out to Uranus and Neptune. Um,

1069
00:42:02.450 --> 00:42:04.020
there's always debate when

1070
00:42:05.140 --> 00:42:07.580
it's time to pitch new missions for NASA, of

1071
00:42:07.580 --> 00:42:10.580
the different scales people put in competing

1072
00:42:10.580 --> 00:42:13.020
proposals. And I know at the Last round there

1073
00:42:13.020 --> 00:42:14.620
were a number of proposals of missions to

1074
00:42:14.620 --> 00:42:16.220
Venus because we've not been there for a long

1075
00:42:16.220 --> 00:42:18.420
time in terms of the Americans sent me. I

1076
00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:21.300
know Japan had a fabulous orbit, are doing

1077
00:42:21.300 --> 00:42:23.710
some great work there. There were also some

1078
00:42:23.710 --> 00:42:26.070
really strong proposals of missions

1079
00:42:26.470 --> 00:42:28.830
to Uranus and Neptune. I think this was a

1080
00:42:28.830 --> 00:42:31.190
kind of medium sized stuff, so not Nancy

1081
00:42:31.190 --> 00:42:34.190
Grace Roman pots of money, but more the $400

1082
00:42:34.190 --> 00:42:36.430
million rather than $4 billion price

1083
00:42:36.430 --> 00:42:39.070
missions. And in the last round I think the

1084
00:42:39.070 --> 00:42:41.990
Venus missions won. But there is this growing

1085
00:42:42.550 --> 00:42:45.190
longing to get missions to go back there

1086
00:42:45.270 --> 00:42:47.150
and actually have orbiters because both

1087
00:42:47.150 --> 00:42:49.830
Uranus and Neptune, the only up close and

1088
00:42:49.830 --> 00:42:51.510
personal we've had with them were the Voyager

1089
00:42:51.510 --> 00:42:54.190
spacecraft that launched in 1979.

1090
00:42:55.470 --> 00:42:57.550
You know, launched back when I was one year

1091
00:42:57.550 --> 00:42:57.870
old.

1092
00:42:58.270 --> 00:42:58.710
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

1093
00:42:58.710 --> 00:43:01.070
Jonti Horner: And flew past Uranus and Neptune. It was only

1094
00:43:01.070 --> 00:43:03.310
Voyager 2 that got there. Voyager 1 went off

1095
00:43:03.310 --> 00:43:05.590
on a different journey. So we've had one

1096
00:43:05.590 --> 00:43:07.470
spacecraft that flew past faster than a

1097
00:43:07.470 --> 00:43:09.350
speeding bullet, that spent less than a day

1098
00:43:09.350 --> 00:43:11.390
within good imaging distance of these

1099
00:43:11.390 --> 00:43:14.390
planets, return really tantalising

1100
00:43:14.390 --> 00:43:17.260
information and then departed. And we've

1101
00:43:17.260 --> 00:43:19.580
seen how much we learned from Galileo at

1102
00:43:19.580 --> 00:43:22.380
Jupiter, from Cassini at Saturn, from Juno at

1103
00:43:22.380 --> 00:43:24.700
Jupiter. So there's this growing body of

1104
00:43:24.700 --> 00:43:26.660
scientists who are desperate to see this

1105
00:43:26.660 --> 00:43:29.220
happen. Won't be cheap. And the other thing

1106
00:43:29.220 --> 00:43:31.820
is, if such a mission was approved like next

1107
00:43:31.820 --> 00:43:34.020
week, probably wouldn't launch for the best

1108
00:43:34.020 --> 00:43:36.300
part of a decade and it would take the best

1109
00:43:36.300 --> 00:43:38.500
part of a decade to get there. So it's the

1110
00:43:38.500 --> 00:43:39.860
kind of thing where we're talking now. And

1111
00:43:39.860 --> 00:43:42.100
I'll probably be retarded, retired when these

1112
00:43:42.100 --> 00:43:43.260
spacecraft get there.

1113
00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:44.700
Andrew Dunkley: I don't want to think about it.

1114
00:43:47.980 --> 00:43:49.900
I don't think I'll be beyond retired.

1115
00:43:49.900 --> 00:43:51.980
Jonti Horner: Let's just say that the sooner the better

1116
00:43:51.980 --> 00:43:52.940
that we get there then.

1117
00:43:53.020 --> 00:43:55.900
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed, great storey. You can read

1118
00:43:55.900 --> 00:43:58.660
about it online. Um, plenty of, uh, platforms

1119
00:43:58.660 --> 00:44:01.060
have got storeys about uh, Neptune

1120
00:44:01.060 --> 00:44:03.660
satellites. You can read the scientific paper

1121
00:44:03.820 --> 00:44:06.140
in detail at the journal Science

1122
00:44:06.220 --> 00:44:08.780
Advances. That brings us to the end.

1123
00:44:08.780 --> 00:44:09.980
Jonty, thank you very much.

1124
00:44:10.140 --> 00:44:11.620
Jonti Horner: That's an absolute pleasure. Thank you for

1125
00:44:11.620 --> 00:44:12.140
having me.

1126
00:44:12.600 --> 00:44:14.320
Andrew Dunkley: Always a pleasure. Professor, uh, John de

1127
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:16.440
Horner, professor of Astrophysics at the

1128
00:44:17.160 --> 00:44:19.200
University of Southern Queensland. Between

1129
00:44:19.200 --> 00:44:21.400
episodes, don't forget to visit our website

1130
00:44:21.640 --> 00:44:24.520
for um, things to see and do like

1131
00:44:24.520 --> 00:44:26.760
you can, um, send us messages or questions

1132
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:28.560
through the Ask me anything button at the

1133
00:44:28.560 --> 00:44:31.520
top. It's labelled ama. You can sign up for

1134
00:44:31.520 --> 00:44:33.280
the Astronomy AstroDailyPod feed. Uh, please

1135
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:35.680
leave reviews about the podcast wherever you

1136
00:44:35.680 --> 00:44:38.600
listen to us and visit, uh, the Space

1137
00:44:38.600 --> 00:44:40.440
Nuts shop while you're there.

1138
00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:43.470
Um, Father's Day in Australia coming up

1139
00:44:43.470 --> 00:44:45.150
soon. That's, you know, you might find

1140
00:44:45.150 --> 00:44:46.990
something good in there. A couple of good

1141
00:44:46.990 --> 00:44:48.590
books have been released lately. You might

1142
00:44:48.830 --> 00:44:51.620
like the little cat, maybe. Uh,

1143
00:44:51.630 --> 00:44:54.310
and, uh, thanks to Huw in the studio couldn't

1144
00:44:54.310 --> 00:44:56.830
be with us today. He was actually driving

1145
00:44:56.910 --> 00:44:59.830
over to, um, get to the studio

1146
00:44:59.830 --> 00:45:02.710
for us today. But then, uh, as was

1147
00:45:02.710 --> 00:45:05.310
the case with Neptune, uh, he got hit by a

1148
00:45:05.310 --> 00:45:07.310
Mitsubishi Triton and that was the end of

1149
00:45:07.310 --> 00:45:09.790
that. Uh, and from me, Andrew Dunkley. Oh,

1150
00:45:09.790 --> 00:45:12.030
he's actually okay, you know, he just

1151
00:45:12.030 --> 00:45:13.550
couldn't make it. And from me, Andrew

1152
00:45:13.550 --> 00:45:14.950
Dunkley. Thanks for your company. We'll catch

1153
00:45:14.950 --> 00:45:17.030
you on the next episode of Space Nuts. Bye.

1154
00:45:17.030 --> 00:45:20.030
Bye. You've been listening to the

1155
00:45:20.030 --> 00:45:20.790
Space Nuts

1156
00:45:20.790 --> 00:45:23.750
Jonti Horner: podcast, available at

1157
00:45:23.750 --> 00:45:25.750
Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

1158
00:45:25.989 --> 00:45:28.670
iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast

1159
00:45:28.670 --> 00:45:30.430
player. You can also stream on

1160
00:45:30.430 --> 00:45:32.070
demand@bytes.com.

1161
00:45:32.390 --> 00:45:34.470
Andrew Dunkley: this has been another quality podcast

1162
00:45:34.470 --> 00:45:36.280
production from bytes.com.

1163
00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:37.130
Jonti Horner: um,