April 12, 2026

Relativistic Beaming, Martian Waters & Cosmic Trash: The Space Nuts Q&A

Relativistic Doppler Beaming, Martian Water, and Fusion Confusion In this engaging Q&A edition of Space Nuts, hosts Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson dive into a variety of thought-provoking listener questions that explore the depths of...

Show Notes
Transcript

Relativistic Doppler Beaming, Martian Water, and Fusion Confusion
In this engaging Q&A edition of Space Nuts, hosts Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson dive into a variety of thought-provoking listener questions that explore the depths of astronomy and space science. From the complexities of relativistic Doppler beaming in black holes to the intriguing evidence of water on Mars and the mysteries of nuclear fusion in the sun, this episode is brimming with cosmic insights and scientific clarity.
Episode Highlights:
- Relativistic Doppler Beaming: Ron from New York asks about the brightness differences in black hole accretion disks. Andrew and Fred explain how relativistic speeds affect light emission, leading to the phenomenon known as Doppler beaming and why we don't see the expected color shifts.
- Water on Mars: Sunny from California questions the geological evidence for water on Mars. The hosts discuss the findings from the Phoenix lander and the implications of briny water on the Martian surface, confirming that it was indeed water, albeit potentially different from what we know on Earth.
- Earth's Mass and Space Junk: Holt raises a fascinating question about how much material we can send into space before it impacts Earth's orbit. Andrew and Fred provide insights into the negligible mass we've launched compared to the Earth's total mass, reassuring listeners that our planet remains unaffected.
- Fusion Reactions in the Sun: Ken from Maroochydore seeks clarification on the fusion process in the sun, specifically regarding mass loss and binding energy. The hosts unravel the complexities of fusion, explaining how energy is produced and the significance of mass defects in nuclear reactions.

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Hi there, Thanks for joining us.

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This is a Q and A edition of Space Nuts

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where we talk astronomy and space science and we answer

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audience questions or we just say a lot of words

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that sound like answers, but then they'll check it later

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on the internet and realized we were just giving them

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an absolute.

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Loaded cod swallop.

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Coming up today, relative lp, you're not supposed to be

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talking yet. Relativistic relativistic Doppler beaming. What on Earth is

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that we're about to find out? Sunny has sent us

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an audio question about Mars water.

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Is it water? Was it water? Could it have been

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something else?

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Holt is asking how much stuff we can send off

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the planet before the planet sort of you know, starts

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to fall off itself and fusion reaction in the sun.

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We will dispel that confusion very very soon. On this

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episode of Space Nuts.

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Fifteen, Channel ten nine ignition Space Nuts or three two.

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Space Nurse and I reported Neil Good.

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Professor Fred Watson, a storm at large's here. You've already

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heard his voice. Hello Fred, Nice.

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To see you. Andrew. I'm always reminded of and you

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might know about this as well, even though our listeners

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are all too young to remember. But on the Goon

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Show there was once an episode where Eccles came on

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before he was supposed to. I had to make the

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comment do.

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I remember that? Yes, I'm.

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Which reminds me of a famous incident on ABC Radio

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where I worked for twenty two years, where a news

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reader was trying to do the bulletin but they were

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halfway through a live interview with Spike Milligan. Spike kept

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interrupting at the end of every sentence with and Spike

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Milligan and Spike Milligans. And so when the story finished,

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the newsreader said, Da Da Da Da da and Spike Milligan.

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He got He got fired for that. He got fired

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for that. It's one of the funniest pieces of radio

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you will ever hear. Look it up online. But he

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got canned.

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Probably yeah, old BBC days, probably, Oh well yeah, probably, well, yeah,

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the times have changed. Yes, Rather, let's get into some questions, Fred,

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and I've got our first one here from Ron, who

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is in upstate New York. He says, springs just around

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the corner. He says, hope all is well down under? Well,

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if you like wind, yeah it is, it's going great,

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and it's been pretty windy here lately. I have a

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question about relativistic Doppler beaming that we see on a

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black hole s accretion disc which causes the side moving

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towards us to be brighter than the side moving away

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from us. Why are we not seeing blue and red

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Doppler shifts in the color of the light in those

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respective regions. There's so much, and thanks so much for

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the great podcast. It is our pleasure. It is our pleasure.

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Thanks for the question, Ron, It's.

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A good question, and there's the answer, Jordy. Yeah, so

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we do. We do see the Doppler shift. But the

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reason why we don't talk about that is because this

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radiation that's being beamed out is a continuum radiation. By that,

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I mean it's at all wavelengths. So to make Doppler work,

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just the backstory here. If you've got something coming towards you,

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it's light is shifted to the blue. If it's moving

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away from you, it's light it's shifted to the red.

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But you need a feature in order to detect that.

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And some sources of light, for example, it actually even

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works with LEDs does this. But if you think of

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the old orange sodium lights which we used to see

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the low pressure sodium lights. They emit all their light

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at one wavelength, which is called the sodium D line

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for historical reasons. And so if you had a sodium

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lamp coming towards you, then that peak of wavelength would

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be moved to the blue end of the spectrum. If

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it was going away from you, it be moved to

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the red end of the spectrum, the sodium line. But

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in order to so that happens for all moving objects.

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But in order for you to be able to detect

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that it's moving, you need a discrete peak of lights

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or radiation, And in the case of a moving sodium lamp,

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that's it the peak of the sodium sodium emission line.

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If you've got a continuum a spectrum that was all

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the way from blue to red or violet to red, yes,

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it can be moved by the Doppler shift, but you

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don't see it, you don't detect it. And so in

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the case of the material swirling around a black hole

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in the accretion disc, exactly as Ron says, it actually

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undergoes something called relativistic Doppler beaming. And because this stuff

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is moving so fast, it's really not far short of

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the speed of light, the path of the photons is altered,

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and they tend to cluster around the direction in which

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the movement is taking place. And that's why an accretion

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disc is brighter on one side than it is on

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the other. It's brighter in the side that's coming towards

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you because of this relativistic Doppler beaming. It's quite an

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esoteric topic. I'm quite amazed that we're covering this on

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Space nuts, but it's really good stuff. Thank you, Ron,

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because you're clearly very very well versed in this stuff

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as well.

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I mean, when you look at the images of black

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holes that we now have, you're looking at an orange

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frosted doughnut. Basically, that's that's the primary color, the orange,

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but it is brighter on one side.

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This is there are.

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Blight spots in it, that's correct. Yeah, and some of

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that will be due to relativistic beaming.

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Yeah, okay, And how many have they taken now? I

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think there's been maybe three through.

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Yes, so we've got M fifty two was the first,

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is that right?

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Yeah?

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Fifty two the center of our galaxy, Sagittaria s a star.

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But also M fifty two done again with polarization, so

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we could see the magnetism in it. I think that's

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the way it worked. Okay, these we were with the

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event horizon telescope.

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Because I've got another one here that's of M eighty seven.

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Okay, that's there is another object that's.

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Yeah, that's the third one I was thinking of. I

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didn't know they've done in fifty two. Again, but the

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technology has reached a point now where we can actually

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image these things. They're not photos, so are they? These

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are gathered through radio spectrometry of Yeah.

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It's basically a planet sized array of radio telescopes that

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conspire together in very cunning ways to make these images,

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to synthesize the images.

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Fantastic stuff. Ron Thanks so much for the question.

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Really enjoyed that one, and hopefully hopefully we'll hear from

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you again. Our next question comes from Sunny What a

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great name for somebody who listens to an astronomy podcast.

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Hello, Spacenuts, This is Sunny Skies from southern California, Long Beach.

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In fact, my question for you today is regarding geological

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formations on Mars, which indicate there was large quantities of

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water for a long period of time. Similar to something

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we'd see on Earth. Is there any other corroborative information

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or data to support that it actually was water and

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not some other crazy liquid that we don't have here,

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possibly on Earth?

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Love the podcast the sunny.

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We're trying to it's coming into winter here, so it

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won't be sunny for long, Sonny Lovely to hear from you.

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That's a good question, because we've got a lot of

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evidence that shows there was water, rivers, oceans, streams, you know, cestpits,

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whatever you want to call them, on Mars. But that's

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all gone, but we are, you know, the telltale signs

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are there. Sonny's question is was it really water or

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could it have been something else?

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We do know there are other liquid.

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Oceans in our Solar system that are not water. Yes,

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we do, that's right, and there's more than one kind

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of water, which is also a fact that it considers.

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So yeah, could he be onder something or we absolutely

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did set certain that Mars had water?

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I think we are water perhaps.

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Yes, and that's why for that reason we still we

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can still see it. So and I'll explain that in

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a second. Yes, I guess gives me. Sonny's point is

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we see evidence of liquid. Could it have been something

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peculiar that we don't know about, And.

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In a way it is because.

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We have seen evidence on Mars from principally from the

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Phoenix Lander, which was on the which is near the

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northern Polar regions, the Northern Arctic of Mars, which actually

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analyzed chemically some of these materials. So you might remember

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Andrew Phoenix had a little backo. It was didn't have

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any wheels, it was stationary, but it had a bacco

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with which it could scrape away the top surface of

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the soil of Mars. And it didn't have to scrape

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much before it got to solid ice. And the first

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hint that this was ice was in the color it

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was white. The second hint was that some scraps of

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this material that had been dug up by the backo

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basically disappeared after a few days. They had turned directly

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into vapor. They'd sublimed, and that's exactly what you'd expect

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for water ice to do. But more especially, that bacho

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wasn't just there to scrape things. It was to pour

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the things it had dug up into a chemical analysis.

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And that's the smoking gun, because the chemical analysis demonstrated

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that yes, this was water, water ice, solid ice, and

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that's there in large quantities under the surface of the

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Arctic regions of Mars. And we know it's there in

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the on the surface actually in the polar caps of Mars,

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and we know it's water ice from there because it's

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got the spectral signature of water ice. But the reason

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why I say it could be a bit different is

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that we believe that this water is very briny, that

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it's rich in what are called perchlorates, which actually lower

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the freezing point. And there's evidence that for a short

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time there were droplets of water actually on the legs

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of the Phoenix Lander, probably made of ice that have

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been melted during the descent, vaporized, condensed out onto the

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onto the legs of the lander, and stayed liquid for

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a little time while the heat was well that temperature

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was high enough. So all the all the evidence points

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to those oceans having been made of water. Although it

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might be very briny, it might be chemically different from

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from what we experience on Earth. But only to look

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at the different forms that water comes in on Earth.

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When you've got some of them where you've got cyanide

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dissolved in it, in some of these pools, you know,

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in Yosemite in places like that. So I think I

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think it's a good question. But I think basically H

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two O is what makes up the contents of those

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format oceans.

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I think what's interesting about Mars water is that it's

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it's heavier.

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Than Earth water.

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It's got a much higher ratio of isotopes, heavy isotopes

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of hydrogen. I think is which is which is heavy water?

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Not the stuff ever the nuclear reactors, but natural it

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is water.

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Yes, that's right. It's it's similar to what was used

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in the nuclear reactors. So it's it's hydrogen with an

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extra neutron. I guess, is that right to make deuterium?

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And and yes, you're right that the ratio of and

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once again this comes from analysis by machines like Phoenix.

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On the surface of Mars, there's a higher ratio of.

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I think that's the way around. It is a higher

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ratio of heavy water to normal water on Mars than

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there is on Earth. I think that's the case.

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Yeah.

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And the other thing sunny is you couldn't drink it

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in its current state. It would need to be cleaned

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up a bit.

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Yeah.

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Do you remember we want to talk about how much

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heavy water you could drink and still survive, and it's come.

227
00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:36.919
It's a fair bit. Actually it was a few percent, yes, but.

228
00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:40.639
If you drank it for long enough, it would start

229
00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:47.320
you'd start to basically fall apart, literally fall apart, because

230
00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:53.320
the deuterium wouldn't your bodies. We're not built for it, basically.

231
00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:53.639
Yes, exactly.

232
00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.200
Yeah, if we were to find a water world that

233
00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:59.799
was one hundred percent D two ozer rather than age,

234
00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:02.120
we couldn't live there.

235
00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:03.279
It would kill it.

236
00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:08.360
Even though it's water, it's just it's not our water,

237
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:12.600
heavy water. Yes, yes, So your point is very very good, Sonny.

238
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.039
There's a bit more to it than.

239
00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:16.080
Meets the eye.

240
00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.279
And yes it is water on Mars, but it's not

241
00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.519
the same as our water. It's close, but it's not

242
00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:27.720
quite the same. Thanks for the question, and hopefully hopefully

243
00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:30.240
we'll hear from you again, Sonny. Great question, that one.

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This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred

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00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.879
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I like this next question from Holt because it's it's

269
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:21.720
it's so simple, and yet it's it's something that people

270
00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.720
wonder about because we have reached a point where we've

271
00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:31.600
been going sending stuff into space for decades now. And

272
00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:34.840
he goes on to say, we've sent several objects beyond

273
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:38.240
Earth's gravitational field. How much can we send before it

274
00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.559
affects Earth's orbit? That comes from Halt. I don't know

275
00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:45.279
where you're from, but great question, Halt love this one. Yeah,

276
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:50.240
we're basically filling the universe with our own junk. But

277
00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:52.919
all of that stuff that we're sending out there comes

278
00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:57.240
off planet in one way or another. So yeah, what

279
00:16:57.320 --> 00:16:58.799
could be the long term effect?

280
00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:05.400
Yeah, great question. So the figures are and I'm pulling

281
00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:07.640
this from my memory, but I think this is right.

282
00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.119
In orbit, we have something like I think it's about

283
00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:13.839
eleven thousand tons of stuff.

284
00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:14.680
Is that all?

285
00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:20.720
Yeah, something like that. That's with all of the spacecraft

286
00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.720
that have been launched. To remember, these spacecraft are made

287
00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.839
of very light materials because you can't you don't want

288
00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.519
heavy stuff being sent into orbit because you're wasting fuel.

289
00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.279
The lighter you can make your spacecraft, the less fuel

290
00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:36.240
you need. So it's all about economics. But I think

291
00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:40.119
it's about eleven thousand tons in orbit, and when you

292
00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:44.400
look at spacecraft that have gone beyond that, it's vanishingly small.

293
00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:47.839
You know, it's probably less than one hundred tons. It

294
00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:50.519
might be about one hundred tons for stuff that's gone

295
00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:56.200
out beyond Earth orbit. So that when you compare it

296
00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.839
with the mass of the Earth, which I can't remember,

297
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.079
but it's a lot, it's one earth mass actually in units,

298
00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:08.039
and you know, but it's it's gazillions of tons compared

299
00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:12.359
with what we've put into space. So it's not going

300
00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:16.400
to affect the Earth's orbit, and actually the orbit itself.

301
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.960
Even if we put you know, a significant fraction of

302
00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:23.880
the Earth's mass into orbit around the Earth, it wouldn't

303
00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:27.000
necessarily affect the Earth's orbit because it tends to need

304
00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:31.000
an interaction between two objects to change the orbit of something,

305
00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:35.200
a clout from another planet or something like that, that

306
00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:39.920
would change the orbit, right whereas whereas just doing something

307
00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:43.039
that has the same center of mass as the Earth does,

308
00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.720
if I can put it that way, doesn't necessarily change

309
00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:49.799
the orbit at all. But even notwithstanding that, we're we're

310
00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.039
nowhere near anything that would actually affect the Earth's well being.

311
00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.599
The mess of the Earth is five point ninety seven

312
00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.839
two one nine times times tender the twenty fourth pounds kilograms.

313
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:07.839
Yep, ten to the twenty fourth power. Yeah, that sounds right.

314
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:09.079
It's a lot.

315
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:10.160
I big.

316
00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:14.000
I think to remember that the sun is something. It's

317
00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:17.519
about turns of twenty seven kilograms, I think, or it

318
00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:19.839
could be tons. I can't remember, but.

319
00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:21.400
It's I can look that up too.

320
00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:23.039
Yeah, must have the song.

321
00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.680
I think it's on one point nine to eight nine

322
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:29.079
times times ten to the thirtyeth power kilograms.

323
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:33.039
That's that's kilograms. Okay, so it's turns to twenty seven tons.

324
00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:38.440
Yeah, yep, that's what it now one more than it's

325
00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:42.000
one more. Thing that hold might be interested to know

326
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.279
is that, you know, you've given us the numbers of

327
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:50.000
how much material in terms of weight, has left the planet,

328
00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:54.880
which is a negligible amount, but scientists estimate that roughly

329
00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:59.319
one hundred metric tons of cosmic dust like micro meteorites,

330
00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:01.839
enters the atmosphere.

331
00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:04.519
Every day, every day. That's right, every day.

332
00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:07.440
Yeah, so we're actually getting heavier.

333
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.400
Yeah, we are all more massive. Depending on which way

334
00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:13.039
you want to look at.

335
00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:18.119
It, it's more massive, is the correct You might write.

336
00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:20.519
To be heavier, you need to be in the gravitational

337
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:24.480
field of something. We are in the Sun's gravitational field,

338
00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:25.839
but we wouldn't think of it that way.

339
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:27.599
No, No, So.

340
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.000
When you when you think about it, what we're what

341
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:35.920
we're kicking out of our planet, our gravitational field, it

342
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:37.599
is being replaced like.

343
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:43.039
Yes, yes, quite much more. Yeah, exactly, So thank you

344
00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:47.680
for pointing that out. It's well, it's about a hundred

345
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:52.920
one hundred, one hundred tons are thereabouts, and it's just

346
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:57.319
meteoritic material, so really usually contributes to the atmosphere because

347
00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:59.359
it gets vaporized most of it.

348
00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:03.599
To quote a famous Scottish astronomer, it's space.

349
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:09.000
Clap is what it is that I think he used

350
00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:11.880
to be on my staff the absolut.

351
00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:17.599
All right, great question, made for some interesting discussion and

352
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.839
made me sound useful for a brief second. Thanks for

353
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:24.880
sending it in. Our final question comes from Ken Hi.

354
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.359
Andrew and Fred Ken from a Rouchi door. Longtime listener

355
00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:31.279
and fan, and love the way you make complex issues

356
00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:36.079
sound so simple. I'm trying to understand the basic fusion

357
00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:39.079
reaction that both me and my accountant are struggling with

358
00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:43.680
the basic fusion reaction in our sun and all main

359
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:49.920
sequence stars converts hydrogen to helium to create energy. To

360
00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:54.240
summarize a reaction for hydrogen nuclei, that is, four protons

361
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:58.599
go through two steps to create one helium nucleus containing

362
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:05.079
two neutrons and protons. Additionally, gamma raised neutrinos and positrons

363
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:09.960
are released. My astronomy textbooks say that about six hundred

364
00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:13.519
million tons of hydrogen are converted to five hundred and

365
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:17.160
ninety six million tons of helium every second in our Sun.

366
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.839
The four million tons is converted to energy as per

367
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:28.400
equals mc square. If neutrons had a lower mass than protons,

368
00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:29.720
it would make.

369
00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:32.400
All perfect sense. But they don't.

370
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.039
They have a higher mass, so the mass of the

371
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.759
helium nucleus is higher than the mass.

372
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:39.440
Of the four protons.

373
00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:44.680
All the explanations I've read sound pretty dodgy, and my

374
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:48.319
account says he could never get away with such explanations

375
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:52.160
with the tax Department. Could you please explain the devil

376
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:53.599
in the detail that I'm missing?

377
00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:56.079
Thank you, Kenji.

378
00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:58.039
He did his homework on that one, didn't he.

379
00:22:58.359 --> 00:22:58.599
Wow.

380
00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:04.039
It's absolutely right too, and looks in such a terrible

381
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:11.960
part of the world, they Richie do or what I

382
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:12.480
don't think.

383
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:17.880
I think I think Ken's going to find this answer

384
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.839
that I'm going to give him pretty dodgy as well,

385
00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:27.319
because but it is the correct answer, because it turns

386
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:32.319
out that unlike Ken's accountant, who can do sort of

387
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:38.440
arithmetic because dollars don't change their mass, you know, randomly,

388
00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:45.359
you can't do the same with sub atomic particles because

389
00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.920
you have to look at other factors. And the factor

390
00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:51.119
that comes into being in this case, and I'm sure

391
00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:54.480
this is what Ken was referring to when he talked

392
00:23:54.519 --> 00:24:00.799
about dodgy answers is something called the binding energy. So

393
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:06.359
he's right that the helium four that's formed by the

394
00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:12.240
four hydrogen atoms should have slightly more in mass, should

395
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:19.880
have slightly more mass than the four hydrogen atoms. That's

396
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:25.759

Relativistic Beaming, Martian Waters & Cosmic Trash: The Space Nuts Q&A

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