March 16, 2025

Nebulae and Time - Unraveling Cosmic Mysteries: #504

Nebulae and Time - Unraveling Cosmic Mysteries: #504

In this Q&A episode of Space Nuts, host Andrew Dunkley and astronomer Fred Watson tackle intriguing questions from listeners about bright nebulae, the nature of light, and the mysteries of time. They discuss whether one could see the vibrant...

In this Q&A episode of Space Nuts, host Andrew Dunkley and astronomer Fred Watson tackle intriguing questions from listeners about bright nebulae, the nature of light, and the mysteries of time. They discuss whether one could see the vibrant colors of nebulae from within, delve into the implications of two arrows of time emerging from quantum systems, and explore the feasibility of life on moons orbiting brown dwarf stars. Join us for a fascinating journey through the cosmos as we unravel these cosmic queries!
Chapters:
(00:00) This is a Q and A edition of Space Nuts
(01:34) Dan from the Gold Coast asks about color effects of telescopes in nebula
(06:28) Stan Vanning: Which nebula is the brightest and most colorful
(09:38) New study suggests opposing arrows of time can theoretically emerge from certain quantum systems
(15:59) Andrew Dunkley with Professor Fred Watson discuss the arrows of time
(16:30) Andrew and Fred answer a question from Rusty in Donnybrook
(16:51) If moon was orbiting the sun without the Earth, they'd be stable
(18:57) Is the sun moon Lagrange point a good place for a habitat
(23:32) Martin Berman Gorvine has a question about brown dwarf stars
(26:49) Could Earth sized moon orbiting brown dwarf star sustain life as we know it
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WEBVTT

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Hi there, thanks for joining us yet again on another

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episode of Space Nuts. This is a Q and A edition.

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My name is Andrew Duncle, your host. Good to have

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your company. What we're going to tackle today is questions

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about bright nebulae. And that's a question that comes from

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Dan and it's probably not what you're thinking in terms

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of what he might be asking. He probably don't know

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what the heck he's asking at all, but we will

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tell you. Also, this one came through Instagram. Renee has

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sent us an article about light traveling in two directions?

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What's that about? Rusty has a three body problem? And

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Martin wants to talk about brown dwarf stars and he

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also wants to tell us a poem. It's always dangerous,

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but we're going to do it here on Space Nuts.

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Fifteen, Channel ten nine ignition Space Nuts NI or three

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two one Beast Nuts and actually bought it real good.

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He's back again for more. His name he's Professor fred

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what's an astronomer at Cello fred Ullo?

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Andrew, glad to be here.

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Good to have you here. Yeah. Is it funny how

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we always seem to wear the same shirts two episodes running?

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That works?

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Very strange phenomenon. Now we might as well get straight

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into it and tackle out first question, which comes from Dan.

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Hi, gentlemen, as Dan from the Gold Coast. I just

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wanted to know with some of the bright, kind of

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more colorful nebula, like the Karna helix outside that kind

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of stuff would being inside there, could you would you

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be able to actually see all those colors or like,

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you know, is it kind of like once you're in

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a you know, when.

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You're up high in the bog and that it's a

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little less noticeable.

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Is that what it's like in there? Or do we

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not really know what it would be like.

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Thanks for taking my question, love the show, and thanks

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for keeping me company my deliveries for work.

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There's go nice one. Thank you damn glad we can

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keep you company. Bright nebulae, when they're photographed, they look extraordinary.

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Some of the colors are amazing. But when you photograph

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Earth it's the same thing. But when you're down here

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you go the same into a nebulae or a nebula,

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I think you would see the colors actually, So you've

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got to imagine. First of all, you're not just sitting

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in the middle of the nebula. You probably in order

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to round a star on a you know, imagine it's

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on a planet that's around.

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The star in one of those nebulae. Now, the issue

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is this may not happen because there we know that

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those nebulae are associated with staff foaming regions, so they're

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young stars that are in them, and some of those

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young stars might be too young to have mature planets

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with intelligent life on it. But if there was intelligent

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life on the you know, the star of a or

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the planet of the star in a glowing nebula, I

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think you'd see the color. I think you would see

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a background and it would probably predominantly be pink because

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that's the color of excited hydrogen. What's exciting it is

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the ultraviolet light being given off by a nearby star.

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That ultraviolet light will be lethal.

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For us anyway, So I knew there'd be all of

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some kind.

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Yeah, you might, you might not see see it for

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very long, but yes, I think I think if your

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eye was in there, you would see the colors.

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That's interesting because.

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Maybe more subtly than what we seeing some of the photographs.

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But yeah, a lot of those photographs have to be enhanced,

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and you know, to bring out the detail I suppose,

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and those photographs have improved over time with technology, because

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some of the early photographs of like the horsehead Nebula

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were a bit fuzzy, but if you look at the

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latest crop of them, they are certainly high definition. Yeah,

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that's right.

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That's largely a result of bigger telescopes. I mean, it

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was my colleague and friend David Marlin, who lives not

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very far from here that they view. He was the

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person who first put colors into images and the stars

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using predominantly photographs, And there were photographs from the young

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Australian telescope and the UK Schmidt telescope.

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That's so.

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Then I came to Australia to work on so he

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and I was going to say, when you talked about

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enhancement things like that, he took extraordinary pains to make

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sure that the colors he were presenting he was presenting

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were what your unaided I would see if you had

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a much bigger telescope. He in fact, he was obsessive

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about it, the color balance, to the extent that he

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would get really upset if he went to give a

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talk about these things. And the video projector that was

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being used was not up to scratch. He'd be tinkering

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with the adjustments, trying to fix it before the talk,

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and so his images were a representation. Now, you're quite

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right that, you know, when those images came out in

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the nineteen seventies and eighties, they were mind blowing. Nobody

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had ever seen anything like them. But we now have

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images from much bigger telescopes. Well, we've got images from

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space telescopes which by definition don't have the the the

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you know, the blurring effect of the atmosphere in front

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of them. They're they're seeing perfect, perfect images unfettered by

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the atmosphere. And also from the ground, we're seeing from

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much bigger telescopes, now twice as big, and that also

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affects the definition. So yes, the current crop of images

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which we're getting from the Web telescope, the very large telescope,

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the Gemini telescopes, all of those, they are stunning. You're

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absolutely right.

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Okay, question with that, notice which nebula is the brightest

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and most colorful?

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Well, I think there are two very bright ones that

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the probably the one that everybody on Earth can see

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because it's right on the celestial equator, is the Orion nebula,

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and that's visible clearly with the naked eye, big gas

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cloud in the constellation of Orion right just below it's

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actually the handle of Orion's sword, that's where it is,

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or the handle of the sauce pan, depending on which

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way up you're looking at it. Yeah, and the other

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the lagoon nebulas very bright as well. That's one of

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the southern hemisphere nebulas in the Southern Milky Way.

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Okay, really good, Dan. If you would like to look

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at some of David Mayland's amazing photography, just do a

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web search for his name because pop up. And he

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was a real piney.

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Absolutely, yeah, very much so. And he was well highly regarded.

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He won many awards, including the sort of Nobel Prize

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of imaging, which is the Lennart Neilson Award. He yes see,

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it became very famous because of his images being so,

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you know, so widely distributed. They were sought after for

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record album covers and magazine covers and books and many

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very eminent astronomers today to to name, in fact, probably

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three name three Dame Jocelyn Belbanell, Brian Cox, Brian Schmidt.

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Credit David's David's photography for some of their interests. Actually,

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Joscelyn was already well into astronomy, but she's always had

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high praise for David's photography.

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I'm sure David would not be a fan of the

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cameras on an iPhone because I read an article today

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just to learn a bit more about how to use

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the camera on my phone, and I found out that

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because of the artificial intelligence that's brought into them, they

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do tend.

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To not.

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Produce what is really seen. I mean, to an unaided eye,

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it looks like the photo that you took. But the

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way the artificial intelligence works, it takes a very educated

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guess as to what you're photographing and filled in the blanks.

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And I thought that is weird. I mean, that's not

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how camera should work. But what's interesting about it is

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that they question whether or not some of the photos

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taken by iPhones would actually be legitimate evidence in court.

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Yeah, even though.

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The image is obviously what you took a photo of, Yes,

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it's not an image of the it's not the it's

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not it's not.

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A genuine representation of what the things look like.

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Yes, Yeah, it's quite incredible and a good question. And

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you know, keep on trucking or vanning or whatever it

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is you do.

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Space nuts.

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Now, our next question sort of came about by accident.

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I was just sort of meiling around on the interwebs

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over the weekend and I saw a little one and

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you know the little ones that are on your smart devices,

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and I thought, oh gosh, someone sent us a message

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through the spacepp Instagram page, which I very rarely look at,

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and it Renee High Renee and she said, I found

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this article. Maybe you guys can have a talk about it.

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That was the question. The article was about how physicists

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have uncovered evidence of two arrows of time emerging from

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the quantum realm. Now, this is getting into tricky science spread,

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but light is always an intriguing subject. So I thought

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we might ever talk about this one.

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Yeah, it's I mean, it's time we're talking about, not lie,

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it's actually time fluing.

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Oh sorry, I said, like time.

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Yeah, And so you know, we the conventional view is

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that there's an arrow of time that just goes one way,

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and it's linked with the second law of thermodynamics, which

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is all about entropy, which is the randomness or disorder

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that you find in a system. And all of that

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stuff gets mixed up. But we've i mean, proventual physics

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has believed that the arrow of time only goes one way.

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But this new paper, it's suggesting that in quantum, in

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the quantum world, there might be another one that you

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can basically, you know, follow time going in a different direction.

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It's going the other way, in other words, going from

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future to past.

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Work that one out. I'm struggling to understand the concept.

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I know there's been a lot of science fiction about

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time travel, and I know there's been experimentation.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, like as you said in the past, traveling through

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time would require more energy than there is in the universe.

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Yeah, that's right. So that's the time warp. That's right.

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That's yeah, the warping of it.

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But experiments into time into time have shown that movement

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does disrupt the time. Time continuable.

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Well, that's right, time sometimes flexible. We know that because

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of relativity tells us that either by things traveling very

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fast or putting it in a gravitational field that bends time.

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But this is something different, the arrows of time. I've

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got the University of Surrey, which is where this work

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has been done. I've got their press release in front

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of me, and I'm just going to read from that

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because it's a very succinct way of expressing it. A

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new study reveals that opposing arrows of time can theoretically

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emerge from certain quantum systems. And there's a quote from

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doctor Andrea Rocco, who's an associate professor in physics and

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mathematical biology the University of Surrey, Surrey, and it says,

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the quote is one way to explain this is when

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you look at a process like spilt milk spreading across

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a table, it's clear that time is moving forward. But

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if you want to play that in reverse like a movie,

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you'd immediately know something was wrong. It would be hard

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to believe milk could just gather back into a glass. However,

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there are processes, such as the motion of a pendulum,

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that look just as believable in reverse. The puzzle is

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that at the most fundamental level, the laws of physics

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resemble the pendulum. They do not account for irreversible processes.

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Our findings suggest that while our common experience tells us

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that time only moves one way, we are just unaware

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that the opposite direction would have been equally possible. Gosh.

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I mean, that's just hard to wrap your head around.

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Really.

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It gets harder when you look at actually what they've done,

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and it is all in the sub atomic world. You're

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talking about quantum systems and the way they interact with

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their environment. It's very interesting stuff, but it is quite

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you know, it's quite dense.

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I mean, the I know.

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So that there's another sentence if I may, from the

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University of Sorry press release this. Yeah, the system behaved

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in this is the something that's working on a theoretical

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you know, in a theoretical quantum environment, the system behaved

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the same way whether time moves forwards or backwards. And

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that's saying you know, it's like a pendulum, which can

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you don't notice the difference either way time moving either way.

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The discovery provided a mathematical foundation for the idea that

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time reversed symmetry still holds in open quantum systems, suggesting

238
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that time zarrow may not be as fixed as we experience.

239
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Wow. Of course there's a lot of work going on

240
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in the quantum realm every Yeah, because they're trying to

241
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crack the secrets of developing quantum computing. And if they

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do that, it's just going to change. It's just going

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to change everything that's right. That may come. The day

244
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may come where we have quantum computers in the home.

245
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I don't think it'll be soon, but you know, computers

246
00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:27.000
in households are so common now, whereas when I was

247
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a kid, the Cassio calculator was a new thing, and

248
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when you were a kid, the abbactus would have been. Yeah.

249
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The best thing I had was my slide drew. Yeah, yeah,

250
00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:42.600
I've got a soft spot for slide Riel's. Actually I

251
00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:45.440
just found one in a tip shop just a few

252
00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:48.600
days ago, which is a lovely little nine inch slid.

253
00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:51.879
Look at that in its own box. It's been the

254
00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:55.519
treasured possession of some engineer probably. It's a very nice

255
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little purchase.

256
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Wow, pick up in those little that's right.

257
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You know.

258
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Not much more we can say about this one, but

259
00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:10.799
thank you Renee for sort of bringing it to our attention.

260
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If you'd like to read up on the arrows of

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time not light time, Surrey dot ac dot UK is

262
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the site. This is space Nuts. Andrew Dunkley here with

263
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:32.039
Professor Fred. What's anace nuts? Okay, Fred, Let's move on

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to our next question with one of our regular collaborators,

265
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and that is Rusty.

266
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Gooday Fred and Andrew, Andrew and Fred, it's Rusty and

267
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Donnybrook mean, awhile at this time of the year, who

268
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knows where you two are.

269
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I'm sitting at home.

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I hope this finds you, and I hope it finds you.

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Well.

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Been looking at the three body problem of the Earth, Moon,

273
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and Sun. In terms of lagrange points in the Sun

274
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Moon sitt stem. The L one and L two points

275
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in that Sun moon system lie about twenty nine thousand

276
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kilometers from the center of the Moon, or about twenty

277
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seven thousand kilometers from the Moon's surface.

278
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If the Moon was or.

279
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Bring the Sun without the Earth, they'd be pretty stable.

280
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But the Moon goes around the Earth at about with

281
00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.039
an orbital speed of about one kilometer a second, and

282
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the two of them travel around the Sun at about

283
00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:38.480
thirty kilometers per second. So the impact on L two,

284
00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:45.079
for example, in the Sun moon system would be fairly slight,

285
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:50.559
and the impact of the Earth Moon L one and

286
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L two positions, which are about four thousand kilometers further

287
00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:00.559
out from the Moon, would be probably the biggest effect there.

288
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:04.200
They would have the distorting effect. The question is the

289
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:08.680
Sun moon l two point, perpetually shaded by the body

290
00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.880
of the Moon. Would that not be a great place

291
00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:19.359
to have a habitat? It would shelter, it'd be healing

292
00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:26.440
there from solar weather. And to build it lighter, say

293
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:30.079
fifty percent lighter, probably, Wouldn't that be a great place

294
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:35.279
to have a habitat. Anyway, Yeah, I'd love to hear

295
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.839
your comments on that one. And I've really been enjoying

296
00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:41.319
the show. I haven't had a chance to say anything. Cheers,

297
00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:43.720
Thanks Rusty. Nice to hear from you.

298
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:47.400
Yes, we're in the country together at the same time

299
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.880
for a change, but it's only for short only for

300
00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:54.640
a short while. I think I'm the next to make

301
00:18:55.000 --> 00:19:02.440
a sojourn overseas. Rusty's three Body Problem talks about the Earth,

302
00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:06.759
Moon and Sun lagrange points. Bottom line is is the

303
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:10.359
Sun moon lagrange point a good place for a habitat?

304
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:12.960
And the answer is no.

305
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:15.480
Oh gee, I thought it would go the other way.

306
00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:18.400
No, and it's and rust has already put his finger

307
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.839
on it. Those they don't really exist, those La Grange points,

308
00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:27.000
because they're completely unstable. The fact you know that you've

309
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:31.119
got the Earth right next door. If it was just

310
00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:34.160
the Sun and the Moon. Yes, that would all be great,

311
00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:37.400
or all would work. But you've got this massive object,

312
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.279
the Earth, eighty times the mass of the Moon, two

313
00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:45.200
hundred and fifty hundred and eighty thousand kilometers away, and

314
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:50.680
it basically just disrupts the Sun Moon lagrange points. So

315
00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:55.839
it's it's got really no stability worth speaking of, and

316
00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:58.519
so it wouldn't be a good place to try and

317
00:19:58.599 --> 00:19:59.559
put a spacecraft.

318
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.039
You do, in fact have, with the Sun, the Earth,

319
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:05.119
and the Moon, a three body problem.

320
00:20:05.559 --> 00:20:10.160
Uh you do, yes, that's right. It is a it's

321
00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:14.200
a three body problem, and the two the two absolutely

322
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:16.640
significant bodies in that are the Earth and the Sun.

323
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:22.319
The Moon. You know, it almost doesn't register. It's possible

324
00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:25.799
to define, to calculate where those lagrange points will be,

325
00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:29.599
but they're so unstable that there's no there's no point

326
00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:30.880
in trying to put something there.

327
00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:35.720
You'd constantly be having to move around to stay in

328
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:36.519
the right place.

329
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:42.160
I imagine, Uh, yeah, that's right, you burn all your fuel.

330
00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:48.720
Up unless you've got to win a bago. I mean, yeah, yeah,

331
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:51.559
that would that would work. They've made their wear into space.

332
00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.759
Although there are lagrange points that we've found very advantageous,

333
00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:00.400
and we've got a couple of observatories. Yeah, you get

334
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:02.359
around those points, that's right.

335
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:07.200
That's the the Sun Earth the grounds points where you're right,

336
00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:09.920
there's there's observatories that both L one and L two

337
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.079
l ones between the Sun and the Earth. L two

338
00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.359
is on the opposite side of the from the Sun

339
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:18.799
a million and a half kilometers away, and that's where

340
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:21.480
the Web telescope is, for example the Gaia spacecraft.

341
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:24.759
But again you're not staying still. They still have to maneuver.

342
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:25.920
Just that's right.

343
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:28.839
I send it. It's like a spiral movement from what

344
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:29.480
I can tell.

345
00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.759
Yeah, it's the kind of in orbit around the around

346
00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:37.200
the stable point. But it's not that stable. You know,

347
00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:39.759
if you if you get tipped off one way, you

348
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.799
could run away. So you do need to keep burning

349
00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:45.640
fuel to keep it in the right place. It's called

350
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.279
station keeping, and I think that's the everyday you know,

351
00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:52.920
the everyday job of some of these spacecraft drivers, if

352
00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:53.599
I can call them that.

353
00:21:55.039 --> 00:22:00.759
Yeah, okay, So ultimately with an object like James Web,

354
00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:02.160
the fuel is going to run out.

355
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:05.519
Yes, that's right, and that's actually what we'll limit the

356
00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:08.680
life of the Web telescope the fuel that will keep

357
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.240
it in the right place. I think they've got more

358
00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:14.319
than they're expected to have. When they launched it, they

359
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:16.440
thought they had a ten year life, but I think

360
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:18.599
they're now talking about more like twenty years. So that's

361
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:19.880
really good, wonderful.

362
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:24.119
Although in twenty in the twenty year life span of

363
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:27.640
James Web, the technology is probably going to jump even more. Yes,

364
00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:31.359
there'll be telescopes that will be far more superior, which

365
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:35.000
is what happened Hubble basically yep, although it's still doing

366
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:44.960
a fantastic job. So Rusty's answer is no, no go unfortunately,

367
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:48.079
although I'm sure the day will come with I'll put

368
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:51.880
a habitat out there somewhere and or a space station

369
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:55.400
of some kind and I think Earth all but would

370
00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:57.920
be the logical way to go at this point, wouldn't

371
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:00.960
you say? Yes?

372
00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:03.880
Sorry? Do you mean around the moon? Moon orbit?

373
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:05.799
Yeah, moon orbit, Yeah, that's right.

374
00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:10.039
Well, the parts of the Artemis deal is to have

375
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:12.960
the Gateway spacecraft, which is exactly that, it's a mini

376
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:15.160
space stationd in Ubus around the Moon. I don't know

377
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:16.920
whether it's ever going to happen, but that's certainly in

378
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:17.400
the planning.

379
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:21.799
Yeah, no, no, no, all right, thanks Rusty. As always

380
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:27.240
deep thought type questions coming from you. Speaking of deep thought,

381
00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:30.599
next and final question comes from Martin.

382
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:40.519
Hello space Nuts, Martin Berman. Gorvine here, writer extraordinaire in

383
00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:49.519
many genres, recording this in Potomac, Maryland, USA, although by

384
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:55.960
the time you broadcast it, I may well have joined

385
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:02.200
you down under because I do not wish to live

386
00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:09.960
under the possible rain of the orange nero. So I

387
00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:15.400
have a question about the brown dwarf stars that you

388
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:25.519
blokes were discussing. See how I said, blokes, Ah, could

389
00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:34.000
there be in theory an earth sized moon of such

390
00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:40.480
a brown dwarf star circling in orbiting it in a

391
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:47.960
possible goldilot zone, And would it then be possible for

392
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:53.480
this world to support earth like life as we know it?

393
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:58.960
If the answer be yes, what would the brown dwarf

394
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:06.640
star look like in its sky? And I have written

395
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:14.240
a poem about this possibility, inspired by doctor Fred Watson

396
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:23.799
and mister Robbie burns Hem. All that I know of

397
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:28.839
a brown dwarf star is it can glow, but not

398
00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:33.440
very far. Now at dart of bronze, now at dart

399
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:38.920
of tan, behold its long fronds, The color of brand

400
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:44.599
my star that dartles the bronze and the tan. No,

401
00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.559
it's not like a turd. It had fun and world

402
00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:53.680
busy fusing away like the stars all above it. What

403
00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:58.480
is circling it is a Goldilocks world. What a strange,

404
00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:03.400
lovely thought. I really do love it. And you can

405
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.039
send uh, thank you, thank you. You can send the

406
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:12.000
royalties for that to me either in Potomac if the

407
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:16.279
Orange Nero has not returned, or maybe in Dubbo if

408
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:22.720
he has berman gorvine over and out out.

409
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:26.680
That is priceless, absolutely priceless, Martin, Thank you. I know

410
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:28.400
it's taken me a little while to get to that one,

411
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:34.200
because apparently the Orange Nero is alive and kicking.

412
00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:36.440
So you might look out for Martin on the streets

413
00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:36.839
of Dubbo.

414
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:40.599
Yes, yes, I'll chip an eye out for him. And

415
00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:45.599
you're more than welcome Martin anytime, anytime. I love that pole.

416
00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:51.400
That was brilliant, very very good. So the earth sized

417
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:58.720
moon orbiting a brown dwarf star in the Goldilocks zone,

418
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:01.960
could it's sustained life as we know it?

419
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:08.400
Well, it wouldn't be as we know it because the

420
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:11.640
peak energy output of a brown dwarf star is well

421
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:16.680
into the infrared. Ah, they've got a low surface temperature.

422
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:21.039
I'm just trying to think whether they even have a

423
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:24.880
Goldilock zone. I guess they must do, but it might

424
00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:27.000
be very close to the surface of the brown dwarf

425
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:32.880
because they glow just by, you know, by their internal

426
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:38.319
low level nuclear reactions. So just let's think about so

427
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:48.319
if I imagine the you know, thinking about warm bodies

428
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:54.480
like us, we radiate at ten microns in the infrared.

429
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:57.119
That's the wavelength that we emit in the infrared because

430
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:01.200
of our natural heat. And I don't think brown dwarfs

431
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:03.319
are that far away. They're probably a bit warmer than that.

432
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:07.880
They're probably more, you know, rather warmer than whatever it

433
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:11.480
is thirty thirty seven degrees celsius that we we have

434
00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:18.960
to be. So would there be a Goldilocks So I

435
00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:23.279
need to check on that whether you're now okay, good, Yeah.

436
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:27.599
Apparently you can calculate it. So it does have a

437
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:31.400
Goldilocks zone, although it does there's one article I'm reading

438
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.799
that says that the first ten million years of a

439
00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:38.920
brown dwarf might have a temperature close to three thousand kilp.

440
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:42.119
Then reasonable habitable zone to go with.

441
00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:42.519
Who.

442
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:47.599
Yeah, but look, I haven't got anything inhabited.

443
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:51.559
Yeah, that's a young brown dwarf. So old brown dwarfs

444
00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:56.839
you probably forget it. Yeah, habitable zone is on the surface.

445
00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:00.279
They do have weather, the brown dwarf stars. Yeah. Yeah.

446
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:05.279
One of my colleagues, Christini, before it became an expert

447
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:08.079
on the extra sol planets, used to study brown dwarfs,

448
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:10.720
and I think one of his papers was about the

449
00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:12.000
weather on brown dwarfs.

450
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:16.759
Okay, you know, well, there's a graph there that gives

451
00:29:16.759 --> 00:29:19.799
me an indicator of a habitable zone around a brown dwarf.

452
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:23.200
But I don't understand it. It's got all these ten

453
00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:25.240
to the fifth, ten to the sixth numbers.

454
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.680
I'd better have a look at that.

455
00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:31.519
Yeah. Yeah, but I suppose the answer is, yes, there's

456
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:35.359
a habitable zone under certain circumstances in the early life

457
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:37.880
of a brown dwarf. But yeah, how do you predict

458
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:39.599
what kind of life could be?

459
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:46.160
Yeah, certainly, you know, we're very tuned to the wavelength

460
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:51.319
submitted by the Sun, where sort of our vision is

461
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:57.559
predicated around visible light, picking the green region of the spectrum.

462
00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:01.680
I guess a creature could evolve with infrared sensitive eyes.

463
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:05.839
That's not out of a question. It's not impossible wood.

464
00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:08.839
Have what do rattlesnakes?

465
00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:11.279
Yeah, yes, there you go.

466
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:12.759
And so.

467
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:17.039
But would it be life as we know it? Well,

468
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:19.400
it might be rattle snakes, Yeah.

469
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:22.480
Could be. It's hard to know. But and as we've

470
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:25.759
talked about it in the past about how different stars

471
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:32.640
would create different kinds of habitat, Like the vegetation would

472
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:35.839
be very different. If let's say you had a planet

473
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:40.480
round I don't know, a very big, bright blue star,

474
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:45.559
everything would be different as life as we know it

475
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:47.559
would not look like that. If you went into a

476
00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:49.880
forest on a planet round a star like that, it

477
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:55.599
would be a completely different kettle of leaves would yeah,

478
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:58.640
not leaves. All the colors would be different, All the

479
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:05.200
variations would be different because life would have to adapt

480
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:10.839
to a completely different light pattern and heat pattern and

481
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.720
everything else, radiation, et cetera. So, yeah, it's a bit

482
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:17.079
of an unknown Martin as to what kind of life

483
00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:21.480
would exist on a moon sized planet orbiting a brown

484
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:25.200
dwarf star. But if it was possible, it would not

485
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:27.920
be life as we know it. I think that was

486
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:29.680
the basis of your question. So I think we can

487
00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.720
give you a no on that one, but not a

488
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:35.720
no on life of some other kind.

489
00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:39.799
Not as we know it, not if we know it.

490
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.240
James T. Kirk would probably say that to it's life Jim,

491
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:45.920
but not as we know it. No, that wasn't Jim,

492
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:51.119
that was doctor thing. No.

493
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:55.400
Oh, bones, bone bone, not.

494
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:58.400
As we know it. Thanks Martin, loved the poem you

495
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:02.440
were to publish that. That was hilarious and we are done.

496
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:04.559
Don't forget to send your questions into us via our

497
00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:07.359
website because we love to get them and we're always

498
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:10.079
looking for more. And you can do that at spacenuts

499
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.720
dot io and just click on that little ama thing

500
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:17.079
at the top, which is where you send you questions

501
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:20.559
in audio or text format. And don't forget to tell

502
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:22.039
us who you are and where you're from, and have

503
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:24.519
a look around while you're there. Visit the space Nuts shop.

504
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:28.839
It's always fun, plenty of things to grab hold of.

505
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:31.680
If somebody special is having a birthday soon, you might

506
00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:33.839
want to pick up a little do Dad for them

507
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:37.000
who knows. And thanks as always, Fred. It's been a

508
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:37.799
great pleasure.

509
00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:41.559
Good to talk Andrew, and look forward to doing it again.

510
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:45.599
Very good. We'll see you soon. Professor Fred Watson, Astronomer

511
00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:47.759
at Large. And thanks to Hue in the studio because

512
00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:51.119
he's always helpful, except today when he couldn't be with

513
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:55.200
us because he was out babysitting his brown dwarf. And

514
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:57.920
from me Andrew Dunkley, thanks for your company. We'll catch

515
00:32:57.960 --> 00:32:59.680
you on the very next episode of Space Nuts and

516
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:04.680
then bye bye. You'll be listening to the Space Nuts

517
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:12.079
podcast available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or your favorite

518
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:15.440
podcast player. You can also stream on demand at bites

519
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:19.400
dot com. This has been another quality podcast production from

520
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.200
nights dot com.
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