Lunar Landings, Asteroid Adventures & Andromeda Mysteries: #501

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Andrew Dunkley: Hello again. Thanks for joining us. This is

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Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunkley. Thanks

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for joining us. Coming up on this episode, we

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are going to be looking at a rather amazing

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achievement involving a. An

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organization who have landed on the moon. And

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you're saying, yeah, it's been done. Not like

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this, it hasn't. On top of that, we've got

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a mission that's going past the moon that

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is in a little bit of trouble as well. We'll

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also focus our attention on the Andromeda

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galaxy. And we've had some questions recently

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about Andromeda. Well, uh, you be interested

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to know that it has been

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suffering from interference and it wasn't us.

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It wasn't. We didn't do it. And Voyager

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1 back in the news again. That's all coming

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up on this episode of space nuts.

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Voice Over Guy: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start. Space nuts. 5, 4, 3,

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2. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,

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3, 2, 1. Space nuts. Astronauts

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report it feels good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And he's back in the big chair after a month

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away. It's Professor Fred Watson, Astronomer

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at large. Hello, Fred.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. Good to be back. Uh, so

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the politicians always say, good to be with

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you.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, they do, don't they?

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Professor Fred Watson: Good to be with you.

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Andrew Dunkley: I'm sure they sit there with, um, with

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consultants and committees. The right way to

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say hello.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. And the answer

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is. Good to be with you.

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Andrew Dunkley: Good to be with you.

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Um, now, we talked on the last

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episode or two, um, when you

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popped in on us, um, about your trip

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north. One thing I wondered

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is, while you were there to look at the

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aurora borealis and the like,

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um, on an astronomy tour, did you actually

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get to see, uh, the planetary

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alignment? Or couldn't you view it from that

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far north?

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, we could, but, uh,

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you're right, it's a good question because

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the ecliptic, which is where all the planets

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lie, uh, just like the equator, the

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celestial equator is very low down at the

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latitudes we were at. The furthest north we

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got was to north cape, which is 71 degrees

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latitude. Um, a lot of the time we're in

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Greenland. Iceland's a little bit further

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south. It's only the top, really. The north

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coast of Iceland, that's within the Arctic

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Circle. But we're also, well, in the Arctic

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Circle in Sweden and Norway. North Cape, of

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course, is in Norway. Uh, so, yes, your view

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of the sky is different. Um,

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what? Always. And I remember being struck by

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this in my very, very first visit

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to the Arctic, which was back in 2012 when we

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led our first expedition up there.

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Uh, and I was struck by the fact that I

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could see stars which

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from our latitude in. And I'm

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still thinking of the northern hemisphere

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from the latitude of the United Kingdom, were

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only visible in the summertime and we were

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there in the middle of winter. So you can

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see, um, at least two stars of something

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called the summer triangle. The summer

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triangle is Vega, Altair, and

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the brightest star in Cygnus, which is,

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um, Deneb. Deneb. Vega

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and Altair. Vega and Deneb were very,

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very visible, uh, in

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midwinter, uh, near the north pole

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because the pole of the sky

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is tilted upwards so you can see things that

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from kind of middle latitudes you'd only see

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in summer. Uh, so what it meant was. Yes,

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your question is well made. Uh, we certainly

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saw Venus, Jupiter and Mars very

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clearly, probably Saturn, although it was

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quite near the horizon then. And I don't

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think we got a glimpse of Mercury. So that

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parade of planets that really, uh, occupied

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the media, uh, for us in the southern

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hemisphere, it was actually best back in

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January.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it's, uh, it's only in the north that

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it's been a hot topic within the last few

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days.

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Andrew Dunkley: The reason I ask is it's been in the news

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again because they said that, uh, well,

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the popular press is saying, oh, you know,

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the big alignment first time. Yeah, last time

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we'll see it in 60 years, blah, blah. Um,

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Jonti has a particular problem with the way

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the media.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Spews this kind of information out and,

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you know, don't let the truth get in the way

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of good story type of attitude.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

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Andrew Dunkley: Um, but it was,

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uh, apparently it was the whole set

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at the end of February because Mercury was

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part of the deal then.

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Professor Fred Watson: From the Northern hemisphere.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Well, there you go. And um,

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Yeah, I was just wondering if you got a

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chance to spot it.

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Professor Fred Watson: But, uh, no, didn't see Mercury.

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Andrew Dunkley: No, I didn't see any of it much.

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Professor Fred Watson: Okay.

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Andrew Dunkley: I did go out and look, but where I am in

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town, it's. It's a really bad position and

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I'd have to, uh, go out and find a hill and

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as you know, there are not that many of them

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around here.

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Professor Fred Watson: No, no. You're a bit, uh, a bit low on hills

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up there. You need somebody to come and build

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one for you.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. Or just cut all the trees

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down and.

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, is that too. But that's not a good idea.

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Andrew Dunkley: No, not really.

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Professor Fred Watson: No.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay.

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All right. Uh, let's get onto Our first

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official story and this one is very

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exciting and again getting a lot of

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press and that's been the successful landing

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of the Blue Ghost Lunar

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lander on the moon. Uh, this

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is a lot different to what we were

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witnessing in the 60s and 70s and a

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few of the more recent missions because they

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were um, publicly

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funded and um, government gazetted and all

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that jazz. This is a completely different

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kettle of.

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Professor Fred Watson: Fish indeed because it

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is a commercial spaceflight, it's a

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commercial company, uh, with the lovely name

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of Firefly Aerospace. Uh, their Blue

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Ghost lander is named after a rare species

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of Firefly, uh, which is found in the

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Appalachian area of the United States.

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I uh, love the name of the mission. It's not

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Apollo or Artemis or anything. It's called

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Ghost Riders in the Sky.

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Andrew Dunkley: I love it.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, and we did see, uh, earlier in the week

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before the spacecraft landed successfully,

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which it did on uh, March 2, uh,

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Eastern Standard Time, Sunday

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at the weekend. The weekend just gone. Uh, we

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did see some images during the week from the

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navigation cameras which uh, showed the Earth

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and the moon as uh, the lander flew

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by. But the reason why this lander is going

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to the moon or has gone to the moon is that

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it's part of uh, something you and I have

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Talked about, Andrew. NASA's Commercial Lunar

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Payload Services program,

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CLPS Commercial Commercial Lunar

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Payload, uh, which basically is NASA

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contracting to private companies,

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uh, for payloads to go to the

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lunar surface, uh, either experiments

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or um, you know, I suppose they, they're

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all experiments or at least uh, things that

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test the technology, uh, uh,

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basically to check things out before the

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Artemis mission really gets underway with

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a lunar landing. We hope that

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Artemis will see humans walking on the

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moon. 2027 I

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think is the current date. Uh, but

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that could change because all sorts of things

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are happening, uh, inside NASA, which we

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really didn't expect. Um, anyway, uh,

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the Launch was on the 15th of January, so

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it's taken a little while to get there.

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It uh,

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um, the spacecraft rode into orbit on a

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Falcon 9, a SpaceX Falcon 9, uh,

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and essentially uh, having gone into

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lunar orbit, uh, earlier in February,

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13th of February, it was

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descended or sent, um, a

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command to descend to the lunar

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surface on the 1st of March and successfully

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touched down on the 2nd. So really great

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stuff. Fantastic news that a, uh,

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commercial spaceflight has landed

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successfully on the moon.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, it is marvelous and

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um, it's a very short mission though, isn't

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it? They're not going to be doing much for

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long from what I understand.

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Professor Fred Watson: I think that's Right. I think the, the, you

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know, the essential part was just

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demonstrating that they can get there.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, which they've now done very

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successfully. Um, it's, uh,

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it's. I think it's, uh,

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as you said, it's a short mission. Uh, I

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think it's one of these things that will only

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last for a lunar day. I need to check that.

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But it's that sort of time.

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Uh, it's easy to find some really nice

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pictures of, uh, what

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the sky would look like for Blue

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Ghost. Uh, there's a very nice picture on

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X of a gentleman by the name of

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Buzz Aldrin watching the landing. Yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. He sent them a message of

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congratulations.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes. Yeah. Uh, which is great. And, you

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know, who better to send a

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congratulations to a, um, like

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that than Buzz Aldrin, the second man to walk

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on the moon.

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Andrew Dunkley: Absolutely. Yes. And I, uh, think I've

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mentioned before I've had the great pleasure

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of meeting and interviewing him in my radio

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career. So that was one of the big highlights

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for me.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, and one of the highlights for me was

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having dinner with him.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, uh, that's even better. Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it was really interesting. We'll talk

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about that some of the time. It was a very

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interesting meeting, but it was very

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stimulating. This is probably a decade ago.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Great.

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Professor Fred Watson: Great company, as you know.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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I, I notice, uh, in one of the stories, I

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think it's in sky and telescope,

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uh.org they they refer to

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the, uh, descent orbit insertion

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as nine minutes of terror.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: But we've talked about these terrifying

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landings on other worlds, particularly

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Mars. I wouldn't have thought that it would

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be as big a deal on the moon, given that

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this, you know, no atmosphere of.

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Professor Fred Watson: You're right. Yeah. And you're

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absolutely right because, um, you know, if

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you're landing on Mars, a lot of the, uh,

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trajectory is dictated not just by, uh,

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orbital mechanics, which is how things work

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in space, but dictated by the vagaries of

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the atmosphere. If you've got slightly higher

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pressure than you expected, you've got more

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braking force, and suddenly, uh, your

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spacecraft is heading for a different part of

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the surface at a higher speed than you would

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want or lower speed or whatever. Um, and

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you're right that, um, in the case of the

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Moon, it's all about orbital mechanics, which

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are very, very predictable. But you can

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imagine, you know, you've got to fire those

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thrusters at just the right moment to break

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it so that when it lands on the moon, it

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doesn't land too hard and smash up on the

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rocks or basically bounce off and then

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smash up. You've got to get things just

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right. So nine minutes of terror. I can

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sympathize with that. I think I'd feel like

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that too.

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Andrew Dunkley: Well, when you're talking about breaking from

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3,800 miles an hour to 90 miles an

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hour. Yes, that, that would be,

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that would be terrifying if, um, you know,

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you push the wrong button.

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And I think I had to smile when I read

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the story because they, they said successful,

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uh, landing and upright.

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So I think, I think they were

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sort of saying, well, you know, even if it

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lands on its side, that's a success. But it's

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even better that it's standing.

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Professor Fred Watson: It was last year, wasn't it, that one of the

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spacecraft did land on its side? That's

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right.

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Andrew Dunkley: I think it was the Indian mission.

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Professor Fred Watson: Was it, Was it Indian or Japanese? I can't

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remember. Um, but yeah. So it was landed in

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such a way that the solar panels weren't

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seeing the sun.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, that's right.

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Professor Fred Watson: So, yes, it's very important to have it the

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right way up.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Anyway, we wish them well. It'll be a

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quick visit and it

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paves the way for Artemis too. We still don't

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know when that's going to happen. Seems to be

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getting pushed back time and time again. But

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they will get there eventually.

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Professor Fred Watson: I'm sure they will.

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Andrew Dunkley: One will hope.

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Generic: Roger, you're allowed to start here also

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space nuts.

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Andrew Dunkley: Now, while we're talking about these kinds

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of, uh, commercial missions, there's another

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one that's in the news. This is a private

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mission, uh, that was heading out past

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the moon to the Odin asteroid, the

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um, private Odin asteroid probe.

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All was looking nominal

324
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until recently. Things seem to have gone

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awry somewhat.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, the uh, the comment

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that perhaps highlights the situation comes

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from, uh, uh, somebody by the name of

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Matthew Gialish, I think it is, who is the co

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founder and CEO of AstroDailyPod Forge, which

331
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is the, um, the organization that

332
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is operating the Odin

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spacecraft. Uh, what he said

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on Friday, uh, the 28th of February

335
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was we don't fully understand the state of

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the vehicle. Uh, it's

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thought still though, to be in a mode that

338
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means it's not being fried by the light of

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the sun. It's in an attitude

340
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in regard to the sun

341
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that will not have

342
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parts of it being unduly heated, although,

343
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uh, we believe that it is tumbling.

344
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Um, and uh, you know, uh, this is

345
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not a good thing for a spacecraft, um,

346
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uh, to experience.

347
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That's one of two alternatives which I think

348
00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:37.272
are still valid, Andrew. One is that the

349
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spacecraft is tumbling, uh, which is not

350
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nice, uh, or the other is that everything's

351
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fine, but there are issues with the telemetry

352
00:13:45.032 --> 00:13:46.952
back on Earth, their ground receivers not

353
00:13:46.976 --> 00:13:49.752
being properly configured or whatever. So

354
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they're still basically worrying about

355
00:13:52.050 --> 00:13:54.410
what's. What's going on. We should check that

356
00:13:54.450 --> 00:13:56.314
story again, perhaps next week.

357
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Andrew Dunkley: What's the goal of the mission? They're going

358
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to visit an asteroid. But what do they want

359
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to do with it?

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Professor Fred Watson: Basically check it out, uh, to

361
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send imagery, uh, of,

362
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uh, an asteroid which rejoices in the name of

363
00:14:09.810 --> 00:14:12.590
2022 OB5. Uh,

364
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and, um, it's a

365
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possible first step

366
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in basically

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recovering resources from a space

368
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object. In other words, asteroid mining. Wow.

369
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So if this mission was successful, and

370
00:14:29.304 --> 00:14:31.072
we're not sure that that's the case at the

371
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moment, um, this mission is

372
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basically designed to focus,

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uh, the cameras, uh, on

374
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that asteroid 2022 OB5,

375
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in order to get a

376
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survey of the surface, see what's there, take

377
00:14:48.410 --> 00:14:51.282
lots of images, use, um, the filters in the

378
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cameras to get some idea of the surface

379
00:14:54.002 --> 00:14:55.682
texture and things of that sort, which you

380
00:14:55.706 --> 00:14:57.954
can do, particularly in the infrared wave

381
00:14:58.002 --> 00:15:00.946
band. But that's a precursor, uh, to a second

382
00:15:01.018 --> 00:15:03.122
mission. This mission's called odin. The

383
00:15:03.146 --> 00:15:05.586
second mission is called Vestri, which will

384
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aim to land on the asteroid. So that's

385
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perhaps the more ambitious one that we

386
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will be looking at down the track. Assuming

387
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that Odin, uh, pulls it off or Space

388
00:15:16.454 --> 00:15:18.286
Forge pulls it off, as far as odin's

389
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concerned.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, uh, well, fingers crossed. Um,

391
00:15:22.950 --> 00:15:25.710
I think this quote from Matt Gillick,

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uh, who you quoted earlier, says it

393
00:15:28.566 --> 00:15:31.134
all. I think we all know the hope is fading

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as we continue the mission.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, um, I mean, it's what

396
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we've always said. Space is hard.

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Andrew Dunkley: It's tough out there. Yeah, yeah, it's, uh,

398
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it's a difficult gig. But they keep on

399
00:15:43.130 --> 00:15:45.586
trying. And, uh, you know, not all missions

400
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are absolute failures. Even when they don't

401
00:15:47.698 --> 00:15:50.370
go well, there's something to learn, and

402
00:15:50.410 --> 00:15:51.506
there's always something to learn.

403
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Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

404
00:15:51.930 --> 00:15:54.338
Andrew Dunkley: It's better next time. Yes, indeed.

405
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And you, uh, can read about that story if you

406
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like@spare.com. this is

407
00:16:00.154 --> 00:16:02.546
Space Nets with Andrew Dunkley and Professor

408
00:16:02.578 --> 00:16:03.670
Fred Watson.

409
00:16:05.530 --> 00:16:07.938
Okay, we checked all four systems and team

410
00:16:07.994 --> 00:16:09.306
with a Go Space Net.

411
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Okay, Fred, let's, uh, head towards

412
00:16:11.754 --> 00:16:13.914
Andromeda. Or is it heading towards us?

413
00:16:14.002 --> 00:16:16.698
Either way, uh, we. We've

414
00:16:16.714 --> 00:16:19.610
had a few questions recently with Jonti about

415
00:16:19.650 --> 00:16:22.554
Andromeda, and he was, um. Yeah, uh, he had a

416
00:16:22.562 --> 00:16:25.130
lot to say about it. Uh, and one of the

417
00:16:25.170 --> 00:16:27.930
questions we got recently was is the

418
00:16:27.970 --> 00:16:30.714
Milky Way already affecting

419
00:16:30.842 --> 00:16:33.610
Andromeda? And you know, to

420
00:16:33.650 --> 00:16:36.442
a certain degree, not a massive amount. The

421
00:16:36.466 --> 00:16:39.130
answer is yes, according to Jonti. Uh,

422
00:16:39.130 --> 00:16:42.062
but uh, we don't have to do that because it's

423
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now been discovered that Andromeda's um,

424
00:16:44.510 --> 00:16:46.890
being picked on by some little

425
00:16:47.590 --> 00:16:49.610
cousins nearby. It's already

426
00:16:49.990 --> 00:16:52.942
getting ah, a bit of a dust up, so to

427
00:16:52.966 --> 00:16:53.570
speak.

428
00:16:54.230 --> 00:16:56.862
Professor Fred Watson: It may. Yeah. So this may be the

429
00:16:56.886 --> 00:16:59.710
results of something bigger, something

430
00:16:59.750 --> 00:17:02.010
that we probably need to know about as well.

431
00:17:02.270 --> 00:17:05.134
Um, the bottom

432
00:17:05.182 --> 00:17:07.650
line here is you're quite right. Uh,

433
00:17:08.420 --> 00:17:11.292
the Andromeda galaxy, we can see, we see

434
00:17:11.316 --> 00:17:13.036
it in the constellation of Andromeda,

435
00:17:13.068 --> 00:17:15.948
obviously, uh, at a distance of about 2 1/2

436
00:17:16.004 --> 00:17:18.860
million light years, uh, like the

437
00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:21.436
Earth. Sorry, let me

438
00:17:21.588 --> 00:17:24.200
rephrase that. Like the Milky Way,

439
00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:27.804
our own galaxy, um, it's surrounded

440
00:17:27.852 --> 00:17:30.092
by a uh, swarm of dwarf

441
00:17:30.156 --> 00:17:32.732
galaxies. In fact about

442
00:17:32.916 --> 00:17:35.200
three or four dozen of them altogether.

443
00:17:35.470 --> 00:17:37.830
Um, it's uh, it is,

444
00:17:37.870 --> 00:17:40.762
uh, those dwarf galaxies, we call

445
00:17:40.786 --> 00:17:42.442
them satellite galaxies because they are

446
00:17:42.466 --> 00:17:45.258
satellites of Andromeda, uh, have

447
00:17:45.314 --> 00:17:48.234
been analyzed to death, uh, in a,

448
00:17:48.322 --> 00:17:51.082
in you know, some new research that's been

449
00:17:51.106 --> 00:17:53.299
carried out using the Hubble Space TeleScope

450
00:17:53.416 --> 00:17:56.250
still, after 35 years, still doing

451
00:17:56.290 --> 00:17:59.258
a very, very fine job in giving us

452
00:17:59.394 --> 00:18:02.272
spectra and images of distant objects.

453
00:18:02.336 --> 00:18:05.216
So uh, the researchers have used the Hubble,

454
00:18:05.230 --> 00:18:08.176
uh, essentially to map the motion

455
00:18:08.208 --> 00:18:10.192
of these dwarf galaxies, which is an

456
00:18:10.216 --> 00:18:12.630
extraordinary thing to be able to do, um,

457
00:18:12.630 --> 00:18:14.620
and look at their

458
00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.340
position in three dimensions around the

459
00:18:18.340 --> 00:18:20.960
uh, Andromeda galaxy. Uh,

460
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.320
and it's comparing uh,

461
00:18:24.080 --> 00:18:26.960
what they found with what we know from

462
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.232
the dwarf galaxies that orbit our own. And

463
00:18:29.256 --> 00:18:31.540
it's is probably a similar sort of number.

464
00:18:31.580 --> 00:18:33.980
It's about two dozen, I think, satellite uh,

465
00:18:34.468 --> 00:18:36.164
galaxies that we have. The biggest two are

466
00:18:36.172 --> 00:18:38.860
the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds. Uh,

467
00:18:38.860 --> 00:18:41.320
so you take all that, um,

468
00:18:41.760 --> 00:18:43.716
uh, you build a map of where these galaxies

469
00:18:43.748 --> 00:18:45.972
are around Andromeda and you find that

470
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they're in quite different orientations

471
00:18:48.644 --> 00:18:51.540
from what we find in our own

472
00:18:51.580 --> 00:18:54.452
galaxy. Um, uh, one

473
00:18:54.476 --> 00:18:57.230
of the comments, uh, in

474
00:18:57.270 --> 00:18:59.838
this story, uh, and this is uh, coming

475
00:18:59.894 --> 00:19:02.460
from uh, some of the researchers in fact, uh,

476
00:19:02.678 --> 00:19:05.422
Daniel Weiss of the University of

477
00:19:05.446 --> 00:19:08.260
California at Berkeley, uh,

478
00:19:08.310 --> 00:19:10.942
has basically pointed out

479
00:19:11.126 --> 00:19:14.110
that something significant has happened to

480
00:19:14.150 --> 00:19:16.830
Andromeda to change the

481
00:19:16.870 --> 00:19:19.650
distribution of the satellite galaxies.

482
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.680
Um, because half of them, uh,

483
00:19:22.710 --> 00:19:25.520
rather than sort of swarming around, uh,

484
00:19:25.520 --> 00:19:28.350
like you know, moths around a flame, half

485
00:19:28.390 --> 00:19:31.090
of these galaxies are actually in a plane.

486
00:19:31.300 --> 00:19:33.470
Uh, you know, they're

487
00:19:33.630 --> 00:19:36.414
basically in, in one plane. Of

488
00:19:36.502 --> 00:19:39.294
the space around, uh, around Andromeda, and

489
00:19:39.302 --> 00:19:41.598
they're all going in the same direction. And

490
00:19:41.654 --> 00:19:44.302
that is, uh, as, um, as

491
00:19:44.326 --> 00:19:46.770
Daniel Weiss says, that is weird.

492
00:19:47.060 --> 00:19:49.766
Um, he says it was actually a total

493
00:19:49.838 --> 00:19:51.702
surprise to find the satellites in that

494
00:19:51.726 --> 00:19:53.446
configuration. And we still don't fully

495
00:19:53.478 --> 00:19:56.210
understand why they appear that way.

496
00:19:56.750 --> 00:19:59.330
Another colleague, uh, says,

497
00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:01.782
um, this uh, is Alessandro

498
00:20:01.846 --> 00:20:04.838
Savino, says it is clear,

499
00:20:04.974 --> 00:20:07.734
it's a clear indication of how small galaxy

500
00:20:07.782 --> 00:20:10.742
growth is disturbed by the influence of

501
00:20:10.766 --> 00:20:13.290
a massive galaxy like Andromeda.

502
00:20:13.510 --> 00:20:16.446
Um, and I think the, the bottom

503
00:20:16.478 --> 00:20:19.410
line here is that they've got much, um,

504
00:20:20.134 --> 00:20:22.910
younger, uh, stars in them.

505
00:20:22.950 --> 00:20:25.758
These dwarf galaxies, uh, form

506
00:20:25.814 --> 00:20:28.334
their stars very early on in the history of

507
00:20:28.342 --> 00:20:29.918
the Andromeda galaxy, which probably goes

508
00:20:29.934 --> 00:20:32.862
back 12 or 13 billion years, um, and

509
00:20:32.886 --> 00:20:35.870
then kept on. And uh, the

510
00:20:35.990 --> 00:20:38.650
idea is that the,

511
00:20:39.430 --> 00:20:42.280
the perhaps. And they say that they

512
00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:44.200
really don't know what's happening, but

513
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:46.664
perhaps there was a collision between

514
00:20:46.752 --> 00:20:49.740
Andromeda and another galaxy,

515
00:20:49.870 --> 00:20:52.408
uh, some billions of years ago, which

516
00:20:52.464 --> 00:20:55.048
caused this peculiarity

517
00:20:55.224 --> 00:20:58.024
of the, uh, of the, of the dwarf galaxies

518
00:20:58.072 --> 00:21:00.920
surrounding Andromeda. Everything about it is

519
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.832
weird, including my, um, my account of it.

520
00:21:03.856 --> 00:21:04.420
Andrew Dunkley: Just

521
00:21:06.210 --> 00:21:08.832
uh. So they're saying it's weird. They say

522
00:21:08.856 --> 00:21:11.152
they don't really know what happened, but it

523
00:21:11.176 --> 00:21:14.144
would have to be some kind of gravitational

524
00:21:14.272 --> 00:21:16.096
effect or interference, wouldn't it?

525
00:21:16.168 --> 00:21:18.224
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I

526
00:21:18.232 --> 00:21:20.272
think that's probably what they're looking

527
00:21:20.296 --> 00:21:22.192
at, you know, as they try to understand how

528
00:21:22.216 --> 00:21:24.688
you can end up with a, uh, with a set

529
00:21:24.744 --> 00:21:27.680
of, uh, something like 15 or

530
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.304
20 dwarf galaxies, all of which lie in a

531
00:21:30.312 --> 00:21:31.952
single plane that flies in the face of

532
00:21:31.976 --> 00:21:33.936
everything we understand about dwarf galaxy

533
00:21:33.968 --> 00:21:36.702
formation, um, and certainly

534
00:21:36.766 --> 00:21:38.542
is very different from what we find in our

535
00:21:38.566 --> 00:21:40.046
own Milky Way galaxy.

536
00:21:40.158 --> 00:21:42.238
Andrew Dunkley: And from what I can tell, they've tried to

537
00:21:42.294 --> 00:21:44.558
figure this out using computer simulations

538
00:21:44.574 --> 00:21:45.918
and it didn't work.

539
00:21:46.054 --> 00:21:48.942
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there you go.

540
00:21:48.966 --> 00:21:51.502
And uh, that's just basically telling you

541
00:21:51.526 --> 00:21:54.062
that you need to put something else into the

542
00:21:54.086 --> 00:21:55.998
simulation and maybe it is a collision with

543
00:21:56.054 --> 00:21:58.398
another large galaxy, something else that's

544
00:21:58.414 --> 00:22:00.770
not in there already, to try and, uh,

545
00:22:00.770 --> 00:22:03.370
replicate what we see in the real world.

546
00:22:03.490 --> 00:22:05.514
Andrew Dunkley: So could that mean that if there was a

547
00:22:05.522 --> 00:22:07.882
collision with another large galaxy, that the

548
00:22:07.906 --> 00:22:09.530
result is Andromeda?

549
00:22:09.690 --> 00:22:12.170
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's. I think what you'd have to agree

550
00:22:12.210 --> 00:22:14.370
with that. Um,

551
00:22:15.490 --> 00:22:18.202
it, it's not been a, I mean the

552
00:22:18.226 --> 00:22:20.538
collision between Andromeda and the Milky

553
00:22:20.554 --> 00:22:22.602
Way, when it happens in three and a half

554
00:22:22.626 --> 00:22:24.762
billion years or whenever it says in the

555
00:22:24.786 --> 00:22:27.596
diary that that's going to happen. Uh, it's,

556
00:22:27.708 --> 00:22:30.524
that changes the shape of both of them.

557
00:22:30.600 --> 00:22:33.292
Uh, it basically you get a collision. All the

558
00:22:33.396 --> 00:22:36.140
shockwaves, gravitational shock waves,

559
00:22:36.300 --> 00:22:38.732
cause formation of

560
00:22:38.756 --> 00:22:40.720
supernovae. Basically, uh,

561
00:22:41.388 --> 00:22:44.284
form really big stars which last only a

562
00:22:44.292 --> 00:22:46.652
short time, then explode as supernovae. That

563
00:22:46.676 --> 00:22:49.196
uses up all the gas, uh, in the

564
00:22:49.268 --> 00:22:51.960
galaxies and you end up with what we call

565
00:22:52.560 --> 00:22:54.888
Milkomeda, the Milky Way

566
00:22:54.944 --> 00:22:57.180
Andromeda combination, which looks more like

567
00:22:57.180 --> 00:22:59.064
uh, what we call an elliptical galaxy. A

568
00:22:59.072 --> 00:23:01.960
galaxy with no, um, no gas, no

569
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:04.904
star formation. Uh, and Andromeda

570
00:23:04.952 --> 00:23:07.816
now is not like that at all. It's a actively

571
00:23:07.848 --> 00:23:10.072
star forming galaxy. So the suggestion is

572
00:23:10.096 --> 00:23:12.392
that maybe it was a smaller object that

573
00:23:12.416 --> 00:23:14.424
caused this disruption to the satellite

574
00:23:14.472 --> 00:23:15.192
galaxies.

575
00:23:15.336 --> 00:23:18.072
Andrew Dunkley: It's. Is it classified as a spiral

576
00:23:18.136 --> 00:23:18.866
galaxy?

577
00:23:19.008 --> 00:23:21.598
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, it's a, it's a spiral definitely.

578
00:23:21.694 --> 00:23:24.622
Andrew Dunkley: Okay. Um, and so is ours. But when they

579
00:23:24.646 --> 00:23:26.494
get together they're just going to be boring.

580
00:23:26.622 --> 00:23:28.302
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, they will, they'll be shaped like a

581
00:23:28.326 --> 00:23:30.974
football, uh, with no spiral arms.

582
00:23:31.102 --> 00:23:32.942
Nothing happening, nothing to see here.

583
00:23:33.046 --> 00:23:35.230
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Ah, it's a bit sad really.

584
00:23:35.270 --> 00:23:37.342
Professor Fred Watson: I mean because they're both pretty smart

585
00:23:37.406 --> 00:23:38.330
looking now.

586
00:23:39.190 --> 00:23:41.750
Andrew Dunkley: What a pity. Oh well, um,

587
00:23:42.150 --> 00:23:44.702
you know, we can't stop it. We'll just have

588
00:23:44.726 --> 00:23:47.122
to put up with it when the time comes. How

589
00:23:47.146 --> 00:23:48.770
long? Three and a half billion.

590
00:23:48.890 --> 00:23:50.882
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yeah, it's um, something to look

591
00:23:50.906 --> 00:23:52.754
forward to, you know, with trepidation

592
00:23:52.802 --> 00:23:53.170
perhaps.

593
00:23:53.250 --> 00:23:56.114
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, eventually. All right, uh, that story

594
00:23:56.202 --> 00:23:58.642
is uh, uh, at Cosmos

595
00:23:58.706 --> 00:24:01.602
magazine dot com if you'd like to read up on

596
00:24:01.626 --> 00:24:02.430
that one.

597
00:24:04.970 --> 00:24:07.602
Generic: Three, two, one.

598
00:24:07.786 --> 00:24:09.270
Space nuts.

599
00:24:09.610 --> 00:24:12.108
Andrew Dunkley: Uh, Fred, let's uh, go and visit an old

600
00:24:12.164 --> 00:24:14.316
friend, uh, someone who we thought had

601
00:24:14.388 --> 00:24:16.572
stopped writing to us. We don't know what we

602
00:24:16.596 --> 00:24:19.420
did wrong, but they have reached out to say

603
00:24:19.460 --> 00:24:21.836
hello. I'm still here. I'm alive again.

604
00:24:21.988 --> 00:24:23.324
Voyager 1.

605
00:24:23.492 --> 00:24:25.870
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right, uh,

606
00:24:25.870 --> 00:24:28.476
20. I looked it up the other day.

607
00:24:28.548 --> 00:24:29.926
25,

608
00:24:30.233 --> 00:24:32.924
is that right? Yeah, no, 20.

609
00:24:33.012 --> 00:24:35.560
About 27 billion kilometers away.

610
00:24:36.500 --> 00:24:39.308
And the most distant human made

611
00:24:39.364 --> 00:24:42.076
object. I uh, think it's

612
00:24:42.108 --> 00:24:45.084
got uh, 22.5

613
00:24:45.252 --> 00:24:47.852
light hours of travel time for the

614
00:24:47.876 --> 00:24:50.180
commands. Um,

615
00:24:50.260 --> 00:24:53.228
so the. What the.

616
00:24:53.364 --> 00:24:56.120
Basically the story goes back in fact to

617
00:24:56.460 --> 00:24:59.340
uh, the 20. I uh, think.

618
00:24:59.380 --> 00:25:00.908
I can't remember what date it was, but it's

619
00:25:00.924 --> 00:25:03.500
back in November 2023. So it's

620
00:25:03.500 --> 00:25:06.130
um, you know, well over a year ago,

621
00:25:06.460 --> 00:25:09.446
uh, that um, the transmission started

622
00:25:09.518 --> 00:25:11.814
coming through in a gobbledygook

623
00:25:11.862 --> 00:25:14.290
format. Uh, and

624
00:25:14.590 --> 00:25:16.930
there was, I think an issue

625
00:25:17.230 --> 00:25:19.558
with one of the memory

626
00:25:19.654 --> 00:25:22.130
chips. Um, and

627
00:25:22.750 --> 00:25:25.510
you know, there was work done on

628
00:25:25.630 --> 00:25:28.598
trying to fix that, uh, which

629
00:25:28.734 --> 00:25:31.490
basically I think took Five months or so.

630
00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:34.502
Uh, and then, uh, was

631
00:25:34.526 --> 00:25:37.250
it in April 2024,

632
00:25:37.760 --> 00:25:40.214
uh there was uh, a

633
00:25:40.302 --> 00:25:42.854
successful uh, receipt

634
00:25:42.982 --> 00:25:45.010
of data,

635
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.130
um, and that the

636
00:25:48.750 --> 00:25:50.822
machine was sending back things that you

637
00:25:50.846 --> 00:25:52.070
could actually read rather than just

638
00:25:52.110 --> 00:25:54.854
gobbledygook. So that was back in

639
00:25:54.942 --> 00:25:56.930
April 2024.

640
00:25:57.950 --> 00:26:00.614
But I think there's been another loss

641
00:26:00.702 --> 00:26:03.118
since then. Uh, and

642
00:26:03.254 --> 00:26:05.970
the you know, the um,

643
00:26:05.970 --> 00:26:08.890
difficulties that Voyager 1 has are

644
00:26:08.890 --> 00:26:11.420
uh, to some extent ongoing. Um,

645
00:26:11.750 --> 00:26:14.478
but uh, there is, you know, it's good news

646
00:26:14.534 --> 00:26:17.454
that uh, uh, at least we are

647
00:26:17.542 --> 00:26:19.758
still in some sort of communication with

648
00:26:19.814 --> 00:26:22.654
Voyager 1 and hopefully there's

649
00:26:22.702 --> 00:26:25.130
still potential for intelligible uh,

650
00:26:25.822 --> 00:26:28.590
signals to come back. The, the really

651
00:26:28.630 --> 00:26:30.718
interesting thing I guess is the, the power

652
00:26:30.774 --> 00:26:33.394
supply which is the radioisotope thermoele

653
00:26:33.502 --> 00:26:36.154
generator, which is now delivering a tiny

654
00:26:36.202 --> 00:26:38.314
fraction of what it delivered right at the

655
00:26:38.322 --> 00:26:40.922
beginning of the mission in the late 1970s.

656
00:26:41.066 --> 00:26:43.786
And so we've got uh, an issue

657
00:26:43.858 --> 00:26:46.506
there. And what NASA has done is switched off

658
00:26:46.658 --> 00:26:49.482
various instruments progressively so

659
00:26:49.506 --> 00:26:51.562
that things like the magnetometers that we

660
00:26:51.586 --> 00:26:53.290
call the magnetic field and things like that,

661
00:26:53.330 --> 00:26:55.674
I think they are now switched off so that

662
00:26:55.682 --> 00:26:58.234
you're saving power just for

663
00:26:58.402 --> 00:27:00.314
pointing the antenna, which is done by the

664
00:27:00.322 --> 00:27:03.082
spacecraft's thrusters and essentially

665
00:27:03.146 --> 00:27:05.318
sending signals backwards and forwards.

666
00:27:05.514 --> 00:27:07.998
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it's uh, it's quite remarkable though

667
00:27:08.054 --> 00:27:10.958
after all these decades that

668
00:27:11.014 --> 00:27:13.342
it's still going, we still communicate with

669
00:27:13.366 --> 00:27:15.930
it, we can still send it information.

670
00:27:16.230 --> 00:27:16.942
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

671
00:27:17.086 --> 00:27:19.886
Andrew Dunkley: And um, of course Voyager 2 is

672
00:27:19.958 --> 00:27:22.238
still out there and still going strong,

673
00:27:22.294 --> 00:27:25.246
although it too has had some issues. Although

674
00:27:25.358 --> 00:27:28.270
I think um, the most

675
00:27:28.310 --> 00:27:30.724
recent big issue with Voyager 2 was July

676
00:27:30.848 --> 00:27:33.604
2023 when a series of commands was sent

677
00:27:33.742 --> 00:27:35.880
to the spacecraft, causing its

678
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:38.792
antenna to point away from Earth. I think

679
00:27:38.816 --> 00:27:39.848
we did talk about that.

680
00:27:39.904 --> 00:27:41.240
Professor Fred Watson: We did talk about it. That's right.

681
00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:43.432
Andrew Dunkley: And it stopped the uh, spacecraft from

682
00:27:43.456 --> 00:27:46.040
receiving commands or sending data back to

683
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.760
Earth. And I

684
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:51.544
think they managed to somehow

685
00:27:51.592 --> 00:27:54.504
circumvent that. Um, I,

686
00:27:54.592 --> 00:27:57.336
I, I believe it involved the Canberra deep

687
00:27:57.368 --> 00:27:59.032
space complex.

688
00:27:59.096 --> 00:28:01.072
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I was just going to mention that. In

689
00:28:01.096 --> 00:28:03.376
fact it must have done because that Canberra

690
00:28:03.408 --> 00:28:06.128
deep space complex, uh, the Tidbin

691
00:28:06.144 --> 00:28:09.120
Billa dish, as we call it in the trade, uh,

692
00:28:09.120 --> 00:28:12.020
is uh, the only uh, antenna um,

693
00:28:12.368 --> 00:28:14.480
on Earth that can actually communicate with

694
00:28:14.520 --> 00:28:17.056
Voyager 2. And that's because Voyager

695
00:28:17.088 --> 00:28:19.184
2's at a latitude, if I remember rightly.

696
00:28:19.232 --> 00:28:22.112
It's about 66 degrees below

697
00:28:22.216 --> 00:28:24.704
the equator in terms of the direction it's

698
00:28:24.752 --> 00:28:27.632
going out to, which makes it invisible to

699
00:28:27.656 --> 00:28:30.544
the other two, uh, stations in the Deep

700
00:28:30.592 --> 00:28:33.276
Space, uh, network, which are in Madrid and

701
00:28:33.290 --> 00:28:36.172
uh, Goldstone in California. So, uh, yes,

702
00:28:36.236 --> 00:28:38.956
only, uh, only Tidbinbilla can see Voyager

703
00:28:38.988 --> 00:28:39.420
2.

704
00:28:39.540 --> 00:28:41.740
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, and that's how they saved it. They

705
00:28:41.780 --> 00:28:43.468
picked up a very faint signal.

706
00:28:43.564 --> 00:28:44.108
Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

707
00:28:44.164 --> 00:28:46.924
Andrew Dunkley: NASA was able to transmit some corrective

708
00:28:46.972 --> 00:28:49.500
data like, uh, to

709
00:28:49.540 --> 00:28:52.300
Voyager 2 and got it back online, which

710
00:28:52.340 --> 00:28:55.116
was very good news. Uh, and Voyager

711
00:28:55.148 --> 00:28:57.020
1's now back with us. So they're both still

712
00:28:57.060 --> 00:28:59.462
going. They're both still talking to us. We

713
00:28:59.486 --> 00:28:59.766
did.

714
00:28:59.838 --> 00:29:00.502
Professor Fred Watson: Extraordinary.

715
00:29:00.566 --> 00:29:02.102
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. We thought we'd offended both of them,

716
00:29:02.126 --> 00:29:04.838
but no, it's. It's all good. I mean, they've

717
00:29:04.854 --> 00:29:07.270
been alone for so long. I can understand them

718
00:29:07.310 --> 00:29:08.278
being a bit grumpy.

719
00:29:08.374 --> 00:29:11.270
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. They might

720
00:29:11.310 --> 00:29:13.718
like their own company though. M. They've

721
00:29:13.734 --> 00:29:15.318
both got music to listen to, so.

722
00:29:15.374 --> 00:29:16.854
Andrew Dunkley: Going different ways, aren't they?

723
00:29:16.942 --> 00:29:19.158
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, they are. That's the thing. Uh, Voyager

724
00:29:19.174 --> 00:29:21.190
2 is heading much more to the south than

725
00:29:21.230 --> 00:29:22.038
Voyager 1 is.

726
00:29:22.094 --> 00:29:24.130
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. M. It's such

727
00:29:24.520 --> 00:29:27.520
amazing. An amazing story for

728
00:29:27.560 --> 00:29:30.288
both of them, too. I mean, how

729
00:29:30.344 --> 00:29:32.528
far past end of mission have they survived?

730
00:29:32.624 --> 00:29:34.768
That's extraordinary.

731
00:29:34.864 --> 00:29:37.728
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Decades. It is, it is. It's

732
00:29:37.744 --> 00:29:40.192
fantastic. And they, you know, eventually

733
00:29:40.256 --> 00:29:42.610
their batteries will run out. Those, uh,

734
00:29:42.610 --> 00:29:44.624
radioisotope thermal thermoelectric

735
00:29:44.672 --> 00:29:47.216
generators will fizzle out so that they can't

736
00:29:47.248 --> 00:29:49.872
even send power to the, uh, to the

737
00:29:49.896 --> 00:29:52.550
transmitters. But the spacecraft will keep on

738
00:29:52.590 --> 00:29:54.050
going because they are

739
00:29:55.470 --> 00:29:57.462
orbital mechanics. Maybe for billions of

740
00:29:57.486 --> 00:29:58.694
years. We just don't know.

741
00:29:58.782 --> 00:30:01.126
Andrew Dunkley: Yes. Until someone catches them in a Venus

742
00:30:01.158 --> 00:30:04.086
fly trap on some other planet and it's

743
00:30:04.118 --> 00:30:05.670
all over Red Rover. Who knows?

744
00:30:05.750 --> 00:30:06.310
Professor Fred Watson: Who knows?

745
00:30:06.390 --> 00:30:09.254
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, Great, uh, story about Voyager 1. You

746
00:30:09.262 --> 00:30:11.734
can, um, find that online. There's quite a

747
00:30:11.742 --> 00:30:13.654
few news stories about it.

748
00:30:13.822 --> 00:30:16.422
Professor Fred Watson: Can I just, um, add one comment?

749
00:30:16.526 --> 00:30:19.090
So, the Canberra deep space communication

750
00:30:19.170 --> 00:30:21.890
complex is 60 years old this

751
00:30:21.930 --> 00:30:22.514
month.

752
00:30:22.682 --> 00:30:23.218
Andrew Dunkley: Wow.

753
00:30:23.314 --> 00:30:24.754
Professor Fred Watson: There you go. I should have, should have

754
00:30:24.762 --> 00:30:27.410
remembered that. You did, yeah.

755
00:30:27.570 --> 00:30:29.682
Should have remembered it earlier. 60 years

756
00:30:29.706 --> 00:30:30.610
old this month.

757
00:30:30.730 --> 00:30:33.470
Andrew Dunkley: Yes. It took you 60 years to remember that?

758
00:30:35.610 --> 00:30:38.386
All right, um, we are just about

759
00:30:38.458 --> 00:30:40.178
done. Thanks, uh, for your company. Thank

760
00:30:40.194 --> 00:30:42.290
you, Fred, as always. We'll wrap it up and

761
00:30:42.330 --> 00:30:44.022
we'll catch you on the next episode.

762
00:30:44.146 --> 00:30:46.910
Professor Fred Watson: That sounds wonderful. I'll look

763
00:30:46.950 --> 00:30:47.726
forward to it.

764
00:30:47.798 --> 00:30:49.406
Andrew Dunkley: All right, we'll see you then. Professor Fred

765
00:30:49.438 --> 00:30:51.742
Watson, Astronomer at large. Don't forget to

766
00:30:51.766 --> 00:30:53.614
visit us, uh, on our website. In the

767
00:30:53.622 --> 00:30:54.414
meantime, you can do

768
00:30:54.422 --> 00:30:57.118
that@spacenutspodcast.com or spacenuts

769
00:30:57.214 --> 00:30:59.838
IO all sorts of things to see and do and

770
00:30:59.894 --> 00:31:02.750
buy there. Um, more

771
00:31:02.790 --> 00:31:04.286
mainly Fred's books. But you know, there's

772
00:31:04.318 --> 00:31:06.750
other stuff as well. Some of it's even

773
00:31:06.790 --> 00:31:09.070
interesting. Oh, sorry. Um,

774
00:31:09.510 --> 00:31:11.630
some of it's not. And I think I wrote those

775
00:31:11.670 --> 00:31:14.478
books. Never mind. Ah, and thanks, uh, to

776
00:31:14.534 --> 00:31:16.890
Huw in the studio, who couldn't be with us

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00:31:16.930 --> 00:31:19.090
today because he was, um,

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00:31:19.570 --> 00:31:22.474
stirring the pot around Andromeda, causing

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00:31:22.522 --> 00:31:25.290
all sorts of mayhem. Typical of you.

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00:31:25.410 --> 00:31:27.002
And from me, Andrew Dunkley, thanks for your

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00:31:27.026 --> 00:31:28.586
company. Catch you on the very next episode

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00:31:28.618 --> 00:31:30.670
of Space Nuts. Bye. Bye.

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00:31:31.490 --> 00:31:33.706
Voice Over Guy: You've been listening to the Space Nuts

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00:31:33.738 --> 00:31:36.730
podcast, available at

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00:31:36.770 --> 00:31:38.794
Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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00:31:38.922 --> 00:31:41.602
iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast

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player. You can also stream on

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demand at bitesz.com this has been

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00:31:46.090 --> 00:31:48.418
another quality podcast production from

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00:31:48.474 --> 00:31:49.280
bitesz.com