How Scientific Discoveries at Mars Are Bringing Us Closer to Detecting Alien Life

WEBVTT

0
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.640
Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is

1
00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:05.200
Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy and space

2
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.000
science and sometimes puppy dogs. Who knows?

3
00:00:08.520 --> 00:00:10.840
Uh, my name is Andrew Dunkley, uh, your host.

4
00:00:10.840 --> 00:00:13.160
It's great to have your company. Coming up on

5
00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:16.080
this episode, we are going to look into

6
00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:19.240
a discovery made through the Perseverance

7
00:00:19.240 --> 00:00:21.920
Rover on Mars. Uh, have they

8
00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:24.520
found what could have been life in Mars's

9
00:00:24.520 --> 00:00:26.840
history? Or is it another rock that's just

10
00:00:26.840 --> 00:00:29.760
got a stain on it? Uh, also, uh, we've

11
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:32.420
got some news on the Hubble Tension and the

12
00:00:32.420 --> 00:00:35.260
Large Hadron Collider is no

13
00:00:35.260 --> 00:00:37.820
more. Well, it's going to be more,

14
00:00:37.980 --> 00:00:40.780
but it needs to be no more to be more.

15
00:00:40.780 --> 00:00:42.980
We'll tell you all about it on this episode

16
00:00:42.980 --> 00:00:43.980
of space nuts.

17
00:00:44.140 --> 00:00:46.540
Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

18
00:00:46.860 --> 00:00:49.500
10, 9. Ignition

19
00:00:49.500 --> 00:00:50.540
sequence start.

20
00:00:50.700 --> 00:00:51.421
Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.

21
00:00:51.493 --> 00:00:54.280
Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3, 2. 1, 2, 3, 4,

22
00:00:54.351 --> 00:00:56.460
5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

23
00:00:56.540 --> 00:00:57.740
Andrew Dunkley: Space nuts.

24
00:00:57.740 --> 00:00:59.580
Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good.

25
00:01:00.550 --> 00:01:03.190
Andrew Dunkley: Joining us again to discuss all of those

26
00:01:03.190 --> 00:01:04.910
things and more is Professor Fred Watson

27
00:01:04.910 --> 00:01:06.950
Watson, astronomer at large. Hi, Fred Watson.

28
00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:09.350
Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. Good to see you.

29
00:01:09.750 --> 00:01:10.510
Andrew Dunkley: Good to see you too.

30
00:01:10.510 --> 00:01:13.310
Professor Fred Watson: Good to be back on Space Nuts. It

31
00:01:13.310 --> 00:01:14.190
is, it is.

32
00:01:14.190 --> 00:01:14.870
Andrew Dunkley: It's very good.

33
00:01:15.430 --> 00:01:17.950
Uh, we've got a lot to talk about, so we

34
00:01:17.950 --> 00:01:20.810
might as well dive right in because, um,

35
00:01:20.810 --> 00:01:22.870
it wasn't so long ago that we had a bit of a

36
00:01:22.870 --> 00:01:25.750
chat about a, A rock that they

37
00:01:25.750 --> 00:01:27.950
found that they said came from Mars and it

38
00:01:27.950 --> 00:01:29.790
showed, uh, there was life. And then it

39
00:01:29.790 --> 00:01:32.370
turned out to be nothing like that.

40
00:01:33.100 --> 00:01:35.810
Uh, and now we have a storey popping up.

41
00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:38.810
Uh, that suggests the Perseverance Rover may

42
00:01:38.810 --> 00:01:41.570
have detected complex carbon,

43
00:01:41.720 --> 00:01:44.210
uh, molecules in Martian rocks that

44
00:01:44.610 --> 00:01:47.450
may have been signatures for

45
00:01:47.450 --> 00:01:50.440
life. Um, yeah, you can't, uh,

46
00:01:50.440 --> 00:01:52.890
you can't say, look, I found formal life on

47
00:01:52.890 --> 00:01:54.930
Mars. It's all over. Red Rover. Boom, boom.

48
00:01:54.930 --> 00:01:56.850
That's a good joke, that. Think about it.

49
00:01:57.170 --> 00:02:00.090
Professor Fred Watson: And, um, I didn't need to think too

50
00:02:00.090 --> 00:02:00.450
hard.

51
00:02:01.810 --> 00:02:04.700
Andrew Dunkley: And, uh, look, you've just got to take

52
00:02:04.700 --> 00:02:07.340
this with a grain of, uh, Martian salt and

53
00:02:07.820 --> 00:02:09.500
hope that that's what they've actually found.

54
00:02:09.500 --> 00:02:10.460
That's what it's all about.

55
00:02:12.940 --> 00:02:15.060
Professor Fred Watson: You have to go back to that pink planet we

56
00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:17.220
were talking about a few episodes ago to get

57
00:02:17.220 --> 00:02:18.500
the grain of salt to.

58
00:02:18.500 --> 00:02:19.500
Andrew Dunkley: Pink Salt planet,

59
00:02:21.740 --> 00:02:22.260
Professor Fred Watson: indeed.

60
00:02:22.260 --> 00:02:25.070
So, um, yes, the storey is. It is, um,

61
00:02:25.100 --> 00:02:27.780
as you've hinted, um, a kind of

62
00:02:27.780 --> 00:02:30.620
extension of a storey that we covered a few

63
00:02:30.620 --> 00:02:33.410
weeks ago, which was this particular

64
00:02:33.490 --> 00:02:36.050
rock, um, which

65
00:02:36.130 --> 00:02:38.970
is, uh, from an outcrop called

66
00:02:38.970 --> 00:02:41.850
the Bright Angel Outcrop, uh, on, um,

67
00:02:42.210 --> 00:02:45.010
Mars. Uh, so this is the Perseverance Rover,

68
00:02:45.010 --> 00:02:47.610
which you'll Remember is working hard in

69
00:02:47.610 --> 00:02:50.450
Jezero Crater, where there is a

70
00:02:50.450 --> 00:02:53.370
river Delta from probably 3.5 billion

71
00:02:53.370 --> 00:02:55.970
years ago. So, um, the Bright

72
00:02:55.970 --> 00:02:58.770
angel outcrop and the particular rock

73
00:02:59.090 --> 00:03:01.980
that they found, um, I can't see whether

74
00:03:02.060 --> 00:03:04.460
it had a particular name, but it was a

75
00:03:04.460 --> 00:03:07.420
mudstone rock which had,

76
00:03:08.740 --> 00:03:11.420
uh, basically, as you said, stains on them.

77
00:03:12.060 --> 00:03:15.060
Uh, stains on the surface. Um, stains on

78
00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:16.700
Mars will be interesting because you'd wonder

79
00:03:16.700 --> 00:03:19.580
where they came from. But it's got

80
00:03:19.580 --> 00:03:21.740
surface spots and what have been called

81
00:03:21.740 --> 00:03:24.620
nodules. Uh, and the

82
00:03:24.620 --> 00:03:27.180
reason why it caused excitement was

83
00:03:27.420 --> 00:03:30.380
that some of those features superficially

84
00:03:30.380 --> 00:03:33.380
resemble the features that are

85
00:03:33.380 --> 00:03:36.140
produced on Earth by fossilised

86
00:03:36.140 --> 00:03:37.980
microbes. And that's what we covered

87
00:03:37.980 --> 00:03:40.140
actually, back in 2024. It seems like only

88
00:03:40.140 --> 00:03:42.700
yesterday, but we did talk about that.

89
00:03:43.660 --> 00:03:45.500
Or maybe. No, it was probably last year

90
00:03:45.500 --> 00:03:47.500
actually. Um, I think that's when the results

91
00:03:47.500 --> 00:03:49.420
came out. So last year, 2025.

92
00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:53.150
Uh, uh, and a quote, um,

93
00:03:54.050 --> 00:03:56.260
uh, there's a nice Guardian piece on this

94
00:03:56.260 --> 00:03:59.060
Storey, but there's a quote from Sean Duffy,

95
00:03:59.060 --> 00:04:01.560
who used to acting head of NASA,

96
00:04:01.990 --> 00:04:04.800
uh, who said of that discovery, this

97
00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:07.080
very well could be the clearest sign of life

98
00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:09.480
that we've ever found on Mars. Which is

99
00:04:10.040 --> 00:04:12.200
an interesting comment. And of course

100
00:04:12.760 --> 00:04:15.000
all astrobiologists and all scientists

101
00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:17.560
probably, and all, um, podcast presenters,

102
00:04:17.970 --> 00:04:20.760
uh, couch this sort of discovery in very,

103
00:04:20.840 --> 00:04:23.480
very, um, broad terms

104
00:04:23.640 --> 00:04:26.540
because, uh, with. There's

105
00:04:26.540 --> 00:04:29.420
certainly no. This is certainly not a

106
00:04:29.420 --> 00:04:32.260
definitive discovery of life

107
00:04:32.260 --> 00:04:35.180
on Mars, but it

108
00:04:35.180 --> 00:04:38.060
has basically gone

109
00:04:38.060 --> 00:04:40.820
further in the sense that the samples

110
00:04:41.460 --> 00:04:44.340
that, uh, Perseverance took

111
00:04:44.420 --> 00:04:47.140
from this mudstone, uh,

112
00:04:47.140 --> 00:04:49.780
showed that there was something called

113
00:04:49.780 --> 00:04:52.260
macromolecular carbon on its surface.

114
00:04:53.540 --> 00:04:56.260
And that's something. A

115
00:04:56.260 --> 00:04:58.340
carbon, you know, it's carbon compounds,

116
00:04:59.140 --> 00:05:01.140
probably. Excuse me. Sorry about that,

117
00:05:01.140 --> 00:05:03.820
Andrew, just bellowing into my microphone

118
00:05:03.820 --> 00:05:05.960
here. I do apologise. Um,

119
00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:09.180
um. Uh, it's probably several

120
00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:12.060
organic types of organic

121
00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:13.740
molecule and of course organic means

122
00:05:13.740 --> 00:05:16.180
containing carbon associated with life

123
00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:18.900
normally. Um, but, uh, the

124
00:05:18.900 --> 00:05:21.220
analysis of this shows,

125
00:05:21.700 --> 00:05:23.940
and the analysis by Perseverance

126
00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:27.700
shows that it is, uh,

127
00:05:27.840 --> 00:05:30.400
a possibility that

128
00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:34.240
this life, these organic, these

129
00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:37.120
macromolecules, carbon macromolecules,

130
00:05:37.520 --> 00:05:39.960
could have been the result of life

131
00:05:39.960 --> 00:05:42.800
processes, but they could also

132
00:05:43.440 --> 00:05:45.280
come from basically,

133
00:05:46.170 --> 00:05:49.080
uh, I mean essentially, um, geological

134
00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:51.800
processes, tectonic processes. And

135
00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:54.450
so that's where the

136
00:05:54.450 --> 00:05:57.400
thing stands at the moment. Uh,

137
00:05:58.170 --> 00:05:59.210
we know from,

138
00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.010
uh, work that's already been done by

139
00:06:04.170 --> 00:06:06.570
the Perseverance rover and Perseverance,

140
00:06:07.300 --> 00:06:10.090
uh, so Curiosity went to Mars to

141
00:06:10.090 --> 00:06:12.090
determine whether Mars was ever habitable.

142
00:06:12.650 --> 00:06:15.410
And we know that from Curiosity it found that

143
00:06:15.410 --> 00:06:17.730
out within the first two weeks of being

144
00:06:17.730 --> 00:06:20.650
there. Um, but we know now from

145
00:06:20.650 --> 00:06:23.410
perseverance that Jezero Crater was also

146
00:06:23.410 --> 00:06:25.190
a habitable, habitable environment

147
00:06:26.390 --> 00:06:29.190
at um, least for some sort of primitive level

148
00:06:29.190 --> 00:06:32.030
of life. Um, but of course uh, the

149
00:06:32.030 --> 00:06:34.910
issue is that we won't be able to do the

150
00:06:34.910 --> 00:06:37.350
proper tests on these samples until

151
00:06:37.910 --> 00:06:40.560
we get these samples back to Earth, uh,

152
00:06:40.589 --> 00:06:43.350
laboratories where there's far more refined

153
00:06:43.350 --> 00:06:45.270
equipment than you can carry on a little

154
00:06:45.270 --> 00:06:47.950
rover on Mars. And the problem is we

155
00:06:47.950 --> 00:06:49.950
don't currently have any way of doing that,

156
00:06:49.950 --> 00:06:52.700
of getting these samples back because the um,

157
00:06:53.070 --> 00:06:55.740
the mission uh, to do that, a uh,

158
00:06:55.790 --> 00:06:58.670
joint NASA European Space Agency mission

159
00:06:59.070 --> 00:07:01.630
fell foul of politics in the United States

160
00:07:01.630 --> 00:07:03.390
and was cancelled earlier in the year.

161
00:07:03.960 --> 00:07:04.010
Professor Fred Watson: Uh,

162
00:07:05.870 --> 00:07:07.710
Professor Fred Watson: we knew it was in trouble anyway because the

163
00:07:07.710 --> 00:07:10.310
cost had sort of blown out. So it's not a

164
00:07:10.310 --> 00:07:11.910
surprise that that happened. But at the

165
00:07:11.910 --> 00:07:14.870
moment there's nothing on the books to get

166
00:07:14.870 --> 00:07:17.870
them back. Few plans going on I think,

167
00:07:17.870 --> 00:07:19.550
but not to get them back.

168
00:07:20.700 --> 00:07:23.060
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, and that's uh, frustrating but I

169
00:07:23.060 --> 00:07:25.740
suppose in the scheme of things it's, I mean

170
00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:28.700
we all want to know whether or not Mars

171
00:07:28.700 --> 00:07:31.060
had life but it's probably not one of the

172
00:07:31.060 --> 00:07:33.830
most urgent things to deal with. Um,

173
00:07:34.140 --> 00:07:36.860
we'll get around to it and chances

174
00:07:36.860 --> 00:07:39.600
are that those um,

175
00:07:40.220 --> 00:07:42.420
cylinders I think they are, that the deposits

176
00:07:42.420 --> 00:07:45.260
are in will be collected as a part of

177
00:07:45.340 --> 00:07:48.040
another major mission. That would be my

178
00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:49.800
thinking sometime in the future.

179
00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.080
Professor Fred Watson: You're probably right. Uh, although it's

180
00:07:53.080 --> 00:07:56.080
a very specific type of mission that's going

181
00:07:56.080 --> 00:07:57.480
to go and collect these samples

182
00:07:59.400 --> 00:08:01.680
and then send them back to Earth. That's the

183
00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:04.440
tricky bit. It is, it's

184
00:08:04.520 --> 00:08:06.280
probably a two step process where you've got

185
00:08:06.280 --> 00:08:09.200
an orbiter um, sent to

186
00:08:09.200 --> 00:08:11.800
Mars, goes into orbit around Mars, that drops

187
00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:14.800
a probe onto the surface. The probe picks up

188
00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:17.400
the uh, cache samples,

189
00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:20.200
not ah, cash but

190
00:08:20.200 --> 00:08:23.120
cache, uh, and um, brings them

191
00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:25.440
back up to the orbiter and then the orbiter

192
00:08:25.440 --> 00:08:28.120
sends off a probe to the Earth and that re

193
00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:30.240
enters. It's a very complex process which is

194
00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:33.160
why the cost blew out. But um, I

195
00:08:33.160 --> 00:08:36.040
do have my own view on what might prompt

196
00:08:36.700 --> 00:08:39.480
uh, some urgency with this and that is that

197
00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:42.400
the Chinese are planning to do a sample

198
00:08:42.400 --> 00:08:44.640
return mission to Mars uh, in

199
00:08:44.640 --> 00:08:47.400
the2030s. So um,

200
00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:50.160
if anything's going to stimulate some action

201
00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:53.160
on this, my guess is that that's what it

202
00:08:53.160 --> 00:08:56.040
would be. And you know, all praise to

203
00:08:56.040 --> 00:08:57.880
the China National Space Agency.

204
00:08:57.880 --> 00:08:58.400
Professor Fred Watson: Absolutely.

205
00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.240
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, for aiming high. It's a great thing to

206
00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:01.520
do.

207
00:09:01.760 --> 00:09:02.320
Andrew Dunkley: It is.

208
00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:05.480
And um, the other interesting thing

209
00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:07.840
I suppose and you mentioned Curiosity. Uh,

210
00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:10.720
it's starting to build up evidence

211
00:09:10.880 --> 00:09:13.880
that, um, the potential for life

212
00:09:13.880 --> 00:09:16.840
on Mars was widespread across the

213
00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:17.280
planet.

214
00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:20.440
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, correct. That's right. So I meant

215
00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:21.760
to mention that. That's absolutely right.

216
00:09:21.760 --> 00:09:23.960
That you know, when you've got, um,

217
00:09:24.860 --> 00:09:27.320
uh, mudstones separated by 3,000

218
00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:30.240
kilometres or thereabouts, uh, and

219
00:09:30.880 --> 00:09:33.200
giving you the same sort of answer. Yeah,

220
00:09:33.280 --> 00:09:34.720
that I think is, um,

221
00:09:35.760 --> 00:09:38.640
it's a very, very strong evidence

222
00:09:38.640 --> 00:09:41.520
for there having been the possibility of life

223
00:09:41.520 --> 00:09:44.240
on Mars and that it might be findable, if I

224
00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:46.640
can put it that way, if the conditions are

225
00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.430
suitable for life everywhere, then there

226
00:09:49.430 --> 00:09:52.270
might be remnants, um, of living

227
00:09:52.270 --> 00:09:54.610
organisms everywhere on Mars which we have,

228
00:09:54.610 --> 00:09:56.430
uh, a good chance of finding. Because

229
00:09:57.710 --> 00:10:00.670
when NASA and other space agencies

230
00:10:00.670 --> 00:10:03.070
aim to send, uh, spacecraft to Mars,

231
00:10:03.390 --> 00:10:06.310
it's not quite just a tail on

232
00:10:06.310 --> 00:10:08.190
the donkey thing where you just poke it in

233
00:10:08.430 --> 00:10:11.070
willy nilly. You've got really good reasons

234
00:10:11.070 --> 00:10:13.110
for going to any specific place. And

235
00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:15.990
certainly Jezero Crater, um, it

236
00:10:15.990 --> 00:10:18.070
was a masterstroke. Sending it to a lake

237
00:10:18.070 --> 00:10:20.790
that, uh, had, um, a

238
00:10:20.790 --> 00:10:21.990
river delta in it.

239
00:10:22.310 --> 00:10:24.160
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, they, they picked a good target. Uh,

240
00:10:24.390 --> 00:10:27.110
that was intentional. And yes, uh, it seems

241
00:10:27.110 --> 00:10:29.190
to be paying off. Fingers. Fingers crossed.

242
00:10:29.190 --> 00:10:32.150
But, um, yeah, too early to tell. But looking

243
00:10:32.630 --> 00:10:35.390
somewhat promising is, I think, the best way

244
00:10:35.390 --> 00:10:36.629
to describe it at the moment.

245
00:10:36.950 --> 00:10:39.310
Professor Fred Watson: That's right. It's not, it's not a kind of

246
00:10:39.310 --> 00:10:40.990
negative result. It's not saying, oh, no,

247
00:10:40.990 --> 00:10:43.130
there's no life on Mars. It's saying, hm,

248
00:10:43.130 --> 00:10:44.470
there might be. It might have been.

249
00:10:44.710 --> 00:10:47.190
Andrew Dunkley: Might, might have been. And still might be.

250
00:10:47.630 --> 00:10:49.630
Professor Fred Watson: It still might be. That's right, yeah.

251
00:10:50.030 --> 00:10:52.990
Andrew Dunkley: You can read all about that@theguardian.com

252
00:10:52.990 --> 00:10:55.030
or you can read the paper that's been

253
00:10:55.030 --> 00:10:58.030
published in Science Advances. This is Space

254
00:10:58.030 --> 00:11:00.070
Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor

255
00:11:00.070 --> 00:11:00.910
Fred Watson Watson.

256
00:11:03.230 --> 00:11:04.270
Space Nuts.

257
00:11:04.350 --> 00:11:06.910
Now, uh, one of our, um, semi

258
00:11:06.910 --> 00:11:09.550
regular topics is the Hubble

259
00:11:09.710 --> 00:11:12.510
Tension and it's back in the news again,

260
00:11:12.870 --> 00:11:15.830
uh, because of a, um,

261
00:11:15.950 --> 00:11:18.910
another detection involving the collision

262
00:11:18.910 --> 00:11:20.730
of neutron stars. Is that right?

263
00:11:20.890 --> 00:11:23.850
Professor Fred Watson: That's correct, yes. Um, yes.

264
00:11:23.850 --> 00:11:26.850
So, uh, the Hubble Tension is one

265
00:11:26.850 --> 00:11:29.810
of these irritating things that just won't

266
00:11:29.810 --> 00:11:30.330
go away.

267
00:11:31.370 --> 00:11:33.290
Andrew Dunkley: Well, it's being described as one of the

268
00:11:33.290 --> 00:11:35.530
biggest challenges in modern cosmology. So,

269
00:11:35.530 --> 00:11:36.730
yes, it won't go away.

270
00:11:36.890 --> 00:11:39.890
Professor Fred Watson: It won't go away. But it's a bit weird. I

271
00:11:39.890 --> 00:11:42.730
did a radio segment about it, um, with a

272
00:11:43.290 --> 00:11:45.930
Australian commercial radio station yesterday

273
00:11:45.930 --> 00:11:48.700
morning because of the headline storey. Uh,

274
00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:51.550
and I thought, how do you make this exciting?

275
00:11:53.870 --> 00:11:55.150
It was, first thing you know, it was a

276
00:11:55.150 --> 00:11:57.550
morning breakfast show and the guys who Were

277
00:11:57.550 --> 00:11:59.870
interviewing me, were clearly not impressed

278
00:11:59.870 --> 00:12:02.790
with it. Uh, normally I get lots of questions

279
00:12:02.790 --> 00:12:05.790
Andrew Dunkley: from them, but, um, it may well have just

280
00:12:05.790 --> 00:12:08.630
been something that goes

281
00:12:08.630 --> 00:12:11.350
into the too hard basket because it's not an

282
00:12:11.350 --> 00:12:12.590
easy thing to get your head around.

283
00:12:12.590 --> 00:12:15.050
Professor Fred Watson: It's not. That's right. It's not. Um,

284
00:12:15.660 --> 00:12:17.580
there's a lot of gobbledygook attached to it.

285
00:12:17.580 --> 00:12:19.300
Anyway, let's have a go. We have a very

286
00:12:19.300 --> 00:12:21.800
erudite audience on Space Nuts. Uh,

287
00:12:22.140 --> 00:12:24.620
and Space Nuts, uh, listeners

288
00:12:25.020 --> 00:12:27.940
will probably already be aware of all this

289
00:12:27.940 --> 00:12:30.500
anyway. Um, but, uh. Yes.

290
00:12:30.500 --> 00:12:33.260
So what's the Hubble tension? Uh, we have

291
00:12:33.260 --> 00:12:36.060
two measurements of the Hubble constant,

292
00:12:36.060 --> 00:12:38.820
which is the number that defines how fast

293
00:12:38.820 --> 00:12:41.500
the universe is expanding. Now,

294
00:12:42.300 --> 00:12:45.060
it's the expansion time or the

295
00:12:45.060 --> 00:12:48.040
expansion rate that we are seeing. Uh, as

296
00:12:48.040 --> 00:12:50.200
you and I have said many times before, it's

297
00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:52.400
measured in units of kilometres per second

298
00:12:52.400 --> 00:12:54.880
per megaparsec. Uh, and A

299
00:12:54.880 --> 00:12:57.720
megaparsec is 3.26 million light

300
00:12:57.720 --> 00:12:59.840
years. It's the units astronomers use because

301
00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:01.360
you can't measure light years, but you can

302
00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:03.340
measure parsecs. So, um,

303
00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:06.180
that number is, uh,

304
00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:09.080
the magic number. And we have,

305
00:13:11.570 --> 00:13:13.640
uh, two different ways of determining it,

306
00:13:13.640 --> 00:13:16.480
both of which now have achieved a really

307
00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.600
high level of precision. Um,

308
00:13:19.630 --> 00:13:22.270
there was a talk that I was at a couple of

309
00:13:22.270 --> 00:13:24.510
months ago in Germany where, uh, one of the

310
00:13:24.510 --> 00:13:27.150
experts was talking about this, uh, and

311
00:13:28.670 --> 00:13:30.670
the sort of uncertainty limits that are put

312
00:13:30.670 --> 00:13:33.590
on each of these two different methods of

313
00:13:33.590 --> 00:13:35.630
determining the Hubble constant. They were

314
00:13:35.630 --> 00:13:38.350
very small, uh, on the order of one

315
00:13:38.350 --> 00:13:40.920
kilometre per second. Very, very, uh,

316
00:13:40.920 --> 00:13:43.750
accurate measurements. Uh, but they

317
00:13:43.750 --> 00:13:46.520
disagree. So, uh, you can do it two ways.

318
00:13:46.520 --> 00:13:48.680
The first way is to

319
00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.200
look at the cosmic microwave background

320
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:55.040
radiation, the good, uh, old background glow

321
00:13:55.040 --> 00:13:57.360
of the Big Bang that is everywhere in the

322
00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.320
sky. Uh, it has,

323
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.750
um, undulations on it in temperature, uh,

324
00:14:02.760 --> 00:14:05.240
which we recognise as being

325
00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:07.720
differences in the temperature of the Big

326
00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:10.040
Bang fireball,

327
00:14:10.400 --> 00:14:12.930
uh, which are caused by acoustic

328
00:14:12.930 --> 00:14:14.970
oscillations. It's the bang of the Big Bang.

329
00:14:15.290 --> 00:14:17.850
But you can use those undulations to get a

330
00:14:17.850 --> 00:14:20.850
measurement of the Hubble constant. And the

331
00:14:20.850 --> 00:14:23.810
value that that technology gets or that

332
00:14:23.810 --> 00:14:26.690
method gets is 67 to 68 kilometres per

333
00:14:26.690 --> 00:14:29.530
second per megaparsec. The

334
00:14:29.530 --> 00:14:32.410
other way of, uh, measuring this

335
00:14:32.410 --> 00:14:34.490
is to look in the nearby universe. You look

336
00:14:34.490 --> 00:14:37.130
at galaxies whose distances are measured in,

337
00:14:37.400 --> 00:14:40.050
um, millions or hundreds of millions of light

338
00:14:40.050 --> 00:14:43.010
years. Uh, and that's very local compared

339
00:14:43.010 --> 00:14:45.130
with the 13.8 billion light years

340
00:14:45.770 --> 00:14:48.480
of the cosmic microwave background. Um,

341
00:14:48.570 --> 00:14:51.290
so you look locally and you look for the

342
00:14:51.290 --> 00:14:53.840
traditional methods of Finding, um,

343
00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:57.050
uh, the distances to galaxies, uh, which,

344
00:14:57.220 --> 00:14:59.890
uh, one of them is by what we call

345
00:14:59.890 --> 00:15:02.170
Cepheid variable stars. That was the way that

346
00:15:02.170 --> 00:15:04.210
galaxies were first established to be a long

347
00:15:04.210 --> 00:15:07.090
way off in 1923. Um, you

348
00:15:07.090 --> 00:15:09.710
can also do it with supernova explosions, all

349
00:15:09.710 --> 00:15:12.630
of that sort of stuff, uh, gives you another

350
00:15:12.870 --> 00:15:15.830
alternative value, uh, on the Hubble

351
00:15:15.830 --> 00:15:18.550
constant, and that gives you a higher answer.

352
00:15:18.630 --> 00:15:21.470
So the local universe gives

353
00:15:21.470 --> 00:15:24.070
you, uh, uh, an answer of about

354
00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:26.990
73 kilometres per second per

355
00:15:26.990 --> 00:15:29.350
megaparsec, sort of. So that's

356
00:15:29.670 --> 00:15:32.590
roughly 5. Higher. 5

357
00:15:32.590 --> 00:15:35.030
kilometres per second per megaparsec higher

358
00:15:35.030 --> 00:15:36.470
than the one you get from the Hubble

359
00:15:36.470 --> 00:15:39.460
constant. Now that's, you know, I suppose

360
00:15:39.460 --> 00:15:41.980
that's, uh, something like a 6 or

361
00:15:41.980 --> 00:15:44.660
7% difference between them. And

362
00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:47.820
I can tell you, 30 years ago, um, when I

363
00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:50.700
was an astronomer, kind of a

364
00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:53.460
bit more directly connected with all this 5%.

365
00:15:54.180 --> 00:15:57.130
We'd die for 5%. That was, um,

366
00:15:58.100 --> 00:16:00.540
6 or 7% or whatever the difference is 5

367
00:16:00.540 --> 00:16:02.940
kilometres per second per megaparsec, uh,

368
00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:04.580
because most of them differed by 50

369
00:16:04.580 --> 00:16:06.860
kilometres per second per megaparsec back

370
00:16:06.860 --> 00:16:09.580
then. Um, so, uh, and it was the Hubble

371
00:16:09.580 --> 00:16:11.380
telescope that actually nailed it down to be

372
00:16:11.380 --> 00:16:14.300
in the region of 70. But, yes, we have this

373
00:16:14.780 --> 00:16:17.540
discrepancy. Uh, um. What's the

374
00:16:17.540 --> 00:16:19.370
answer? So, um.

375
00:16:20.380 --> 00:16:21.860
Actually, I might just quote there's a very

376
00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:23.620
nice conversation piece by one of the

377
00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:26.540
astronomers involved, um, with this, who

378
00:16:26.540 --> 00:16:29.100
is a radio astronomer at csiro, the

379
00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:31.260
Australia's National Science Agency.

380
00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:35.580
Uh, Kelly Gurgi. Uh, and, uh,

381
00:16:35.580 --> 00:16:37.980
let me see if I can find this comment. Yes,

382
00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:41.320
that's that. So that Kelly says this is the

383
00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:43.480
Hubble tension. What does it mean? Could it

384
00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:45.680
be something. Could it be something has gone

385
00:16:45.680 --> 00:16:48.120
awry in one or both methods?

386
00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:51.440
Despite intense scrutiny, nobody has found

387
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.079
any mistakes. Alternatively, our

388
00:16:54.079 --> 00:16:56.160
understanding of how the universe evolves may

389
00:16:56.160 --> 00:16:58.200
be missing something fundamental and we need

390
00:16:58.200 --> 00:16:59.720
new physics to resolve it.

391
00:17:00.620 --> 00:17:00.640
Professor Fred Watson: Uh,

392
00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:05.360
Professor Fred Watson: to settle this cosmic M debate, new and

393
00:17:05.360 --> 00:17:07.480
independent methods of measuring the Hubble

394
00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:09.240
constant are, uh, highly sought after.

395
00:17:09.860 --> 00:17:12.580
Which gets us to the storey. Yes, yes.

396
00:17:13.140 --> 00:17:14.580
Andrew Dunkley: We had to fill in all the blanks.

397
00:17:14.580 --> 00:17:17.580
Professor Fred Watson: That's right. Um,

398
00:17:17.620 --> 00:17:20.340
and as the article goes on, gravitational

399
00:17:20.340 --> 00:17:22.700
waves offer an entirely independent way to

400
00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:25.060
measure the expansion of the universe. And we

401
00:17:25.060 --> 00:17:26.860
know about gravitational waves. That's very

402
00:17:26.860 --> 00:17:29.300
much the stock in trade of what we talk about

403
00:17:29.380 --> 00:17:32.100
on Space Nuts. Uh, and

404
00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:34.660
so, uh, what they've done is gone back to one

405
00:17:34.660 --> 00:17:37.320
that was particularly interesting. Uh,

406
00:17:37.620 --> 00:17:40.220
and as you know, gravitational waves get

407
00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:42.420
their number from the date when they're

408
00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:43.300
discovered. This was

409
00:17:43.540 --> 00:17:46.580
GW170817.

410
00:17:47.140 --> 00:17:49.840
So, discovered on the 17th of August, uh,

411
00:17:49.840 --> 00:17:51.690
2017. Um,

412
00:17:52.740 --> 00:17:55.220
that's only two years after the first one was

413
00:17:55.220 --> 00:17:56.900
found. Actually, I think it's only a year

414
00:17:56.900 --> 00:17:59.740
after. I think, uh, it's two years, certainly

415
00:17:59.740 --> 00:18:01.460
two years after the first one was observed.

416
00:18:02.600 --> 00:18:04.060
Um, so, uh,

417
00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:08.140
and this was a neutron star collision, two

418
00:18:08.140 --> 00:18:11.060
neutron stars. And that has the

419
00:18:11.060 --> 00:18:13.700
property unlike a black hole neutron star

420
00:18:13.700 --> 00:18:15.500
collision or a black hole black hole

421
00:18:15.500 --> 00:18:18.140
collision. A neutron star neutron star

422
00:18:18.140 --> 00:18:20.700
collision, uh, actually produces

423
00:18:20.940 --> 00:18:23.220
radiation, electromagnetic radiation. It

424
00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:25.660
produces a flash or a glow.

425
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.860
Um, and that is something you can

426
00:18:28.860 --> 00:18:31.780
detect. So for a start, that means you know

427
00:18:31.780 --> 00:18:33.820
where these gravitational waves have come

428
00:18:33.820 --> 00:18:35.980
from. With a high level of certainty. You can

429
00:18:35.980 --> 00:18:38.320
take test all kinds of things like the fact

430
00:18:38.320 --> 00:18:40.880
that gravitational waves, uh, travel at the

431
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.320
speed of light. All of that sort of pops out

432
00:18:43.320 --> 00:18:45.780
of GW, uh,

433
00:18:45.780 --> 00:18:48.760
17 08, uh, 1 7. Uh,

434
00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:50.760
so it was a remarkable event.

435
00:18:51.340 --> 00:18:54.280
Uh, what has now happened though is

436
00:18:54.280 --> 00:18:56.480
that people have used the analysis of that

437
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:59.240
signal to sort of tease out,

438
00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:02.520
um, the information about the

439
00:19:02.520 --> 00:19:05.400
Hubble constant. And they get an answer

440
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.360
that is not as accurate as either of the

441
00:19:08.360 --> 00:19:10.360
other ones because they haven't got that

442
00:19:10.360 --> 00:19:13.320
precision yet for this method. But it's

443
00:19:13.320 --> 00:19:15.680
intriguingly like the,

444
00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:18.480
uh, measurement from the

445
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.479
distant universe. Uh, that is the

446
00:19:21.479 --> 00:19:24.280
higher, uh, um, the lower

447
00:19:24.280 --> 00:19:27.120
value. Uh, that's the. Remember, the

448
00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:30.080
distant universe measurements have about 67

449
00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:32.680
to 68 kilometres per second per megaparsec.

450
00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:35.590
The other one was more like 73. Um, this

451
00:19:35.590 --> 00:19:37.710
new value is somewhere between

452
00:19:37.870 --> 00:19:40.870
61 and 70 kilometres per

453
00:19:40.870 --> 00:19:42.910
second per megaparsec, which kind of

454
00:19:43.790 --> 00:19:46.670
is outside the range of the near

455
00:19:46.670 --> 00:19:49.120
universe value. Uh,

456
00:19:49.810 --> 00:19:52.510
uh, um, so it agrees much more

457
00:19:52.750 --> 00:19:54.990
with the distant universe value.

458
00:19:55.630 --> 00:19:56.430
Even though

459
00:19:57.070 --> 00:20:00.830
GW170817

460
00:20:01.470 --> 00:20:04.130
came from a galaxy that is

461
00:20:04.130 --> 00:20:07.130
not that far away in cosmic terms,

462
00:20:07.130 --> 00:20:09.930
it's about 140 million light years from

463
00:20:09.930 --> 00:20:12.370
Earth and that's sort of on our doorstep in

464
00:20:12.370 --> 00:20:15.130
galactic terms. So here you've got an

465
00:20:15.130 --> 00:20:16.330
independent method,

466
00:20:18.210 --> 00:20:20.530
uh, that gives an answer more like the

467
00:20:20.530 --> 00:20:23.490
distant method did. Uh, but it's

468
00:20:23.490 --> 00:20:26.450
using, uh, nearby objects rather than

469
00:20:26.450 --> 00:20:28.650
distant objects. So I think what it's done

470
00:20:29.210 --> 00:20:31.410
is very neatly thrown the cat among the

471
00:20:31.410 --> 00:20:32.170
pigeons again.

472
00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:33.210
Andrew Dunkley: Sure has.

473
00:20:34.090 --> 00:20:36.970
Professor Fred Watson: Um, well, let me just read

474
00:20:36.970 --> 00:20:39.490
the article. Uh, the last paragraph is our

475
00:20:39.490 --> 00:20:42.050
result is still four times less precise than

476
00:20:42.050 --> 00:20:44.290
the leading nearby universe measurements. We

477
00:20:44.290 --> 00:20:45.930
will need to detect more neutron star

478
00:20:45.930 --> 00:20:47.970
collisions to definitively settle the Hubble

479
00:20:47.970 --> 00:20:50.290
tension using gravitational waves. Such

480
00:20:50.290 --> 00:20:52.890
events are rare, so it may be a while. But

481
00:20:52.890 --> 00:20:55.290
for now, our study provides an important new

482
00:20:55.290 --> 00:20:57.690
clue in one of Astronomy's biggest problems.

483
00:20:58.010 --> 00:20:59.610
And that's where they leave it.

484
00:21:00.330 --> 00:21:03.270
Andrew Dunkley: Where does that place the

485
00:21:03.430 --> 00:21:05.670
storey? We did a couple of years ago about,

486
00:21:05.870 --> 00:21:08.310
ah, a study into the Hubble tension,

487
00:21:08.410 --> 00:21:11.190
um, trying to understand the differentiation

488
00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:13.030
between the two existing methods where they

489
00:21:13.030 --> 00:21:15.470
said, look, the difference is not that big a

490
00:21:15.470 --> 00:21:17.830
deal. They're both right. So

491
00:21:18.230 --> 00:21:19.910
where does that stand now? Do you remember

492
00:21:19.910 --> 00:21:20.470
talking about that?

493
00:21:20.470 --> 00:21:22.390
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I do remember. Yeah, we've covered it,

494
00:21:22.470 --> 00:21:24.890
certainly covered it before. Um,

495
00:21:25.270 --> 00:21:27.230
so if that's the case, if they're both right,

496
00:21:27.230 --> 00:21:29.030
and I think that was the outcome of that,

497
00:21:29.270 --> 00:21:31.910
then that's pushing you towards new physics

498
00:21:31.910 --> 00:21:33.440
because, um,

499
00:21:36.290 --> 00:21:38.770
to get two different results

500
00:21:39.010 --> 00:21:41.970
for the same thing by two different

501
00:21:42.050 --> 00:21:44.930
methods, both of which use general

502
00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:47.610
relativity as their basis, that is the firm

503
00:21:47.610 --> 00:21:49.650
basis of our understanding of the universe.

504
00:21:50.420 --> 00:21:52.290
Uh, what that suggests is there's something

505
00:21:52.290 --> 00:21:55.050
wrong with general relativity. Now we've

506
00:21:55.050 --> 00:21:57.410
believed that for a long time, but so far,

507
00:21:57.410 --> 00:22:00.370
all the tests, it comes out on top. It comes

508
00:22:00.370 --> 00:22:03.220
out with these incredible, uh,

509
00:22:03.290 --> 00:22:05.890
incredibly precise accuracy in

510
00:22:05.890 --> 00:22:08.570
describing the way the universe works.

511
00:22:09.450 --> 00:22:11.850
Andrew Dunkley: All right, um, watch this space, I suppose.

512
00:22:12.170 --> 00:22:12.650
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

513
00:22:12.650 --> 00:22:15.380
Andrew Dunkley: Where we're at on that. More to come. It's

514
00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:18.090
um, one of those issues that just won't go

515
00:22:18.090 --> 00:22:21.050
away because, uh, well, being human beings we

516
00:22:21.050 --> 00:22:23.410
want to figure everything out so they won't

517
00:22:23.410 --> 00:22:26.170
give up on this. Uh, you can read about

518
00:22:26.170 --> 00:22:28.650
it at the Conversation website or you can

519
00:22:28.650 --> 00:22:30.610
read the paper which was published in the

520
00:22:30.610 --> 00:22:33.330
Astrophysical Journal. This is Space

521
00:22:33.330 --> 00:22:35.390
Nuts. Andrew Dunkley with Professor

522
00:22:35.390 --> 00:22:36.390
Fred Watson Watson.

523
00:22:38.470 --> 00:22:40.510
Professor Fred Watson: I believe that this nation should commit

524
00:22:40.510 --> 00:22:42.790
itself to achieving the goal

525
00:22:43.350 --> 00:22:46.270
before this decade is out of landing a

526
00:22:46.270 --> 00:22:48.710
man on the moon and returning him safely to

527
00:22:48.710 --> 00:22:49.150
the Earth.

528
00:22:49.150 --> 00:22:50.070
Andrew Dunkley: Face nuts.

529
00:22:51.190 --> 00:22:53.430
Now we got a question about the Large

530
00:22:53.510 --> 00:22:56.390
Hadron Collider. Recently they were asking

531
00:22:56.390 --> 00:22:59.390
about the, the speed of two particles hitting

532
00:22:59.390 --> 00:23:00.950
each other at the speed of light. Would that

533
00:23:00.950 --> 00:23:02.390
be twice the speed of light? And the answer

534
00:23:02.390 --> 00:23:05.230
was no. But the Large

535
00:23:05.230 --> 00:23:08.230
Hadron Collider is in the news for a

536
00:23:08.230 --> 00:23:11.030
different, uh, a different reason. They're

537
00:23:11.030 --> 00:23:12.830
shutting it down. It's bye bye

538
00:23:13.870 --> 00:23:16.790
Large Hadron Collider. But not forever. In

539
00:23:16.790 --> 00:23:19.110
fact, um, they're going to do some

540
00:23:19.110 --> 00:23:20.550
renovations. They're going to put a cubby

541
00:23:20.550 --> 00:23:23.070
house on top of it and a kid's playground.

542
00:23:23.230 --> 00:23:24.110
Professor Fred Watson: Grummy flower.

543
00:23:24.670 --> 00:23:26.830
Andrew Dunkley: Little coffee shop next next door.

544
00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:30.840
Professor Fred Watson: It's already got the coffee shop.

545
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:32.120
Andrew Dunkley: Already got the coffee shop.

546
00:23:32.120 --> 00:23:32.760
Professor Fred Watson: Okay.

547
00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:34.640
Andrew Dunkley: They're going to do a bigger coffee shop.

548
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:36.320
That's, that's really what this storey is

549
00:23:36.320 --> 00:23:36.600
about.

550
00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:39.920
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. And the great thing from my point of

551
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:42.880
view is that uh, in, uh, let

552
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:45.519
me see, in Just over three weeks. I'll be

553
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.400
there. Wow. Uh, so, yeah, so I

554
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:48.880
love, I

555
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:50.320
Andrew Dunkley: love the line in this storey on

556
00:23:50.320 --> 00:23:52.960
theuniversetoday.com. uh, see you later.

557
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:55.920
Accelerator. Yes, I

558
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:56.920
think that's very clever.

559
00:23:57.890 --> 00:23:58.570
Professor Fred Watson: It's a nice way to.

560
00:23:58.570 --> 00:23:59.570
Andrew Dunkley: I wish I'd thought of it.

561
00:23:59.730 --> 00:24:02.530
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I do too. Um, yeah, actually,

562
00:24:02.530 --> 00:24:04.610
you've always got to be careful, especially

563
00:24:04.610 --> 00:24:06.810
when you write about this machine, because

564
00:24:06.810 --> 00:24:08.810
Marnie, in one of our earlier tours, when we

565
00:24:08.810 --> 00:24:10.370
visited the Large Hadron Collider,

566
00:24:11.650 --> 00:24:13.970
had a spelling mistake in the word

567
00:24:13.970 --> 00:24:16.970
hadron, uh, which you probably don't need to

568
00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:19.250
think too hard about to work out what it was.

569
00:24:19.250 --> 00:24:21.650
But somebody had to point it out.

570
00:24:22.130 --> 00:24:23.810
Is that what really meant

571
00:24:26.930 --> 00:24:28.130
Andrew Dunkley: Transpose two letters?

572
00:24:28.210 --> 00:24:30.210
Professor Fred Watson: Yes. You transposed two letters.

573
00:24:30.210 --> 00:24:30.770
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

574
00:24:32.150 --> 00:24:34.890
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it would have got some laughs. I think it

575
00:24:34.890 --> 00:24:37.730
did. Yes, I think it did. I'm sure it's

576
00:24:37.730 --> 00:24:39.930
happened before, but, um, Marnie never made

577
00:24:39.930 --> 00:24:41.610
that mistake again. But, yes, we're going

578
00:24:41.610 --> 00:24:43.730
again. And the fact that it switched off

579
00:24:44.210 --> 00:24:47.050
actually makes us hope that we might, uh,

580
00:24:47.050 --> 00:24:49.410
once again get a trip down into,

581
00:24:49.850 --> 00:24:52.690
uh, the tunnel where the accelerator is,

582
00:24:52.690 --> 00:24:55.490
that 27 kilometre long circle of

583
00:24:55.490 --> 00:24:58.350
pipe work, uh, where the subatomic particles

584
00:24:58.350 --> 00:25:00.950
are accelerated, but also perhaps into one of

585
00:25:00.950 --> 00:25:03.870
the experimental, uh, caverns.

586
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.660
Um, the last one we were at was the compact,

587
00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:09.550
uh, Muon Solenoid. This is

588
00:25:09.950 --> 00:25:12.590
this machine that's as big as a small factory

589
00:25:12.910 --> 00:25:15.150
in a giant chamber underground. And it's

590
00:25:15.150 --> 00:25:17.430
called the Compact Muon Solenoid. I love

591
00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:20.350
that. Uh, it's definitely not compact

592
00:25:20.350 --> 00:25:22.910
by our, uh, standards, but it was a fantastic

593
00:25:22.910 --> 00:25:25.030
thing to see. We're hoping we might see that

594
00:25:25.030 --> 00:25:27.670
again, but we'll see. Um, so, yeah, we're

595
00:25:27.670 --> 00:25:29.050
nothing to do with the large. Hunt and

596
00:25:29.050 --> 00:25:32.020
Collider were just, um, cheerleaders, uh,

597
00:25:32.020 --> 00:25:34.610
to bring people to cheer it on. Because one

598
00:25:34.610 --> 00:25:37.290
day we hope this machine might tell us what

599
00:25:37.290 --> 00:25:39.730
dark matter is. And that's actually what this

600
00:25:39.730 --> 00:25:42.600
upgrade's about. Uh, so what's happening? Uh,

601
00:25:42.600 --> 00:25:44.850
it's switched off at the moment. I, uh, think

602
00:25:44.850 --> 00:25:47.850
it is now switched off. Uh, see you later.

603
00:25:47.850 --> 00:25:50.750
Accelerator. It's, um, uh,

604
00:25:50.750 --> 00:25:53.130
due to reopen in 2030,

605
00:25:53.530 --> 00:25:56.450
which will be a new version. It's called the

606
00:25:56.450 --> 00:25:59.290
High Luminosity LHC Large

607
00:25:59.290 --> 00:26:02.010
Hadron Collider. And it's got 10 times

608
00:26:02.650 --> 00:26:05.610
the luminosity of the original machine.

609
00:26:06.310 --> 00:26:09.290
Um, and I think by luminosity,

610
00:26:09.370 --> 00:26:12.250
what particle physicists mean is the

611
00:26:12.250 --> 00:26:15.250
number of particles that you can, uh, sort

612
00:26:15.250 --> 00:26:17.350
of charge around, uh,

613
00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:20.090
the circuit, the 27

614
00:26:20.410 --> 00:26:23.290
kilometre, uh, ring that the

615
00:26:23.290 --> 00:26:25.130
particles charge around,

616
00:26:26.190 --> 00:26:28.770
uh, being accelerated and focused by

617
00:26:28.770 --> 00:26:30.770
superconducting magnets. And I think that's

618
00:26:30.770 --> 00:26:33.070
what's actually being, you know, I think

619
00:26:33.070 --> 00:26:35.350
that's what's being, uh, upgraded.

620
00:26:36.050 --> 00:26:38.750
Um, so I don't think the speed will be

621
00:26:38.750 --> 00:26:41.670
faster. Uh, and if I remember rightly, these

622
00:26:41.830 --> 00:26:43.190
protons are accelerated to

623
00:26:43.190 --> 00:26:46.150
99.99998% of

624
00:26:46.150 --> 00:26:47.630
the speed of light. I think that's the

625
00:26:47.630 --> 00:26:50.390
accurate thing. Uh, so it'll be

626
00:26:50.390 --> 00:26:52.390
probably the same speed but many, many more

627
00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:55.030
particles. And that gives you a much better,

628
00:26:56.090 --> 00:26:58.510
uh, chance of seeing some of the things that

629
00:26:58.510 --> 00:27:01.080
we've missed. We've missed by, uh,

630
00:27:01.150 --> 00:27:04.030
the current version of the lhc, which of

631
00:27:04.030 --> 00:27:06.750
course M is a, ah, triumph

632
00:27:06.750 --> 00:27:09.150
already. And in fact, uh, on the day we're

633
00:27:09.150 --> 00:27:11.790
recording, um, today, 2nd of July,

634
00:27:12.030 --> 00:27:14.870
yesterday was the 12th, sorry,

635
00:27:14.870 --> 00:27:17.670
the 14th anniversary of the discovery of the

636
00:27:17.670 --> 00:27:20.550
Higgs boson, which was done at the Large

637
00:27:20.550 --> 00:27:22.510
Hadron Collider. Wow. So a bit of an

638
00:27:22.510 --> 00:27:23.310
anniversary there.

639
00:27:23.310 --> 00:27:24.710
Andrew Dunkley: That's gone fast, hasn't it?

640
00:27:24.710 --> 00:27:27.350
Professor Fred Watson: Hasn't it gone fast? Yeah, and gosh, I think

641
00:27:27.350 --> 00:27:28.950
we've been talking about it that long as

642
00:27:28.950 --> 00:27:31.770
well, literally and figuratively. Yeah,

643
00:27:32.250 --> 00:27:35.050
that's right, that's right. So,

644
00:27:35.210 --> 00:27:37.930
and of course what we're, and this

645
00:27:38.090 --> 00:27:40.250
ties into our previous storey, what we're all

646
00:27:40.250 --> 00:27:43.210
hoping, uh, for is

647
00:27:43.610 --> 00:27:46.170
that the, uh, new

648
00:27:46.170 --> 00:27:48.810
analysis which will result from

649
00:27:49.050 --> 00:27:51.370
the high luminosity lhc,

650
00:27:52.020 --> 00:27:54.490
uh, will give us insights into everything,

651
00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:56.890
but perhaps in particular the Higgs boson,

652
00:27:57.930 --> 00:28:00.090
and maybe will point the way,

653
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:03.350
uh, as the Conversation piece says, uh, will

654
00:28:03.350 --> 00:28:05.390
point the way to physics beyond the Standard

655
00:28:05.390 --> 00:28:07.870
model, perhaps including evidence for

656
00:28:07.870 --> 00:28:10.630
supersymmetry or the existence of exotic

657
00:28:10.630 --> 00:28:13.270
dark matter particles. And of course, along

658
00:28:13.270 --> 00:28:15.190
the way we hope they'll solve the Hubble

659
00:28:15.190 --> 00:28:16.230
Tension as well.

660
00:28:16.470 --> 00:28:19.110
Andrew Dunkley: Well, yes, let's hope so. Yeah,

661
00:28:19.190 --> 00:28:22.030
yeah, it's um. So how long does this work

662
00:28:22.030 --> 00:28:24.910
take, you reckon? I think it takes quite some

663
00:28:24.910 --> 00:28:25.590
time, yeah.

664
00:28:25.590 --> 00:28:27.870
Professor Fred Watson: Most of the time between now and 2030 when it

665
00:28:27.870 --> 00:28:30.790
comes back on. So, yeah, I mean

666
00:28:30.790 --> 00:28:33.590
it sounds as though, uh, it

667
00:28:33.590 --> 00:28:36.040
is, are going to involve

668
00:28:36.040 --> 00:28:38.680
replacing all the superconducting magnets all

669
00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:41.120
the way around the 27 kilometre ring

670
00:28:42.080 --> 00:28:44.480
and that. Yeah, that's quite a thing.

671
00:28:44.560 --> 00:28:46.240
Andrew Dunkley: The good news is, if you want a

672
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.440
superconducting magnet, there'll be some for

673
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:49.680
sale on the side of the road

674
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.000
in a few years time, probably.

675
00:28:56.320 --> 00:28:59.160
Professor Fred Watson: Um, I beg your pardon, I quoted, uh, it as

676
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:00.720
being from the Conversation, the article I

677
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.200
was reading from, but it's actually Universe

678
00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:02.480
Today.

679
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:04.520
Andrew Dunkley: Universe Today by Alan Boyle.

680
00:29:05.790 --> 00:29:06.110
Professor Fred Watson: Very good.

681
00:29:06.110 --> 00:29:08.590
Andrew Dunkley: All right, we'll watch with interest and

682
00:29:08.590 --> 00:29:11.070
hopefully an upgraded Cafe as well, which

683
00:29:11.070 --> 00:29:13.550
will, um, you know, bring the tourists in big

684
00:29:13.550 --> 00:29:14.430
time, for sure.

685
00:29:15.950 --> 00:29:17.990
I think that brings us to the end of the

686
00:29:17.990 --> 00:29:19.470
show, Fred Watson. Thank you so much.

687
00:29:19.870 --> 00:29:22.030
Professor Fred Watson: Ah, they go so quickly, don't they?

688
00:29:22.030 --> 00:29:24.270
Andrew Dunkley: They don't. They do. They do, yes.

689
00:29:25.090 --> 00:29:27.390
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, but I'll see you next time, I hope.

690
00:29:27.550 --> 00:29:28.510
Andrew Dunkley: I hope so, too.

691
00:29:28.530 --> 00:29:28.850
Professor Fred Watson: Huh?

692
00:29:28.850 --> 00:29:30.350
Andrew Dunkley: Couldn't do this without you, Fred Watson.

693
00:29:31.550 --> 00:29:33.070
Professor Fred Watson: I don't think I could do it without you.

694
00:29:34.090 --> 00:29:35.210
Andrew Dunkley: At least you'd be able to talk about

695
00:29:35.210 --> 00:29:36.590
something. I'd sit here and go, um.

696
00:29:37.930 --> 00:29:38.610
Professor Fred Watson: No, you wouldn't.

697
00:29:38.610 --> 00:29:40.410
Professor Fred Watson: No, no, you wouldn't. No, you can talk.

698
00:29:40.890 --> 00:29:42.890
Andrew Dunkley: I can talk gibberish. I can do that a lot.

699
00:29:43.290 --> 00:29:44.890
Professor Fred Watson: The hind leg off a donkey.

700
00:29:44.890 --> 00:29:46.490
Andrew Dunkley: That's the time I could do that.

701
00:29:46.650 --> 00:29:47.050
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

702
00:29:47.050 --> 00:29:49.050
Andrew Dunkley: I could talk the leg off an iron pot. That's

703
00:29:49.050 --> 00:29:49.690
another one.

704
00:29:50.250 --> 00:29:51.210
Professor Fred Watson: I like that.

705
00:29:51.290 --> 00:29:53.690
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. All right. Thanks, Fred Watson. We'll

706
00:29:53.690 --> 00:29:54.170
see you soon.

707
00:29:54.410 --> 00:29:55.850
Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great. Thanks, Andrew.

708
00:29:56.250 --> 00:29:57.890
Andrew Dunkley: Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at

709
00:29:57.890 --> 00:29:59.330
large. Don't forget to visit our website

710
00:29:59.330 --> 00:30:02.010
between episodes. You can do that and, uh,

711
00:30:02.010 --> 00:30:04.490
maybe if you've got time, wherever you listen

712
00:30:04.490 --> 00:30:07.070
to us, leave review. Reviews are very helpful

713
00:30:07.070 --> 00:30:09.950
because they tell people what you think

714
00:30:09.950 --> 00:30:12.470
of us and that might inspire them to listen.

715
00:30:12.870 --> 00:30:15.730
It might not, depending on what you say. But,

716
00:30:15.730 --> 00:30:18.030
uh, yeah, reviews are very, very good. If you

717
00:30:18.030 --> 00:30:19.950
can, uh, spend a couple of minutes doing that

718
00:30:19.950 --> 00:30:22.390
from wherever you listen to us.

719
00:30:22.570 --> 00:30:24.150
Um, YouTube,

720
00:30:25.490 --> 00:30:28.270
um, Apple Podcasts, Spreaker. There's a.

721
00:30:28.270 --> 00:30:30.830
There's a whole bunch that we're on. And

722
00:30:30.830 --> 00:30:33.030
thanks to Huw in the studio, who couldn't be

723
00:30:33.030 --> 00:30:35.110
with us today because he's dealing with

724
00:30:35.980 --> 00:30:38.740
a dark matter. And from me, Andrew Dunkley.

725
00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:39.420
Professor Fred Watson: Thanks for your company.

726
00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:41.860
Andrew Dunkley: We'll see you in the next episode of Space

727
00:30:41.860 --> 00:30:42.340
Nuts.

728
00:30:42.340 --> 00:30:42.940
Professor Fred Watson: Bye. Bye.

729
00:30:44.060 --> 00:30:46.300
Andrew Dunkley: You've been listening to the Space Nuts

730
00:30:46.300 --> 00:30:49.260
podcast, available at

731
00:30:49.260 --> 00:30:51.180
Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

732
00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:54.180
iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast

733
00:30:54.180 --> 00:30:55.900
player. You can also stream on

734
00:30:55.900 --> 00:30:57.580
demand@bytes.um.com.

735
00:30:57.900 --> 00:30:59.980
Professor Fred Watson: this has been another quality podcast

736
00:30:59.980 --> 00:31:02.140
production from bytes.um com.