Fires on the Moon, Interstellar Glaciers & Mayan Timekeeping Mysteries

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Andrew Dunkley: Ah, hi there. Thanks for joining us on

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another episode of Space Nuts, where we talk

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astronomy and space science. My name is

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Andrew Dunkley, your host, and it's, uh,

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always good to have your company wherever you

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are, whatever you're doing. You might be in

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traffic, you might be in bed, staying awake.

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Um, we generally put people to sleep, but,

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uh, staying awake, um, or you could be

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just hanging around the house doing whatever

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you need to do. Vacuuming, mowing the lawn.

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Yeah, all of that. Uh, coming up in

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this edition, we're going to be talking about

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fires on the moon.

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Professor Fred Watson: What?

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Andrew Dunkley: How? Yes, it's a thing. Yes, it is,

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Jordy. We're

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also. We're also

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talking interstellar glaciers.

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Wow. Uh, the Mayan calendar. And

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another Artemis 2 record that's

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been set. We'll find out all about it on this

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episode of space nuts. 15

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seconds. Guidance is internal.

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Professor Fred Watson: 10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start. Uh, space nuts. 5, 4, 3,

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2. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,

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3, 2, 1.

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Andrew Dunkley: Space nuts. Astronauts report it feels

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good. Back again to help us understand

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all of that is Professor Fred Watson Watson,

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astronomer at large. Hello, Fred Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hi, Andrew. Good to see you. And, um, good to

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speak with you. Chilly day.

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Andrew Dunkley: What's up Jordy's nose today?

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, I think our, uh. Um.

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I think somebody's just arrived at the door.

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Andrew Dunkley: That's usually how he welcomes them.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it is, it is. I might just

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need, um, to go and cheque, actually, if you

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don't mind. Oh, okay.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, we can do that.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. You can talk to yourself for a minute.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I'm very good at talking to myself.

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Yes. Um, Jordy's, um. I don't know what

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kind of terrier he is. He's a tiny little

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dog, but he's very, very loud. And whenever

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anybody turns up, he absolutely goes

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off his buns. And,

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um, when Judy and I visited there late

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last year, we, um. We were welcomed by Jordy

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tearing down the stairs and, um, barked

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like a maniac. But, um, yeah, he's

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harmless. He's absolutely harmless. All

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is well. Fred Watson, is he okay?

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, well, he's all right, yeah. He's, uh.

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The people who turned up at the door, nobody.

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Nobody, um, opened the door for them, so they

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just let themselves in. That's right. Oh,

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right.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well known to us.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Queenslanders do that a lot,

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apparently.

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, do they?

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Andrew Dunkley: When we moved to Queensland in 1987, after we

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got married, um, our neighbours walked in

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and introduced themselves

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Professor Fred Watson: and we

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Andrew Dunkley: thought, oh, that's so weird. But no, it's

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not. It's just the Way Queenslanders are ah

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up in, up in the northern tropics.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Completely different uh, mindset. But um,

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you get used to it. It's, it's a lovely

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lifestyle. Uh, shall we get down to

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business, friend?

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Professor Fred Watson: Well I suppose so. All right, if we

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must.

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Andrew Dunkley: We, we probably should.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Let's start off with this um Storey about

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fires on the moon. Now I've looked at the

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moon many times. I've never seen any brush

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fires or bush fires or forest fires or

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you know, dune fires or mountain

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fires or crater fires. Uh, I

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got a suspicion this has got something to do

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with um, something

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humanity is going to do

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um when they get on the moon.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yep.

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Andrew Dunkley: Let's talk about this because uh, fires on

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the moon sounds a little bit um,

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I don't know, impossible but

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it's a, it's a thing.

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Professor Fred Watson: Or will it is a thing. It's, it's a thing.

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And it's all about understanding how

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fires burn on the moon. Um, it's something

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called the Flammability of

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Materials on the Moon Experiment, uh

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Otherwise abbreviated to FM2. Uh

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developed by NASA uh in a number of their

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research centres, the Glenn Research Centre,

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Johnson Space Centre east, sorry uh

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Case Western Reserve University. What they're

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doing is they're sending uh

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what's called a self contained combustion

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chamber to the moon and it's going on one

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of these commercial lunar payload services

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flights uh that we sort of know

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about from uh, from discussions

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we've had before where the you know, uh,

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basically private companies provide

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hardware uh to uh,

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send on robotic missions to the moon to

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set up things for when humans are exploring

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the moon, um a few years down the track.

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So it's all about um

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safety actually Andrew, uh, that's the

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bottom line for this. It's the uh,

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motivation because

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um, there is a gap in our understanding of

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how fireworks uh

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and that is because we understand how

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fire works here on the Earth. Um how the

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convection brings oxygen into

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the flame and keeps the fire burning. We

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understand how it works in zero

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gravity because experiments have been done

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uh, on the International Space Station

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that uh, allow uh,

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scientists to uh, estimate,

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estimate um basically

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what the behaviour of a fire would be in

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zero gravity. Apparently a candle

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flame in zero gravity is just spherical.

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Andrew Dunkley: I read that um, that's strange. And

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uh, I mean we all know how

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horrible fires can be in terms

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of um, space travel. There have been

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tragedies over the years, um,

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uh, Apollo 1 in particular. But um, uh there

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have been other incidents with fires and

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uh, certain issues. But um,

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what happens on Earth and what happens in

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zero G. We know about

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what happens on the moon, that's

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Professor Fred Watson: what we don't know about. Yeah, uh, and so

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that's the um, that's the reason for these

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tests, uh, because scientists have

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actually raised concerns about the way fire

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might behave on the moon. Because it is

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different when you're in 1/6 of the Earth's

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ah, gravity which is basically lunar

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gravity.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, there is a standard, um,

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that is measured by NASA

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in terms of how things burn. It's called

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NASA

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STD6001B

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and it's what's called a vertical burn test.

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And I'm reading now from uh, a

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Space AstroDailyPod article that describes

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this all very nicely. The current standard is

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a vertical burn test. A 6 inch flame is held

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to the bottom of a vertically mounted

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sample. If the flame climbs more than

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6inc up the sample or if molten

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debris drips off and keeps burning, the

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material fails. It's a straightforward

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repeatable procedure and it's kept crews safe

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on Shuttle International Space Station and

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every commercial vehicle that has followed

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the test has hidden assumptions baked in. The

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buoyancy driven convection will behave the

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same way in flight as it did in the lab for

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low Earth orbit. Engineers have patched

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around this assumption with experience for

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the lunar surface. There is no equivalent

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flight heritage driven fall back on. In other

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words we don't have any experience of how

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things behave in 1/6 gravity.

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Andrew Dunkley: I would assume that knowing um, what we

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know about fire on Earth and in zero

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gravity, with a little bit of gravity on the

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moon, it'd be different again.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Um,

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once again um, looking at uh,

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Space AstroDailyPod piece which is very very

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nicely uh, encapsulates what these

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experiments are about, um, there have

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been tests done

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uh, inside uncrewed,

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um, actually they were the Cygnus ones,

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not the Dragon capsules, Cygnus

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cargo capsules, uh, uh, before they

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re enter and burn up in the atmosphere there

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have been uh, what are called sapphire

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tests, the spacecraft fire safety series.

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I think you and I spoke about that, ah,

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probably a couple of years ago. Um,

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so what you do is you deliberately

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ignite samples of the material, uh,

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and look at how the flames

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behave and sometimes actually they

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spread in the opposite direction to the way

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the airflow is coming. Um, and also

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apparently they burn hotter on thinner

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materials and that's all great but

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that's microgravity, that's effectively zero

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gravity. And it is a different

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physical regime as they put it from partial

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gravity combustion, uh, which is what

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we will experience on the Moon,

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uh, all these items, uh, once again

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a uh, very nice summary here. The flame

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shape, the flow structure, the soot chemistry

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and the spread rate all respond non

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linearly to the gravitational acceleration.

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So uh, you can't really, it's not something

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you can simulate. Um, you can,

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you know, you can certainly simulate

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weightlessness either with, by dropping

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things off big towers. Uh, that's one way of

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simulating weightlessness. Yeah. And it's

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what was in Einstein's head when he worked

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out the special theory, sorry the general

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theory of relativity, how gravity works. And

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then there are those parabolic aircraft

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flights that we often refer to as the vomit

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comet, uh, for um, for humans. But

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none of those are uh, long enough

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period, um, in order to

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simulate how things go when something catches

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fire. Uh and of course they're all

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microgravity. Uh so this

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FM2 experiment is designed to

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be self contained. It's uh, a sealed

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um, chamber contains four solid fuel

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samples. Uh and they will go to one of these

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commercial lunar programme uh,

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landers, uh, on the surface. Um,

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and apparently the samples, the burning

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samples are lit one after another. Uh and

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there are all sorts of cameras and

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radiometers and oxygen sensors,

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temperature gauges, all of that stuff to

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look at the, the flame geometry and uh, how

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much heat comes from it, how much of the

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oxygen is, is consumed. So all

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that is um, is going to teach us

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what might happen if something went wrong.

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When you have astronauts walking on the moon,

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uh, if you have a, you know, some sort of um,

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habitat. Yeah. Where a, where a fire

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is induced or catches fire, whatever.

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Um, we should, from, from these experiments

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we should know how to deal with it, which we

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don't at the moment.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, uh, one of the points in the article I

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thought was interesting was that uh,

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there could be materials that exist on Earth

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that are uh, certified, you know, a grade

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fire retardant, you know, nothing to worry

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about here. That might not be the case with

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the same material on the moon.

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Professor Fred Watson: Exactly. That's right. So that's what this is

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all about. And it is, it's common sense

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really when you think about it. Yeah, it's,

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it's a lot better to send a self

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contained experiment to the moon. Um,

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rather than getting somebody standing on the

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moon to light a match in a habitat and see

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what happens. It's yes, that will not

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be good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And I suppose long term we're going to see

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all sorts of facilities on the moon. We're

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going to have uh, as you said, habitat, but

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there'll be, there'll be labs um,

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um. Um. All sorts of, uh, spaces for all

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sorts of different things. Probably things we

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haven't even thought of yet. Uh, there'll be,

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um. You know, uh. They're talking about

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making rocket fuel on the moon now. There's

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a fire hazard if.

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Professor Fred Watson: If ever there was one. That's right. If

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you're separating hydrogen and oxygen, when

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they come back together they. Yep, there's a

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fire hazard. Absolutely right.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. So there's, there's a lot to take into

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consideration. So it's uh, it's.

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It's obviously something that they really

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need to figure out. And this sounds like a

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very good way of doing it. A controlled

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experiment. Um, and, and

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they. Does it say when they're planning to do

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this? It shouldn't be too long away.

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Professor Fred Watson: No, that's right. I think it's on uh, an

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upcoming uh. Uh, one of these commercial

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flights. I can't see a date in it, uh,

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in this piece. But uh, yeah, I'm sure we'll,

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we'll find about the results when they've.

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When they've actually happened.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, indeed. All right, uh, if you'd like to

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read all about it, you can find that

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storey@space daily.com and you

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could probably find it on the NASA website as

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well.

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This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and

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Professor Fred Watson Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: Tranquilly Base here. The Eagle has landed.

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Space Nuts.

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Andrew Dunkley: Now, Fred Watson, we move from the moon to

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beyond. Uh, we're going way out

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in fact, uh, to interstellar regions

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of the universe, uh, where

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NASA has um,

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discovered galactic ice.

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They're describing them as interstellar

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glaciers.

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Professor Fred Watson: Indeed, that's right. So yes, from fire to

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ice. It's almost like being on

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Iceland where you've got them together.

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Um, and this is um, uh, a storey that

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comes from um, research that

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has been done using a spacecraft that you and

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I, I think we talked about it when it was

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launched, um, but we don't often

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mention it. And it is producing some quite

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significant results. It's called Sphere X

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uh, which is an acronym for

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Spectrophotometer for the History of the

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Universe, Epoch of Reionization

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and ice's Explorer.

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Andrew Dunkley: I would have guessed that.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I'm sure you would if you were, you

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know, 20 years to think about what it might

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be because I certainly wouldn't.

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Um, but what it's been doing is uh, so

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that it's ah, basically a survey spacecraft.

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It's got wide angle telescopes. Uh,

343
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it has um. It's

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basically. It takes images but it takes them

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through. I think it's one Hundred and two

346
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different, different colour

347
00:14:47.310 --> 00:14:50.090
filters, uh, which, which uh,

348
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these colour filters are centred on

349
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uh, key wavelengths in the spectrum, uh,

350
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which allows you to image, you know,

351
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see what, where all the iron

352
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atoms are, see where all the calcium atoms

353
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are, see where all the hydrogen atoms are,

354
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see where all the oxygen atoms are. All of

355
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that stuff comes from this ability

356
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to see the sky in As I said,

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102 colours. Uh, they're in the

358
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infrared. So it sort of mimics the James

359
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Webb telescope. Um, it's

360
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however, as I said, a wide field telescope,

361
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which means it's doing surveys rather than

362
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homing in onto uh,

363
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small areas of space where you want to

364
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magnify things so you can see all the fine

365
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detail. Uh, it was launched um, only a

366
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year ago, a year or so ago, March 11, 20,

367
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20, 25. Um,

368
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and it's uh, already sending back some really

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quite spectacular results. Uh,

370
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so by the end of last year it

371
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had completed uh, uh,

372
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the first of its all sky

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infrared maps of the sky of the

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universe, basically. Um, and it's,

375
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it's basically measured hundreds of millions

376
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of galaxies. Uh, it does it

377
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essentially, uh, in three dimensions rather

378
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than two. Uh, an imaging telescope you might

379
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think, can only see uh, everything

380
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as if it was plastered on the celestial

381
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sphere. And that's an imaginary concept

382
00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:23.680
of uh, you know, where you say everything's

383
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at the same distance and it represents a

384
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sphere and you can measure the positions of

385
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objects on that sphere very accurately in a

386
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science we call astrometry. But with all

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these 102 filters,

388
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um, you can also use this instrument to

389
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get uh, estimates of redshift.

390
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And um, by that I mean the,

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effectively the way the spectrum of a distant

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galaxy is shifted towards the red end of the

393
00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:51.010
spectrum. Uh, and you could do that by

394
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choosing your filters carefully so that

395
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um, as certain features in the spectrum

396
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of a galaxy drop in and out as the

397
00:17:00.170 --> 00:17:03.050
redshift increases, you could get an estimate

398
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of what the redshift is without actually

399
00:17:04.930 --> 00:17:07.470
making a spectrum. It's um, a technique

400
00:17:07.550 --> 00:17:10.510
that's been known for many years,

401
00:17:10.690 --> 00:17:12.530
um, essentially called um,

402
00:17:12.990 --> 00:17:15.510
photometric redshifts. That's what we call

403
00:17:15.510 --> 00:17:18.270
it. Uh, and um, so what they're doing

404
00:17:18.270 --> 00:17:20.910
is basically measuring the 3D positions of

405
00:17:21.310 --> 00:17:24.070
galaxies by the hundreds of millions. Uh, and

406
00:17:24.070 --> 00:17:26.570
that will tell us a lot about um,

407
00:17:28.350 --> 00:17:30.950
the state of the union in uh,

408
00:17:31.070 --> 00:17:33.830
galaxies at very great distances as well as

409
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the nearby ones. And it'll tell us about the

410
00:17:36.390 --> 00:17:39.130
evolution of uh, things like

411
00:17:39.370 --> 00:17:41.650
uh, the amount of water that there is in a

412
00:17:41.650 --> 00:17:44.350
galaxy, the amount of ice, essentially. Um,

413
00:17:44.350 --> 00:17:47.050
but they can also use this instrument not

414
00:17:47.050 --> 00:17:49.330
just to look at distant galaxies, but to look

415
00:17:49.330 --> 00:17:51.850
at the gas clouds in our own galaxy.

416
00:17:52.290 --> 00:17:55.210
Uh, and that's where this storey comes from.

417
00:17:55.210 --> 00:17:57.650
They've looked at what we call m molecular

418
00:17:57.650 --> 00:18:00.410
clouds, which you might not be surprised to

419
00:18:00.410 --> 00:18:03.370
hear are clouds of molecules. Uh, and

420
00:18:03.370 --> 00:18:06.110
um, they are, they're where we think

421
00:18:06.110 --> 00:18:08.670
stars are born, uh, giant molecular

422
00:18:08.670 --> 00:18:11.630
clouds. Um, they've looked at some of

423
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the regions uh, of the Milky Way which are

424
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richest in these clouds of gas.

425
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Uh, and um, essentially use the

426
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fact that infrared can penetrate

427
00:18:22.510 --> 00:18:25.390
dust rather well. At least near infrared

428
00:18:25.390 --> 00:18:27.390
can. As we see when we look at some of the

429
00:18:27.390 --> 00:18:30.050
pictures from the James Webb telescope. Uh,

430
00:18:30.050 --> 00:18:32.750
that um, uh, dust penetrating ability

431
00:18:32.750 --> 00:18:34.950
allows you to see deep into some of these

432
00:18:35.030 --> 00:18:37.110
giant molecular clouds which are otherwise

433
00:18:37.270 --> 00:18:39.990
opaque to visible light. And then you can

434
00:18:39.990 --> 00:18:42.710
look at what sort of chemicals are there

435
00:18:42.710 --> 00:18:45.530
and what sort of ices there are,

436
00:18:45.530 --> 00:18:48.390
uh, in um, these

437
00:18:48.390 --> 00:18:51.270
clouds. Um, and the ice we know

438
00:18:51.270 --> 00:18:54.150
from other studies the ice tends to form on

439
00:18:55.430 --> 00:18:58.190
dust grains. These are tiny dust grains, we

440
00:18:58.190 --> 00:19:00.830
call them dust. It's really smoke, uh, in

441
00:19:00.830 --> 00:19:03.630
space because smoke here on Earth is solid

442
00:19:03.630 --> 00:19:06.220
particles, very, very tiny. Um,

443
00:19:06.570 --> 00:19:09.390
uh, that's how dust exists in space,

444
00:19:09.390 --> 00:19:12.270
in these very tiny particles which are often

445
00:19:12.510 --> 00:19:15.310
coated with uh, ices because the ice

446
00:19:15.310 --> 00:19:18.110
condenses on these cold

447
00:19:18.110 --> 00:19:20.550
dust particles. One of my former colleagues,

448
00:19:20.550 --> 00:19:22.830
uh, somebody I actually studied with when I

449
00:19:22.830 --> 00:19:25.390
was at uni about 100 years ago, uh, has spent

450
00:19:25.390 --> 00:19:28.190
his career in the United States, uh, looking

451
00:19:28.190 --> 00:19:29.550
at this kind of thing, looking at

452
00:19:29.550 --> 00:19:31.630
interstellar dust and interstellar. I.

453
00:19:33.040 --> 00:19:34.080
Excuse me. I don't think he's actually

454
00:19:34.080 --> 00:19:36.600
involved with this research. Uh, but he would

455
00:19:36.600 --> 00:19:38.360
have said he would certainly understand and

456
00:19:38.360 --> 00:19:39.960
probably knows the people who are working on

457
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.800
it, ah, would understand the results. So what

458
00:19:42.800 --> 00:19:45.760
they found is um, a whole

459
00:19:45.760 --> 00:19:48.400
range of different, uh, molecules

460
00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.280
as well as water ice. Um, there are,

461
00:19:51.710 --> 00:19:54.320
uh, some of the complex

462
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:57.360
molecules like polycyclic aromatic

463
00:19:57.360 --> 00:19:59.610
hydrocarbons. And these are things that are

464
00:19:59.610 --> 00:20:01.890
uh, I mean the carbon containing, which is

465
00:20:02.130 --> 00:20:04.690
why they are, ah, called organic molecules.

466
00:20:05.110 --> 00:20:07.850
Um, and finding those really

467
00:20:07.850 --> 00:20:09.930
gives you an insight into chemistry that goes

468
00:20:09.930 --> 00:20:12.530
on inside some of these giant molecular

469
00:20:12.530 --> 00:20:14.530
clouds. And indeed, we know from other

470
00:20:14.530 --> 00:20:17.330
studies that uh, some of those ices represent

471
00:20:17.730 --> 00:20:20.610
the building blocks of life, uh, that we find

472
00:20:20.610 --> 00:20:22.530
all kinds of molecules that are important in

473
00:20:22.530 --> 00:20:24.850
life processes. So we haven't discovered life

474
00:20:24.850 --> 00:20:26.570
yet, but we discovered the, the building

475
00:20:26.570 --> 00:20:29.490
blocks. Uh, and uh, and the point I

476
00:20:29.490 --> 00:20:31.010
was going to make, the point of this storey

477
00:20:31.090 --> 00:20:33.210
is there are huge quantities out there, more

478
00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:34.690
than anybody expected.

479
00:20:36.130 --> 00:20:38.650
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, we, we have talked about the fact that

480
00:20:38.650 --> 00:20:41.490
water is plentiful in the universe.

481
00:20:41.490 --> 00:20:44.170
That's certainly something that's becoming

482
00:20:44.170 --> 00:20:47.010
more and more evident. But this sheds a whole

483
00:20:47.010 --> 00:20:49.490
new light on it. Like

484
00:20:50.530 --> 00:20:53.110
it's out there in a. In abundance.

485
00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:56.550
Professor Fred Watson: Exactly. That's right. Um, I mean it.

486
00:20:56.950 --> 00:20:59.540
As you and I have said many times, the um,

487
00:20:59.990 --> 00:21:02.350
most common two element molecule in the whole

488
00:21:02.350 --> 00:21:05.350
universe is water, H2O. And

489
00:21:05.350 --> 00:21:07.270
so it shouldn't surprise us that we've got

490
00:21:07.590 --> 00:21:10.030
ice everywhere. I mean it's the same in our

491
00:21:10.030 --> 00:21:12.390
own solar system. We didn't know until

492
00:21:12.950 --> 00:21:15.350
comparatively recently that ice is abundant,

493
00:21:15.350 --> 00:21:18.110
particularly in the moons of the outer

494
00:21:18.110 --> 00:21:20.340
planets, uh, Saturn,

495
00:21:20.850 --> 00:21:23.220
um, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune.

496
00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:25.500
They've all got moons that are very icy. And

497
00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:27.420
then you go out to the Kuiper Belt and the

498
00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:29.780
Trans Neptunian objects, they're all icy too.

499
00:21:29.910 --> 00:21:29.920
Andrew Dunkley: Ah.

500
00:21:30.250 --> 00:21:33.020
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, as are the comets that reside in the

501
00:21:33.020 --> 00:21:35.580
Oort cloud. So it's everywhere. Water is

502
00:21:35.580 --> 00:21:36.740
absolutely everywhere.

503
00:21:36.820 --> 00:21:39.500
Andrew Dunkley: And the liquid oceans in the um, ice

504
00:21:39.500 --> 00:21:42.460
moons and uh, the list goes on. And

505
00:21:42.460 --> 00:21:45.340
of course the way water is ended up

506
00:21:45.340 --> 00:21:47.640
in certain places. One

507
00:21:49.080 --> 00:21:51.240
theory uh, we talked about some time back is

508
00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:53.200
that uh, when Earth, uh, formed the water was

509
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:55.960
already here because like this

510
00:21:56.120 --> 00:21:58.320
where water is attached to those dust

511
00:21:58.320 --> 00:22:00.920
particles, dust molecules.

512
00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:03.800
Same with all the material that made Earth.

513
00:22:03.800 --> 00:22:06.680
And it's just eventually, as conditions

514
00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:09.520
changed, seeped into the places where

515
00:22:09.520 --> 00:22:12.240
it's now become oceans and clouds and

516
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.080
rivers and created a whole ecosystem.

517
00:22:15.080 --> 00:22:18.040
Professor Fred Watson: It's exactly. That's right. That's certainly.

518
00:22:18.120 --> 00:22:20.680
So we think maybe the worst the Earth's water

519
00:22:21.080 --> 00:22:22.720
has two sources, one of which you've

520
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.640
mentioned, it's actually hydrolated

521
00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:27.800
rocks that um, formed the Earth,

522
00:22:28.360 --> 00:22:30.480
but also the possibility that some of it came

523
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.040
from comets. And we've discussed one of the

524
00:22:33.040 --> 00:22:34.880
problems with that theory and that um,

525
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:37.440
sometimes the comets, uh, heavy water to

526
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:40.050
normal water ratio doesn't match what the

527
00:22:40.050 --> 00:22:43.050
oceans of the Earth have. Uh, and I

528
00:22:43.050 --> 00:22:45.330
think there are some comets that do, but some

529
00:22:45.330 --> 00:22:47.370
don't. So it's kind of open question.

530
00:22:47.770 --> 00:22:49.370
Andrew Dunkley: Doesn't match on Mars either.

531
00:22:49.530 --> 00:22:51.330
Professor Fred Watson: Compared to Earth, I believe not. That's

532
00:22:51.330 --> 00:22:52.040
right, yeah.

533
00:22:52.040 --> 00:22:54.250
Andrew Dunkley: Ah, it's all fascinating. I love it. Really.

534
00:22:54.250 --> 00:22:56.010
You didn't think water was so interesting,

535
00:22:56.010 --> 00:22:58.250
but it's pretty, pretty amazing stuff.

536
00:22:58.810 --> 00:23:01.410
Yeah. Great storey this one. You can read

537
00:23:01.410 --> 00:23:04.050
it@fizz.org or you can read the paper that's

538
00:23:04.050 --> 00:23:06.330
been published recently at the

539
00:23:06.330 --> 00:23:08.170
Astrophysical Journal

540
00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:11.740
Space Nuts. This is with Andrew Dunkley and

541
00:23:11.740 --> 00:23:13.540
Professor Fred Watson Watson.

542
00:23:15.940 --> 00:23:18.340
Professor Fred Watson: Okay. We checked all four systems and team

543
00:23:18.340 --> 00:23:19.940
with a go Space Nuts.

544
00:23:20.180 --> 00:23:22.260
Andrew Dunkley: Righto. Fred Watson. Couple of Storeys to

545
00:23:22.340 --> 00:23:24.340
finish up a couple of quick ones.

546
00:23:24.740 --> 00:23:26.980
Um, I was reading an article the other day

547
00:23:26.980 --> 00:23:29.220
and it just sort of jumped out at me. A new

548
00:23:29.620 --> 00:23:32.340
uh, paper has been published after

549
00:23:32.340 --> 00:23:35.060
a study into um, the way the

550
00:23:35.060 --> 00:23:37.980
Mayans used to calculate time

551
00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:40.440
and used mathematics to, to

552
00:23:40.780 --> 00:23:43.720
um, predict um, things that most

553
00:23:43.800 --> 00:23:45.440
civilizations would have thought were pretty

554
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:47.240
random and damn scary like

555
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:50.680
eclipses and uh, seasons

556
00:23:50.760 --> 00:23:53.560
and the list goes on. Um, but what the

557
00:23:53.560 --> 00:23:55.880
Mayans did was probably

558
00:23:56.520 --> 00:23:59.320
far superior to most other civilizations.

559
00:23:59.320 --> 00:24:00.760
Their mathematics was

560
00:24:02.280 --> 00:24:04.680
beyond comprehension for most of us. I think

561
00:24:05.040 --> 00:24:07.720
um, this is all brand new information. I know

562
00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:09.920
we know about how clever they were but this

563
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:12.450
kind of sheds a bit, bit of new light onto it

564
00:24:12.450 --> 00:24:13.290
by the look of things.

565
00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:16.810
Professor Fred Watson: Um, that's correct.

566
00:24:19.290 --> 00:24:21.970
It's um, the result of some

567
00:24:21.970 --> 00:24:24.970
research that uh, goes

568
00:24:25.770 --> 00:24:28.530
back to a document called the Dresden

569
00:24:28.530 --> 00:24:30.650
Codex, uh, which is

570
00:24:31.930 --> 00:24:34.810
essentially a manuscript that dates from the

571
00:24:34.810 --> 00:24:37.530
Maya civilization which was

572
00:24:37.530 --> 00:24:40.390
actually extremely long lived. Um, I

573
00:24:40.390 --> 00:24:42.990
think it sort of kicked off uh, something

574
00:24:43.070 --> 00:24:46.030
like 2000 BC or

575
00:24:46.030 --> 00:24:48.830
BCE and uh, lasted until the

576
00:24:48.910 --> 00:24:51.630
1600s, uh uh, AD

577
00:24:51.790 --> 00:24:54.680
or CE common era. And um,

578
00:24:55.470 --> 00:24:58.190
so that's perhaps a hint

579
00:24:58.270 --> 00:25:00.190
as to why their

580
00:25:00.590 --> 00:25:03.150
mathematics and astronomy were

581
00:25:03.790 --> 00:25:06.300
so effective because they

582
00:25:06.540 --> 00:25:09.210
had a long long time uh,

583
00:25:09.340 --> 00:25:11.980
to count the years between certain

584
00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:14.780
events and to um, you

585
00:25:14.780 --> 00:25:17.500
know, do that over many many

586
00:25:18.140 --> 00:25:20.780
years so that you get a really

587
00:25:20.780 --> 00:25:23.420
accurate idea. And the kind of thing I'm

588
00:25:23.420 --> 00:25:26.140
thinking of Andrew is the um, lunar

589
00:25:26.140 --> 00:25:28.860
cycle. Uh, the moon has a cycle of

590
00:25:28.860 --> 00:25:31.790
18.6 years and on that

591
00:25:31.790 --> 00:25:34.630
scale eclipses more or less repeat

592
00:25:35.670 --> 00:25:38.190
throughout the year. Uh, they don't exactly

593
00:25:38.190 --> 00:25:40.350
repeat so you don't get total eclipses

594
00:25:40.350 --> 00:25:42.790
occurring in exactly the same place. But

595
00:25:43.450 --> 00:25:46.430
uh, you can use that cycle in

596
00:25:46.430 --> 00:25:49.230
order to predict when there are uh,

597
00:25:49.230 --> 00:25:51.630
likely to be eclipses. So if you've got a

598
00:25:51.630 --> 00:25:53.870
long established civilization with a long

599
00:25:53.870 --> 00:25:56.550
memory uh, that 18.6

600
00:25:57.150 --> 00:25:59.390
year cycle would be well known and well

601
00:25:59.390 --> 00:26:01.390
understood. Uh, and I think

602
00:26:01.930 --> 00:26:04.670
um, what's um, made the particular

603
00:26:04.830 --> 00:26:06.510
study that we're talking about, it's uh,

604
00:26:06.510 --> 00:26:09.190
published in the journal Science Advances is

605
00:26:09.190 --> 00:26:11.750
that some of the tables that are in the

606
00:26:11.750 --> 00:26:14.430
Dresden Codex uh have

607
00:26:14.430 --> 00:26:17.310
now been interpreted as being the

608
00:26:18.350 --> 00:26:21.150
method um, by which the Maya people actually

609
00:26:21.390 --> 00:26:23.150
did do things like eclipse

610
00:26:23.870 --> 00:26:26.430
predicting eclipses. And

611
00:26:26.990 --> 00:26:28.900
it differs from from uh,

612
00:26:29.790 --> 00:26:32.140
uh, what people thought happened. People

613
00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:34.140
thought these tables were just sort of one

614
00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:36.780
off things that um, didn't really

615
00:26:36.940 --> 00:26:38.820
talk to you know, have anything to do with

616
00:26:38.820 --> 00:26:40.860
each other, the tabulated information.

617
00:26:41.580 --> 00:26:44.540
But it now looks as though it's uh, much more

618
00:26:44.540 --> 00:26:46.380
cat clever than that. A kind of iterative

619
00:26:46.380 --> 00:26:49.340
approach with tables that Overlap. And

620
00:26:50.050 --> 00:26:52.740
um, basically as time goes on you

621
00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:55.540
eliminate any kind of errors uh, that might

622
00:26:55.540 --> 00:26:57.860
be there until you end up with something very

623
00:26:57.860 --> 00:27:00.690
accurate in indeed. Um, yeah. So

624
00:27:00.690 --> 00:27:03.140
it's quite an interesting storey, uh,

625
00:27:03.570 --> 00:27:05.250
for people who are interested in

626
00:27:05.250 --> 00:27:07.530
archaeoastronomy, which we are of course on

627
00:27:07.530 --> 00:27:08.050
space age.

628
00:27:08.050 --> 00:27:10.770
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I think it talks about the

629
00:27:10.770 --> 00:27:13.730
minds having two completely

630
00:27:13.730 --> 00:27:16.450
different systems, but when they put them

631
00:27:16.450 --> 00:27:18.290
together and looked at them they went, hey,

632
00:27:19.010 --> 00:27:21.730
wait a minute, they work together and

633
00:27:21.890 --> 00:27:24.530
they are so incredibly accurate.

634
00:27:25.470 --> 00:27:28.470
And um, it opened up a whole

635
00:27:28.470 --> 00:27:31.150
new realm of uh, understanding about how the

636
00:27:31.150 --> 00:27:34.110
minds did what they did. Uh, and

637
00:27:34.110 --> 00:27:35.870
I suppose when you think about it, they had

638
00:27:35.870 --> 00:27:37.910
4,000 years, as you said, they had a long

639
00:27:37.910 --> 00:27:40.430
period of time to collate this data.

640
00:27:41.230 --> 00:27:43.710
So, um, yeah, pretty amazing stuff.

641
00:27:44.350 --> 00:27:47.070
And it brings me back to that old chestnut

642
00:27:47.070 --> 00:27:49.070
that we assume we are all

643
00:27:49.870 --> 00:27:52.630
knowledgeable, we are the cleverest humans

644
00:27:52.630 --> 00:27:55.430
that ever existed. We're not, we're no more

645
00:27:55.590 --> 00:27:58.310
intelligent than the first humans.

646
00:27:58.470 --> 00:28:01.350
We've just progressed over time

647
00:28:01.350 --> 00:28:04.110
to reach the point we are. But the Mayans are

648
00:28:04.110 --> 00:28:06.520
exhibiting an intelligence that um,

649
00:28:06.550 --> 00:28:09.350
predates, um, the modern

650
00:28:09.350 --> 00:28:11.510
era if you like. And

651
00:28:12.550 --> 00:28:15.070
they've shown that the intelligence of Homo

652
00:28:15.070 --> 00:28:17.830
sapiens is long lived. It's not just

653
00:28:17.830 --> 00:28:19.670
something that's happened in the last few

654
00:28:19.670 --> 00:28:22.040
hundred years. It's, it's been,

655
00:28:23.560 --> 00:28:26.000
it's always been there, I guess, is what I'm

656
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:26.280
saying.

657
00:28:26.840 --> 00:28:29.440
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. So it's, that's Homo

658
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:32.360
sapiens. That's right. It's uh, it's. We

659
00:28:32.360 --> 00:28:35.160
are gifted with um, a brain of 100

660
00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:37.880
billion neurons, uh, which

661
00:28:37.940 --> 00:28:40.720
um, can still outdo computers and

662
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:43.490
AI although of course AI is catching up. Uh,

663
00:28:43.490 --> 00:28:46.120
but it's still not human. Um, and

664
00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:48.150
uh, I don't think it ever will be.

665
00:28:49.030 --> 00:28:51.430
Andrew Dunkley: I hope not, I hope not.

666
00:28:52.070 --> 00:28:53.950
Judy and I read an article the other day

667
00:28:53.950 --> 00:28:56.710
about um, how they're going to use

668
00:28:56.710 --> 00:28:59.250
AI robots, uh,

669
00:28:59.670 --> 00:29:02.390
in nursing homes in the not too distant

670
00:29:02.390 --> 00:29:05.110
future to help people with

671
00:29:06.390 --> 00:29:09.270
simple, um, things like uh, communication.

672
00:29:09.270 --> 00:29:11.430
Just having a conversation because they get

673
00:29:11.430 --> 00:29:14.360
lonely. Um, and they're going

674
00:29:14.360 --> 00:29:17.240
to use AI robots to do things like

675
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:20.000
that. They'll be able to have intelligent

676
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:23.960
one on one conversations with a

677
00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:26.960
human being like this just that blows my

678
00:29:27.360 --> 00:29:29.360
mind. I know you can kind of do that at the

679
00:29:29.360 --> 00:29:31.320
moment with, you know, your Google homes and

680
00:29:31.320 --> 00:29:32.960
all these, but this is a whole new level.

681
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:34.000
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

682
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:36.520
Andrew Dunkley: And it looks like they're going to roll that

683
00:29:36.520 --> 00:29:39.320
out in parts of Australia in the not too

684
00:29:39.320 --> 00:29:42.000
distant future. So, yeah, it's a brave new

685
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.840
world. Um, just. I hope

686
00:29:44.840 --> 00:29:46.760
they remember the Three Laws. We better not

687
00:29:46.760 --> 00:29:47.840
forget that. Yeah.

688
00:29:48.080 --> 00:29:49.120
Professor Fred Watson: Of robotics.

689
00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:51.360
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, the three Laws of robotics.

690
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:52.960
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Yeah.

691
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:54.800
Andrew Dunkley: But if you want to read about that Storey,

692
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:57.713
it's uh, @futura,

693
00:29:58.187 --> 00:30:00.920
uh-sciences.com about

694
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:03.480
the Mayan calendar and their mathematical

695
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:04.000
brilliance.

696
00:30:04.560 --> 00:30:06.400
One quick one to finish off, Fred Watson.

697
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:09.000
We're going back to Artemis 2. Uh, we talked

698
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:11.750
about uh, not so long ago. Um, not like the

699
00:30:11.750 --> 00:30:13.390
whole mission and everything they did, but

700
00:30:13.390 --> 00:30:16.230
the fact that they, the, the astronauts

701
00:30:16.230 --> 00:30:18.790
on that particular mission were the

702
00:30:19.350 --> 00:30:21.790
humans that achieved the furthest distance

703
00:30:21.790 --> 00:30:24.630
from humanity in history because of how

704
00:30:24.630 --> 00:30:27.030
far out they had to go to loop back around

705
00:30:27.110 --> 00:30:29.430
the moon. But now they've made another

706
00:30:29.750 --> 00:30:32.630
quirky little um, discovery about a record

707
00:30:32.630 --> 00:30:34.990
that was set that somebody just by chance

708
00:30:34.990 --> 00:30:36.950
decided to follow up and went oh, hang on a

709
00:30:36.950 --> 00:30:39.780
minute, I've actually found something. What's

710
00:30:39.780 --> 00:30:40.420
this one about?

711
00:30:41.140 --> 00:30:43.820
Professor Fred Watson: Well it goes back to um, one of the

712
00:30:43.820 --> 00:30:46.300
veteran commentators on space flight and

713
00:30:46.300 --> 00:30:48.820
satellites. Somebody whose work over the

714
00:30:49.060 --> 00:30:51.620
decades has been invaluable in telling us

715
00:30:51.620 --> 00:30:54.299
what the, you know, how crowded space is and

716
00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:55.660
things like that. His name's Jonathan

717
00:30:55.660 --> 00:30:58.420
McDowell. He um, is

718
00:30:58.420 --> 00:31:01.380
always, I think his head is full of

719
00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:04.020
numbers that ah, relate to spacecraft.

720
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:07.470
Uh, but he noted that

721
00:31:07.740 --> 00:31:08.560
um,

722
00:31:10.830 --> 00:31:13.310
there is something different

723
00:31:14.350 --> 00:31:17.190
from what was being widely touted during the

724
00:31:17.190 --> 00:31:19.950
Artemis mission. And that is that

725
00:31:20.270 --> 00:31:22.790
the distance between the humans on board

726
00:31:22.790 --> 00:31:25.710
Artemis and uh, the

727
00:31:25.710 --> 00:31:27.950
humans on the International Space Station

728
00:31:28.430 --> 00:31:31.170
was a record for the separation of, of

729
00:31:31.170 --> 00:31:32.530
humans. And it was actually

730
00:31:32.530 --> 00:31:35.650
419,581

731
00:31:35.650 --> 00:31:38.210
kilometres. That's the integrity to

732
00:31:38.370 --> 00:31:40.980
International Space station distance. Um,

733
00:31:42.050 --> 00:31:44.810
260,715 and a half

734
00:31:44.810 --> 00:31:47.510
miles if you want that. But um,

735
00:31:47.510 --> 00:31:50.290
Jonathan McDowell took a closer

736
00:31:50.290 --> 00:31:52.930
look at what was in space at the time and

737
00:31:52.930 --> 00:31:55.320
realised that uh,

738
00:31:55.650 --> 00:31:57.230
the um,

739
00:31:58.230 --> 00:32:00.470
Chinese space station

740
00:32:00.470 --> 00:32:03.230
Tiangong, uh, was further

741
00:32:03.230 --> 00:32:06.190
away with its three taikonauts on board. In

742
00:32:06.190 --> 00:32:08.950
fact, um, it's about 62

743
00:32:09.270 --> 00:32:11.630
kilometres further away at

744
00:32:11.630 --> 00:32:14.790
419,643

745
00:32:14.790 --> 00:32:17.110
kilometres. So that's the maximum separation

746
00:32:17.110 --> 00:32:19.590
of humans. It uh, was between Chinese

747
00:32:19.830 --> 00:32:22.790
taikonauts on Tiangong and Hume and

748
00:32:23.050 --> 00:32:25.930
the ah, Artemis crew on board

749
00:32:26.410 --> 00:32:29.370
Integrity. Uh, it's

750
00:32:29.370 --> 00:32:32.330
very typical of uh, Jonathan McDowell to

751
00:32:32.890 --> 00:32:35.690
pull little statistics like this

752
00:32:35.690 --> 00:32:38.020
out of the air. But um,

753
00:32:39.050 --> 00:32:41.600
he was interviewed by Space.com uh,

754
00:32:41.770 --> 00:32:44.490
and um, they asked him lots of questions like

755
00:32:44.490 --> 00:32:47.130
is this significant, this Artemis 2 record?

756
00:32:47.690 --> 00:32:50.150
And what he said was, was uh, I think quite

757
00:32:50.150 --> 00:32:51.710
profound in its own way. I think the

758
00:32:51.710 --> 00:32:54.470
significance is that it's the beginning of a

759
00:32:54.470 --> 00:32:57.230
shift from how far from Earth are our

760
00:32:57.230 --> 00:33:00.190
most distant people to how spread out

761
00:33:00.190 --> 00:33:03.190
is human Civilization. Um, and he said

762
00:33:03.190 --> 00:33:05.510
there may come a day when it's Mercury to the

763
00:33:05.510 --> 00:33:07.950
moons of Saturn, which is true.

764
00:33:08.110 --> 00:33:10.990
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. I was going to actually suggest that,

765
00:33:11.050 --> 00:33:13.670
uh, when we go to Mars, the records will be

766
00:33:13.670 --> 00:33:16.600
set there. Um, and it'll just

767
00:33:16.600 --> 00:33:18.960
keep growing. And I'd say In

768
00:33:19.600 --> 00:33:22.520
the next one or 200 years

769
00:33:22.520 --> 00:33:25.120
we'll probably have people on Mercury at the

770
00:33:25.120 --> 00:33:27.040
same time as we have people on Pluto or

771
00:33:27.040 --> 00:33:30.000
something like that. It's very

772
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.640
possible. Uh, so the numbers will just keep

773
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:33.040
growing.

774
00:33:33.760 --> 00:33:34.240
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

775
00:33:34.800 --> 00:33:36.800
Andrew Dunkley: And in time to come they'll probably go

776
00:33:36.800 --> 00:33:38.720
beyond that too. Who knows?

777
00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:41.030
Professor Fred Watson: One day perhaps, if we don't

778
00:33:42.780 --> 00:33:45.020
do ourselves a fatal injury before then.

779
00:33:45.100 --> 00:33:45.980
Yeah, yeah.

780
00:33:45.980 --> 00:33:48.620
Andrew Dunkley: Like Buster, um, poofu valve, as we're.

781
00:33:49.020 --> 00:33:49.500
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

782
00:33:49.580 --> 00:33:51.300
Andrew Dunkley: Running around the solar system. Yeah. Who

783
00:33:51.300 --> 00:33:51.660
knows?

784
00:33:52.080 --> 00:33:54.580
Um, great, Storey, if you'd like to read

785
00:33:54.580 --> 00:33:56.740
about the statistical separation of human

786
00:33:56.740 --> 00:33:59.300
beings, it's, uh, as Fred Watson said, It's

787
00:33:59.300 --> 00:34:00.780
Space.com

788
00:34:02.060 --> 00:34:04.420
and we're all done. Fred Watson, thank you

789
00:34:04.420 --> 00:34:04.860
very much.

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00:34:05.420 --> 00:34:07.660
Professor Fred Watson: Great pleasure, Andrew. Always good to chat

791
00:34:07.660 --> 00:34:09.660
over these things. And I, uh, look forward to

792
00:34:09.970 --> 00:34:11.890
talking about some questions with you at some

793
00:34:11.890 --> 00:34:12.610
time down the track.

794
00:34:12.850 --> 00:34:14.610
Andrew Dunkley: I think we'll do that very, very soon.

795
00:34:14.610 --> 00:34:17.160
Probably sooner than most people think. Uh,

796
00:34:17.160 --> 00:34:18.290
thanks, Fred Watson. Professor Fred Watson

797
00:34:18.290 --> 00:34:19.970
Watson, Astronomer at large. Don't forget to

798
00:34:19.970 --> 00:34:21.930
visit us online while you're on the

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interwebs, uh, at SpaceNuts IO

800
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and Space Nuts. Dot, uh, SpaceNuts

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podcast.com and cheque it out. You might like

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Support our podcast button. You might like to

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AMA M button up the top. That's Ask me

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anything. Uh, you can sign up for Astronomy

807
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D. You can visit our shop and buy yourself a

808
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hoodie. It's coming up on winter in

809
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Australia, so, you know, you might need one

810
00:34:47.190 --> 00:34:49.070
of those. Uh, or you can buy yourself a T

811
00:34:49.070 --> 00:34:51.110
shirt as it gets warmer in the northern

812
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hemisphere and plenty of other stuff at our

813
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shop. And, uh, yeah, it's

814
00:34:55.550 --> 00:34:58.190
all@spacenutspodcast.com

815
00:34:58.910 --> 00:35:01.120
and thanks to Huw in the studio. Funny, uh,

816
00:35:01.510 --> 00:35:04.110
Storey, he saw us log in so he logged out.

817
00:35:04.270 --> 00:35:06.830
And from me, Andrew Dunkley, thanks for your

818
00:35:06.830 --> 00:35:08.890
company. We'll see you on the next episode of

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00:35:08.890 --> 00:35:09.570
Space Nuts.

820
00:35:09.570 --> 00:35:09.850
Professor Fred Watson: Bye.

821
00:35:09.850 --> 00:35:12.730
Andrew Dunkley: Bye. You've been listening to

822
00:35:12.730 --> 00:35:14.210
the Space Nuts podcast,

823
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available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast

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demand@bytes.com. this has been another

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