April 10, 2025

Dust Devils, Cosmic Conundrums & the Quest to Clean Space Junk

Dust Devils, Cosmic Conundrums & the Quest to Clean Space Junk

Space Nuts Episode 511: Dust Devils on Mars, Space Junk Solutions, and Galaxy Growth Conundrums
In this captivating episode of Space Nuts, host Heidi Campo fills in for Andrew Dunkley, joining astronomer Professor Fred Watson to explore some of the...

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Space Nuts Episode 511: Dust Devils on Mars, Space Junk Solutions, and Galaxy Growth Conundrums
In this captivating episode of Space Nuts, host Heidi Campo fills in for Andrew Dunkley, joining astronomer Professor Fred Watson to explore some of the most intriguing cosmic topics. From the fascinating dust devils observed on Mars to innovative solutions for space debris and the surprising behavior of distant galaxies, this episode is packed with insights that will leave you pondering the mysteries of the universe.
Episode Highlights:
- Dust Devils on Mars: Heidi and Fred delve into the unique phenomenon of Martian dust devils, discussing how they differ from those on Earth and their significant impact on Mars' surface, including the surprising discovery of lightning within these swirling dust columns.
- Space Junk Solutions: The duo examines the growing problem of space debris and introduces a groundbreaking technology from Perseus Space that utilizes electrodynamic tethers to help clean up our orbits, offering a sustainable approach to managing space junk.
- Galaxy Growth Conundrums: Fred shares insights from the latest findings of the James Webb Space Telescope, revealing unexpected results about the growth of early galaxies and the implications for our understanding of cosmic evolution.
- Multiverse Theories: The conversation takes a speculative turn as Heidi and Fred discuss the intriguing concept of the multiverse and how it challenges our understanding of the cosmos and the laws of physics.
For more Space Nuts, including our continually updating newsfeed and to listen to all our episodes, visit our website. Follow us on social media at SpaceNutsPod on Facebook, X, YouTube Music Music, Tumblr, Instagram, and TikTok. We love engaging with our community, so be sure to drop us a message or comment on your favorite platform.
If you’d like to help support Space Nuts and join our growing family of insiders for commercial-free episodes and more, visit spacenutspodcast.com/about
Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
(00:00) Professor Fred Watson joins us to discuss the latest Space Nuts podcast
(00:40) It's been quite windy here, but the weather's been nice
(01:04) The Spaceflight Human Optimization and Performance Summit is happening this month
(02:18) Fred Seibert talks about light pollution in Arizona
(03:41) People may not be as familiar with some of the dust storms on Mars
(11:47) Mars has such a thin atmosphere that it's not a place to colonize
(13:23) New technology could help us deal with space debris and junk in orbit
(15:52) Perseus Space is developing a new weapon against space junk
(20:46) The James Webb Space Telescope is looking very much at very distant galaxies
(26:44) Astronomers and cosmologists talk about the multiverse theory
(34:35) Fred: We have very exciting time at the moment in human space flight
For commercial free editions, become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/space-nuts-exploring-the-cosmos--2631155/support.

 

 

WEBVTT

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Welcome back to another exciting episode of Space Nuts, the

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podcast that is absolutely out of this world. I am

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your host today, Heidi Compo, filling in for the regular

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Andrew Dunkley. And here we have with us Professor Fred Watson,

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astronomer at Large.

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Fifteen shack and guide the Channel ten nine ignition.

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Space Nuts SHY four three two one, space Nurse at

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the NAT recorded fels good. Hi Fred, how are you

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doing today?

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I'm well, thanks handy and lovely to see you again.

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And we have a beautiful sunny morning here in Sydney

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where I'm recording at the moment, you're at the other

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end of the world, at the other end.

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Of the day, Space Center Houston.

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It's evening.

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It's been quite windy here, but the weather's been nice.

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It's been warm, but not too warm. And this is

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going to be this is going to be an I

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think springtime in Houston is always just really fantastic. And

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speaking of this month, I wanted to share with you

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and our other listeners an exciting event that is happening

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here in Space Center Houston. Well, yeah, sorry, it will

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be at Space Center Houston, but it's happening in Houston

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in general. Is the Spaceflight Human Optimization and Performance Summit,

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so that will be happening at the end of the month,

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and they are going to have all kinds of fantastic

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speakers from NASA and other private organizations. They're giving educational

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talks on the effects of spaceflight on the human body.

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And it is such a fantastic opportunity to network, to

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hear from people who are really at the cutting edge

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of science, and to just kind of collaborate with some

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really brilliant people. It's fun to sometimes be in those

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places where you are pretty confident that you're not the

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smartest person in the room.

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I've spent my whole life feeling that, honestly, Well.

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I feel like that sometimes when I'm looking at your

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books and whatnot. So we've got some pretty fun articles

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we're looking at today. We've got some things about stuff

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going on on Mars. There's articles about space junk and

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galaxy models. And I wanted to start this off by

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asking you, Fred, have you ever been to Arizona.

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Oh, yes, quite often, because for a long time the

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center of the world's astronomy instrument development. What's the word

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for it, frost, That's a good word. The center of

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the world's Astronomy Instrument Development THRUST was in Tucson, and

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of course the Kitpeak National Observatory is not very far

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from Tucson, so I spent many many weeks there on

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and off. And the other thing that Tucson's famous for

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in that sense of the two of course are absolutely interlieved,

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is that's where the basically the dark Sky movement started,

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the idea that we can do something about light pollution,

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because it was at that time the impact was mostly

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on astronomers. But we now know that it's not just

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astronomers who were impacted by bad light and light pollution,

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it's the whole natural world and indeed ourselves. So that

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has moved on since the early nineteen eighties when it

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all got going in Tucson, Arizona. And yes, while I

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was in TUCSONA I explored most of the rest of

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Arizona's squat excellent.

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Well, yeah, that's good. We're kind of building on what

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we talked about last week with the pollution. But I

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was going to say, if you've been to Arizona, well,

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I guess in Sydney, Australia too. You've definitely seen some

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dust storms.

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Right, yeah, yeah, that's right, and absolutely I know where

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this is going.

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Do you get haboobs in Australia at all? You know?

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Is that the name for what we call dust devils?

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Oh, so the haboobs are the really really big ones.

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I was living in Arizona. If you guys want to

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google the twenty ten haboob in Arizona haboob. It's very

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phonetic huboob. I believe or ha that it is a

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Middle Eastern word because these normally happen in the Middle

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East and with things like you've seen the movie Hill

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Dalgo with the horse horses running things like that. So

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if you see the twenty ten haboo Arizona pictures you'll

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see what I'm talking about. Quite crazy, but yeah, dust

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is something that you're going to be familiar with in

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places like Australia and Arizona, but people may not be

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as familiar with some of the dust storms on Mars,

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which you're so smart. That's exactly where we were going

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is they did see some dust devil activity on Mars,

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and I think that's kind of cool and exciting. Can

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you tell us a little bit about going out of that?

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And it's for the this is a a topic I

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really love, and it's because you've put your finger on it.

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This is something we're familiar with here, not in Sydney certainly,

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but in the western plains of New South Wales, and

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I lived in that region for twenty five years. It

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was very common to see these pillars of dust. Is

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that what you mean by a haboob? Is it very much?

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You know?

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How does it relate to a tornado?

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Bubes are much more extreme. It's an extreme dust storm

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that's more like a wall of sand or by area.

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So if you think of interstellar with the wave of water,

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it's like that, but with sand.

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We get that in Australia too, whether you know, the

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top soil will blow off in one region and you

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will literally get a wall of dust, brown dust, which

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sometimes gives rise to the most spect tacular photographs. And

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if the dust, you know, penetrates far enough, it does

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actually reach the coast. There have been occasions of that

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sort of dust storm in Sydney. The the whole color

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of the landscape changes, not just because it's covered in dust,

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but because the atmosphere filters out you know, all the

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all the the blue light and you get this reddish

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ethereal glow, which is in many ways etherea is probably

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the wrong word. It's it's actually almost apocalyptic. It feels,

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you know, that that you've got this wall of dust

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and the colors afterwards, the cover of the peculiar colors.

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But what I was going to talk about today though,

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what are usually known as dust devils, which are quite

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small areas of dust, and it's where you get a

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little whirlwind that picks up a column of dust and

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moves along the landscape. So you see these moving columns

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of basically dust. Sometimes there's bits of debris being circulated around.

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It's not a tornado, but it's you know, the sort

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of perhaps the poor relative of a tornado. We do

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get them in western New South Wales, and I've seen

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a lot there, but I was surprised. It goes back

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actually this story to probably about two thousand and three

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or four, in the early days of the new generation

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of Mars rovers. Spirit and Opportunity were the two that

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really sort of put Mars rovers on the map. There

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were other ones before that, but Spirit and Opportunity gave

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us some stunning images of the planet's surface, and among

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them were images from Spirit I think taken from the

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top of a mountain range which was basically on the

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edge of a crater. Actually it might have been Curiosity,

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and I should have checked that. No, I think it's

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Spirit Crater. I think it was its name if I

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remember rightly, lovely images across the crater with a little

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movie clips of these dust devils going across it, which

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are relatively common on Mars, it turns out, and in

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fact they were observed actually by the Viking orbiter back

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in nineteen seventy six, so the spacecraft happened to be

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looking down at a region where one of these was happening.

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They're different from earthly ones in first of all, in

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the sense that because the atmosphere on Mars is so dry,

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it's virtually zero humidity, that means that static electricity can

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build up, and so you often get flashes of lightning

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in the base of Martian dust devils, and yeah, little

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sparks of lightning caused by the static electricity build up.

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And the other thing is they're much taller than the

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ones we find here on Earth. The biggest one I

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ever saw in South Wales here in Australia probably had

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a height of about five hundred meters half a kilometer,

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so what's that sort of you know, about about the

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third of a mile basically, and that's you know, that

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was pretty significant. On Mars they get up to eight kilometers,

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which is like five miles, and I guess that's partly

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due to the fact that the dust is very, very fine,

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and also the fact that Mars of course only has

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a third of the gravity that we have here on

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planet Earth and just a quicker side. They're technically known

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as dust devils. I think that's the correct term. It's

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different from a haboob. A harboob's a wall of dust,

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and that's something we also get. But in most of

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Australia they have a first nation's name and aboriginal name.

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They're called willy willies, and a willy Willie is a

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little dust storm that going past on the horizon. One

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of the little factoid about the Martian ones in particular

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is that with both spirit and opportunity, which relied for

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their power on solar panels, unlike curiosity and perseverance, which

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have got thermoelectric nuclear generators, the dust panel, sorry, the

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solar panels tended to get just covered by dust that is,

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you know, present on Mars. Mars is a very very

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dusty planet. So as you as you roam around the surface,

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you're kicking up dust with the space with the rovers wheels,

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and that dust eventually lands on the solar panels. I'm

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going to have to clear my throat. Excuse me one minute, Yeah, yeah,

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there we go. I hope that. Oh, I don't think.

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I don't think I muted that.

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That's okay, we can edit that out.

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That was meant to be muted out, and I'm sorry

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I did. Sorry, Hugh, that probably went right in your ears,

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as I can see from Heidie's face it went in

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hers as well. Just to mention though, that the solar

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panels themselves were cleared unlike my throat by dust devils.

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They were actually cleared when these things passed over and

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swept the dust off the solar panels. So Curiosity in particular,

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which was in a sorry opportunity, was in a dusty

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place that kept you know, the power kept dropping and

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kept reappearing again because of these dust devils.

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Quite quite extraordinary, and that's definitely going to be a

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concern when we're trying to, you know, get humanity to

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set up a colony on this planet. I'm just thinking

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of the movie The Martian, as cliche as it is,

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that was the big problem that got him stuck there

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to begin with, was that big dust storm. So I

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guess that was a bit scientifically accurate when they put

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that into that movie.

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And that's right, the dust storm was we now know

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Martian dust is. It's toxic as well, in the sense

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that it gets into your lungs. It does quite a

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lot of damage. So in my view, not a place

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to colonize, but that's my view.

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Is the dust similar to the moon regolith, where it's

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also kind of sticky?

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Yeah, I think it's a bit like that, and probably

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for the same sort of reason. Mars has such a

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thin atmosphere that the erosion processes. Originally, erosion took place

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with wind and water like like it did here on

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Earth because of the fact that Mars had a warm

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and wet climate. The thinness of the atmosphere means that

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you've got a much higher level of bombardment by subatomic

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particles from the Sun, and that's what gives you the sharp,

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pointy edges of dust particles on the Moon. Now the

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Moon's nearer to the Sun than Mars is, but I

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think still the mechanism occurs that you've got bombardment, which

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which actually further further breaks down the further breaks down

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the dust.

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Well, if if we do end up going to Mars

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and we are successful with our endeavors there, we can

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fill Twister three with Glenn Powell doing some twisters on Mars.

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Space nuts to.

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Get through the atmosphere. It seems like there is just

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more and more issues with their atmosphere and all the

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space trunk that's up there. And I even just saw

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on I don't know if it was Prime or Netflix,

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whatever streaming service I was on the other night, there's

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a movie. There's a there's a movie out about space junk,

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and in this sci fi movie they have people who

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work in orbit constantly clearing space debris. But that might

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not be something that's even a worry because it looks

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like there's a new technology that can help us with

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some of the space debris and junk. Can our orbit.

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Absolutely, I mean, this is one of the major problems

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of our era, the potential for space chunk. It's the

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space junk already exists. There's a lot of stuff up

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there that is now redundant and quite harmful, given that

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the minimal orbital speed that you're going at is about

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eight kilometers per second, about five miles per second, So

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everything is charging around at very high speeds, and as

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you will well know, even a fleck of paint can

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take a chip out of the window of a space shuttle.

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That very well known phenomenon from a few decades ago.

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Actually so at the moment there are just over eleven

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thousand active spacecraft in orbit around the Earth. Most of

241
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them are Starlink satellites. But when you look at the

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debris that is actually tracked, stuff that is redundant, I

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don't have the exact figure out, but it's well over

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thirty thousand items bigger than four inches sorry for it, yes,

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four inches, one hundred millimeters, ten centimeters. And then when

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you look at smaller stuff, you're in the millions. You're

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really in the millions of bits of debris, and it's

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all damaging. And that the main problem is that as

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soon as you get a collision between two bits of

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this stuff, especially if it's sizable in any way, then

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you will get more debris being created, and that increases

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the risk and that can lead to what's called the

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Kessler syndrome, where everything's crashing into everything else and you

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suddenly lose access to space. So it's a real problem

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and one that needs attention, and indeed is getting attention

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from the world's technologists. I just saw a tail walk

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through the picture there behind.

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You, little dog speaking of little problems. Yes, always on

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the parral. But yeah, I mean this is super interesting

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because it's like every i mean almost every something going

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wrong in space movie starts with this. So it's well

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mel from the scientists down to the creatives. And so

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it looks like this this this what do they call them,

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the bold new weapon against space junk. It looks like

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Percy p e r Sei Space Yep, that's right, is

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a startup that's helping with these issues.

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Yes, that's right. So that there is a backstory to

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this in that there's been several experiments carried out by

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both private companies and things, you know, body bodies like

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the European Space Agency to try and see how you

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could clean up space, and mostly it involves something like well,

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one of them is sending up a spacecraft that centrally

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rendevus with a satellite that's now redundant, whether it's a

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rocket body or you know, a communication satellite, something that

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switched off and is now dead. But he's a risk

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because it's up there. And if you can then put

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it through a grappling iron at it, you know, going

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back to the technology that was used in the Middle Ages,

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catch hold of it with your hydraulically propelled grappling iron

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or whatever it is, you then can capture it. And

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if you have a satellite that now has hold of

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this Maverick object, you can basically apply braking rockets and

283
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make it re enter so that it burns up and

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is no longer a problem for collisions. But that's a

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difficult that's quite a tricky problem and it needs, you know,

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spacecraft equipped with quite large amounts of fuel to do that.

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And so this new idea, the one that you've highlighted

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from perse Iied Space, it's going to be tested actually

289
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early next year. It's quite counterintuitive and takes it will

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to get your head around how it works. It's called

291
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an electrodynamic tether. It's a ribbon of aluminium maybe more

292
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than that one hundreds of meters i e. Hundreds of

293
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yards long and only a few inches or centimeters wide.

294
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And what happens is that this thing gets a current

295
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running up and down it from the plasma in the ionosphere.

296
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And by that we mean charged particles charge sub atomic particles,

297
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in other words, sub atomic particles that carry an electric charge,

298
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so excuse me. So you get an electric current set

299
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up in the tether, but that then interacts with the

300
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asthmagnetic field. This is the really cunning bit and puts

301
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a drag on the tether. It slows it down, it

302
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starts breaking it. So if the tether is attached to

303
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in fact, it can be attached to a cube sat.

304
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They're small enough that you can do that. This is

305
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the thing of size of a loaf of bread. But

306
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you then have to attach the cube sat to whatever

307
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spacecraft you want to whose orbit you want to change.

308
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You can actually set things up so that you slow

309
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down the Maverick spacecraft and essentially make it slow enough

310
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that it will start to re enter the atmosphere and

311
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be burned up and again got out of the way.

312
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But this is the really coming bit. If you do

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it in a slightly different way, you can also actually

314
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push it into a higher orbit so that you can

315
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refurbish a spacecraft one that has run out of its

316
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maneuvering fuel, so it can't save itself from being swallowed

317
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up by the atmosphere anymore. You can shove it up

318
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to a higher orbits with the same electrodynamic tether and

319
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give it a new lease of life. It's quite an

320
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:46.920
amazing promise. And this is the best bit. All of

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this is free. It comes with no fuel expenditure. It's

322
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because you're relying on the natural forces that' surround the

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earth in order to do this. It's a very very

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clever argument. The question is will it work.

325
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Yeah, what you're sounding, what you're saying sounds truly just

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like magic. And I think about that all the time.

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If you were to tell ancient people about even just

328
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the Internet or a phone, it would have founded like

329
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magic for them. And oh, I'm talking to somebody around

330
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the world. They would have thought I was a sorceress.

331
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And this to me sounds just amazing. It's so cool

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what humans have truly come up with. I mean, humanity,

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I'm so proud of us. Sometimes sometimes I'm not so.

334
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Sometimes Sometimes I look at what humanity is collectively doing

335
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and it's just so awe inspiring and I just love

336
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being around these people who are doing incredible things or

337
00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:51.480
space nuts. But sometimes we mess it up, and sometimes

338
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our models and predictions get it wrong, which looks like

339
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that was the case with some models that they created

340
00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:05.200
with these galaxies. There are models. Either the models got

341
00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:07.160
it wrong or the galaxies got it wrong. But our

342
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:11.839
predictions is that they were going to continue growing, but

343
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in reality the galaxies stopped growing sooner than the models predicted.

344
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That's right. A fascinating story once again comes from I

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guess the post a child of spacecraft at the moment,

346
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at least for astronomers, the James Webspace Telescope, which has,

347
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as you know, I think we talked about this a

348
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:41.039
week or so ago, has been concentrating on as well

349
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as many other objects in space, but looking very much

350
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at very distant galaxies, because that is our probe to

351
00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:51.799
the early universe. Whenever we look into space, we're always

352
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:55.039
looking back in time. We are looking back, in this

353
00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:59.240
case many many billions of years. We think the universe

354
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is thirteen point eight billion years old, so nothing can

355
00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:03.920
look back further than that. We do see something at

356
00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:06.279
that age, but it's the flash of the Big Bang.

357
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But those galaxies which came into being we think within

358
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the first few hundred million years of the Big Bang.

359
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:19.200
The Big Bang generated hydrogen. Hydrogen form stars, stars form galaxies,

360
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:23.599
and so we basically have been looking for galaxies in

361
00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:27.000
the early history of the universe kind of to try

362
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and understand when these first stars occurred and when they

363
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switched on. And the basically what's happened is we've uncovered

364
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:41.599
one after another puzzles, really quite serious puzzles for our

365
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.920
understanding of how galaxies work. And this new one, it's

366
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:52.119
another conundrum comes about because we see galaxies when the

367
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.160
universe was less than a billion years old, but we

368
00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:57.640
see galaxies that look as though they should be several

369
00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:01.079
billion years old, and that's because they've used up all

370
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:07.920
their hydrogen in forming forming the stars. Staff galaxies do

371
00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:10.480
form stars because the hydrogen is the raw material of

372
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:15.079
the stars, and certainly our galaxy is actually still forming stars.

373
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But some we know formed stars used up all their

374
00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:22.079
hydrogen and became effectively dead galaxies. Now, we thought those

375
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:24.920
had to be going for billions of years in order

376
00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:28.559
to get like that, but several have been found now

377
00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:32.799
in the early universe, which looks as though they're much

378
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:36.799
older than they can be because they've you know, they've

379
00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:40.000
only existed for a few hundred million few, yes, a

380
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:45.640
few hundred million years. There's some really nice nomenclature with this, Heidi,

381
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:51.079
because like you know, astronomers tend to light forming nice acronyms.

382
00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:55.240
And there is a survey called which is called Red

383
00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:00.799
Unknowns Bright Infrared Extra Galactic Survey, which abbreviates to RUBIES,

384
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:04.279
and I quite like that abbreviation. So one of these

385
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:09.279
galaxies is called Rubies udsqg Z seven. That's you know,

386
00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:12.519
a nice yeah, just encapsulates everything about it. I guess

387
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:16.880
the Rubies is echoing what these galaxies look like. Galaxies

388
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:19.559
look like. They're redder than the star forming galaxies which

389
00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:23.319
tendency who have the tendency to be blue. So another

390
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:25.799
puzzle in the early universe which we have to get

391
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:29.359
our heads around in order to understand really what's going

392
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.599
on in that distant era of our past.

393
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:37.319
Do you think and I almost like, you know, it's

394
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.440
almost scary to think this, but do you think that

395
00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:42.240
we could discover so much in space with James Web

396
00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:46.240
and looking deeper and deeper that it challenges everything that

397
00:24:46.359 --> 00:24:49.680
we already know about the Solar System and sorry, the universe.

398
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:55.039
It's almost like that already. It's the Web telescope has

399
00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:01.279
really caused a lot of heads scratching in terms of

400
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:05.000
how you make these observations fit with our models of

401
00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:08.680
what the early universe was like. Some people and a

402
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:11.119
few of our question you know, when we've had Q

403
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:14.519
and A sessions in Space Notes, we occasionally get questions

404
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.799
from listeners who've heard this sort of thing and say, well,

405
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:20.680
there's something wrong here because some of these galaxies must

406
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:25.200
have been formed before the Big Bang, and that can't

407
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:30.480
happen because there was nothing before the Big Bang, not

408
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.920
even space probably, And so what we're talking about is

409
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:38.799
not a conundrum that says, yes, we're seeing galaxies that

410
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:42.359
are too old for the universe. The conundrum is galaxies

411
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:46.200
evolved much more quickly than we expected them to. They

412
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:49.559
come into being, and as we've seen here, some of

413
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:53.240
them are almost enter old age when they're only a

414
00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:55.920
few one hundred million years old, and that flies in

415
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:58.880
the face of conventional wisdom. It means that our models

416
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:01.960
of galaxy, for which we thought we had sort of

417
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:06.799
fairly well neat and tidied up or neatly and tidied up.

418
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:09.200
That didn't make sense either anyway. You know what I'm

419
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:12.440
trying to say. We thought we'd we thought we'd understood them,

420
00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:15.640
and clearly we don't. There are gaps in our knowledge

421
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.640
that the James Webb Telescope is uncovering almost every day,

422
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.519
and it's a very stimulating time for astronomy and particularly

423
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:25.039
those theoretical astronomers who've got to get their head around

424
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:27.079
why it's like this and how this all works.

425
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:30.720
Ask me. Every semester of grad school, I finish up

426
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.079
the semester, I'm like, okay, finals, Well, I feel like

427
00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:36.240
I know what I'm doing. Next semester should be a cakewalk.

428
00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:38.279
And then I walk into next semester and I was like,

429
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:42.240
oh this is I feel completely inadequate again. And I

430
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:47.519
don't understand any of this, but I do. Astronomers and

431
00:26:47.720 --> 00:26:53.160
cosmologists ever talk about the multiverse theory and how I

432
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:58.240
don't know if there could be you know, galaxies clashing

433
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:04.359
and colliding from other universes and the big bang of

434
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:08.200
our universe is timed differently than others. Is that something

435
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:09.319
that's been tossed around.

436
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:15.279
Yeah, there's a huge amount of activity in the what

437
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:21.240
you might call the the speculative sphere about the multiverse,

438
00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:27.599
if I remember rightly, the term was coined by Martin Reece,

439
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:33.079
now Lord Reece, who's the astronomer oroyl in Britain, the

440
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:35.839
Astronomer Royal, I think, was the first person to point

441
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:40.200
out that the universe that we see around us is

442
00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:44.640
very well tuned for things like stars and planets to form,

443
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:47.960
for galaxies to form, and for life to form, and

444
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:51.759
that you only have to change the fundamental consonants of

445
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.240
the universe a tiny bit either way and none of

446
00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:57.079
that happens. And I think that was what led to

447
00:27:57.160 --> 00:28:01.160
the idea that maybe our universe is just one of

448
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:08.359
many which have different physical constants, and we happen to

449
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:11.359
be the one that has the physical constants that allow

450
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:14.359
life to happen, which is, you know, it's kind of

451
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:18.000
self fulfilling almost. We're not in one of the other

452
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.920
ones because life wouldn't happen there. So that was the

453
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:25.519
start of it. There's been other ideas that speculate about

454
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:29.720
multiple universes, one of them and really neat one. Actually,

455
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:34.240
you may know, there's four fundamental forces in nature. There

456
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:38.200
strong and weak nuclear forces, the electromagnetic force, which is

457
00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:43.279
light and radio and gravity. But gravity is hundreds of

458
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:46.880
it's actually billions upon billions upon billions upon billions of

459
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:51.640
times fainter, sorry, weaker than the other ones. It's not fainter,

460
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:54.880
it's weaker. So gravity is very very weak, even though

461
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:57.519
we feel it quite you know, noticeably if we fall

462
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:00.440
over and get pulled out to Earth with the bang.

463
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:03.000
But so gravity is very weak, and some people have

464
00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:06.359
speculated that that might be because gravity leaks out into

465
00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:09.759
other universes if we've got a multiverse. The problem is,

466
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:12.680
I mean, the word universe itself means all that we

467
00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:16.960
can ever see or detect or measure, and as soon

468
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:20.079
as you start talking about other universes, you've thrown that

469
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:23.559
definition away, and it's hard to see where they would

470
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:28.039
exist unless there are higher dimensions that we do not

471
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:31.759
yet understand, and we might have, you know, a fifth

472
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:36.119
or a sixth or a twentieth dimension which contains other universes,

473
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.400
and then you have the idea of a multiverse. What's

474
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:41.480
difficult to see is how a galaxy from one of

475
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:45.920
those could stray into our universe, because otherwise it becomes

476
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:49.000
part of the universe and probably would have formed with

477
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:54.680
you know, with our universe and our galaxies. The one

478
00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:58.880
thing that people point to as an observational tool is

479
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.759
this my co wave background, this background of radiation that

480
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:05.519
we see and understand as being the flash of the

481
00:30:05.559 --> 00:30:08.160
Big Bang, that we're seeing so far in look back

482
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:10.240
time that we can still see it because that has

483
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:13.839
a pattern imprinted on it, which are hot, slightly warmer,

484
00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:17.200
and cooler zones of temperature. And some people think they

485
00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:19.680
can see patterns in that that they think might have

486
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:23.759
come from a different universe. But that is very very speculative,

487
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:25.279
very speculative.

488
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:29.640
Indeed, that's more of the mathematicians' realm is to go

489
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:32.440
in to find some of these things mathematically before we

490
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:36.359
can even really define it theoretically, and then you know,

491
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:39.960
maybe a thousand years from now will have the technology

492
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:44.880
to better understand this. But in the meantime, I guess

493
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:47.599
the only way that I think this could theoretically make sense,

494
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:51.039
and this is just fun little brain candy, is you

495
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:55.960
know my pencil leaves behind it's in three D. My

496
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:58.599
three dimensional pencil leaves behind its mark on a piece

497
00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:02.440
of paper. That's only because the lead is that crossover

498
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.160
and so there could be I don't know, crossover bits

499
00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:10.559
of matter that can bleed in two different dimensions.

500
00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:13.680
Yeah. The nice thing about your analogy is that you're

501
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:16.359
quite right. Your pencil is it's not a pencil, but

502
00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:19.480
it looks a bit like that. It's a three dimensional object.

503
00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:22.920
You're right on paper, which is a two dimensional object.

504
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.759
And so you've got a three dimensional object interacting with

505
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:31.599
a two dimensional object. And that could be a nice

506
00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:35.839
model for what the you know, what the multiverse is like.

507
00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.480
And in fact, it's not too far out. We can

508
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:44.680
sort of almost extend it as well, because excuse me,

509
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:47.000
we have a piece of paper.

510
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:50.960
Oh fantastic, now I'm in the demos.

511
00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:54.319
Yeah, so I don't know whether anybody else can see this.

512
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:56.640
If you're listening, I'm sorry about this, but I'm holding

513
00:31:56.680 --> 00:31:59.599
up a sheet of paper. We can all envision a

514
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:02.000
piece of it actually turns out to be two pieces

515
00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:05.880
of paper. And that's the idea of something called M theory.

516
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:10.480
M theory is membrane, and so we think one sheet

517
00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:13.880
of paper is a membrane on which our universe is imprinted,

518
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.160
and another sheet of paper might be a membrane with

519
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:20.240
another universe on it, and the idea is that it's

520
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:25.039
collisions between these membranes that cause big bangs. This is

521
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.480
known as the ech pyrotic theory of the universe, to

522
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:32.480
give it a name. What's freaky about that is, if

523
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:36.559
it's true these membranes are only a few millimeters apart, and.

524
00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:40.160
So things happening all then.

525
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:43.000
Maybe there are yes. Yes, that's right. So take that

526
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:47.240
one away and think about it. But what a good analogy? Though?

527
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:49.279
You did? You did? You hit on the right.

528
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:51.960
I watch a lot of sci fi. They drain and

529
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:58.319
dumb it down for their their watchers, their viewers. You know,

530
00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:01.119
I've always thought of this ever since I was a

531
00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:04.400
little kid with the Men in Black the original movie,

532
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:08.640
the very end scene where they zoom all the way

533
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:11.039
out of our Earth and our gay and our soul

534
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:13.559
system and galaxy and universe, and it keeps zooming out,

535
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:15.559
and it keeps zooming out, and it keeps zooming out,

536
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:19.480
and then eventually everything that we could conceptualize in our

537
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:23.240
known universe was just a marble in an alien's hand

538
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:26.720
and they were just playing with marvels. And it's just,

539
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:31.000
you know, the idea that it just continually exponentially if

540
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:33.759
you just could open up the aperture infinitely, there would

541
00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:37.680
always be something bigger and bigger and bigger. And I

542
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:41.119
think that mathematically, they've I've just heard this. I have

543
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:44.079
no idea, but I think mathematically, some of the formulas

544
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:47.680
to look at some of the smallest known things and

545
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.200
the biggest things are similar. And I think that falls

546
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:52.119
into quantum theory.

547
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:58.160
Yeah, that's why. Well, yes, that's correct quantum. I mean,

548
00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:00.839
when you look at the mathematics of relative quantum theory,

549
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:03.440
which are the two sort of theories that you know,

550
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:07.519
one governs are very small, one governs are very large,

551
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:11.800
some of those equations do look similar. They're all horrendous.

552
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:15.079
Mathematics was not my strong point at university. I'm afraid,

553
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:16.320
oh me neither.

554
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:19.920
But now, oh but what if? And you know, I

555
00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:21.960
don't think these are the questions will ever answer. But

556
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.360
what if it was just a big circle? How craazy

557
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:27.880
would that be? Those are the things we may never

558
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:31.920
find out though, but we will continue to explore and

559
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:35.679
answer those questions every week here on Space Nuts. Fred,

560
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.679
did you have anything else you wanted to add to

561
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:40.320
our conversation today.

562
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:45.519
Not only that we have a very exciting time at

563
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:48.480
the moment in human space flight. We've just seen the

564
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:53.280
orbital flight, sorry orbital flight of the FRAM two mission,

565
00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:58.000
the privately operated space mission that took humans into a

566
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:00.519
polar orbit for the first time, one that is both

567
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:04.000
the north and the South pole. Those astronauts returned a

568
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:06.639
few days ago with lots of tales to tell. We

569
00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:09.599
might cover that in a future is edition of Space Nuts.

570
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:12.400
It's very exciting. Thank you so much, Fred, It was

571
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:13.400
great talking to you today.

572
00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:16.159
Always a pleasure, Hidi, thank you very much for your

573
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:23.159
time to space to the Space Nuts podcast available at

574
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:28.440
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio, or your favorite podcast player.

575
00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:31.440
You can also stream on demand at bides dot com.

576
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:35.920
This has been another quality podcast production from nights dot com.
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