Aug. 29, 2024

#447: Wandering Planets, Dark Matter Controversy, and the Fermi Paradox Debate

#447: Wandering Planets, Dark Matter Controversy, and the Fermi Paradox Debate

Join Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson in this captivating episode of Space Nuts, where they explore the latest discoveries and theories in astronomy and space science.
Episode Highlights:
- Rogue Planets Discovered: The James Webb SpaceTime...

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Join Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson in this captivating episode of Space Nuts, where they explore the latest discoveries and theories in astronomy and space science.
Episode Highlights:
- Rogue Planets Discovered: The James Webb SpaceTime Telescope has identified six new rogue, or orphan, planets. Learn about these mysterious celestial bodies that wander the galaxy without a star to orbit.
- - Dark Matter Doubts: A new study raises questions about the existence of dark matter. Discover the findings from the Lux Zeppelin detector and what they mean for our understanding of the universe.
- - The Fermi Paradox Revisited: Explore new ideas around the Fermi Paradox and the existence of extraterrestrial life. Could alien life be so different from us that we simply can't detect it?
- For more Space Nuts, including our continually updating newsfeed, visit our website at spacenutspodcast.com .
- For more Space and Astronomy News Podcasts, visit our HQ at www.bitesz.com.
- Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/space-nuts/support.
- Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.

 

 

WEBVTT

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Hello, thanks for joining us. This is Space Nuts where

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we talk astronomy, space science and all the problems of

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the world that we cannot solve, and a few other

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things as well. But coming up on this episode, in fact,

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we are going to look at some new information that's

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come from Yes, you're right, the James Web Space Telescope.

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It has found six new rogue planets. Rogue or orphan planets.

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They're out there floating around. They don't have a star,

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no mum, no dad, They're just hanging around on street

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corners smoking joints. But we're going to find out more

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about these ones. We're also looking at doubts that have

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been raised about the existence of dark matter itself. Well,

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if it's not dark matter, what is it? And if

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it's dark matter, I don't know. There's been a study

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done and they've gone nothing to see here. And we're

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going to look at some new ideas around the Fermi

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parad and life in the universe. It's all coming up

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on this edition of Space Nuts fifteen.

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In Channel ten nine ignition sequence Space Nuts or three two.

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One Space Nurse and I reported Neils Good and unraveling

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the ravelment that is astronomy and space science is professor Fred.

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What's a hello bread?

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Hello Andrew, good to see you, Good to see you.

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To you today, you're looking rather dapper, dapper pinstrop suit

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you Well, yes, yes it's the shirt you see that

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because I spent the morning in far more official meetings

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that were in I spent the morning on the golf course.

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Well there you go, yes, do share, because see I'm

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a bit red in the face.

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Got some sun. Yes, we had a beautiful day today.

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It's spring has just gone. It's like drop gone us,

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like a giant ball, and it just all the cold

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weather just suddenly vanished. Yes, very very enjoyable. I spoke.

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I've probably spoken too soon. Next week we'll have snow.

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Except it is coming back. The cool weather's coming back,

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of course it is. We've got twenty nine degrees here today. Yeah,

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we've been up in the ridiculous for winter.

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Yeah, we're expecting. I think we're sespecially get twenty five

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today and twenty eight on Friday. Yes, it's insane, and

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yeah we're still technically in winter. Yeah, I wonder what's

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caused all that. Let's not go there, but we have

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got a lot to talk about. Fred and the first

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thing is a story that's gained a bit of traction

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in several on several websites, and that is a new

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thing from the James Webb Space Telescope. Six Wandering rogue

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Planets is one headline. Another one says James web Spot's

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new rogue Worlds or Planets. I guess we could start

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off by explaining exactly what a roague planet is. I

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think most people have got it in their minds well

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and truly, but a few might be going, what what

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on Earth is that? It's Yes, it's some. There's all

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sorts of reasons for them, but they are out there.

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That's correct. And I mean I always think rogue planets

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is a it's not a good name for these things.

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The sound naughty, yes, that's right. It gives them a

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bad look. Whereas you know, if you call them orphan planets,

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then your sympathies are much.

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More with them. Just so sad.

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Sad planets. Yeah, there's an afterronym that I remember writing

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about a long time ago. They were called f flops.

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F flops was free floating low something, but I can't remember.

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I can't remember what it was. I'd have to look

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look it up. And I've got time to do that now.

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But I thought, yes, flops kind of. I think it

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gave them a you know, a sort of tick of

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failure across of failure. Really, didn't it that they just

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haven't made it? They're flops, Really, they're not. They haven't

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made it. And in a way, that is what this

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story is about. Because whilst we've known about roade planets

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or often planets for several decades now, some of the

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first were discovered actually using the Angle Australian telescope if

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I remember rightly here in Australia, in the Orion Nebula.

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So the irin Nebula is a place, it's a region

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of staff formation. It's a place which became sort of

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reasonably well known for its orphan planets. But the question

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about them is where they came from. And there are two,

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basically two possibilities. One is that they formed in the

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normal way that planets form, from the proto planetary disc

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around a young star. And so you know, rogue planets

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sorry often planets, would have formed along with their siblings

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in that protoplanetary disc and then something happened that basically

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kicked them out, sent them wandering off into interstellar space

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with no Sun to orbit around. Maybe we should call

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them banished planets planets looking in the school toilets.

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That's what it was.

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Yeah, well that's the I suppose that's the equivalent of

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a gravitational interaction with another planetary body, which as the

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same thing. Really you still get you still get kicked out.

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So did they form in the way that all planets

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formed the normal planetary formation, and then get kicked out

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by some gravitational interaction, or did they form as the

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bottom realm if I can put it that way of

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the star formation process. So when stars four in clouds

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of gas and dust, which is where we know they

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are formed, and you know they form by these blobs

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of this gas and dust collapsing under its own gravity,

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and eventually that collapse produces a high enough temperature because

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of compression that you will get nuclear reactions taking place. Now,

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the clouds of gas and dust where we know stars

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form are multi faceted, and there is a suspicion that

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perhaps some of them, you know, you get little globs

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of gas and dust which collapses as though it was

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going to form a stun a sun, not a stun

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a star or a sun, but it doesn't have enough

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mass in there, so the compression never reaches the temperatures

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that you need to click nuclear reactions into being. So

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that's what you might call the top down model, where

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you've got you start off forming a star, but there's

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not enough material to form that star, and what you

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get is something with the mess of a planet. And

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that is, you know, a perfectly reasonable explanation for why

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these orphan planets or roade planets exist, and in a

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way that gets rid of the orphan bit because they've

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never had a parent star. They've always been objects that

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have formed directly from the raw material of stars, that's

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gas and dust. So this new observation has shed some

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light on that and it comes, as you said, from

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the James Webspace telescope. About half a dozen of these

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orphan planets, road planets, flops, whatever you want to call them,

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have been found without a star to orbit, and they

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are in the perseous molecular cloud. It's a region of

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oll ocules, is that as the name implies, which is

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basically gas, cold gas and dust, and it's in the

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constellation of Persius, the Northern Hemisphere constellation. So the planets

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which have been found have ranged between five and ten

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times the mass of Jupiter. And this is a sort

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of critical measurement because there is thinking that suggests anything

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less than that than five times the mass of Jupiter

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would have to have been formed in a bigger planetary

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system and then kicked out. So there's a sort of

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lower limit there on the formation of these And so

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what you're saying is that, you know, if there were,

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if you were seeing them less than five times the

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mass of Jupiter, then you could point to them having

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been formed elsewhere in a solar system and then kicked.

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Out, but there were the rants of the litter.

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Yeah, in that sense, that's right. Although five times the

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mass of Jupiter is pretty big, it is, I wouldn't

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call it that towards space, No, No, you rather, you

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certainly wouldn't want to do that. You could get into

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all kinds of trouble. So this observation tends to favor

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the idea that these things have formed as though there

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were going to be stars but haven't got that far.

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There is another limit.

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That that that applies to these objects, because anything that's

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more than thirteen times the mass of Jupiter becomes something else.

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That is what we call a brown dwarf star, because

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that is the mass in which what you might call

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low level nuclear processes kicking. It's basically deuterium burning. They

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call it fusion of deuteria. So anything above thirteen times

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the massive Jupiter will be a brown dwarf star.

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Speaking of woage trade, for those who are watching us,

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I've got a brown dwarf.

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Hang on, turn my Oh so you do.

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Yes, it's a terra Cotta warrior from China.

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Yes, that's right, there you go.

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But it fits in the palm of my hand, brown dwarf.

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Is it less than it must be more than thirteen

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times a massive Jupiter then if it's that, but just

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watch out for that deuterium fusion in the interior.

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I hope there's none in there.

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At the risk of wondering, if you and I are

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talking across purposes here, I'll carry on, yes and so yeah,

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So more than thirteen times a massive Jupiter, you've got

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a brown dwarf. More than ninety three times the mass

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of Jupiter, you've got a star. Yeah, because then you

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get the you've got enough mass to create hydrogen fusion.

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Fusion of hydrogen. It's to helium the normal nuclear process,

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so that it's it's an interesting set of observations that

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we've got that might draw a line under the question

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as to whether rogue planets often planets, whether they form

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alone in a top down process in other words, collapsing

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star cloud clouds of raw material of stars, or whether

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they're kicked out of their solar systems. And it looks

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as though it is the former rather than the latter.

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Yeah, so they're independently created and then then just float

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off into the into the ether. And then I guess

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what will likely happen to them is I'll just keep

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floating around out there doing not much.

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Yes, that's right. They'll indeed, they will, they'll, you know,

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they will evolve in a slow sort of way. They

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they're almost certainly gas giants. There is just one other

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sneaky input into this debate that came from these new observations,

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and that is that one of these rogue planets looks

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as though it has its own protoplanetary disk, in other words,

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a miniature version of what the Solar system would have

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looked like in its early history where the planets were formed,

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or what a solar system looks like it looks as

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though there's a sort of tiny replica of a solar

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system being formed around one of these rogue planets, which

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again points to the top down formation mechanism. In other words,

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they're formed by the collapse of small clouds of gas

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in a molecular cloud.

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That's fascinating. I also think during this study they found

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a brown dwarf that had its own planet, So that

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what would you call that? That's not a they're not

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rogue planets.

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That's a no, no, that's it might you might almost

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call it a binary system because the brown dwarf is

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low mass, the planet's probably quite high mass. The difference

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between one and the other is one's burning deuterium and.

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The other isn't. Yeah, wow, there's so much you know, this,

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James web Tap the space Telescope is starting to reveal

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to us. And even though it's which I've mentioned before,

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opening up so many more questions, it's also managing to

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answer some questions. And yeah, and we're only in the

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early phases of its role. It's mission. Who knows what

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else we'll discover. But if you're interested in reading that

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story about rogue planets, just do a search for it.

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There are so many platforms. Space dot com has done

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something on a Cosmos magazine, or if you want to

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put yourself to sleep and read the whole thing, it's

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in the Astronomical Journal. That's where they published the official paper. Yes,

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this is space Nut's Andrew Dunkley here with Professor Fred

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what's a.

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Murder you here? Space butts?

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Now, for doubts have been raised about the existence of

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dark matter. We get a lot of questions, surprisingly about

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dark matter, people wanting to know what it is, how

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we've managed to find it. You know, we haven't actually

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identified it. We just sort of know it's there because

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it has to be, otherwise things wouldn't add up. But

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now a new study has been published that's basically said, hey,

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we've looked for this stuff and no, I find it

225
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can't exist.

226
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Yeah, nobody's saying it can't exist.

227
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I just threw that in there for topical humor.

228
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Well yes, yeah, yes, don't misquote anybody though, So yes,

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So it's some results from a dark matter particle detector

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which is looking specifically for one candidate particle for the

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dark matter problem. So quick recap without there being something

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called dark matter galaxies wouldn't hold together. They'd rotate too

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fast to hold themselves together. And that's you know, that's

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one of the main reasons why we think dark matter

235
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is present, plus the fact that we see evidence for

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it with gravitational lensing and things of that sort. But

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it's not detectable by normal means because it doesn't seem

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to interact with normal particles in any way other than

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by gravity. It doesn't interact, you know, from a nuclear standpoint,

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it doesn't interact from any kind of electromagnetic interaction, in

241
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other words, interact with photons, none of that. Doesn't want

242
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to know, but it seems to exist. Now, multiple candidates

243
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have been proposed for what that particle might be, and

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indeed some people think there might be a whole zoo

245
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of different dark matter particles like there are with normal

246
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matter particles. When you think of the sixteen fundamental particles seventeen,

247
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I think if you're throw in the Higgs boson in

248
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what we call the standard model of particle physics. So

249
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one of the proposals has been something called a WIMP,

250
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and the WIMP is the weekly interacting massive particle, and

251
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a WIMP has particular characteristics sort of particular expected mass

252
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in order to provide the kind of gravitational pool that

253
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we think dark matter has. And so this particular experiment

254
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was tuned to look for WIMPs, specifically to look for WIMPs.

255
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And it's a detector that is called luxe Zeppelin, and

256
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I think that's an acronym, but it's usually just contracted

257
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to l Z Locke Zeppelin or l Z if you're

258
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on this side of the Pacific. So, and the number

259
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of scientists have been involved with this US scientist it

260
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is basically a US facility. It's located and sorry, I

261
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was going to say a mile and a half, but

262
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it's actually more like a mile a kilometer and a

263
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half underground at something called the Sanford Underground Research Facility,

264
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And it basically consists of an enormous tank of xenon

265
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and a lot of very sensitive light detectors for the

266
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multiplier tubes as they're called, to detect any collision that

267
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might be produced between a wimp and a normal particle

268
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that would produce electromagnetic energy in other words, and so

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the you know, people might be thinking, wait minute, Fred

270
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just said that, they don't. It doesn't interact with normal

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particles and now is saying that it does. And the

272
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bottom line there is that we think it might do,

273
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but very very rarely. In other words, there might be

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very sparse numbers of interactions between normal particles and the

275
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fabled matter particles, and that then leads you to be

276
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able to predict, Okay, if you've got an interaction between

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say a proton.

278
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And a wimp, what will you get.

279
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And the theoretical astronomer, sorry, the theoretical nuclear physicists who

280
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think about this stuff, can predict what kind of gamma

281
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ray spectrum or light spectrum you might get from such

282
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an interaction. And that's what these detectors are looking for,

283
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those characteristic signatures that you might get from a hypothesized

284
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whim hitting a real particle, something that we know is

285
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not just hypothetical. Yeah, and well they have run this

286
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experiment now for I think two hundred and eighty days altogether, yep,

287
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and not found anything. So that means that they can

288
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say that these whimps don't have a mass bigger than

289
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nine giga electron vaults. So a mass, when you're talking

290
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about subatomic particles is measured in electron vaults. Nine giga

291
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:43.880
electron vaults is actually quite high. And for example, the

292
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particles that you might detect from the large hundred collider

293
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are in the basically they're in the terror electron vault level,

294
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.279
so they would detect more than this. But this particular

295
00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:01.240
experiment is saying nothing bigger than nine giga electron vaults.

296
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Is a whim.

297
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They don't exist if their mass is bigger than that.

298
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However, yeah, I knew there'd be a bat.

299
00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:16.160
Yeah, because a different detector might be able to detect

300
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:22.279
more massive particles. Yet however, however, again one is coming

301
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:26.119
because the university, actually it's a I think it's a

302
00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:31.000
consortingum of universities in Australia are putting together a detector

303
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:33.480
known as Saber, a nice name, s A b Are

304
00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:38.160
And it's down inside another mine, this time in Sotile

305
00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:42.720
in Victoria, well known town in Victoria in the southern

306
00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:46.839
part of Australia, and that will come on stream next year.

307
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:49.799
The Saber detector will come on on next stream and

308
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:52.880
sorry next year. He'll come on stream next year. And

309
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:59.000
it has a different category of detection for dark matter.

310
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It's looking for something different rather than just collisions. It's

311
00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:09.200
still got a target, not liquid zen on like the

312
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:12.519
lock Zeppelin has. It's a target that is a mixture

313
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.960
of sodium and iodine, so of different chemicals that might

314
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:21.400
react to some sort of particle interaction that they think

315
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:26.599
they may be able to detect. I think the Stoyle detector, say,

316
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:29.359
but detective scientists are a bit more optimistic that they

317
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:31.799
might find something with their new detector when it comes

318
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:32.680
on stream next year.

319
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:36.519
So the bottom line is they've run this two hundred

320
00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:40.279
and eighty day study and basically said, look, we can't

321
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.599
find anything that you could identify as a dark matter

322
00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:49.640
particle and it falls within the search area of these parameters,

323
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:52.400
but we can't look any bigger than that, so we

324
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.200
can't find them. They don't exist in these in this spectrum.

325
00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:01.400
But there could be a particle that are larger net

326
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:03.519
that we can't find, and we haven't got a machine

327
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:05.039
that can do it yet, but there's one coming.

328
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:10.240
That's the bottom line, beautifully put Andrew, you ought to

329
00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:14.279
be a journalist, and so so.

330
00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.200
I'm too honest with them.

331
00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:24.000
Yeah, you probably are. The bottom line is the fact

332
00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:26.799
is that we know there is something there because astronomy

333
00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:31.480
tells us that we're missing something completely and the best

334
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:34.480
candidate from all the research that's been done is some

335
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:38.000
kind of sub atomic particle. And that's why you've just

336
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:42.680
got to do these experiments and hammered down the maybe

337
00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:46.000
open up the space within which you're looking. And as

338
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:49.359
you say, it's these various parameters that are being defined

339
00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:52.599
by these different instruments. So I hope we'll talk about

340
00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.559
style next year when it's switched on. Maybe the first

341
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:57.799
thing it will discover is a darkmatic particle.

342
00:22:58.119 --> 00:23:01.039
Well we hope so, yes, would be good to find one,

343
00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:03.640
and then we'll ask it a lot of questions because

344
00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.119
it needs to come up with answers. Yes, we've been

345
00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:08.880
sitting here wondering for so long. Now. If you'd like

346
00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:10.880
to chase up that story, you can look it up

347
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:14.039
on the ABC News website. That's ABC Australia. But you

348
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:18.839
can also go to the LZ Dark Matter Experiment website,

349
00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:21.319
which I found while you were talking Fred LZ dot

350
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:25.359
LBL dot gov. Well that's got everything you need to

351
00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:27.799
know about the study and how it worked and what

352
00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:30.440
they did and all these big numbers that are too

353
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:36.160
hard for my brain. But yeah, check it out. Sorry, excellent,

354
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:39.599
Yes it is, it is. This is space nuts with

355
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:47.440
Andrew Dunkley and Fred Watson broad Pace MutS okay, Fred,

356
00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:50.599
just as elusive as dark matter, although the difference being

357
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:53.759
we probably know that dark matter exists, we don't know

358
00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:59.559
if extraterrestrial life does. And once again, the Fermi paradox

359
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.200
has been put under the microscope or the telescope or

360
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:07.839
whatever scope you want to use, and questions are being asked,

361
00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:11.839
some new ideas about life in the universe or not?

362
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:12.839
What's going on?

363
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:20.039
Yes, a paper by a person by the name of

364
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:26.400
I guess it's for King Raki sounds about right, probably

365
00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:36.160
really mangling that. Really who is a scientist? Vulkin is

366
00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:42.240
a Serbian philosopher. He's somebody who thinks about these things

367
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.920
and has published a paper in the Journal of Astrobiology,

368
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:49.000
which I have in front of me at the moment,

369
00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:55.400
the International German Journal, sorry, the International Journal of Astrobiology.

370
00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:00.079
The paper is called a non Anthropocentric Solution to of

371
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:01.160
the Fermi Paradox.

372
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:03.119
I like the name of that.

373
00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:05.440
Yeah, And that's right.

374
00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:06.599
So it means.

375
00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:14.039
We're thinking too too limited a fashion. That's the bottom line,

376
00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:21.880
that we may the extraterrestrial life may have so different

377
00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:26.960
set of characteristics that to human or to terrestrial life,

378
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:32.039
that we're just missing it completely. And that's what he

379
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:36.400
means by non anthropocentric solution.

380
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:39.319
I you know, I haven't heard the whole story yet,

381
00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:43.359
but I reckon he's spot on. I think that could

382
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:44.359
well be the answer.

383
00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:50.799
It's what, Yes, it's sort of what you know, what

384
00:25:50.920 --> 00:25:54.960
people urge us to do. We get questions from people saying, ah,

385
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:57.160
but have you thought of life that was based on

386
00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:59.799
silicon rather than carbon and things like that, And.

387
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:00.200
Yes, we.

388
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:04.599
Have talked about it, all of those we've we've thought

389
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:12.640
about that. But professor ratchik or Rakic is urging us

390
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:16.599
to be even more broad in our thinking. So so

391
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:23.880
what he what he suggests is that their normal explanations,

392
00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:30.160
uh huh, and the several people have proposed explanations, that

393
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:36.880
they're all too anthropocentric. They're putting humans in the center

394
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:40.079
of the picture. As phys dot org is put in

395
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:47.680
their article about this, and suggests that alien life might

396
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.759
be unobservable to the senses that we as humans have developed.

397
00:26:53.759 --> 00:27:00.640
So but the but this philosopher is clearly a study sorry,

398
00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:09.039
a very profoundly thinking person in the field of this

399
00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:16.400
kind of approach. He's basically at the works at the

400
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:20.880
Center for the Study of Bioethics, University of Belgrade, and

401
00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:27.000
clearly spent a lot of time thinking about this. I'm

402
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.160
trying to think of how we can summarize it. He's

403
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:32.200
got let me just go back to the abstract for

404
00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:38.519
his paper, because he's classifying the solutions to the Fermi

405
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:44.759
paradox in four different categories, and this is what his

406
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:50.480
paper discusses. So the categories are, first of all, exceptionality

407
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:58.319
solutions that means we are exceptional, that there isn't any

408
00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:03.480
other life in the universe. Number two is annihilation solutions.

409
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:09.160
That is that extraterrestrial intelligence doesn't last very long. It

410
00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:12.759
gets annihilated one way or another, either by natural causes

411
00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:17.039
you know, super and ova wiping out life, or in

412
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:22.079
self inflicted ones exactly the ones that we naturally think about, wars,

413
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:25.920
or even viruses, you know, run away viruses of that sort.

414
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.559
And then communication barrier solutions. Sorry I said there were four,

415
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:37.319
that's only three. That that means that there's no ability

416
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:42.200
to communicate. And I can imagine one scenario with that

417
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:46.960
might be, for example, if there is extraterrestrial intelligence in

418
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:52.519
the oceans of Enceladus or Europa, where there's no way

419
00:28:53.079 --> 00:28:56.839
of penetrating that ice covering the glass ceiling. If I

420
00:28:56.839 --> 00:28:58.720
can put it that way, you can't get through that,

421
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.240
so we would know about that. So it's a communication barrier.

422
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:08.519
But then he says, really, what we've got to do

423
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:13.240
is take humans out of the equation altogether, forget about

424
00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:19.000
human life and look at the broader context, what sort

425
00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:24.799
of life there might be, whether it's life that exists

426
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:28.480
as in organic matter or you know, some sort of

427
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:37.440
entity that we are not capable of perceiving. And I

428
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:43.839
think what he's doing is setting the groundwork for possible

429
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:47.799
future thinking about this. And in fact, the last line

430
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:52.000
of the abstract of his paper is, in the light

431
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:56.319
of the revolutionary developments in theoretical physics, it is likely

432
00:29:56.359 --> 00:29:59.839
that in the future these developments will be reflected in

433
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:05.200
a increasingly non anthropocentric solutions to the Fermi paradox. In

434
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:08.640
other words, people thinking more outside the box.

435
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:12.640
You know what, I think that's a great way to

436
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:18.279
It's a great idea to consider that because I think

437
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:20.839
he went on to say that, you know, some of

438
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:25.839
these entities could exist as made up of dark matter

439
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:28.680
or dark energy or you know, the things we've been

440
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:33.640
talking about that we can't detect. Yes, but that's a possibility.

441
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:38.519
And I love the way he talks about how we

442
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:42.359
perceive the intelligence of other creatures on Earth, like whales

443
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:46.079
and dolphins, But what do they think of us? Do

444
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:49.440
they look at us as intelligent? Maybe they don't. Maybe

445
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:53.440
they just go look at these dimwits they can't even swim,

446
00:30:55.359 --> 00:31:01.920
and and how insect life perceives humans. Did they look

447
00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:06.240
at us as intelligent creatures? I think not. They probably

448
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:10.480
just they may not even recognize us as alive. And

449
00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:11.920
that's where he's coming from.

450
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.240
Yeah, that's that's right, that's where he's coming from. And

451
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:20.240
it is I think, you know, you're you're clearly and

452
00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:23.480
armored by the ideas that he's putting forward. As I

453
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:24.960
have to say, Andrew.

454
00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:27.440
It's an interesting it's an interesting way of looking at it,

455
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:31.799
and it sort of opens the the whole world of

456
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:38.480
science and technology and astronomy to being more philosophical, being

457
00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:44.480
using philosophy as a way of analyzing possibilities, probabilities, and

458
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:47.480
even things that are so far out of the norm

459
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:51.000
that we haven't even looked there, but maybe we should.

460
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:59.839
That's right, I feel I've not done this professor a

461
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:04.920
service in terms of my explanation of his theory. But

462
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:09.079
the paper, actually, if our listeners can check it up

463
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:13.119
on the one you can look at online see in

464
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:16.680
the International Journal of Astrobiology, is called a non anthropocentric

465
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:20.759
solution to the Fermi paradox. It's very beautifully laid out.

466
00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:23.920
I'm not used to reading papers by philosophers, but this

467
00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:27.319
is really neat. And the three types of solutions that

468
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:32.759
I mentioned you lists them here. The exceptional exceptionality solutions

469
00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:37.079
include the Earth is an exception or intelligent life is

470
00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:40.160
an exception, and that's the one that I've tended to

471
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:45.039
trot out a lot in recent times. The annihilation solutions

472
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:51.279
suggest include periodic annihilations of intelligent life caused by natural events.

473
00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:55.440
Advanced forms of intelligence have the tendency to destroy themselves

474
00:32:56.079 --> 00:32:59.799
or to destroy others. And then the communication barrier solutions,

475
00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:03.319
of which there are many. They broadcast signals that are

476
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:07.720
only detectable for a short space of time. Extraterrestrial intelligent

477
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:10.920
life may be incomprehensible to humans. That's what the one

478
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.240
you were talking about regard to insects and things. Yeah,

479
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:17.799
they may reside too far away from humans. It's a

480
00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:23.279
really interesting list of reasons why the family paradox might

481
00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:26.519
still be a paradox. And then the alternative solution that

482
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:30.720
he presents is itself a really interesting set of reading.

483
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:32.839
I'd urge anybody who's interested in this problem to have

484
00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:33.599
a look at the paper.

485
00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:36.240
Yes, indeed, Yeah, you can read the story on fizz

486
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:41.119
dot org, phy s dot org as well, so or

487
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:46.200
the International Journal of estro Biology. Yeah, that's it's a

488
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:48.880
good one. It's a really fascinating story, gets your thinking

489
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:52.319
outside the box. Love those love those sorts of theories.

490
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:55.240
That wraps it up. Fred, Thank you so much.

491
00:33:56.519 --> 00:33:58.920
It's a great pleasure. Andrew. It's always good to talk

492
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.559
about these things, especially when we get ideas of stimulating

493
00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:01.839
as that.

494
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:06.640
Yes, I'm sure questions will come. Yes, and don't forget

495
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:10.000
if you want to follow us on social media. We've

496
00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:13.199
got the Space Nuts podcast group Facebook page, our own

497
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:18.480
specific Facebook page. We're on Instagram and YouTube, and don't

498
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:23.159
forget to hit subscribe if you're a YouTube follower, and

499
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:24.719
thanks for it. We'll catch you real soon on the

500
00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:27.280
next episode. Answering some questions, We'll see you then.

501
00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:29.960
Sounds great. Andrew, I look forward to that.

502
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:35.000
And thanks to Hugh in the studio who had all

503
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:37.199
the answers to all the questions we asked today, but

504
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:39.079
we don't let him on the show because we just

505
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:42.000
think he's too clever. And from me Andrew Dunkley, thanks

506
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:43.719
for your company. We'll see you on the next episode

507
00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:49.719
of Space Nuts. Bye bye. So the Space Nuts podcast

508
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:57.440
available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast player.

509
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:00.000
You can also stream on demand at Bidestone.

510
00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:06.159
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