#405: Martian Mysteries & Moon-Sized Marvels: Unveiling Mars' Ancient Atmosphere & The Tiniest Exoplanet

WEBVTT

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Hi there, Thanks for joining us. This is Space Nuts. My name

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is Andrew Dunkley, your host.
It's really good to have your company.

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On this episode, we're going to
be looking into a new report that suggests

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that, you know, things happened
on Mars a long time ago that have

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added more evidence to the possibility that
it could have harbored life or at least

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started to make progress towards having some
form of life. And it involves a

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chemical I suppose that you know and
probably don't love. We're also going to

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be looking at the smallest exoplanet ever
found. Will it retain that title for

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long? The word is possibly not. Will explain why very soon on this

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episode of Space Nuts fifteen, Channel
ten nine ignition sequence Space Nuts or three

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two one Street Nurse when I've re
bought it. Neil's good and joining us

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to talk about all of that and
much much more is Professor Fred Watson,

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an astronomer at large. Hello Fred, Hello Andrews. Yes, still at

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large. Everybody thinks it's a joke
total, but it's actually that's my job.

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Yeah it is. Yes, Well
used to be in astronomer in charge,

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but there was no one to be
in charge of after a while.

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Well, I had to had to
redesignate you, yah, something like that.

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It happens, It happens. So
how you been, I mean to

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the unwary. We've been together every
week for the last several weeks, but

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I've actually just come back from Egypt, so you have, and I'm very

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anxious to hear how it went.
Well, I'll start with the bad news.

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I think I caught COVID, so
I spent most of that trip actually

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under the weather. But on top
of that, what a fascinating place,

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what incredible history, and I don't
know what to tell you was the best

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thing I saw the Pyramids and the
Sphinx go without saying the Valley of the

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Kings was extraordinary, getting down into
the tombs in the Valley of the Kings

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and seeing the elaborate artwork and the
hieroglyphics, and and some of the things

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that they did to try and trick
the grave robbers, like little sand traps

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and wells and false sarcophagus and false
walls, and just so many amazing things

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that they did to ward off the
looters. The Civilization Museum was an eye

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opener for me because that's where the
mummies are. There's only actually one mummy

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that's remained in the Valley of the
Kings. Do you know which one it

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was? I don't know, couldn't
is the way they pronounce it. Yeah,

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he's still there because his body is
too delicate to move around. The

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rest of them are in a museum
in Cairo called the Civilization Museum. Highly

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recommend that because you can actually go
down under the main exhibition flow and walk

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from one chamber to another and get
up close and personal with the pharaohs and

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they're all there. They're all there, all the Ramesses. There's a whole

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bunch of them, including the famous
Rameses, the second and just so many

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And yeah, real eye opener.
Luxor, I really I really liked Luxor

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and the temples. I'm pretty well
templed out. I don't have any we

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went to, but we saw a
lot. But they but they're all part

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of the story and that's what it
was about to try and piece together this

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amazing hit street. We even went
to a granite quarry where they mind pink

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granite to create those famous obelisks.
And is that the one where there's anobylisk

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that's still half finished? Yeah,
And it's split, it broke, so

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it's still lying down in Lindown,
Yes, in the ground, not completely

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cut out of the ground. So
they've given up their project. But can

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I show you something hang on a
s wherever I go, if there's a

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rock worth collecting, I get one. So that that is a piece of

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pink granite from the ancient granite quarry
in Luxow. You've probably just broken the

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law, probably showing the start it
kind of get space onl of the court.

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It's allegedly a piece of allegedly Yeah, yeah, but yeah, what

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an amazing place. And we did
a river cruise on the night island,

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spent three nights on the boat,
and then we went to a red Sea

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resort and hung out there. Someone
said to me, someone said to me,

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I'll be really keen to see how
you feel when you come back as

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to whether or not you really believe
the Egyptians could have built the Pyramids.

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That's a really that's not a nice
question. Yeah. I think Cairo surprised

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me. I didn't expect it to
be quite as what's the term, quite

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as third world as it was,
and yet just up the road they're building

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New Cairo, which is modern and
dynamic, and there is an astronomical connection

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there, Fred that you were telling
us. Yes, So of course when

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we were there in twenty eighteen,
part of our tour, which money put

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in especially for me, it was
to visit a telescope. It's actually quite

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close to my house. It's a
big telescope at a place called Kotamia,

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if I remember rightly, it's hell
onan is the nearest is the nearest place.

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It's seventy four inch telescope, a
you know, a large one,

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classic of its time. But unfortunately
the new Cairo is going to essentially brighten

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a bit skies to the extent because
of light pollution, to the extent that

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it won't be viable anymore, which
is a great shame because telescope was last

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a long time. This one was
built in the fifties and it's still going

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strong. Yeah. Yeah, well, having seen what they've done, I

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was told two years ago it was
nothing, it was just desert. And

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now you've got this, just this
megacity, thirteen lane highways. It's just

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extraordinary what they've done. So yes, I do believe that the Egyptians built

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the pyramids. Yeah, not Aliens, definitely, not Aliens. It wasn't

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just I know I've spent a bit
too much time on this, but I'll

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just tell you a little bit about
issues with language and translation. Had an

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incident where I was We were staying
at a hotel and I asked for the

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Wi Fi password, so they gave
me a menu. I twice asked for

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white wine and got red wine.
I once asked for coffee and got tea.

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And we asked one of our guides
what the length of the Gaza Road

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was, because you know, obviously
we're interested in where Gaza was, and

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he said, that's the Gaza Road
and it's five thousand kilometers long, and

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I went, yeah, maybe not
seeing Gaza was three hundred and fifty kilometers.

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And the other funny thing we asked
him the population of Cairo, and

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I think he knew, but he
couldn't put it into the right words,

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so apparently there are thirty thousand people
living in Cairo. A bit. It

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was a lot of those language issues
as well. It was Yeah, it

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was definitely an amazing trip, and
we felt safe. You know, they're

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very careful over there and never really
felt there were any issues or dangers,

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and they take security pretty seriously.
Too, so yeah, it was it

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was a good trip. Pide I
got sick early and had to live with

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that all the way through. And
now jet lag. So I'm sitting here

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with both at the moment. So
apologies if I disappear, and it's okay,

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it's just it's just mucus, nothing
of Now we've got a lot to

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do and I've bart a lot of
time, so let's get into our first

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topic. And this has everything to
do with Mars and it's past and the

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possibility that it could have, at
some stage in its history harbored life.

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And a new paper has been published
which adds a little bit more weight to

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that theory. Yes, that's right, and it comes from japan Japanese researchers

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who've done some modeling of what Mars's
ancient atmosphere might have been like and what

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they've what they've done, and by
that I mean the period I think it's

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called the Noatian period if I remember
something like that anyway, against what is

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the no Ocean period. Now,
yes, that's right. And when there

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was there was liquid water on the
surface because the pressure was higher than it

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is now, the temperature was warmer
than it is now. And what we're

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talking about is a period. In
fact it is it's that early period from

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about three point eight to three point
six billion years ago. And once these

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scientists have done is looked at the
kind of gases that are coming out of

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volcanoes and what they contain. And
basically you've got things like hydrogen, carbon

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monoxide, carbon dioxide, and water. And they've sort of envisage that these

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chemicals would have been in Mars's early
atmosphere, and what they've modeled is how

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they would change. And it turns
out that because of solar radiation, the

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photons that come from the sun,
you get chemical reactions. For example,

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carbon dioxide turns into carbon monoxide,
hydrogen, sorry, water turns into hydrogen

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and oxygen. You put all these
things together and you get formaldehyde, which

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is very well known chemical that we
think of as a preservative for specimens in

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jars. Did the Egyptians use for
maldehyde? I wouldn't be surprised, I

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think so it's probably in mummification.
Yes, that's right. So when you

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take when you take that modeling,
yes you get formaldehyde. You you can

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probably then dissolve that in the you
know, the water oceans. But either

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way, the existence of formaldehyde basically
means that you've got a sort of and

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let's do the Egyptian thing again,
a Rosetta stone for some of the some

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of the other molecules that could form
from formaldehyde reacting with different other different chemicals

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to form carbon rich molecules, the
sorts of things that we think of associated

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with life, like amino acids and
things of that sort. So this this

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research again, it's it's sort of, I suppose, leaning towards the optimistic

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side regarding life on Mars. One
of there is searchers. There's a lovely

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quote here and I'm reading from Cyitech
Daily. In this particular story, the

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researcher says, our research provides crucial
insights into the chemical processes that may have

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occurred on ancient Mars, offering valuable
clues to the possibility of past life on

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the planet. This is Shunga Kayama, and that's the lead author of the

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study. And so it's basically,
you know, it's broadening their research,

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broadening the level of possibilities that we
have for the formation of what we would

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call biomolecules, you know, the
molecules that basically go into living organisms.

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Now we're finding those all over the
place. We find the modern comets and

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even asteroids. But to find a
reaction that can actually generate these chemicals on

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the surface of ancient Mars is I
think a step forward. It's a very

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interesting piece of research, and once
again it provides some optimism for people who

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are looking for perhaps in the end, when we get the samples back from

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from Perseverance, we might be looking
for evidence of past living organisms fossilized perhaps

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in the dust and soil of Mars. Yes, that's the sixty four thousand

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dollars question, isn't it. And
this just seems to add a little bit

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more fuel to the fire. Yes, that's right, it does indeed,

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which is Yeah, it's an interesting
step and a nice piece of research,

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and look tevist, but I admire
people who can work out what these reactions

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are and tell you what comes out
at the end. Yeah, I suppose

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we should add a kad it and
say they're basing this on a few assumptions.

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Yes, sometimes you have to do
so. It's not an absolute,

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but the assumptions are fairly sound.
Yes, and that is the existing conditions

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on Mars at the time. But
yeah, we know in its history it

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probably had liquid oceans, it was
warmer, and now this could add another

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little piece to the life puzzle we'll
be expounding, and hopefully in the not

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too distant future we will have answers. Yeah, all about the answers,

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or the nearest thing we'll get to
answers will be when these samples come back

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from Perseverance, which I think it's
laid a cash of something like is it

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happened in samples of Mars. I
know that the planning for the recovery mission

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for these is in trouble in terms
of finances and things. This is meant

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to be a joint DES NASA mission. I think it was originally scheduled for

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twenty twenty eight. I think there's
issues with that haven't followed up on them,

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but it looks as though people are
raising questions above it, so we'll

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we'll have to see how that goes. It is a very important mission,

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of course, to bring back for
the first time sometimes of Martian Martian soil.

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Yeah, I still kind of shake
my head about the fact that they

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created such a fabulous mission to collect
the samples, but you know, they

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put the collection idea on the back
burner, and it's still on the back

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burner, so I hope it won't
stay there for very long. Yeah.

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Well, you know, those things
have been up there for billions of years.

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It's they're not going to go away. No, that's right. I

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think you know, we'll get around
to it eventually. That's what people do,

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That's what I do. Yeah,
yeah, I'll get I'll get to

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those weeds in the garden. Yeah. Yeah, there's a few things like

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that. Actually, all right,
if you would like to read up on

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that story, as Fred suggested,
the SI Tech Daily dot com website is

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a great place to start. This
is Space Nuts. Andrew Dunkley here with

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Professor Fred. What's an Let's take
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and it will just automatically do a
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data breach in your system. And
it does happen from time to time to

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time and they will alert you.
It basically means that your information has ended

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dot com slash space nuts. Now
back to the show, Nuts. You

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00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:22.480
are indeed with us, and we're
grateful for that, so thank you.

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Now it's time to look at things
beyond our solar system, and a lot

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of the time they are exoplanets,
and we have now discovered the smallest exoplanet

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ever found. Fred. This thing's
yeah, I suppose it's really tiny,

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but it's opened up that debate on
Okay, is it a planet or is

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it something else? Yeah, that's
right, that's why it's in the news.

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It's just the you know, the
the question about whether this object,

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which actually has been known for about
ten years, I think, whether it

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is a planet. So what do
we talk about. We're talking about an

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object called Kepler thirty seven B and
it's an object that was discovered by the

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Kepler mission, and we should just
recap on that. It's now Kepler is

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now not operating anymore. But that
mission, which was incredibly successful, was

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to measure the brightness of stars very
very accurately and measure them over time.

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I think they did it one hundred
thousand stars at once, I remember,

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rightly, and to look at the
way the light from those stars varies,

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and to detect when objects pass in
front of those stars. So that means

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you have to have a planetary system
around the star that's actually aligned with the

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direction back to Earth. And there's
quite good statistics on how many you might

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expect to find like that, but
indeed it was so it was so many

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that many thousands, I think it
was three or four thousand planets were detected

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by Kepler. As they passed in
front of their parents, star caused a

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dip. Next time round they passed
in front of their parents, star caused

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another dip. And I think if
you get the third one, that's when

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it is classified as a planet rather
than being a suspective planet. So Kepler

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was really successful at this, and
the reason why it sort of revolutionized the

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planet finding process was before that.
Before Kepler, the main way of finding

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planets was the Doppler up wobble method, where you're looking for wobbles in the

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motion of the star backwards and forwards
towards and away from you that have been

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a bit caused by a planet pulling
the star slightly out of place. Now,

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that's a great way of finding big
planets, but for little ones it's

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pretty grim because the pull of a
little planet is not very great on its

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parent star. Whereas the Kepler method, what's called the transit method, because

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the planet transits across the disc of
the star, that is very sensitive to

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actually quite small planets. And just
to spill the beans on how big we

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think it is, Kepler thirty seven
B is actually about the same size as

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the Moon, which is a quarture
of the ASTHEYMITI now, so that's the

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record breaker at the moment. But
the question I guess that was raised was

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is it really a planet? Yeah? Is it? You know? Is

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it? Is it an asteroid or
something that's not spherical? And that is

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something that we Earthlings have defined through
the Astronomical Union, and it has to

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meet certain criteria to be defined a
planet, which Pluto couldn't do anymore.

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And that's why it was redesignated in
two thousand and six. That's correct only

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if I remember only the twenty third
divorced. That was the date I think

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of the vote, which was still
controversial honestly, But my view, as

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you well know, is that it
was the right decision. So the criteria

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and that this is the nub of
this story. It's got to orbit a

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start or the Sun in the case
of the Solar System, it has to

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be big enough that this process called
differentiation has pulled it into a spherical shape.

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In other words, its own gravity
has overcome the resistance of the rock,

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which is probably molten back in the
day when it was being formed.

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Its own gravity has overcome that resistance
and pulled it into a sphere. But

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the third criterion, and this is
the one that Pluto fails on, is

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that it's got to be the dominant
object in its neighborhood. It's got to

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have gravitationally cleared other objects out of
the way, and if it hasn't done,

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then it is a dwarf planet,
which is why that new categorization was

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introduced. Something that's very coal but
hasn't become the dominant object, it's a

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dwarf planet. And indeed Pluto isn't
the dominant object. Other things that are

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equal in size to Blueto are probably
things that are bigger that we haven't found

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yet out there in the depth of
the Solar System. So that's the question

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in relation to Kepler thirty seven B
is it has it cleared its own area

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of the region around its parents star, which is called Kepler thirty seven And

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the answer is it's really hard to
know that because the stuff that will be

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around it will be very small.
But I think that basically the upshot of

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the research that is being described here. It's a scientist and I can't remember.

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I think it's Thomas Barclay is the
name, but I can't remember.

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00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:49.240
Yes, got our space Flight Center. Yes, its Barkley got our Space

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00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:55.759
Light Center, and in fact he
Thomas was the first author of the paper

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00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:02.559
eleven years ago that actually identified that
planet as being a planet, Kepler thirty

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00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:12.000
seven B. I think what has
happened now is to look in more detail

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at the star itself, because we
can learn things about stars from a topic

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that we don't often talk about Andrew, even though it's actually well pursued here

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00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:29.799
in Australia. There's a very strong
group at Sydney University that look at this

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00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:34.920
topic. It's called astero seismology and
it's about vibrations in stars. You can

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00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:40.039
even apply this to the Sun.
The Sun's got I think they're about every

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five minutes the Sun wobble slightly.
Ye, it's a natural oscillation and you

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00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:47.839
can see those in the brightness of
the star. And I think they've made

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just by looking at the basically that
these oscillations, what they've done is got

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00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:03.400
a better estimate of the diameter the
mass of Kepler thirty seven B. And

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essentially it is what we said about
the size of the Moon, and that's

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00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:18.200
really the remaining place where we are
at the moment. It's definitely that size

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that the likelihood is its spherical because
on objects in the size of the Moon,

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00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.400
what is it two and a half
thousand kilometers or thereabout, it's actually

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00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.880
a bit more than that. It's
getting up for three. Yes, it's

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00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:33.599
over three thousand, sorry, three
thousand, two hundred or something like that.

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00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:41.119
That size it will have, it
will have become a sphere, it

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00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.119
will have become verhical. The gravity
is enough to pull it into that spherical

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00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.119
shape. So then really really remain
in question as to whether the thirty seven

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00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:53.039
B qualifies as a planet is whether
it's clear the region around it, And

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00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:59.839
the suspicion is because it's so close
to its parents are it's very tense,

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00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:04.119
thirteen days to go around once.
The likelihood is that that stuff is long

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00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:11.839
gone, and so I think are
still old. In Kepler thirty seven B

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00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:18.640
up on a pedestal as the smallest
planet known outside the Solar System, and

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00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:23.279
in fact it is the smallest planet
because it's actually smaller than Mercury. But

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00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:30.200
we are looking forward to the launch
in three years time of the Nancy Grace

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00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.799
Roman Space Telescope, which is a
kind of hubble like telescope that's going to

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00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.279
do all sorts of interesting things,
because it's got a wide field of view,

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00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:44.440
and that will be detecting exoplanets by
a different a different method, not

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00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:52.200
the transit method, but one that
has actually found favor from astronomers on Earth,

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00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:57.920
not just in space. It's called
gravitational microlensing. And what happens is

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00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:07.720
if a planet passes in front of
the light of a star, its gravity

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00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:15.200
changes the brightness of that star because
this lensing process basically focuses the light its

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00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:22.839
Gravitational lensing is the phenomenon where space
is distorted by a galaxy or a planet

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00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:27.160
or something like the Earth. Space
is distorted by that, and what you

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00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:33.599
get is a lens in space,
effectively a lens, and that can magnify

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00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:40.400
the light of a distant star.
Gravitational micro lensing has been very successful in

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00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:45.519
finding new exoplanets, not as successful
as the transit method. But if you've

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00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:49.680
got a big telescope looking out for
these things, you might discover thousands of

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00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:55.359
exoplanets by this technique. And the
Nunti Grace Roman space telescope I remember rightly,

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00:29:55.359 --> 00:30:00.200
it's about the same size as Soubble
is, you know, on the

337
00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:03.200
trail of this. So in a
few years time, we might find another

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00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:11.079
huge troll of gravitationally micro lensed planets, and maybe we will find one smaller

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00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:15.359
than caple of thirty seven B.
In fact, I think they are anticipating

340
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:22.480
that to probability, because this method
they believe is going to catch quite a

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00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:27.319
big cluster of planets in the in
this well, you know where are they

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00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:32.680
going to look? Exactly anywhere they
can? Yeah, it's a it's a

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00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:40.799
really sensitive technique if for small planets. I might just add that colleagues in

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00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.599
New Zealand are actually particularly involved with
this. With this technique, there are

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00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:52.480
various projects, all with quite entertaining
names. I've tried to remember one of

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00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:56.880
them what it is, micro fun. That's it. Micro fun holifies them,

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00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:03.440
which I like another. So colleagues
in this part of the world are

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00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:07.400
very active in that in that process, including some amateurs traunulers as well.

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00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:12.920
Okay, if you would like to
read about the discovery of well, not

350
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:18.279
discovery of but the confirmation that thirty
seven B Keppler thirty seven B is the

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00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:26.279
smallest exoplanet thus found, you can
do that at space dot com. Fred.

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00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:33.559
We are done for another day,
and I just remind people that you

353
00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:37.319
can go to our website, have
a bit of a peruse and get in

354
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:40.240
touch with in touch with us there, and don't forget. If you're a

355
00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:45.599
YouTube follower and you watch us on
YouTube, don't forget to hit that subscribe

356
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:49.640
button down below. Where is it
again, Andrew? Where's that subscribe button

357
00:31:51.039 --> 00:32:00.799
down? Fred? Thanks so much. We're done for another day. Sounds

358
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.799
good and I look forward to the
next time, Andrew. Indeed, Professor

359
00:32:04.839 --> 00:32:07.720
Fret Watson, astronomer at large part
of the team here at Space Nuts the

360
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:13.480
podcast, and thanks to you in
the studio, he's been basically sitting on

361
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:17.680
his hands for the last few weeks
because he's had nothing to do. That's

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00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:22.559
different how I'm not sure anyway from
me Andrew Dunkley, thanks for your company.

363
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:24.559
Catch you on the very next episode
of Space Nuts. Bye bye.

364
00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:34.079
You'll be listening to the Space Nuts
podcast available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

365
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:38.400
iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast player. You can also stream on demand at

366
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:44.839
bites dot com. This has been
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