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Peter Bacon is currently the CEO of Disability Employment Australia – an industry association representing providers of disability employment services. He grew up in the United Kingdom and soon after college was offered an opportunity to join a firm to deal with helping persons with disabilities to gain employment. He quickly realized that he loved the work and wanted to dedicate his life to the efforts of promoting employment and the rights of persons with disabilities.
Our conversation ranges through various aspects of issues about disability employment. He discuss what is currently happening in Australia and how a commission report has just been produced that acknowledges that persons with disabilities are systematically being excluded. Now the real fun begins. As Peter says, the problem has been named.
Our time is well worth your listen. Peter Bacon offers many insights that can be of use to all of us.
About the Guest:
Peter has worked in disability employment for more than 15 years. He started out on the frontline in East London, attracted to the role by a friend who said it was ‘all about drinking cups of tea and helping people’. Pretty soon he discovered that he wanted this to be his life’s work – that the transformative power of building a relationship with someone and helping them achieve their career dreams was unmatchable.
After that he was offered the opportunity to do a variety of business development and strategy roles within disability employment and adjacent spaces, including skills and training, justice and rehabilitation, as well as the opportunity to work in international markets. Throughout, he has always prioritised the ‘voice of the customer’ and impact on the most vulnerable and marginalised communities.
Seven years ago, Peter was offered the opportunity to move to Australia to head up strategy at major non-profit Campbell Page. During his six years there, he took a lead on diversifying the organisation into new markets including social enterprise, through an environmental initiative for young people following the bushfires.
Since February this year, Peter has been CEO of Disability Employment Australia – an industry association representing providers of disability employment services and with the aim of unlocking the potential of people with disability across Australia. Since taking on the role, he has pivoted the organisation to focus on ‘all dimensions’ of disability employment, including the vital role of the ‘demand’ side amid increasing expectations of employer involvement with diversity, equality and inclusion. This is a potentially transformative moment for disability employment in Australia thanks to the Disability Royal Commission Report that details systematic and structural exclusion of people with disability from mainstream Australian life, and as the Disability Employment Service is reformed against this backdrop. Peter is excited to be a part of these debates and to lead a significant, sustained shift in the disability employment rate and as to how people with disability are treated within the workplace.
Ways to connect with Peter:
Email-peter.bacon@disabilityemployment.org.au
About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/
accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/
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Transcription Notes:
Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi, and thank you once again for listening to unstoppable mindset and we're really glad you're here. We're having a lot of fun doing this. It's been going on since August of 2021. I've enjoyed every episode, I've gotten to learn a lot from all of our guests. I value that greatly I hope that you have as well. And we have another one today another exciting guest Peter Bacon down in Australia who is involved very seriously in the whole issue of disability employment and I guess you got started Peter because somebody said it's all about having a having cups of tea and helping people I want to hear about that. But Peter, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Peter Bacon ** 02:00 Thanks, Michael. Great failure. Michael Hingson ** 02:03 So what kind of tea? Peter Bacon ** 02:07 I think it was English breakfast tea. Ah, gosh. Michael Hingson ** 02:10 I love PG Tips. Peter Bacon ** 02:12 Yeah, that's that's that's high quality tea. My great grandfather used to be a salesman for Yorkshire tea. So I should probably give a shout out to Yorkshire. Ah, Michael Hingson ** 02:22 I've heard of Yorkshire tea. I haven't tried it. But people have recommended that I should try that too. But we have a relative, a cousin who teaches at the University of Manchester and she came over to visit us in when we were when I was living. My wife and I were in New Jersey and she brought a British care package and there were biscuits in it and other things and there was a box of PG Tips t and we both fell in love with it. It was hard to get in the US at the time. We found a place where we could mail order at some and then when we moved back to California after September 11 We found a market that had literally what they called a British aisle. And on the British aisle they sold PG Tips T and then we discovered that Amazon carried it so I get PG Tips T pretty inexpensively now and love it so I have it every day. Peter Bacon ** 03:17 Sounds like you're quite the aficionado. I mean, being a Brit living in Australia. There are similar things. So there's, you know where the British Isles are in terms of within supermarkets. Also, there's various Facebook groups which relate to these things. I'm not that bothered about most of those things, but I do quite like milk chocolate digestive, so I always find them if I'd see that. Michael Hingson ** 03:40 There you go. Yeah, well, that that makes sense to well, we yeah, I've just I've always enjoyed PG Tips, tea. It's a lot of fun. When I wrote vendor dog, I don't know whether you've read it the book about me and Roselle in the World Trade Center. I even mentioned it in there so well. I don't mind promoting PG Tips. T it's good to Peter Bacon ** 04:01 get you on payroll, Michael. It Michael Hingson ** 04:03 should. Well, I'm trying to Yeah, by that time, I'm trying to remember I think we had discovered it. I don't know whether we had discovered it through Amazon. But I buy it's like $20 and I get a twin pack. Each pack holds 260 or 280 bags. So it's 560 bags of tea for $20. So that now that Karen has passed away that lasts me, you know, half well a long time. It's 280 days every year so it takes a while to go through it. Because I well it does. It goes faster than that because i i make a pot I put three bat or two bags in a pot. And I drink a whole pot in the course of the morning. And then I don't drink any of it the rest of the day. I drink water the rest of the day. Peter Bacon ** 04:54 Yeah, well I mean we're big on our caffeine here in Australia. Melvin, particularly when I go back home, when I go back home to Britain and drink my coffee, I can't cope at all because the coffee is so good in Melbourne. So yeah, yeah, there's a big bonus about living. Michael Hingson ** 05:11 There you go. The caffeine has never done anything for me. It's really for me all about it being hot. But I like PG Tips over just having hot waters. So that's what I have. But the caffeine has never done anything more for me. I could I could drink a cup at night, and it wouldn't make a difference. Peter Bacon ** 05:29 For me, I've got two young kids. So it's an important part of my life. Well, Michael Hingson ** 05:32 they're see, are they going to grow up to be tea drinkers? Peter Bacon ** 05:38 I don't know. I've already thought my eldest is 10. I've taught her how to use the coffee machine at home. It's like a proper coffee machine. So she's she's at the very least she's a trainee barista, which would be a good job for her to get to sort of 16 or 17. I think, Michael Hingson ** 05:52 well, if it's a good coffee machine, it'll make hot chocolate to you. There you go. See? Well, Tim, tell me a little about the younger Peter, the early Peter growing up and all that if you would. Peter Bacon ** 06:06 Yeah. So I was brought up in high school boy, Tunbridge Wells in Canton, England. And it was, you know, it wasn't necessarily that much of a, I did okay, epidemic, I wouldn't say was that much of a happy child. And a lot of that was down to I was, it was an dyspraxic. And, like, so many things. You know, education wants people to fit nicely into boxes. And nicely into a box. I was, you know, almost report said bright, but disorganized. Reports from my board might say the same thing now. But Michael Hingson ** 06:50 keep you hired still, though. Yeah. Peter Bacon ** 06:52 You know, I have people who helped me. Because I had systems that I do think to my head to, to get over those other things. But I wasn't you know, that that was a struggle for me, because it was it was that thing of well, what is causing this. And obviously, I got a diagnosis when I was 16 1516, that I was just practicing. And then suddenly everything made sense. Well, that's why I'm struggling. That's why I'm finding it hard to organize myself. But also, and there were some important lessons that I learned through through that period, some of which we may touch on later. But also, I was pretty well fired up with a sense of social justice, and where that came from, what was brought up with my family and all those kinds of things. And I went to university to study politics, and did okay, there. And I came out with this idea that I wanted to do a job that made the world a better place. That was really what I was looking for. And I thought, well, I know what I do, I'll go into politics, you know, you've got an opportunity to make the world better if you're if you're in politics. So what I did, I went to work for the Liberal Democrats did jobs and sort of policy campaigns for about a year, 18 months. And after that period, I went well, I don't think I'm gonna make my difference here. I really struggle. I really struggled with it. The because actually was, you know, you had my idealized sort of West Wing idea of what politics is like. But actually, most of the time, it's just about, well, what's going to win us the next election, Michael Hingson ** 08:30 which is so sad that it's that way these days. Yeah. Peter Bacon ** 08:37 And maybe on some level, it's worse than winning the next election, because we have the better ideas that we can implement. And that's going to make the world a better place. But I struggled to find that. Yeah, I also, I also struggled to, I was really struggled with the idea of, you know, you have your party line. And you have to just parrot that, and you have to support your political party. And critically, you know, the same way that you were just sports team. And well, actually, I'm quite critical of my sports teams. But, you know, I struggled with that to the idea that actually, your ideas weren't worth much if they weren't part of the party line. So I searched for something else to do. And I had a friend, and she was working as what they call an employment visor in East London for a company called NGS. And she said, Well, this is a bit different. But there's a job over here where what you do is you sit down with people, you make and drink cups of tea, and you try and help them try and find a job to try and help them in their lives. And I said, Well, I'll give that a go. Because at least I can drink tea. There you go. So I've got half a minute. So that's how I sort of started, you know slightly cluelessly, naively, all those kinds of things. That's how I started by My career in disability employment, and it's with a few variations where I've been set. Michael Hingson ** 10:08 So what what did you start out doing? Or how did how did all of that work for you? So Peter Bacon ** 10:14 I started out on a contract called Pathways to work. So it was a government service that was contracted out to a bunch of different organizations, some for profits or not for profits. And it was essentially about helping people with what they called health conditions. So people were claiming government benefits by virtue of the fact they and disability condition illness. And I was about helping them to find work. And I work for pretty good company colleges. So you've got a decent amount of training, you know, few weeks training, perhaps, which isn't bad by industry standards, and with good follow ups, and but I was pitching I had a caseload of 100 people or more, who were living in some of the poorest parts of East London, we had pretty complex slides. And my job was to find as many as I could have that group jobs, and to be decently respectful to the rest. So that's what I was doing. And obviously, you go into it fairly cluelessly. It just at that time, the company I work for had a pretty good philosophy of just recruiting people with the right values, who are kind of bright and good communicators. And so it was it was quite a, you know, a really good band of people who are similar to me. And yeah, so So you would see people, they, they'd come because they, it's got a job. And you would work with them, you put a plan together, you talk about what their dreams were, what their aspirations were, what their motivations were, but also the things that they were facing in their lives. You put that plan together, need, they try and execute on that plan. And sometimes it would work, sometimes you would go through and they would find a job that was meaningful to them. And they would stay in that job. And it would be a great experience. But oftentimes, it didn't work that way. Because lives don't. And, you know, circumstances from change. And so you have to roll with that too. But certainly, for me, it's like an experience of you know, helping people in those situations experience that sort of thing every politician should ever have. Because actually, you really see the impact of policy. You really see how much things like a little tweak to a Working Tax Credit can make when people are right on the breadline, but is considered a real privilege to be able to help people. And it was in those moments of actually the plan coming together, and helping people to find work that was absolutely transformative to their lives, that I realized that my life's purpose was in this work. You know, I think of a guy called Derrick who came to me and first time he indicated to me, he said, is, you know, is probably in his mid 50s, late 50s, perhaps you had neck problems and back problems. But the real reason why he was off work wasn't to do with his physical shape. It was to do with the fact that he had lost a lot of hope, I think about a better future for himself. And he said, RP, I, you know, was it was it was interesting, we're in an office in Stratford in East London that overlooked at that time, the Olympic size is being built, because not that had the Olympics in 2012. years would have been about 2008 2009 sort of time, so you could literally see outside, you could see the the Olympics are being built. And so people would say, oh, there's no jobs from EP and I'd say, yeah, look out there. The world is coming to Stratford, change the chain. But Derek, you said our Pete was finished outline, which I use on everyone going live? And he said, Yeah, well, I'm not sure about that. Because my factories to be out there. And that was the last time I work and they bulldoze it for the Olympic site, which put me back on my heels a little bit. But anyway, so we talked about it. We said, well, you know, do you want to work? Yeah, I do. I just don't think I ever will again. And I said, Well, why do you want to work? as well. You don't quite like working one but really the answer is I'm ashamed by our four grandkids LM ashamed to even see them because when it comes down to their birthdays or Christmas, I can't afford presents and don't feel like I'm a proper granddad to that. And I can't hold my head high. And that was a tough thing to hear. But then, but then we got to work, you know, so Well, what do you want to do? He said, I love history. I love history too. So, you know, often talking through bits of history and aromas and such, like, we weren't, well, okay, let's try and find your job work in the museum. So we wrote to every museum, and it's sort of reasonable public transport radius of his house. And he eventually ended up getting a job at the Greenwich Maritime Museum, doing sort of like janitorial work, which was fine, this conditioning was alright with that. And he loved it. He absolutely adored it. You know, he loved seeing particularly loved seeing that sort of groups of school kids coming along as part of their tours. And he just thought, yeah, I'm part of that I'm proud to kids learning about history, which is something I'm so passionate about. But at the moment, where it really came through to me was when he sent me a photo of him and his grandkids at Christmas with their presence, just like that. Yeah, if you can, if I do anything in my life, I've done that. Right. I think he had to do that more times over the net. And then you move into other roles, and you like wanting to set the conditions where that can happen more often. But that that kind of moment was a moment, I found my purpose, because I realized that it's just a spectacular privilege of being part of that journey. Michael Hingson ** 16:32 So does he realize today how much not only did you help him, but he helped you? Peter Bacon ** 16:40 Yeah, well, I'd love to one. I don't know. I think certainly, I would talk to him about that. I'd say look, you know, things like this are the reason why, you know, I get out of bed in the morning. Why I try so hard. And, you know, thank you for that. But, uh, but perhaps, yeah, perhaps there isn't a point there actually. It wasn't mutual. a mutual thing? Yeah. Well, Michael Hingson ** 17:06 you know, it's, it's interesting to really specialize in that, and really help people find jobs. What kind of barriers did people throw in your way? As you were trying to find these? These employment opportunities? I'm sure. Employers were oftentimes very skeptical and so on, as is usually the case. Yeah, Peter Bacon ** 17:31 employee employers, frankly. So we're talking about 15 years ago, is when I was on the front line. But yeah, we've not moved that forward that far since or, or at all, really, I've moved across the world and found some of the same issues, which is I think, it is just going to blame employers. And sometimes I do. But I think also, what we need to really do is look at everything that causes that to be the case, certainly, one of the things that you hear from employers is, oh, it's just going to be too hard. You know, this is going to be extra effort for me, I don't need extra effort. I don't need burden. To point out, why do you achieve that? We actually have things that we can do to make this easier. And, you know, in the case of something like that, there'll be a massive asset to your workforce, and you have their documents. But that's even if you get to the point where you can have those make those points to a decision maker. Ultimately, the problem is that institution means so many employers are set up not to make a commitment to disability employment. One of the worst things that we've seen, you know, talking about the last 1520 years, one of the worst things that we've seen is the over professionalization of HR and recruitment. So if you say, right, I'm going to be very specific about the box that the person must fit in order for them to get to an interview, eventually get the job. Well, unfortunately, a lot of the time that specificity, rules out diversity in the two things are inherently diametrically opposed sometimes. So actually, it's a systematic exclusion is the big problem that I see. And obviously, that goes to employees, but it also goes to society, education in general. We've got to be segregated, and we've got to address those systematic issues. So if we're going back to well, what do they hear from employers in that era? What do I hear from employers now? It's really the result of the systematic thing. So you hear I don't have anyone with disability in my workforce. So I don't know that I set out to do it. I'm like, you definitely do. You just don't you just haven't set up a situation where people feel psychologically safe to disclose that. And you've not asked probably, but you will have people in your your workforce who've got disability. And if they think that, then you get to a point where being diverse and being inclusive isn't normalized, it feels weird to people it feels alien. And so therefore, they don't think, Oh, actually, it's relatively simple to employ someone like Derek or someone like Michael some like Peter, because actually, they have a pretty good idea about, about how we can work with them to tailor the job to what they need. It's it's there's almost a mythology that creeps up around it. So you need to do mythologize that you to normalize. So I think there's all sorts of barriers that get thrown in the way the reality is employees aren't doing enough. But perhaps that's also a result of factors that are we as society or as government doing enough also to address those systematic issues. So it's, it's a, it is a complex and thorny one. But I think it's something that we all need to be battling. Michael Hingson ** 20:56 Well, it's interesting to, to talk about this and to hear what you're saying. Michael Hingson ** 21:05 Because it's, it is easy to get very frustrated at employers. But we all know that they're just as much a part of society and we're raised and brought up buying into certain myths that aren't really true. But the other part about it is, however, that CEOs and so on, often start their companies because they have a vision. And the problem is they don't carry that vision over to other things other than just whatever it is that they're creating or doing. So they don't vision, having people who are different becoming part of their workforce, even though the value that is brought by a person with disability is tremendous, such as we know how hard it is to get a job. We know the unemployment rates, and how serious they are. And so if we get a job, we really are pretty grateful overall to wanting to make sure we keep that job. Peter Bacon ** 22:05 Well, that's right. I mean, what's your what's your experience? Obviously, you know, you you're from America today, it's a different, it's a different economy. It's a different culture from Australia, or Britain that I've worked in what's been your experience of employers, and maybe some of the barriers that might have been in your way, Michael Hingson ** 22:22 I think the attitudes are really the same. That is people are overall, not nearly as excited about hiring people with disabilities, because as I describe it, people think that disability means a lack of ability, and we've got to get away from that. Disability is a characteristic and we all exhibit in our own ways, whether we are blind in a wheelchair, or sighted and rely on light to be able to function. Disability is something that we all have, in one way or another. It's a characteristic that everyone on the planet has. And until we get people to recognize that disability does not mean a lack of ability, and that just because some of us are different than others, it doesn't mean that we can't do the job, we are going to continue to have these problems wherever we are in the world. Peter Bacon ** 23:21 I think that's I think that's right. And I think it's only there's a couple of points that are made to that. One is, I think we need to bring up our kids better when it comes when it comes to actually understanding that point. I think you know, I've done it before we've you know, been walking through a shopping center, and, and someone will say, you know, you'll see a kid saying, Oh, look at that, you know anything about wheelchair, I want to go out and ask the person about the wheelchair. And their mom will be like, Oh, no, don't do that. Absolutely don't no, no, no. taboo, taboo. Yeah. Well, actually, that's not unhealthy. Michael Hingson ** 24:00 No, it's not at all. It promotes the fear. It promotes Peter Bacon ** 24:03 the fear and promotes of that person's alien. They're different from us in a way that I think a lot of other ways wouldn't be tolerated. You know, you know, if your employer says, I don't want to employ this person, because they're disabled, would they be allowed to say that? If it was because they're black? No, they wouldn't. Well, they're very well or not presented, but they will be seen immediately as as being racist, but people will say that openly about people with disability. And that's bigotry. But and with all bigotry, I'm afraid. You know, you've got to start with the way that we educate our kids, the way that we talk about society and as a community. So you've got to you've got to start there. And the second one is, and I think it's why the education is so important, because it's something I think a lot about is well, what should government be doing? I, particularly with employers, to put a thumb on the scale, because as far as I concerned, the kind of just let employers gradually engage with their subjects hasn't worked. Like, it's, it's going too slowly, like in Australia, the rate of disability employment, it's maybe shifted a little, but it's not shifted much over a couple of decades of investment. And why is that? It's because we have too little expectation of employee. So I think a lot about what should government be doing to bit of a carrot and stick approach, right, so, but if you go with the stick, what I worry about is, let's say you go, and some countries do, let's put quite as in place that you have to have, you know, in America, you probably call it servitude action, right? You have, you have to engage with this, you have to do it. And my worry is that if we haven't educated society enough, when you do that, is quite counterproductive, because it breeds a certain resentment. And I think, you know, if somebody if you feel I was someone got the leg up into the job only because of a quota, that can be problematic. So I think that well actually have to do if you're gonna do something like that, you have to do the education piece around it. And that also goes to people with disability around actually knowing that it's okay, if you're doing the leveling of the playing field. And I think back to I mentioned that 16 year old me earlier. And so then dyspraxia kick, in meant that, you know, I did exam to the, you know, I'm old enough that when I did exams, it was it was handwritten, exact. That was what was expected in the UK. And my handwriting is absolutely atrocious. I struggled to write legibly, but Michael Hingson ** 26:45 but still you should have been you should have been a doctor. Peter Bacon ** 26:49 Apart from my lack of ability of all things scientific. Sure. But yeah, my team often sort of like, oh, my gosh, yeah, they see me I'll go to the whiteboard to write something on it. And it'll be impenetrable to anyone but me, right? But because of that, if they give me an extra half an hour and exam if I wanted it, so it comes down at the end of every exam, and they'd say, Pete, do you want the extra half an hour? Every single time? I said, No. Why did I say no? One, because I didn't want other people to think that I've got great grades because I had a leg up. And two, I didn't want me to think that I did. I didn't want myself to go well, I only succeeded because I but now I've reflected that and go well at all, they were trying to do them as level the playing field. But you have to acknowledge that in leveling the playing field, you have might have to sit uncomfortably with the fact that to other people, it might look like you're getting an unfair advantage. So these are all all the things I think about when I think about well, how does the government put his thumb on the scale in a way that brings society with it in a way that we at the attitudes move in a positive way? Rather than we just set it up as a kind of zero sob? You know, resentment building kind of protests. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 28:15 Well, and we really need to understand what equality and leveling the playing field is all about. You're absolutely right. In colleges today, in Well, first of all, in this country, you really probably couldn't get away with saying, Well, I can't hire you because you you're disabled, or you have a disability. Because of the Americans with Disabilities Act. In fact, there's a television show that's been on here for several years called What would you do, and it's, it's hosted by a guy named John King Yonas on ABC television. And the idea behind the show was they would put actors in situations and portray different kinds of scenarios, to see how the people around them behaved. And so my favorite is still there is one where two deaf actresses and it was in part, their idea came into a coffee shop. Well, so they were just deaf students from Rochester Institute for the Deaf, but they came in to this coffee shop and there was an actor who played the barista. And what they did is they came up and they said they wanted a job and his his role was to consistently say, I can't hire you, I'm not going to hire you. And they say, why? Well, because you're deaf. You can't hear what I say. And just, you know, you can imagine all the things that that he would say, you know, I can't hire you and, and finally, and some people looked daggers at at him and a few people really reacted pretty violently about it. But one group of three HR people pulled him aside and said, Look, you're handling this all wrong. You can't say that the person's death well, but the person to put you can't Don't say that they have more rights than we do. What you do is you accept the application then just right, not a fit, and file it. Yeah. You know, and those are HR people. The reality is that so what they're saying is, it's open discrimination that they weren't practicing, as John Ken Jonas pointed out, but the problem is, it does happen all too often. And it does still continue. And we still have any number of cases that are litigated to try to deal with it. But it ultimately comes down to we're not including people with disabilities and the subject. In life conversations, we're still feared, we're not looked at the same way other people are. And so we're not included. And as a result, we continue to see the fear promulgated, like you said, about the mother saying, don't talk to that person in the wheelchair to the child. I've seen that happen a lot. Yeah. And my wife, who was in a wheelchair, her whole life, experience the same thing. Peter Bacon ** 31:10 And I'm sure she'd love to have been asked by small town to start to sort of break down those barriers. Michael Hingson ** 31:18 Yeah, we're not breaking it down nearly as much as we can, or should I mean, look how fast we started dealing with LGBTQ and other things. Although there's and of course, the backlash of the people who hate that. But still, it's at least being talked about, it's at least out in the open. And we're almost to the end of October, which is National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And honestly, I have yet to see on any of the major TV networks in the news, or any of the shows, discussions about it. And that's what happens every single year. Peter Bacon ** 31:55 You're so right. I mean, it's a really in Australia, it's actually I think we're having an important moment, it's still not as prominent as I'd like it to be. But what we just had his we just had what we call a Royal Commission here with and that's sort of the big, well funded commissions. That happened every few years into critical issues. And this one was what we call the shorthand it phrase, the disability Royal Commission, but it was really looking at the whole piece around exclusion, and exploitation and abuse of people with disability in the system. And the reason why it's an important moment, is because that Royal Commission reported down that Australia is systematically excluded excluding people with disability from mainstream life. And that results in some terrible things, it certainly results in the kind of things we've been talking about in terms of, you know, worse economic outcomes. But it also involves things like people be absolutely abused the system. So, and it's harrowing to think about, it's harrowing to read. But it's important, because you've got to name the problem before you start dealing with it. And the problem is that systematic exclusion, so a number of things are going to come out of that report, as they're forming your task force on the back of it, there is some, the headline thing is the desegregation of education, which will sort of happen over the coming decades, because it's not easy to change it. But obviously, that's about getting rid of dual systems of schooling and properly funding, inclusive schooling with a mainstream education. But there's also things there, like the entering ending of sheltered workshops where people with disability are paid to the very, you know, I made to sort of, you know, it's a job, but it's at a rate far less than national minimum wage, to do routine jobs. So there's things like that. But also, there's things that sort of, I think, hit on the world of the immediate world of disability employment, too. So I see this is a moment where everyone Australia can say, actually, we know because they met $600 million review has happened into the way that we treat people with Australia, disability in Australia. And that fundamentally, the way that we treat people disability is a disgrace. And let's start changing that. Let's let this be the moment where we say, Ah, that was the moment where the government pivoted where society got on board and we've really changed things for the better. And those things unfortunately, you can't you can't change the way that society others thinks about people with disability as being alien, or there's going to be can't do it overnight. Right. But the best way to do it is to name it and to start working on it. So to have those points around how do we start doing it? I think actually calling it out for what it is. And then moving on from there is an important moment for Australia. Michael Hingson ** 35:20 I think that is definitely a good start. And one of the things that I think would be very helpful is if the Commission as they're going through and talking about solutions, would make sure that part of what they do is include disability education, in the school system, we've got to start teaching children about it. And we've got to start teaching children, not to fear disabilities, not to fear people with disabilities. And to understand all it really means is they're different. Yeah, Peter Bacon ** 35:52 I think that's that's exactly right. I think the desegregation of schools is part of that. But you're right. But to train kids to do that, you also need to train their teachers to think like that. You need to train the parents to think like that. And I think you're right, it's exactly that it's about going well, actually, we're all different. We all have different things that we bring to the table, we all have different challenges. Don't Don't other people don't go, oh, just because someone's in a wheelchair. That's the fact that's their defining characteristic. It isn't. It isn't it? is their way of getting round. Michael Hingson ** 36:31 Makes it as part of what makes them who they are. But it's just a part, just like yeah, short people aren't going to make great centers in basketball, or probably not unless they can jump real high. But the reality is that, that we all have gifts, and we all need to be able to use the gifts that we have. And it's important to recognize that I've talked several times on this podcast about how I say everyone has a disability. And for most people, your light dependent, if the power goes out, you guys are in a world of hurt until you find a new light source. But that doesn't mean that you don't have a disability says that mostly because we've really concentrated on making light on demand part of our lives, you don't generally have the problem. But I've seen it happen all too often where the power goes out and people don't know what to do. They start screaming, and they may or may not find a flashlight or a smartphone to turn on to get light. But that's the first thing they want to do is to get light. I don't need to do that. Peter Bacon ** 37:36 No, no. And you know, that might might be one of the reasons why, you know, when you know that in the Twin Towers, you actually were able to deal with things currently. Michael Hingson ** 37:47 Not really, because we had power and lighting all the way down. The reason that I was able to deal with it was that I learned what to do in an emergency. And it created I learned it so deeply and so well, that it created a mindset in me. Because I was imagining all sorts of things above us, when we saw people coming down the stairs, past us who were burned and so on. We can only imagine what was going on up above. But, you know, I was on the south side of the building when it was hit on the north side. And the belt building was hit 18 floors above us. So as people you know, people always say, Well, of course you didn't know you couldn't see it, excuse me, nobody could Superman and X ray vision were are not real yet. And the fact is, as we were going down the stairs, nobody knew what was going on. I was the first one with a group near me that figured out, we were smelling something and I figured out it was the fumes from burning jet fuel. But what we still didn't really know. And the reality is it's not a matter of eyesight. But for me getting down was all about having knowledge. I didn't rely on needing to read signs to know what to do. I already knew what to do. Peter Bacon ** 39:00 You and that is an example of how to you had a strength, you're prepared. You know which which I think again, is goes to how different people have different challenges and different strengths, but because of who they are. And that strength, it's a blight. So it's an incredibly powerful and patient example of that. And I think when we think about the workplace and again, it's about understandings of understandings of disability. And it's not just that I speak to employers, and they go, alright, well. I don't have anyone working here with disability because I don't have anyone in the wheelchair. And I say, what well are the 4% of people with disability near the wheel wheelchair, that's just like one element. Yeah. And, and so, you know, they say, Oh, well, I don't want you know, art or they might say, Oh, well, you know on disability accessible, I've put in ramps everywhere. And I like good. I'm glad you've put in ramps everywhere good stuff. However that is that is not it? And then the conversation goes well actually one is one is the most important thing that we can do to be close to people with disability. And I say actually, it's about approach. It's about attitude. It's about well, actually, am I going to do exactly what you said, which is take people as they come and say, Well, what are you good at? And one of the things that we're going to need to think about in terms of the way that we manage you. So you might get somebody you know, I've had this and the job was always had that conversation, I say, How can I help you to thrive in work? What can help you flourish here? And so I might say, Well, I'm basically fine. But I do get quite acute stress, and anxiety. And here's the times when that happens. These are my triggers. So one of them, it might be doing a big presentation. And so and so then you then you get into a real conversation about how to manage someone, it's not really about disability, although you might, if it's significant enough, it might be classed as disability is a base about how to manage somebody within their full self. So so this person might say, well, actually my triggers big presentation. So you said right, okay, so Are we avoiding in presentations, then? No. But what I might need is a day free before that clear to make sure I'm absolutely 100% prepared, is that will mitigate my anxiety? Okay, well, what we'll do is we're going to block out your diary, for a day before we get to those big presentations. That's fine. And I think that, you know, it's, it's that point about actually just managing the whole person. So you can bring your whole self to work. You got some great strengths that we want to maximize, you got some challenges that we need to think about mitigate whatever. And that's the biggest change that most employees can make to actually get the biggest workplace adaptation that you can make. And I think that's one of the main things that I'm saying to employers, and then they go, I can do that. That's fine. I can do that. Well, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 42:12 Well, the other thing, it seems to me is if I, if I find a person who was very stressed out, because they were afraid of doing big presentations, and they needed a day to prepare, but then they came in and did the best presentation I ever saw. I would want to start giving that person more big presentations, and more days to prepare, because eventually, they're going to realize they don't need a day to prepare anymore. They're used to doing it, which is another part of the process. People always say one of their biggest fears is public speaking. And I'm sure people say to me, and would say to me, Well, you're not afraid because you can't see the audience. Look, my first presentation, after September 11 was two weeks. And a day later, I had been invited to speak at a church service in central New Jersey. And I asked the pastor, how many people were going to be at this outdoor service 6000. I knew the number. I knew what that meant. Don't tell me about whether I can see them or not. I knew they were there. But it did. It didn't matter. Because I was used to talking to people in a variety of different kind of public situations. But I realized that a lot of people are afraid of public speaking, because that's what they've been taught. That's what they've been told, is one of our greatest fears. And we've got to get away from doing so much to teach people how to be afraid. Peter Bacon ** 43:40 Yeah, I think that's that's exactly right, to teaching people how to be afraid, but also teaching people that difference. Difference is something to be afraid of. I mean, the whole of human history is a litany of being afraid of difference, and then acting in terrible ways because of it. You know, to get to the point about politics, like who are the politicians who are who are least like that we need to get to political? Yeah, it is those who seek to amplify those divisions, or create new divisions where none existed, right? That that is the most awful thing that people can do. And unfortunately, it's still wielded as a weapon like that, to this day. I suspect the next US presidential election, that's going to be a big part of it. And the more that we do that, the harder we're going to be able to get away from this actual where it is get to is just common sense. And we are all people. We're all here trying to live good lives. Doesn't matter whether you've got a disability, what the color of your skin is, any of those things, that we are all different and that's good. It is not bad. And I think getting to that realization runs to the heart of where disability employment is which is Disability Employment is good. Being an employer, we have a diverse staff is good, I can show you the numbers. But really, I want you to believe it in your heart more than I want you to believe it in your mind. Because that's where real change happens. And Michael Hingson ** 45:13 that's where we have to go, we have to recognize that part of the cost of doing business should and is inclusion, whatever that means. I mean, we provide coffee machines for people, we provide monitors for people. The National Federation of the Blind is the largest consumer organization of blind people in the United States. And they pay a hefty electric bill every month at the National Center in Baltimore, Maryland, for the sighted people who work there to be able to have lights. Yeah, those are those of us who are blind. And those who work there who are blind, don't need the lights. But the other people do the light dependent people. So whose disability are we providing an accommodation for the real? Peter Bacon ** 46:01 Nice adaptation? Yeah, good estimate the workplace adaptation for the site? I think. Yeah, it Michael Hingson ** 46:05 is. It is, it's a reasonable accommodation for sighted people who are light dependent. So I love to use light dependent instead of sighted people because that's the disability that we we have to deal with, for all of you. And it is it is still, you know, something that is so rarely really discussed. But speaking of differences, and so on what decided to take you away from London to Australia? Peter Bacon ** 46:34 The short answer is love. Which is the best answer, isn't it? Yeah, my wife's Australia. So Nicola, we met we met in the UK, we both work for a company I work for that it just is an Australian company, both work there and, you know, sort of got together there. And then the Bentley sort of production point of having found in that kind of thing. And it's really well, where do you want to bring up your family. And for us, Australia, it's great, great place to bring up your family, you know, they got good weather, we were walking distance for the beach, it's a great place to bring up kids. And I was also offered the opportunity to move. Yeah, I sort of want to look at the mate said. So. It's always made for me in the stories, isn't it, mate said. Others. There's a job out here with your name on it, Pete, which is sort of heading up strategy for not for profit, we've had significant disability employment services. So that was part of what I was looking at. But also there was other things that I was doing to which I was quite a joy when I was there. Clearly, I said a pub. Obviously, in Australia, we had the terrible bushfires four years ago now, you know, burned a huge amount of land. Yeah, scarred families, economies. And like, you know, the sad part of Southern New South Wales, particularly where, you know, did quite a lot of work for my previous employer. And the trauma that's there from that entire experience is absolutely palpable. And so being part of a nonprofit that had a significant presence in that world, but you know, they're headquartered Campbell pays for company was headquartered in Batemans. Bay, which is right at the heart of when it was buyers here. I was I was trying to do something positive. So what we did is we set up a social enterprise, which was about doing Bush regeneration, giving jobs training, to really disadvantaged people, many young people, but not exclusively in that area. But there was a lot of big bush regeneration to be done a lot of planting a lot of just work to, to make sure that healthy landscape again. And so yeah, that was that was, well, you know, we've got some good funding and to do that, we've pivoted a bit commercial social enterprise to and so and suddenly, I really enjoyed to the idea of becoming more of a job creator as well as just an advocate for disability, Clomid. That's your job creation was was great. And also, you know, we had a very diverse team, they're physically, you know, hard to get people with sort of major physical conditions into Bush regeneration jobs, but certainly people pretty significant disabilities, psychosocial conditions, etc. And there's opportunity for them to learn the craft of how you look after the land around you how you connect to that land and strengthen it. And so that was something which I did when I was there that I really enjoyed. Michael Hingson ** 49:49 So what's the organization that you work for now? 49:51 So now I work for an organization called Disability Employment Australia. So I've been co there for eight for nine months now. And our job is to represent was I always think that we have sort of two key sort of stakeholders in this. So the first is, we are the Industry Association for providing the Disability Employment Services in Australia, what that includes those who deliver what we call death, disability employment service, but also other services such as the National Disability Insurance Scheme. And then our call beneficiary, which is, of course, people with disability, making sure that we are holding the government to account when it comes to making sure that it's doing all the right things, in terms of policy settings for people with disability, and importantly, that we're leading the charge when it comes to doing things like getting employees to engage with diversity and inclusion. So, yeah, that's here to work for now. Michael Hingson ** 50:56 Wow. So you, you sound like you really love it? And do you get to influence the government a lot? Because of what you do? 51:05 I'd like to think so. You know, it's recently had the year of, of government, of ministers and state departments. So, yes, I think we have a pretty good voice to government. And there's lots of relatively important things where we've been influential. So if you look at say, the Royal Commission report that I was referencing earlier, there's quite a few things in there that we, disability, Australia, have been advocating for, like the institution of a Disability Forum and center for excellence. Like it's there's some technical things around the level of mutual obligation, which is effectively sanctions regimes that people with disability have if they don't engage, which we are in favor of limiting. Also, things like eligibility or support from government, require influential and so so yeah, I think we have the year of government. We're just a small organization, though. So we need to punch above our weight. But but also, we importantly, have very good relationships with our members. So we are able to be quite influential in helping them to collaborate and to work on things that are cross sectoral. So for example, we are currently about to launch a new training module, which is there a micro credential for all disability employment professionals in the field of Australia. So we're doing quite a lot to raise the standards in our industry, too. Michael Hingson ** 52:50 Were you involved in doing any of the work with the Commission? Or how did how did you have input to help that? 52:57 Yeah, so they had a series of hearings or consultations, as well as opportunities to pull in submissions. And, you know, da were did testify at those hearings, and provided a lot of submissions around around these issues of employment, obviously, employment is only one relatively small element of what they were, they were looking at it from a whole system's perspective. But yeah, so do a pilot that we're constantly making policy submissions on on other items. So we have something called the National Disability Insurance Scheme here. It's a major thing. Which funds support for people with disability lifelong disability, where they get better chunks of funding that they can administer, and spend on the things they need to live a more independent and happy life. And there's many great things about that scheme. really supportive of it. But it's something that's been implemented over the last decade, and it certainly has some improvements that can be made. And some of those improvements, for example, are in the world of employment and how it actually claimant to participants of the NDIS can receive more support and support when it comes to employment. So that's the kind of thing was we're making policy submissions into a lot. Michael Hingson ** 54:25 What kind of global lessons, 54:30 global lessons that we can learn from, what you're doing, or just global lessons in general that you feel that we need to tell the world more about, and encourage the world to adopt. 54:41 But I think there's two things I talked about. One is, I think we probably need to get a bit better at sharing. It's funny because, you know, I speak to people I email or colleagues from from other countries of the world. And we're dealing with the same things, you know, especially those kind of Western The veteran style developed economies, right. So I went to the World Association's post employment conference in Vancouver in June of this year. And I was struck by the similarities and the fact that actually workforce participation rates, people with disability are consistently at that sort of mid 50s type rate. I think I'm slightly better at a macro, actually. But that might be sort of the way that you count unemployment. But there's a lot of similarities, then we need to share. So one thing I'm quite excited about is I am on the board of the World Association supported employment. And in four years time, the global conference is coming to Australia. And it's a workout with Sydney, we're going to host a live but it's coming to Australia. So that's a good example of where we collaborate. But in terms of the lessons of what works, and global literature review, and speaking with colleagues and that kind of thing, the big thing I would say, is that you can talk all you like about technology and all sorts of WIZO innovations. But the reality is, there's nothing more powerful than the humans helping humans. That's, that's the reality is, if you've got somebody who needs a bit of support, find a job to overcome their challenges. Having somebody who read he's got a bit of expertise, who really cares, he wants to build a relationship, and they share that journey together. That is a most important thing that you can do. Obviously, there are variables in there like how well trained is that other staff have experienced? Are they? Do you have access and technology that maybe helps that Job Search work better? How are your relationships with employers, all those things count? But most important of all, is have you got a really committed human helping that other human? Because that's where you see transformations. Michael Hingson ** 56:54 We've talked a lot about attitudes, which I think is absolutely appropriate, and probably the biggest thing we face. But at the same time, what's the role of Technology and Disability Employment and making it better? Do you think? 57:09 I think it's a really interesting question. And one that I'm grappling with, I think, you look at any of the sorts of papers about the future directions of economies, etc. And you see, our world is higher skilled jobs, AI or that kind of thing. And I think AI certainly is, is it is an opportunity, because the ability to work within those systems is not restricted to geography. So I think that's something which, as it evolves, could be a really great thing for people with disability who are who want work, also can do things like overtime, it will improve things like job matching, all that kind of thing to make to take a bit of friction out of that system. But the biggest development, and one, which I hadn't necessarily foreseen is the flexibility that workplaces are now taking primarily because the pandemic happened. You know, it's funny, you know, you spend years talking to businesses about actually you can change your business model, you can be more flexible, you can use remote working more, and again, and that to heart that if we need to do that it'd be a five year change management project. And then the pandemic happens. Yeah. And they do it within two weeks. Michael Hingson ** 58:35 And I was only asking you about whether you thought that the pandemic made a significant difference in disability employment and just the world in general. And you're talking about that. Go ahead. I Peter Bacon ** 58:45 think so. I think it has, because I think it means that the idea, I mean, it's kind of things Firstly, more people are working at home, I'm calling in, I can see you're you're in your house, I mean by house. Five years ago, at least I would have been in my office, right. So that so the fact that we're now working that hybrid way or the remote way, certainly erodes the importance of geography in a way, which I think is important for people with disability and respect for everyone, frankly. And that's a pretty big change. However, one of the things around that that I think about quite a lot is that firstly, it tends to apply more to people who already have a job. So as you there's a relatively small percentage of jobs that are advertised with flexibility of that, compared to the number of jobs, we've actually done flexibly if you know what I mean. So if you're in a job and you say, right, okay, can I have an extra day a week to work at home? Lots of employers will accommodate that. However, they won't necessarily advertise the fact that they're to do so. The other thing is around the types of jobs so So, obviously people with disabilities at all different types of jobs, but the ones who are unemployed tend to go in at those relatively low levels, not exclusively by any means, but tend to. And then you hope there's an opportunity to build up from there. But again, those jobs, which are at the relatively low levels tend to be the ones with less flexibility. I think it's notable that, you know, we talked a lot around the sort of key personnel, key service workers during COVID. And then all the ones those were people badly paid, but have to be present. And I think there's a reality there, which really to think through a little bit more about how the benefits of flexibility can accrue to people working at all levels of the labor market, and how we can also be upfront advertised flexibility as a component of the role, rather than something that has to be asked for what what somebody's in the room? Yeah, well, Michael Hingson ** 1:00:58 and the problem is, I see both sides of that, because they're all too many people who try to take too much advantage of things. And so it is an issue, but at the same time, we do need to recognize that there is a value and be more flexible than we have. And I think we're seeing more that in reality, it's a good thing to let people have some time to work at home, less stress. So many things happen if you do that, right. 1:01:29 Ah, yeah, absolutely. And for all sorts of reasons. In my personal case, it gives me more talent for kids exactly, like more than out to get into the city. You know, that's three hours each day that I get back to spend with my children. But that's, you know, kids aren't young for long. That's massive. So, so there's huge advantages. And that's great for my well being, which makes me a more productive worker be you know, so there's huge advantages to do that. Yeah, maybe people might take advantage sometimes. But it's your good boss, you have an understanding of the output of people working for you. And you understand what acceptable looks like and what not acceptable looks like I think, Michael Hingson ** 1:02:13 well, yes, it's right. If you're a good boss, you, you deal with the people who are taking advantage of it. And hopefully, they they grow to understand. 1:02:25 Yeah, that's right. And, you know, and you can, you can always have a look at the, the way that you extend the flexibility. But But overall, I did, and is a, a massively important part of what's happened over the over the past five years. But also, we should not ignore that lesson of how quickly employers can pivot if they need to, if they need to. Yeah, all those businesses like, you know, the ones that make gin, who are making hammers that hand sanitizer, within a week of having to do it, by when they need to, when there's an economic imperative to do so. Businesses can change fast. So what's the implication for Disability Employment one is around flexibility. But the second is, if you really wanted to pivot to being a fantastic inclusive employer, people with disabilities, you can change quickly. Yep, it's not this thing that is a five year change management project as Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 1:03:23 I agree. What are your hopes for the future in terms of disability employment type services, and so on? I am hopeful. 1:03:35 And I think we have to be in the kind of work that we do. So from an Australian perspective, and is to that point, which I made earlier around, there was a moment here, where we've admitted what the problem is. And that problem is systematic exclusion. If we start from that premise, and start building from that premise, I think there's a lot of hope. If we go well, actually, what we need to do exactly, as you say, is address education and awareness and attitudes. That's a great start. If we start disaggregating ourselves, that will be these are things that are actually the building blocks to changing the way that disability employment works. Beyond that, I think I have a moment and the kind of people I work with in my movement, to really lobby government are making substantive change that will change the prospects for people with disability when it comes to employment. So this point around, you know, can I get to the government saying, right, you need to put the thumb on you no need to put your thumb on the scale when it comes to employers and how much they're engaging. That conversation is now open. When I go to the, you know, government and say, You need to be better employers of people with disability, your your right to employ people disability or pitiful. Well, they are going to need to change, you know, so I think we are in a moment now. Certainly in Australia, where we've named the problem. We know that it can't be swept under the carpet. And we can start dealing with it. So that makes me very hopeful for the future. globally. It's a classic case of you know, the certain Lucic Martin Luther King quote about the the Ark of moral justice being being long, but it doesn't waver on a straight line. I think that's, I think, I think that's where we're at, like, I think I think we are moving towards degrees of progress, but it's slow. My hope is that we can use moments like the one that we have in Australia at the moment to accelerate that to move down the curve further, faster. And I think there is certainly the opportunity to do that. I don't think people are born wanting to discriminate against others because of their disability or ability. I think that's learned. And we need to unlearn it, and we need to unlearn it fast. So I do have lots of hope. But I also recognize that this is going to be my life's work and the life and so many others work and we need to press on because the task is is large, and it's complex, but it's also incredibly important. Michael Hingson ** 1:06:10 Yeah, well, it is. And I, I would say anyone who listening, I hope appreciates what you say and what you do. And I hope that we all learn something from it. Have you written any books or anything on the subject? Peter Bacon ** 1:06:24 God not written any books that haven't written yet? admittance, ready to write an anthology of my policies and missions will be a bit dry? Maybe I'll write about one day? Michael Hingson ** 1:06:34 Well, I, Michael Hingson ** 1:06:35 I hope you do, because I think it would be well worth having. And it's certainly well worth reading. But I want to thank you for being with us. If people want to reach out to you and engage in some way, how can they do that? Peter Bacon ** 1:06:49 Well, email me. So that's Peter bacon, at Disability employment.org.au. Michael Hingson ** 1:06:56 And as P e t e r B a c o n Peter Bacon ** 1:07:00 like the delicious breakfast food. Right? Michael Hingson ** 1:07:04 So just Peter bacon disability employment.org.au. There you go. Well, I hope people will reach out. And I hope that everyone got a lot out of today I did. I always like to talk about these things. And it helps me always put more things in perspective. And I get to learn what other people are thinking. So I find it very valuable. So thank you for being here with us. And thank you for listening. And I hope all of you out there like this. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We value your ratings and your reviews. So please do it. If you'd like to reach out to me and have any thoughts or opinions I want to get them from you please email me at Michaelhi M i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael Hingson is mi c h a e l h i n g s o n all one word. Again please give us a five star rating we value that. We'd love to hear from you. And I hope that you'll be with us the next time we do unstoppable mindset and Peter one last time. I want to really thank you for being here. This has been wonderful and we really appreciate you coming on and Sheldon from accessiBe finding you for us. Peter Bacon ** 1:08:26 Thanks, Mike. I appreciate that. Michael Hingson ** 1:08:32 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
