Salvatore Mancuso habla sobre empresarios y políticos

0:00 In the WU, Colonel' s report came, because the time had come, the Colonel' s report with a very special guest and a menu, a number of subjects that the country is waiting to hear. Daniel, welcome to your guest. Good morning, July. This is the Colonel report. Salvatore Mancuso was the top leader of Colombia' s so- called united self - defenses after the murder of Carlos Castaño, ordered by his own brother. Unlike almost all other paramilitary leaders, Mancuso is a man who received an exquisite education, attended the University of Pittsburgh in the United States and damaged them in Bogotá. He attended the Monteria social clubs and perhaps others in Bogotá, and knows when some good people decided to associate with criminals within the logic of all - mancuso ballet. He returned to Colombia after serving his sentence in the United States and having gone through a sort of limbo, waiting to see if he was sent to Colombia or Italy, a country whose nationality is to be the son of an Italian immigrant. He came from one limbo and fell into another because although he has spent fifteen years in prison there in the United States paying his sentence for drug trafficking, he has pending matters in three jurisdictions, the ordinary one, Justice and Peace, created as a special court for the paramilitaries

1:30 and the Jep made for the guerrillas of the Far members of the security forces and third parties responsible. The hep was not initially designed to prosecute self- defense members like him, but now it seems like it is. Within the legal gibberish in which we live. His landing in Colombia, just over three months ago, has some terrified by everything he knows and can say without a doubt there are many topics to talk to him. That' s why I salu dains mos at this hour from La Picota prison in Bogotá. Mr Mancuso, good morning, good morning, Daniel, a respectful greetings for you, for Julio, for Don at home, for all those at the table and their listeners and followers. Mr Mancuso, I would like us to start this conversation with a very topical subject. A few hours ago, just over a day ago, she was condemned civilianly in the United States, multinational Bananera Chiquita Brands for the funding she gave you paramilitaries. U S justice ordered the Bananera to pay$ 33 3 million to eight families, but the outstanding cases are more than six zero and compensation could exceed$ 16 trillion. Please tell us what it was like that Chiquita paid you as Chiquita and your subsidiaries as Gracias.

3:02 That' s very kind of you. That question is very important at this historic moment in the country. Before, however, I would like to clarify that I returned to the country not because I was in a legal limbo. I could wait and leave for Italy or stay even in America. However, President Dr Gustavo Petro invited me to be peace manager. I went back to the country because I want to honor that designation you make me. President, I have a debt of honor to the victims that I will pay off in the rest of my life and I wanted to come to Colombia to help with peace. There was a time when I realized that our action was similar to that of the enemy we were fighting in the guerrillas and I proposed to the Brown commanders that we start a peace process. And then, when we start the free versions, you will remember a righteous commander who still had an altivez and who was giving free versions. I still felt at the time that I had been a self- defense commander, but when I saw the pain of the victims, I looked into their eyes to lie to suffering. I heard the explanation for the impressive damage we caused him. Many of the media said that I became a wretch and indeed, I couldn' t stand the damage, although I wanted to retain it for the pain I felt duty and feel that pain, which was minimal to what the victims have felt and from

4:35 that moment I promised that I would have to work for the rest of my life, because these situations of tragedy and barbarism do not recur. That is why I returned to the country and because I have nothing to do with the justice of Colombia, the world or any country in the world. I paid him everything Colombian justice would tell him and I deserve freedom. In addition, I am appointed a peace historian who is asked to lift the insurance measures that I can see in my case and have not been lifted I am being detained illegally and arbitrarily. At this moment justice has become politicized in my case and that situation has a justification. They do not want me to go free, they do not want me to exercise the stories of peace so that I can help the country, so that it can help on the agenda of non- rebels and can advance this government serious negotiations that lead to the dismantling of these illegal structures and here the country already passes that no more victims are produced.

5:45 And that situation is precisely so that this is not an attack on me, nor is it an attack on the Government of President Petro, of course, that they attack, but it is a direct attack on the country, on the peace of the country, on the victims who continue to be revictimized and it is a terrible situation, in a barbarous manner that prevents us when the commitments precisely to what we are called to enter to help with the peace of the country, from being prevented from doing so. And besides, I have the right to freedom by the two transitional justice systems. But if they do not comply with me, what is the message being sent to these rearmed groups to demobilize to submit to one of those two justice systems and neither of the two accomplices. That' s why I' m analyzing and studying with my lawyers the possibility of giving up one or the two transitional justice systems because in my case they haven' t complied and this is barbaric. What is the message sent to these armed groups with which this Government is pursuing processes and wants to advance with other groups. In fact, I have received messages from many of them, from some not all, who want to move forward in that process. There are even dialogues already ready to move forward with the Government, with the Office of the High Commissioner for Peace, which are to be established promptly. And that is a situation that we urgently need to resolve, because if the justice system, the system of closing justice, to which they are

7:19 going to submit, fails and this is a huge barbarity, because that is non- compliance with legal insecurities. They led to the murder of five zero people from the self- defence forces who killed after the demobilization. That subject led them to reassemble. They are then inviting them to continue in the mountains, to continue in the cities to continue armed non- rebel groups and even the other rebel groups, because the rifle bullet that comes out regardless of the rifle that shoots it produces victims regardless of who shoots it. Then that issue can' t go on like that. Now the little girl thing. That ' s a good one. There' s the first news. We have first news. With this. Salvatore Mancuso is telling us that he is thinking of giving up one of the two jurisdictions, or Justice and Peace or the GEB because he feels that they have not met either. I would like to return to that subject later, but I would like to ask you about the issue of Chiquita' s financing, which was not just about money. They used an area in a special way granted to them by the government of the time to establish a port in Sungo in the Uraba, where 3, 000 rifles arrived for paramilitary groups, rifles that were used in massacres in several that

8:50 are proven to have caused the displacement of thousands of people. Mr Mancuso Chiquita has said in the U S courts that they have agreed not for extortion, that you made them give that money with a rifle aimed at them and that they would not really have wanted to be involved in crimes. That' s true. That Chiquita thing is a resounding success for the country, as I was saying a moment ago, which is a success for the victims. To the extent that it is recognized that the moneys that entered the armed conflict, regardless of the actor to whom the resources had been given, because Chiquita gave resources to the Lepel guerrillas and the fart in the banana zone and also to the self- defence. They were resources that were used and that caused enormous damage, a humanitarian tragedy in Colombia and that were used by the actors of the conflict to make war. So, Chiquito Baran gave money to the self - defense. It wasn' t with a rifle in his head. They came from handing over resources to the guerrillas. When we met with them, Commander Carlos Castaño in person and other commanders and thus contributed three cents per box of exported bananas. I have already said that, I was even a witness in that trial in the United States, which advanced against Chiquita Bran, one of the commanders of the paramilitaries who was present and articulating this entire association with

10:24 Chiquita is Raúl Hasbon who is known with the alias of Pedro Bonito. He said that all this was in the knowledge of who was the Secretary of Government of the Department of Antioch, of the Government of Antiok at that time, Pedro Juan Moreno. You had contacts with Pedro Juan Moreno. Yes, I had contacts with Pedro Amoreno, like many self- defense commanders, of course I did. You can remind us, Mr Mancuso, who was the Governor of Antioch when Pedro Juan Moreno Villa was the Secretary of Government. It was former President Alvaroura and Bebelis. He was also aware of this funding to the paramilitaries. Well, I don' t know if I was in from this funding to self- defense. What I know is that Pedro Juan was the right hand of the Governor of Anchocha for that moment. You have said that the governor of that time,Álvaro Urío de Belez, was aware of the massacre of the ring of this procedure in the Ituango area, which was a criminal operation that caused dozens of deaths, also executed in a supremely cruel way.

11:46 Why do you say that Governor Alvaro Uribe knew how to look at Mr Pedro Juan Moreno and we have to remember the historical context of the country. By that time, we had a state military forces cornered by the guerrillas, guerrilla forces strengthened by the money of drug trafficking, with impressive weaponry for that moment, with a military capacity and enormous mobilization, were able to gather in that block José María Córdoba, which operated in that region about 1, 800, 000 men within a few hours and its action was tremendous in that area.

12:28 At that time there were what they called miraculous fishing, which were massive hijackings that they made between the roads of the country, in this specific case, between Montería and Medellino, Medilin and Montería, and for the area of the Aro and this entire area of the Farm and this region. They said that there they had concentration camps for barbarians and guerrillas and that it was where they had the kidnapped who held back from these miraculous plagues. Pedro Juan Mor does not meet with Comandante Carlos Browno with a thousand people and asks us to support the military forces in an operation to rescue those kidnapped and to expel the guerrillas from that area, to push them towards the high mountain and the rear areas, where there was not much population, where they were away from the urban populations. That way we started to organize the operation that finally took time afterwards and indeed, it was a barbarity to get to an area that is what is really configured in that action. A state crime. It is when we go with a list that the army delivers to us the brigade at that moment and there are pointed out supposed guerrillas, militiamen, financial collaborators of the guerrillas and with that list in hand we assassinate those people in that ras configurating

14:01 what is a state crime of the hand of the State. And it was this situation that Mr Pedro Juan Moreno asked us to go and advance those armaments that were used in those violent actions and in others in the country. Many entered the port of Sumungo, as you said earlier. Three thousand rifles entered on one side, but the other was three thousand six hundred rifles and part of them were unloaded in the Gulf of Uraba in the port of Chiquita brand of Zongo, perfect. That' s how you told us they supplied the list to the military. Who was the military commander of the area when you received that list of people who should be killed the military commander of the self - defence or army, the army commander, previously in that area of General Mano Salva And after I think by that time, because General Monos Salva' s died, entered, I believe General Los Pinas, who became General Commander of the military forces. Mr Mancuso, you say there were several helicopters involved in this massacre, one carrying you to yourself, one that was an official helicopter. Which entity belonged to that helicopter. Look I was in a helicopter

15:33 between, like, two or three times, I don' t remember exactly at this time, but between several times, to carry ammunition, to take out wounded dead, to carry relays of the self- defenses, there was also the helicopter of the Governorate of Antioquia, overflying the area and was helicopter of the army and the guerrilla helicopter also in the area at that time, that is, you confirm that a helicopter of the governor. The former President of the Baruribe has been saying for years that that is not true. You confirm that a governor' s helicopter was involved in that massacre. Well, the helicopter on the bolon. In fact, the governor’ s helicopter was on several occasions in the self- defense camps. On it. On some occasions they reached humanitarian commissions and Pedro Juan Moreno arrived. There were several occasions when a helicopter landed in self- defence camps in the Uraba region. One thing is a humanitarian mission, and another is the use of an official helicopter to facilitate the killing of civilians. What was the case with the governor' s helicopter in the massacre flew over the area where we were in combat in advance of that terrible operation. You have also stated that you have met several times with former President Alvaro Uribe, things he denies. What' s more, he published some triunes saying this bandit of mancuso savers wants to change the

17:10 version about the hoop to justify the benefit of the malicious creation of the hep park' s hinge. You met or did not meet withÁlvaro Uribe on what occasions and where. I met him several times with Governor Ulibe for that time. In fact, it is his right to defend himself and to say what he considers to be inconvenient, but the truths are absolutely forceful. And I went with what I said by Colonel Raúl Suárez, who was commander of the police of Cordoba. We found ourselves in a race that everyone could see of horses that we did, that ran a mare of mine, even at that time it was called the gringa, a mare of medium- yellow Roman colour is the Roman color those who do not know the color and even won against a horse of a cousin of him, so we have met on several occasions, of course, neighbor and we have met in commercial places of mountainry some things i is a casual encounter, as he admits that perhaps he saw it before you were involved with the so- called self- defenses, that greeted him from far away, but others met. He says you never went to a farm on him, that' s not true. You are prepared for a face- to- face discussion with Mr President of the Balurio, to support what you have said. He can say what he sees fit for

18:45 his defense. These issues specifically should not be politicized, because they influence decision - making in justice. I have told these issues to transitional justice. They will make the decisions of the case. But the idea here is not to put President Uribe in jail. He was our partner in the war and today I invite him to be a partner in peace. I don' t think anyone wins anything from people getting into jail. The prison is a crime university, the Farsa guerrillas demobilized and went to the Congress of the Republic. Why do you have to go to jail that pays a restorative penalty like the one Mr Laforit is paying right now? La Foria is carrying out a mission of peace manager, excellent mission, I am told, and it is bringing peace to the country. So I think the important thing in this matter is that those of us who had responsibilities in the conflict, even more so who were allies of self- defense in this absurd war that, regardless of who won it militarily, we all lost it, lost the whole country, the victims, what we generated and what we gained from them. So, that situation, I think, we need to re- evaluate it and observe exactly that Mr Uribe can contribute a lot more to the country, because he still has a great political influence on the peace of this country, on a restorative sanction,

20:15 on the building of peace among all of us. We cannot continue to live from war and violence and draw political and economic returns, from conflict, from the victims of the dead. This we have to finish, and that ' s why I' m back in the country. That is why it is so important that I can exercise the stories of peace and that I can be at liberty. From here it is impossible to move forward in the way that we have to move forward. It strikes me that you qualify as restorative management. What Mr President of Fedegan, José Feliz, Lafori is doing in the peace process with the Eln I want to ask him what was the role of José Félix Aforie in the election of Mario Iguaran as Attorney General of the Nation and what was the participation of the self- defense groups in that election of the Attorney General. Well, look, I' m going back to what you say. Mr Lafor is playing an excellent role for the country and for peace as a peace manager in the negotiations with the ELNE, and that seems to me to be absolutely rescueable and that is what would invite all those of us who had certain types of responsibilities, directly or indirectly, in the armed conflict to move forward. It' s the way peace is made in the country and I really applaud it. As for the issue of Mario Guaran

21:45 ' s election I was demobilized by that time. To me they proposed that if I could help tip the balance in favor of Mr Mario Barán, who by that time was or had been Deputy Minister of Justice. Even that reason the feminist, Dr. Sabas Pretel de la Vega, and the one who was most chosen to win it to be appointed by the Supreme Court of Justice Attorney General of the Nation was Mr Jorge Pretel. But this situation changed as different people and self- defense commanders were touched to tip that balance and to elect Mr Mari Guarán as Attorney General. Why I had designed it. He had been the author of the law nine thousand seven five out of two thousand five and could better implement it. Moreover, the reason was that it was supposedly a request made directly by the President of the Republic of u i e you received that as a reason from the President of the Republic and from the same hon of that moment. I told you that if you received this as a reason from the President of the Republic and the Minister of the Interior at

23:18 that time, correct he too would like to ask you about the participation of Belardo de las Priellas in this and, in general, his relationship with the lawyer of the Arch of Fieras. Well, Abelardo is a friend known from young logic, I am older he Abelardo is very friend, a very deep, very big relationship with Doctor Mario Huaran for that time, since before he was a pisco, when he was Attorney General, they were close friends. They had great ancestry over each other. And that' s basically what I know about Abelardo. He was with Fipaz in the Santa federalito area with several universities in the country, with several students from those universities. When this process of negotiation with the Government of President Oribe was taking place, this Fipaz foundation, to which I belonged at the time of the art of the pieces, I am telling you, because he was not a well- known lawyer, but rather they knew him there because he had been the singer of Ballenato Iván Villazón' s group. This Pipaz foundation appears to be the beneficiary of contributions from a common fund of the paramilitary chiefs, which was led by Jairo Andrés Sangarita, Commander Andrés, and which, among other things, financed his trip

24:48 to Bogotá to speak in Congress. You know how that FIFAZ Foundation funding worked, from which the Art of the pieces lawyer stood apart. I don' t know how FIPAZ worked at the time, because Ernesto Báez, Commander Ernesto Baez, handled it. Yes, all the commanders made a contribution to the management of the realito zone when we started these negotiations with the Durini government, and those resources were handled by Commander Andrés. But I don' t know exactly how Fipadas worked and the resources that got there good July. Please, you never just asked a person who knows this hidden piece of Colombian history as Salvator and Mancuso. But please, I would like you also to have the opportunity to speak to him, for Daniel is very generous. Thank you very much, be man Cussio. Good morning. I' d like to go to an episode that would be good to illustrate how you lived it. It turns out that you were in a process of justice and peace, that you were all together in real life, and one morning President Uribe made the decision to extradite you because information that reached President Uribe, president of the time,

26:22 indicated that you continued to commit crimes according to the information that came to him, and that is why I extradite you. And it was a surprise to all of you. Tell us, please, how was that moment, Julio Güero Days. I love to say hello. Well, I' m going to contextualize it a little bit about it. It was not a real Santa Fede, we were already in justice and peace demobilized, we were in Itawi prison, some others in Barranquilla, others in Bogotá. And by that time PresidentÁlvaro Uribe had been asked to sign the agreements, to endorse the agreements that had actually been made between the self- defence forces and the national government.

27:18 In fact, Vicente Castaño had sent him reason, because the Commissioner of Peace sent him a reason. Vincent is told to surrender that, please, he helped in the demobilization, but that he did not have a good presentation that he was still in illegality. When we had all given ourselves up. Vicente told him the problem is that the government has complied, as it has been failing in all the negotiations that have been advanced throughout history and that is why many groups, both guerrillas and self- defense groups, have been rearmed. If you undertake to sign the agreements that we advance in the negotiation of realites and we do so before international guarantors and the Catholic Church, I surrender immediately. Let' s go get those grand. We bring him in, we get to a place where I tell you, we meet, we sign him, and I' m going with you in detention wherever you want.

28:17 But if the agreements are not signed, I will not surrender, because you are failing us and I will not submit to a breach. If that' s the breakfast you expect for lunch. That' s when Mr Self- commissioned with the national government, they organized the death of Vicente Castal and extradited us to the others. In that way, when we were touching truths to prevent us from rebuilding those truths, because let us remember that one of the raalito agreements was that each of the commanders would concentrate on some agricultural penal colonies with whom our subordinate men and women had been, in order to enter to rebuild these truths. But when we began to rebuild the truths, we began to move the former commanders and the demobilized self- defenses from prison to prison so that we would not find them and tell those truths. When we begin to talk about all these truths, which involves cousins President Turibe, his Praetorian circle and they begin to stop this pile of congressmen immediately we are straddling.

29:41 I am sending President Uribe a letter, a right of petition, and I ask him why he treated me, what agreement I broke, what crimes I committed and he answered my right of petition. I have copies. I will bring it to you with my lawyer, who says that he did not translate me because I had failed to comply with the agreements we reached with the Government at the negotiating table or because I would have kept on delining that the month traded with a discretionary action by him as the clearest President, does not sing a rooster on this subject. That is to say, we were extradited to silence ourselves and to violate the agreements that were advanced with us in the self - defenses Sir Mancos. You just said something of the greatest gravity is that we believed that the death of Vicente Castaño was an internal fight of groups outside the law. I understood you very well You told us that Vicente Castaño was killed by a government conspiracy led by Commissioner Restrepo Correct. This is a terrible situation where there is a conspiracy by the government itself to assassinate Vicente Castaño.

31:04 And the tragedy of this is that this situation of lack of legal certainty, of justice, of signing the non- compliance agreements, continues to be repeated. How is it possible that, in my particular case, for example, that it is a nefarious message that is sent to all these armed actors of the current conflict, they are called course that has been fulfilled, they do not comply with it and that neither of the two transitional justice systems fulfills. I have the right to freedom in both. Both were asked to appoint me peace manager and not to appoint me. The shortcomings of the resolution that appointed me from the peace manager and did not appoint me were remedied. What' s going to happen to them. What is the message that is being sent to you. But, gentlemen, you are demobilizing and you are going to be able to go to jail. We will fail you and the agreements will never be brought forward as they have been agreed in that, Mr Mancuso.

32:02 But, but I' m still in line with the July question. Let ' s go to the time and place of that conspiracy Who specifically gives you the order to murder Vicente Castaño? When and where to discuss details of this alleged government conspiracy. Then to kill Castaño. I get a fat letter from Pepe who went here. He was kidnapped and tied up by the family to give up Vicente Castaño and told me that he was tied to his wife, to his sons, to his parents, to his daughters and through him they arrived where another person who was the only one who could enter a car to where Vicente Castaño was, on a farm near the Ciénaga de Apel. They went in there and when Vincent saw other cars coming in, he shot him.

33:10 Those who went there were members of the Tijin, other demobilized members of self- defence who were acting on the request of the national government made by Commissioner Luis Carlos Restrepo and that is when Vicente dies, say that he himself shot himself in the head, in a bathroom, when he felt that he had no escape from the action of this joint group among members of the police and mobilized, Mr Esa, Mr Mancuso, and let us go to the supposed responsibility of Luis Carlos Restrepo, because, because that is a very serious point. It' s the mark of a homicide. What evidence, what details do you have that it was Mr Resta Po who gave the order for the murder of Vicente Castaño, what evidence there is or what details there are of that so- called order. I have the letter that Gordo Pepe gave me for that time, with the remarks he made about this situation, Mr Mancuso, the order of this conspiracy that you mention starts from Luis Carlos restrepo, or you have information that higher level officials within the government used only common restrepo emissary. Well, from now on I don' t know anything more

34:43 about those who were most involved in the subject. CE that came to me in a letter of fist and letter from Gordo Pepe Manuscript, where it explains to me the events that happened, the participation that he had linked in these actions and the points that he makes to the responsible of the s s s. S. Yes, Mr Mancuso, I want to ask you about an episode with the former Foreign Minister, Alvaro Leiva, because at the time, that is, last year, in November, he stabbed the heb saying that he was preventing and that it was ushering in the story of the truth and putting a gag and a bandage on the story, condemning Colombia would Latin of the lie. And he said this because a hearing was suspended in which Carlos Mario Jiménez, alias Macaco, was to be heard, and he has been making those efforts so that he can enter the HEAP and have been heard.

35:31 And I want to ask you if you agree with that acceptance of Macaco before the HEAP and to speak there in that court. Of course I agree with the acceptance of a former Commander like Carlos Mario Jiméneas, to whom Macaco tells, because he is, according to the commander who had a lot of power in self- defense, had a lot of influence on self- defense. It is committed at this time to making progress in helping to build peace. He is one of the commanders, like many of the others we are working on, because these situations of barbarism and tragedy are no longer repeated. He ' s got a lot of knowledge, he' s got a lot to contribute. He is a person who I hope will be received, just like other commanders like HH, like Mr Ramón Mojana, like the Angulos who took responsibility for the groups that operated in the Aroe, in Ituango Farm. They are people who would contribute enormously and I tell you why. Because we cannot fragment the truth into three systems of justice, ordinary justice, justice and peace, the GEP because that fragmentation of justice does not mean that the responsibility for these acts goes unpunished, that the ends cannot be tied in order to reach

37:04 the conclusions that it requires to reach a court of law and this situation becomes something unending. This issue of the closing court is very important for us to talk about, especially that hopefully one of these transitional justices, the GE, for example, becomes that closing court. Justice and peace has not been and will not. We have been at this time eighteen years and we have not finished and it is estimated that, in my case, they will take, according to research and calculations, what the mappoea do fifty more years. Who keeps that justice system alive. It' s me if I get out of that justice and peace system it' s gonna collapse. And it' s going to collapse because it' s precisely who keeps him alive with all these situations that I' ve been. Me. I have seen that in the Nuremberg Tribune, where seventy- five eighty million deaths were judged in the Second World War between civilians and the military. They took ten times in the International Military Tribunal of the Far East, where the Japanese were tried, they took two and a half years. In the Italian courts and international courts that tried the Italians took less than two years. So, it is not possible that this Court of Justice has taken eighteen years when it was clad for eight years and that we still have to wait fifty more years to finish, that is,

38:38 we will all be alive there what kind of justice and messages are being sent to the victims, to the postulates to the world. I am impossible to move forward with those issues in that way. I was talking about Vicente Castaño' s death right now. I want to ask you about one of the great mysteries and myths around the subject of paramilitarism, the death of Carlos Castaño. What is the truth for you the death of Carlos cast The death of Carlos Castaño is a situation that arose in the self- defenses. Carlos Castaño was psychologically decomposed, he had tremendous problems with his personality. In the end, he had some problems that also afflicted him, of feelings of enormous guilt for his newborn daughter, who suffered from a disease that the translation is the cat' s mauling and at some point decided that he would end the life of the Dient. Castaño felt that Vicente was basically the maximum commander of self- defense, that he was a political figure within self- defense, but that the royal command had him vice and made him a vicious attack.

40:02 Realizing this situation, he makes the decision to organize a group of self- defenses that confronted Carlos Castaño and murdered him. Mr Mancuso has speculated a lot about his closeness or bond with whoever was Attorney General of the Nation, Luis Camilo Osorio. How close he was how much he served to protect or defend the interests of people close to paramilitarism when he was in the head of the prosecution. Well, Mr Amilo Sorio was the Attorney General of the Nation.

40:50 I didn' t really have a relationship with D A Osorio. I know our congressmen had a very close relationship with him. But basically the importance of all these things that do not repeat the challenge of peace. It is very important that all these issues should not continue to be repeated, that we be able to make progress in building peace, that we be allowed to make progress in building peace, that the State fulfil its commitments and that justice also fulfil its commitments to those we fulfil. There are some very important issues at present that I would like to address and have to do with the issue of agrarian reform. The Government is currently buying the land, not dispossessing it and buying it at commercial prices. That is to say, it seems very good, because it is a historic debt that we have this confrontation that occurred first with the violence of my partisan, generated a great displacement in the beginning. Then the guerrilla violence also took off and there was a great displacement for that moment.

42:01 And then, when the self- defenses arrived, there was also huge displacement, spoils, looting and many people came back and took advantage of that moment and bought land at the price of sick chicken. These situations today, I believe, when you profit from the violence of war, you are left with an indirect debt to the country. Moreover, it is an action that could compensate the situations that arose, with thousands of peasants and people who were forced to move to those belts of misery in the cities and who have opportunities.

42:51 Colombia, one of the most unequal countries in the world, this land that the government is buying. I would invite all these people, those who have had the land in a traditional way for many years and those who acquired the land in this way when the armed conflict, when these displacements that plague that land to the Government to contribute to peace, to agrarian reform, so that half of the land they sell uses those money to generate intensive productions, because they are in extensive productions. And so the government buys the land it gives to peasants who were displaced from their hours to arm intensive productive projects in that area. That way we redistribute wealth. That way we create peace.

43:38 And that' s a strong message. I am sending a message to the President just a few days ago, and I would like to repeat it again by taking advantage of the fact that I am here at the hearing, at this stage, in this interview with you men, we want to support him in this process. I want to tell you that this big reform, which is being proposed, I join her, I agree with her and we want to help on that issue that is going to bring huge successes to the country and that is one of the fundamental steps towards achieving peace in this country.

44:24 Mr Loncuse, you could be in Italy today, you could be in the United States today, however, in this interview and you said that you have come back because you want to make up for the mistakes you have made and want to make amends and you want to put your face to the victims. And now you' re messing with the most sensitive issue I owe, paramilitarism. Self- defense displaced a lot of people and took a lot of land. If you are in that tonic being mancursor, you should not send a signal as an example, for I specifically refer to your lands in Highlands and Hidden Ports. Today there were probably the names of other people or their relatives, but you also benefited from those lands. Why don' t you return them. Julio, I returned all the lands and properties that were in my possession that I acquired during the entire armed conflict, even those that I legally bought before the conflict. All of them were handed over to repair in fact, the sum of the total land that I delivered far exceeded the amount of land that had been handed over by all rebel groups that had entered into negotiations with the Government. That' s the size of the repair. About five hundred properties I handed over to the Government for repair, in fact to be able to hand it over. By that time let us remember that whoever received the goods was social action and did not want to receive the goods. And

45:58 I didn' t want to get the goods. Then I realize to have an excuse for the stage that was given later. I even had to go to the Supreme Court of Justice to force the national government, through social action, to receive my property. At that point I had to go begging. Government gentlemen. Please, please, receive me the amazing Goods that this has happened. Mr Mancuso, you' re recognized, I' m sorry, I' m not listening. You have recognized that the evil you did is immense and that precisely what you are doing does so to prevent it from happening again. I would like to refer to your presence in the Colombian Congress, where you said you controlled more than thirty percent of the Colombian Parliament. And for me that statement is the most serious fact that Colombian institutions have had after April 9. Today you recognize that this presence of paramilitarism in Congress was a scandal that did much harm. Doctor Casas, what a joy to greet you

47:32 in itself is faith in a scandalous situation, of course, and that is what we have to avoid. Doctor home. What situations like these keep repeating themselves. Look These armed actors have given clear signs that they have a real will to advance peace processes. These processes need to move forward. Seventy or seventy- five percent of the violence and rearmament of the country comes from non - rebels. Negotiations have been prioritized with the ln that always promises in all its negotiations, but never fulfils. Let' s hope that in this one comes to a happy end and there are the rearmed ones on the side.

48:13 If these people of the rebels demobilize, what will happen. The same thing is going to happen during all the negotiations that have advanced from the war of the thousand days until today in the hands of who left those territories that were given to the State in the hands of the State not rearmed again. What is going to happen to those territories will be taken by these armed non- rebel actors, who represent seventy- seven percent of the country' s vilification. We have to prioritize them. We need to speed up these negotiations so that that control they continue to have, which is territorial control and that implies political control, can tilt the political balance in favor of or against whomever they want, of the interests they have. They have economic control, legal economies, illegal economies, social control and even huge descent in the populations of the area, which many of them would like to be of these young people.

49:15 Fixed the monkey today mancuso and that we have to avoid that it keeps repeating, that they continue to support people who arrive in the Congress of the Republic. That can' t happen. That is why it is so important that the agreements that we have reached with the Government and that those transitional justice systems that exist for the advancement and transition of war, peace be fulfilled. It is not possible that they will not be fulfilled. What a message they sent you. I have the right to freedom. They don' t give me the freedom, I have the right to exercise the stories. Why I am prevented from exercising those genes what is the message that is sent to all of them. So, if doctor home that situation that came up was embarrassing and we have to stop it from happening anymore. Doctor. If you, just a few moments ago to a question by John Paul, speak on the subject of Juan Camilo, I retrepo. I want to ask you about someone specific.

50:21 Ana María Flores, the one known as the Batichica of Cúcuta. Don Camilo sol Sorry, Luis Camilo Osorio, Luis Camilo Sorio Sorry, Luis Camilo Sorio? Yes, Luis Camilo Sorio, who was the question of Juan Pablo and Ana María Flores, the one known as the Batichica, and what relationship that whole story has to something that you mentioned, which is really in this horror story, is another chapter of horror, which are the crematory furnaces of Cucuta. What can you tell us about Ana María Flores your relationship with Luis Camilo Sorio and that story of the burning furnaces in Cucuta. Well, this lady prosecutor who was in Cúcuta beats her. Indeed, it was related to self- defense. In fact, the commanders of self- defense. Many of them slept there. The commander of Gato had a sentimental relationship with her, one of the self- defense commanders, and it was a tragic situation that arose. Repeat. These are things that don' t have to be repeated anymore and presented. We have to stop them from being. But look what you get with the crematory ovens. There was a time when the statistics of people killed during the armed conflict rose and that made the military, army police, give the same figelía, call them to order, draw their attention.

51:55 Then they asked for what. They said don' t leave me people lying in the territories under my responsibility. They said it' s not military. That is why Commander Carlos Castaño, at one point called us a meeting and asked us for men, the military are asking us not to leave the people who are discharged or murdered during the armed conflict in their areas. I say and then where these people will be left If there is, unfortunately, at that historic moment, a justification for acting militarily against a person because you have to disappear to avoid two problems with the military. It was the response of Commander Carlos Castaño. Then they started using this type of oven, but they also started throwing them in the neighboring country, in Venezuela. I' ve been advancing from before my stories and now with the stories of postponing the search unit for people reported missing and with the hed I' ve been advancing these issues of searching for people, all for missing and we' re going through several demobilized. Many of them were expelled from this transitional justice law.

53:10 Many of them were not fulfilled, they were not even received from the beginning in this transitional justice and with them we have managed to locate about a thousand missing persons in the region of Catatumbo and a thousand more missing persons victims of the armed conflict, our victims within the armed conflict in the area of Uraba and Córdoba. It is very important that these tasks be further advanced. But this can only be achieved if we are free See that we have not been able to move forward to recover all these bodies, because we have not been able to go to the areas, to locate the places where they are.

53:53 And this is a huge humanitarian effort, a huge commitment to the end of that mourning, I saw from among the families of the victims that we caused so much pain and suffering from this humanitarian tragedy that the conflict in Colombia meant. Yes, Mr Salvatore Mancuso, a moment ago, responding to Daniel Coronel ' s questions, you spoke of that closeness and contact that they had at the time with Pedro Juan Moreno, at a time when this was Secretary of Government of the governorship ofÁlvaro urie Vls in Antioqua, but then, when Álvaro Uribe that elected President in the first years of his government, they continued together. You continued to maintain contact with Pedro Juan Moreno during the presidency of Alvaro Uribe, he continued to carry and bring messages or coordinate with you.

55:00 See, I' m feeling like I' m in a real one- of- a- kind hearing before the Chief. I think the subject of Pedro Juan and Uribe is a good one. Of course, we had a relationship with Pedro Juan all along until he had that tragic death in that helicopter accident, so we always had a very good relationship with him. Mr Mancurso, I' m going to ask you about two names related to a department where you also had a lot of influence, the Suscrip Department. What did you have to do with the University of Sucre, with Jaira Acuña, with Emil C López, known as La Gata. Well Yaira Cuña had certain relationships with self- defense. I didn' t handle that subject. It was run by the chain and handled by the other commanders who were in the area and with the cat we had a relationship when the self- defense groups declared it a military objective, especially in this zone of block heroes of the mountains of Mary, because they did not want to pay the war taxation that was charged to them. She was declared a military target. She searched for Commander

56:30 Carlos lus Castaño through Monsignor Garcia, the Monsignor of Uraba and arrived through a Magangue priest and Commander Carlos Castaño told her to look at that area of mancurrence and asked me to attend to her. And indeed, I attended her and prevented her from being murdered at that time, and she promised to provide her with self- defense through social works that would advance, not direct resources that would deliver self- defense. Speaking of resources, we saw the Chiquita Brand scandal first confirmed by the US authorities in Colombia. Nothing could have happened with Chiquita Brand. Now it has already been learned of Daniel' s ruling in the Colonial report the previous Friday and that he opens a gap that may break Chiquita Brand for the compensation. When you are going to hand over the list of the other companies that contributed to the tragedy of self- defense, displacement, death, the disappearance of peasants, those who did not want to move, give up their lands, what happened to them besides Chiquita Brand, when you are going to tell us what other businessmen had commercial relations July, the great tragedy of justice and peace and having three justice systems in Colombia for the

58:07 same conflict, For a single conflict, is that one tells the truths. For example, we, from the outset, in my particular case, are asking the taxation of justice and Pa to create the pattern of macro criminality, state collusion and state relations with self- defense. He' s never wanted to create it, and I' ve asked for it on countless occasions. Why don' t you believe it. That is precisely why they fragment justice and truth in order to prevent those responsible for the State, representatives of the State, from having to assume responsibility for State crimes that we advance together with the institutions of the Espace, we have given to the transitional justice of Colombia all the names of the business enterprises that have had links and relations with the self- defenses, and that pattern of macro criminality has not been created either.

59:20 Those investigations have not reached a happy port. That is why the fragmentation of the truth in different justices is the worst thing that can happen to the country, because there were no three armed conflicts here. There was only one armed conflict with different actors here. That is why truth is required in a single system of transitional justice and a system of closure of transitional justice, because if not all the truths we have told, which we have already expressed, will happen what you are saying and when you will tell those truths and what will happen to those truths are already told justice. Let us ask them what they have done with these truths, why they have not advanced, why they have not created these patterns of macrocneminerality, why they do not fulfill their proper function and why they fail to fulfill us. To those of us who have fulfilled what kind of message we are sending the rearmed, that they remain at war, that they do not demobilize, that they will fail as they have always been failing. That is the message that is being sent to those boys, to those armed men and women out there who continue to generate victims, as Alfonso Cano once said, who was the commander of the face. Within how many thousands more dead we will be able to understand that it is not the way to solve these armed conflicts that the country is experiencing, but they

1:00:52 are taking shape. If all the businessmen who lived with you, the state forces, the military and police officers who were on your payroll, all that information is in a drawer, somewhere in that process that has had the truth that you surrendered. In that same drawer, there are also the tests, or we are only with your word to see. On many occasions there was evidence, but let us remember that these were illegal organizations. You, when you are inside an illegal organization and you had never crossed your mind, you had to go through a justice system where you were going to have to go tell truths and give evidence. You never leave evidence sporadically that gave one or another proof that we had kept, but not saved because we are going to use it within transitional justice processes, but because fortunately they were kept there within these processes. When you graz situations, you don' t go to a notary with an illegal actor and sign an agreement. They are all agreements that are worded July and in this way were advanced. Now what we do have are the witnesses, the contexts, the situations, how they occurred and, indeed, that the facts were presented. I have a concern before Daniel returns

1:02:31 to his interview that has generously allowed him to share with his colleagues here at the LEW. It' s the first time we' ve participated in a colonel' s report, and that speaks of his not only professionalism, but his generosity. As Mr Selvan, the last concern I have before going back to Daniel is to pick up the first thing that you said your regret, after as Kano said, how many deaths we see ourselves in, after all those dead and you want to face compensation to all those victims. You put your head on the pillow and you sleep, sleep calmly, close your eyes and sleep easy. Julio. At first, the situation was very complex.

1:03:31 I felt and still felt that great responsibility on my shoulders, that feeling of guilt. But peace is an act of daily construction. When I began to see to listen, to feel a minimal part of that immense pain and damage and suffering that we caused to the victims, I cried in the audience, I cried in the nights I didn' t sleep well. The souls, as we say, visited me and I had to do a huge job and it was to start by asking them for forgiveness. But before that, forgive myself, commit myself, with my conscience, with the victims, with the country, with my family, that this could not continue to happen, to work for the rest of my life, to dismantle those factors of violence, a situation that affects one deeply, very deeply. It' s a situation that leads you to commit for the rest of your life because we can' t return human lives. We cannot repair the irreparable, but we can contribute from our commitment, from our will, to the continuation of this tragedy in

1:05:01 the country. It is a situation that we must begin by fulfilling and fulfilling the institutions of the State for fulfilling restorative justice. If we have the right to freedom, if they are being asked by the Government through a resolution that has named me, it is a hector of peace, to give me freedom, why they do not. There is a politicization of justice in this case, there is a manipulation of justice to prevent peace from being built. They are basically turning from this justice into enemies of peace, and that we have to avoid. The other thing I would like to take advantage of, as we are closing this interview to send a discussion to the President of the Republic and it is I who have decided to return to the country. For all this stuff I just told you. I would like to invite you to prioritize that agenda of the past with those non- rebels who dynamize that agenda and who can move forward, who, please, will achieve this peace, who will not desist from it, nor will we and all those who have that will and that commitment to move forward. I am sure that many of our fellow former commanders have the same will to move forward, to support this process of pacification of the country and so that these facts do not continue to be

1:06:35 repeated. Daniel' s guest is. Thank you so much, Julio. Thank you so much, Julio. I would like to ask Mr Mancuso several things before I fire him. Ecopetrol is the main company in Colombia. Ecopetrol belongs to more than eighty percent of Colombians, to all taxpayers, and it turns out that you have said that with funds from Copetrol the paramilitaries were also financed, that Copetrol' s directives at some time facilitated that money from the country' s main company would come to fund these criminal activities of self- defense groups. What can you tell us about that, Mr Mancuso to see Ecopetrol indeed, had a responsibility in the funding that we had the self- defenses at that time. Different types of hydrocarbons, gasolines, EPM, etc pass through the polyduct, and they gave us the schedule in which they were to be transported. This one so they were going to move this whole series of hydrocarbons at the hours they were injecting through the polyduct, and they had

1:08:08 some sensors, plus he let them know from which sectors the hydrocarbons were being extracted. We were allowed to extract, we used the listings, we knew what kind of fuel he was mobilizing at the time. And besides that, there were dyes, for example, for the gasoline that Eco petróle delivered to us so that they could be legally sold to service stations. So, Eco Petrol had a responsibility to fund self- defense. That' s true, Daniel, how high was the level of decision within Ecopetrol about this collaboration with self- defense groups? We' re talking about engineers or guards in the areas where the polyduct was passing. Or was it higher that I came to this collaboration? I' m sorry I didn' t understand him and they ' re repeating me. Yeah. I was asking you, Mr Mancuso, if Copetrol' s senior management was aware of this collaboration of the country' s main company with the criminal operations of the so- called self- defenses.

1:09:24 I don' t know. You have also insistently mentioned the participation of former Vice President Francisco Santos Calderón in your ongoing work or the suggestion for the launch of the capital block of self- defense. He has denied it for years and it is a process that justice has not yet resolved. What does that tell us, what meetings you personally had with Pacho Santos and what was discussed in that regard? C was a person who led to self- defense. Let us remember the historical context for that moment, so that we can understand it. The first time the capital city. Bogotá was practically besieged by the guerrillas. One could not leave outside the leaks of Bogotá and at that moment the powerful who live in this great city felt the rigor of the real threat posed by guerrillas. At that time they asked us to self- defense Panchito faith and met with Commander Carlos Castaño, with me to create a block of self- defenses up to the name. Capital was proposed to prevent the guerrillas from keeping them practically under siege as they were at the time and from

1:10:59 taking them in this city. We prevented the guerrillas from taking power by arms definitively in the war, but we all lost in a terrible situation that cannot continue to be repeated. Pachito Santos was then in the United States as ambassador and in my particular case, for example, when the United States asked me if I had a different citizenship and if I would go to a different country, I said look yes. Right now I am in justice and peace, transitional justice. I have the right to the truth, to freedom. They have not fulfilled me and I have fears that without fulfillment it will be to take me to a prison in Colombia and within that prison to allow me to be protected, then I would prefer to go to Italy. The United States issues a final removal order. This is called the final removal order and designates Italy as the country of removal. Everything was ready. They had three months to send me to Italy. It' s been four months. After three months. They cannot reverse that final removal order and Ambassador Pachito Santos, at that time a pact with President Trump' s government that the final removal order from Italy to Colombia would be changed and agreed that Colombia would deliver the vote

1:12:30 and help with the lobby for the election of the president of the BEAT of the Inter- American Development Bank, which has traditionally been Latin American, and appoint an American director. In that management. There was enormous political pressure, and yet, despite all these things, I was forced to accept the international protection of the United Nations against torture and was in that process. I was going to go there, or I was going to Italy, or I was going to stay in Colombia. I even told the Government, to the extent that they gave me the necessary guarantees. If I was sent to Italy, I would go back to Colombia and I did it Note that even with all these situations, when the President appoints me as peace manager, I decide to honor that appointment and decide to honour the moral commitment I have to the victims and I have returned. I have returned to work for peace, for reconciliation.

1:13:32 I want to do this, but it is also important that I am honoured. If we have complied, we must comply. Transitional justice has to fulfill and both have the power to give me freedom because I have fulfilled. I don' t owe them one day. And both have the position of lifting the measures of assurance on this issue particularly in all these years, you have received the request to change your version on the subject of Francisco Santos and the conformation of the capital block of the self- defenses. Someone has brought you a reason or has spontaneously told you why you are reconsidering these statements.

1:14:16 Look all these years and when I was in Itawi, sometimes on weekends people who you didn' t know and who supposedly came to visit other inmates would come and pee around and they would come to the cell and they would come and say they would send you to say that please don' t talk about one, don' t talk about the other, and at some point they told me not to talk about those issues, that it was not convenient for the Government, for the country, for my family, for me, that is, they were clear threats, but I have always followed who committed. I' ve never been people of changing versions. What I' m saying is the truth and that' s it. Who was the emissary of those threats. Many justice knows who they are. I' ve told them who ' s been good. I would like to ask you one last question, Mr Mancuso, the FARK committed a terrible attack in Bogotá, the attack on the El Nogal club, where they killed 36 people with a bomb. A terrible massacre that Colombians keep in their memory. Within the justifications that nothing makes this fact of blood justifiable. But among the justifications that were intended to invoke the FART was that you had visited or that you had ever stayed at the

1:15:50 El Nogal club. I want to ask you if that' s true, if it ever happened that you entered or stayed at the club, well, I was never at the club that the walnut. I don' t actually know him. I haven' t been there. That justification given by the fark that I was there and no other justification exists for putting a bomb on it and for being a terrorist attack on any social club in Colombia or in the world. Those are atrocious facts that were committed in the conflict and they will have to clarify it and it would definitely be important for us to make peace. Daniel, I, unfortunately, have a legal process ab at eight thirty I have videoconferences. I have to disconnect. I thank all of you, you, Julia, Doctor Casas, the whole Bureau, all the presidents, all the listeners and followers of you for this interview and always to order with you for what you are needing and especially for the country and the victims, so that we can reconsider it is very important that we all make peace people in our country. That is a daily construction and we have to do it, because many thanks to Salvatore Mancuso excereso ara militar, now peace manager