Matt: Y'all, I'm super pumped for this. Like y'all, don't even know. We have a superstar on our podcast right now that has graced us with the presence.

And, her name is grace. I was going to say 

Grace: something. Oh, it's me. Yeah. Well I'm grace and my artist's name is similar and I put out an EAP called preacher's kid, and that's why I'm here. That's how we became friends. 

Matt: We're friends. Like we instantly, 

Grace: we did though. I mean, to be fair, like we, we. I've been recording.

We haven't been recording for a little bit, but we are, haven't been talking as though we are friends. So I think it's fair to say that we are. 

Matt: Am I your only gay friends? I'd be 

no. I have, quite a bit of [00:04:00] people that are within the LGBTQ community. And I love them very much. Well, I would imagine 

Grace: if you're operating a memes for Jesus account, that many of us would find you because so many of us have gone through the gauntlet of, uh, people being mean for Jesus, rather not for Jesus.

Hey. Oh, wow. Has anyone done that before? 

Matt: No, that's the first that I've heard, at least Jesus, it's funny. 'cause like, we'll get comments that are like like, or users. 

Grace: Has anyone like pointed to like a scripture being like, it is clear that a mean goes, go with against the Lord. Like you really have to extrapolate because come on 

Matt: every day, this is literally every day of our life. Like we'll put a meme that is the most innocuous harmless meme, and people will be like, oh, that's it.

This place is a progressive., all for Satan and like, it's we hear it [00:05:00] all. And like, I think me, us meme pages that are Christian, we know why people hate Christians. Like we get it, we know Christians because we'll come at you. Yeah. W For those of you who aren't aware, those of you, losers, who don't know grace Baldrige you fools. If 

Grace: you're listening to Christian queer folk music have dairy, you're just simply ignorant to the queer Christian folk. It's been blowing up on only Spotify because Christian radio will not acknowledge. 

Matt: I can't breathe.

Oh. Like, honestly, even me announcing to like, just some of our followers that I was going to interview you. Backlash like stupid picture. And I was like, why? Like that, some of the dumb stuff that I've encountered, just, just by referencing you it's like, well, what, what is she saying? Cause I don't even want to give her the viewership or the, the monetization support.

I'm like, you can't even listen to stuff. You disagree. [00:06:00] Well also 

Grace: don't feel bad because Spotify gives me a penny or something like that. So you're really not supporting me that much. And to that extent every time, and this is true. This is a fact for any of your listeners that are paying attention.

Anytime someone tells me to repent, Spotify has been counting that as a stream. So like, That's the thing. So if you tweet at me to repent, that's an automatic stream for breachers. And let me just say those pennies, I'm about to make a nickel real soon. I'm really excited for that. We've got a 

Matt: gumball. Well, I mean, okay.

So what I'm about to do actually is probably gonna offend even more people. So, I mean, how do you prefer to be, um, what's your preferred pronoun? 

Grace: I mean, I honestly go by all pronouns, but people usually use she her or they them, but I'm one of those sort of like pronoun and different people where I think.

Evolved past the needs for pronouns. I don't really know. I think I've always occupied like a tomboy space and I know that people read that differently and like, there've [00:07:00] been times that like TSA specifically, or now that we have masks, I'm six feet tall and someone will be like, hello, sir. Um, I'm like, okay, that's fine.

Like, I don't, I'm not gonna be like, like, I just don't want to get really doesn't I, but that's me personally. Like these are truly just like personal preferences. I know that I occupy like a gender neutral space and however people feel inspired to address me. I'm just happy that you're talking to me at all.

So it 

Matt: all works. Yeah. Cause that's one thing that like some Christians aren't even willing to ask that and I wanted to make sure I'm not offending you. Like with every sentence that I wrote. 

Grace: So don't worry. It would be hard. I mean, that's the other thing with, like, I think with queer Christians or people who have been hurt by the church, so many of us have just built up such a thick skin, not all of us, this isn't a rule, but for me, and for many people of a similar experience, I it's not as though like, oh my gosh, I'm so offended.

It's rather than, I'm just not going to engage with certain things anymore because it's not [00:08:00] healthy for me. And also like when people are spewing so much hate or just like blocks of like Bible verses that they think I have never heard before. Oh my gosh. I've never considered the six clobber verses as though I haven't studied them in depth on my own.

I want to like remove myself for you. That's an unhealthy space for you to be at you're coming at a stranger on the internet that you don't know. And you're sort of hurling these judgements at me on your perceived understanding of how I understand the Bible. And I want to suppose to be healthy. So I'm probably right.

Mute you for me. And if you keep, and if I keep seeing things, I'm probably going to block you, but I'm doing that for you. Don't spend your day doing this, their loved ones, people who care about you, you can focus on your energies there. And I think if we are looking at the example of Christ would obviously it means for Jesus is a great example.

We don't know specifically how he would feel about the internet, but I think we can discern that Jesus would be like check in with people [00:09:00] you care about. I am not in need of your judgment. So let me, let me help you out. Go back to your life and you can, and listen to Christian music. You like it's, you don't have to like my music.

I'm not asking, I'm not asking every Christian to enjoy my music. I'm just saying that I'm writing from a different theological perspective and I'm valid and doing that. You don't get to have just a, you don't get to gatekeep who is allowed to believe. And your God. 

Matt: So yeah, that was my thesis statement.

No, I think a lot of people forget you're Episcopalian, correct? 

Grace: Yeah. I, I, my dad's a priest, so I was raised in the Episcopal church. So a very little. Robes, all that stuff, but also very affirming and very progressive in a lot of ways too. 

Matt: Yeah. A lot of people forget that are affirming and they do believe in many of the foundational tenants of Christianity.

But like, obviously they've been ostracized by. The majority of, contemporary or concerned that I think, 

Grace: especially [00:10:00] in evangelical circles, we're just not considered Christians. 

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and full disclosure, like I am not affirming, but I. Pro people. I love people. I love humans. I, you know, Jesus loves humans and, I'm just glad that you want to be a Christian.

You know what I mean? I've even though we may disagree on certain things, I'm so happy that you would call yourself a Christian and pursue the same God that I'm pursuing. And I think that if. Would focus more on how and where we can reconcile that we wouldn't have the toxicity that we see nowadays. 

Grace: I think there's sort of a humility. Acknowledging that you don't have all the answers. So I think that so many people will sort of come at me or come at people who they disagree with theologically and be like, well, the Bible is, God is clear. This is clear. This is clear. This is clear.

And there's no space [00:11:00] for Divine mystery in the sense. And I, and I think that, like how sort of prideful would it be to assume that we have all the answers? And I think that, and again, like people always will point to like, well, we do, because it's a right here, like in the red letters here it is. And I acknowledge that except

our disagreements are not ignorance. It's rather more an interpretation and context. And I think that that's something I've poured over into like translations and the historical, background of scripture and like looking at different, scholarship on how we got to these translations, especially the, the 300 or so plus English ones, Bible wasn't written in English.

And I think you have. Allow that space. And so sometimes when people are just sort of throwing verses at you it's as though like no, I, I understand the mind of God and who are we as little tiny potato humans to like, understand the mind of God. I'm never going. Cause I'm never going [00:12:00] to do that for anyone else's life.

Far be it for me, I'm really like, I, like, I never want to understand the boldness of going to a strangers page on the internet and quote unquote, like rebuking them. I never hopefully will ever face that sort of responsibility. And it's strange that certain people feel so comfortable assuming that role.

Matt: Yeah. It's and okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna yell at some guys like, so John Piper. He is a very notable and usually charitable Christian voice in Christianity. And he says he has no problem calling somebody by a name that's different than their biological sex. But he won't. He says, if a man, a biological man as asking me to call, him a woman, he will refuse to do that because he considers that lying.

So like where. I think that's stupid is because it's like, just meet the person first. You're telling me you won't give [00:13:00] the person the humanity enough to just oblige, you know, whether you agree or disagree, just, address them as they prefer to be addressed. I think it's a non-issue.

That Christians have created an issue out of and where they can't even address people within the LGBTQ community. It's like, you can't even get to the point where you are from them as a human. And that is, that is utterly despicable. In my, my opinion, if you can't simply even address somebody and acknowledge them for their existence, that is, I think if we can get over that, we, I think we can start having the conversations like we're having right now, which is why you're amazing.

Cause it's like, you know, you, you say you're a Christian and you also occupy a space that a lot of people are either afraid of or unwilling to interact with the being the LGBTQ community. And so you're like this, this really cool anomaly where, you know, we can interact, I think, on both sides of the aisle.

I mean, what are your thoughts? [00:14:00] 

Grace: Well, I think there's so many more about us than the conservative Christians might. Think of, so it's one of those things, like, you just don't know what you don't know. And so you'll look around in your circle and be like, well, I don't know any queer people. Like, I don't know any LGBTQ plus people.

And clearly our church is doing things right. But what you probably aren't aware of is the people who are not being honest with you about who they are in their heart of hearts, because they do not feel safe to do so. Or perhaps they will wait until they, you know, move, to. Then feel more comfortable to truly be themselves.

I also think that like the unfortunate thing is I hope can we agree that like the brunt of harm being done to LGBTQ plus people in the United States is from Christians. Like it's from people using scripture to, straight people have certain rights and [00:15:00] certain dignities that should be afforded to all people.

Um, and. Then, what we ask is then we put the burden on those who have been marginalized to. Like be the offer, the olive branch being like, come on, like come to the table, like let's all discuss. And it, that is, that is a really difficult thing to do. I know as Christians we're always taught like, well, turn the other cheek, but there's a reason why that's there.

There's, you know, Jesus spoke a lot, but in those four books, he was real concise with the lessons that got included in there. And I think it's in either Lugar and mark, where at the end, it's like, there were hundreds of other miracles that happened and I could fill books. To like tell them all. And I just can't simply say everything.

So we have to consider that whatever was included in those gospels, Jesus was like, this was important. This is like, what I want you to know. And one of those lessons is of course, like turning the other cheek. Um, and that I think is because Jesus knew this is going to be a really hard thing for us. And I think that that's what we see [00:16:00] for LGBTQ plus people who have been hurt by the church.

For so many people it's like, I don't want to come to the table with you because you're not even ready to dignify me. Like you were speaking about your friend who doesn't want to acknowledge trans women, like why then you're asking a trans woman to then burden herself to like dignify this person who won't even acknowledge her humanity.

And that's like, that is a huge ask, you know? And I think that what's furthermore to that ass is that Christians don't even seem to acknowledge that it is. Well, they're like, well, no, come on. Like we all, we're all just meant to like, love each other and understand each other. And I'm like, cool. But there's one side here that won't even use this person's name because they think it's a lie.

So, so we're not really on equal. We're not really operating from a level playing field here because I'm saying your name I'm acknowledging who you are. LGBTQ plus Christians rarely are the ones logins. You're not a real Christian. Okay. Like [00:17:00] conservative Christians when they're getting slapped in the face, when their rights are being stripped away, rarely are we the ones being like, how dare you.

We understand that that is how their biblical literacy is informing them. It seems incredibly hateful and ignorant, but the things that are being levied against me are like, you are a double worshiper. You are a satanic, you are the antichrist, that's a different we're, we're hitting the things a little bit differently here.

And so I would like to see this conversation. And this coming together, but we, we first have to acknowledge the extent of the harm that has been done in the name of a loving creator. And I D I don't know if we can begin to like break bread and have like, this friendship is that, you know, like how you and I are hopping on zoom or whatever, unless the harm has been acknowledged because, because then you're, it's like a form of Gaslight.

Then people have to pretend that everything's cool. And we've all been in friendships with people where like, you know that like, there's, there's like an elephant in this room. We have to talk about it. And I think [00:18:00] that queer people are ready. I mean, we've been almost screaming. I think that's the reason why preacher's kid has resonated with people is because it feels like this catharsis, but I don't know that Christians will always be like, no people are doing this out of love.

People are doing this out of love. I have been heartbroken by people who have said that they were doing it because they love. That's not, you can't do that. You can't slap someone over the face and be like, I love you. I don't experience that as low as that person. That's the tough love.

Matt: Let me slap you with this. Yeah. Like 

Grace: it just, if you were to put like a physicality to the level of abuse that we've seen, then if it does become comical, it's like so much just like punching you in the face and then being like, did you, did you experience that as. Sending God's love your way. I'm like, I experienced that as you sending your fist into my face and then asking me to say thank you and to come to church with you.

No, I'm not going to 

Matt: do that. [00:19:00] What you mean? You don't lack my love rear naked choke. What are you talking about? That's what I'm doing it in love. I'm trying to, oh, wow. Yeah. It's, it's so bad. And I agree. I think I totally agree with that. If we can't even get past. Where we can talk to each other and address each other by our names.

And you know, whether we agree with the, the name, the person that we're interacting with has chosen or feels that they, that they are, I think it's a moot point. Like why even delve into what the other person has decided for their own life. When you're as, as a evangelical Christian, your objective is to love people and evangelize the love of Christ.

Where does that factor into the equation about how you need to then change the behavior outcomes of the person you're interacting with? It's it's I think that is so toxic and harmful. Like you said, we, we have to address the fact that we are, we have been [00:20:00] harmful to the people with our interactions online and in person.

And I watched, um, I'm not sure which video it was, but you, it, it showed you in one of some, some, parades and there was just people picketing ridiculous in the back. 

Grace: Ruben. Yeah, I actually, I kind of, whenever I see him at pride for his he's a picketer I do. Like we oddly like know each other now it's very strange.

Um, he's very, he's not nice. He's like, honestly, a pretty, he's really not a nice person, but in a strange way, I always try and say hi to him. Cause I do think that his he's so deep he's so like dehumanized, like strip the humanity of all the people that he sees of his parade. So it's a gay pride parade for your listeners.

It's not just like a parade or something. It's a pride parade. So he pickets these braids. He like travels across the country to do his picketing. And, um, I think he's done it so much that. [00:21:00] That opportunity to see so many image bearers, just like walking in their truth and feeling so loved. It's like the one day of the year that for some people they get to honestly authentically like walk in the street as themselves.

Right. Um, or maybe it's like how they they're they'd come out and their families with them on that first day. Like there are a lot of emotional things that come into it. And I understand that that's not something. I mean, I don't understand, but if you're like, I don't want to be there then. Okay. There's no, one's forcing you to be there, but he's choosing every year to go there.

And as a Christian, rather than like, look at all these people, um, celebrating, he just like really, he like yells at them on a megaphone and with his signs and all this stuff. And I think it's like kind of fascinating that he's just been able to stream. The humanity away from all these people that he sees.

Like he's surrounded by children of God and he's still inspired to just be spewing this hatred. So part of the reason why I like, I always make sure I let go say what's up to him. And like, now that we kind of know each other is because I, I want to [00:22:00] be like, I'm here, I'm a person, you know, me, you recognize my wife.

Like you. I know that like there is, I have to believe that there's a part of you deep down that cares about my wellbeing, because I'm saying what's up to you whenever we see each other. And like I V I'm always like Rubin, wow. Like this is an awful sign. Like, this is so super bad. Wow. Like everything happening here is like really scary to me.

But like, how are, how is your family? Like, I know this is a tough time and things like that because. I think that it just it's just makes me very sad that like, how does a person become this cold that you're just like standing at, in a group, surrounded by people. So many people that could be your friends that you could find commonalities with and you're choosing like your.

Yeah, you're choosing because of your interpretation of scripture to just yell at them and like the rate them and to take a pause and be like, what's up grace. I also love that my name is grace, because I think that like, that does challenge [00:23:00] people because I am like full of God's. And so, and so are you, and so is everyone, but I think that a lot of times people look at me and they're like this Haven, like, oh my gosh, she has like a shaved Mola and she's covered in tattoos.

Like, it's so sad. Like she's like this lost, like what about Christian girl, autumn? Like we've lost her. And the truth is, is that like, I was only faith only became available to me in a personal sense of like having a personal relationship with Christ. When I started living as who I've known myself to be, since I was.

Like truly, I wasn't, like, I looked like such a good Christian girl for so long. I go to all the services, your hands go up and all this stuff. And I was so concerned about what the world thought of me and like appearing well for other people. And then as soon as I like almost surrendered to the divine within myself, that I've been ignoring this call for so long, like.

Everything like just faith opened up to me that I'd never experienced before. I was able to like [00:24:00] wrestle with the doubt. I was able to pray. Like that was the weirdest thing. Like I always thought I was praying, but I'd be like, like keeping one eye open and just like, you know, be with my grandparents, like things like that, but like nothing.

Nothing really introspective. And I, I want to sort of be that example for someone like Rubin at the, at the picketers and whatever that like I'm here and you can hate me, but I'm still going to exist. I'm still gonna say hi to you. And you're going to have to say hi grace, back to me because that's my 

Matt: name.

Yeah, I was going to dress the fact that your name is grace. There is some irony involved with people that are hateful towards you because it's like, wait a minute, you realize God's grace to you. It's like, wow. You know it sucks that it's this exact subject that has become the focal point of so much hate within Christian.

This particular subject [00:25:00] is just met with enormous hate and condemnation. There's the grace of God covers all of the. And for us to say, well, you know, your sin is, it's despicable and it's condemned what you're, you're a farce, I've even heard preachers like John MacArthur say that, you know, you are denying your very existence.

And in that very statement is denying the existence of every person that had done defies within the LGBTQ community. It's it's extremely, extraordinarily unnecessarily hateful. I can't imagine how you deal with it. Like, especially now that you're more in a public eye. So to speak with, you know, hitting the charts, like how much hate have you gotten?

I just, can you, can you like put 

Grace: a, I have a tally on my phone one, um, Yeah, I have received a lot, but I think sort of like what we said earlier, I have been pretty good at [00:26:00] setting up certain boundaries for myself and for other people. Um, so that we all stay like mentally. Well, cause I agree with you that this is gosh, like people lose their minds over me.

Speaking about my lived experience and speaking about, you know, where, how I like my. Christian theology and how I'm understanding my face and how scripture is leading you to that understanding. Right. And people will like get really upset about that. And I think about all the, like the, the level of like depravity and hurt and corruption in the world that.

Then it becomes like, well, you know, let's not get involved. We're Christians. Like we don't want to talk about politics. And for me, like my faith informs me that like social justice is inextricable caring about justice and equality and equity for the world. That if I am not taking actionable steps to help my community, then I'm failing as a [00:27:00] Christian that I'm failing.

Absolutely. And so. I do receive, I do receive a deal, a great deal of hate, but not more than the support, you know what I mean? Like, it's a, it's a lot, but I'm pretty, it's nothing I haven't heard before. There are no, versus there were like sermons that people are like, there's no approach that someone has taken.

That's like blowing me away. Like, oh no, I've actually never considered that. You don't get to be. Uh, queer Christian without like a low key degree in theology. There's so many of my friends that like you have to, because your earliest memories are verses of scripture being levied against you. One of the first songs you learn is like, Jesus loves me.

This I know for the Bible tells me. So then you get to be like 13 or 14 specifically. If you are assigned female at birth, if you're a girl, then like, this is what happens. And like, Jesus loves me to sign a book. Not if you're a slut, not if you're a whore, if you have any lustful thoughts guys, like if you have even thought about porn, okay.

First of all, how dare you? Like you are shameful. Um, and specifically if you're [00:28:00] gay, like we'll absolutely get them out. Sorry, but like, definitely no, because, um, like definitely like, you know what I mean? Like it's like, you've, you're raised to. And just seek and love with this childlike sense of wonder a divine creator.

And then you get to like your teenage years, and then you're actually told if you are any of these things, that creator is no longer available to you. And I think that that. So many people have experienced that. And so, so many people have been resonating with the greeters could project. And so the, the support and people being like, wow, I really heard something that I went through in your lyrics has far outweighed the hate.

And I am in a really good place in my life. I'm genuinely like I'm really happy. I'm settled. I'm everything that people told me. I would not find in this lifetime, if I was queer, I've found. You know, I have a deep relationship with my creator. I feel fulfilled with my family and like all I'm excited about the future.

I have like, you know, I have a great deal of mystery and [00:29:00] curiosity and also doubt about like what comes with it. And I'm just very happy. And that is, I think that, like, that sort of counteracts any of that. Like, what is someone going to say about me? They don't, you don't know me and I'm doing fine.

Matt: Yeah. Wow. I'm curious too. Like even within the LGBTQ community, That Christian Christians are kind of more of the outliers. Would you, would you say that, but just only because of the, the hate that's associated and like you said, like the necessary understanding of deep theology that comes with it. Cause you have to defend yourself at every turn.

Like, I mean, do you get pain from them? Well, 

Grace: I, it's not, it's definitely not hate, so that's a really good point. So I definitely, I do receive, like, we can qualify this as hate from Christians like that is, I definitely received that on the LGBTQ plus side of things. I receive more like kind of skepticism and.

A little bit more sort of, um, like [00:30:00] I'll hear things like, wow, this is like Stockholm syndrome. Um, or I'll hear things like, why do you even want to be a part of this? Like, like these hateful group, like people that just cast you out, like, why are you even trying at this point, I hear more things along the lines of just people who have been so systemically hurt.

So comprehensively hurt over years and years and years of this sort of like built up in my opinion, rotten foundation of a toxic doctrine. I, so I hear more like skepticism of like, why, why even like touch this. The fruit of contemporary Christianity in the United States is rotten. Why are we even engaging?

And I think I'm way more cautious in how I sort of respond on that end rather than with Christians. I think you said at the top, like you love poking fun at Christians. Like you're happy to just, kind of be like little holy Christian troll or whatever. And I kind of occupy a similar space where I'll always like poke fun at people who are [00:31:00] especially like the, the really crazy, like you're a heretic, like the stuff that's like very like out of bounds.

Um, I'm I can kind of laugh at that a bit more, but from the LGBTQ plus side of things, People are typically speaking from a place of like significant hurt, like something has happened here. And I I'm far be it for me to be laughing at that. You know, I'm not going to like poke fun at that. I think that's more of like if for example, you don't want to follow me anymore because like I'm speaking too much about my faith and that.

Triggering for you. I want to be like, please. Don't like, absolutely like take time for yourself. Take care of yourself because that's the reality that there have people have just been so hurt in the name of God. And so you have to allow people to just like distance themselves from you. If that's something that's on my heart that I'm speaking about, that they're allowed to just like check out of that conversation.

I'm like knock on their door, be like, hello.[00:32:00] 

Matt: Oh man. Yeah. And forgive me for not like addressing the fact that we're mostly addressing, your album and we've kind of just been like circling around it and I'll put like a little preface at the beginning, but like, I wanted to say too, like one of the things that really drew me to you was the youth group song.

Cause I'm a former youth pastor. Uh, I did, um, I did one, I did one and this was like early, early years of me. Like I was probably like 2335. Oh my gosh. You are. Oh, you you, 

Grace: yeah. Good, good for you. Drop the skier in the comments, 

Matt: but anyways, yeah, like this was early young, young boy, Matt, a youth pastor. And, um, I, yeah, I knew stuff was happening, but I just didn't have enough helpers to like rally.

[00:33:00] Um, I had like a couple of leaders helping, but like every, every point that you had on the song, I just, it may be cackle like cry, laugh. Cause you're like the concept of youth group lock-ins what did, what is it? What a something concept. When an 

Grace: interesting, the youth group logins are really strange. I think concept that youth group leaders seem to really like, 

Matt: oh my gosh.

Yeah. If there's nothing you, like or agree with from this interview, I would encourage you to sardonically listen to you group by assembler. And it's so like, to me, that's pure comedy. Like I was crying. So it 

Grace: started as a Tik TOK song, like the first half of that song. Yeah. So I joined tick-tock like many people did on court, like during quarantine and.

I, you know, found sort of the like ex angelical hashtag like the progressive Christian [00:34:00] hashtag. And I found a lot of different like sort of like communities of people wrestling with faith in a similar way that I have been doing. And I wanted to join in the fun. And so I was at my piano one day and I just made up this little Diddy about youth group, because I've been unpacking so much of my experience growing up in the church and different.

So like my dad is an admissible priest, but a lot of the youth functions, like mission trips that we would go to were more of like the event evangelical variety. Um, cause he would like sort of like outsource some of the youth things to like the more like young life type of groups and stuff. And um, So I wrote the song about like youth group lock-ins and how, like this one, the line is like this one's for the kids who have their sexual awakening, walk-in it must've been confusing and I hope you're doing well.

And, um, I don't know, it was a joke. And then when I recognized I wanted to work on a CP, I started flushing it out and then it eventually became a little bit more sad at the end because I, I know that. A [00:35:00] funny song, but I also think that like, there's so many people who, you know, my wife included had an awful experience that you've heard and were really just like cut down.

Whether it's by kids being mean. Cause like kids are mean. And I think unfortunately a lot of times Christianity like very rigid Christian doctrine. It gives them rules to be mean to other kids. Like you're given these boundaries. Here's how you can make fun of this kid. If they do not fit this XYZ, certain thing that we just had a little small group over that you now have godly permission to make them feel small.

And I think that, like, we see that a lot. And so I wanted the second half of the song to just be for those kids, if you have that experience. So that's why it's like be kind to yourself, take care of that kid. You're not what they said about you because. Unfortunately in the spaces where like your parents drop you off to be like, here's where you'll be built up in the name of God or young image, better going out to make the world a better place.

And you go there and people are just like spreading rumors about you or like [00:36:00] microaggressions that youth leaders might not even have recognized would make someone feel small. And this isn't just for like queer people. This is like across the board, like there's in general, like just awful, like, like body shaming jokes and just all this stuff that like.

You're sort of, we're sort of told that like an image they're like looks a certain way and like, this is the prescription for like how God will love you. And so many of us, I mean, most of us fall outside of this. Like I don't, I can't have a single person. Who's just like crushing it. Maybe. I mean, My mom is a really good person.

That's about it. My mom and my dad. They're good. They're nice people. 

Matt: That's awesome. You got to show love to the rents would you say that also you have a good experience coming out due to the fact that your parents are more farming or was that, I mean, this is a really deep question. I'm sorry.

No, no, no, that's 

Grace: totally fine. Um, so. Are affirming, always been affirming, [00:37:00] but it wasn't something we talked about, if that makes sense. So like I knew that, like I knew that the, that our church and I knew like from a few context clues of my dad, that he was a very like loving and accepting person. But as I would go to like other youth functions, mission trips, like camps and things like that, and conferences, I was then taught a very, very good.

Theology. Like I was then like messages receiving in there were really different from what I was experiencing at my home church, which made it very confusing. And as a result, I didn't come out to my parents until later. Like I think I was in college by the time I came up to them, I'd come out to other people before.

And so I was sort of leading like a double life for my parents for awhile, but to like my dad's absolute credit that he is truly like, I think part of why I've been able to stay open and like develop. Personal relationship with God that I have is because of his example. When I called him on the phone to come out to him, he [00:38:00] was the best.

He was like, I'm just so happy for you. Like, I love you so much. And I actually was telling him about who is at my wife. I was so excited and you were, we just started dating. And I was like, just so excited to like, tell him about her. And he, like, we didn't, there was no crying. Like there was, it was really nice day, honestly.

And I've told them. Over and over kind of like that, that was amazing. You handled that really well. And that's a really scary thing for a lot of people and he doesn't seem to understand that that's a big deal. He's just like, whoa. I mean, I was very happy for you. Lizzie is a really nice lady. And I was like, yeah, but like, this is the, this is not a lot of people's experience.

I've never felt shame from you. I've never, you've always just been this. Example of just kindness that he's just a good, I always say he's like a good grease. Like he really crushed it. I don't know what, what he's reading. We need to have him drop that little scripture routine or whatever he's doing, but he's been a very good example for me.[00:39:00] 

Matt: Just thinking about like myself and like how I would handle that. I know I would struggle to be honest, like ability. I have a baby son he's 15 months old and he's adorable. He's so cute and fat. And I love him, but I've contemplated that I'm like, well, you know, how would you handle that if he ever came out to you?

And all I know is that I wouldn't freaking death threat him. Kick them out of my house. I wouldn't, you know, I'm trying to think of the things I would not do. Cause like there's so many examples of horrible christian parents and how they've completely, done psychotic things to their, their children, their own children that would come out to them and been extremely vulnerable to them.

Like, I don't want to do those things. That's for sure. And what I do want to do, I need to, you know, pray and think about more. But at the end of the day, he's my son. I love him and I will always love him. And so he, you know, he will always have [00:40:00] a precious place in my heart and, you know, That's me being completely transparent and vulnerable as far as like how I would do that.

But what upsets me is like you said, like not everyone has that experience where their parent is still loving towards them. When there's a point of disagreement on theology, that's what it comes down to. It's just that the theological disagreement, and it's sad that it's almost. You know that that child is committing suicide in their own family so that they can pursue themselves. Cause that's inevitably inevitably what it comes down to in some, I mean, 

Grace: I would say it's almost like the parent in that situation is like committing homicide, you know, like that's what I would say because it's the. You like, you have the responsibility of being there for your kid. The kid did not choose to be born.

That was something that you. Initiated, and we can get a biology lesson to your listeners later, but like you initiated this life into the world. And [00:41:00] so it is your responsibility to protect and care for that life, to the best of your ability and with all the resources that you have available to you, to make sure that you are creating a better place for this kid to exist, whoever they become, you know, like what if they.

I don't know what a fair, really strange

for Jesus guy. No, he's going to be good. He's going to be a really well adjusted. Like, if I'm a preacher's kid, there's going to be like down the line that your son is going to be like, my dad, I'm a meme kid. My dad was a meat, was a meme guy, and now I'm a beam kid. And here's my like, project about that. Um, I think that, uh, just promise me.

I mean, obviously it might not. She's 15 months old, but listen, I'm available. We're always going to be on the internet. You can call me, 

Matt: you can call [00:42:00] me. Yeah. And so, and here's something I want to do as well. Like just in our, based off our interaction, just like, keep it real with me. Like, as I mentioned, I'm not in the camp of affirming, but what H how can I do a better job?

Of of communicating to those, you know, who I would disagree with fundamentally, but still love w or what suggestions can you give me? And those who are in the same camp that I'm in, that, you know, we want to love and we want to be careful, but we also want to hold their own convictions. Like, what's your advice for us?

Grace: Yeah, I do have advice. Um, and what I would say, and I don't know if people will do this, but this is just what I would offer, because I know that there are people in my life that this would be very helpful. I mostly grew up hearing your sermon on like your side of things when it came to the preaching on those scriptures.

With the exception of it, my dad's church was uniformly [00:43:00] from an affirming perspective. Yeah. I can recite those sermons back to you sometimes for fun. I looked them up on my own just to like double check my work. I think that what I would ask is for people who come from an affirming position to do some of that homework that we've done to an affirming theology, you know, that's, I've poured in hours of like watching anti-gay sermons, like X, homosexual sermons, like all that stuff.

I know that line. I've been there. What I have found is that people who are on affirming typically have not done the same work to try and be inclusive. They sort of just operate from a position of like, this is how it is. And I'm so sorry. And it kind of speaks about like, let's come to the table equally.

As far as I can tell LGBTQ plus people are children. Most of the work with doing both sides of the research, right. And doing both like re listening to both sets of sermons. I don't know that an [00:44:00] affirming people are doing the same thing, because I think it's really scary because the predominant teaching in the church has been a certain way.

We have had to challenge ourselves. To, you know, listen to your side of things. And we have also like there's an abundant amount of biblical scholarship that says something different. I would love the time and dignity from people who are on affirming to just look it up to wow. Because I think that people will always say that we're operating out of.

That we just don't know what we're talking about. We've never considered these things well, help us out. Look at what we're looking at to, to end it. And if you arrive at a different conclusion, if you're like, Nope, I'm so sorry. Like my conviction speaks. Otherwise I appreciate the honesty. Honestly, I really would rather that than someone being like, I'm I accept everybody.

And then down the line you find out that they don't. Um, I think that's my advice is like, if you really love people, then. Do some homework on what they are believing rather than just assuming that we're steeped in [00:45:00] stupidity and that we don't know what we're talking about and that all of these scholars have are wrong.

You know, it's a little bit of humility and I understand that it's going to be really scary, but please extend that kindness. That would be my advice. Listen to one of the sermons that is affirming and inclusive. I believe that inclusivity is a choice. And I think that there is a choice here where there's an affirming inclusive theology and a lot of people are choosing not to even look at it.

And that I think is scary. And I think that we could be doing better and that would be my invitation. It's just an invitation. It's not like it's not anything. More serious than that. You don't have to sign a pamphlet or whatever. You're not going to go on a mailing list, but it's an invitation to be a bit more curious into an affirming theology because it's there and it's really meaningful.

And there are a lot of people that are finding fellowship in Christ through it. And I'd love for people to be part of that as well. 

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I [00:46:00] mean, I guess I don't want to be more self-congratulatory in a sense, like in talking about myself, but like, um, I am of the view that. I sh I should not be quick to say you're a Christian, you're not a Christian.

I I've, over the years, I've found that as a really dangerous position to take in any sense, um, because God is sovereign and he can do whatever the heck he wants. And so if somebody is even claiming, Hey, I love Jesus. Just acknowledge the fact they say, I love Jesus. And thank God for that. That's my position.

Like the fact that you just. Hey, this God thinks kind of cool. I'm like, yes, that's amazing. I'm so happy about that. And whether or not, you know, we agree on secondary, primary, tertiary theologies. I don't care. Like we should be ecumenical in the fact that those who, who see salvation belongs in Christ who has been resurrected from the dead.

That's awesome. Like we should love one another and even, and we should [00:47:00] love one another, even more if they disagree. Cause the Bible says to love your enemies. So it's like you're kind of stuck if you're being a jerk to people you're stuck. 

Grace: That's true. You're kind of telling on yourself that 

Matt: you really are.

I find the majority of people that. It might not be. Christians are the ones who are telling everybody who's Christian, who is not like just, it's just not a good fruit to have on your tree. 

Grace: Let's just 

Matt: say that. Oh man. So, Hey, we're about up here with our time. You know, what you got going on. You have a lot going on, 

Grace: you can follow me on social media and please don't send me block techs of Bible verses and retribution if you do so. But again, I will probably. Peacefully walkie with you for your own 

Matt: wellbeing, if you're a follower of this page or if our listener of this podcast. And if you do that, consider yourself blocked.

Okay. All right. You're not doing that in our name because we know we're not interested in, you know, what it means 

Grace: for Jesus in the name of[00:48:00] 

Matt: Well, Hey grace, you're, you're a beautiful soul. Seriously. This was 

Grace: so enjoyable for me. Thanks for having me. Thanks for reaching out. Thank you so much for having me and I really appreciate your time. Hopefully, meanings for Jesus just keeps on me and then maybe we'd be those sweet, sweet means things are getting heavy.

So I might need some good names in my life. Yeah, we're 

Matt: trying. All right. Take care.