63. “My Biggest Competition Is Always Me,” with Gabrielle Caruthers

I think the hardest part is just putting it out there.

Absolutely.

Put it out there.

They said more people would be successful if you could be bad in private.

But as a musician, you have to be bad in public before you get good.

Yeah.

So you have to keep going.

You have to keep going.

You have to keep putting yourself out there.

Today on Love Music, I speak with Gabrielle Carruthers.

Gabrielle Carruthers is the host of the Starving Artist Development Podcast, better known as

the SAD Podcast.

She interviews artists and creatives and also gives tips and advice and creates content

that helps artists monetize their brand.

Up next, all the way from Detroit, we have Gabrielle Carruthers.

So you have the Starving Artist Development Podcast or SAD Podcast, which I actually really

like.

I like the name too.

What drew you to want to support and create content for who you refer to as the starving

artist?

I have produced three shows.

And the Starving Artist Development Podcast was the third show that I decided to launch

pretty much because I feel like there was a need to speak to other creative entrepreneurs

like myself, especially after deciding to walk away from teaching dance after 20 years

and performing for 30 years.

I kind of reached a pinnacle in my life where I felt like I've done enough in my city.

I've accomplished enough in my city.

I have educated so many people on so many different levels.

And I always wanted to dive back into podcasting.

That was always something I was always passionate about.

And originally, when I went to school at Wayne State University, I originally went to school for journalism.

And then I decided, I said, no, I'm going to drop out of college, work at Disney for a year, and then go back and re-audition for the dance department.

So ended up obtaining my bachelor's of science in dance with a minor in communication studies.

During that duration, once I decided to walk away from teaching dance after like 20 something years,

I realized that I wanted to be able to give back to creatives that were kind of in the same predicament as myself.

I'm a mom. I'm a wife.

I guess you could say I'm officially a mompreneur now that I've decided to step back into working for myself again.

But with the initial start of the Starving Artist Development, it was born out of a need to still want to give back to creatives.

But also, it was born out of a need for me to ask those hard questions and talk about things that, you know, like I said, I was experiencing as an artist.

And some resources and funding and other things that just weren't available or accessible to people like myself, especially here in the city of Detroit.

and also breaking bread with my fellow colleagues here in the city that were creatives as well.

When we would sit down, we would have these hard conversations and I'm like, you know,

these are some really good conversations that we should capture, whether it's audio or video,

because I feel like I know I have a lot to say, but there are other people that have a lot to say

as well about being a creative and some things that we experienced that are not always the best

experience, but also offering wisdom to other aspiring creators. Now, when you say a hard

question or a hard conversation, can you give me an example? Yeah. So one example, I actually just

wrapped up an interview with one of my fellow podcast friends. His name is J.G. Galloway,

and he pretty much curated an opportunity for a lot of podcasters here in the city of Detroit.

There were no podcast studios here at all when we first started out podcasting some years ago.

and he encouraged a lot of people, you know, to kind of find their voice in podcasting and to

advocate for them and to let them know that that podcast really isn't at heart, right? That anybody

can do it. But within that interview, we both talked about navigating being a podcaster and how

that burnout is real. And sometimes you reach a point in like your podcasting career where you're

like, I want to take a break because I don't have anything else to talk about. Or I'm just,

I'm burnt out from the editing, from the content creation, from sitting across and talking to

people that may not be in alignment with what it is that, you know, you do whatever. But I know for

myself, when we spoke on that and he talked about, you know, the importance of just like,

do you like podcasts?

And if you want to find out

whether or not you like it,

just record your first 10 episodes

and then see how you feel afterwards.

And I know for me,

I always hit that plateau

with the 50th episode.

And then after that,

I was burnt out

and I would take breaks.

And starting the Starving Artist Development Podcast,

one thing I said to myself,

I said, listen, if you are going to do this, you have to be consistent, but also you have to be realistic with your recording schedule, especially balancing motherhood and being a wife and just, you know, balancing day-to-day stuff, right?

So, some other hard questions, too, that I've asked a couple of my artist friends.

I mean, sometimes we dig into, like, the origin of why they became the creative they became.

What inspired them to keep going?

What do some days feel like or look like for them when they're experiencing burnout or when maybe they've decided, you know what, I've reached my pinnacle in my career and I no longer want to do this anymore and I want to do something else.

Or if you were in the thick of it, was there ever a case in point where you were like, I don't want to do this anymore, but then you say, you know what, I'm going to keep going, right?

So those are some of our questions that I normally ask, but I do my best.

I try not to dig too deep unless if they want to talk about some things.

And like I said, I hold space for people to have those hard conversations because I'm a crier.

So I'm like, I can't do this.

We can't.

I'm getting more sensitive in my older age, too.

I can cry.

I know when you talk about hard questions and hard conversations, one of the things that makes creative successful is their delusion.

but also to be successful,

you have to have a really good relationship with honesty and be self-aware.

How do you navigate between these delusional artists and then bringing them

back down to reality so you can actually have a realistic strategy?

There are times where I do have to shake some of my creatives up a little bit

and say, listen, I'm going to need you to wake up and I'm going to need you

to get your stuff together because at the end of the day,

yes, it is about the creativity,

but also it's about how you structure your creativity.

And if you don't have systems in place or any type of structure, you are going to either fail as a creative.

You are going to end up a starving artist as a creative because you're having trouble accumulating income or even just sustaining income.

But also, it just looks unprofessional, right?

So you got to have certain things in place when you're a creative.

And I know even for myself, I'm a creative with ADHD.

So sometimes, you know, I do my best to work against my ADHD and I do pretty well with masking it.

But then there are days where I'm like, I have to have a schedule.

I have to have systems put in place where else my day is not going to go according to the plan.

So if that means, hey, I got to wake up at 5 a.m. so I can go walk on the treadmill, listen to my audio book.

And I can, you know, kind of double down on that.

And then I can maybe schedule out some emails for like a 13 minute time frame and then go take a shower.

And then go wake up my child and get her ready for school and make sure that her breakfast is good.

So just really systemizing my day, it helps me as a creative.

And even when we talk about creative burnout, there are times where we don't feel like creating.

So what I had to learn is that you have to pick days where you just don't focus on your creativity.

And you do something that has nothing to do with what it is that you specialize in.

So if it is, you know, going to like the pool hall or reading a book or seeing or watching a movie that you wouldn't normally watch or trying out a new hobby, something that you wouldn't normally do.

I think what helps me and some of my other colleagues kind of spark their creativity is just doing stuff that would be out of the norm.

You talk about systemizing and you talked about consistency.

And I think that sometimes artists can get misled.

You go on social media and everybody's like, put out your music.

You got to be consistent over and over again.

But I think consistency without nuance is where the burnout comes from.

You know, so if you direct an artist to be consistent, what are some of the ways that

they might be able to monitor them so they're not just working in vain, just activity with

no progression?

What are some of the things they should be paying attention to?

Instead of just the number of things they're posting or number of songs they're putting out.

Just blind consistency.

I will say this.

And this is going to sound.

I wouldn't say off the record, but.

I really feel like the first thing that artists really need to do, they need to pay attention to their mental health first before they like put out any type of content.

They need to take inventory of where they're at physically and mentally, because sometimes you can be a creative and you can just be pushing out content.

because you're supposed to push on content.

Like if I have friends that are, you know, rappers or whatever,

and they're constantly promoting their music,

but I find myself at times saying, but who are you?

You know, and yes, I like your music

and maybe some other people like your music,

but who are you as a person, not just the artist?

What can you tell me that other people don't know about you?

That, yes, I know about you,

But what can you tell other people something that they don't know besides your music?

Because when you're just constantly pumping out content, at some point, you know, people might start to tune out the stuff that you're pumping out constantly because it's just always music, music, music.

But it's never, well, what's behind the music?

Like, what's the substance behind the music?

What's the story behind the music?

What keeps you motivated to keep creating that music?

And I feel like when you have those honest and organic conversations, I think you can make better content.

And then once you do like a brain dump, you can then systemize that content and make it easier.

But also picking a realistic schedule.

For a lot of artists, the only way that they can make their money for real is through sync licensing, streaming royalties.

And like other ways to maybe like physical product.

Right.

But.

Merch.

Yeah.

And merch.

Right.

But we're living in a day and age where like the analog is being phased.

Everything is just, you know, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick.

So we're losing the momentum, but also the focus to really sit and to divest in the music.

Right.

And to enjoy the music.

Like my homegirl.

I have her album up here and I bought it because.

I know what it's like to just sit and to listen to a song and to allow the song to take over,

right? But even with the constant creation and doing rollouts and stuff, like I said,

for a lot of artists, you really have to figure out why you're doing this to begin with, right?

Because I feel like once you forget that, then it's no longer about the music. It's no longer

about the artistry anymore.

So really knowing your why

and checking in

when it comes to your physical

and your mental health,

I feel like that is going to help you

with pretty much creating

and pushing out better content

instead of just pushing out stuff

for the sake of the algorithm.

There's a theory,

and I believe,

I want to say it's Gary V,

but I could be wrong,

so don't quote me on the source.

It's almost like sitcom mentality, right?

You wouldn't sit down

and watch 30 minutes of commercials,

but you will watch 26 minutes of a story

and then four minutes of ads, right?

To fill in that 30 minutes.

So it's almost like, well,

if you're going to ask somebody for a purchase

to sell them something,

you should be entertaining them at a five to one ratio.

Five, you know, five posts of entertainment,

you know, five posts about just you,

your story, your life.

And then you can maybe do the ask.

And the point of the article was,

the longer you prolong the ask,

the bigger the ask can be, you know?

You're showing up, hey, share my story,

share my song, come to my show. If you're asking for something every week, it starts to become

monotonous. But the longer you can provide value before that ask, the better off you can be and

the bigger the ask can be. Have you seen any of this play out in real time? I'm just curious if

you have an example of that theory or if maybe you disagree with it. No, I do agree. So I have a

friend, he's an artist here in the city that I've had to talk to because he did an EP and actually

this is his five-year anniversary or his EP.

And he called me because he's like,

I just want to just, you know,

spit some ideas to you and see like how it sounds.

But he was struggling with knowing

that he could implement these things.

And it wasn't because of the funding, right?

Or the creativity,

but it was the willingness to know

that his imposter syndrome didn't have to exist

with his creativity.

and with that

pouring back into him

and telling him like

what he's capable of doing

for my friend to come back

and say like wow

like thank you for pouring

back into me

because there are always times

where I doubt myself

or I doubt that

my creativity isn't enough

even when I am pushing out

you know my music

or my content

it's important

to have those conversations

even with your artist friends

because you know

creators are sensitive too

right what did Eric

why do you say keep in mind i'm an artist and i'm sensitive about my shirt right so so you really um

i've noticed a difference even with my uh my friend my colleague that i was talking to

i noticed a difference in how he pumps out his content now right and it has helped with increasing

his downloads now of course is it going to take time to reach like this milestone where you can

make a certain amount of income off of your streaming rights and stuff yeah it is but

But also, he's created an entire brand and he's done a lot of storytelling around his album or his EP.

So I think that helps too with his success as an artist because he's really big on storytelling.

And I know myself, I love Nas and Jay-Z and Kendra Lamar.

And I love how they approach their writing process and how in a lot of their music, there's a lot of storytelling.

There's a lot of buildup.

Yes.

So at least for me, I know that keeps me interested in the music because there's substance behind what it is that they're doing.

But I also feel like I'm in this mind movie where I'm in the scene with them.

I can smell the air.

I can like touch whatever,

whatever item they're talking about.

Right.

So I really think that makes a difference to like really just,

like you said,

honing your brand,

honing your craft and being authentic in the process,

but also being realistic about your music.

Right.

And what you can pump out,

what you can't pump out.

And I know sometimes you do have to appeal to your listeners,

which is kind of awesome.

Your problem.

Right.

I wanted to ask you about that too,

Because there's a school of thought that says that obviously if you're an artist, you want to be authentic and tell your story and make music you like.

Of course.

The minute you decide you want to be in the music business, you actually want to ask the public to subsidize your lifestyle with their money so you can sell your art.

You are now in service to the public.

Do you believe that artists that are looking to be in the music business, like financially viable, are in service to the public?

Unfortunately, they are.

I mean, at the end of the day, where you're an artist, you're a business.

Yeah.

What did Jay-Z say?

I'm not a business man.

I'm a business man.

Yeah.

And when it comes to your artistry, which it does suck at times because you do have to

often remind yourself, am I doing this for me or am I doing it for the greater good, right?

And we know music is universal and music is meant to heal and touch the lives of others,

right?

And when you are a musician, even if you're a DJ, if you're a writer, if you're a choreographer, you want to create things that you like.

But at the end of the day, it's about stewardship and you have to create things that appeal to your audience.

And I learned that even as a choreographer when I was working, when I worked on different projects, working in the school system, working as a contractor.

I was a co-founder of a dance studio.

I'm no longer a co-founder, but we get so engulfed in the creation process because obviously we love to create, but then we forget that if we are asking people to subsidize our lifestyle, we have to create the things that they want to see.

I agree with that too.

And I think that's one of the toughest pills to swallow as an artist because you get these lovely people and they're like, I just want to play my guitar and make songs.

And if you want to do that, great.

Get a nine to five and make songs on your guitar.

But if you want to make north of whatever the cost of living is in your city, you have to make music that people that resonate with people, not necessarily that they want to buy.

I mean, you can build a community and make money with that community, but you have to make music that appeals to other folks.

You know, you don't you get you get one or the other.

You're a business or you make music for your friends, you know?

Yeah. And I think I think artists blur those lines and it gets really discouraging because they're like, I think it's good.

but it's not, I think it's good.

I want to make music around the clock,

but I can't get enough people to come to shows

or stream or whatever.

And I'm stuck in this rut.

And I think they have a hard time

accepting it as a business.

You know, they're just kind of waiting for it too long.

Yeah.

When we always send our music

to our friends and family,

we get, what is it?

A biased opinion, right?

They love us.

Yeah, they want to hurt our feelings.

Right.

They're not going to tell us the truth.

So if you take that music and you do like an honest listening party with people that don't know you, they've never heard your music before, then I feel like that's when the feedback is more authentic than it is when it's coming from a friend or family or spouse.

Right. Of course, your friends and family are going to champion you.

I mean, why not? But then you have some friends that are low key haters and that's OK, too.

But yeah, definitely getting into those rooms and doing like you can do like a soft listening party.

Matter of fact, a gentleman here in Detroit, his music is tied into coffee.

Somehow he incorporates coffee into his music videos or his short reels and stuff.

But that's his thing, right?

So if you were to play his songs, his songs would go well at a coffee house or an unplugged or something like Real Chill and Low Key.

Sounds great.

But it matches his brand, right?

So he did something that I could appreciate

because I'm a coffee drinker.

I'm a coffee lover,

but I'm also a music lover.

And he did his event at a coffee shop.

It was a local coffee shop here in the city.

And it's a black-owned,

female-owned operated coffee shop.

And he incorporated his listening session

with, you know,

complimenting the drip coffee

or the matcha teas and stuff.

And he played off of that,

But it was a nice thing because he was surrounded by people that did not know him or may have never heard his music before.

So he could get honest feedback.

Now, I enjoy his music, but it definitely helps.

And then also for artists, sometimes you do have to step outside the box.

So back to the gentleman I was talking to earlier, my homeboy, his EP that is supposed to, we're celebrating the five-year anniversary.

There's one song on there called Decompression, right?

And I said, well, I know you want to do some small micro performances or whatever,

but have you ever thought about incorporating this song with a live band at a yoga or meditation seminar?

Sounds far-fetched.

But if the song is about mental health and awareness and battling depression and stuff,

You don't have to perform it in a traditional setting.

You can find the things that kind of coincide with your music.

But I think when you are creative too, and sometimes you have to appeal to a certain audience,

you get stuck in the mindset of, oh, I have to perform in like a traditional setting.

I have to be on a stage.

I have to have, you know, a band and a mic.

And it's like, but no, if you think about your music, you can market your music differently

and you can still build on your audience.

It doesn't have to be in a traditional setting.

Yeah. Just, you know, thinking outside the box. But, you know, that's my take.

I'm so glad you brought that up because you always hear the criticism. People say,

I want to be a musician, but now I have to be an influencer. Now I have to be a content creator if

I want to be a successful artist. And I think people are kind of looking at it wrong because

they're looking at what everybody else is doing and thinking, oh, I play my music, but I have to

do that. And I think I don't think it's that there's been content creators before social media,

Like Prince released an album for free in a newspaper.

Kanye was putting videos on the side of a building.

The idea that you have to use this like traditional,

what you know is content creation or influencing is like,

I think it's the wrong framework.

I mean, people, artists that you know have been doing crazy, interesting stuff.

And if you put the same creativity into the promotion as you did the album,

I think artists would have, it would just be fun.

You know, I think it would be a lot of, it'd be hard work.

I think it'd be a lot of fun. How do you advise folks that want to play music,

but don't want to make content or have an issue with content?

I had a run in with that situation. Cause I'm going to be honest. I am a podcaster who is

also sick and tired of making content on social media, but I'm sorry. The struggle that I have

as a creative is appealing to the algorithm and seeking the validation of others.

Yeah.

And I think that's what holds up like a lot of musicians when it comes to putting out

their content.

Because if you think about it, before it was them, the content creation, we were already

creating content.

Like you said, it's just there wasn't a name attached to it.

So it felt good.

It felt fun.

Almost like we are in a situation ship and there's no title.

Like, no, we don't have a title.

We're just having fun.

We're exploring.

We're doing things.

But now that we have to put a title on it, it's not fun anymore.

Yeah.

It's just not fun.

So I think that's what it comes down to.

It's the validation that a lot of artists are seeking on top of the fact that that imposter syndrome is real.

I know I struggle with imposter syndrome a lot, even when I'm recording.

I have to sometimes take a step back and tell myself,

like, hey, you've got this.

You can do this.

There's nobody else better than you.

You are you for a reason.

I think I'm a pretty good podcaster.

Then I meet a Gabrielle Carruthers,

and I'm like, I better step my game up.

No, and it's so funny because I literally had a moment

where I'm sitting here, and I am constantly critiquing myself.

And if anybody knows about any creative,

I don't think they're ever satisfied with their accomplishments.

They're constantly striving for perfection.

Like, think about it with Prince, who is my favorite artist.

And I just want to wish him a happy belated birthday.

But also with Michael Jackson, right?

Michael Jackson, he made a comment one time, and it was hilarious.

He said, whenever God will bless me with an idea, I had to act on it immediately because I was scared that God would give the idea to Prince.

And then I would just lose being able to fulfill that idea, right?

But there is a pressure sometimes to want everything to be perfect.

And we forget that with creativity, there are just going to be times where things are just going to be so cringe.

And in order to keep yourself sharp, you just have to do it.

You have to do it with uncertainty.

You have to do it even when the algorithm doesn't respond to what you're putting out there.

But also you have to do it with courage.

You have to do it when you don't believe in yourself.

You have to literally hype yourself up to do the things that you may be scared to do because there may be somebody else out there watching you who may need what you have and they see you as motivation.

And I know for me, whenever somebody says that they see my work and they compliment me, I have to take a step back because it's humbling for me because I know how hard I am on myself.

Really just give yourself grace.

So from one perfectionist to another, how do you pinpoint the happy medium between qualitative work and perfectionism?

Because obviously there's an industry standard.

Obviously, there's like an objective good that most people would say, all right, that's a good job.

Even if you're not familiar with the medium.

How do you know when, all right, this is, I don't want to say good enough, but you're like, all right, this is my standard.

And I can walk away from this knowing it's not perfect, but it's presentable.

You know what? I think it's just knowing. Like, you just know. And it's not necessarily like,

okay, yeah, so I've met the industry standard or whatever. But I think

you really just have to tell yourself, like, you know what? I did do the job.

Yeah.

And this actually, I am producing quality work, right? And it's okay. Like, it's okay,

because at least I had the opportunity to create. And even if this only touched one person,

Right. At least I got to do it. Right. So but then, you know, there are times where you're like, girl, you could have did better and you know, you could have did better. And you you know your expectation and you know your standard. So act according. Right. And there are times where even like I've had to I've had to take a step back with my own creativity.

And not because I was comparing myself to my peers, but I know that there's a certain expectation that I expect out of myself now that I'm older.

And there are just things that I will no longer create or tolerate because I do believe in divine alignment.

But also I believe in popping my stuff and knowing that I'm no sugar honey I see.

And there's nobody is doing what I'm doing.

But also, there's one me.

There's one me.

And I'm cool with that.

I don't have to be like anybody else.

I don't have to follow somebody else's standard, per se.

I mean, unless there's a big shake behind the knee.

Okay, then we'll figure that out.

But as far as setting the expectation, raising the bar for myself, right?

my biggest competition is always going to be me.

Sure.

And once I got to the point where

the validation was no longer needed

because I put in the work,

even though I'm still a student of the game,

I'm always learning.

I'm always willing to learn.

But there are times where I really do have to be like,

no, I know this stuff and I'm good at what I do.

And I'm not going to let you convince me otherwise

because I've dealt with that my entire life too, where one, I was a plus size dancer.

And you're talking about adversities, like facing some hard days as a dancer.

There were times where I was called fat and I had to keep going.

There were times where I had a contract revoked because I didn't lose enough weight

and I had to keep going.

I was rejected to the dance department at Wayne State because they said I was big.

And then went back to re-audition 30 hours every year and got in.

But that's me getting out of my own way and telling myself, you know what, I made a promise to myself.

And one thing I'm not going to do, I cannot disappoint my inner child.

And now that I have a daughter, I feel like it's different.

It is so different now because she's looking up to me and she's watching what I am doing.

So even if I do mess up, I want her to know that it's okay to make those mistakes however you pick yourself up.

and you keep going.

Even when you want to cry in a shower,

even when you face adversities,

when you're dealing with grief,

when you're dealing with loss,

loss of a job,

you know,

loss of anything.

But I think that's the best part

about being a creative

is because you can let all of that out

in your creativity.

And then don't be a musician

because you can write about it,

you can sing about it.

There are so many things that you can do.

You can take those negative experiences

and you can shape it

into something beautiful.

You can create something beautiful

and then you can package that

and send it off into the world

and touch somebody, right?

You're helping somebody.

And I don't want to get too, you know,

biblical or nothing because, you know,

but I've always felt like

God would not put more on you

that you cannot handle.

And sometimes there are battles,

battles that we fight,

battles that we are like,

God, I don't know why you're putting this on.

I cannot handle this right now.

But those battles are meant to teach you

and they are always going to be a blessing in disguise.

And it's not always about why is this happening to me?

It's more of why is it happening for me?

So I know a lot of my struggles taught me a lesson,

taught me a hard lesson.

Now as an adult, well, I mean, I've always been an adult,

but now that I am like reaching 40, I'm knocking on 40,

I no longer look at things as it happening to me.

I look at it as, okay, what's the lesson that I need to learn from this?

What is one of the most valuable lessons that you have learned when it comes to adversity and getting over something?

Something that doctors can kind of take with them.

Last year around this time, I did the unthinkable.

I had to bury my 19-year-old niece.

She battled cancer for two and a half years, and I watched her go through that.

But it was her strength and her adversity that pushed me to keep going.

And really, she was the initial reason why I launched the Star of Artists and Movement podcast.

And I did that because the way that she handled her cancer battle.

You know, you're 19, so you're like, you still have the world to experience, right?

But for her, the world was bigger than her oyster.

she knew, you know, her time was

winding down, but

she encouraged us to keep living.

Right? So when she said

that, I was like, I

have nothing to

complain about. Right.

No matter how hard it

is. I'm like, if she

can get through that and she can battle

that and she can do it

as gracefully as she did and to be

as young as she was after losing her

mom prior to that, like four years ago.

Jeez.

There's no reason why I can't sit up here and start this podcast.

There's no reason why I can't give back to the creative community in a different way.

I don't have to do it through dance anymore.

I can do something else.

There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to take the chances or take risk for myself or bet on myself when she was willing to bet on her life.

Right?

Absolutely.

And we have to be okay with taking risks.

Yeah.

Some of us, we won't take the risk.

We won't put ourselves out there.

Even musicians, like, it's scary to put your work out there.

It's scary to be criticized or ridiculed, you know, for your creativity.

But, like I said, I think the hardest part is just putting it out there.

Absolutely.

Put it out there.

They said more people would be successful if you could be bad in private.

But as a musician, you have to be bad in public

before you get good.

Yeah.

So you have to just, you have to keep

going. You have to keep going. You have to keep putting yourself

out there. And

for me,

like I said, I am grateful

for the lesson that

I did learn, especially when my

niece was here and

some of the wisdom she dropped

even at her young age.

And I look at her story,

I look at her time, and I look at

just everything, right?

And I'm grateful because

I'm grateful that I had that time with her.

Even when it was hard to navigate that time

because I was still working as an educator.

But it made it easier for me

to walk away from my job as an educator,

I'll tell you that much.

Working education was hard.

It was hard too, right?

And when you start to realize

how beautiful life really is

and that there are so many things out there,

like the world really is your oyster

and you just have to be willing

to just continue to put yourself out there.

And I think this may be the first year

that I have,

I've bet on myself

way more than I thought I would,

even just in the last six months.

Six months ago,

I don't think I would have pitched

to be on a podcast

or somebody else's podcast.

Six months ago,

I don't think I would have pitched

or accepted a brand deal from the Lion King.

So you go through like this,

this evolution phase,

right?

Even as an artist.

And sometimes it does,

it takes like a great tragedy to push you in a direction where you're like,

you know what?

Let me pick myself up by the bootstraps.

Yeah.

Let me get going.

Let me do what I got to do.

But let me do it knowing that I was given another opportunity to wake up and

create.

Right.

It doesn't feel like a blessing sometimes like at the time,

but like the ability to create,

it is wonderful to be able to fill space where there wasn't anything and

Fill it with a song or a painting or any or dance steps or whatever.

You know, what's something that you're proud of that might not have anything to do with podcasting?

I look back at some pictures of myself as an educator.

And sometimes you forget how many people you've taught or you've reached over the years.

Right. Because I just wasn't documented like I should have.

Sure. And then I had to create a portfolio for myself.

Like I finally said, I'm going to sit down and I'm going to work on my personal portfolio for my brand.

And when I started reflecting on the things that I accomplished, I was like,

Gabrielle, I'm so proud of you.

Like, I can't believe you did all of that, you know, by yourself.

So one, I'm proud of that.

But two, I am also proud of the woman that I am becoming in the midst of my own adversities, right?

Like I've struggled with chronic illnesses.

I developed something called alopecia areata in 2019.

And again, when you say it out loud,

I don't say it so people can feel sorry for me.

I say it because I want people to see me as it's the same.

That's what I'm saying.

But I have hard days.

I always have hard days, right?

Because it seems like it never ends.

The storm just keeps coming, right?

It's always something.

I really do have to like laugh to keep from crying.

Like I'm a millennial.

Millennials are always cranking jokes.

We don't take anything serious, right?

But I'm the same way.

I like laugh just to get through stuff.

Yeah.

Just to get through.

And sometimes, you know,

you can't always laugh about everything,

but there are times where I can look at stuff

and I can crank a joke

about something that's happened to me, you know,

or like I said, I can look at it as,

maybe this had to happen to me

so that way I could be an inspiration to somebody else

because my husband would tell you

there are days where I am like

why is this happening to me?

Why did this happen to me? What did I do?

I'm a good person but

I think I'm proud of how I show

up every day

in spite of everything that

I'm going through because you talk about a book

I can definitely write a book

about some things that I've experienced and

when I tell some people

they look at me and they're like

but you're so full of lies.

Like you're so bubbly and whimsical.

And I'm like, yeah, sometimes I don't even know.

Oh, I'm, you know, able to show up and be present

and be, you know, goofy Gabby or whatever.

Right.

But, um, but yeah, but I don't know,

cause it's easier to stay mad about stuff, right?

Than it is to choose happiness.

So sometimes you just got to choose happiness.

But my last and final thing that I'm extremely proud of

is being able to

birth my child.

Because she was a difficult pregnancy too.

She was a very difficult pregnancy.

Yeah, and she was a twin.

But listen,

I felt like that was

one of my greatest accomplishments.

Like I've done a lot.

I see it, but

I couldn't do it.

I literally couldn't do it.

So it's a heck of an accomplishment.

To become a mom

and like I said,

to wake up and to just keep going

after everything that I experienced

when I was carrying my daughter.

She literally just had her preschool ceremony

and they gave her a cap and dial.

And I was like, oh my God,

I'm about to start crying.

I was trying to give her a cap and dial, right?

But it was because I knew the story behind

seeing that picture of my five-year-old daughter

and saying, you did it, Joe.

You did it, Joe.

You brought a holy human being into the world

and you kept her alive.

So that, I'm proud of that.

And not to like, I know I can ramble sometimes,

but yes, I'm proud of the people

that I've taught over the years.

I'm proud of the obstacles that I can see you to overcome.

But most importantly, I am proud to show up

as my daughter's superhero.

I love that.

I guess what they say, maturity isn't measured by just age,

but the time horizon on our decision-making, right?

Like when you're a kid,

You just, all you know is you want to eat right now.

And then you're a teenager.

I know what I want to do this weekend.

And now as we start to get into those later chapters of our life,

we start to think further into the future, right?

From a professional standpoint,

what is something that you're most worried about?

And then something that you're most excited about?

Well, I'm definitely worried about the funding.

I'm worried about the funding as a creative

because I'm going to be really honest with you.

Okay.

Working with other creatives can be difficult.

Yeah.

And I say that in the nicest way, but I'm also going to say it in the honest way.

Okay.

Because it's two things.

Either creatives, they struggle to be able to afford certain resources, or they don't believe in investing in those resources.

And I'm saying that as a creative because I've dealt with that and I've had to actually turn away clients and say, you know what?

We're not going to be a good match.

Right.

Because I don't mind helping and I don't mind really giving back and showing up for you.

But I also know that I have to stop myself because I can't keep giving and giving and giving to the point where I'm like, okay, well, now I'm managing you.

And now that's a different price point.

That's a different service, yeah.

That's a different service, right?

But something that I am excited about, I'm excited about the climate of the creative culture.

And by creative culture, I mean, I remember growing up, like being a creative was, that was kind of like a nerd thing, I guess.

Like, you know, we were like a theater kid or we were into like certain

You called them art nerds.

Yeah, like you were really like, you were a nerd, right?

now. It's a fad. It's popular. Everybody wants to be a creative entrepreneur. And I'm like,

I've been a creative entrepreneur, like been in my entire life. So,

but I'm glad that you all see the value in us now. So now you just got to pay us for our creativity.

Right. True. When you talk about being excited for the creative climbing, give me some examples,

Maybe some other creators, podcasts, or just music.

This is a music podcast.

So who are you listening to that excites you?

Maybe some creators I might not know about.

Oh, and I listen to everybody.

Like I have such a large palette when it comes to music.

I will listen to country.

Shania Twain was my girl when I was growing up.

I love some Shania Twain.

I will listen to Madonna.

I would listen to

I just

put on Pebo Bryson's album

not too long ago

and that's

a funny story behind that

I am actually supposed to be

a Bryson not a Carruthers

so Pebo

is actually my husband's cousin

but they only met like twice

yes that's his third cousin

and they all look alike

pretty cool and what I had to explain to my

husband I said do you know who this man is

and what he has done for our general age.

And I was like, you don't understand.

I said, that's big, but that was a ho.

He's like the Mount Rushmore of like black adult contemporaries,

like Luther, Peebo, maybe Aaron.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you.

So it sucked that we didn't get to see him in December

because again, he literally like just passed away.

And I was like, dog, that's like the last person I needed to see.

But yeah, so Peebo, who else?

I mean, you know, like I said, Kendrick, Naj, Jay-Z.

You know, I'm from Detroit, so I'm Jay Dillon, through and through, Slum Village.

I have some of my local artist friends, Mahogany Jones, Miss Corona, Trey Freeman.

Nice.

Steven, I can't remember his last name, but he just had the event not too long ago.

My friend Fonzo, like, and I'm not saying this, like, because they're my friends.

Like, I'm saying it because they're actually really good.

Even though I just had the conversation about your friends love your music.

But I'm like, no, they're actually really good.

They are really good.

So I definitely try to tap into the local music scene here.

And then Detroit is big on my ghetto tech.

Ghetto techno.

So I listen to a lot of that too.

My homeboy, Shee Fee McFly, he's an artist, but he's also a ghetto tech producer.

My friend Nick Speed is a producer here.

But Detroit is a, it's the music mecca.

Yeah.

Like Motown.

When you think about, yeah, when you think about Detroit, think about Motown, but there's so much more to Detroit.

Sure.

Besides the Motown, because like I said, you have the ghetto tech, you have the gospel, you have.

Did you know that Detroit was the home of the Otis Harp community?

How could I possibly know that?

Because who knows that?

Like, who would know that?

We are the home of the hearts, the heart community.

Yeah, I didn't know that.

So if you need a heart player for your wedding,

we're the first generation heart organization here.

I'll see you, right?

That's mine.

Hopefully I won't be having a second wedding, but...

I mean, just saying like, so yeah, if y'all need a heart player,

you can be right.

But yeah, so thinking about Detroit's music scene

at how we've birthed so many different styles of music.

And sometimes we don't get the credit that we deserve, right?

And yes, Barry Gordon, thank you.

I appreciate you for being the pillar of Motown.

But before there was Motown,

there were so many other different styles that was birthed,

or Motown was birthed because of those other different styles, right?

And if you're from Detroit, of course, you're going to love music.

You're just going to love music.

You can't help it.

But I listen to everything.

If it's to answer your question, I listen to everything.

So as somebody that works with a bunch of artists, you always hear somebody say this person has it.

They just have it.

I don't know what it is, but they have it.

In your opinion, if you were to define it and you just had to, because most people can't define it.

What would you say when you meet an artist that has it?

What does that look like?

I can't put it in words.

You just kind of feel it.

You just feel it.

Like, you know, like, oh my gosh, this person is really talented.

And I'm saying this without my own horn, because I try not to do this.

There are some people that I know before they even blew up or got famous.

Yeah.

And I was always pushing them like, yo, you're really talented.

I really think you should pursue this for real.

And they're looking at me like, nah, I'm not talented.

Here we are 10 to 15 years later, and they're crushing their careers.

Yeah. And you kind of sit back and you're like, I told you so. I'm not going to take credit for it. But I don't know if it's like a gift or anything, but I feel like I've always known if somebody just has it, you just feel it. It's a feeling. It is really like an aura.

I was we were talking about it the other day and it was like I think it's when like it's when the talent the visual aesthetic and the confidence are aligned effortlessly like some people like like you're not doing it on purpose.

It's like all right they're obviously good but I meet people that are good that don't have it.

You know what I mean?

And then I meet people that are super talented but for whatever reason they don't have like that magnetism.

I'm like that's a good artist.

You know what I mean?

I'd watch somebody and then every once in a while somebody walks in a room they don't even do anything.

I'm like that's a star.

I don't know what it is, it's just a star

and I think

when all those three things align

and it's happening organically

and I think that's what it is

yeah, you just kind of feel it

it radiates

I don't know, it's like Jesus walking

in a room with a halo

you just know

with you seeing artists

that came from this point

to this point

let me try

I'm going to choke myself with the question

With you being somebody who's seen an artist get from here to here,

what do you feel is more important, talent or work ethic?

This is what I used to tell my students.

Sometimes I don't care how talented you are.

If you are lazy, I'm not going to pick you.

I don't care if you can bust out that pot of marée for what's going on.

You are the best of the best.

But baby, I will take passion.

I will take drive.

I will take agility.

I would take the will to want to succeed over the talent.

Because talent is one thing.

I know they say sometimes it's not about what you know.

It's about who you know.

But your work ethic is always going to outshine what it means to be talented.

I mean, who's a good person at?

They're not really talented, but they're just a hard worker.

Matter of fact, okay, so Eazy-E couldn't rap.

He just was not a rapper.

He couldn't, no.

But he had a good team behind him.

He had to put his lines in one at a time, I heard.

Yeah, like, he was horrible, right?

There are some other people, too.

I can really be like, you're not that good.

But you have the work ethic.

But I don't know.

But yeah, but like, I don't know.

Easy kind of just came to my mind.

Like, I remember I was listening to a song the other day.

That's actually a perfect example of somebody who just had it.

Like, he might not have been able to, like, technically rap.

But his, like, presence.

Like, he would walk in a room, this little guy.

And you just know he was in charge.

you know that was it that's it that's what it is yeah that's it yeah because i mean you can you

can make an artist you can groom them you can teach them your ways you can you know hire a

ghostwriter like you can literally make a curate a star and i know sometimes they say like a star

is born but like no i think you can manufacture a musician i think it starts with somebody i think

the people that we've seen that have broken through were already well ahead of like the average singer

dancer whatever they were already ahead and then they just got put into like that pop machine

you know and out came your britney spears dua lipa thorn blank they got the actor the extra

zoosh matter of fact drake drake is a good example i remember when drake first started

so you know drake he's from canada he's from toronto and for a while he his music was kind of

centered around the J Dilla sound,

which was like neo-soul, hip-hop, whatever.

So you have Common, even Kanye,

like old Kanye West, right?

Slum Village, like Erykah Badu.

And he would put his stuff on MySpace.

And it wasn't great, but it was good.

It was like, okay, this is nice.

I can listen to it.

When he performed a few times,

I would go and see him perform

before he was really famous.

And I was like, okay, this can do.

He would perform at the casino.

And, you know, with us being in Detroit, we could just take like a 10 minute drive over the bridge.

He was probably I feel like he was one of those artists that they took and were like, OK, now we're going to give you a little bit of money and we're going to start grooming you and molding you.

And then he came out with the album.

I think it was Take Care or something.

And that's the second one.

And I was like, so it was it had to be his third album.

He was sitting at the table with his gold ring.

And I know this album because it was my favorite.

It was one of my favorite albums.

It's incredible.

but that album was the album where i was like there like like he arrived yeah he arrived yeah

and you and you could feel it you could smell it you could see it yeah you knew like it's his time

now yeah it's his time so that that's like the it that's it that's it okay so if you had a 30 second

elevator ride with your younger self 10 11 years old you only have 30 seconds what are you telling

that young lady. Never give up. Never let anybody tell you what you can or cannot do. You are

beautiful. You are more than brilliant. You are a star. You are remarkable and nobody can do it

better than you. Love it. Good. I'm gonna get it on t-shirt. Oh, Gabrielle, I had such a good time

talking with you. Please. I'm sure people are going to see this and want to support what you

are doing. Can we get ahold of you so we can stay plugged in? You can follow me at Gabrielle

Brothers. That's G-A-B-R-I-E-L-L-E-C-A-R-U-T-H-E-R-S. I am on Instagram. I am rarely on TikTok,

but I guess I'll start posting on TikTok now. I'm on Threads heavily. I'm in the Threads community.

So if you want to send me something, yes, please come over to Threads. We are over there having

some good conversations. I love it. I love it over there. And also you can visit my website for my

podcast, StarvingArtistDevelopment.com. I always make sure that I upload new episodes on there,

but we are available on every streaming platform. I mean, every streaming platform. And you can watch

the video episodes on YouTube, but soon I will be transitioning to a different platform. So

we'll see about that. But yeah, I'm everywhere and you can Google me.

I'll pop up. I love it. Well, thank you so much for, I know how busy you are between

family and work and business.

And as an entrepreneur's job is never done.

So thank you so much for joining me.

The rest of you, thank you so much for tuning in.

Check, check us out for new episodes

every Thursday morning at 7 a.m.

Make sure you check out Gabrielle Carruthers,

everything she's working on.

She's an absolute gem.

Thank you.

You are a permanent, you are,

you are a friend of the show.

I hope we get to stay in touch.