57. Why Withholding Your Album From Streaming Might Be the Move, with Rob Tait

let's be frank about the arts and commerce.

This stuff costs money, and I know it's freaking great,

and you even said so.

And I guess it's my audacity to be like,

I'm not going to let you have it in terms of streaming or whatever.

I know this is good. I want this to be an experience for you.

And over time, I'll release the next singles and what have you.

But something I think that is panning out is I've told people

like I'm not putting it all out on streaming and people are automatically like buying the records

which is really nice that's really cool

today on loves music rob tate returns i interviewed rob on episode 14 he had just finished the album at

the end of the world and was doing work with a band called cordelia blue well rob is back with

a brand new album dear light keeper which is an absolute masterpiece check out our full conversation

up next rob tate bro album album number two man you you came on here for episode 14 now here we

are this is going to be episode i believe 56 or 57 dude you did you did an album in less than i think

it was less than a year right yeah we put the record fully out in october of 2024 and then i i

got stir crazy and this is summarizing it but essentially we started recording the next record

in October of last year.

And honestly, it's the quickest turnaround

I've ever had for an album.

We finished it in

beginning of,

no, end of March, and then we printed, and we're here.

Oh my gosh.

Well, it's so good.

I love comparing the two.

I love that the two happen close enough

in my experience with them

to actually hold the two next to each other

and have two very unique experiences with both.

First, talk to me

about the title, Dear Lightkeeper.

I'm trying to find the parallel in the album, and it's not landing for me.

What does the name mean?

So what didn't happen was we recorded the whole record.

Originally, we had 13 tunes that we recorded, and we narrowed it down to 11 just because vinyl size.

And we were going track by track.

The titles, they don't encapsulate the whole thing.

They're great titles, but they don't encapsulate.

So we went lyric by lyric by lyric.

Nothing's like encapsulating the whole thing, which is, I guess, on me.

So we started like just brainstorming.

And my designer of the record, Lisa Letito,

we were like brainstorming different things we could do for the record.

Originally, the front cover was supposed to be a package,

like a look, and it was going to be like,

you know how you have like those old parcels with the twine going across?

That was the original design.

And I didn't have it because I just figured it just felt like,

like one of the songs in the record is called Postcard.

It felt like I was sending something to somebody

and trying to create this community.

And what I found was we just didn't have anything.

So anyway, Lisa suggested,

why don't you make a bunch of letters,

write a letter for each person

that each song is about on the record,

or each topic you can write towards a topic,

like send a letter to different things.

Because each song on the record

has either a purpose,

like a thing I'm writing towards,

or a person I'm, or thing.

I get that.

A group of people.

So essentially, I told myself, okay, I'm going to just do it as fast as I can.

Now think about it because I want it to be as natural as possible.

And in one of the songs, I wrote this poem letter called Dear Lightkeeper.

And here, if you give me a second, I can even pull it up.

But essentially, what had happened was I wrote it and I sent it off.

And Lisa goes, this one feels special.

And I'm like, I totally agree.

I don't know why.

I love your name, yeah.

Yeah, so essentially, we just kind of brainstormed.

I was like, is that the name of the record?

And she's like, I think it is.

In fact, here's the poem.

I have it right here.

When night and the moon hides in spite, thank you for being the light.

Mites travel lost out of sight, thank you for being the light.

When they weep from their plight, pray for God in their fright.

Thank you for doing what's right.

When the night winds excite from the walls of the white.

Thank you for being the light.

Thank you for being the light.

And it just encapsulates, it's this thing.

When I started writing the record, I didn't know what it was.

I had a few tunes, but I didn't know what it was.

So I'm brainstorming.

I'm trying to think like, well, what am I trying to say?

Like I put out this last record and I, and it did well.

And like a couple of tunes, like you can have like over 50,000 streams.

One has like 250,000 streams.

It's really nice.

And it means a lot, but I kept finding like,

I have this still had this hole in my chest and I'm like,

why is this not doing the thing that I thought it would?

It's getting some love.

You know, I'm not, you know, touring big yet.

Like some of my contemporaries, but what's this thing?

So I dove.

I just started writing and I didn't know what it was.

And eventually four or five tunes kind of came to the bubble to the top.

And essentially I was looking for, and this is boiling it down.

I was looking for community.

I was looking for people who felt the same way as I did in terms of being hopeful, bringing joy or being light keepers to one another.

And that's what I think the poem came from.

I think it really did come from just let's try to be a light to one another.

And the poem was written towards the one song, Have You Seen Me Out There?

Or Have You Seen Me Out?

Which is like one of the epics in the record.

And it kind of goes on.

Thank you for it's essentially a letter to people that guide other people through their lives or in their light.

You know, good parenting, good family matriarchs, people guiding people and also telling people that we need to be there for each other.

We need to be the hope, the light for one another.

I love that as a title now.

Now that I have the context, that makes perfect sense.

And there is a certain sense of community.

I felt like at the end of the world, here's the comparison.

If at the end of the world was a journal, Dear Lightkeeper is a newspaper.

That was a very intimate inward look at yourself, almost like uncomfortably personal.

You even said in the interview, we're going to tell the truth on this one.

So here's a very intimate look at you.

Now that you've kind of like purged these feelings and these emotional stories, you're

like, okay, now I'm going to paint something for you guys to consume.

And that's what Dear Lightkeeper is.

It's like your love letter to the community almost, or a thankful, a thank you letter to the community, or this is the album that I'm making deliberately.

At the end of the world was the album that I couldn't not make.

You know what I mean?

If that makes sense.

That's interesting that you bring that up.

I, at the end of the world, definitely was an inward look.

Not to, not to say that this one isn't.

There are a couple ones that I'm still fighting something.

Yeah.

Whether I know what it is or not.

Wrestling.

I'm not sure.

We're always coming.

Well, you're an artist, you know, you'll write something.

and then two years later be like uh that's what i'm saying yeah i get it yeah yeah but like in a

way my chest or or my mind i i was reaching out to be like we all feel this way right yeah

yeah and and essentially like this is something that to to listen to if you're like lost and

because i would have loved something like that in fact there is one record that whenever i was

lost, I always listen to.

It's Damien Rice's

favorite

Twisted Fantasy? Hold on.

Now I'm blanking on the name as soon as I'm on a podcast.

Of course.

It's like, great, now I'm not going to remember.

The bright lights are on.

This Damien Rice record, my favorite

Faded Fantasy, I would listen to all the time

if I was down.

I would always come back to it.

It's such a phenomenal record.

If you haven't listened to it, please go check out this album.

I wanted to write something

that a filled this hole in me you know i'm not even sure that i did but that was like attacking

something but also just something that other people can enjoy and it can be it could be like a

an experience for themselves instead of like the last record like it was kind of for me

and you know and also for others but like this one this one's for kind of for everybody and that's

how it comes across um it's weird when you talk about that hole right because i because you never

really know if it's personal or x the source of the void is it personal like something you're

missing internally or some kind of like worldly validation we always talk about that like i

shouldn't need the validation but it still feels really good oh it's about absolutely and i think

that you find that with every artist that you bring on here it's like you know we do write for

ourselves but there's a bit of us that love the validation i mean like yeah but but i think the

thing that I'm learning is I maybe I am 36 and I don't know I'm starting to realize is that I don't

need certain people's validation expect especially if I don't like agree with who they are as people

yeah that makes sense you know like and maybe not maybe I write something for somebody I don't agree

with and maybe it changes their mind about who they are which is rare but I'll take it uh but

the thing is is one of the things I wanted to write about and the topics I wanted to write about

and I wanted to reach people that were like-minded

about the whole thing.

And when you say like-minded,

you mean from a artistic level,

from a social level?

What do you mean when you say like-minded?

I wrote the record.

It's trying to reach people that

wanted to be hopeful or were hopeful.

People that,

I'm trying to reach that person

that has been trying so hard

to make something happen, like keep your family together,

keep a marriage together,

and if I can be a little light for somebody,

I'll take it.

If I can get somebody who's like a,

if I can help,

instead of, because like,

the last record is nice, and to make albums is great,

to tour and to perform is great,

but to make something that helps,

I think that's beautiful,

and that's something I really wanted to try making

with this record,

A, to help the community of people that are hopeful.

It also inspired a little hope in myself.

And I'm not saying I'm not trying to reach everybody.

And we all are.

We're all trying to reach everybody.

And I do want to say, I'll admit it.

Everybody wants the satisfaction of getting the love and the praise.

But if I can help anybody with one song.

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

From an artistic standpoint, I think that you have,

I call them layups and jump shots, right?

You certainly know what you do well.

And so the people that really liked

At the End of the World,

there's stuff on this album for them.

But then you're doing some really interesting things.

Like you have a tune called Back to the Bottom,

which is like this kind of like rambling,

kind of dingy, westerny, just really cool tune.

And the end of You and I, the duet,

Chef's Kiss, you know?

Thank you.

And then what you took like a jump shot, right?

You got this bluesy tune on there called Nickels and Dimes.

And I'm like, oh, this is a jump shot.

Like, it's about one step outside of the comfort zone.

You're actually singing with a distortion on your voice.

And I'm like, nailed it.

Like, was that?

Thank you.

Because it's a little outside of what you do.

Like, were you a little bit uncomfortable when you were recording it?

Or were you like, I got this?

No, I wasn't uncomfortable recording it.

Here's what I was uncomfortable doing.

I had never written from a character's perspective.

I'm trying to think like a screenwriter these days.

It makes it fun.

I can actually say things.

For example, Jack Black, he loves

to take on

characters that he necessarily

isn't because then he could say things he wouldn't be able

to say as himself.

For me, I was having such a rough

time hitting wall after wall after

wall in my life, in the industry,

in everything else. I wanted

to write from the other side of the perspective.

When you

listen to the record, it comes out soon

physically.

Nickel and dime is from the perspective of a manager, whether it be like music or Hollywood or whatever, written from their perspective, talking to the person that just got to town and giving them hope, but also taking away, like in the sense of like, but first thing first is my 10%.

and hear all the things we're going to do

and you can feel

the

stabbing in the back

or even just like the

ulterior motives

so in a way it was an

exercise but

after I wrote it I was like this is cool

I don't know what this is

and I brought it to the band and I said I hear it

as like a shuffle

and none of my music

I don't have a shuffle on any record or anything that's like

swinging.

In a sense, I am playing like a swing

of a bass groove

from Jazz Idiom, but I wanted to make it

more dark and dusty

Americana, and I was able

to do that with the guys, the guys

and girls in the band.

And the minute we figured

out that's the bass line I want

and this is like the vibe,

we were off to the races. That one we recorded

I think two or three times, it was like, it feels

great and i played the vocal yeah times and it sounds i'm so happy like that one like you said

it's a jump shot it was a little outside of uh what i've done before it's not outside what i've

done in my life got it yeah so in a sense you're right like this i'm trying something different

from the character writing aspect and maybe people will get it maybe they don't but in essence it's

a story of a manager like promising all these things you go through the storyline here's what

We're going to go to the rich people, try to get this, and we're going to put a hooker on your arm and do all this shit.

And then in the last verse, essentially, we get to the point like, oh, you're not hot shit anymore.

I'm dumping you.

Oh, there's a gorgeous girl just gone off the bus.

I'm going to go after that.

And everybody knows you're going to get nickel and dimed and pay for all this shit and to realize that, oh, it doesn't matter.

They're going to hose you anyway.

Yeah, I love it.

Yeah, it's a really cool tune.

So I know I'm talking a lot of the songs I'm referencing in the top half of the album.

And I told you before we spoke, I was like, there's a point where the album goes from this is really good to like brilliant.

And the moment for me when it hit is the song All My Friends.

One of my biggest fears in life is getting old.

Yes, somebody what they're afraid of.

80% of people say death.

Maybe one or two percent will say poverty.

And I'm in like this weird piece where it's like I just don't want to get older.

You know what I mean?

I would trade everything I have

to live the rest of my life

in the body I have now, right?

And then you have that song, All My Friends.

Do you want to get faded?

Do you want to invite your friends out

and talk about how you guys used to go out together?

And I'm just like,

put a bow on it, handed it to me.

I'm like, I swear he wrote that song for me.

You know what I mean?

Well, you're making me two up.

Yeah, that was my tune.

That's when the album became mine.

This is my album now.

I love that. Thank you for sharing that.

Because we wrote it for the last record, and it didn't work.

And I couldn't figure out why.

And then Dispatch, it was like one of the last days of recording the full band.

And I was still like, I don't know if it's going to fly.

Because I know from the same perspective as you,

it's like I missed this thing I had, and I'm worried about now that I'm living,

it's gone, you know?

And I reference a few things that are true and some that aren't.

because thank god for rhyming schemes right but but essentially words in there yeah

yeah yeah like uh i was able to throw on like the cat skills in there because i had a few friends

that grew up over there but essentially i we recorded it and i was just like okay thank god

because what so real quick let's take a quick turn i did a thing about drawing funds for this

next record on this uh this this uh website called give butter and one of my patrons who's a dear

friend had heard me play this song every time that i she came to hear me play out and she's like you

have to record this i was like i don't know it just doesn't work and when we recorded it with

the full hand i was like okay this might this might work and it's like it's always the songs

you've probably heard this a billion times it's always the songs you don't think yeah they're

they're all starfax that people connect with the most

because you're not thinking about it as much

I put my soul

into that song

thinking that it'll be really nice for the diehard

fan to find

over time it's proven to be

one of the goats of the record

and I wasn't expecting that

you know

so

it had to go on the record

and I was nervous as hell about it

and I'm so thrilled that it's

become like yours

that's exactly what I wanted yeah man dude really good project man front to back I mean

and the whole and from a mixing and engineering point man it's it's the the quality is there

the polish is there the creativity is there um it's it's such a it's it seems like such like the

logical next step in the progression of who you are as an artist at the end of the world it's like

well what's he going to do next oh that makes sense you know and and now it's like and now

we're all just sitting here with beta breath like dude what's he going to do for the third act you

You know, we're going to enjoy this for a while.

You don't have to talk about the next album, but let's enjoy it for a while.

Well, yeah, I got ideas, but I just got the vinyl pressed.

You're a marinated dude.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

I put it up there just so I could be here.

Yeah.

I got it right here.

Yeah.

Yeah, there we go.

I got the record right here.

I like that.

It was shot in the Wissahick, you know the Wissahick and Trail?

Yep.

In Philly?

this was shot right off the trail

this giant tree was there and we're like

that is gorgeous

I don't know what that's going to do

and then whether you have a

a deity

or a god

or believe in the universe

we set up

I had to bring the

I'll tell the story

see this desk

yes

so we had to bring that into the field

yeah

telling my wife that we were doing that yeah she just thought she was coming off her photo shoot

we get to the car she looks she looks in the car what's that yeah just all right good

we get in the car and she and she looks in the car she's like oh no

essentially had to um we had to bring this desk into this field she was a trooper man but as soon

as the images came up she was like oh i see i see what you're going for but there was a moment

there i was like oh i have to buy you off of sushi or something because you're pretty good

yeah you know what i'm gonna be involved in this in this excursion oh yeah and he's actually like

oh just so cool yeah i mean yeah but you know everything to bring out into this field including

all the knickknacks like if you look at the cover there's like all sorts of like knickknacks and

things we need to look natural so we have this giant box yeah julian yeah this giant box

that evening i'm telling you like i was bringing up like your deity or whatever

somebody or something opened the heavens and the sun just came right through the clouds and

landed on this street and i'm telling you you couldn't have painted a picture better

and it was it was it was a magical moment like my lisa was doing the photos just like

like the music yeah yeah i always like to know what was like that font take me through like the

end of the album ritual like the moment when you were like the album's done was it like your last

listen all the way through was it when you recorded the last song i just want to be in that room with

you when you were like it's finished my process is a little different than others in the sense

because i'm playing drums and singing both times we've we've recorded the vocals and the drums

separately so i usually with my records i have three to three to five days of recording the band

and that's like the the baseline okay or the beat or whatever but that's that's the baseline and you

record everything on top, which is like harmonies,

vocals, and everything else.

So I think the very last

thing I did,

actually, it would have been the vocals and all my friends and me.

At the very end, there's a harmony

thing that goes,

in the park, after

dark. And I was like, oh, that's pretty cool.

And then I did the harmony, and I sat there

and I kind of stared at the

at all the tracks.

I was like, I think

it's done. And then I listened through everything.

It was a moment of realization.

I didn't realize it was done, but it was done.

There was nothing else to add.

Well, there was one tiny thing I was hoping to get in,

but it wouldn't have worked out timing-wise.

But when I was sitting there and listening to the record,

I was just, don't need to add that.

And then it was basically, I don't know if you do this as an artist,

do you find that when you're in the adding process,

like, oh, I can add this and I can add that.

My new favorite thing is

cutting things

that are extraneous.

Why?

You're just doing it because you don't want it to be done.

It's like the end of...

You ever see the behind the scenes of Lord of the Rings?

The Return of the King movie?

I nerd out on a Lord of the Rings.

Okay, but at the end

they're doing this one shot at the last

thing that

Elijah Wood has to do

and they just keep doing it over and over again.

Everybody's realizing it's the last thing.

I didn't have that. I had

like a, oh,

and hands off.

Pencils down, hands off. I think it's done.

Honestly, I sent it to

Mixing, and honestly, it was a

really nice reprieve, because I've

been stressing about this album for so

long.

The sense of completion,

whether you want to do the analogy of

I wrote the letter and it's complete,

here you go.

It was beautiful.

and then Todd at Cambridge Sound

did such an amazing job

engineering, mixing, and mastering

this record all by himself

he's a sweetheart too and he just

it's beautiful

yeah, I'm so happy

and I got to work with all my friends

yeah, you should be proud of this project man, it's really good

yeah, I'm really thrilled

it kind of reminds me of one of my favorite

sayings, some songs you finish, some songs

you stop working on, how do you know the difference

there's no difference

yeah yeah you just had you yeah yeah you have to it's like the it's the thesis done like you have

to almost boil it down like do i want to like like add this extra little no it's the thesis done

which is like what's the point the point is the story i'm not like one thing that we could talk

about is i am not an athletic singer okay i understand that i'm not a um like a runny

insane

bell Adam Lambert. I know what I am.

I'm a storyteller, and I

come up with really good melodies.

The point of the whole record is

the idea done.

Being able to communicate everything. Good. Hands up.

You're done. Cool. I like that.

Don't add shit for the sake of adding

shit, but I'm sure other people feel the opposite

way, and then they go crazy, and then they cut back,

but when you're

done you're done rick rubin says if you're comfortable enough to share with your friends

album it's done the song is done um i guess i guess that's about there i mean i can definitely

needle up my stuff too long but it's only because i didn't get there yet you know like i've definitely

i've definitely came out with like baseline melody track percussion and i'm like i don't know man i'm

about to just throw some ad libs on this thing and it's done you know and that's and there's no

second guessing you know what i mean so that's where you are in the process you're like everything's

minus like the the uh the bow on top stuff no no i'm talking i'm talking about like as an example

um you know like there's times when it's like i have like four or five like three or four elements

and i'm like i don't know man like it feels done and when i feel that it's always like no second

guessing it's like when i forget that feeling it's like it's so it's so certain you know like almost

like the song just wrote itself and it doesn't need me though it doesn't need me in the way anymore

we both know people that are so detail oriented they could work on this stuff forever i'd

One of them's in my family.

Oh, okay.

I know what you're talking about.

Shout out, Seth.

Believe me, I'm Pope.

This stuff's going to be really good.

I actually heard some newer stuff the other day.

Here's a question for you.

How do you think this album has changed you

from the decision to do the album

or whenever you, you know, from the first note

till finish?

What have you learned?

What have you taken away?

What have you learned about yourself?

I learned that nothing is made solo.

I've learned that my life, every good thing that's happened in my life has been a collaboration.

And I think that acknowledging it has been so good for me, selfishly.

But there are people in music or art or whatever that say,

I did this whole thing myself, and it's my ideas and everything.

It's like, that's cool.

The thing I've learned in songwriting,

because I did Chloe White with Emily Drinker and Sarah Gross,

I learned a lot from both of them,

in essence of how they write,

and also I would pitch an idea,

and they would take it and run with it in a place I never thought of.

And the band, which, let me just shout them out real fast.

The core band of Rob Tape Band is Will Currier,

Eric McGarry, Nicole Sophos, and Adam Flicker.

Those are my, that's my crew.

and I present something

an idea and we play through it

and what would happen

it happens every time

and it's always magical

is they start talking to themselves

like okay you do this

and then I'll do that

and we'll play the counterpart like the harmony

and I'll just sit back and kind of watch

it kind of feels like I have no control over the thing

but if I let the thing grow

without my hands in it

it becomes something I never could have done

and it's always better

Almost always.

I love that.

In terms of the record being about

community, the working of

the record was also about the collaboration

of community.

And also, I keep forgetting,

he's such an integral part to everything.

Todd over at Cambridge Sound.

Todd McCoy, he's

a bass player, guitar player, drummer,

and he plays for like a thousand bands.

He runs the ship over at that

recording studio, and he heard these

tunes, and he helped

massage it. He wasn't producing,

but he was like, he would have little

small suggestions here and there. But

dude, the community and

the collaboration is

the whole reason this thing exists.

This cover was not my

idea.

That's what it was.

That turned out to be one of those things.

I'm telling you feel the same way.

Every art song here should feel the same way.

It's that the best ideas

usually

even Quentin Tarantino I'm sure you've seen these these uh interviews because we kind of have the

same interest he talks about like you present the vision you don't have the vision you present what

the idea of the vision is and you hire the best people to create that vision for you yeah I feel

like we've done that absolutely absolutely I'm thrilled I'm thrilled with how everything kind

of came together especially some of the guests that came in and popped on there's did you make

all the way to the end. It's okay if you didn't.

There's a

harmonica solo at the very

end in the song called Lullaby

for Roads, which is written for my nephew.

There's a harmonica player named Bob

Beach. He's played

for everyone.

And he's

a Philly local,

I forget where he's from, but he's nearby.

But he's an incredible harmonica

player, and he's playing for everybody.

And just collaborating with somebody that was outside

of my scope of friends,

i've learned so much and here's a little tidbit of something i am working on because of how amazing

the collaboration was that's pretty much what one of the whole next records is going to be

the songwriting the the recording we're probably going to do it here in my shoebox studios yeah

but really thrilled yeah that's that is that is really cool man um

the same don't you find that though yeah nobody would just collaboration and stuff oh yeah

collaboration and stuff yeah yeah man it's it's it's it's always like it kind of not sound

quaint it takes a village you know like you know like people people yeah yeah absolutely man um

something you said on the last interview you said when you were talking about the end of the world

you said there's songs that hurt which i thought is like a very specific thing to say is there

songs on this album that hurt?

Postcard is a song

on the second side of the vinyl or the

back half of the record and

I don't have kids.

There's a song by Chris Stapleton where he talks about

his daddy doesn't play anymore

and you go through the whole song and there's

a twist right at the end where daddy's

actually passed away, where his daddy's actually

passed away. Not that he doesn't believe in God anymore

but you don't know what's happening throughout the

whole song. So I wanted to write

something where there was kind of a twist at the end

and i and i'm i'm writing it i'm writing it and essentially the song is about i'm sending a

postcard to someone i love and the whole time you're hearing like oh it's somebody that like

you love like a partner something like that and you go through the whole tune and right at the end

where there's like a break the band isn't playing i'm just singing i wrote like the the first half

fine and then all of a sudden i'm crying like why am i weak like tearing up and i realized i'm

actually the the letter is to my daughter you know my daughter like so i don't have a daughter right

um i have a puppy but uh that's not the same and then something kind of went in my heart and in

that part is very hard to sing without tearing up every time now so to hear it and also to

But, you know, I don't know if I have kids, you know, that we haven't finished that dialogue.

But there was a part of me when writing that song and performing it that it does.

It breaks my heart a little.

You know, and there was one time where I was performing it in the Mermaid Inn, which is not far from where I live up in a German town.

And Emmett Droning runs this performance space there once a month.

and playing the song and I stopped playing and just sang the verse.

And there's like a guy right in front of me weeping.

And I'm like, I want to be right there with him.

Be like, I agree with you.

Like, I'm sad too.

This breaks my heart.

So to postcard is beautiful, especially all the harmonies and everything,

but like to write it and to realize what it was, was very difficult.

Is there something that you've accomplished either in the,

in the recent, in your recent history or recently

that you've always dreamed of when you first started doing music

that actually came to pass.

And maybe it's something you might even just take for granted now.

But something that you've always wanted,

and you actually achieved it.

It's something you never thought would happen for you

when you first started, and now you've actually done it.

Put a record out on vinyl, now it's two.

One thing that I achieved that didn't fill the hole,

that people might be envious of,

and I can now, from the other side,

got to be like, doesn't matter,

is the song Wishing Well on the last record

got on a really good playlist

and it got me a lot of love and a lot of traction

online and everything else.

Recently, and this is really,

it gets funnier, I promise, I got dropped off the playlist

because my time had expired

and my listeners went down to not much.

So, the thing

that I learned that I achieved

and also realized didn't matter is I got

the big playlist, I got the big thing on streaming

we're told to want, love, and need

and desire, and the

numbers look really cool.

it doesn't matter yeah it doesn't it doesn't translate to fans it looks pretty sick right

doesn't translate to anything that's why like when people say like oh should i do like this might be

inside baseball for anybody who like puts out music like uh submit um playlists uh playlist

push all this other stuff he's like i mean yeah but you're not going to get the thing that you want

which is the community thing, which is why I'm so gung-ho about this.

It didn't do the thing that we were told it would do.

So in a sense, I was successful, and I've had to change my definition of success.

And I'm sure you have too.

Yeah, I mean, that would probably be my follow-up question.

You know, like how has your viewpoint or perspective changed from 2024 till now?

You know, I feel like our version of success is almost like its own living thing.

and with more data and more experience that dream dream in quotes you know kind of changes you know

and either it becomes more realistic or maybe your dream catches up to your earlier perception

you're like oh it's not as hard as i thought it was or maybe it's harder than i thought it was

you know um so how did how has your perspective changed from just in the last couple years i mean

this is i mean this is about two years or two and a half years of you just like working on two albums

yeah the dream is different i thought that by getting success on streaming or digital success

would be the the thing that would fill the hole or the thing that i wanted and it's not

the thing that i want is the community and and the collaboration i've said this those words a bunch

but essentially it's like my new dream is to tour meet people connect with people for me i find that

success is actually just the connection with people. If you're in this game for the money,

you're not, it's not going to go well. No. You know, before it was about maybe a little bit more

about the fame and the money and everything else. And realizing now is like, that's not

what this business is. It was a struggle. So the dream has definitely changed. And, you know,

maybe I'm getting older, I'm realizing, okay, this is not, you know, this is not the thing.

And also, the cards are kind of stacked against you when you're independent and, you know, against these major labels that, you know, they have funding and backing everywhere that you could possibly think of and, you know, fake this, fake that.

And they fabricate someone becoming huge.

And I really looked up the people like Chris Jacobs or Jeffrey Martin or people that are doing it on their own.

And they're not necessarily huge in the sense of the media sense of huge.

but they connect to a lot of people and i and i've in just just by changing that mindset i found a

lot more joy and that's helped me be a light for some others and i'm hoping that the music does the

same for some other people interesting yeah i used to ask this question on some of the earlier episodes

um actually i think i actually mentioned it on your episode i said i've always been fascinated

with that middle ground between you know starving artist and somebody international sensation right

And I was like, there has to be a model where you can just make 55, 75, $90,000 a year, you know, pedestrian, a pedestrian amount of money. And I was like, still the wrong thing. And the reason why it's the wrong thing is because it's 10 times easier to make 50, 60, 70 grand cutting grass, waiting tables than it is to make music, you know?

and I asked somebody who actually was further along in their journey.

And they were like, look, the business model is the same.

You make great music.

You connect with people.

You touch lives.

And eventually the checks come in.

It was like there's not like a $70,000 model and a $70 million model.

It's the same thing.

Same thing at scale.

But it's the same thing, man.

You make the best music you possibly can, as genuine and authentic as you can.

You get as good as you can on your instrument.

Play where you can.

Do the administrative stuff, you know, wash, rinse, repeat.

Oh yeah, by the way, wait five years, you know, do the right thing, but then do the right

thing for about six, seven years, you know, and it's the same model.

And so like to echo what you said, the minute you start focusing on like a monetary bottom

line, man, you miss it.

You know, you missed the point, you know?

Yeah.

People can feel that.

We'd all love to have the big check, you know what I mean?

And it'll come.

but like not it doesn't preclude you know connections bunch of hard work great freaking

music you know what i mean it comes later you're absolutely right your eye has to be the art your

eye has to be in the art it can't sure the money's nice and it's also like how long can you stay on

the treadmill that's true too yeah i mean it's definitely i think marathon i sprint for sure

yeah like like if you look at even ray she was on a record label she had technically

yeah yeah and and then she got shelved yeah and and she made music and never saw the light of day

and the minute she left her record label it was like you know yeah meteor yeah

your app your your path could take you anywhere and it might take you nowhere but you still have

to do the ride. Yeah. And I think, well, I think that is also how you do get that really rich,

organic following is like in the trenches, you know, the people, the people that saw you at like

the 50 seater and the hundred seater, they keep coming out. They had the intimate experience. I

think that the, that's the foundation for like your massive following, you know what I mean?

And if you try to like jump that level and be like, I just want to play the bigger venue,

or I just want to, I just want that one huge video or something like that. I think you're

going to bypass a very important step theorizing but i think that that is a very important step

yeah there's no there's no uh cutting the line or skipping ahead you got to go through all the

things everybody else did and whoever that was it's very insightful because you're all you know

you have to you have to do every step unless you get lucky i mean what are the chances though

i mean you have to get lucky you have to get lucky young you know so we might be

that picture might have sailed for us um i mean that's not necessarily true you don't think so

like especially it depends on the the genre like especially in like country like a lot of

country folks don't get bigger till later and it's because people see the wisdom in their eyes

probably or something are they or do or do we just not see their climb you know have they have

they been just doing it for 15 20 years and we just didn't know about it they could be both i

I mean, they say every overnight success story is about 10 years in the making.

You know, like Sturgill Simpson got his Grammy at 37, which is like dinosaur in music years,

you know, but 37 is like fine.

Like, I'd love to get a Grammy at 37.

Do you remember what happened the next year?

Well, he got the Grammy before Sound and Fury came out, right?

Right.

He got the award, and then the next year he wasn't invited.

And so he was playing outside of the arena.

No.

with the Grammy in this guitar case

for like an hour

to make a mockery of them

I can't remember if it's the CMAs

or if it's the Grammys

I think it's the Grammys but I'll have to double check

but still funny

you know

the Grammy might not even be the thing

you know the Grammy looks super cool

but if you look at like a Dave Matthews

that dude hasn't won

shit

Bob Marley hasn't won anything

he got nominated five times but didn't win anything all these huge people i think is that

political i i want to believe that it has a lot to do with merit and it's not political

but the more i hear about it that it is political um do you have any background on that i have my

beliefs yeah yeah i'm a pretty good share with somebody else i guess my point would be you don't

see a lot of indies winning these things.

Yeah.

And if they do, they come from money.

True.

Allegedly.

I think there's a thing about the marketing dollars and also it's only, you know, every

business is who you know, but I do think there is a bit of who you know in that situation.

I'll subscribe to that.

They say that the world rewards audacity and not potential.

Can you give me an example where you had to kind of like step out and do something almost kind of like against the grain or like untraditional and it like panned out for you?

I'm doing it right now.

I'm putting out the record.

Physical copies only on May 8th, but I'm not putting it out on streaming right away unless you've backed me in that Gigbutter campaign.

So like the record comes out on May 8th, but it's not all coming out and streaming right away.

I'm taking my GD time.

it's like let's be frank about the arts and and commerce like this stuff costs money and i know

it's freaking great and you even said so yeah um and i guess it's my audacious my audacity to be

like i'm not gonna let you have it in terms of streaming or whatever it's like i know this is

good i want this to be an experience for you and like over time i'll release the next singles and

what have you but like something on i think that that is panning out is i've told people like

I'm not putting it all out on streaming and people are automatically like buying the records,

which is really nice. That's really cool. So I think that there is something to be said. There

is streaming fatigue for a number of reasons, but I also think people are craving experiences.

Like they're craving, like, like I'm going to put a record on, I'm going to turn my phone off and

I'm just going to listen and like take in something, you know, that's good. And so in

In terms of audacity, I'm in the middle of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm super stoked about it.

Are you doing anything that's kind of against the grain?

Nah.

I mean, my podcast is pretty, like, not traditional.

I mean, you can say that the talking head stuff is, like, kind of played out.

But, I mean, at the end of the day, I really just wanted a body of work, man.

Like, you know, in 10 years, to have 90 to 100 episodes just talking to my buddies and musicians that I respect.

you know people from all over the world i mean i just interviewed a girl from greece and she's

incredible you know i wouldn't be able to do that's really cool she's not taking my dms unless i have

a podcast so well here's the thing in the immediate future right what can we expect in terms of like

performances like if i want to um i definitely got to come out i believe did you already have the

record release show no it'll be on may 8th at the falzer club in philadelphia um so are do you

Are you going to be popping up anywhere else

throughout the summer if we want to get plugged in?

I haven't announced it, but I think

I'm going to do something funny, which is

obviously times are hard

for a lot of folks.

I'm trying to figure out how to do it, if I have to do licenses

or whatnot, but I think I'm just going to do

a tour pop-up

where I

announce I'm

going on the road, but I'm not

doing venues.

A, because I have no history in them, but B,

also do

house shows, donation-based outside stuff,

I'm in the middle

of figuring that out.

I don't have anything to announce, but it's something

that I'm trying.

Also, I'm in

another wonderful group called Cordelia Blue.

You've even come to see us perform.

I'll be performing

with those guys a lot.

We're getting ready to go in

and do another record.

You busy man, man.

We're all trying to make it right now.

Dude, you're doing stuff good too, man.

Very different from your stuff,

but I like the Kadoo Blue stuff.

It's really good.

Yeah, I mean, I got asked to join.

Excuse me.

I got asked to join,

and I've been having a blast since.

Like, we recorded that whole other record,

and then they asked me right at the end,

do you want to be with us?

I'm like, what?

I didn't mention this in the last podcast.

You didn't ask me 10 songs ago?

Yeah.

Yeah, I did.

18 songs.

I'm talking about it.

I'll share this. It's been an interesting

both a problem and a

fun thing. I had these two vehicles

Julia and I have to

love on them both but they have to kind of go in seasons.

Right now I'm getting ready to do my thing and I love this thing that I've made

and I'm putting it out and I'm also trying to make sure I give enough love to

the cordial group music and fam and and give both my time to both it's it's been a challenge but

i love having two different sides of the coin to play with and also i just started doing uh like a

jazz residency over at wm well it's malherent's sons in um fishtown it's like a really nice

restaurant i do jazz there every sunday that's cool yeah and that doing that and i record people

at my studio like i record drums for folks so i i have a lot of really different avenues where i'm

to like uh push and just do different things and so if you just follow me on instagram and be like

where's he going like you'll see me yeah good man i hear that everywhere yeah man that's well that's

cool if you don't do anything else i think anybody who loves good music and just appreciates like

rich composition um certainly go out and get the uh get get the vinyl i mean pay full price for the

vinyl um it's an experience i promise yeah yeah you you will not be disappointed i mean like like

you said shut the phone off put the vinyl on block everything out for 40 45 minutes you're you will

be different after hearing that entire album yeah or at least kind of act it like it like it's a

meditation exercise you know like breathe and just like listen to something different and um i'm i'm

uberly proud of this little world we've made.

And I couldn't have done it without my friends.

And I could not have done it without all the people in my life, including you.

Oh, thanks, brother.

So Julian Martinez from Houston said,

if you could see any band that's either no longer active or alive,

who would that be?

You could literally go see them tomorrow.

Because I have such a jazz upbringing,

I would want to see

Miles Davis' first

quintet, which includes

Miles Davis, John Coltrane,

Philly Joe Jones, Red Garland, and

Paul Chambers.

It's one of my favorite

eras of jazz and one of my favorite groups,

and I would love to see them in a club

just to see it

in person.

That's a good question. Did he have an answer?

Yeah, we went

back. His was the police. He's super

Like, uh, he's like, I'd like to see like prime police. Um, I think I answered, uh, like probably

like prime Sabbath, like we're talking like mid seventies Sabbath, like paranoid, like, yeah.

Yeah. We're going through the thick of it. Yeah. Yeah. If you could leave a question for the next

guest, unaware of, you know, sex, music style, age, um, what's a question I should ask the next

musician that comes on when writing, how often are you writing from a character's point of

view that isn't your own and do you have an example and watch it's going to be like a dj that doesn't

write any lyrics at all

my fourth album was that like i basically wrote it was called character it was like a double

entendre of character being a good person

and then just the characters in my life.

I wrote songs from

my old boss was a

bodybuilder, so I basically wrote a song

about lifting weights.

Weird stuff like that. It was fun.

I wrote a song about my pastor.

I wrote a song about, obviously, I think a girlfriend at the time.

I wrote a song about my daughter.

I wrote a bodybuilder one from

the first person.

Don't you write those way faster because you're like,

this isn't me.

You're not committed to an accurate narrative.

You're like, I'm just going to write the thing.

Yeah, that's awesome, man.

What is something that you're proud of?

Because obviously you're proud of this album, right?

So let's take music out of the equation.

I'm talking about Rob the Person.

What is something that you're proud of that has nothing to do with music?

My friendships.

My relationship with my wife.

I still need to work on these things.

I love my family.

And, you know, I love myself, which is something that I don't think we say to ourselves enough.

It might seem a little egotistical, but in a sense, hear me out.

No, we need to love ourselves.

I mean, I went through a long time where I didn't.

And I think I'm finally, like, patting myself on the back.

And not in, like, a braggy way.

I'm proud that I can actually say that, like, you know, I dig what I'm doing.

And I dig who I am.

And I'm proud of that.

I'm proud of my relationships with my community, my friends, my family.

And, you know, I might be a little close to my detriment, but I am very proud of that.

Yeah, man.

Yeah, it's something I heard somebody say something.

I forget the gentleman's name.

He said something similar to that on Chris Williamson's show.

He's like, I got to a point in my life where I could look in the mirror and be like, I'd

have a beer with him.

Yeah, that's something.

Yeah, man.

But I got to tell you, man, I have had so much fun, not just on this podcast, but just being

your friend, but also watching you grow as an artist. I've been your fan for God knows how long

and then just get to know you better and get to see you in like a lot of different lights and

wearing a bunch of different hats, man. And I want nothing but the best for you, obviously in music,

but just in life in general, man. Nothing would make me happier to know that, you know, you just

disappear for a little while. When you pop back up, all your dreams have come true. So I love you,

buddy. Thank you so much. I'm very proud of you. I can't wait to hear all the stuff you're cooking

enough. And hey, we shared the stage before, and

it's an honor and a privilege to share the stage

with you at any point.

And I love you, buddy. You too, man.

The rest of you, thank you so much for spending

time with us today on Love's Music. Take

care of yourselves. And if you enjoyed everything,

certainly you want to check out

Rob Tate's album, Dear

Lightkeeper. Check that out.

Grab the vinyl, because it's not going to be available on

streaming. And by all means, please, take care

of yourselves and each other. And love

yourself.