Why Do I Run From Relationships?

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Thank you. Hey, hey, I do part two. It's your celebrity mentor, Kelly Ben Simone. And I'm here with one of my favorite mentors from The Golden Bachelorette. It's Joan Vassos. Hi.

00:00:30
Speaker 2: It's been too long.

00:00:32
Speaker 1: They were going to chat a little bit about the sit-down convo that Jaina had this week with Shana Mochler, and it was a good one. If you haven't listened to that episode yet, pause right now, go listen to that episode, and then come back right here. Let's get started.

00:00:49
Speaker 2: I'm so excited to see you. And I'm going to see you in New York City on October, I think it's the 6th, for the Page Six Reality Awards.

00:01:00
Speaker 1: Oh, great.

00:01:01
Speaker 2: I'm presenting the award to you guys.

00:01:03
Speaker 1: No.

00:01:04
Speaker 2: To the Golden Life.

00:01:06
Speaker 1: I love that. I'm so excited. Yeah.

00:01:10
Speaker 2: So we have to get together and you have to tell me what you're wearing because I have no idea what to wear to this thing.

00:01:14
Speaker 1: Oh my God. We will definitely have a debrief and you have to come over. We have drinks and do all sorts of fun stuff.

00:01:19
Speaker 2: I would love to. I'm coming the day before.

00:01:21
Speaker 1: Oh my God. Okay, great.

00:01:22
Speaker 2: Okay. It's a date. It's a date. Okay. Let's get, let's start talking.

00:01:25
Speaker 1: So the trailer just came out today. Did you see it yet?

00:01:28
Speaker 2: I did.

00:01:28
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed.

00:01:29
Speaker 2: I've watched it like four times and I'm worried that some of the girls may have been mean to you.

00:01:33
Speaker 1: I mean, I just think it's so funny.

00:01:34
Speaker 2: I'm like, excuse me.

00:01:36
Speaker 1: I'm going to have.

00:01:38
Speaker 2: To come and beat them up.

00:01:39
Speaker 1: I'm kind of very polite, you know, but they don't like that.

00:01:42
Speaker 2: You are like the nicest. Okay, so you're the nicest person, but I also want to say you're like the nicest pretty person because a lot of times really beautiful women aren't nice to other women. And you are always so incredibly kind. You like break that mold and you give me faith in like women and that they can be nice to each other. And I worry about you when you're amongst other women that I don't think maybe are as nice as you are.

00:02:10
Speaker 1: Oh, Joe, you're so, well, I mean, we're having a really good time and I think you're going to be surprised by some of the things that happened and happens and happened, but you're, I mean, you're going to love it. Okay.

00:02:22
Speaker 2: Just, just humor me for a second. Cause I'm really obsessed with the show. Give me three words that you would use to describe the golden life.

00:02:31
Speaker 1: Spirited. Okay. Adventurous. Yeah. Heartfelt.

00:02:36
Speaker 2: I'm intrigued. I was intrigued already.

00:02:40
Speaker 1: Okay.

00:02:41
Speaker 2: I was already going to watch it, but now I'm really going to watch. So Adventurous is probably the one that I like the most about that one. So I'm dying to see what kind of adventures they have you guys on, because I think maybe at this age in our lives, I know I'm a little older than you, but some of the people that you're on the show with are my age. We don't care as much about what people think about us, so maybe we're a little more adventurous than we were when we were younger.

00:03:05
Speaker 1: Which I love. Yeah.

00:03:07
Speaker 2: Perfect.

00:03:07
Speaker 1: Were you familiar with Shana Moakler or Travis Barker before you heard this episode?

00:03:13
Speaker 2: So I remember them from like long ago. So, I mean, she's been in the news a ton and so is he. She's had like a lot of really kind of big relationships. She's been with a lot of men that are well-known. She's had babies with them. So I remember her, but she had kind of faded from my radar a little bit. I don't think that there's been anything super recent about And now she's kind of back in the news a little bit. So it's fun.

00:03:36
Speaker 1: And you know what?

00:03:36
Speaker 2: I always loved her. She has quite a style and she's had quite a history. And she's been on TV and she's bottled. And she's kind of gotten around. So she's an interesting lady. I like that she's back in the news.

00:03:48
Speaker 1: How about you?

00:03:48
Speaker 2: Did you remember her?

00:03:50
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I remember her. But I also remember her from the show. And I was just reintroduced to her by Shaina. And I just... We have so many questions, but my first thought out of the gate was just how knowledgeable she is about menopause.

00:04:11
Speaker 2: I know. I had no idea about this whole part of her life that she had this whole kind of interest in this medical background and supporting women and even supporting men in like a medical journey. And she seems so incredibly bright. And I love that when these beautiful women are also super smart. and pour their heart into something like that can help us.

00:04:33
Speaker 1: I think so too. And just, you know, her sharing her stories and Jenna sharing her story, you know, that just the more information that we can get out there about, you know, the iterations of menopause. I mean, my mother had a personal note. My mother had really, really bad menopause and I was always so scared. And she, as a result from bad menopause, she had severe migraines. And so my upbringing- Me too, by the way. Oh my God. Oh my God.

00:04:59
Speaker 2: I had one yesterday.

00:05:00
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. And I just remember a young girl, you know, in my, not young girl, but I was in my early teens. And I just could, would be like really, really, really excited and really jacked up. And then nothing. You couldn't talk to her for days. Yeah. She just couldn't go or, and it was just terrible as a young girl because, you know, I'm like, mommy, like what's wrong with my mom? Yeah. And I had this perfect picture of her because she was the perfect mom until her menopause and her migraines really took over and just were debilitating.

00:05:42
Speaker 2: I don't think people get how these hormones surging through our bodies and how much impact they have on us. So I had migraines starting when I went through puberty. I got my first migraine when I was 13 years old, and I've had them ever since. And they certainly, whenever there's like a weird surge in hormones. So I have four kids. When I was pregnant with my second daughter, or my second child, my first daughter, I had terrible migraines through that entire pregnancy and had to actually quit my work. I couldn't work. I got them every day. So like these hormones that she is really investigating and spending a lot of time finding remedies for, we used to just have to power through them. Like your mom had to power through it. I remember- coming down into the kitchen when I was maybe in middle school, and my mom would have her head in the freezer. And I'm like, Mom, what are you doing? She's like, I'm having a hot flash, and she'd be doing this with her bathrobe, and she'd have her head in the freezer, or she'd be walking outside in bare feet in the middle of winter, trying to cool down. I don't think people understand how severe these hormone-related, like all the things that, yeah, they're awful. They cause migraines, and the hot flashes are horrible. Sleeping is hard. I am so thrilled that There is a person that you can turn to and.

00:06:57
Speaker 1: Oh, hair loss. Like just. It happened as well. Sorry. I don't have to do. No, no, no.

00:07:02
Speaker 2: You were right. I, there are so many other things I wasn't even thinking about, but you're like the hair loss. Like how hard is that for a woman? Your hair is part of your identity. Yeah.

00:07:10
Speaker 1: But I mean, just the migraines. I'm so sorry that you go through that and that you went through that. Remember as a young girl, like just being like, what's wrong with my mom. Not understanding and not knowing and. even if she was like, oh, my period or whatever, that didn't resonate. I had no idea. I was like, oh, okay.

00:07:30
Speaker 2: We don't know. And terrible cramps and all that. Men have it so much easier. They have no idea the things that we have to deal with like once a month. I'm so happy I'm done with the whole darn thing.

00:07:39
Speaker 1: I know.

00:07:40
Speaker 2: It's a lot easier.

00:07:41
Speaker 1: I'll get them. But I just was like, I just was very, very, very impressed by her knowledge. Just to your point. I was like, whoa. I was like, okay, this is a podcast. Let's get started.

00:07:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, we dove right into that. And I had no idea that she had this passion and was doing that. We should probably tell people the name of her website or the name of her organization. Oh, yeah.

00:08:05
Speaker 1: What's it called?

00:08:06
Speaker 2: Hello Foxy. F-O-X-I, I believe. So it's with an I at the end because I did look it up the wrong way. And it provides so many services. And I mean, really, honestly, really, really good. And like, you know, good for her. She's branching out.

00:08:20
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that.

00:08:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was interesting.

00:08:23
Speaker 1: So what do you think about Shana sharing that she and Travis did a nesting situation after the divorce with their kids?

00:08:31
Speaker 2: So, so interesting. I've heard of that. Have you heard of that arrangement before? People doing that?

00:08:36
Speaker 1: I have. I'm Midwest. We don't have nesting.

00:08:38
Speaker 2: You're divorced, you leave, and you move on. You move on. I've never known anybody who has done it, but I have heard of it before. And I thought, what a wonderful thing to do for your kids if you can do it. Because how hard would it be? First of all, kids are probably going through the worst thing in their lives. Their parents are separating. They never imagined this was going to happen. You picture your life being perfect. You think you're always going to have both your parents. And all of a sudden, they're not going to be together anymore. But they're allowing you to stay in your home with your kids, your friends down the street. walking to your same bus stop, you know, in your same bed at night. I think that's such, you know, during that really hard year or two, if you can, you know, keep this going and allowing them, you know, the comforts of home, it's amazing. But can you imagine sharing a home with somebody that maybe you're not having an amicable divorce with?

00:09:31
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a pod, but if you saw my eyes right now, you would be like, whoa. And I've had a lot of Botox, but I'm telling you, my eyes are powerful.

00:09:40
Speaker 2: I can see expression. Hardly any, but a little bit. I'm with you. You can't see it in mine either. But yeah, I'm appalled too.

00:09:48
Speaker 1: I was like, I mean, I agree with you. I think it's beautiful. I just don't understand. I mean, if you're going to get divorced, there's so many other things that are associated. I just couldn't. see the person. I love my kids more than anything. I would do it for them. I just wouldn't be able to have someone that I needed to separate from permanently nesting in my house. I'd be like, nest elsewhere.

00:10:16
Speaker 2: I do feel like it's a very unique situation, which is probably why we don't hear it very much. Shana clearly had a really amicable divorce or separation with, um, with her ex and was able to maintain like a, cause I mean, you're not doing the kids any good if you're coming together and then fighting. So, um, but you, you got to imagine that maybe for some people has to do with money, that it's too hard to maintain different residences, or maybe they have to separate and sell the main home so they can actually separate. So, you know, I think there's a lot of things that play into it. Money certainly is one of the things, but being, you know, having, you can't, I can't imagine you, you know, having that kind of situation with somebody that you are really actively still fighting with or arguing with or having, you know, problems with the separation or the divorce or the agreement or, you know, how you're splitting the kids or the money or whatever. I could see any kind of turmoil will just be exasperated if you're coming to the house and they left the kitchen messy and didn't do the laundry.

00:11:17
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a trigger for me.

00:11:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too.

00:11:20
Speaker 1: So Joan, so my husband, my ex-husband is French and we just put up a wall between the two apartments because he traveled so much. The girls could see him when he came home, but he was not in the apartment. And it actually worked out really well for the kids because they didn't feel, they were like, daddy's home. They would go see him, have some blueberries and come home.

00:11:44
Speaker 2: That was, you had the perfect divorce situation. I think you may be the only person in the entire world. No, I actually know one other person whose father bought the house next door to them. And so they used to go back and forth, but you have like the perfect divorce situation, but I can't imagine most people being able to afford that, have two houses next door to each other.

00:12:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just was, I, you know, he just traveled and I understood the assignment. I, you know, I knew that he needed to be in their lives, but I also knew that I needed to have, Control. And privacy. Yeah. And control.

00:12:16
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:12:17
Speaker 1: I was going to say privacy, but control. Even more. Yeah. All of the above.

00:12:23
Speaker 2: And I can imagine that you didn't have to have a really strict agreement about custody because they kind of lived with you, it sounds like, and then visited him.

00:12:33
Speaker 1: Right. I just said to him, I said, just love the girls and everything's fine. That's it.

00:12:39
Speaker 2: Spend as much time as you can.

00:12:40
Speaker 1: Yes. And there was no expectations, so there was nothing to manage. Yeah.

00:12:45
Speaker 2: Perfect.

00:12:45
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Do you mean like, I was like, I've got the girls, like my dad's like, okay, the girls are going on a ski trip. Let's go pack them up.

00:12:52
Speaker 2: So did, do they, are they still really close with their father?

00:12:55
Speaker 1: Yes. Very.

00:12:57
Speaker 2: And does he still live in New York city or has he moved?

00:12:59
Speaker 1: He lives in New York and in Venice, but I think the reason that he is close to them and he's older is because there was, he didn't have any expectations. He didn't have, he just was like, you know, just go live your life and just, you know, be a good, be a good, parent when you can. Yeah, good. I mean, be a good father. Don't parent my kids. I'll parent my kids. Did I say that out loud?

00:13:22
Speaker 2: Nope, I didn't hear it.

00:13:24
Speaker 1: Oh, nope.

00:13:25
Speaker 2: What happens on I Do Part Two stays on I Do Part Two.

00:13:27
Speaker 1: Exactly.

00:13:39
Speaker 2: Okay, I have to ask you about, I loved the conversation that the two of them had about both Jana and Shana expressed regrets from their past relationships. And so Jana said, first of all, that even though she tried her hardest in her marriage, she wishes that she would have left sooner. And Shana kind of said the same thing, that she wishes she hadn't accepted this abusive treatment that she had in a previous relationship, not in her marriage, but in a previous relationship.

00:14:05
Speaker 1: Right.

00:14:06
Speaker 2: Do you have any regrets from a past relationship that you let it go on for way too long? Or do you think every relationship we have is part of the learning curve?

00:14:16
Speaker 1: And of course. I mean, my ex-husband got divorced. And then I met a guy that was younger than me, 10 years younger. And he was not the ideal human. And You know, it just was not exactly, you know, how I wanted it to be. And so we would break up and then we'd get back together and we'd break up. And, you know, at the time, too, in my defense, I was working. I was, you know, the editor of three magazines. Like, I was writing books. I had two young girls. And I just had so much on my plate that, you know, I kind of just let something– I kind of, like, let it go on. And didn't take control of it. And that was my fault. And I should have been the bigger person and said, this is not working out. We're never doing this again. But because I was so busy, I just kind of let things slide that shouldn't have. And so I empathize with her a lot. I mean, with Shana a lot. Because things just happen. You know, just life just happens. I know that sounds so cliche, but it just does. And, you know, it's so easy. For us to say now, wow, you know, we should have done this. We should have done that. But when you're in the middle of it, you're not thinking like that. You're like, oh, my God, my kids, my life. You know, I wasn't thinking about, like, relationship. I was just thinking about my kids and making money and just making sure that they had everything. Yeah. So– it's just, you know, we're in a different time now. You know what I mean? I do.

00:15:53
Speaker 2: I feel like it's so much easier. I feel like for me, I would stay in relationships longer than I should have because I thought, is this as good as it gets? Like, like even if I'm not a hundred percent happy, maybe if I'm 75% happy, I may never find this much happy again. So I should just stay in this because it's good enough. It's not bad. I'm like, I was never in an abusive relationship, but it was also in a relationship that maybe wasn't like so love filled or so like exciting or, Like I knew that there were red flags, maybe the way we resolve conflict or, you know, whatever it was. I stayed in too long because I just thought maybe this is all there is and I'm not going to find anything better.

00:16:31
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just so honest. And I just, I really, really respect you being open about that. And I think that's something that's natural. And I think that's something that happens all the time. I think that women just kind of feel like there are so many single women. That, you know, are trying to find love and, you know, myself included. And, you know, when I meet someone, I just think to myself, oh, my God, is he going to be the person? I'm literally like, is this the person? Is this the person?

00:17:02
Speaker 2: I know.

00:17:02
Speaker 1: Instead of just allowing the relationship to, you know. Unfold. Evolve and unfold. I mean, who knows? Maybe I should go on the Golden Bachelorette. You should.

00:17:12
Speaker 2: Boy, would they love to have you.

00:17:13
Speaker 1: I don't think.

00:17:15
Speaker 2: Honestly, Kelly, there is not a guy good enough out there for you that we're going to have on the show.

00:17:20
Speaker 1: They have a hard.

00:17:21
Speaker 2: Time finding men to be on the show, to be honest with you. And the older men, younger men, they have a whole slew of them that want to be on the show because they see fame. Older men don't see fame. They see, oh, why am I going to do this to my life? Why am I going to embarrass myself? Why am I going to do this? I can just sit at home and watch football with my buddies. And I don't think they care as much about finding men. like they're chapter two as we do. Right. I, I missed being a couple. I missed having my person. I missed having couple friends and I don't think guys care as much. They're just as happy having their guy friends going, playing golf and watching football on the weekends where we're looking for, like, we like our couple relationships. We like going with other couples and I don't think guys care as much.

00:18:09
Speaker 1: Right. It's interesting because my last boyfriend, he had this amazing friend group. And so we would spend so much time together. And the wives and the girlfriends, we all became so close and had so much fun. And as much as I kind of mourn that relationship, I really, really mourn the friendships. I was like, I was loving it. I was like, oh my God, where are my girls?

00:18:33
Speaker 2: I've had that before. Or you love their kids or you love some other part of their life.

00:18:37
Speaker 1: And I loved his kids. And we were having... the best time. Literally, I was having so much fun. Okay.

00:18:44
Speaker 2: So I did listen to your podcast with Susan and Kathy, but I feel like maybe not everybody that's listening to this podcast listened to that. So will you just tell the listeners a little bit about what happened there? Because I heard and it broke my heart, but I feel like you did the right thing. But can you just maybe give us a quick synopsis?

00:19:01
Speaker 1: I mean, it's terrible because I had a breast cancer scare and you know, in his defense, he didn't really, I was, I didn't articulate it. I didn't say I'm having a breast cancer scare. Something's really wrong with me. I need to take care of it. I said, oh, you know, just a little something. Cause I, I had only known him for a couple of months and, you know, I just didn't feel like I could put that kind of responsibility on him. And then I knew I was going on the show. So I was like, first of all, I had this breast cancer scare and I was having, I was literally like, when you have a scare like that, Joan, The idea that I would not be able to– I'm not going to cry, like literally. Yeah. The idea that I was not going to be there for my kids after I've done everything for my kids, put every single cent that I've earned into their brain so they're going to be the most, there can be the most amazing children in the world. Yeah. Now that I wasn't going to be there. I just was like, Oh my God. Oh my God.

00:19:57
Speaker 2: No.

00:19:57
Speaker 1: Like it really, really, really hit me. Terrifying. And it's not his responsibility. It isn't. I just really rubbed me the wrong way. And then when I knew I was going on the show, I just was like, I can't go on a television show with someone that I, that is not going to be a forever person. Yeah. And that, that sign. And actually that was the most mature thing that I've done in a really long time.

00:20:21
Speaker 2: And it would have really changed your interactions with the women on the show, because I think everybody else on that show is single, right?

00:20:26
Speaker 1: Right. Except for Luann. It would have been right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

00:20:29
Speaker 2: So I think it would have changed your interaction. So like in the long run for like the health of the show or for the health of you and you maintaining your, you know, your normal persona. Like, I feel like you probably did the right thing, but I love that you just said it wasn't his responsibility. And I think as women, we don't want to be dependent. Like we don't want to seem like dependents. We want to seem really independent and like, I'm going to, I can take care of my own and I don't need you to help me. And, but you were really vulnerable and we don't feel comfortable being vulnerable. And that's right.

00:20:59
Speaker 1: Right. Right. You know, again, like I know I always say this, but I am from the Midwest and we're just like, we just are take care of thing kind of personalities. And in New York, it's like, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And it's just like, I'm just not raised like that. And so, and he's, and I'm not talking, saying that he is, but most of my friends were like, oh my God, you didn't go. And I was like, first of all, like, I don't even understand what you're saying. You're speaking so quickly. And I am like freaking out inside. So can you turn down the volume on your concern? And please just let me try to get through this. There'd be a.

00:21:38
Speaker 2: Text, please.

00:21:38
Speaker 1: It's just a different way of, you know, honestly, it's just a different upbringing. And So, I mean, you know, I, I really, he's such a great guy and he is, I mean, whoever gets to go out with him is like so lucky because he's such a stellar human. I really, really, really believe that.

00:21:56
Speaker 2: Do you think there's ever going to be a chapter two for you guys?

00:21:59
Speaker 1: You know, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I really don't know. I need to get through the show and kind of just see where I am and when the show, after the show finishes. And, you know, I just, it's funny that you said that because like today I, On my run, I was like, I just want to give myself some grace, Joan. I've just been through so much. The show is really exciting, but it's also very, very difficult. And I just want to give myself a little grace. And I think when I'm in that mode, the person will be around for me at that time. Do you know what I mean? I don't want to meet someone right now. I'm like... I'm filming. The volume doesn't work.

00:22:39
Speaker 2: You know, I have to fight with some real housewives. I have an argument to have on camera. Dorinda hates me right now.

00:22:50
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I just want to just give myself some grace and we'll, you know, we'll see what happens after the, after the show.

00:22:57
Speaker 2: So much about relationships are about finding the right person at the right time. I mean, I think we've all found the right person at the wrong time. And we've all found the wrong person at the right time. Like getting the timing perfectly with the right person is really, really hard. He was just like the right.

00:23:13
Speaker 1: Person at the wrong time. Yeah. He just was the wrong time. So you never, you never, you never know. Yeah. I'm just trying to like stay like in my own, my personal, like personal, personal self bubble. I'm just trying to stay like true to myself. And you never know. Yeah. Yeah. You have to be seeing.

00:23:35
Speaker 2: Well, I'm so glad that your breast cancer scare is over.

00:23:37
Speaker 1: Thank you.

00:23:39
Speaker 2: I wish you'd let me know. I would have flown there and like snuggled down with pink fuzzy slippers with you and gotten you through that.

00:23:45
Speaker 1: Well, I was in LA with you. I had to go on steroids because I was like such a mess to come to LA. And I wanted to go to LA. I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna not live. Yeah. Wow.

00:24:00
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, sweetie.

00:24:01
Speaker 1: No, no, no. I mean, it's one of those things too. You can't, you know, what are you going to do? Be like, hey, Joan.

00:24:07
Speaker 2: I'd have something like, well, I just, I had a thyroid cancer scared. So I was coming off. So I was going on to gold. I was going to be gold in a bachelorette. And I had like a physical. They make you to have a physical, which they should. So I had a physical and had blood drawn. And my thyroid hormone was really off, like really off. So my doctor said, well, we don't have time to like do scans and do all the tests we need to do. You know, it'll be fine. Take care of it when you get back. So now I am worried the entire, so of course I Google it immediately. And it says, if you're the, you know, numbers above like eight and mine was like 12.5, you likely have thyroid cancer. And I was like, oh my God. So I was like brewing in my head the entire time I'm filming golden bachelorette. I have this in my mind that I have thyroid cancer. And so I get home and I have to do press really soon after that. So there's only like a month turnaround between you finish filming and the show comes out. So, and when the show comes out the week, the show comes out, you do all of your press in New York city. So I am, I go and get a, um, a sonogram of my thyroid and they do another blood test and I'm waiting for the results and I'm thinking, okay, well, so I got to figure out how I'm going to do this. I'm going to probably have to have surgery and then probably have to remove my thyroid. And I've read all about it and it's, you know, somewhat curable and like I could be okay, but I'm just like going through this whole thing. And, but I'm like, I don't want this to be my story. I don't want cancer to be my story coming off of the golden bachelorette. That's all they'll talk about if that's what happened. So I'm going to keep it a secret and I'm going to wear all high dresses. So I have this whole idea of how I'm going to get through like the next four months without anybody knowing that I have thyroid cancer. Well, it comes out that I just have nodules on my thyroid and I just have to have them checked every year. And they're fine. And they could turn into something, but very likely won't. So, but it was like, I was scared for like three months. I was just, I was sick to my stomach. Every time I thought about it, I had like a panic attack. I mean, of course.

00:26:01
Speaker 1: But I love that you're so like organized, trying to figure out what the turtleneck. I'm like.

00:26:05
Speaker 2: I'm going to wear high neck dresses, like sleeveless. They're going to be really pretty, but I'm going to have this big scar here that I'm at the hide.

00:26:11
Speaker 1: Right. Yep.

00:26:13
Speaker 2: It was all about the dresses. I know.

00:26:14
Speaker 1: Oh my God. I mean, that's so stressful too when you're filming and you're like looking for love and trying to be vulnerable and be open.

00:26:21
Speaker 2: And just trying to keep pushing that back, pushing that back.

00:26:24
Speaker 1: Oh my God.

00:26:26
Speaker 2: I didn't tell a soul. I told no one.

00:26:29
Speaker 1: Oh my God. So I have a really interesting question. How have you gone about introducing men to your children while you were dating?

00:26:46
Speaker 2: So I think it's a little easier. I was married for 32 years. I was with John for 36. And my kids were grown.

00:26:54
Speaker 1: Right.

00:26:55
Speaker 2: John passed away. So my youngest was 25. My oldest was 31. So I have four kids. So between 25 and 31. So, like, introducing them, it wasn't like I was saying, like, here is potentially a new person in your life that you're going to have to live with or that's going to act like a father to you or going to be, like, some, like, in some capacity, like, affecting their lives that much. They had all moved out of my home and they all had lives of their own. Some of them, one of my, two of my kids had kids of their own already. So, really, after John died, my kids were all, you know, kind of grown. And by the time chalk came into their life, they were even out of my house. So I don't think it was super hard for me. And they wanted me to find somebody. They were really open to me finding somebody. I introduced them only to like two men. And I'd be like, oh, like Frank's going to come over and watch a game, like the football game with us. And, you know, so that was okay. It was more uncomfortable for me to introduce men to my mother-in-law. I'm still very, very close to my mother-in-law. I see her several times a week. She lives very close to me. she babysits one of my grandkids twice a week. You know, she, I'm very, very, very close to my mother-in-law and that was actually more comfortable, uncomfortable for me to introduce her to somebody. And she was always, couldn't have been any nicer, very welcoming, but that was hard for me.

00:28:12
Speaker 1: How about you? Um, you know, so when I, when my, you know, my kids were very, very young when I got divorced, they were, they were five and seven. And so again, like my ex-husband lived next door with the wall between us.

00:28:25
Speaker 2: Um, so The Great Wall of China. The Great Wall of New York.

00:28:28
Speaker 1: And because I was working in magazines and I didn't have to always be in the office. I just went to the office for certain things. But most of the things I was doing was writing and people would come and meet me. The photographers would come meet me. The stylists would come meet me because I had young kids. And so there was always people around, always. And if there was someone that I was going on a date with and they would see them They'd be like, hi, you know, whatever. They wouldn't even flinch. They never even, they never were even like, who are you dating? Who's that person?

00:29:02
Speaker 2: Like. It could have been a work colleague. They didn't know. They didn't differentiate between the people coming in and out. So that was easy.

00:29:09
Speaker 1: Okay. It was a lot easier for me. And, you know, I mean, there was, you know, there weren't that many guys that I would bring into my family home. Clearly.

00:29:16
Speaker 2: How about when they were teenagers? I'm guessing at that point they may have noticed things a little different, like the way you acted to people in your home.

00:29:23
Speaker 1: But still, they didn't, I never said anything. And there was just so many people all the time. I mean, I'm talking like a lot of people and a lot of gay men were always around me. And so they just never, they just didn't, you know, unless there was like a special friend, I would say like this is a special friend. that's what my therapist told me to do so you know that's what i would say and they'd be like what is the special friend and i was.

00:29:44
Speaker 2: Like we're not gonna go into details yeah exactly.

00:29:49
Speaker 1: Right. So, but I think it's, I think it's all, it's very subjective. You know, it's like, like you were saying, like your kids were okay, but your mother-in-law, which I love so much that you guys are so close. That's so beautiful. But I think that, you know, if you're like, you know, if you're living in a house and you're living in like Illinois where I'm from and you know, a guy comes over, it's obvious when you're living in New York city and you work from home and all these people are coming into your house, it's not as obvious.

00:30:16
Speaker 2: So you and I kind of had it easy, really. We didn't have that awkward, this is a man that is special to me in my life now. And you're going to have to like him, or I hope you're going to like him.

00:30:28
Speaker 1: And by the way, I mean, this is an awful thing to say, but even the guys that I did date, even if they were the best guys in the world, I was so laser focused on making money for my kids that even if they were unbelievably fantastic, my focus was making money for my children. And they were second, and they knew it. Well, you know what?

00:30:48
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if that ever changes.

00:30:49
Speaker 1: It's hard for a man. It's hard. It's hard for a man to be.

00:30:52
Speaker 2: I have to be completely honest about that. I'm not sure my focus, a man will ever be come before my kids, no matter what I, and my kids are grown. Like my, my oldest is 36 and my youngest is 30 and my kids will always be number one. Cause you know what? You only get one mom. I could probably have a million men or maybe not. Maybe I'll never have another man again, whatever. Um, but yeah, My kids only ever have me as their mother and that will always be my number one position in life is their mother.

00:31:24
Speaker 1: And I love that. And I think that's like a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful sentiment. And I feel the same way.

00:31:29
Speaker 2: You think we will find men that will think that's okay? Like accept that position.

00:31:35
Speaker 1: I think it has to be a very, very healthy man.

00:31:37
Speaker 2: Yep.

00:31:38
Speaker 1: Who has a lot of respect for, I mean, that's why, you know, it's like I have all these, you know, I have all these like parameters for these guys. They have to be like a very healthy human, not like physically. I'm talking mentally healthy human. Yeah, right. Because I could not be with a man who doesn't have respect for his ex-wife. If you talk badly about your ex-wife or are disrespectful to them in any way possible, like that's just not my vibe. Like I know people think it's fun. It's not my thing. It's like you have to figure it out. And if you can't figure it out, you know, then that's something that you need to.

00:32:14
Speaker 2: You know, you may need a therapist before you, we get to get back together. I feel like it's a, it's a whole, well, I feel like it's a whole element about being a gentleman. Like my, I was raised, my father was the ultimate gentleman. He never, he never cussed. He never spoke poorly about really anybody. He just was a kind human. He immigrated here from Holland. He was just a gentleman. And I, like my, so my bar is very high for men when it comes, we're talking ill about people, like talking about ex-wives or talking about previous relationships. I just don't feel like a gentleman does that. And so like, that's, that's a, that's a problem for me. That's a red flag for me. John does not talk about his wife poorly. I know instances, I know why they're divorced, but I know very few stories. I know very little. He says, you know, I, he's, she's the mother of my kids and, They had a healthy relationship and now he's really good about not talking about his ex-wife.

00:33:12
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah. I love that because that makes you, you know, I think that, I think the bottom line to that is that like what makes a woman feel safe. And when you're constantly talking ill about your, your ex, uh, it doesn't make you feel safe.

00:33:27
Speaker 2: It really doesn't because if he talks poorly about an ex and he'll talk poorly about you to the next woman, if there's an ex-woman.

00:33:34
Speaker 1: Yeah. Exactly.

00:33:36
Speaker 2: Um, Are there instances you wish you could have done different when it came to dating as a single parent? Do you wish you had spent more time? You'd given more to a guy or given less to a guy and skip the whole thing.

00:33:51
Speaker 1: You know, and like, I just, you know, I, I just kind of said, I nodded to that about, you know, I just was working so much and I, you know, I, you can't, I mean, I, I was working, my impetus was pure. Yeah. Like I was working because I was educating brains. I was not working because I wanted a new Chanel bag. No, no, I, no, I want not, no, I want a new Chanel bag. No, but I'm just being facetious. But I mean, but back then, like I wasn't working cause I was feeling gorgeous and I was like, wow, I'm going to work and I'm going to be this worker. Like I was working because I was making money and I had a motive and I knew what the end game was. And I knew how much money I needed to make every single semester. And I made it happen.

00:34:40
Speaker 2: Do you think that you maybe wasted some of your really good years? So like this age, it's very hard to find a single man that we want. Do you, but back then, like when we were younger and I was still married. So when you were younger, Do you think that you wasted some years where there were maybe way more eligible men?

00:35:01
Speaker 1: Yes. I mean, I really wanted to have more kids. I mean, I thought I would have had like four or five kids. I always wanted kids. My ex-husband was older and he loves my girls, but he didn't want to have a lot of kids. Yeah. And I really, really wanted that. I think that when I was single, I was a big model. I was an editor. So I was like the bright and shiny toy for the single guys in New York. And instead of seeing me as someone that they wanted to make sure that I was safe... they wanted to take me out to dinner and they were like, Oh my God, look what I'm going out with.

00:35:41
Speaker 2: I was like, Oh yeah.

00:35:42
Speaker 1: He's like you. I'm like, wow. Great for you.

00:35:45
Speaker 2: I bet they did love being with you.

00:35:48
Speaker 1: And you know, that was nice for them. But I always, I honestly would leave dates and I just felt like very like disappointed is not the right word. I just was just like, why did I waste my time? I could have been home like, you know, drinking tea, reading books, hanging out with my kids, watching stupid movies. Yeah. Yeah. you know, screaming at them about homework. I could have been doing the things that I love to do. Yeah.

00:36:11
Speaker 2: Because you were working all day. So you were, you were probably tired by the end of the day. And then to make an effort to go with a guy and it not be great was probably like, why did I waste my time?

00:36:19
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. I used to think to myself, why did I just waste my time? Yeah.

00:36:24
Speaker 2: So I love Shana's story when she talked about reconnecting, um, with the guy, I'm trying to remember his name that she was, had been in love with before. Um, And the kind of reconnect with him throughout her dating career. Greg. Yes, Greg.

00:36:40
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you.

00:36:41
Speaker 2: And they finally, it sounds like maybe reconnected at the right person at the right time. Would you ever go back and visit maybe an old, old love? I know we talked about your most recent old love and maybe there's potential, but is there somebody lurking in the back of your brain that you dated or you would have liked to have dated that is still lurking there and you'd like to maybe reconnect with?

00:37:04
Speaker 1: I mean, there was one guy that I really, really liked that my kids really liked, but he had just gotten out of a marriage and he wasn't ready. And his marriage didn't fare well for him, but he was a great, great guy. And I really, really liked him. But again, I'm also kind of, you know, it's like I know if they're just having a good time. And I'm just like, no, no, no, this is not the vibe. No, no, no.

00:37:28
Speaker 2: Have you ever thought about like trying to find him? Or do you still know? I mean, I know where he is.

00:37:34
Speaker 1: Like he'll DM me all the time. He's like Keeks. My nickname is Keeky. So he's like, Keeks, looking great. I'm like, oh my God, stop. Okay.

00:37:41
Speaker 2: So do you think he's a playboy?

00:37:42
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think he's a playboy. I just think that he went through a lot. And I think that it's a testament to him to like where he is in his life because he's still not married. And he still never had kids. And he loved kids. And he's a very bright guy. Very successful guy.

00:37:58
Speaker 2: And never had kids. It sounds like that. Well, for a guy, that ship hasn't sailed. They can have them when they're much older. But I wanted more kids.

00:38:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:38:08
Speaker 2: And so you guys would have been perfect together.

00:38:10
Speaker 1: Right. Exactly.

00:38:12
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:38:13
Speaker 1: Okay. And I mean, when Shana talks about meeting Greg and just is like, I mean, her voice, the tone in her voice, I was like, oh my God. She's done.

00:38:24
Speaker 2: She found him.

00:38:25
Speaker 1: She's like, there you are.

00:38:26
Speaker 2: Done. Yeah. She literally pointed and said, you're the one I want to spend the rest of my life with. But he kept playing in her story. He never left her book. He had chapters throughout her whole story. And it just finally hit the right person at the right time. And that is key.

00:38:56
Speaker 1: And then when she said, oh my God, I would marry him.

00:38:58
Speaker 2: I'm dying to marry him.

00:38:59
Speaker 1: I know. She said, I'm dying to marry him. I love that. I love that.

00:39:03
Speaker 2: What are you waiting for?

00:39:06
Speaker 1: I don't know how much I like him. And she's like, I just want to marry him. I feel like we're.

00:39:11
Speaker 2: Going to hear an engagement rumor soon.

00:39:13
Speaker 1: I just thought that was so honest. I really liked her honesty. I really liked her. I was just like, oh, my God.

00:39:18
Speaker 2: And I didn't expect to at all.

00:39:20
Speaker 1: Me neither. I loved her. I know.

00:39:23
Speaker 2: I know. No, I was very I was.

00:39:25
Speaker 1: Like, well, cause Jane is so sweet and soft and just very thoughtful. So I was like, maybe it's just because Jane, you know, Jana is so sweet like that, that she's bringing this out in her. And I was like, no, no, no. This woman is like, she knows what's going on. She's very clued into her life and how she's navigated her world. I have said some stuff in the past. I have to admit that I would, that of how like, you know, she is with Travis's new wife and their kids. So I have said something, but I take it all back because I just was so moved by her today. I just, I did. I just thought she was, she's a really, really beautiful human.

00:40:05
Speaker 2: I loved how she owned all of her mistakes in the past and, and like kind of shown how she's grown. And I think she's like, like, and, Sounds like she's super close to her kids. And like now she found another love. I just feel like maybe she finally found the right one. And sometimes it takes people five tries or however many tries. Right. And then they find it.

00:40:26
Speaker 1: She might be on. When she was talking about her daughter and how she has to go back and forth from L.A. to Texas because she goes to the emergency room.

00:40:35
Speaker 2: That's concerning.

00:40:36
Speaker 1: I mean, that literally broke my heart.

00:40:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I listened to that. That broke my heart. She spoke about it very matter-of-factly, and I'm sure it's way more emotional than she let on because when your child is suffering, particularly mentally, honestly, I almost feel like that's even harder. I've had kids that have suffered, especially after my husband died. We all suffered. It was all really, really hard. It's hard to– so if they have a broken arm or if they have a concussion or if they have something wrong with their eyes, you go and you seek medical attention and they fix it. mental illness is so much harder and it sounds like, yeah, her daughter is really, really like she's 21 years old. It sounds like it's just super hard to deal with that. And it sounds like she's probably in college. Like all of that is hard.

00:41:23
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah.

00:41:24
Speaker 2: That would scare me.

00:41:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. I totally agree. And I, that's exactly what I thought. I was just like, that's something that you can't like, you can't put a bandaid on. No. Do you know what I mean? Like you can't come and say like, we're going to go to the doctor. We're going to get that taken care of. Yeah.

00:41:39
Speaker 2: This is long-term. It takes a while to heal like from mental illness, from things like that.

00:41:45
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:41:46
Speaker 2: And 21 is a really vulnerable age and hard just to be a 21 year old girl anyway, with all the social, you know, pressures that we have. I mean, I remember being 21. I mean, it was like maybe some of the best times in my life and probably some of the hardest.

00:42:00
Speaker 1: But also she has on top of all of that, she has famous parents. Yeah. Very famous parents. Yeah.

00:42:08
Speaker 2: And you wonder how that all plays out that are in the news and have had some, you know, have had a past. And so that, you know, their past follows you also. People know about you. And, you know, they even had to talk about, she mentioned that she connected with Travis and said, do our kids have security in New York? Like, oh, kids are in New York. Do they have security? I'm like, wow, your kids have to have security? That's kind of scary.

00:42:31
Speaker 1: I thought so too. I was like, security? Huh? Yeah. Honestly, I was like, wait a minute. I was like, security?

00:42:42
Speaker 2: Oh, they're Kardashians.

00:42:44
Speaker 1: Right.

00:42:44
Speaker 2: But her kids with Travis are not Kardashians. And she was talking about her kids having security.

00:42:51
Speaker 1: Oh, but her kids, they travel with them.

00:42:53
Speaker 2: Travel with them also.

00:42:54
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

00:42:55
Speaker 2: That makes sense.

00:42:55
Speaker 1: So when they're together in New York or wherever around- Kourtney, they have to have that.

00:43:01
Speaker 2: And they have it with them.

00:43:01
Speaker 1: Okay.

00:43:02
Speaker 2: That makes more sense. I was like, wow. I mean, he was famous. I mean, obviously, but like.

00:43:05
Speaker 1: Really famous.

00:43:07
Speaker 2: But like, I mean, yeah, but I mean, I wouldn't think that he would need security.

00:43:11
Speaker 1: I wouldn't either.

00:43:11
Speaker 2: I wouldn't think, I wouldn't think most people that pass him on the street aren't going to know who he is.

00:43:16
Speaker 1: I agree. I was like, wait, what? Yeah.

00:43:17
Speaker 2: I was like, what are you talking about?

00:43:19
Speaker 1: I didn't understand that at all. Yeah.

00:43:21
Speaker 2: So our kids do deal with that too. So like they are really in the limelight with the Kardashians.

00:43:26
Speaker 1: Yes. I mean, that is a terrible, terrible thing. Terrible life.

00:43:30
Speaker 2: They didn't ask for that.

00:43:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:43:33
Speaker 2: Especially since like he, they got thrust into this as kind of like adults.

00:43:37
Speaker 1: But remember like, you know, Kim, she was held at gunpoint. I know.

00:43:42
Speaker 2: When she was in Paris, when she was robbed.

00:43:44
Speaker 1: Yes. Scary.

00:43:45
Speaker 2: You know, I totally get how the Kardashians need security. I didn't realize I, now I get the whole security.

00:43:51
Speaker 1: Musicians, children.

00:43:52
Speaker 2: Totally get that.

00:43:53
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:43:53
Speaker 2: I would be scared for my kids. And that must be like hard on her knowing that her kids are, in that kind of situation. Like she had to ask, do they have security in New York? Like, do you have to worry about your kids at that level? That security.

00:44:07
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:44:07
Speaker 2: That's scary.

00:44:09
Speaker 1: It's really scary. Yeah.

00:44:10
Speaker 2: That they were dragged into that now life also. It's like almost being a Royal.

00:44:15
Speaker 1: Right. It is. It's exactly. Yes.

00:44:19
Speaker 2: Like you have to worry about kidnapping and crap like that.

00:44:21
Speaker 1: That's a horror. That's a horror story.

00:44:23
Speaker 2: That's a whole other story that we should probably do a podcast on. Oh, this is good because I think you have comments about this. It sounded like Shaina and Travis' wife, Kourtney Kardashian, are not very close. Kelly, how have you handled that dynamic when your ex-husband has had a new woman in his life? Was it difficult for you?

00:44:42
Speaker 1: Okay, you're never going to believe it. Before we got divorced or separated, I introduced Jill to one of my friends who's a beautiful, beautiful human. Um, and I was just like, here you go.

00:44:56
Speaker 2: I was like, I knew that wasn't right.

00:44:58
Speaker 1: So I introduced them and she is unbelievable. And they were together for a very long time.

00:45:04
Speaker 2: I love that. Did you ever ask him to return the favor? Uh, no, no, you didn't think, you.

00:45:10
Speaker 1: Know, I just, I couldn't, you know, he's, he's been, you know, he's dated a million and married a million, a million models. And I just couldn't have that around my kids.

00:45:22
Speaker 2: So you did it for your kids. You wanted him to have the right person.

00:45:25
Speaker 1: I did.

00:45:26
Speaker 2: And you did a great job.

00:45:27
Speaker 1: I did. I can't tell you her name, but she is a fantastic, fantastic human. I love that.

00:45:36
Speaker 2: So they're not together anymore, but they did spend a lot of time together.

00:45:39
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, they were together for over seven years. I mean, a long time. So it was a really nice relationship. I'm very proud of that, actually, Joan.

00:45:46
Speaker 2: You did a good job, and I'm proud that you did that. That took a lot of Kind of self-confidence because like handing off the person that like you once loved is even probably hard even if you don't love them anymore. Like they're still part of you and part of your story and to give them another story, like start the next chapter, help them start was really great of you.

00:46:06
Speaker 1: I just was like, my father was just like, we need to tie a bow on this. We're done. Yeah.

00:46:11
Speaker 2: So let me ask you, is he married now or does he have a new relationship?

00:46:15
Speaker 1: He does. He has a great relationship and she's really, really smart and been very, very, very kind to my ex and he's very happy. Great. And she's very, very gracious to my kids and that means so much.

00:46:30
Speaker 2: Have your kids liked all of his relationships since your divorce or?

00:46:35
Speaker 1: You know, I have to say like, You know, he's, you know, he went back to a couple of younger models, which is, you know, it's fine. That's like, you know, that's his vibe, which is fine. But then he also dated one and one of his girlfriends was, is my client. And I love her. And she's a fantastic Venezuelan, brilliant, brilliant woman. And then his current girlfriend is just a very, very smart English woman. And she's lovely. So, you know what I mean? Like, I just feel like, okay. Yeah. And the girls are great. I mean, by the way, even if they weren't, my girls would be like, nice to see you.

00:47:08
Speaker 2: Cause you raise nice girls.

00:47:10
Speaker 1: Cause I'm like, you don't say anything bad about anyone. Like even in, even in Jess, like it does, it's like, doesn't, it's just a disservice to you.

00:47:18
Speaker 2: Well, you've sent a great example that you don't need to put other people down to make yourself feel good. That's not right.

00:47:24
Speaker 1: No, no.

00:47:25
Speaker 2: You do a good example for your daughters.

00:47:27
Speaker 1: Can you tell my, my co-stars that?

00:47:30
Speaker 2: I really feel like I need to come on and have a talk with them. I don't think they know how nice you are. I don't know how they could have missed that. I'll do guest of show. And I'm just here to tell you all people like to make an announcement.

00:47:43
Speaker 1: Public announcement.

00:47:45
Speaker 2: You obviously don't know the Kelly I know. Give her a chance.

00:47:50
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

00:47:52
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, they got to make TV.

00:47:53
Speaker 1: I had a percent. No, it's all good.

00:47:55
Speaker 2: That's where you guys are getting that award.

00:47:57
Speaker 1: Getting the award. It's be so fun. But, you know, it's like, I mean, I, you know, I appreciate you complimenting me on that and that, you know, it took a lot, took a lot out of me. Do you know what I mean? Like I just was, but I knew what I had to do. I knew that I had to not be with him anymore. I knew I had to start my own life. I knew I had to really, really be laser focused on work. And I knew I had to go for it because I was 36 years old. And it was like the window was, if I was going to meet someone, it was then. And because I had to work so much.

00:48:35
Speaker 2: You just put that on the back burner.

00:48:37
Speaker 1: I didn't see people, Joan. I didn't even like, I didn't, I would be like, and I mean, you can ask any guy that if I gave you their number and you're like, so what'd you think of Kelly? They'd be like, Oh, she was so great. She just was having a good time. Like they would never say she was serious. They would never say, oh, she wanted to get married or they would never say like, you know, she wanted to have more kids or I just, I just didn't give off that energy. And, you know, guys really pick up on that.

00:49:05
Speaker 2: I mean, and I don't think that you could have, I don't think there's enough room in your life when you talk about how much you were working and how much time you wanted to spend with your kids. There just wasn't enough time for a man. I mean, like, where would he fit into that?

00:49:17
Speaker 1: Right. You wouldn't have. Right.

00:49:19
Speaker 2: And you did, you did it your way. And I think a lot of women do it our way. And that's why maybe there are so many single women out there and not that many single men.

00:49:27
Speaker 1: Okay.

00:49:28
Speaker 2: Kelly, I have had the best time talking. I think we could stay on this podcast for like four hours, but they're.

00:49:32
Speaker 1: Making it now.

00:49:33
Speaker 2: So are you ready to find love again in your chapter two? We're here to help. Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All the info is in the show notes. Follow us on socials too. I Do Part Two, an iHeartRadio podcast for falling in love, is the main objective.