Sept. 14, 2026
The Attacks Keep Coming As Holdout Clancy Juror Identified As A Black Man
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RSS Feed Several jurors have made the rounds, continuing to point the finger at the holdout juror that ultimately resulted in a mistrial for the Lindsay Clancy triple murder case. In an unscripted moment, CBS host Gayle King was shocked when she realized, and the juror she was interviewing confirmed, that the hold out juror was a black man. We go over why this was such a shocking revelation to King and why it’s now created an unusual political divide: An unlikely Republican leader coming to the defense of the black juror, while several national medial outlets dig up dirt on the juror’s background.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
00:00:02
Speaker 1: All right.
00:00:02
Speaker 2: Hey there, folks. Stop us if you've heard this one before. Eleven white jurors and one black juror walk into a bar. We should have known this wasn't going to go well. And with that, everybody, welcome to the show. I'm TJ. That's Rogues. The world has gone crazy. The juror, the lone holdout juror in the Lindsay Clancy trial is black. Gayle King can't believe it. MAGA is running to the defense of the black man. The world, like you just said before we started, it's like we're in the upside down. What's going on?
00:00:33
Speaker 3: The liberals are all backing the 11 white jurors and finding dirt, like digging up dirt on this black juror.
00:00:43
Speaker 1: And it just feels like what you.
00:00:46
Speaker 3: Would expect certain sides of the fence, who they'd be, what team they'd be on. Everyone's all mixed up from what you would typically expect to happen.
00:00:55
Speaker 2: Robes, you have... conservatives coming to the defense of a black man against 11 white jurors and liberals.
00:01:06
Speaker 3: Yes, all over whether or not a white woman intended to murder her three white babies.
00:01:13
Speaker 2: And Gayle King almost fell out of the chair.
00:01:16
Speaker 3: Now.
00:01:16
Speaker 2: Where do we begin? I'm not sure where we're supposed to start. Actually, let me get your reaction, and both of us here, our reaction to the two big parts of the story that developed late last week that we did get word that, yes, the lone holdout is black, and then Gayle King's reaction to that caused certainly a stir and a debate to go. So, my first question to you, your reaction just when we found out that the lone holdout was a black man. What was your reaction?
00:01:41
Speaker 1: For me, it.
00:01:43
Speaker 3: I guess I was a little surprised, but I didn't have the same reaction that maybe you had, certainly not the one that Gayle King had. But we had had a conversation about who we thought this holdout juror was while the deliberations were going on, and I was leaning towards a man. I felt like this obviously was a man. I didn't know what the racial makeup of the jury was, so I wasn't even thinking race. I was only thinking gender. And so to hear it was a black man, I guess that didn't surprise me because I just feel like, Given what I know from you and what I've known just in covering events, obviously I could see a black man being distrustful of the system, being distrustful of police, being distrustful of the prosecution.
00:02:25
Speaker 1: So to me, it wouldn't be that.
00:02:26
Speaker 3: Surprising that he would demand to know beyond a reasonable doubt. And if you can't, it's just not shocking to me that he was trying to then, with.
00:02:37
Speaker 1: All of that, still uphold the law and hold someone accountable.
00:02:40
Speaker 2: Okay, so- Your reaction to him being a black guy, your reaction though to now Gayle King's reaction. We'll get into it if you haven't seen it, you probably already have, but your reaction to her flat out being surprised in the middle of an interview when she learned the guy was a black guy.
00:02:58
Speaker 1: I honestly didn't understand it at first.
00:03:00
Speaker 3: I really didn't because I wasn't sure, am I looking at this through a racial lens or am I looking at this through a political ideology? I wasn't sure where she was coming from and you filled in the Blanks.
00:03:12
Speaker 1: A little bit for me because I don't ever want to assume.
00:03:15
Speaker 3: As a white person, I don't claim to know the experience of or the lens through which you're seeing things.
00:03:21
Speaker 2: That's funny. No, and that was probably the problem in the jury room, right? My reaction when I found out I was a black guy, so much else made sense.
00:03:31
Speaker 1: You were like, of course.
00:03:33
Speaker 2: It all made sense. We'll get into that, but ropes. We had issue from the jump. of deliberations with how they were treating this juror. We didn't understand. They were trying to get him kicked off, and it went on, and then the attacks came after. We didn't understand. Found out he was a black guy. I was like, oh, okay.
00:03:55
Speaker 3: And the interesting thing is you were, in our podcast and certainly behind the scenes, very much rallying in the defense of this juror. Well before we knew the race of this juror, you kept saying this feels like bullying. This feels like they don't like what he thinks. So they're trying to say he did something procedurally wrong or legally wrong to try and get him and pressure him and get the judge to pressure him and get the world to pressure him to think like they think. And you thought that was anti-American. Really, that it flew in the face of our judicial system and how it's set up.
00:04:29
Speaker 2: But our system is set up for him to have that opinion. It's also set up that he doesn't have to explain that to everybody else. It's also, as long as he's following the rule, he didn't do anything wrong. He was deliberating. So we were strongly defending this guy. I was in shock at how the system was even allowing these other 11 to almost beat up on this guy and tell on him. They're trying to get that guy kicked off, and it seemed like Robes, the only thing is, he won't agree with us so we can all go home. We didn't like it at the beginning. Tell me now he's a black man. I go, oh, okay.
00:05:04
Speaker 3: So please explain why that makes so much sense to you.
00:05:07
Speaker 2: Because I've been in that room my whole career. And Robes, this is a moment that you can just imagine that you have 11 white people that don't have any choice or any options in the matter to get this one black guy to do their bidding. Imagine how that feels. I know how it feels in a room like this. I have not been on a jury deliberation, nothing like this. But every single morning for eight years, hey, good morning, America, baby, I went into a room where I was essentially the only black man in a room full of about 20 to 30 white people. And I had countless instances where I had an opinion that was not valued because those 20 or 30 white people had the same experiences. and the same opinion. So therefore, if we all agree, you must be wrong. He's sitting in that room with, yes, there are racial dynamics here that's going to be hard for some people to understand, but it'll be easy for black folks to. There is now Robes, we can't make him do this. So what are we going to do? We don't respect him. Get on board. They actually tried to get him kicked off.
00:06:26
Speaker 1: They called him arrogant. They said he didn't grasp the law.
00:06:29
Speaker 2: Now you're talking about his intelligence. Some things started coming out that just didn't make sense, baby, until you told me he was black. And I go, oh, he's arrogant. He doesn't grasp the law. What was he not getting? I hope he can sleep well at night. He wasted this time. He had... That's the thing, babe. Now they're attacking him. He is being doxxed to a certain degree, ropes. They're going after his background. What did... Three kids are dead, and they're telling me this guy's a problem because he didn't pay his rent. They literally are looking up his rental history and applying... And they're attacking him, babe. And it feels awful.
00:07:08
Speaker 3: They're pointing to an allegation and an arrest where there was never a conviction, which, by the way, you can be arrested and be.
00:07:16
Speaker 1: a juror.
00:07:17
Speaker 3: So they're like, they're looking to see whether or not he lied on his juror application. And look, plenty of people have been arrested for no reason whatsoever or have been proven to be innocent. The charges were dropped against him, but they're bringing up, they're looking for anything to make him look like a bad seed.
00:07:33
Speaker 2: A bad dude. We've seen, because you didn't do what we told you to do. How dare you black man have power over this proceeding? Rose, he had power over the proceeding. And I don't know what his convictions are, babe. He might absolutely believe what a lot of America believes is that this woman should be in prison.
00:07:56
Speaker 3: Yes, and there have been plenty of op-eds from conservatives who I've already seen. The Washington Post actually had one just put out saying he was the only one who got it right. So a lot of people do believe that, and it has become a party, a partisan issue.
00:08:12
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Explain Gayle King's reaction to me.
00:08:16
Speaker 2: I see it as she had an idea already in her head, and that flew in the face of it.
00:08:23
Speaker 3: She thought maybe it was a MAGA sympathizer, someone who was conservative, because we mentioned it had been on political lines.
00:08:30
Speaker 2: That's all the debate has been, right? And publicly, conservatives are like, you crazy liberals. I think there was an easy assumption to make, and she probably did have in her head. Well, yeah, it's a white guy. Some white guy's holding everything up.
00:08:47
Speaker 1: Some Republican white guy.
00:08:49
Speaker 2: Black people aren't supposed to think a certain way according to certain people. We're supposed to be Democrats. We're supposed to vote a certain way. We're supposed to eat a certain thing. We're supposed to like a certain music. We fit into categories. And yes, even black people put each other in those categories sometimes. And she was shocked that this guy would be so dead set, Robes, in what he believed, that he would still keep that vote. Somebody that convicted in what they believe must be some hardcore conservative over there holding things up. It's a black man?
00:09:28
Speaker 1: She said, I need to sit with that? Is that what she said?
00:09:32
Speaker 2: We have it in here. Where's the exact... So they're going back and forth. There it is. She says to the juror, is the holdout juror a black man? The juror responds, yes. Gail says, a black man is a holdup juror? Whoa, I have to sit with that for just a second. Well, it was a funny, honest moment because she was literally thrown off guard.
00:09:53
Speaker 3: It is so interesting, though. It was a genuine moment, as you pointed out. But we all that's the point at which all of us. us could ask ourselves, wow, we have ideas in our head.
00:10:03
Speaker 1: We label people. We make assumptions all the time.
00:10:07
Speaker 3: And all of a sudden, when that assumption is proven to be wrong, it takes a second.
00:10:12
Speaker 1: And look, this is a learning, a learning, teachable moment. In a lot of ways. But unfortunately, this black holdout juror is paying the price.
00:10:22
Speaker 2: Rogues, is he ever going to speak? Should he speak? Does he need to speak? Does he want to show his face? I don't know. But, Rogues, the way he's being attacked before and now after the trial, it's just not fair. I'm not defending. I don't know his background. I'm not defending anything. I don't know what he's done. But the system told me he was a legit juror.
00:10:43
Speaker 3: I'm done.
00:10:44
Speaker 2: Nothing else to talk about. He's a legit juror. And y'all don't like it? Okay.
00:10:49
Speaker 1: And we also learned a little bit more that it wasn't just 11 to 1 initially. This was interesting.
00:10:53
Speaker 3: And it wasn't as if this holdout juror refused to budge.
00:10:58
Speaker 2: This was interesting.
00:10:58
Speaker 1: So there were some new details that came out.
00:11:00
Speaker 3: First of all, the initial juror split, more than one person wanted to find.
00:11:05
Speaker 1: Lindsay Clancy guilty. That's huge.
00:11:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, the split was 8-2-2, correct? So 8 not guilty, 8. Two guilty and two that were undecided, and they just weren't sure where they fit. And after they were going back and forth and back and forth, he ended up, he initially wanted first degree murder. He came down.
00:11:27
Speaker 1: We don't know if it was to second degree or to manslaughter, but.
00:11:30
Speaker 3: He did agree to change because he watched the video, correct?
00:11:34
Speaker 1: A video changed his mind?
00:11:36
Speaker 2: Some interview that Lindsay Clancy had. Now, Robes, isn't that, Isn't that telling and significant?
00:11:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:11:42
Speaker 2: If the judge had heard that, if anybody hears that this guy, wait a minute, he went from first degree down to manslaughter, maybe, or even down to second degree, it means he was willing to be open to change his mind to some degree. Is that right?
00:11:55
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, the quote from the other jurors were, we watched video of the interview with Clancy, and after that, he, the holdout juror, replied that it wasn't murder in the first degree, and that's where we saw his doubt.
00:12:06
Speaker 1: That sounds like, to me, they saw an opening.
00:12:08
Speaker 3: Ooh.
00:12:09
Speaker 2: There you go.
00:12:10
Speaker 3: Thank you, baby. He moved.
00:12:11
Speaker 1: He changed his mind. We can keep changing his mind.
00:12:14
Speaker 2: Okay, but the way she put it, that's where we saw doubt. So, therefore, if there's some doubt, they used that, it seemed.
00:12:21
Speaker 1: And that's not fair.
00:12:22
Speaker 2: It's not, baby.
00:12:22
Speaker 1: That's not fair.
00:12:23
Speaker 3: I actually think that shows that he was critically thinking and willing to keep his mind open when he decided, okay, after I see this, I don't think it was first-degree.
00:12:35
Speaker 1: That's how the system's supposed to work.
00:12:37
Speaker 3: He re-evaluated a piece of video and then came to a different conclusion that actually came closer to agreeing with some of the other jurors. Isn't that what the process is supposed to be like? But then he gets to say, this is as far as I'm willing to go. And then if they can't come to an agreement, what's supposed to happen is a mistrial.
00:12:57
Speaker 2: Isn't that something nobody's getting on to the, should he come out and say, yeah, they walked in the room, they were all not guilty and they never budged. They weren't willing to negotiate. They weren't willing to, right?
00:13:07
Speaker 1: Exactly.
00:13:07
Speaker 2: Eight of them walked in and said not guilty and never changed their mind. He was willing to and now he's the one being called out for not being a good deliberator.
00:13:17
Speaker 4: Okay.
00:13:18
Speaker 2: We did the age range. Some of the other interesting nuggets here. The age range, 70 to 22. That's a wide range.
00:13:23
Speaker 1: But I actually think that's good. That's good.
00:13:25
Speaker 3: You want to have, I mean, you want to have diversity. You want to have diversity in age, experience, yes, in race, all of that because everyone brings a different piece of experience and a different lens through which they see the world into that juror deliberation room.
00:13:40
Speaker 1: And that is what we're supposed to have happen, I would argue.
00:13:43
Speaker 2: A lot of parents on the jury. That was interesting that they'd come out as well. Robes, and I want to get into this with you because I think a lot of people, it's hard to, we don't want to be in a position where some people are dismissive and, oh, this is all about race. And this did become, quite frankly, a big story about race. I was actually on Twitter, on X, and just saw their news headline on the side, and it said, Mistrial in Clancy Child Murder Case After Black Jurors Hold Out. That was the headline. So here we go. Rogue, did you think anything of it based on your experience? Did race play, when you hear he's black, you just say, okay, or what, seriously, from your lens of what racial dynamics play into that?
00:14:43
Speaker 3: I initially didn't think anything, but I understand as a white person why white people would then say, oh, see, he just refused to agree with us just because we're white. Like, they could make that same argument. He didn't want to go along with us because he wanted to be the adversary or to be the, you know, the rubble rouser. And they could have been dismissive of his legitimate... beliefs his legitimate conclusions that he came to after critically evaluating what he saw and they might have been dismissive of it because they might have been viewing him through a lens of race like oh he's just adversarial because we're all white and he's black and he doesn't want to agree with us and just to prove a point that he doesn't have to he's not gonna and i could see the white jurors looking at him.
00:15:34
Speaker 1: Through that lens.
00:15:36
Speaker 2: I am fascinated by this guy You know how hard that is to do?
00:15:41
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine. For seven days.
00:15:42
Speaker 2: To dig your heels.
00:15:44
Speaker 1: In for how many hours? 30-something hours of deliberations. They didn't make it to 40?
00:15:50
Speaker 2: They made it to 40.
00:15:51
Speaker 1: Wow.
00:15:53
Speaker 3: That had to have been excruciating.
00:15:57
Speaker 2: We have, and again, you can see some things differently because of the experiences you've had with me and seeing how we have to navigate around the world. But even before we were dating, and we've told the story publicly a couple times without identifying the players. But, Rove, there's nothing worse than the feeling of not being allowed to have your own unique experience in this country. Because some people don't understand what it does feel like on a day-to-day basis to be black in America.
00:16:28
Speaker 1: Well, white people can't know what that feels like, period.
00:16:31
Speaker 2: Okay, there it is. Obviously, that's true. But there are so many that don't see it that way because they think our experience needs to be the same as theirs through their lens. And that's the only one they can see it through. And too often, white people win because they're the ones in charge. Can't convince you, can't convince you because.
00:16:55
Speaker 1: I'm... Because I don't have to.
00:16:57
Speaker 2: On the lower end of the totem pole.
00:16:59
Speaker 1: First of all.
00:16:59
Speaker 3: And I'm saying, yeah, the white folks aren't trying to bring you along or convince you or... in any way, try to have a genuine conversation where they're open to your experience because they don't have to.
00:17:11
Speaker 2: Don't have to be. And this was a rare occasion where they had to. And they couldn't change his mind. And they had no recourse in this matter that they might have in a boardroom, on the city street, on television and debate, whatever it may be, somewhere else. So, Robes, I don't ever want to always hold my tongue because I'm not mad at this woman and don't think she's a bad person. But she had a really, really ugly moment and that you were there for. When I have never in my life been shot down more in having a genuine opinion and feeling about something. And you were standing right next to me when it happened, March 28th, I believe it was, 2022? Two, yes. The night after the Oscars.
00:18:13
Speaker 3: The Oscars, of course, where Will Smith slapped comedian and host Chris Rock. And so you and we were about to go on the air and you were talking about what you were going to say because you were actually being tasked with talking about this. We were there, we were watching it. Two black men, you're a black man, and you were sharing what you were going to say.
00:18:40
Speaker 1: Were you practicing what you were saying? Were you rehearsing what you were saying?
00:18:43
Speaker 2: I think we might have just all been kind of discussing it. We were just talking about it. Because this was out there, it was four in the morning, right? It was in LA.
00:18:48
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:18:49
Speaker 2: So the ceremony just wrapped up. We were all a little tired.
00:18:52
Speaker 1: We hadn't really slept. I don't think we slept at all. None of us had.
00:18:55
Speaker 2: All of us a little punchy.
00:18:56
Speaker 3: We were all talking about what we experienced, and you were talking about it, how you experienced it as a black man. The first time a black producer was producing the Oscars. You've got a black host who is hosting the Oscars, and now you've got a black man who is about to win Best Actor.
00:19:15
Speaker 2: And don't forget, we had D-Nice DJ there. It was a black, this was a black Oscars.
00:19:20
Speaker 3: And so to have this very historic moment be clouded, ruined by Will Smith, you had real feelings that a white person would not understand. But the problem is there is no acknowledgement of that by this other person. And you were told that your experience was wrong, that your reaction wasn't fair, and that what this white person experienced with the people she was around completely outweighed how you were feeling in the moment. And I believe she was urging you not to say what you wanted to say because you were wrong.
00:20:06
Speaker 2: This was one of the most difficult individual moments I ever had at ABC. Because we were standing there, yes, the three of us, but folks back in the studio, like we were wired up at that time. We were close to going on the air, but where we were standing out there live in LA, that was 30 plus folks on the set hearing all this. And I can remember still only one of the black guy being on that set besides me. But Rose, I could not believe the, Ignorance. And I'm not calling the person stupid. I'm saying by a lack of understanding of what they haven't experienced, to actually tell me, a black man, that the way I experienced that moment was not legit. It's not right. It's not okay. You don't have a right to it, TJ.
00:21:02
Speaker 1: My jaw was dropped.
00:21:03
Speaker 2: The words were, no way. TJ, you are seeing it all wrong and you are making it something that it's not. A white woman told a black man that, not understanding that I've been taught from birth, make sure you don't do your dirty laundry out in front of white folks. Don't fight in front of white people. Don't let them see what's happening in the house. We know this. We've taught this. There's something else we understand, Robes. You don't ever, ever, ever. We had the first black Oscars. And this is the result. We got two of the biggest black stars up there fighting on stage. What that meant for all of us was, oh, my God. It's the same reaction we had when Obama was elected. Like, oh, no matter what you think, he better not mess this up or we'll never have another brother in there for 100 years. That is how we see and react because, baby, we don't get these opportunities. So when they come, we got to nail them or it looks bad on all of us. And I got a white woman. in front of 30 people, my colleagues, telling me I don't have a black experience. Babe, that was a tough moment. And so I have had several moments at GMA like that, where you're trying to convince 30 people that they're wrong, or at least to get them to see your experience as legitimate. But they don't because it's not like theirs. And since 30 of them agree, I have to be wrong. Can you imagine sitting in that jury room? Baby.
00:22:40
Speaker 3: And it's so wild because you felt that way. Neither one of us thought that that juror was black. And yet you were, and I think because of your experience, regardless of what his background was, what he looked like, where he came from, you feel, I don't want to say camaraderie, but you understand what it feels like to be the only person who thinks differently from the others.
00:23:01
Speaker 2: Immediately. Immediately. And I know how you get cut down. You get shot down. What was the first thing? First thing, disagreement with the person standing next to me. What was the first thing? Nope, you're wrong. You're wrong. You're making something that's not. Why you always got to make it that? That was the reaction. Really, why did you see it that way? Nobody asked that. Nobody ever asked that. We just, we're used to this thing, baby.
00:23:25
Speaker 1: I'm right, you're wrong.
00:23:26
Speaker 2: We're used to it. Right, wrong, and we're outnumbered. And we are outranked. So sit down and shut up. What? Shut up and dribble? How many times black folks just keep getting told to shut up, shut up, shut up? We're used to this thing, baby. So, yes, if that woman had said in front of me, yes, the lone holdout was black, I would go, aha, I knew it. This all makes sense now. That would have been my reaction. Gail almost fell out the chair. Gail almost fell. You know what? Gail has a different black experience than I do.
00:24:01
Speaker 4: That's a black man. It's different from hers. Oh my God. And we love Gail. This is not a dishonest reaction. Nothing's wrong with that. But it was funny to me.
00:24:15
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.
00:24:16
Speaker 3: And look, we had said so many wonderful things and we stand by our experience of watching Kevin Reddington do his thing.
00:24:23
Speaker 1: But wow. Once you heard the quote, did he, did he know he was black when he said this?
00:24:31
Speaker 2: It's a tough sentence.
00:24:33
Speaker 1: Because if he knew he was black when he said it, it would be way worse.
00:24:37
Speaker 2: He knew it was a man. Yes. So he probably did. I have a hard time thinking he couldn't piece together which one it was. He knew. I bet he knew.
00:24:47
Speaker 3: So obviously the jurors called him arrogant, said he struggled to comprehend what the law was, said that he couldn't cite any evidence to support his position.
00:24:58
Speaker 1: But Kevin Reddington said this. They were robbed by one man.
00:25:03
Speaker 2: He added at gunpoint.
00:25:05
Speaker 1: No, he did not.
00:25:06
Speaker 2: Okay, sorry. I got a little worked up here.
00:25:09
Speaker 1: That was tough.
00:25:10
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the thing. They weren't... The system says they weren't robbed. The system says... This is the system. And he had a right to do what he wanted to do, even though there were 11 other people pressuring him. I don't know if I could have. Nah, I probably would have. But I don't know. You know how hard that was?
00:25:30
Speaker 1: I know you would have held your ground.
00:25:32
Speaker 2: I mean, if you really believe it.
00:25:34
Speaker 1: I know you would have.
00:25:35
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't he have? And aren't some seeing him as a guardian angel looking over those kids? That's how he's being regarded in some circles. And the other side is seeing him as what?
00:25:45
Speaker 3: As someone who robbed... Lindsay Clancy of the treatment she deserves or of the outcome she deserves or who was unwilling to acknowledge that postpartum psychosis is real. So look, it's also interesting we talked about the reactions and yes, it's now been this weird reversal of support that you wouldn't expect. But even more so, this one black holdout juror has a champion tweeting for him.
00:26:13
Speaker 2: This is the weirdest story ever.
00:26:15
Speaker 3: And it's the most unlikely story supporter you could imagine. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis.
00:26:23
Speaker 2: This is hilarious.
00:26:24
Speaker 1: His tweet reads as follows.
00:26:27
Speaker 3: A man objected to allowing a woman to kill her three young kids and get away with it. So NBC is trying to smear that juror whose identity should be protected. Another low for legacy media. If the juror is being harassed, Florida will provide asylum. I'm sure he'd be welcomed and appreciated. This really is the upside down world.
00:26:50
Speaker 2: Asylum is the word. From assault. You know what? There you go. That word, it kind of seems a little silly when you're talking about state to state. Of course, you don't seek asylum. But Robes, he used that in such a way that he's going to need protection from somebody. Yes. I don't know how much scarier this is going to get for him. I don't know where he is, but the affiliates, I mean, they know him. They know who he is, and they know his name. It's probably just a matter of time.
00:27:16
Speaker 3: I was just going to say, it's a matter of time, and he is almost certainly going to require some sort of security. I would imagine he would need that and want that, and to that point, someone has already set up a campaign for him to get.
00:27:30
Speaker 1: Funds for him, and it is steadily... increasing.
00:27:32
Speaker 3: Every time I check back, the number gets more. At first, it's GiveSendGo is the site where they're creating this fund for this holdout juror. But they initially had said they wanted to raise $ 100, 000, quickly surpassed that. Now they're saying the goal is $ 150, 000. This is as of this recording.
00:27:51
Speaker 1: On Monday. But last time I checked it, it was $ 114, 000.
00:27:55
Speaker 3: But every time I check it, it goes up by at least 1,000 every hour. So this is going to keep growing and growing. And look, organizers say that they're raising the money for this holdout juror to cover, quote, the juror's security, attorneys. and lost wages if he faces fallout over his role in the mistrial. So they're already anticipating he may need legal fees, he needs security.
00:28:18
Speaker 2: For what? What does he need? Why are we going after him? Because we don't like how he voted?
00:28:24
Speaker 1: It's terrible.
00:28:26
Speaker 2: We're going after, this is... It's awful.
00:28:27
Speaker 1: It's a character assassination.
00:28:29
Speaker 3: It is.
00:28:30
Speaker 1: And it's continuing.
00:28:31
Speaker 3: Like, if you look up each day, there are more headlines. They're looking into his background. And look, we don't know anything about this guy. We haven't looked for his name. I don't even want to know. We shouldn't know. It just seems wrong. It seems illegal to be outing somebody and then subjecting them to online, not just criticism, but absolute assault. Truly, I think that's the correct word. Character assassination, for sure. Because We or some people don't like his verdict.
00:29:04
Speaker 2: Why won't people just, I know this is, people have their opinions. Why can't, nothing is accepted as legitimate anymore.
00:29:11
Speaker 1: You know what, that's such a good point. From our elections.
00:29:14
Speaker 2: Thank you. Any outcome of a trial, nothing is, we don't have faith in anything or anybody. And babe, this is another, how are you going to get people to, people are going to be leaving town to get a void, to avoid jury duty. Nobody likes it anyway, but who wants to do this?
00:29:33
Speaker 1: You give up five weeks of your life.
00:29:35
Speaker 2: Come on, man.
00:29:37
Speaker 3: And now you've got this to deal with, the aftermath of this? this. If you don't vote the way the majority does, if you don't vote the way America thinks you should, you're going to be subjected to cancel culture on an epic level when you are just truly a private citizen.
00:29:50
Speaker 1: That is unfair. These aren't public figures.
00:29:53
Speaker 3: And certainly the jurors have chosen the spotlight.
00:29:55
Speaker 1: I don't fault them, but they're getting publicity and they're getting attention.
00:30:01
Speaker 3: And it isn't even as if this juror was looking for it or seeking it. It doesn't seem like he was grandstanding so that he could get some sort of attention placed on him.
00:30:10
Speaker 1: He has not spoken once. And I don't know if he should, to be honest.
00:30:14
Speaker 2: I mean, he might have to defend himself at some point. He might have to have a representative put a statement out on his behalf. Because Robes, 11 people are coming out and giving their story about what happened in there. And every single one of them have taken an taken an opportunity to attack this guy so they're telling the world that's already pissed about the verdict many that are actually guys you should be pissed because it wasn't fair and he's the reason not just had a different opinion oh no no no he doesn't understand the law he wouldn't follow the law even kevin reddington accused the guy of perjury because he went in there and swore that he could follow the judge's instructions remember.
00:30:52
Speaker 1: That how can you get inside someone's head You cannot. That's the point. This is not a provable accusation. It just isn't.
00:31:01
Speaker 2: At all. How far does this go, baby?
00:31:03
Speaker 1: It's not over.
00:31:04
Speaker 2: How far does this go? And look, I'm not calling anybody on that jury racist at all, but it made more sense. We all see. Some people heard it was a man and thought, oh, of course, it's the man who can't understand what a woman is going through. I don't And they said that made sense to them based on their experience as a woman.
00:31:24
Speaker 1: That's what I thought.
00:31:25
Speaker 2: And I have an experience as a black man that also informs me about what this was.
00:31:32
Speaker 1: And that's what we all need to acknowledge.
00:31:33
Speaker 2: That's all. Everybody has a different experience and is looking at this differently. But man, Robes, it's kind of wild. It's kind of wild, but.
00:31:43
Speaker 3: Gail.
00:31:46
Speaker 1: That was an honest moment.
00:31:47
Speaker 4: It was.
00:31:47
Speaker 2: It was very, it was hilarious. I have to say, it really threw off. She made a comment at the end of it still. She wasn't quite over it.
00:31:54
Speaker 1: You sure he's black?
00:31:58
Speaker 2: Oh, this brother. Well, no, it's not done. And again, there's a motion out there to still get an acquittal, I think.
00:32:05
Speaker 3: Correct.
00:32:06
Speaker 2: Is there still a motion out there to get this juror kicked off or something?
00:32:09
Speaker 3: There's several motions going on, but there's a hearing scheduled for the end of September.
00:32:13
Speaker 2: Okay. All right. We'll keep an eye on you folks, but always appreciate you spending a little time with us. I'm T.J., That's Robes. I'll call myself soon.
Speaker 1: All right.
00:00:02
Speaker 2: Hey there, folks. Stop us if you've heard this one before. Eleven white jurors and one black juror walk into a bar. We should have known this wasn't going to go well. And with that, everybody, welcome to the show. I'm TJ. That's Rogues. The world has gone crazy. The juror, the lone holdout juror in the Lindsay Clancy trial is black. Gayle King can't believe it. MAGA is running to the defense of the black man. The world, like you just said before we started, it's like we're in the upside down. What's going on?
00:00:33
Speaker 3: The liberals are all backing the 11 white jurors and finding dirt, like digging up dirt on this black juror.
00:00:43
Speaker 1: And it just feels like what you.
00:00:46
Speaker 3: Would expect certain sides of the fence, who they'd be, what team they'd be on. Everyone's all mixed up from what you would typically expect to happen.
00:00:55
Speaker 2: Robes, you have... conservatives coming to the defense of a black man against 11 white jurors and liberals.
00:01:06
Speaker 3: Yes, all over whether or not a white woman intended to murder her three white babies.
00:01:13
Speaker 2: And Gayle King almost fell out of the chair.
00:01:16
Speaker 3: Now.
00:01:16
Speaker 2: Where do we begin? I'm not sure where we're supposed to start. Actually, let me get your reaction, and both of us here, our reaction to the two big parts of the story that developed late last week that we did get word that, yes, the lone holdout is black, and then Gayle King's reaction to that caused certainly a stir and a debate to go. So, my first question to you, your reaction just when we found out that the lone holdout was a black man. What was your reaction?
00:01:41
Speaker 1: For me, it.
00:01:43
Speaker 3: I guess I was a little surprised, but I didn't have the same reaction that maybe you had, certainly not the one that Gayle King had. But we had had a conversation about who we thought this holdout juror was while the deliberations were going on, and I was leaning towards a man. I felt like this obviously was a man. I didn't know what the racial makeup of the jury was, so I wasn't even thinking race. I was only thinking gender. And so to hear it was a black man, I guess that didn't surprise me because I just feel like, Given what I know from you and what I've known just in covering events, obviously I could see a black man being distrustful of the system, being distrustful of police, being distrustful of the prosecution.
00:02:25
Speaker 1: So to me, it wouldn't be that.
00:02:26
Speaker 3: Surprising that he would demand to know beyond a reasonable doubt. And if you can't, it's just not shocking to me that he was trying to then, with.
00:02:37
Speaker 1: All of that, still uphold the law and hold someone accountable.
00:02:40
Speaker 2: Okay, so- Your reaction to him being a black guy, your reaction though to now Gayle King's reaction. We'll get into it if you haven't seen it, you probably already have, but your reaction to her flat out being surprised in the middle of an interview when she learned the guy was a black guy.
00:02:58
Speaker 1: I honestly didn't understand it at first.
00:03:00
Speaker 3: I really didn't because I wasn't sure, am I looking at this through a racial lens or am I looking at this through a political ideology? I wasn't sure where she was coming from and you filled in the Blanks.
00:03:12
Speaker 1: A little bit for me because I don't ever want to assume.
00:03:15
Speaker 3: As a white person, I don't claim to know the experience of or the lens through which you're seeing things.
00:03:21
Speaker 2: That's funny. No, and that was probably the problem in the jury room, right? My reaction when I found out I was a black guy, so much else made sense.
00:03:31
Speaker 1: You were like, of course.
00:03:33
Speaker 2: It all made sense. We'll get into that, but ropes. We had issue from the jump. of deliberations with how they were treating this juror. We didn't understand. They were trying to get him kicked off, and it went on, and then the attacks came after. We didn't understand. Found out he was a black guy. I was like, oh, okay.
00:03:55
Speaker 3: And the interesting thing is you were, in our podcast and certainly behind the scenes, very much rallying in the defense of this juror. Well before we knew the race of this juror, you kept saying this feels like bullying. This feels like they don't like what he thinks. So they're trying to say he did something procedurally wrong or legally wrong to try and get him and pressure him and get the judge to pressure him and get the world to pressure him to think like they think. And you thought that was anti-American. Really, that it flew in the face of our judicial system and how it's set up.
00:04:29
Speaker 2: But our system is set up for him to have that opinion. It's also set up that he doesn't have to explain that to everybody else. It's also, as long as he's following the rule, he didn't do anything wrong. He was deliberating. So we were strongly defending this guy. I was in shock at how the system was even allowing these other 11 to almost beat up on this guy and tell on him. They're trying to get that guy kicked off, and it seemed like Robes, the only thing is, he won't agree with us so we can all go home. We didn't like it at the beginning. Tell me now he's a black man. I go, oh, okay.
00:05:04
Speaker 3: So please explain why that makes so much sense to you.
00:05:07
Speaker 2: Because I've been in that room my whole career. And Robes, this is a moment that you can just imagine that you have 11 white people that don't have any choice or any options in the matter to get this one black guy to do their bidding. Imagine how that feels. I know how it feels in a room like this. I have not been on a jury deliberation, nothing like this. But every single morning for eight years, hey, good morning, America, baby, I went into a room where I was essentially the only black man in a room full of about 20 to 30 white people. And I had countless instances where I had an opinion that was not valued because those 20 or 30 white people had the same experiences. and the same opinion. So therefore, if we all agree, you must be wrong. He's sitting in that room with, yes, there are racial dynamics here that's going to be hard for some people to understand, but it'll be easy for black folks to. There is now Robes, we can't make him do this. So what are we going to do? We don't respect him. Get on board. They actually tried to get him kicked off.
00:06:26
Speaker 1: They called him arrogant. They said he didn't grasp the law.
00:06:29
Speaker 2: Now you're talking about his intelligence. Some things started coming out that just didn't make sense, baby, until you told me he was black. And I go, oh, he's arrogant. He doesn't grasp the law. What was he not getting? I hope he can sleep well at night. He wasted this time. He had... That's the thing, babe. Now they're attacking him. He is being doxxed to a certain degree, ropes. They're going after his background. What did... Three kids are dead, and they're telling me this guy's a problem because he didn't pay his rent. They literally are looking up his rental history and applying... And they're attacking him, babe. And it feels awful.
00:07:08
Speaker 3: They're pointing to an allegation and an arrest where there was never a conviction, which, by the way, you can be arrested and be.
00:07:16
Speaker 1: a juror.
00:07:17
Speaker 3: So they're like, they're looking to see whether or not he lied on his juror application. And look, plenty of people have been arrested for no reason whatsoever or have been proven to be innocent. The charges were dropped against him, but they're bringing up, they're looking for anything to make him look like a bad seed.
00:07:33
Speaker 2: A bad dude. We've seen, because you didn't do what we told you to do. How dare you black man have power over this proceeding? Rose, he had power over the proceeding. And I don't know what his convictions are, babe. He might absolutely believe what a lot of America believes is that this woman should be in prison.
00:07:56
Speaker 3: Yes, and there have been plenty of op-eds from conservatives who I've already seen. The Washington Post actually had one just put out saying he was the only one who got it right. So a lot of people do believe that, and it has become a party, a partisan issue.
00:08:12
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Explain Gayle King's reaction to me.
00:08:16
Speaker 2: I see it as she had an idea already in her head, and that flew in the face of it.
00:08:23
Speaker 3: She thought maybe it was a MAGA sympathizer, someone who was conservative, because we mentioned it had been on political lines.
00:08:30
Speaker 2: That's all the debate has been, right? And publicly, conservatives are like, you crazy liberals. I think there was an easy assumption to make, and she probably did have in her head. Well, yeah, it's a white guy. Some white guy's holding everything up.
00:08:47
Speaker 1: Some Republican white guy.
00:08:49
Speaker 2: Black people aren't supposed to think a certain way according to certain people. We're supposed to be Democrats. We're supposed to vote a certain way. We're supposed to eat a certain thing. We're supposed to like a certain music. We fit into categories. And yes, even black people put each other in those categories sometimes. And she was shocked that this guy would be so dead set, Robes, in what he believed, that he would still keep that vote. Somebody that convicted in what they believe must be some hardcore conservative over there holding things up. It's a black man?
00:09:28
Speaker 1: She said, I need to sit with that? Is that what she said?
00:09:32
Speaker 2: We have it in here. Where's the exact... So they're going back and forth. There it is. She says to the juror, is the holdout juror a black man? The juror responds, yes. Gail says, a black man is a holdup juror? Whoa, I have to sit with that for just a second. Well, it was a funny, honest moment because she was literally thrown off guard.
00:09:53
Speaker 3: It is so interesting, though. It was a genuine moment, as you pointed out. But we all that's the point at which all of us. us could ask ourselves, wow, we have ideas in our head.
00:10:03
Speaker 1: We label people. We make assumptions all the time.
00:10:07
Speaker 3: And all of a sudden, when that assumption is proven to be wrong, it takes a second.
00:10:12
Speaker 1: And look, this is a learning, a learning, teachable moment. In a lot of ways. But unfortunately, this black holdout juror is paying the price.
00:10:22
Speaker 2: Rogues, is he ever going to speak? Should he speak? Does he need to speak? Does he want to show his face? I don't know. But, Rogues, the way he's being attacked before and now after the trial, it's just not fair. I'm not defending. I don't know his background. I'm not defending anything. I don't know what he's done. But the system told me he was a legit juror.
00:10:43
Speaker 3: I'm done.
00:10:44
Speaker 2: Nothing else to talk about. He's a legit juror. And y'all don't like it? Okay.
00:10:49
Speaker 1: And we also learned a little bit more that it wasn't just 11 to 1 initially. This was interesting.
00:10:53
Speaker 3: And it wasn't as if this holdout juror refused to budge.
00:10:58
Speaker 2: This was interesting.
00:10:58
Speaker 1: So there were some new details that came out.
00:11:00
Speaker 3: First of all, the initial juror split, more than one person wanted to find.
00:11:05
Speaker 1: Lindsay Clancy guilty. That's huge.
00:11:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, the split was 8-2-2, correct? So 8 not guilty, 8. Two guilty and two that were undecided, and they just weren't sure where they fit. And after they were going back and forth and back and forth, he ended up, he initially wanted first degree murder. He came down.
00:11:27
Speaker 1: We don't know if it was to second degree or to manslaughter, but.
00:11:30
Speaker 3: He did agree to change because he watched the video, correct?
00:11:34
Speaker 1: A video changed his mind?
00:11:36
Speaker 2: Some interview that Lindsay Clancy had. Now, Robes, isn't that, Isn't that telling and significant?
00:11:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:11:42
Speaker 2: If the judge had heard that, if anybody hears that this guy, wait a minute, he went from first degree down to manslaughter, maybe, or even down to second degree, it means he was willing to be open to change his mind to some degree. Is that right?
00:11:55
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, the quote from the other jurors were, we watched video of the interview with Clancy, and after that, he, the holdout juror, replied that it wasn't murder in the first degree, and that's where we saw his doubt.
00:12:06
Speaker 1: That sounds like, to me, they saw an opening.
00:12:08
Speaker 3: Ooh.
00:12:09
Speaker 2: There you go.
00:12:10
Speaker 3: Thank you, baby. He moved.
00:12:11
Speaker 1: He changed his mind. We can keep changing his mind.
00:12:14
Speaker 2: Okay, but the way she put it, that's where we saw doubt. So, therefore, if there's some doubt, they used that, it seemed.
00:12:21
Speaker 1: And that's not fair.
00:12:22
Speaker 2: It's not, baby.
00:12:22
Speaker 1: That's not fair.
00:12:23
Speaker 3: I actually think that shows that he was critically thinking and willing to keep his mind open when he decided, okay, after I see this, I don't think it was first-degree.
00:12:35
Speaker 1: That's how the system's supposed to work.
00:12:37
Speaker 3: He re-evaluated a piece of video and then came to a different conclusion that actually came closer to agreeing with some of the other jurors. Isn't that what the process is supposed to be like? But then he gets to say, this is as far as I'm willing to go. And then if they can't come to an agreement, what's supposed to happen is a mistrial.
00:12:57
Speaker 2: Isn't that something nobody's getting on to the, should he come out and say, yeah, they walked in the room, they were all not guilty and they never budged. They weren't willing to negotiate. They weren't willing to, right?
00:13:07
Speaker 1: Exactly.
00:13:07
Speaker 2: Eight of them walked in and said not guilty and never changed their mind. He was willing to and now he's the one being called out for not being a good deliberator.
00:13:17
Speaker 4: Okay.
00:13:18
Speaker 2: We did the age range. Some of the other interesting nuggets here. The age range, 70 to 22. That's a wide range.
00:13:23
Speaker 1: But I actually think that's good. That's good.
00:13:25
Speaker 3: You want to have, I mean, you want to have diversity. You want to have diversity in age, experience, yes, in race, all of that because everyone brings a different piece of experience and a different lens through which they see the world into that juror deliberation room.
00:13:40
Speaker 1: And that is what we're supposed to have happen, I would argue.
00:13:43
Speaker 2: A lot of parents on the jury. That was interesting that they'd come out as well. Robes, and I want to get into this with you because I think a lot of people, it's hard to, we don't want to be in a position where some people are dismissive and, oh, this is all about race. And this did become, quite frankly, a big story about race. I was actually on Twitter, on X, and just saw their news headline on the side, and it said, Mistrial in Clancy Child Murder Case After Black Jurors Hold Out. That was the headline. So here we go. Rogue, did you think anything of it based on your experience? Did race play, when you hear he's black, you just say, okay, or what, seriously, from your lens of what racial dynamics play into that?
00:14:43
Speaker 3: I initially didn't think anything, but I understand as a white person why white people would then say, oh, see, he just refused to agree with us just because we're white. Like, they could make that same argument. He didn't want to go along with us because he wanted to be the adversary or to be the, you know, the rubble rouser. And they could have been dismissive of his legitimate... beliefs his legitimate conclusions that he came to after critically evaluating what he saw and they might have been dismissive of it because they might have been viewing him through a lens of race like oh he's just adversarial because we're all white and he's black and he doesn't want to agree with us and just to prove a point that he doesn't have to he's not gonna and i could see the white jurors looking at him.
00:15:34
Speaker 1: Through that lens.
00:15:36
Speaker 2: I am fascinated by this guy You know how hard that is to do?
00:15:41
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine. For seven days.
00:15:42
Speaker 2: To dig your heels.
00:15:44
Speaker 1: In for how many hours? 30-something hours of deliberations. They didn't make it to 40?
00:15:50
Speaker 2: They made it to 40.
00:15:51
Speaker 1: Wow.
00:15:53
Speaker 3: That had to have been excruciating.
00:15:57
Speaker 2: We have, and again, you can see some things differently because of the experiences you've had with me and seeing how we have to navigate around the world. But even before we were dating, and we've told the story publicly a couple times without identifying the players. But, Rove, there's nothing worse than the feeling of not being allowed to have your own unique experience in this country. Because some people don't understand what it does feel like on a day-to-day basis to be black in America.
00:16:28
Speaker 1: Well, white people can't know what that feels like, period.
00:16:31
Speaker 2: Okay, there it is. Obviously, that's true. But there are so many that don't see it that way because they think our experience needs to be the same as theirs through their lens. And that's the only one they can see it through. And too often, white people win because they're the ones in charge. Can't convince you, can't convince you because.
00:16:55
Speaker 1: I'm... Because I don't have to.
00:16:57
Speaker 2: On the lower end of the totem pole.
00:16:59
Speaker 1: First of all.
00:16:59
Speaker 3: And I'm saying, yeah, the white folks aren't trying to bring you along or convince you or... in any way, try to have a genuine conversation where they're open to your experience because they don't have to.
00:17:11
Speaker 2: Don't have to be. And this was a rare occasion where they had to. And they couldn't change his mind. And they had no recourse in this matter that they might have in a boardroom, on the city street, on television and debate, whatever it may be, somewhere else. So, Robes, I don't ever want to always hold my tongue because I'm not mad at this woman and don't think she's a bad person. But she had a really, really ugly moment and that you were there for. When I have never in my life been shot down more in having a genuine opinion and feeling about something. And you were standing right next to me when it happened, March 28th, I believe it was, 2022? Two, yes. The night after the Oscars.
00:18:13
Speaker 3: The Oscars, of course, where Will Smith slapped comedian and host Chris Rock. And so you and we were about to go on the air and you were talking about what you were going to say because you were actually being tasked with talking about this. We were there, we were watching it. Two black men, you're a black man, and you were sharing what you were going to say.
00:18:40
Speaker 1: Were you practicing what you were saying? Were you rehearsing what you were saying?
00:18:43
Speaker 2: I think we might have just all been kind of discussing it. We were just talking about it. Because this was out there, it was four in the morning, right? It was in LA.
00:18:48
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:18:49
Speaker 2: So the ceremony just wrapped up. We were all a little tired.
00:18:52
Speaker 1: We hadn't really slept. I don't think we slept at all. None of us had.
00:18:55
Speaker 2: All of us a little punchy.
00:18:56
Speaker 3: We were all talking about what we experienced, and you were talking about it, how you experienced it as a black man. The first time a black producer was producing the Oscars. You've got a black host who is hosting the Oscars, and now you've got a black man who is about to win Best Actor.
00:19:15
Speaker 2: And don't forget, we had D-Nice DJ there. It was a black, this was a black Oscars.
00:19:20
Speaker 3: And so to have this very historic moment be clouded, ruined by Will Smith, you had real feelings that a white person would not understand. But the problem is there is no acknowledgement of that by this other person. And you were told that your experience was wrong, that your reaction wasn't fair, and that what this white person experienced with the people she was around completely outweighed how you were feeling in the moment. And I believe she was urging you not to say what you wanted to say because you were wrong.
00:20:06
Speaker 2: This was one of the most difficult individual moments I ever had at ABC. Because we were standing there, yes, the three of us, but folks back in the studio, like we were wired up at that time. We were close to going on the air, but where we were standing out there live in LA, that was 30 plus folks on the set hearing all this. And I can remember still only one of the black guy being on that set besides me. But Rose, I could not believe the, Ignorance. And I'm not calling the person stupid. I'm saying by a lack of understanding of what they haven't experienced, to actually tell me, a black man, that the way I experienced that moment was not legit. It's not right. It's not okay. You don't have a right to it, TJ.
00:21:02
Speaker 1: My jaw was dropped.
00:21:03
Speaker 2: The words were, no way. TJ, you are seeing it all wrong and you are making it something that it's not. A white woman told a black man that, not understanding that I've been taught from birth, make sure you don't do your dirty laundry out in front of white folks. Don't fight in front of white people. Don't let them see what's happening in the house. We know this. We've taught this. There's something else we understand, Robes. You don't ever, ever, ever. We had the first black Oscars. And this is the result. We got two of the biggest black stars up there fighting on stage. What that meant for all of us was, oh, my God. It's the same reaction we had when Obama was elected. Like, oh, no matter what you think, he better not mess this up or we'll never have another brother in there for 100 years. That is how we see and react because, baby, we don't get these opportunities. So when they come, we got to nail them or it looks bad on all of us. And I got a white woman. in front of 30 people, my colleagues, telling me I don't have a black experience. Babe, that was a tough moment. And so I have had several moments at GMA like that, where you're trying to convince 30 people that they're wrong, or at least to get them to see your experience as legitimate. But they don't because it's not like theirs. And since 30 of them agree, I have to be wrong. Can you imagine sitting in that jury room? Baby.
00:22:40
Speaker 3: And it's so wild because you felt that way. Neither one of us thought that that juror was black. And yet you were, and I think because of your experience, regardless of what his background was, what he looked like, where he came from, you feel, I don't want to say camaraderie, but you understand what it feels like to be the only person who thinks differently from the others.
00:23:01
Speaker 2: Immediately. Immediately. And I know how you get cut down. You get shot down. What was the first thing? First thing, disagreement with the person standing next to me. What was the first thing? Nope, you're wrong. You're wrong. You're making something that's not. Why you always got to make it that? That was the reaction. Really, why did you see it that way? Nobody asked that. Nobody ever asked that. We just, we're used to this thing, baby.
00:23:25
Speaker 1: I'm right, you're wrong.
00:23:26
Speaker 2: We're used to it. Right, wrong, and we're outnumbered. And we are outranked. So sit down and shut up. What? Shut up and dribble? How many times black folks just keep getting told to shut up, shut up, shut up? We're used to this thing, baby. So, yes, if that woman had said in front of me, yes, the lone holdout was black, I would go, aha, I knew it. This all makes sense now. That would have been my reaction. Gail almost fell out the chair. Gail almost fell. You know what? Gail has a different black experience than I do.
00:24:01
Speaker 4: That's a black man. It's different from hers. Oh my God. And we love Gail. This is not a dishonest reaction. Nothing's wrong with that. But it was funny to me.
00:24:15
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.
00:24:16
Speaker 3: And look, we had said so many wonderful things and we stand by our experience of watching Kevin Reddington do his thing.
00:24:23
Speaker 1: But wow. Once you heard the quote, did he, did he know he was black when he said this?
00:24:31
Speaker 2: It's a tough sentence.
00:24:33
Speaker 1: Because if he knew he was black when he said it, it would be way worse.
00:24:37
Speaker 2: He knew it was a man. Yes. So he probably did. I have a hard time thinking he couldn't piece together which one it was. He knew. I bet he knew.
00:24:47
Speaker 3: So obviously the jurors called him arrogant, said he struggled to comprehend what the law was, said that he couldn't cite any evidence to support his position.
00:24:58
Speaker 1: But Kevin Reddington said this. They were robbed by one man.
00:25:03
Speaker 2: He added at gunpoint.
00:25:05
Speaker 1: No, he did not.
00:25:06
Speaker 2: Okay, sorry. I got a little worked up here.
00:25:09
Speaker 1: That was tough.
00:25:10
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the thing. They weren't... The system says they weren't robbed. The system says... This is the system. And he had a right to do what he wanted to do, even though there were 11 other people pressuring him. I don't know if I could have. Nah, I probably would have. But I don't know. You know how hard that was?
00:25:30
Speaker 1: I know you would have held your ground.
00:25:32
Speaker 2: I mean, if you really believe it.
00:25:34
Speaker 1: I know you would have.
00:25:35
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't he have? And aren't some seeing him as a guardian angel looking over those kids? That's how he's being regarded in some circles. And the other side is seeing him as what?
00:25:45
Speaker 3: As someone who robbed... Lindsay Clancy of the treatment she deserves or of the outcome she deserves or who was unwilling to acknowledge that postpartum psychosis is real. So look, it's also interesting we talked about the reactions and yes, it's now been this weird reversal of support that you wouldn't expect. But even more so, this one black holdout juror has a champion tweeting for him.
00:26:13
Speaker 2: This is the weirdest story ever.
00:26:15
Speaker 3: And it's the most unlikely story supporter you could imagine. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis.
00:26:23
Speaker 2: This is hilarious.
00:26:24
Speaker 1: His tweet reads as follows.
00:26:27
Speaker 3: A man objected to allowing a woman to kill her three young kids and get away with it. So NBC is trying to smear that juror whose identity should be protected. Another low for legacy media. If the juror is being harassed, Florida will provide asylum. I'm sure he'd be welcomed and appreciated. This really is the upside down world.
00:26:50
Speaker 2: Asylum is the word. From assault. You know what? There you go. That word, it kind of seems a little silly when you're talking about state to state. Of course, you don't seek asylum. But Robes, he used that in such a way that he's going to need protection from somebody. Yes. I don't know how much scarier this is going to get for him. I don't know where he is, but the affiliates, I mean, they know him. They know who he is, and they know his name. It's probably just a matter of time.
00:27:16
Speaker 3: I was just going to say, it's a matter of time, and he is almost certainly going to require some sort of security. I would imagine he would need that and want that, and to that point, someone has already set up a campaign for him to get.
00:27:30
Speaker 1: Funds for him, and it is steadily... increasing.
00:27:32
Speaker 3: Every time I check back, the number gets more. At first, it's GiveSendGo is the site where they're creating this fund for this holdout juror. But they initially had said they wanted to raise $ 100, 000, quickly surpassed that. Now they're saying the goal is $ 150, 000. This is as of this recording.
00:27:51
Speaker 1: On Monday. But last time I checked it, it was $ 114, 000.
00:27:55
Speaker 3: But every time I check it, it goes up by at least 1,000 every hour. So this is going to keep growing and growing. And look, organizers say that they're raising the money for this holdout juror to cover, quote, the juror's security, attorneys. and lost wages if he faces fallout over his role in the mistrial. So they're already anticipating he may need legal fees, he needs security.
00:28:18
Speaker 2: For what? What does he need? Why are we going after him? Because we don't like how he voted?
00:28:24
Speaker 1: It's terrible.
00:28:26
Speaker 2: We're going after, this is... It's awful.
00:28:27
Speaker 1: It's a character assassination.
00:28:29
Speaker 3: It is.
00:28:30
Speaker 1: And it's continuing.
00:28:31
Speaker 3: Like, if you look up each day, there are more headlines. They're looking into his background. And look, we don't know anything about this guy. We haven't looked for his name. I don't even want to know. We shouldn't know. It just seems wrong. It seems illegal to be outing somebody and then subjecting them to online, not just criticism, but absolute assault. Truly, I think that's the correct word. Character assassination, for sure. Because We or some people don't like his verdict.
00:29:04
Speaker 2: Why won't people just, I know this is, people have their opinions. Why can't, nothing is accepted as legitimate anymore.
00:29:11
Speaker 1: You know what, that's such a good point. From our elections.
00:29:14
Speaker 2: Thank you. Any outcome of a trial, nothing is, we don't have faith in anything or anybody. And babe, this is another, how are you going to get people to, people are going to be leaving town to get a void, to avoid jury duty. Nobody likes it anyway, but who wants to do this?
00:29:33
Speaker 1: You give up five weeks of your life.
00:29:35
Speaker 2: Come on, man.
00:29:37
Speaker 3: And now you've got this to deal with, the aftermath of this? this. If you don't vote the way the majority does, if you don't vote the way America thinks you should, you're going to be subjected to cancel culture on an epic level when you are just truly a private citizen.
00:29:50
Speaker 1: That is unfair. These aren't public figures.
00:29:53
Speaker 3: And certainly the jurors have chosen the spotlight.
00:29:55
Speaker 1: I don't fault them, but they're getting publicity and they're getting attention.
00:30:01
Speaker 3: And it isn't even as if this juror was looking for it or seeking it. It doesn't seem like he was grandstanding so that he could get some sort of attention placed on him.
00:30:10
Speaker 1: He has not spoken once. And I don't know if he should, to be honest.
00:30:14
Speaker 2: I mean, he might have to defend himself at some point. He might have to have a representative put a statement out on his behalf. Because Robes, 11 people are coming out and giving their story about what happened in there. And every single one of them have taken an taken an opportunity to attack this guy so they're telling the world that's already pissed about the verdict many that are actually guys you should be pissed because it wasn't fair and he's the reason not just had a different opinion oh no no no he doesn't understand the law he wouldn't follow the law even kevin reddington accused the guy of perjury because he went in there and swore that he could follow the judge's instructions remember.
00:30:52
Speaker 1: That how can you get inside someone's head You cannot. That's the point. This is not a provable accusation. It just isn't.
00:31:01
Speaker 2: At all. How far does this go, baby?
00:31:03
Speaker 1: It's not over.
00:31:04
Speaker 2: How far does this go? And look, I'm not calling anybody on that jury racist at all, but it made more sense. We all see. Some people heard it was a man and thought, oh, of course, it's the man who can't understand what a woman is going through. I don't And they said that made sense to them based on their experience as a woman.
00:31:24
Speaker 1: That's what I thought.
00:31:25
Speaker 2: And I have an experience as a black man that also informs me about what this was.
00:31:32
Speaker 1: And that's what we all need to acknowledge.
00:31:33
Speaker 2: That's all. Everybody has a different experience and is looking at this differently. But man, Robes, it's kind of wild. It's kind of wild, but.
00:31:43
Speaker 3: Gail.
00:31:46
Speaker 1: That was an honest moment.
00:31:47
Speaker 4: It was.
00:31:47
Speaker 2: It was very, it was hilarious. I have to say, it really threw off. She made a comment at the end of it still. She wasn't quite over it.
00:31:54
Speaker 1: You sure he's black?
00:31:58
Speaker 2: Oh, this brother. Well, no, it's not done. And again, there's a motion out there to still get an acquittal, I think.
00:32:05
Speaker 3: Correct.
00:32:06
Speaker 2: Is there still a motion out there to get this juror kicked off or something?
00:32:09
Speaker 3: There's several motions going on, but there's a hearing scheduled for the end of September.
00:32:13
Speaker 2: Okay. All right. We'll keep an eye on you folks, but always appreciate you spending a little time with us. I'm T.J., That's Robes. I'll call myself soon.