July 26, 2026
Spiritual Sunday: What A World Without God Would Look Like With Dr. Chris Palmer
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RSS Feed We continue our series on Sundays, offering some inspiration and guidance from some of the most brilliant spiritual leaders around the world. Today, hear our fascinating conversation with Dr. Chris Palmer, the Dean of the Barnett College of Ministry and Theology at Southeastern University in Florida. Dr. Chris is also the author of 10 books and has traveled the world searching for the meaning of life, helping guide the next generation of Christian leaders. He examines how faith can help us all in our growing crisis of loneliness and hopelessness, by exploring what the world would be like without God.
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00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey there everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Spiritual Sunday.
00:00:07
Speaker 2: Have we landed on that?
00:00:08
Speaker 3: We haven't agreed. It's not supposed to hard launch of title like that without I was talking about it first.
00:00:14
Speaker 1: Well I just did, so you got.
00:00:15
Speaker 3: Any better ideas?
00:00:16
Speaker 1: Okay, So Spiritual Sunday is what we're going with now, don't. We don't know if that's going to be the long standing title, but you get the gist of it. Sundays are a day for reflection, for inspiration, perhaps a way to digest what we've all been living through in our own lives and certainly in the headlines we're consuming, and so here to help us navigate all of life's difficulties and how we can look at it through a lens of faith, of dedication of spirituality. We're talking to spiritual leaders, faith leaders from all different segments of society, and today we are honored to have doctor Chris Palmer. He is the Dean of the Barnett College of Ministry and THEOTY at Southeastern University in Lakeland, Florida, but he has spent nearly twenty years in full time ministry as a lead pastor and missionary. He served in more than forty countries around the world. He is living what he's preaching. So, doctor Chris Palmer, we had a quick conversation before we started the podcast, and is it okay to call you Chris?
00:01:20
Speaker 2: That's perfect. That works for me.
00:01:21
Speaker 3: I like doctor Chris for some reason. I don't know what's wrong me. Well, so good to have you here in Robes. You just set this up about having you, Chris, help us through all that's going on in life. Sometimes we need help going through what just happened the past week. These are some really trying times right now. What would society look like without God?
00:01:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a wonderful question. I often say that we're in a society today that isn't militaristically atheist, but I think quietly agnostic, where people today have sort of forgotten about the idea of God. And one of the things that I've explored extensive in my research is what would a society look like if we had forgotten the presence of God? And I think that it leads to what some philosophers would call it nihilism, or a sense of quiet longing and quiet despair, a sense that human beings, I always say, aren't built and they're not designed to just live with themselves with no idea of transcendence. And I think sometimes that seems like a good idea until we face crisis, until we face a point where we're looking for something that is deeper than ourselves and something that is profoundly bigger than ourselves. And so I think, to answer your question, DJ, it looks like a very desparate society because all of us, at the end of the day, I don't think in and of ourselves are strong enough or have the ability to withstand life without something greater and looking beyond internally and something externally. And there's a Christian I point towards God.
00:02:59
Speaker 1: Doctor. How do you talk to people? And I know you've authored ten books right to people about or for those folks who don't believe't who are agnostic, who I've even often described myself sometimes as a hopeful agnostic. I was raised in the Catholic faith. My family is all very religious. I personally have struggled with the idea of this larger being and the stories that we grow up with in the Bible that I grew up reading. I know you did too as well, TJ. But what do you say to folks who do struggle with faith.
00:03:36
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a great question, and I have students that ask that question all the time.
00:03:41
Speaker 2: I begin with saying that to be a person of faith.
00:03:44
Speaker 4: I don't think requires one to have all of their questions answered. And at some point we have to ask ourselves, are we going to prioritize philosophical commitments and reason or are we going to prioritize side of ourselves that just is accepting of faith. And so, you know, there's a sort of a divide is do we wait until we have all of our questions answered to make the leap of faith? Or do we just make that leap? And I have seen there be, you know, a quiet despair for people that have to wait to all their questions to be answered. To enjoy faith, I think faith is very enjoyable even when there is a sense of mystery. And I think that's the beautiful thing about faith is that it invites us into mystery, and it invites us into a way of seeing the world where we don't have to be dependent of ourselves. I love reading classic literature. One of my favorite literature or authors, I should say, is Dostoevsky and Dostoevsky makes this point. And he's interesting because he sort of made his way back in vogue on book TikTok, and people are talking about him again. They've come along and they've started to read some of his works. And Dostoevsky would always make the point in his works. He would paint these pictures of these complicated characters who have tried to sort of move forward without faith. And you know, the surprising and stunning thing about his writings is those characters always collapse because at the end of the day, if.
00:05:13
Speaker 2: We move away the divine.
00:05:15
Speaker 4: What he makes the point is we often center something in our lives as divine or as transcendent, often ourselves, and that doesn't work out well with our psychology, it doesn't work out well with our humanness. It almost seems like what he tells us is similar to what Scripture tells us, what Holy Scripture tells us, and that the center of our humanity and to be most human, requires us to have some sort of hope in transcendence and in the divine. And I think when we place our hope in the divine, it comes with the satisfaction of maybe I don't have my questions answer, but at least I have hope and hope that I can hold on to in times of trouble.
00:05:54
Speaker 3: Doctor Christ you mentioned faith several times in that answer. You didn't say religion. Can you be faithful without the being religious or at least affiliated in some way to religion.
00:06:03
Speaker 4: I think religion has had a bad picture painted of it today because people often think religion and they think religious leaders that have let me down, in individuals that have failed me, And you know that's something there have been many times or religious leaders have let people down. But I also think when you look at religion, it's a way that is organized faith and it's often been good.
00:06:24
Speaker 2: You know.
00:06:24
Speaker 4: The scripture in the Book of James tells us that true religion is to take care of the poor. True religion is to serve those that are lesser. That's true religion. I think faith often leads us to a pure sense of religion, and leaders will always fail us and people that we care about and we put our faith in and hope for the best they do fail us. But I think that doesn't take away from the fact that what God has called us to is to be a community that works around what Holy scripture sets for us and that community is a place of strength. You know, my local church is something I belong to, and I can say I've been let down in my life, but when I have difficult times, when I have times that are almost unsustainable, it is amazing to have people that can come around me and show me true love, a true sense of community and support me. And especially there's an instance where my mother was very sick and we thought she was going to pass and I remember in that moment people coming to the hospital from her church giving me a hug and tell me they love us and.
00:07:25
Speaker 2: Just lifting me up.
00:07:25
Speaker 4: And you know, it's been years, but I'll never forget that, And so I think that's religion.
00:07:30
Speaker 2: I want that in my life.
00:07:32
Speaker 1: And jumping off of what you just said, you reminded me TJ of something one of my really good friends, Nachelle, once said she is still a practicing Catholic and look in the newsrooms that we came up in, it maybe isn't as necessarily en vogue. It's not something people talk about often. But she always said to me, I will never let religion define who God is to me. And I thought that was a really cool way to look at it. Can you believe in the teachings of Christ without being a Christian? Can you follow religious ideology without necessarily going to church? What do you think about that?
00:08:10
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think Christ there's something that's phenomenal about the way that Jesus taught, and Jesus constantly made it clear to us that I am the Way, the Truth, and the life. I think that as I've watched people along their spiritual journey, it starts off with the sins of there has to be something more than myself. And you know, as I've had students that have gone through religious experiences and have explored things, and yet there's a beauty in the way that Christ teaches, and Christ teaches sin and sin has separated us from God. But of course the gospel messages is that Christ came to redeem the world, and there's something relieving about placing our faith in Christ so that our sins can be forgiven. And so I think that as we explore. You know, there's an old saying that says those who wander aren't always lost, and I think that that leads us somewhere. But ultimately, as a Christian, I think that that ultimate place to get to is a place where you understand that Jesus is the Son of God and that there's something about placing your faith in Him that brings peace with God. And you know, it's interesting. I wrote an article recently about how in the UK there's a phenomenon that is going on and that there's a lot of empty churches and kind of people have disbanded religion, but at the same time they find themselves wandering into the church just to be alone, just to hear, and just to be silent. I remember there was a time where I was going through tremendous suffering and confusion in my life, especially on my religious journey, and I found myself in a hospital chapel, sitting there and I was quiet, and I was still, and my heart was drawn towards the beauty that was on the stained glass, and the stained glass had a scene of the virgin birth. There was something about the innocence of that child. There was something about the hope that he brought towards humanity that resonated with me. That why Christmas is the time of the year I think that all of us seem to rejoice, and it's because it represents giving it represents hope. It usually is a forgetting of ourselves. We remember the generosity of God and his kindness towards us, and it encourages us to be kind towards themselves. And so as a Christian, I think that the Christian message has brought about the best in humanity, and so I've always encouraged people to follow that journey out in hopes that it leads to Christ because myself I have been disappointed, but I don't think at the end of my life I'll ever be disappointed following Christ and serving and serving others the way He taught us to.
00:10:48
Speaker 3: Doctor Christy, I have to forget us here. We have to admit we don't go to church. We're not regular church girers, having gone quite some time. However, we spent a couple of weeks in Rome last summer and summer before, and to what you just said, we barely walk to pass a church in Rome without going in and just taking a quiet moment. I've never thought about that Robes, but you're right, we're drawn to it no matter who you are. And I wanted to ask, though I know you've been asked this question plenty, and every time I get a faith leader. I want to just want to hear how you answer it when people see everything going on in the world, A fine cyclospora, Aaron smoke coming, they got apocalypse looking in New York with this just it seems so much chaos. What is your answer when people ask how could God allow certain things to happen?
00:11:33
Speaker 2: Yeah?
00:11:33
Speaker 4: I think there's a couple of ways of answering this. First of all, I think that people today need hope, and I think we have been more connected than we've ever been.
00:11:43
Speaker 2: We've had you.
00:11:44
Speaker 4: Know, we have AI, we have quests to get to them, to get to Mars. Now we have technology that's supposed to be making our lives better. I think it just traveled with the airlines today and you feel like life's just not getting better. You know, it's getting a little bit more difficult than tough. Prices are going up going to the air I spend a lot of time in airports and I think to myself, Man, seventeen dollars for a sandwich is it's just not getting any easier?
00:12:07
Speaker 2: And that's I think people start to realize they need God. When we're paying seventeen dollars.
00:12:12
Speaker 3: How could God allow a sandwich to cost seventeen dollars, Doctor Christ.
00:12:19
Speaker 4: But I think DJ, you know, it's a great question. I'm okay with saying I don't know why certain suffering happens, and I don't know how to square. I did my thesis on the idea of the odysty. It's a big word, but essentially means how could a good and loving God allow suffering to happen? That has been the biggest philosophical question of I think the twentieth and twenty first century. But again, I don't think we need to have to answer that question precisely. You have either prioritized the fact that God is good and evil happens, or evil happens, How can God be good?
00:12:55
Speaker 2: And where do you start with that?
00:12:56
Speaker 4: And I think a lot of society has started with the fact evil happens. God can't be good, But I kind of start with as a faith person, God is good and I can't square why evil happens. But I do know when evil happens, people do run to God in spite of the fact that evil does happen. And when we do run to God, it does sustain our hearts and it does sustain our souls and there's something deeply satisfying about that. And I can't speak for every sufferer. I cannot speak for people that have lost their family members and loved ones in tragedies. But I can say that in meeting those people, they have found hope in God and refuge in God. You know, Jesus says, I've told you these things that in Me you might have peace. In this world you will have trouble. He doesn't explain it, he doesn't give us a modern answer for that, but he does encourage us. He says one of the strongest phrases in the Greek New Testament. He says, take heart, Take heart, I have overcome the world. And what I think what he means by take heart is he says, be encouraged. Find encouragement in my teachings and in faith. And you know, as he doesn't call us to look to ourselves to how to help ourselves. And I think we can be encouraged because the scriptures teach that God is in Christ Jesus reconciling the world to ourselves. You know, we see in the last book of the Bible there is a bitter cry that's prayed by the souls under the althar and they indict God, and they say, how long, o Lord, until you avenge our blood are unjust? That the unjustice that has happened to us, and the Bible takes us on this long journey to show us that God has not unhurt. God has hurt our prayers, he has not forgotten our prayers, and that He is at work in the world and He is squaring the.
00:14:39
Speaker 2: Wrongs to make them right.
00:14:40
Speaker 4: And I think when we tell people that, and not just tell people that, we show them love, We show them kindness, We smile at them, we encourage them, we don't lash out in anger to them. There's something about that, I think in our witness that gives them hope that even today, if I'm in the airport and everyone's frustrated sandwiches cost seventeen dollars, there might be something about the way I smile at somebody or show patience towards somebody that reminds them that God hasn't left this to ourselves. He has come and wherever you're at in your journey, whatever mistakes that you make, he forgives you, and he loves you, and he invites you to trust him. And I think when people feel that maybe all their philosophical questions don't have to be met.
00:15:24
Speaker 1: I love that. And doctor Chris, you kind of referenced this that you had at least one point where you were struggling. I don't know if you meant struggling with your faith or just struggling with the meaning of life. But can you talk about maybe some of those or if it is that one dark moment, and how you got through it and how you would take your personal experience and give other people hope.
00:15:48
Speaker 4: There was a profound moment I had in twenty eighteen. I was in Cambodia and I was in the killing fields of Poulpot where nineteen seventy nine the Kumar regime had committed a genocide against the Cambodian people. I was standing before a two hundred foot tower of human skulls that is still there to this day, and I was looking at those skulls that were retrieved from that field, and those were the actual skulls. They weren't replicas, they were the real skulls. It was the most horrifying thing I think I had seen up to that point in my life. And I remember looking at one of the skulls in particular, and thinking to myself, this was a human being like me. This was a person with hopes, This is a person with dreams. This was a person that had questions. This was a person who may have been in love. This is a person that had a favorite food. This was an individual who experienced the grossest of injustices. Who is their name? Where are they from? What's their story? And I'm asking the question I think we all asked the most, how could God allow something like this to happen? And that launched me into a six year period where I did a thesis of all things on suffering and the question of how could God be good? And I think I work through that, But we're left with one option. We either abandon God and we're left to ourselves. And I can tell you that I settled on the fact that the reason why that injustice happened is because injustices happen when we take upon it ourselves to live without God. There's nothing in me that can believe that the poppod regime was doing that out of love and the things that Jesus taught. But when we look to God, he sustains us. And so that led me to write or work without God. And why I believe God is so necessary in our lives is because when we follow God, when we serve Him, when we look to Him, life doesn't get worse. I do believe it gets better. And I think that the thing that settled it for me is do I want a life where I trust myself. I don't believe in me there is anything that is good that I can sustain and serve others with. But I think in Christ and in God, we begin to find the beauty, the true beauty of transcendence and true beauty of life. We look at sunsets, we look at babies crying, we look at hugs and smiles. Those are the things that God created us for Those are the joys that God gave us. Love is something that God gave us. Sex is something that God gave us. The joys of life have been given to us to enjoy by God. And I think that that's true beauty and it points us to Him. And so I can't answer all good reasons why, but I can say that life isn't fair, God is faithful.
00:18:25
Speaker 2: Life is better with God.
00:18:27
Speaker 3: I believe that, Doctor Chris, there you work with young folks as a university there, So I'm curious of what we've talked to someone. Last week we talked about how it's more a younger generation might be turning away and turned off by religion. It used to be a case where you say, oh, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual, and people would roll their eyes. Now it seems the other way. If you say you're religious, they roll their eyes. Where are the students and the young folks are teaching these where's their head on this idea of religion and actually being proud to stand up and say I'm this or that.
00:18:55
Speaker 2: I think gen Z is different from the millennials. Millennials. I'm a millennial. I think we were quite.
00:18:59
Speaker 4: Despairing, and we were disenchanted by the church because we began to see a lot of the mistakes. We saw mistakes being made by big church leaders that were Gen X and baby boomers. And then, you know, even our millennials had seen our own fallen. But I think that as life has been worn away and the veil of life has been worn thin by the propagation of so much media. You know, today we're scrolling, scrolling, we're doom scrolling, We're seeing information, and we feel like life I don't think has much structure. How do we believe something? How do we know who to believe what to believe? You know, postmodernity, everybody lives their own truth. I think that eventually gets to the end of the line and young people start looking for some sort of structure in their life. How do I structure my life? It is fascinating to note that there is a phenomenon taking place where young people are returning to churches. They're interested in the Catholic Church again, They're interested in Anglican Church. They're interested in the eulogy. It's not the liturgy, they're interested in the Eucharist. And I think one of the reasons to explain that is that they're looking for structure in their life. How do I know I should believe something? They look back to traditions say well, maybe we can stand on the shoulders of tradition again, because maybe there's something about two thousand years of history that I can place my faith in again. And so I've watched young people not only get back into church, but get back into to traditional church because it seems to be something sustainable and that they can structure their lives by, and I think young people are looking for truth again and who do I trust and what can I trust? And I think they go back and they look at something that's timeless and that's ancient. And so there's this appeal to ancient faith again that I find in our classroom. Young people are really looking to. And so I think it's an interesting.
00:20:42
Speaker 1: Phenomenon that is interesting. And with all of the resources out there. You mentioned social media, obviously, everyone and especially younger folks know how to go find anything out there to justify what they're feeling or explain what's happening in their lives. What where do you go? Who do you look to? Is there a faith leader? Is there a source that you trust that you think might lead people on this journey or at least help them along the way. I know the Bible obviously is the obvious answer, But beyond that, when you think about actually having something digital or some social aspect to it, what would what would you suggest people turn to?
00:21:24
Speaker 4: Yeah, the greatest blessing I've had in my life is my pastor. My pastor has been the same. Him and his wife have been my pastors for the last I think since two thousand and four. And so they've been in my life for quite a long time, and he and his wife have seen me through a lot of challenges and difficulties, and he knows me the best. And I think when I get out of line, he can call me and say, Chris, you need to rethink about this. And so it's profound to have, you know, the local church in my life, and especially a pastor that knows me and someone that can really speak into my life. And so I go to my pastor as well as I live within a community of believers who watched me live my life. And you know, it's so easy today to follow an influencer who doesn't observe me and doesn't know me, and doesn't you know, it isn't really concerned about me other than just my viewership. But to have somebody real in my life. You know, I always say this when it comes to education, is that the premium experience today is a human experience. And you know, with AI and all these things which I think are good, but to have a human in my life that looks over looks after me, it has some role of authority in my life.
00:22:28
Speaker 2: It's a blessing to say, Chris, you can't do that, Chris.
00:22:30
Speaker 4: You can't talk about people that way, you know, Chris, you can't think that way. Chris, your thinking is negative on that. Chris, You're better off doing this and can watch me live my life. It's such a blessing. I know that sometimes the messages is that's an oppressor, and that's oppressive, but.
00:22:46
Speaker 2: It could be.
00:22:46
Speaker 4: I think in a lot of instances that could be. But I think when it's done right and it's done the way that I believe God intends, it becomes a blessing. You know. Scripture says that you become like a tree that is planted by living water and it gives this imagery of fruit that springs up.
00:23:02
Speaker 2: And when you have mentorship in.
00:23:03
Speaker 4: Your life, a pastor, you know, but maybe somebody's listening they're not spiritual, and you know they're saying, well, what can I do?
00:23:09
Speaker 2: Perhaps a coach or somebody in your life that is around a teacher.
00:23:13
Speaker 4: You know, we have professors that are great at Southeastern and they they're they're investing in students, and students are always writing me as a deano. I love this professor. I love this professor. You know, but somebody should be observing our lives that can speak into it. And I think it's a blessing when we've given that person a place to where they could correct it is in a loving way and say, hey, you're not going to get the best of your life if you do that.
00:23:37
Speaker 2: And I think that's a great thing.
00:23:39
Speaker 3: I love that we're laughing because we say all the time we see something happen somewhere, if someone does something stupid, and then we say, they have nobody in their life that loves.
00:23:48
Speaker 1: Them, there's no one there to help guide them and tell them stop. But it's true, like it's funny. I asked the question talking about social media or online resources, and I do think that that is I love that you pointed out how about human to human contact, how about somebody who knows you, who can observe you, who can actually is invested in you in a personal, one on one way. I think sometimes devalue that based on all the other resources we have out there, and I think it's pretty cool that you point that out. And I want to ask you one last question because I do think it's so incredible the traveling you've done around the world, and we are big world travelers and the experience and exposure when you have to other people, other communities, other ways of doing things, It opens your heart, it opens your mind. And I just I hearing that story from Cambodia and the Khmer rousion, all of the atrocities that you personally witness and you were able to actually take that in and make that a part of your journey. What do you think you learned much from going outside your comfort zone, going outside Florida, going outside the United States? What has that given you in terms of your spiritual and your faith journey.
00:25:12
Speaker 4: That's a great question, and I'm so glad you asked it. I think everybody should travel, and I think traveling is the best education. I think one of the best things it's done is it's gotten me away from the news. And you know, the news has a way of painting the worst picture about everything. When we go to other cultures and we listen to people, we find out that in spite of all of our differences, we're all the same. We all have hopes, we all have dreams, we all fall in love, we all get hungry, we all get thirsty, we all get tired when it's past our bedtime, and you know, we all want the best. Whatever culture I've been in, they wanted the best for their kids, you know. And I can't tell you how kind I've been treated in every single culture I've ever been in. I've been everywhere, and they're so kind and they're so nice. And so I think that it has taught me that we should slow down, believe the best about people. We should show kindness to everybody. We should treat you know that Jesus teaches the Golden rule, treat others the way that you want to be treated. Many countries, people saw me as the foreigner, they saw me as the odd person.
00:26:17
Speaker 2: They've shown me grace, They've shown me kindness.
00:26:20
Speaker 4: In spite of the differences in our countries' politics and even the differences of religion, They've been gracious and kind to me. And so I think it has given me an aptitude. Of course, I do believe. I have my beliefs, they have their beliefs. But it's given me an opportunity to say that those differences of beliefs are not a place for us to show hostility towards one another. It's a place where we can sit down at the same table and discuss and believe the best because at the end of the day, we are going through the same struggles. We're dealing with the same thing, and we owe it to each other as members of humanity, to love one another, to hear one another, and to make peace with one another. And I think that being a traveler it teaches you that because guess what, if you want to travel, that's how you have to do it. There's no other way of doing it successfully. But it teaches you that it gives you empathy for humanity. And I think that when we start with that, I think that's a great way to live our faith and do it in a way. I think in doing it that way, it pleases God. And so I would encourage young people if you have the time to take a gap year, you're not wasting it.
00:27:23
Speaker 2: It is not a waste. Take a gap here travel.
00:27:25
Speaker 4: We tell our students we send out at su forty seven missions trips every single year, and I charge them. I say, hey, while you're doing missions work, while you're painting houses, while you're feeding the orphans, listen to them, treat them like people, hear them, learn from them. I think there's something about that that helps us to pay it for it and brings honor to God.
00:27:48
Speaker 1: That's so beautiful, and that's the perfect way to end this conversation. We appreciate you so much, doctor Chris Palmer. You have been just I mean, my heart literally feels warm listening to you. I know your students must feel the same way. And I actually want to go out and get your book, your latest book. You have ten of them, as I mentioned, your latest book was released the spring, correct, this past spring.
00:28:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called The World Without God, and I use a layer.
00:28:17
Speaker 4: I wanted to put a little bit of fiction into it, and so I kind of, you know, it gets hopeful chapters eleven and twelve. I created characters in there, and I think that the book portrays what would it be like to live in a world without God. And I think the strong point in the reviews has been I really don't give an answer. I let you, as the reader, make the conclusion. And I'm not trying to give cheap answers and modern answers. I'm just trying to let you see a picture of what it would be like and to maybe get somebody to see I don't get anything out of this if you believe in God. My thing is is I think you get something out of it if you believe in God, and that is more hope and less despair.
00:28:52
Speaker 3: We need it these days. We appreciate you having some time make me some time here for us. Please tell your parents we said hello.
00:29:00
Speaker 2: They will. Yeah, they're big fans. They when I told them I was going to be on, they were they. I think, my mom, I'm so proud of you.
00:29:07
Speaker 3: So usually they tell their kids don't go on with those two. So it's nice to hear doctor Chris goes. So good to see you. We certainly hope to see you down the road.
00:29:18
Speaker 1: Man.
00:29:18
Speaker 2: Thank you, appreciate it.
00:29:19
Speaker 3: Thank you,
Speaker 1: Hey there everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Spiritual Sunday.
00:00:07
Speaker 2: Have we landed on that?
00:00:08
Speaker 3: We haven't agreed. It's not supposed to hard launch of title like that without I was talking about it first.
00:00:14
Speaker 1: Well I just did, so you got.
00:00:15
Speaker 3: Any better ideas?
00:00:16
Speaker 1: Okay, So Spiritual Sunday is what we're going with now, don't. We don't know if that's going to be the long standing title, but you get the gist of it. Sundays are a day for reflection, for inspiration, perhaps a way to digest what we've all been living through in our own lives and certainly in the headlines we're consuming, and so here to help us navigate all of life's difficulties and how we can look at it through a lens of faith, of dedication of spirituality. We're talking to spiritual leaders, faith leaders from all different segments of society, and today we are honored to have doctor Chris Palmer. He is the Dean of the Barnett College of Ministry and THEOTY at Southeastern University in Lakeland, Florida, but he has spent nearly twenty years in full time ministry as a lead pastor and missionary. He served in more than forty countries around the world. He is living what he's preaching. So, doctor Chris Palmer, we had a quick conversation before we started the podcast, and is it okay to call you Chris?
00:01:20
Speaker 2: That's perfect. That works for me.
00:01:21
Speaker 3: I like doctor Chris for some reason. I don't know what's wrong me. Well, so good to have you here in Robes. You just set this up about having you, Chris, help us through all that's going on in life. Sometimes we need help going through what just happened the past week. These are some really trying times right now. What would society look like without God?
00:01:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a wonderful question. I often say that we're in a society today that isn't militaristically atheist, but I think quietly agnostic, where people today have sort of forgotten about the idea of God. And one of the things that I've explored extensive in my research is what would a society look like if we had forgotten the presence of God? And I think that it leads to what some philosophers would call it nihilism, or a sense of quiet longing and quiet despair, a sense that human beings, I always say, aren't built and they're not designed to just live with themselves with no idea of transcendence. And I think sometimes that seems like a good idea until we face crisis, until we face a point where we're looking for something that is deeper than ourselves and something that is profoundly bigger than ourselves. And so I think, to answer your question, DJ, it looks like a very desparate society because all of us, at the end of the day, I don't think in and of ourselves are strong enough or have the ability to withstand life without something greater and looking beyond internally and something externally. And there's a Christian I point towards God.
00:02:59
Speaker 1: Doctor. How do you talk to people? And I know you've authored ten books right to people about or for those folks who don't believe't who are agnostic, who I've even often described myself sometimes as a hopeful agnostic. I was raised in the Catholic faith. My family is all very religious. I personally have struggled with the idea of this larger being and the stories that we grow up with in the Bible that I grew up reading. I know you did too as well, TJ. But what do you say to folks who do struggle with faith.
00:03:36
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a great question, and I have students that ask that question all the time.
00:03:41
Speaker 2: I begin with saying that to be a person of faith.
00:03:44
Speaker 4: I don't think requires one to have all of their questions answered. And at some point we have to ask ourselves, are we going to prioritize philosophical commitments and reason or are we going to prioritize side of ourselves that just is accepting of faith. And so, you know, there's a sort of a divide is do we wait until we have all of our questions answered to make the leap of faith? Or do we just make that leap? And I have seen there be, you know, a quiet despair for people that have to wait to all their questions to be answered. To enjoy faith, I think faith is very enjoyable even when there is a sense of mystery. And I think that's the beautiful thing about faith is that it invites us into mystery, and it invites us into a way of seeing the world where we don't have to be dependent of ourselves. I love reading classic literature. One of my favorite literature or authors, I should say, is Dostoevsky and Dostoevsky makes this point. And he's interesting because he sort of made his way back in vogue on book TikTok, and people are talking about him again. They've come along and they've started to read some of his works. And Dostoevsky would always make the point in his works. He would paint these pictures of these complicated characters who have tried to sort of move forward without faith. And you know, the surprising and stunning thing about his writings is those characters always collapse because at the end of the day, if.
00:05:13
Speaker 2: We move away the divine.
00:05:15
Speaker 4: What he makes the point is we often center something in our lives as divine or as transcendent, often ourselves, and that doesn't work out well with our psychology, it doesn't work out well with our humanness. It almost seems like what he tells us is similar to what Scripture tells us, what Holy Scripture tells us, and that the center of our humanity and to be most human, requires us to have some sort of hope in transcendence and in the divine. And I think when we place our hope in the divine, it comes with the satisfaction of maybe I don't have my questions answer, but at least I have hope and hope that I can hold on to in times of trouble.
00:05:54
Speaker 3: Doctor Christ you mentioned faith several times in that answer. You didn't say religion. Can you be faithful without the being religious or at least affiliated in some way to religion.
00:06:03
Speaker 4: I think religion has had a bad picture painted of it today because people often think religion and they think religious leaders that have let me down, in individuals that have failed me, And you know that's something there have been many times or religious leaders have let people down. But I also think when you look at religion, it's a way that is organized faith and it's often been good.
00:06:24
Speaker 2: You know.
00:06:24
Speaker 4: The scripture in the Book of James tells us that true religion is to take care of the poor. True religion is to serve those that are lesser. That's true religion. I think faith often leads us to a pure sense of religion, and leaders will always fail us and people that we care about and we put our faith in and hope for the best they do fail us. But I think that doesn't take away from the fact that what God has called us to is to be a community that works around what Holy scripture sets for us and that community is a place of strength. You know, my local church is something I belong to, and I can say I've been let down in my life, but when I have difficult times, when I have times that are almost unsustainable, it is amazing to have people that can come around me and show me true love, a true sense of community and support me. And especially there's an instance where my mother was very sick and we thought she was going to pass and I remember in that moment people coming to the hospital from her church giving me a hug and tell me they love us and.
00:07:25
Speaker 2: Just lifting me up.
00:07:25
Speaker 4: And you know, it's been years, but I'll never forget that, And so I think that's religion.
00:07:30
Speaker 2: I want that in my life.
00:07:32
Speaker 1: And jumping off of what you just said, you reminded me TJ of something one of my really good friends, Nachelle, once said she is still a practicing Catholic and look in the newsrooms that we came up in, it maybe isn't as necessarily en vogue. It's not something people talk about often. But she always said to me, I will never let religion define who God is to me. And I thought that was a really cool way to look at it. Can you believe in the teachings of Christ without being a Christian? Can you follow religious ideology without necessarily going to church? What do you think about that?
00:08:10
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think Christ there's something that's phenomenal about the way that Jesus taught, and Jesus constantly made it clear to us that I am the Way, the Truth, and the life. I think that as I've watched people along their spiritual journey, it starts off with the sins of there has to be something more than myself. And you know, as I've had students that have gone through religious experiences and have explored things, and yet there's a beauty in the way that Christ teaches, and Christ teaches sin and sin has separated us from God. But of course the gospel messages is that Christ came to redeem the world, and there's something relieving about placing our faith in Christ so that our sins can be forgiven. And so I think that as we explore. You know, there's an old saying that says those who wander aren't always lost, and I think that that leads us somewhere. But ultimately, as a Christian, I think that that ultimate place to get to is a place where you understand that Jesus is the Son of God and that there's something about placing your faith in Him that brings peace with God. And you know, it's interesting. I wrote an article recently about how in the UK there's a phenomenon that is going on and that there's a lot of empty churches and kind of people have disbanded religion, but at the same time they find themselves wandering into the church just to be alone, just to hear, and just to be silent. I remember there was a time where I was going through tremendous suffering and confusion in my life, especially on my religious journey, and I found myself in a hospital chapel, sitting there and I was quiet, and I was still, and my heart was drawn towards the beauty that was on the stained glass, and the stained glass had a scene of the virgin birth. There was something about the innocence of that child. There was something about the hope that he brought towards humanity that resonated with me. That why Christmas is the time of the year I think that all of us seem to rejoice, and it's because it represents giving it represents hope. It usually is a forgetting of ourselves. We remember the generosity of God and his kindness towards us, and it encourages us to be kind towards themselves. And so as a Christian, I think that the Christian message has brought about the best in humanity, and so I've always encouraged people to follow that journey out in hopes that it leads to Christ because myself I have been disappointed, but I don't think at the end of my life I'll ever be disappointed following Christ and serving and serving others the way He taught us to.
00:10:48
Speaker 3: Doctor Christy, I have to forget us here. We have to admit we don't go to church. We're not regular church girers, having gone quite some time. However, we spent a couple of weeks in Rome last summer and summer before, and to what you just said, we barely walk to pass a church in Rome without going in and just taking a quiet moment. I've never thought about that Robes, but you're right, we're drawn to it no matter who you are. And I wanted to ask, though I know you've been asked this question plenty, and every time I get a faith leader. I want to just want to hear how you answer it when people see everything going on in the world, A fine cyclospora, Aaron smoke coming, they got apocalypse looking in New York with this just it seems so much chaos. What is your answer when people ask how could God allow certain things to happen?
00:11:33
Speaker 2: Yeah?
00:11:33
Speaker 4: I think there's a couple of ways of answering this. First of all, I think that people today need hope, and I think we have been more connected than we've ever been.
00:11:43
Speaker 2: We've had you.
00:11:44
Speaker 4: Know, we have AI, we have quests to get to them, to get to Mars. Now we have technology that's supposed to be making our lives better. I think it just traveled with the airlines today and you feel like life's just not getting better. You know, it's getting a little bit more difficult than tough. Prices are going up going to the air I spend a lot of time in airports and I think to myself, Man, seventeen dollars for a sandwich is it's just not getting any easier?
00:12:07
Speaker 2: And that's I think people start to realize they need God. When we're paying seventeen dollars.
00:12:12
Speaker 3: How could God allow a sandwich to cost seventeen dollars, Doctor Christ.
00:12:19
Speaker 4: But I think DJ, you know, it's a great question. I'm okay with saying I don't know why certain suffering happens, and I don't know how to square. I did my thesis on the idea of the odysty. It's a big word, but essentially means how could a good and loving God allow suffering to happen? That has been the biggest philosophical question of I think the twentieth and twenty first century. But again, I don't think we need to have to answer that question precisely. You have either prioritized the fact that God is good and evil happens, or evil happens, How can God be good?
00:12:55
Speaker 2: And where do you start with that?
00:12:56
Speaker 4: And I think a lot of society has started with the fact evil happens. God can't be good, But I kind of start with as a faith person, God is good and I can't square why evil happens. But I do know when evil happens, people do run to God in spite of the fact that evil does happen. And when we do run to God, it does sustain our hearts and it does sustain our souls and there's something deeply satisfying about that. And I can't speak for every sufferer. I cannot speak for people that have lost their family members and loved ones in tragedies. But I can say that in meeting those people, they have found hope in God and refuge in God. You know, Jesus says, I've told you these things that in Me you might have peace. In this world you will have trouble. He doesn't explain it, he doesn't give us a modern answer for that, but he does encourage us. He says one of the strongest phrases in the Greek New Testament. He says, take heart, Take heart, I have overcome the world. And what I think what he means by take heart is he says, be encouraged. Find encouragement in my teachings and in faith. And you know, as he doesn't call us to look to ourselves to how to help ourselves. And I think we can be encouraged because the scriptures teach that God is in Christ Jesus reconciling the world to ourselves. You know, we see in the last book of the Bible there is a bitter cry that's prayed by the souls under the althar and they indict God, and they say, how long, o Lord, until you avenge our blood are unjust? That the unjustice that has happened to us, and the Bible takes us on this long journey to show us that God has not unhurt. God has hurt our prayers, he has not forgotten our prayers, and that He is at work in the world and He is squaring the.
00:14:39
Speaker 2: Wrongs to make them right.
00:14:40
Speaker 4: And I think when we tell people that, and not just tell people that, we show them love, We show them kindness, We smile at them, we encourage them, we don't lash out in anger to them. There's something about that, I think in our witness that gives them hope that even today, if I'm in the airport and everyone's frustrated sandwiches cost seventeen dollars, there might be something about the way I smile at somebody or show patience towards somebody that reminds them that God hasn't left this to ourselves. He has come and wherever you're at in your journey, whatever mistakes that you make, he forgives you, and he loves you, and he invites you to trust him. And I think when people feel that maybe all their philosophical questions don't have to be met.
00:15:24
Speaker 1: I love that. And doctor Chris, you kind of referenced this that you had at least one point where you were struggling. I don't know if you meant struggling with your faith or just struggling with the meaning of life. But can you talk about maybe some of those or if it is that one dark moment, and how you got through it and how you would take your personal experience and give other people hope.
00:15:48
Speaker 4: There was a profound moment I had in twenty eighteen. I was in Cambodia and I was in the killing fields of Poulpot where nineteen seventy nine the Kumar regime had committed a genocide against the Cambodian people. I was standing before a two hundred foot tower of human skulls that is still there to this day, and I was looking at those skulls that were retrieved from that field, and those were the actual skulls. They weren't replicas, they were the real skulls. It was the most horrifying thing I think I had seen up to that point in my life. And I remember looking at one of the skulls in particular, and thinking to myself, this was a human being like me. This was a person with hopes, This is a person with dreams. This was a person that had questions. This was a person who may have been in love. This is a person that had a favorite food. This was an individual who experienced the grossest of injustices. Who is their name? Where are they from? What's their story? And I'm asking the question I think we all asked the most, how could God allow something like this to happen? And that launched me into a six year period where I did a thesis of all things on suffering and the question of how could God be good? And I think I work through that, But we're left with one option. We either abandon God and we're left to ourselves. And I can tell you that I settled on the fact that the reason why that injustice happened is because injustices happen when we take upon it ourselves to live without God. There's nothing in me that can believe that the poppod regime was doing that out of love and the things that Jesus taught. But when we look to God, he sustains us. And so that led me to write or work without God. And why I believe God is so necessary in our lives is because when we follow God, when we serve Him, when we look to Him, life doesn't get worse. I do believe it gets better. And I think that the thing that settled it for me is do I want a life where I trust myself. I don't believe in me there is anything that is good that I can sustain and serve others with. But I think in Christ and in God, we begin to find the beauty, the true beauty of transcendence and true beauty of life. We look at sunsets, we look at babies crying, we look at hugs and smiles. Those are the things that God created us for Those are the joys that God gave us. Love is something that God gave us. Sex is something that God gave us. The joys of life have been given to us to enjoy by God. And I think that that's true beauty and it points us to Him. And so I can't answer all good reasons why, but I can say that life isn't fair, God is faithful.
00:18:25
Speaker 2: Life is better with God.
00:18:27
Speaker 3: I believe that, Doctor Chris, there you work with young folks as a university there, So I'm curious of what we've talked to someone. Last week we talked about how it's more a younger generation might be turning away and turned off by religion. It used to be a case where you say, oh, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual, and people would roll their eyes. Now it seems the other way. If you say you're religious, they roll their eyes. Where are the students and the young folks are teaching these where's their head on this idea of religion and actually being proud to stand up and say I'm this or that.
00:18:55
Speaker 2: I think gen Z is different from the millennials. Millennials. I'm a millennial. I think we were quite.
00:18:59
Speaker 4: Despairing, and we were disenchanted by the church because we began to see a lot of the mistakes. We saw mistakes being made by big church leaders that were Gen X and baby boomers. And then, you know, even our millennials had seen our own fallen. But I think that as life has been worn away and the veil of life has been worn thin by the propagation of so much media. You know, today we're scrolling, scrolling, we're doom scrolling, We're seeing information, and we feel like life I don't think has much structure. How do we believe something? How do we know who to believe what to believe? You know, postmodernity, everybody lives their own truth. I think that eventually gets to the end of the line and young people start looking for some sort of structure in their life. How do I structure my life? It is fascinating to note that there is a phenomenon taking place where young people are returning to churches. They're interested in the Catholic Church again, They're interested in Anglican Church. They're interested in the eulogy. It's not the liturgy, they're interested in the Eucharist. And I think one of the reasons to explain that is that they're looking for structure in their life. How do I know I should believe something? They look back to traditions say well, maybe we can stand on the shoulders of tradition again, because maybe there's something about two thousand years of history that I can place my faith in again. And so I've watched young people not only get back into church, but get back into to traditional church because it seems to be something sustainable and that they can structure their lives by, and I think young people are looking for truth again and who do I trust and what can I trust? And I think they go back and they look at something that's timeless and that's ancient. And so there's this appeal to ancient faith again that I find in our classroom. Young people are really looking to. And so I think it's an interesting.
00:20:42
Speaker 1: Phenomenon that is interesting. And with all of the resources out there. You mentioned social media, obviously, everyone and especially younger folks know how to go find anything out there to justify what they're feeling or explain what's happening in their lives. What where do you go? Who do you look to? Is there a faith leader? Is there a source that you trust that you think might lead people on this journey or at least help them along the way. I know the Bible obviously is the obvious answer, But beyond that, when you think about actually having something digital or some social aspect to it, what would what would you suggest people turn to?
00:21:24
Speaker 4: Yeah, the greatest blessing I've had in my life is my pastor. My pastor has been the same. Him and his wife have been my pastors for the last I think since two thousand and four. And so they've been in my life for quite a long time, and he and his wife have seen me through a lot of challenges and difficulties, and he knows me the best. And I think when I get out of line, he can call me and say, Chris, you need to rethink about this. And so it's profound to have, you know, the local church in my life, and especially a pastor that knows me and someone that can really speak into my life. And so I go to my pastor as well as I live within a community of believers who watched me live my life. And you know, it's so easy today to follow an influencer who doesn't observe me and doesn't know me, and doesn't you know, it isn't really concerned about me other than just my viewership. But to have somebody real in my life. You know, I always say this when it comes to education, is that the premium experience today is a human experience. And you know, with AI and all these things which I think are good, but to have a human in my life that looks over looks after me, it has some role of authority in my life.
00:22:28
Speaker 2: It's a blessing to say, Chris, you can't do that, Chris.
00:22:30
Speaker 4: You can't talk about people that way, you know, Chris, you can't think that way. Chris, your thinking is negative on that. Chris, You're better off doing this and can watch me live my life. It's such a blessing. I know that sometimes the messages is that's an oppressor, and that's oppressive, but.
00:22:46
Speaker 2: It could be.
00:22:46
Speaker 4: I think in a lot of instances that could be. But I think when it's done right and it's done the way that I believe God intends, it becomes a blessing. You know. Scripture says that you become like a tree that is planted by living water and it gives this imagery of fruit that springs up.
00:23:02
Speaker 2: And when you have mentorship in.
00:23:03
Speaker 4: Your life, a pastor, you know, but maybe somebody's listening they're not spiritual, and you know they're saying, well, what can I do?
00:23:09
Speaker 2: Perhaps a coach or somebody in your life that is around a teacher.
00:23:13
Speaker 4: You know, we have professors that are great at Southeastern and they they're they're investing in students, and students are always writing me as a deano. I love this professor. I love this professor. You know, but somebody should be observing our lives that can speak into it. And I think it's a blessing when we've given that person a place to where they could correct it is in a loving way and say, hey, you're not going to get the best of your life if you do that.
00:23:37
Speaker 2: And I think that's a great thing.
00:23:39
Speaker 3: I love that we're laughing because we say all the time we see something happen somewhere, if someone does something stupid, and then we say, they have nobody in their life that loves.
00:23:48
Speaker 1: Them, there's no one there to help guide them and tell them stop. But it's true, like it's funny. I asked the question talking about social media or online resources, and I do think that that is I love that you pointed out how about human to human contact, how about somebody who knows you, who can observe you, who can actually is invested in you in a personal, one on one way. I think sometimes devalue that based on all the other resources we have out there, and I think it's pretty cool that you point that out. And I want to ask you one last question because I do think it's so incredible the traveling you've done around the world, and we are big world travelers and the experience and exposure when you have to other people, other communities, other ways of doing things, It opens your heart, it opens your mind. And I just I hearing that story from Cambodia and the Khmer rousion, all of the atrocities that you personally witness and you were able to actually take that in and make that a part of your journey. What do you think you learned much from going outside your comfort zone, going outside Florida, going outside the United States? What has that given you in terms of your spiritual and your faith journey.
00:25:12
Speaker 4: That's a great question, and I'm so glad you asked it. I think everybody should travel, and I think traveling is the best education. I think one of the best things it's done is it's gotten me away from the news. And you know, the news has a way of painting the worst picture about everything. When we go to other cultures and we listen to people, we find out that in spite of all of our differences, we're all the same. We all have hopes, we all have dreams, we all fall in love, we all get hungry, we all get thirsty, we all get tired when it's past our bedtime, and you know, we all want the best. Whatever culture I've been in, they wanted the best for their kids, you know. And I can't tell you how kind I've been treated in every single culture I've ever been in. I've been everywhere, and they're so kind and they're so nice. And so I think that it has taught me that we should slow down, believe the best about people. We should show kindness to everybody. We should treat you know that Jesus teaches the Golden rule, treat others the way that you want to be treated. Many countries, people saw me as the foreigner, they saw me as the odd person.
00:26:17
Speaker 2: They've shown me grace, They've shown me kindness.
00:26:20
Speaker 4: In spite of the differences in our countries' politics and even the differences of religion, They've been gracious and kind to me. And so I think it has given me an aptitude. Of course, I do believe. I have my beliefs, they have their beliefs. But it's given me an opportunity to say that those differences of beliefs are not a place for us to show hostility towards one another. It's a place where we can sit down at the same table and discuss and believe the best because at the end of the day, we are going through the same struggles. We're dealing with the same thing, and we owe it to each other as members of humanity, to love one another, to hear one another, and to make peace with one another. And I think that being a traveler it teaches you that because guess what, if you want to travel, that's how you have to do it. There's no other way of doing it successfully. But it teaches you that it gives you empathy for humanity. And I think that when we start with that, I think that's a great way to live our faith and do it in a way. I think in doing it that way, it pleases God. And so I would encourage young people if you have the time to take a gap year, you're not wasting it.
00:27:23
Speaker 2: It is not a waste. Take a gap here travel.
00:27:25
Speaker 4: We tell our students we send out at su forty seven missions trips every single year, and I charge them. I say, hey, while you're doing missions work, while you're painting houses, while you're feeding the orphans, listen to them, treat them like people, hear them, learn from them. I think there's something about that that helps us to pay it for it and brings honor to God.
00:27:48
Speaker 1: That's so beautiful, and that's the perfect way to end this conversation. We appreciate you so much, doctor Chris Palmer. You have been just I mean, my heart literally feels warm listening to you. I know your students must feel the same way. And I actually want to go out and get your book, your latest book. You have ten of them, as I mentioned, your latest book was released the spring, correct, this past spring.
00:28:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called The World Without God, and I use a layer.
00:28:17
Speaker 4: I wanted to put a little bit of fiction into it, and so I kind of, you know, it gets hopeful chapters eleven and twelve. I created characters in there, and I think that the book portrays what would it be like to live in a world without God. And I think the strong point in the reviews has been I really don't give an answer. I let you, as the reader, make the conclusion. And I'm not trying to give cheap answers and modern answers. I'm just trying to let you see a picture of what it would be like and to maybe get somebody to see I don't get anything out of this if you believe in God. My thing is is I think you get something out of it if you believe in God, and that is more hope and less despair.
00:28:52
Speaker 3: We need it these days. We appreciate you having some time make me some time here for us. Please tell your parents we said hello.
00:29:00
Speaker 2: They will. Yeah, they're big fans. They when I told them I was going to be on, they were they. I think, my mom, I'm so proud of you.
00:29:07
Speaker 3: So usually they tell their kids don't go on with those two. So it's nice to hear doctor Chris goes. So good to see you. We certainly hope to see you down the road.
00:29:18
Speaker 1: Man.
00:29:18
Speaker 2: Thank you, appreciate it.
00:29:19
Speaker 3: Thank you,