Aug. 30, 2026
Spiritual Sunday: Religious Freedom and Finding Common Ground with Dr. Guthrie Graves-Fitzsimmons
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RSS Feed Dr. Guthrie Graves-Fitzsimmons joins Amy & T.J. for Spiritual Sunday to talk about the role of faith in public life, religious freedom and how people with deeply different beliefs can still find common ground. He shares why he believes religion is at its best when it leads with love, mercy and respect rather than division. Guthrie also opens up about his own faith, the power of prayer and community, and how running nine marathons has shaped the way he thinks about perseverance, humility and the shared human experience.
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00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody, and welcome to our spiritual Sunday here on Amy and TJ, and we're really excited about our next guest. He's a southern gentleman, just like you, TJ.
00:00:14
Speaker 2: Oh, come on now. It's Arkansas and Texas. We've got a few problems here, but it's Sunday, so let's keep this peaceful.
00:00:20
Speaker 1: Keep it civil. And yes, Dr. Guthrie Graves Fitzsimmons is his name. Sounds very impressive, and even more so because we just learned the doctor was just added to the front line. of his name, which is something I think he should be very impressed by. Yes, congratulations, but also a leading voice on religion, politics, religious freedom, and the role faith plays in the American public life. And I think it should be pointed out you're an ordained Baptist deacon, and perhaps even more impressive to us, a nine-time marathoner. Welcome to the podcast. And you said we can call you Guthrie, but I feel like you should really lean into the doctor thing.
00:01:01
Speaker 2: I like the doctor thing.
00:01:01
Speaker 3: Dr.
00:01:02
Speaker 1: Guthrie?
00:01:04
Speaker 4: Well, thanks, y'all.
00:01:05
Speaker 3: It's still new to me, the whole doctor of it, but it's an honor to be on with you and to have this discussion.
00:01:10
Speaker 2: It was good to have you. I promise you, though, if I had Dr. Holmes, I would even force her to call me doctor around the house. So congrats.
00:01:17
Speaker 4: It's going to be Amy and Dr. Holmes podcast.
00:01:19
Speaker 1: That's it.
00:01:20
Speaker 2: We would change the name, brother, I promise. But congratulations. It's good to have you here. We talked about religion and society. Do we need more of it? Do we need more religion in our society? Because sometimes it gets a bad rap.
00:01:33
Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of bad religion in our society. And so what I think we need is good religion, which is honoring, you know, this is the 250th anniversary of the United States of America and the signing of the Declaration of Independence. And our nation is committed to having many religions and honoring people that want nothing to do with religion at all in our society. And so a better role for religion in public life is, I think, what we're after, not trying to get religion out, but trying to say people of different religions can all live here peaceably together.
00:02:05
Speaker 2: Hey, Dr. Guthrie, what do you mean by bad religions?
00:02:09
Speaker 3: I think we have religious extremists that are using religion and a very narrow understanding of religion to try to impose their will on the rest of us. So, for instance, the vast majority of Americans who are religious don't want to ban abortion. The vast majority of Americans don't want to... you know, do away with same-sex marriage. Yet a very narrow slice of people are trying to use a very exclusive form of religion. And that's why religion, I think, it's a really bad rap from people. And yet most people are going about their faith, trying to live it out, love their neighbor, do what Jesus commanded as a Christian and, you know, myself as a Baptist.
00:02:50
Speaker 4: But if you're a different religion, people are trying to live their lives.
00:02:53
Speaker 3: And yet we see this politicized kind of extremist faith That is giving all of religion a bad name.
00:03:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm always curious about this, and we see it pop up maybe even more so now than even before. But you've got this idea that we are one nation under God on one hand, and then on the other hand, we have this separation of church and state. And yet we constantly see religion being evoked, as you point out, to justify certain behaviors. What is the role of religion in American politics?
00:03:32
Speaker 3: The role is everyone gets to practice their faith freely from government interference. The separation of church and state was originally intended to keep the government out of interfering in the practices of the church. And we have seen so many different religious communities flourish in the United States history because of that separation of church and state. It's not about keeping people of faith out of politics, out of public life. It's saying religion and government have different roles and institutionally separating them allows religion to flourish and allows our laws to be decided by people, by all Americans. You don't have to be any one religious faith to vote. and our laws should be accessible to everybody. And I know it's sometimes hard to really figure out all the details and where the line should be drawn. And take someone like Reverend Raphael Warnock, who's a senator and a pastor, right?
00:04:30
Speaker 4: Reverend Warnock, Reverend Dr. Warnock, I should say.
00:04:33
Speaker 3: We went to the same seminary, Union Seminary in New York, and Reverend Warnock is both a pastor and a senator, right?
00:04:39
Speaker 4: But those roles are different.
00:04:41
Speaker 3: He preaches on Sunday and he governs And so we are not trying to get religion out of public life. We're trying to say there's different roles for religion in government.
00:04:49
Speaker 2: Okay, different roles. I'm glad you mentioned Reverend Warnock. I spent a lot of time with him down in Atlanta. He's an Atlanta guy. I spent a lot of time. Love, Pastor, Senator Warnock. Senator, Doctor, Reverend. Yes. You said we're not trying to get it out. But what happens, though, when you hear political leaders... say that this is a Christian nation? When you hear our political leaders say that, what does that mean? Is there anything wrong with that?
00:05:20
Speaker 3: Well, I like to say, well, what do you mean by that? We are a majority Christian nation.
00:05:24
Speaker 4: That's true.
00:05:25
Speaker 3: About two-thirds of Americans still identify as Christian.
00:05:28
Speaker 4: And so, you know.
00:05:30
Speaker 3: A large number of Americans are Christians, but beneath that, there's many different types of Christians, right? There's Catholics, there's evangelicals, there's mainline Protestants, there's so many the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
00:05:43
Speaker 4: There are so many different types of Christian.
00:05:46
Speaker 3: And so there's one sense in which saying we're a Christian nation, people mean a very narrow sense of Christian, but also really what we are at our essence in the United States and the way we were set up as a country and that the promise of the United States that we are still trying to fulfill today is to be a religious freedom nation. And so we do not have one religion that is in the Constitution. The Framers put religion in the Constitution once, which is to say there's no religious.
00:06:16
Speaker 4: Test for office. That's in Article 6.
00:06:19
Speaker 3: And then the First Amendment protects the free exercise of religion and says the government will not establish one official religion as our nation. So it's complicated when people say that. Yes, there are a majority of Americans are Christians. And Our ability as Christians to have differences, you know, I'm a Baptist. There's a hundred different types of Baptists. You can't even say there's one type of Baptist. Though I like Reverend Warnock. He's my type of Baptist. And so there's not one Christian identity. And what really we are is the ability for all of us to believe differently. And from the very beginning, Muslims were included.
00:07:00
Speaker 4: Jews were included.
00:07:01
Speaker 3: The founders were explicitly creating a nation of all faiths.
00:07:05
Speaker 1: So as a faith leader of all faiths, I guess, in that sense, that's good religion in your opinion. What is the biggest issue that causes you the most amount of concern in this country right now? And this is with your faith leader cap on. What concerns you the most? Where are we in dangerous territory?
00:07:28
Speaker 3: I think there's so much more that unites us than divides us. And, you know, you talk about politics, people get very divisive and think, you know, they want to label people and what party would you vote for? And then all these assumptions that come out of that. And then when you mix religion in that, you know, it's hard to have a civil conversation. And yet there are so many things that unite us of people of different faiths as Americans. I remember there was the Respect for Marriage Act. I'm originally from Houston.
00:08:01
Speaker 4: I live in D.C.
00:08:02
Speaker 3: Working in politics and policy and The Respect for Marriage Act codified same-sex marriage and interracial marriage, which hadn't been codified by Congress into federal law. And that was actually passed with huge majority in the Senate, very conservative people who said, you know what? There are conservative religious beliefs that say we don't want to honor same-sex marriage in our country.
00:08:26
Speaker 4: Houses of worship.
00:08:27
Speaker 3: But as a civil rights issue and as a legal issue, people should be equal under the law. And so instead of being divided by those beliefs, we actually found common ground and were able to pass a law that said the law and civil rights will apply equally to everybody, but religious institutions are free to continue practicing their own faith how they see it.
00:08:49
Speaker 2: Where do you leave space for people who think that the We were just doing a story. You mentioned Texas. We were just talking the story of this law in Texas just struck down. That banned drag shows, essentially. And oftentimes they attach to that, well, we don't want it because it leads to some moral decay of the country. And they often do it in the name of religion. How do we reconcile people who might be decent people, at least using... We're trying to give them credit, my man, for being decent folks who really are religious and have these beliefs, but it comes off as anti-LGBTQ plus or hateful.
00:09:28
Speaker 3: Well, I think you're exactly right, TJ. You need to start from a place of believing people have good intentions. That if you come to any sort of controversial issue and assume the other person is motivated by hate or bias, that's not room to actually have a conversation. What I would start the conversation at is the First Amendment. which protects everyone's religious freedom, but it also protects free speech, freedom of assembly, and it protects that core civil liberty that the government isn't going to come in and tell us what to say or how to behave. And so I actually think we could find common ground possibly around, you know what, you're free not to have a drag show at your church. You know, that's fine.
00:10:09
Speaker 4: You know, no one's going to force you.
00:10:10
Speaker 3: There was this whole belief, y'all may remember this, before same-sex marriage passed, that the churches were gonna close and people would be forced to do gay marriages. That never happened, right? No one's gonna force you to have a drag show that you have to go to. But also that freedom to be free from government tyranny should apply to everybody. And so you shouldn't be imposing your belief against drag and having a drag show on all Texans. So I think there's actually common ground when we see, let's not have any one group impose their beliefs on others, we can live peaceably together. You don't have to go to the drag show. Whoever's trying to pass that law, no one's gonna force you.
00:10:48
Speaker 4: To go there.
00:10:49
Speaker 1: And it's their loss. We were discussing that today.
00:10:51
Speaker 2: Don't know what you're missing, man.
00:10:52
Speaker 1: You don't know what you're missing. Here in New York, we love a good drag show. We'll actually be seeing one of our favorite drag queens on Friday.
00:10:59
Speaker 2: Jacqueline Hyde, yes. I'm a kid from Arkansas, and I have a favorite drag queen now. That's awesome.
00:11:06
Speaker 1: It's amazing. But keeping in with headlines, because I have this question for you. We have been talking about the recently dethroned Miss North Carolina USA. And she is a Mormon, Jesus Christ, Church of Latter-day Saints. And she was invoking her religion and Jesus Christ specifically when she was discussing some of her feelings about trans rights, gay rights, and was talking about Jesus Christ. And I'm curious from your perspective, when people invoke the name of Christ to basically justify their feelings of immorality when it comes to, yes, transsexuals, homosexuals, how do you as a homosexual man and a faith leader reconcile that? What do you say to folks like that? Is there something that you can say to bridge that divide or find some common ground?
00:12:12
Speaker 3: Well, first I'll say everyone's free to their own beliefs. She's free not to believe my marriage is holy and just, but I'd invite her to get to know people, you know, and I'd invite her. I'd tell my story of being in New York in seminary, Union Seminary, where I met my now husband, who was a Presbyterian minister. And so, you know, we fell in love because of our faith. and bonded over our faith and being sort of two Texans out of place in.
00:12:41
Speaker 4: New York City.
00:12:42
Speaker 3: And so we had, I think people change their mind on these things, not through arguing about scripture. They change their mind through human relationships. And I'm sure, you know, for y'all, there've been relationships you've had with people that changed how you viewed entire.
00:12:58
Speaker 4: Categories of people.
00:13:00
Speaker 3: So I'd invite her to get to know somebody who is married to someone of the same sex, to hear their story, and especially to see that faith, that actually half of LGBTQ people in this country are people of faith. And so the story is often God versus gays. And so my own life is a testament against that. And then so many LGBTQ people and the history. I remember the P flag when I was in New York, I was in the village walking by a Methodist church.
00:13:29
Speaker 4: And I saw this plaque on the.
00:13:31
Speaker 3: Side of the church and said, this is the first place P flag met, which is parents and friends of LGBTQ people. The first meeting they had was in a church in the village. And I was like, wow, the story of religion and LGBTQ people is everywhere if you look for it. But I don't want to argue with her because that's the last thing. That would probably just make people happy on both sides and change nothing.
00:14:02
Speaker 2: Well, then how are we supposed to get to a good place? You said we can find this common ground, but how are you supposed to find it? You said yes. This young lady needs to be around gay people or gay friends. She might soften her heart. But if she refuses to do that, how do we find common ground? If you are looking at somebody you're trying to find common ground with who actually says that how you are living your life is adding to the moral decay of the country. How, where is somebody's got to give some, how are we supposed to ever get on the same peaceful, loving page?
00:14:35
Speaker 3: You know, it's hard and you're not going to win over everybody, but But I do think there's a workable common sense solution, which is that the civil rights laws should apply to everybody. That I should be free to add, you know, my husband to my healthcare plan. And, you know, all of these things are often mundane rather than arguing about scripture or, you know, not be fired for who I am or, you know, my husband and I should be able to be on the same, you know, when we have a child, if we have a child.
00:15:04
Speaker 4: We don't yet, but, you know, hope to someday.
00:15:06
Speaker 3: You know, be able to raise that child together, like the laws would apply equally to everybody. But also, she doesn't have to change her beliefs. And the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't have to change their beliefs about human sexuality. I think people can believe differently, and we can come to common-sense policy solutions.
00:15:29
Speaker 2: See, policy, yes, we hear this all the time. You can change law, but how do you change hearts and minds? You can force people to act right based on law, but you can't force them to actually accept or respect. I don't know how to get to that point. I don't know how to get there.
00:15:45
Speaker 1: It's difficult. And what do you think about how oftentimes we see, and there's no one religion who does this, but oftentimes you hear about religion being hijacked, being used for propaganda. Religion, do you think it has a bad rap right now, even just that term religion? And how do we evolve from there? Because it can have really some significantly negative connotations when it is used for for political gain, personal gain, or whatever morality is, because that's such a broad term that can be applied specifically for varying reasons.
00:16:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, the most harm is done to religion by religious people who don't act very religiously. The hypocrisy, the, you know, hate when Jesus said, what is Jesus' core teaching? Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. if Christians actually did that, the whole, you wouldn't need to do these, you know, there are these million dollar ads they put on the Super Bowl about Jesus.
00:16:46
Speaker 4: And, you know, there's all these campaigns to.
00:16:48
Speaker 3: Like try to make people, you don't need an ad campaign. You don't need, you know, anything other than Christians acting like Jesus and the whole people's perception of Christianity would change. So I think it is people that are using religion, you know, the, as a political prop, people that don't practice the faith. But really, I think the call, and people understand it, even people that are not Christian, understand when Christians fail to live out the teachings of Jesus. And so the invitation to my fellow Christians is to, you know, we're never going to perfectly follow Jesus.
00:17:26
Speaker 4: And that's not the call.
00:17:27
Speaker 3: The call is to try our best to repent and ask forgiveness when we fail, and then try to do better. And if everyone does that, It's also an invitation to people of other faiths to say, you know, live out your faith and you're welcome to do that. And it's your right under as an American to live out your faith and people don't want nothing to do with religion.
00:17:49
Speaker 4: No one's going to force you.
00:17:51
Speaker 3: And, you know, we're not trying to impose faith on anybody. We're trying to say everyone is free to live it out.
00:17:56
Speaker 2: Do you have any recommendations for people maybe who aren't of faith, a place they can go to still get the lessons from religion? faith from religion, because quite frankly, it was one of my favorite things to do. I would go to church by myself in Atlanta, but I would sneak in after they did the fellowship just to hear the lesson. I would go into church just to hear him preach, and then I would get out right after he preached, because there are just so many life lessons throughout all religious books. Would you have a recommendation for a way people can still follow without necessarily being religious?
00:18:32
Speaker 4: I think the.
00:18:34
Speaker 3: The fear of a lot of religious spaces is facing judgment and facing like, we're not, whatever your religion is that we all fail to live up to the religious laws and teachings as we understand them. And yet I don't, that's not the core of my faith. The core of my faith is mercy. It is forgiveness. You know, I'm thinking about my husband. I went to see Les Miserables, the musical.
00:19:01
Speaker 1: Oh, you're speaking my language.
00:19:03
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know if y'all like musicals or not.
00:19:06
Speaker 1: Yes. And Les Miserables is my absolute favorite.
00:19:10
Speaker 3: Les Mis is the story of Christianity, the story of forgiveness, the story of like Javert trying to impose the law in this way that is cruel and misunderstands the intent of God giving us commandments, but also mercy. So I'd invite people to maybe experience it, whether it's through a house of worship that is welcoming and is not fire and brimstone to just try out that message. or to see it through Les Miserables. I thought Hamilton, now I'm thinking, since y'all were talking about New York, other musicals, and I'm like, Hamilton has a beautiful story of forgiveness, a big story of forgiveness, and it teaches you about the founding, and there's a lot of people can learn about religious freedom at the founding. So maybe through art, musicals, through my fellow Methodist from Houston, Beyonce has a lot of good religious music. You know, there's music and art and other ways to experience Christian themes outside of sort of going into a church.
00:20:11
Speaker 2: And a lot of people are experiencing it and don't even realize.
00:20:14
Speaker 1: That's true.
00:20:15
Speaker 2: And that's probably why they're willing.
00:20:16
Speaker 1: Yes. And to that point, I wanted to ask you about church, the brick and mortar. Do you feel like in order to be a good Christian or a person of faith, you need to go into that church, into that building? Can you have and experience the power of prayer and the connection with your God privately and I'm just curious, your thoughts on the role of prayer versus the role of an actual church.
00:20:47
Speaker 3: I think for many people, they've been harmed by the church, and so it's hard for them to go in. But I don't think it's possible to live a purely private Christian life. I think Jesus is always calling us into community. Maybe that's not a brick-and-mortar church. Maybe it's finding people online that have similar beliefs. But it is I believe the practice of following Jesus is the practice of joining a movement and being a part of what God is doing in the world.
00:21:15
Speaker 4: And so I don't think.
00:21:17
Speaker 3: The call is to just have your own private sort of faith.
00:21:23
Speaker 4: It is something that is about people coming together.
00:21:28
Speaker 1: Fellowship.
00:21:28
Speaker 2: I'm laughing because that's exactly what a couple of preachers told me when I told them I only... I was watching online. I said, no, it's fellowship. You're supposed to be together. And so as I was listening to his answer, I was.
00:21:42
Speaker 1: Like, no.
00:21:42
Speaker 4: And what did you do? What was your reaction when they told you that, TJ?
00:21:45
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, you're probably right. And then I never went to church. I kept listening to the sermon online. But no, that's the exact almost word for word.
00:21:53
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:21:53
Speaker 1: How often do you pray?
00:21:56
Speaker 4: I pray every day.
00:21:59
Speaker 1: And how long do you take? Would you consider it meditative? Meditative. Is it something you do at the same time every day? And can you just talk about what that gives you, what that brings you, the importance and power of it in your life?
00:22:13
Speaker 3: I love the Lord's Prayer. Jesus taught his followers how to pray. I love the part about give us this day our daily bread, forgive us our trespasses. I mean, I'm constantly feeling like trespassed by other people, you know, on me.
00:22:26
Speaker 4: Like I have to constantly forgive.
00:22:29
Speaker 3: I have a long list of people I'm mad at and that I feel like did not live up to my expectations of them. And so I'm constantly forgiving others and asking forgiveness.
00:22:40
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the part.
00:22:40
Speaker 3: Forgive us our trespasses as we have trespassed against others. And then lead us not in temptation. I mean, there's a lot of temptation in D.C.
00:22:48
Speaker 4: In this.
00:22:49
Speaker 3: I'm just a couple of blocks from the White House right here. Um, there's a lot of temptation, um, and then deliver us from evil. I mean, that'll preach, uh, I mean, that's the work of Christians together is being a force for redemptive love. Um, and then I will say my husband, I have been worshiping some at the Quaker meeting, the friends meeting of DC.
00:23:09
Speaker 4: And so that's an hour of silence.
00:23:11
Speaker 3: And that has really transformed how I view prayer as an hour sitting together And people receive messages from the spirit and they share them through vocal ministry during Quaker worship, but mostly it's silent. And that really opens space to not have your prayer, which is, you know, my list of people I need to forgive and, you know, my own kind of what's going on in my mind. But that allows an hour of truly like transcending to a different plane of existence, which sounds like I'm talking about aliens, but really it has been transformative in my life to sit there for an hour and listen for how the Holy Spirit is working in my life.
00:23:53
Speaker 1: I love that. I've heard people, I've never been, but I've heard people just absolutely talk about how beautiful and moving it is to be sitting in silence, but collectively with others as a community. I don't know if they call it a congregation, but as a community. I have one last question for you, Dr. Guthrie, in terms of I'm in awe of anyone who runs a marathon, let alone nine marathons. We're marathoners ourselves. And I'm curious about what you do, what prepares you to go through that type of emotional and physical discipline and pain, does God, does religion, does your faith play a role at all in motivating you and keeping you on that track through the finish line? Is any of what you do physically have something to do with your spirituality and your faith?
00:24:57
Speaker 3: It does, and thank you for asking. I should qualify nine marathons, but I'm a very slow marathoner. So it's sort of like a, When I did the New York City marathon, it was dark by the time I reached Central Park.
00:25:09
Speaker 1: You crossed the finish line.
00:25:12
Speaker 4: I'm a casual marathoner.
00:25:15
Speaker 3: But it's the most beautiful encapsulation, especially when you're in the back of the race where I am, of everybody trying. And everybody that crosses the finish line gets that same medal. I think there's a radical equality. And we're all, no matter what, who we are or where we came from, we all have to make it 26.2 miles and it's going to be hard for everybody, but there's a reward at the finish line. And I find it very meditative. I find it, there's a radical equality and that there is a joy for just being a part of it, which I really think is the joy of life is that we exist, that we don't understand everything that religion allows us to think about these big issues of who we are and what it means to be human and what God is doing in our midst. And a marathon also, I think, gives us this sense of awe and joy about the human experience and pushing ourselves to the limits. So thank you for asking. I've never been asked about my marathoning, so thank you for bringing that up.
00:26:23
Speaker 2: How many marathoners interview you, I guess, usually? Because it was the thing that jumped out. We wanted to lead with that, to be honest with you.
00:26:30
Speaker 1: I was like, ooh, he's a marathoner, too. Because, you know, look, I understand only 1% of the world, they say, has run a marathon. But for those of us, crazy enough, who... Mm-hmm. understand that, that collect, honestly, you are in a collective pain body and everyone else thinks you're crazy, but there is so much to learn. I think when we suffer and choosing to suffer, to reach a goal, to get to the finish line, I don't know. It reminds me a And the teachings that I received, I was raised Catholic, that I received about Christ, about what the whole purpose of our life is, I feel like a marathon kind of encapsulates so many of those lessons. So I just didn't know if you had ever talked about the intersection of those two things, your faith and your love of putting yourself in an incredibly painful situation with a couple thousand other people all at the same time, because people really do think we're crazy.
00:27:32
Speaker 3: You know, there's actually a lesson I've never thought of until this very moment. I was in March in L.A. and it was 90 degrees and it was so hot in L.A. They said, if you finish at 18, we'll give you the medal. And I had pride and pride is a sin. And I kept going. And at 19, I just had this really intense heat and I nearly didn't finish. And I was like, Guthrie, that was a lesson from somewhere that you need to take help when it's given to you. And your pride really cost you.
00:28:00
Speaker 4: That last moment.
00:28:01
Speaker 2: We would have kept going too, brother. We would have kept going too.
00:28:04
Speaker 1: We totally get it. But, oh, Dr. Guthrie Graves Fitzsimmons, thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure speaking with you. We really appreciate your time, your wisdom, and your lived experience. So thank you so much for being on the podcast.
00:28:19
Speaker 4: Thank you both.
Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody, and welcome to our spiritual Sunday here on Amy and TJ, and we're really excited about our next guest. He's a southern gentleman, just like you, TJ.
00:00:14
Speaker 2: Oh, come on now. It's Arkansas and Texas. We've got a few problems here, but it's Sunday, so let's keep this peaceful.
00:00:20
Speaker 1: Keep it civil. And yes, Dr. Guthrie Graves Fitzsimmons is his name. Sounds very impressive, and even more so because we just learned the doctor was just added to the front line. of his name, which is something I think he should be very impressed by. Yes, congratulations, but also a leading voice on religion, politics, religious freedom, and the role faith plays in the American public life. And I think it should be pointed out you're an ordained Baptist deacon, and perhaps even more impressive to us, a nine-time marathoner. Welcome to the podcast. And you said we can call you Guthrie, but I feel like you should really lean into the doctor thing.
00:01:01
Speaker 2: I like the doctor thing.
00:01:01
Speaker 3: Dr.
00:01:02
Speaker 1: Guthrie?
00:01:04
Speaker 4: Well, thanks, y'all.
00:01:05
Speaker 3: It's still new to me, the whole doctor of it, but it's an honor to be on with you and to have this discussion.
00:01:10
Speaker 2: It was good to have you. I promise you, though, if I had Dr. Holmes, I would even force her to call me doctor around the house. So congrats.
00:01:17
Speaker 4: It's going to be Amy and Dr. Holmes podcast.
00:01:19
Speaker 1: That's it.
00:01:20
Speaker 2: We would change the name, brother, I promise. But congratulations. It's good to have you here. We talked about religion and society. Do we need more of it? Do we need more religion in our society? Because sometimes it gets a bad rap.
00:01:33
Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of bad religion in our society. And so what I think we need is good religion, which is honoring, you know, this is the 250th anniversary of the United States of America and the signing of the Declaration of Independence. And our nation is committed to having many religions and honoring people that want nothing to do with religion at all in our society. And so a better role for religion in public life is, I think, what we're after, not trying to get religion out, but trying to say people of different religions can all live here peaceably together.
00:02:05
Speaker 2: Hey, Dr. Guthrie, what do you mean by bad religions?
00:02:09
Speaker 3: I think we have religious extremists that are using religion and a very narrow understanding of religion to try to impose their will on the rest of us. So, for instance, the vast majority of Americans who are religious don't want to ban abortion. The vast majority of Americans don't want to... you know, do away with same-sex marriage. Yet a very narrow slice of people are trying to use a very exclusive form of religion. And that's why religion, I think, it's a really bad rap from people. And yet most people are going about their faith, trying to live it out, love their neighbor, do what Jesus commanded as a Christian and, you know, myself as a Baptist.
00:02:50
Speaker 4: But if you're a different religion, people are trying to live their lives.
00:02:53
Speaker 3: And yet we see this politicized kind of extremist faith That is giving all of religion a bad name.
00:03:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm always curious about this, and we see it pop up maybe even more so now than even before. But you've got this idea that we are one nation under God on one hand, and then on the other hand, we have this separation of church and state. And yet we constantly see religion being evoked, as you point out, to justify certain behaviors. What is the role of religion in American politics?
00:03:32
Speaker 3: The role is everyone gets to practice their faith freely from government interference. The separation of church and state was originally intended to keep the government out of interfering in the practices of the church. And we have seen so many different religious communities flourish in the United States history because of that separation of church and state. It's not about keeping people of faith out of politics, out of public life. It's saying religion and government have different roles and institutionally separating them allows religion to flourish and allows our laws to be decided by people, by all Americans. You don't have to be any one religious faith to vote. and our laws should be accessible to everybody. And I know it's sometimes hard to really figure out all the details and where the line should be drawn. And take someone like Reverend Raphael Warnock, who's a senator and a pastor, right?
00:04:30
Speaker 4: Reverend Warnock, Reverend Dr. Warnock, I should say.
00:04:33
Speaker 3: We went to the same seminary, Union Seminary in New York, and Reverend Warnock is both a pastor and a senator, right?
00:04:39
Speaker 4: But those roles are different.
00:04:41
Speaker 3: He preaches on Sunday and he governs And so we are not trying to get religion out of public life. We're trying to say there's different roles for religion in government.
00:04:49
Speaker 2: Okay, different roles. I'm glad you mentioned Reverend Warnock. I spent a lot of time with him down in Atlanta. He's an Atlanta guy. I spent a lot of time. Love, Pastor, Senator Warnock. Senator, Doctor, Reverend. Yes. You said we're not trying to get it out. But what happens, though, when you hear political leaders... say that this is a Christian nation? When you hear our political leaders say that, what does that mean? Is there anything wrong with that?
00:05:20
Speaker 3: Well, I like to say, well, what do you mean by that? We are a majority Christian nation.
00:05:24
Speaker 4: That's true.
00:05:25
Speaker 3: About two-thirds of Americans still identify as Christian.
00:05:28
Speaker 4: And so, you know.
00:05:30
Speaker 3: A large number of Americans are Christians, but beneath that, there's many different types of Christians, right? There's Catholics, there's evangelicals, there's mainline Protestants, there's so many the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
00:05:43
Speaker 4: There are so many different types of Christian.
00:05:46
Speaker 3: And so there's one sense in which saying we're a Christian nation, people mean a very narrow sense of Christian, but also really what we are at our essence in the United States and the way we were set up as a country and that the promise of the United States that we are still trying to fulfill today is to be a religious freedom nation. And so we do not have one religion that is in the Constitution. The Framers put religion in the Constitution once, which is to say there's no religious.
00:06:16
Speaker 4: Test for office. That's in Article 6.
00:06:19
Speaker 3: And then the First Amendment protects the free exercise of religion and says the government will not establish one official religion as our nation. So it's complicated when people say that. Yes, there are a majority of Americans are Christians. And Our ability as Christians to have differences, you know, I'm a Baptist. There's a hundred different types of Baptists. You can't even say there's one type of Baptist. Though I like Reverend Warnock. He's my type of Baptist. And so there's not one Christian identity. And what really we are is the ability for all of us to believe differently. And from the very beginning, Muslims were included.
00:07:00
Speaker 4: Jews were included.
00:07:01
Speaker 3: The founders were explicitly creating a nation of all faiths.
00:07:05
Speaker 1: So as a faith leader of all faiths, I guess, in that sense, that's good religion in your opinion. What is the biggest issue that causes you the most amount of concern in this country right now? And this is with your faith leader cap on. What concerns you the most? Where are we in dangerous territory?
00:07:28
Speaker 3: I think there's so much more that unites us than divides us. And, you know, you talk about politics, people get very divisive and think, you know, they want to label people and what party would you vote for? And then all these assumptions that come out of that. And then when you mix religion in that, you know, it's hard to have a civil conversation. And yet there are so many things that unite us of people of different faiths as Americans. I remember there was the Respect for Marriage Act. I'm originally from Houston.
00:08:01
Speaker 4: I live in D.C.
00:08:02
Speaker 3: Working in politics and policy and The Respect for Marriage Act codified same-sex marriage and interracial marriage, which hadn't been codified by Congress into federal law. And that was actually passed with huge majority in the Senate, very conservative people who said, you know what? There are conservative religious beliefs that say we don't want to honor same-sex marriage in our country.
00:08:26
Speaker 4: Houses of worship.
00:08:27
Speaker 3: But as a civil rights issue and as a legal issue, people should be equal under the law. And so instead of being divided by those beliefs, we actually found common ground and were able to pass a law that said the law and civil rights will apply equally to everybody, but religious institutions are free to continue practicing their own faith how they see it.
00:08:49
Speaker 2: Where do you leave space for people who think that the We were just doing a story. You mentioned Texas. We were just talking the story of this law in Texas just struck down. That banned drag shows, essentially. And oftentimes they attach to that, well, we don't want it because it leads to some moral decay of the country. And they often do it in the name of religion. How do we reconcile people who might be decent people, at least using... We're trying to give them credit, my man, for being decent folks who really are religious and have these beliefs, but it comes off as anti-LGBTQ plus or hateful.
00:09:28
Speaker 3: Well, I think you're exactly right, TJ. You need to start from a place of believing people have good intentions. That if you come to any sort of controversial issue and assume the other person is motivated by hate or bias, that's not room to actually have a conversation. What I would start the conversation at is the First Amendment. which protects everyone's religious freedom, but it also protects free speech, freedom of assembly, and it protects that core civil liberty that the government isn't going to come in and tell us what to say or how to behave. And so I actually think we could find common ground possibly around, you know what, you're free not to have a drag show at your church. You know, that's fine.
00:10:09
Speaker 4: You know, no one's going to force you.
00:10:10
Speaker 3: There was this whole belief, y'all may remember this, before same-sex marriage passed, that the churches were gonna close and people would be forced to do gay marriages. That never happened, right? No one's gonna force you to have a drag show that you have to go to. But also that freedom to be free from government tyranny should apply to everybody. And so you shouldn't be imposing your belief against drag and having a drag show on all Texans. So I think there's actually common ground when we see, let's not have any one group impose their beliefs on others, we can live peaceably together. You don't have to go to the drag show. Whoever's trying to pass that law, no one's gonna force you.
00:10:48
Speaker 4: To go there.
00:10:49
Speaker 1: And it's their loss. We were discussing that today.
00:10:51
Speaker 2: Don't know what you're missing, man.
00:10:52
Speaker 1: You don't know what you're missing. Here in New York, we love a good drag show. We'll actually be seeing one of our favorite drag queens on Friday.
00:10:59
Speaker 2: Jacqueline Hyde, yes. I'm a kid from Arkansas, and I have a favorite drag queen now. That's awesome.
00:11:06
Speaker 1: It's amazing. But keeping in with headlines, because I have this question for you. We have been talking about the recently dethroned Miss North Carolina USA. And she is a Mormon, Jesus Christ, Church of Latter-day Saints. And she was invoking her religion and Jesus Christ specifically when she was discussing some of her feelings about trans rights, gay rights, and was talking about Jesus Christ. And I'm curious from your perspective, when people invoke the name of Christ to basically justify their feelings of immorality when it comes to, yes, transsexuals, homosexuals, how do you as a homosexual man and a faith leader reconcile that? What do you say to folks like that? Is there something that you can say to bridge that divide or find some common ground?
00:12:12
Speaker 3: Well, first I'll say everyone's free to their own beliefs. She's free not to believe my marriage is holy and just, but I'd invite her to get to know people, you know, and I'd invite her. I'd tell my story of being in New York in seminary, Union Seminary, where I met my now husband, who was a Presbyterian minister. And so, you know, we fell in love because of our faith. and bonded over our faith and being sort of two Texans out of place in.
00:12:41
Speaker 4: New York City.
00:12:42
Speaker 3: And so we had, I think people change their mind on these things, not through arguing about scripture. They change their mind through human relationships. And I'm sure, you know, for y'all, there've been relationships you've had with people that changed how you viewed entire.
00:12:58
Speaker 4: Categories of people.
00:13:00
Speaker 3: So I'd invite her to get to know somebody who is married to someone of the same sex, to hear their story, and especially to see that faith, that actually half of LGBTQ people in this country are people of faith. And so the story is often God versus gays. And so my own life is a testament against that. And then so many LGBTQ people and the history. I remember the P flag when I was in New York, I was in the village walking by a Methodist church.
00:13:29
Speaker 4: And I saw this plaque on the.
00:13:31
Speaker 3: Side of the church and said, this is the first place P flag met, which is parents and friends of LGBTQ people. The first meeting they had was in a church in the village. And I was like, wow, the story of religion and LGBTQ people is everywhere if you look for it. But I don't want to argue with her because that's the last thing. That would probably just make people happy on both sides and change nothing.
00:14:02
Speaker 2: Well, then how are we supposed to get to a good place? You said we can find this common ground, but how are you supposed to find it? You said yes. This young lady needs to be around gay people or gay friends. She might soften her heart. But if she refuses to do that, how do we find common ground? If you are looking at somebody you're trying to find common ground with who actually says that how you are living your life is adding to the moral decay of the country. How, where is somebody's got to give some, how are we supposed to ever get on the same peaceful, loving page?
00:14:35
Speaker 3: You know, it's hard and you're not going to win over everybody, but But I do think there's a workable common sense solution, which is that the civil rights laws should apply to everybody. That I should be free to add, you know, my husband to my healthcare plan. And, you know, all of these things are often mundane rather than arguing about scripture or, you know, not be fired for who I am or, you know, my husband and I should be able to be on the same, you know, when we have a child, if we have a child.
00:15:04
Speaker 4: We don't yet, but, you know, hope to someday.
00:15:06
Speaker 3: You know, be able to raise that child together, like the laws would apply equally to everybody. But also, she doesn't have to change her beliefs. And the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't have to change their beliefs about human sexuality. I think people can believe differently, and we can come to common-sense policy solutions.
00:15:29
Speaker 2: See, policy, yes, we hear this all the time. You can change law, but how do you change hearts and minds? You can force people to act right based on law, but you can't force them to actually accept or respect. I don't know how to get to that point. I don't know how to get there.
00:15:45
Speaker 1: It's difficult. And what do you think about how oftentimes we see, and there's no one religion who does this, but oftentimes you hear about religion being hijacked, being used for propaganda. Religion, do you think it has a bad rap right now, even just that term religion? And how do we evolve from there? Because it can have really some significantly negative connotations when it is used for for political gain, personal gain, or whatever morality is, because that's such a broad term that can be applied specifically for varying reasons.
00:16:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, the most harm is done to religion by religious people who don't act very religiously. The hypocrisy, the, you know, hate when Jesus said, what is Jesus' core teaching? Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. if Christians actually did that, the whole, you wouldn't need to do these, you know, there are these million dollar ads they put on the Super Bowl about Jesus.
00:16:46
Speaker 4: And, you know, there's all these campaigns to.
00:16:48
Speaker 3: Like try to make people, you don't need an ad campaign. You don't need, you know, anything other than Christians acting like Jesus and the whole people's perception of Christianity would change. So I think it is people that are using religion, you know, the, as a political prop, people that don't practice the faith. But really, I think the call, and people understand it, even people that are not Christian, understand when Christians fail to live out the teachings of Jesus. And so the invitation to my fellow Christians is to, you know, we're never going to perfectly follow Jesus.
00:17:26
Speaker 4: And that's not the call.
00:17:27
Speaker 3: The call is to try our best to repent and ask forgiveness when we fail, and then try to do better. And if everyone does that, It's also an invitation to people of other faiths to say, you know, live out your faith and you're welcome to do that. And it's your right under as an American to live out your faith and people don't want nothing to do with religion.
00:17:49
Speaker 4: No one's going to force you.
00:17:51
Speaker 3: And, you know, we're not trying to impose faith on anybody. We're trying to say everyone is free to live it out.
00:17:56
Speaker 2: Do you have any recommendations for people maybe who aren't of faith, a place they can go to still get the lessons from religion? faith from religion, because quite frankly, it was one of my favorite things to do. I would go to church by myself in Atlanta, but I would sneak in after they did the fellowship just to hear the lesson. I would go into church just to hear him preach, and then I would get out right after he preached, because there are just so many life lessons throughout all religious books. Would you have a recommendation for a way people can still follow without necessarily being religious?
00:18:32
Speaker 4: I think the.
00:18:34
Speaker 3: The fear of a lot of religious spaces is facing judgment and facing like, we're not, whatever your religion is that we all fail to live up to the religious laws and teachings as we understand them. And yet I don't, that's not the core of my faith. The core of my faith is mercy. It is forgiveness. You know, I'm thinking about my husband. I went to see Les Miserables, the musical.
00:19:01
Speaker 1: Oh, you're speaking my language.
00:19:03
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know if y'all like musicals or not.
00:19:06
Speaker 1: Yes. And Les Miserables is my absolute favorite.
00:19:10
Speaker 3: Les Mis is the story of Christianity, the story of forgiveness, the story of like Javert trying to impose the law in this way that is cruel and misunderstands the intent of God giving us commandments, but also mercy. So I'd invite people to maybe experience it, whether it's through a house of worship that is welcoming and is not fire and brimstone to just try out that message. or to see it through Les Miserables. I thought Hamilton, now I'm thinking, since y'all were talking about New York, other musicals, and I'm like, Hamilton has a beautiful story of forgiveness, a big story of forgiveness, and it teaches you about the founding, and there's a lot of people can learn about religious freedom at the founding. So maybe through art, musicals, through my fellow Methodist from Houston, Beyonce has a lot of good religious music. You know, there's music and art and other ways to experience Christian themes outside of sort of going into a church.
00:20:11
Speaker 2: And a lot of people are experiencing it and don't even realize.
00:20:14
Speaker 1: That's true.
00:20:15
Speaker 2: And that's probably why they're willing.
00:20:16
Speaker 1: Yes. And to that point, I wanted to ask you about church, the brick and mortar. Do you feel like in order to be a good Christian or a person of faith, you need to go into that church, into that building? Can you have and experience the power of prayer and the connection with your God privately and I'm just curious, your thoughts on the role of prayer versus the role of an actual church.
00:20:47
Speaker 3: I think for many people, they've been harmed by the church, and so it's hard for them to go in. But I don't think it's possible to live a purely private Christian life. I think Jesus is always calling us into community. Maybe that's not a brick-and-mortar church. Maybe it's finding people online that have similar beliefs. But it is I believe the practice of following Jesus is the practice of joining a movement and being a part of what God is doing in the world.
00:21:15
Speaker 4: And so I don't think.
00:21:17
Speaker 3: The call is to just have your own private sort of faith.
00:21:23
Speaker 4: It is something that is about people coming together.
00:21:28
Speaker 1: Fellowship.
00:21:28
Speaker 2: I'm laughing because that's exactly what a couple of preachers told me when I told them I only... I was watching online. I said, no, it's fellowship. You're supposed to be together. And so as I was listening to his answer, I was.
00:21:42
Speaker 1: Like, no.
00:21:42
Speaker 4: And what did you do? What was your reaction when they told you that, TJ?
00:21:45
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, you're probably right. And then I never went to church. I kept listening to the sermon online. But no, that's the exact almost word for word.
00:21:53
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:21:53
Speaker 1: How often do you pray?
00:21:56
Speaker 4: I pray every day.
00:21:59
Speaker 1: And how long do you take? Would you consider it meditative? Meditative. Is it something you do at the same time every day? And can you just talk about what that gives you, what that brings you, the importance and power of it in your life?
00:22:13
Speaker 3: I love the Lord's Prayer. Jesus taught his followers how to pray. I love the part about give us this day our daily bread, forgive us our trespasses. I mean, I'm constantly feeling like trespassed by other people, you know, on me.
00:22:26
Speaker 4: Like I have to constantly forgive.
00:22:29
Speaker 3: I have a long list of people I'm mad at and that I feel like did not live up to my expectations of them. And so I'm constantly forgiving others and asking forgiveness.
00:22:40
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the part.
00:22:40
Speaker 3: Forgive us our trespasses as we have trespassed against others. And then lead us not in temptation. I mean, there's a lot of temptation in D.C.
00:22:48
Speaker 4: In this.
00:22:49
Speaker 3: I'm just a couple of blocks from the White House right here. Um, there's a lot of temptation, um, and then deliver us from evil. I mean, that'll preach, uh, I mean, that's the work of Christians together is being a force for redemptive love. Um, and then I will say my husband, I have been worshiping some at the Quaker meeting, the friends meeting of DC.
00:23:09
Speaker 4: And so that's an hour of silence.
00:23:11
Speaker 3: And that has really transformed how I view prayer as an hour sitting together And people receive messages from the spirit and they share them through vocal ministry during Quaker worship, but mostly it's silent. And that really opens space to not have your prayer, which is, you know, my list of people I need to forgive and, you know, my own kind of what's going on in my mind. But that allows an hour of truly like transcending to a different plane of existence, which sounds like I'm talking about aliens, but really it has been transformative in my life to sit there for an hour and listen for how the Holy Spirit is working in my life.
00:23:53
Speaker 1: I love that. I've heard people, I've never been, but I've heard people just absolutely talk about how beautiful and moving it is to be sitting in silence, but collectively with others as a community. I don't know if they call it a congregation, but as a community. I have one last question for you, Dr. Guthrie, in terms of I'm in awe of anyone who runs a marathon, let alone nine marathons. We're marathoners ourselves. And I'm curious about what you do, what prepares you to go through that type of emotional and physical discipline and pain, does God, does religion, does your faith play a role at all in motivating you and keeping you on that track through the finish line? Is any of what you do physically have something to do with your spirituality and your faith?
00:24:57
Speaker 3: It does, and thank you for asking. I should qualify nine marathons, but I'm a very slow marathoner. So it's sort of like a, When I did the New York City marathon, it was dark by the time I reached Central Park.
00:25:09
Speaker 1: You crossed the finish line.
00:25:12
Speaker 4: I'm a casual marathoner.
00:25:15
Speaker 3: But it's the most beautiful encapsulation, especially when you're in the back of the race where I am, of everybody trying. And everybody that crosses the finish line gets that same medal. I think there's a radical equality. And we're all, no matter what, who we are or where we came from, we all have to make it 26.2 miles and it's going to be hard for everybody, but there's a reward at the finish line. And I find it very meditative. I find it, there's a radical equality and that there is a joy for just being a part of it, which I really think is the joy of life is that we exist, that we don't understand everything that religion allows us to think about these big issues of who we are and what it means to be human and what God is doing in our midst. And a marathon also, I think, gives us this sense of awe and joy about the human experience and pushing ourselves to the limits. So thank you for asking. I've never been asked about my marathoning, so thank you for bringing that up.
00:26:23
Speaker 2: How many marathoners interview you, I guess, usually? Because it was the thing that jumped out. We wanted to lead with that, to be honest with you.
00:26:30
Speaker 1: I was like, ooh, he's a marathoner, too. Because, you know, look, I understand only 1% of the world, they say, has run a marathon. But for those of us, crazy enough, who... Mm-hmm. understand that, that collect, honestly, you are in a collective pain body and everyone else thinks you're crazy, but there is so much to learn. I think when we suffer and choosing to suffer, to reach a goal, to get to the finish line, I don't know. It reminds me a And the teachings that I received, I was raised Catholic, that I received about Christ, about what the whole purpose of our life is, I feel like a marathon kind of encapsulates so many of those lessons. So I just didn't know if you had ever talked about the intersection of those two things, your faith and your love of putting yourself in an incredibly painful situation with a couple thousand other people all at the same time, because people really do think we're crazy.
00:27:32
Speaker 3: You know, there's actually a lesson I've never thought of until this very moment. I was in March in L.A. and it was 90 degrees and it was so hot in L.A. They said, if you finish at 18, we'll give you the medal. And I had pride and pride is a sin. And I kept going. And at 19, I just had this really intense heat and I nearly didn't finish. And I was like, Guthrie, that was a lesson from somewhere that you need to take help when it's given to you. And your pride really cost you.
00:28:00
Speaker 4: That last moment.
00:28:01
Speaker 2: We would have kept going too, brother. We would have kept going too.
00:28:04
Speaker 1: We totally get it. But, oh, Dr. Guthrie Graves Fitzsimmons, thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure speaking with you. We really appreciate your time, your wisdom, and your lived experience. So thank you so much for being on the podcast.
00:28:19
Speaker 4: Thank you both.