Serial Killer Ted Bundy Linked To Another Brutal Murder Of Utah Teenager

00:00:02
Speaker 1: One of the most prolific serial killers in this country is long dead, but the number of his victims continues to rise. It is another headline. We are talking about Ted Bundy. I'm Amy. That's TJ. And this is the second time this year authorities have been able to make a big announcement that they have linked another death of a brutally committed murdered, tortured, and sexually assaulted teenager to Ted Bundy.

00:00:34
Speaker 2: 89, right? He's been dead since 89?

00:00:37
Speaker 1: 1989.

00:00:37
Speaker 2: Executed, still finding victims of his. And I say finding, she was found, but it is incredible. Rose, give it credit to technology, and we credit these law enforcement agencies that stick with a lot of cold cases and want to bring closure to these families. And, Rose, this is, I want to give credit to law enforcement now and back then. Because they had to preserve a lot of evidence that had to stick around for 50 years to solve some of these crimes. This is pretty incredible.

00:01:03
Speaker 1: That is absolutely true. And in fact, in this big announcement that was made, we should point out 52 years to the day that the body of 17-year-old Melissa Ann Smith was found. She was found October 27, 1974 by hunters. It's not just a coincidence, right?

00:01:21
Speaker 2: Did they time it out to do this?

00:01:23
Speaker 1: They may have.

00:01:24
Speaker 2: It's weird to think that, yeah.

00:01:25
Speaker 1: Yes. But interestingly enough, I don't know how long they held it because in this big press conference that Utah authorities presented on that day, they also paid homage to a detective that had passed away just days earlier who literally spent his life trying to find the definitive link between Ted Bundy and the murder of this young girl. And he passed away due to pancreatic cancer just recently. a few weeks before this announcement was made. So this was a team of detectives, as you pointed out, who just wouldn't stop trying to get closure or bring closure for the family. But the truth is, 17-year-old Melissa Ann Smith at this point doesn't even have much family left.

00:02:09
Speaker 2: You could imagine, right? She was, I mean, 50 years. I mean, she had parents and uncles and grandmas who were already, you know, in their 30s or whatever, 40s and 50s and more. Yeah, after 52 years, not a lot around. It was interesting. The way they put it, I don't know if they got a hold of any family members or not. They said it in such a way that we got a hold of somebody who was happy to hear that we did make this discovery. But I don't know. Does she have family anywhere, baby?

00:02:40
Speaker 1: So we know that her father, who was the police chief, by the way, of the town when she went missing at the age of 17... He retired, I believe, just a few years later and then died two years after that. So this obviously literally killed him. Her sister died in 2014 and her mom died just two years ago in 2024. And you're right, the way that they said it, I actually have the quote, they said it was hard to find living relatives of Smith, but they said they did manage to speak to someone who was very, very grateful that investigators were able to bring this to resolution and But they didn't want to even, the one or a few members that they found didn't want to be at that press conference because they said it was just so painful. They didn't want added attention. They didn't want added media attention to their family after everything they had been through. Imagine five decades of the, not knowing, but believing probably that she died at the hands of Ted Bundy.

00:03:35
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know. I don't have a good indication of what, how long they suspected this was his crime. Because Everything, the hallmarks are there.

00:03:46
Speaker 1: Yes. Well, he admitted to killing her and the other young woman who we'll get into. Remember back in April, there was another similar announcement in 2026. By Utah authorities saying, we have linked Ted Bundy to the murder of another 17-year-old. And it was through that link that they were actually able to solve this.

00:04:06
Speaker 2: Crime, too.

00:04:07
Speaker 1: It's all this new DNA technology.

00:04:09
Speaker 2: I know he had admitted to the Laura Amy, right?

00:04:12
Speaker 1: Yes.

00:04:12
Speaker 2: The previous one, he admitted to that. He also had, because he only, what? He was only convicted of what, two murders?

00:04:19
Speaker 1: Well, he was convicted of three and put to death for two of the murders, yes. But they believe he murdered anywhere from 20 to 100. He admitted to killing 30 women.

00:04:28
Speaker 2: But was she on his list?

00:04:30
Speaker 1: Yes.

00:04:30
Speaker 2: Melissa was.

00:04:31
Speaker 1: Yes.

00:04:31
Speaker 2: Okay, so they just couldn't prove it.

00:04:33
Speaker 1: They couldn't prove it. And look, thankfully, a lot of these women, and by the way, we'll get into it, there are so many women who went missing and who are believed to have died at the hands of Bundy, some of whom he even named. Some people he said he couldn't remember their names, but many of them, they can't find the bodies. they don't know where they are. They're just missing. So these, at least they had the bodies and they preserved the evidence enough that they were able to find DNA and link it directly back to Bundy.

00:05:02
Speaker 2: The scary part, a lot of the scary parts, but Robes, he did a pretty good job of hiding. Like you said, some haven't been found, but the one that have been found, a couple of hunters just stumble upon a body. Like this is not out in any place. Like these are remote areas and it just almost dumb luck almost that these bodies were found.

00:05:22
Speaker 1: He deliberately hid those bodies. And yes, there are still. police teams and crews across many states that are still actually searching for shallow graves or remains that could be in remote areas of wilderness that Ted Bundy may have dropped these bodies. That is what he did. That is his hallmark. You mentioned his hallmark. Almost all of these women were found naked, badly beaten, sexually assaulted, and ultimately strangled to death. I mean, these were horrific, brutal murders.

00:05:54
Speaker 2: He spent how much time in Utah? I can't remember.

00:05:57
Speaker 1: Quite a bit of time, and it was actually, it was only through his extradition to Colorado that he was able to escape not once, but twice. and continue his murder spree, but he was so busy in Utah.

00:06:08
Speaker 2: Was he on the West Coast?

00:06:11
Speaker 1: Yes, Washington State, Idaho, Oregon, and yes, Utah. And in Utah, if you look at the number of cases that are still unsolved that they believe are attributed to him, he was so busy, specifically in the months of October and November in 1974. It is astounding. It is jaw-dropping to see all of the missing people and or murdered young girls who were found in a very similar area in very similar fashion. They were all around 15, 16, 17 years old. It's just frightening. He had, as we know many serial killers do, just like hallmarks that this was him and this is how he went after his victims, but he was good looking, he was charismatic, And oftentimes he would feign an injury. He would say he had a bandaged arm or a bandaged leg. So he would get sympathy from these young girls and he would ask for help or offer them a ride. And he seemed, he looked like a nice guy. He was a law student. He was smart. He was good looking. What's scary about a good looking guy who's going to law school?

00:07:17
Speaker 2: Charismatic. So they all say he was only able to do this. If he looked like some other serial killers... There's no way he could have talked some 17-year-old young lady into getting to his car or doing anything else. I don't... Who's more famous? Who are our most... I'm thinking about the Zodiac Killer.

00:07:38
Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy.

00:07:39
Speaker 2: Gacy's in there. Is Bundy... I mean, he might... Dahmer is in there. Like, these names we know. I mean, Bundy is... We are still counting victims of this guy. I.

00:07:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't think of another case where we are still tying cold cases, remains that have been in police evidence locker rooms for five-plus decades that we're still now putting and piecing together the trail of his destruction, which, again, some people put his death count, I hate to even put it like that, body count, but upwards of 100. And we only know about 30 right now. So this is frightening.

00:08:23
Speaker 2: I didn't see. Do you have any idea? The cases that are still pending are out there, have these hallmarks. How much DNA from a lot of those cases, I wonder, because this one was figured out because we have a DNA profile over here and we have one over here. We know this was Bundy, so let's see if this matters. So is this just a matter of taking this DNA now and checking it against.

00:08:48
Speaker 1: All these cases? There are many states that are super excited about what's been taking place in Utah because this technology apparently just, I guess, was created in 2023. And so to have to go through, it's a very specific process, but what they had to do is basically recreate Ted Bundy's DNA profile with a little bit of fluid that they had from these victims because yes, he sexually assaulted them and were able to create a profile of his posthumously, which is kind of miraculous. And then they were able to link his DNA to what happened in April. That was Laurie and Amy. They were able to definitively link those two. And then they were able to take that same technology. and apply it to this latest case. And they said they are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that they have confirmed Ted Bundy absolutely was the killer of this 17 year old girl, Melissa Ann Smith.

00:09:48
Speaker 2: I mean, this seems almost like Rosie. Everywhere in the country that has an unsolved murder. Yeah. And it's a young woman between the age of 15 to 40 who was found out in the 70s. You should test that. his DNA against every single one in the country almost.

00:10:16
Speaker 1: And that is almost assuredly going to happen, especially when you have, because obviously these cases were suspected to be victims of Ted Bundy. But if you're the family member or if you've been waiting for justice, or frankly, if you're a detective on the case, suspected of killing somebody isn't good enough. It isn't justice, it isn't closure, it isn't finality. And so this is a big deal. And if you look back at this crime with Smith, her mom reported her missing on October 18th, 1974. And again, as we mentioned, she was the daughter of the police chief. So can you imagine the police presence trying to find her, trying to figure out what happened? 17 years old, she left a local pizza restaurant. She was meeting a friend and she was never seen again until nine days later when those hunters happened upon her body. On, yes, October 27th. And look, it's just one of those moments where the quote from the prosecutor was, although Ted Bundy is no longer alive to face prosecution, advances in forensic science and the continued dedication of law enforcement professionals have helped provide answers in a case that has remained unresolved for 50 years. It's a big deal.

00:11:28
Speaker 2: It is. And again, this is times you give them credit and you applaud them for sticking with it forever. wanting to give, I mean, frankly, some closure to a family that's not even there anymore. This is important. Robes, it's important to send this message to other families who are waiting, who don't have answers, who... It is, Robes. Advancements in technology. We were just talking about the People's Court murder, this thing that happened, right? They couldn't prove it until advancements in digital forensics allowed them to do something. That was even 15 years ago. That was fairly recent. This is incredible that they can do this now. And to think, we always say, right, that's why there were so many serial killers in the 70s, 80s, 90s. Just wipe your hands and walk on out. They can't match. You can't catch them.

00:12:16
Speaker 1: There was no DNA technology. There weren't cell phones. And there certainly wasn't the digital forensics. capabilities that we have now, and certainly, hopefully, it's getting harder and harder and harder to get away with murder. People will still commit the crimes, but perhaps there will eventually be somewhat of a deterrent if people realize, I'm not gonna get away with this. And beforehand, it wasn't the case. And to exactly what you're talking about, the DA, when giving this press conference, yes, was talking about Ted Bundy victims, but also any victim of a serious violent crime or even a murder to the families who were waiting for answers, she was saying, this just speaks to the importance of preserving evidence. You don't know what technology will be in place five years from now, 10 years from now, hell, 50 years from now. And so it was another moment where it was just a reminder for police agencies, for law enforcement, for anyone who is collecting evidence out of a crime scene, what you're collecting now might not provide answers today, but it could later. We just don't know what we don't know yet. We don't know where technology is gonna take us. And she said, every single day forensics is changing, And we will always have the ability to look at these cases again and again. And that does and that should give hope to a lot of families who don't have answers because authorities believe there will be more victims that will be connected to Ted Bundy and there will be more families who will finally have answers. And that will be certainly helpful. Now, in Utah specifically, they started listing other women. I mean, I didn't realize I knew that there were dozens of other women and other cases that they believe were connected to him. But they talk about 16-year-old Nancy Wilcox. They believe that she was Ted Bundy's first Utah killing. And that's another one where he admitted to killing her. They haven't found her body. How do police go about trying to find remains that have been hidden for 50 years. That's like, and in a state like Utah, with mountains and woods and hiking trails, and no one's found anything since, it's hard to imagine. That's just, that's a matter of luck at this point.

00:14:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I said, he did a fairly good job. Again, you talk, a very good example, her dad's in law enforcement. You know, there was, they put every resource they had into trying to find her. Every department, I bet they got all kinds of law enforcement from different jurisdictions just blanketed the place. And who found it? Two random hunters just happened upon a spot.

00:14:56
Speaker 1: And that's what it kind of takes. This is just in the state of Utah. You've got 16-year-old Nancy Wilcox, 15-year-old Susan Curtis. Again, he admitted to killing her. Still don't have her body. 17-year-old Deborah Kent. This one is wild to me. She was abducted from her high school parking lot. She was with her family. She was attending a high school play. She went to go pick up her brother at an ice skating rink, but she never made it. Obviously, they believe Ted Bundy intercepted her. They found a patella, like part of a kneecap in a remote area of Utah in the mountains east of Fairview. I don't even know where that is. It was later confirmed that it was her kneecap. They never found any other part of her. And perhaps when he does or put them out in these remote areas, I guess you have the conditions, you have animals, you have lots of things where Some of these cases may likely never be fully solved, but it does feel like at least any time a family can get closure, it's a huge deal.

00:16:04
Speaker 2: He can't remember. He's got, I mean, to be honest, I mean, some of it seemed like he was toying with authorities a little bit, saying, yes, I killed this person, and then he wouldn't tell them where the body was. But, Rose, if you killed, let's just say the 30, but let's go up to the 100. You don't know where in the hell I buried this person off in the desert here or off in the woods here. He probably died not having any idea where a lot of these bodies were.

00:16:30
Speaker 1: He couldn't remember all their names. He remembered some of them. Here's the interesting part, though. And, you know, we've talked a lot about the death penalty. We have been talking about it a lot this year. But think about if Ted Bundy hadn't been executed. if he hadn't been sent to the electric chair in 1989, do you know that a lot of these confessions came on the day of his execution? He was trying really hard to convince authorities not to kill him. He was trying really hard to, yes, kick the can, to have another day. And he started rattling off names of victims and said, I'll tell you where the bodies are if you just give me some more time. And there were some people who believed he was just embellishing. They believed he was just trying to take credit for murders he didn't commit to try and live another day. But what if we hadn't killed him?

00:17:20
Speaker 2: Embellishing. Okay.

00:17:22
Speaker 1: Turns out, he wasn't.

00:17:24
Speaker 2: We're still confirming that he killed some folks. So, I don't know how much he was embellishing, but the... You know, this is two. This is two cases this year. I wonder if there is going to be a steady stream of headlines. Another one, another one, another one, because a lot of these bodies have been discovered. A lot of crimes out there are unsolved. If they start matching those up, maybe a lot of these victims' robes aren't still buried out somewhere. Maybe they just don't know who the killer is. Yeah.

00:18:05
Speaker 1: I did a quick Google search based on this latest press conference, and I started seeing And neighboring states, states near this area where he had a massive killing spree. But Wyoming is now saying they've got half a dozen. cases, unresolved cold cases of girls in their teens in the 1970s who they now are excited about taking this technology that they were able to use in Utah and apply it to their cases. So I think you're going to start, well, I know you're going to start to see authorities in several other states start comparing whatever evidence they may still have, any DNA they may have, and trying to link and get some closure for these families. But it's kind of remarkable if you think about it. This killing spree happened between 1974 and 1978 across seven states, and a lot of it happened because he escaped from prison not once, but twice. Can you imagine if he was allowed, if he hadn't been caught sooner? I mean, if he hadn't been caught until later? The rampage he was on, the amount of bodies that are now attributed to him, it was like every day he was plotting and planning another kidnapping, torture, rape, and murder.

00:19:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was in areas, I mean, when you talk Pacific Northwest, Idaho and Wyoming and Utah and Colorado, that's some expansive land.

00:19:32
Speaker 1: Yes.

00:19:33
Speaker 2: There's a lot of space out there to do some nefarious-ish off in the mountains, off in the forest, off in... Well, there's a lot of ground to cover potentially.

00:19:42
Speaker 1: It's true. And I asked the question about if we hadn't executed him, right? If we could have studied him, studied his mind, asked him. questions, gotten him to at least give more specifics for so many of these families who are left not really knowing what happened to their loved one. But then you have to weigh that against the fact that this guy was smart as hell and was able to escape. So was there a fear that somehow, I mean, look, we have prison escapes all the time. We report on them often. Would there have been a legitimate fear that somehow he could have escaped?

00:20:17
Speaker 2: He could have gotten away?

00:20:18
Speaker 1: Florida executed him. Well, we know they don't. They don't mess around in Florida. And yes, it was the electric chair back then in 1989. He probably wouldn't have escaped Florida. So then, you know, I know you can't undo it, but it is one of those other arguments you could make against the death penalty. That if he had stayed alive, what could we have learned? Not only about just what made him tick and maybe how to prevent death, someone like Ted Bundy from ever existing again, but also to find out what he actually did. How many women did he actually kill?

00:20:54
Speaker 2: I don't know how to balance that out.

00:20:56
Speaker 1: It's tough, right?

00:20:57
Speaker 2: The justice for the families and for the victims that he was convicted of killing versus what, allowing this guy to stay alive and toy with you. He's smarter than most. He has a better education, I should say, than most prison guards, right? He is trained in manipulation in a way. So, I don't know, they sit down with the FBI profile, they're having a good time for a little while, and can you take his word at it? Can we get something from him? Can we learn? Well, yeah, because that's why they have those FBI profiles. They study, and they learn about the next person. We've had some serial killers or killers ahead of time agree to be a part of being studied, if you will. So, yeah, there's a lot of what-ifs there. It's His brain, I don't know what they got out of him beforehand. I don't know how much he was studied or if anybody got to sit down with him. Did we learn anything that we applied later? I don't know.

00:21:47
Speaker 1: I don't know either. And I think that for the folks or for the investigators who.

00:21:53
Speaker 1: Disregarded some of what he said in those final hours as a, as like a pathetic attempt to live another day. Actually, it now turns out we were able to, cause he named these names and now it took whatever, four decades later to actually definitively say, Holy hell, he did actually murder those girls. And you, and you think about, I didn't, I was reading about his escape. The first one, he just, um, he was able to, to, to get out pretty easily. He, um, he convinced a judge to let him use the law library because he was pro se. He was defending himself in a kidnapping case. And he just walked, he just jumped out the window and just walked away. He was caught six days later. But the second one, you know, he lost 30 pounds in order to squeeze through an opening in the and then arranged law books, because he was studying law, in his bed to make it look like he was there, and the prison guards think he's there. Meantime, he's had plenty of time not only to leave the prison, but to then he boarded a flight to Chicago, took a train to Michigan, and then drove south to Atlanta, got on a bus to Tallahassee, all the entire time undetected. I don't think that could happen present day. He certainly couldn't have boarded a flight. Um.

00:23:10
Speaker 2: You would hope.

00:23:12
Speaker 1: I mean, you would hope.

00:23:13
Speaker 2: Was it that woman? Was it from Paris? The woman was able to hide on a plane and get past security? Weird things happen. And again, Robe, this is the scenario you just laid out is a comical one. It's one we see in cartoons almost. Let me just stick something under my covers and that'll fool... the prison guard, or fool my mama. We've seen that even in frickin' Ferris Bueller's Day Off. You tell me all he did was stick some books under... Okay. Well, you know what? At that point, when did his legend... Grow. Forgive the word that sounds complimentary. Yes. But at the time, was he, did we have the national fascination that we do now?

00:23:55
Speaker 1: Absolutely not.

00:23:56
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. Did they know what they had to keep a closer eye on this guy?

00:24:01
Speaker 1: They did not know what they had. And it was when, and the scary and sad thing, what ended up, getting him convicted and ultimately executed was after he escaped. People even said, how did prison guards weren't, wasn't anybody concerned or questioning the fact that he was literally on a hunger strike and lost 30 pounds in a pretty quick period of time? Like, why is he doing this?

00:24:22
Speaker 2: They never thought that they never.

00:24:24
Speaker 1: Thought it was too, he was creating a very small way for him. And he actually ended up, I don't know how he was able to do this, He was able to crawl through the ceiling and land or come down in a prison guard's office where he was able to change clothes into civilian clothes and just he walked out of prison. But once he did that, that's when he really went on that killing spree that I think, yes, made him famous. I remember being a college student at the University of Georgia. And being so scared because my dorm room was at the end of the hall near a stairwell. And at that time, everyone would talk about what happened at Florida State University and how Ted Bundy walked into that sorority house and killed those two sorority sisters. That ultimately happened. That ended up getting him executed. But he killed a 12-year-old girl. That's how he got caught. And we forget just about that, I believe, was his youngest victim, 12 years old. But if he hadn't escaped... None of those other murders would have happened. And who knows? Who knows what the course of history would have shown? Eventually, they probably would have found that he had a long, long, a huge number of bodies that were buried all throughout the mountains of the Pacific Northwest that were later to be discovered. But this man was someone who should have been studied. Someone who should have been offering some sort of map to authorities as to what he did, how he did it, how he got away with it, and how he could prevent it. I don't know if someone like that would have cooperated. I don't know if someone like that just would have continued to manipulate the situation. But we'll never know.

00:26:15
Speaker 2: A lot of us consider him an evil anomaly, and this shouldn't be studied or mercied or cooperating with. We're going to give you the ultimate punishment, and we're going to move on with our lives. Now, there are other families out there who might have taken objection to that. He has information. He can help us at the same time. What's the other side of that? He can also manipulate us. He can make this more painful. He can make this more difficult. I don't know what's right in this one, but yeah, the way we've heard lately even, You know, most prison breaks that are successful, at least that we've been hearing some high-profile ones, don't involve shooting your way out.

00:26:54
Speaker 1: No.

00:26:55
Speaker 2: Go under a fence. One guy even took a limo from, right? And this guy changes clothes, walks out.

00:27:03
Speaker 1: We've seen plenty of that as well. We saw in New Orleans the most famous one where he had those 10 inmates get out by just creating a hole, just taking out a toilet.

00:27:13
Speaker 2: Had all of them back in custody in a matter of weeks or a couple months, maybe, on some of them.

00:27:18
Speaker 1: There was one who held out for a while.

00:27:20
Speaker 2: That was the murderer, right? Found him in Atlanta. I still see him smiling when they picked him up. But that's, right, those guys, that was a jailbreak. They all ran out, running out. Yeah, didn't work. They all got caught again. It's something to hear how folks are able to manipulate their way out of a prison sometimes. And to hear that, That is the stuff of movies. He climbed out through the hole in the ceiling. Let me stick some book. That is insane.

00:27:48
Speaker 1: It is insane.

00:27:50
Speaker 2: Where is that prison guard? What happened to those prison guards who let that happen and caused this guy to continue to wreak havoc in the country? I wonder if they got fired, if they got charged. Again, a long time ago.

00:28:04
Speaker 1: Things are different today for sure, but it's still, it is remarkable to think that five decades later, Ted Bundy is still being connected to victims and families are still getting closure. I do love what police said at the end of this press conference where they made this big announcement linking this case to Ted Bundy. With every case closure, may we stomp The memory of Ted Bundy out. I know that's what his victims' families would like, and that's what police and law enforcement, I'm sure, are hoping to do. But in a lot of ways, it's keeping his very macabre legacy alive and becomes more legendary. And that is the fear, too, that you just. you make these murderers, these prolific serial killers, almost stars in their own right. I always worry a little bit about, we talk about copycats, we see it happen with school shooters, even with familicides that we've been talking about this year, where it almost puts the idea in someone's head. I would hope that maybe hearing that technology has evolved to where it is today, that it would serve as a deterrent for anyone who thinks they're gonna become the next Ted Bundy or the next John Wayne Gacy. You ain't gonna last that long. They're gonna find you, they're gonna nail this to you, and you're not going to be able to wreak havoc the way these frightening men. I mean, there is a reason why those serial killers were in those decades. We've had some recent ones, but it feels like the most horrific, the ones who were able to have, the most victims were able to do it before technology caught up to them.

00:29:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe that's the thing we should be highlighting and promoting most when crimes happen and detail the technology that was used. I just, I really don't, babe. It is hard to leave your phones behind. It doesn't matter what you, even that. That's suspicious. Why'd you leave your phone at home?

00:30:01
Speaker 1: During the exact hours where someone was killed, that's incriminating and damning in and of itself.

00:30:06
Speaker 2: Why was your phone off? Ran out of battery. Okay, we can check, actually. They can see how much. I can tell you right now how much juice Sabine has on her phone at school. These things are incredible. We were doing a crime earlier. Talking about one. They know when her car stopped at a red light. When the light turned green and then she went and made a U-turn, they can track everything.

00:30:29
Speaker 1: And so, yes, even if you're a master manipulator, you know, right, uh, towards the end of my time with ABC, I actually got to sit down. This was one of the most fascinating interviews I ever did with Ted Bundy's longtime girlfriend and her daughter who he helped raise for years. They were living in the Pacific Northwest. They would talk about, he would say he had to go somewhere. They had no idea. They were literally living with one of the most prolific serial killers in in the world. And that just goes to show you his level of, I hate to say genius, but his ability to manipulate that they didn't have a clue. They were gobsmacked to find out that this man who she slept in bed with every night, who picked up her daughter, who took care of her daughter, that he was the same person who was responsible for all of these deaths all around them, where they were living. That just goes to show you how manipulative he was and thank God for technology. That's where we are. And hopefully there will never be another Ted Bundy. All right. And with that, everyone, we always appreciate you. I'm Amy. That's TJ. We'll see you soon.