July 8, 2026
Rape Adjacent “Stealthing” Is NOT A Crime In America, Even Though It’s Considered A Form Of Sexual Battery
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RSS Feed The term “stealthing” is making headlines after Maine Democrat and Senatorial Candidate Graham Platner has been accused by an ex-girlfriend of repeatedly removing condoms without her consent during sex. We did a deep dive on the subject and were fascinated and frustrated by the lack of recognition from lawmakers in this country about NCCR: Nonconsensual condom removal. Several countries around the world have strict, criminal code on stealthing, categorizing it as a “rape adjacent” crime. Right now, only a handful of states allow victims to pursue civil damages, but not a single jurisdiction in this country considers stealthing a crime.
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00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks, and welcome to the show. TJ. Holmes here alongside Amy Roeboch and today's topic, rogue, is not one I necessarily thought anywhere in our broadcasting careers we would be talking about secret condom removal and a Senate candidate. That's a real headline and you can't be dismissive of it or think it's just isolated. Robes, I cannot believe this start.
00:00:25
Speaker 2: Initially, it is one of those moments where you think, how are we actually talking about this when we're talking about our government, members of Congress or potential members of Congress. And then something so specific, very and something that has actually only recently I think, become a topic of conversation and has become something that is widely considered a criminal act.
00:00:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the thing is it is up for debate because our law makers have yet to make it a crime. Stealthing. You're all familiar with this. Stealthing is what it's called now it has more specific language. But Robes, I think maybe even if you didn't know the name, I think a lot of people women are particular, are aware of this, fearful of this, and have even experienced this.
00:01:21
Speaker 2: Yes, and look, I did not know the term stealthing. I learned of it through this story. Obviously, I've heard of this happening to women and the concerns and the real fears that it elicites.
00:01:34
Speaker 3: This is a can.
00:01:36
Speaker 2: Can cause mental anguish, it can cause physiological anguish, It can result in an STD, It can result in a unwanted pregnancy. There are serious consequences that can come from someone removing a condom without your permission.
00:01:54
Speaker 3: Why isn't it criminal?
00:01:55
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't it be criminal when you have all of those possible outcomes and at the very least it's against someone's will.
00:02:04
Speaker 1: But there is where the gray area falls. Roges is because the gray area is you were having sex with somebody that you consented to.
00:02:10
Speaker 3: Have sex with under certain terms.
00:02:13
Speaker 1: That there is the next layer, and this is where the gray area and why they have been hesitant. I suppose Robes, at least in the United States, pass laws that make this criminal behavior. But yes, it is a violation. The trick or the problem there robes the gray area. As they say, how is it you end up saying I was raped by someone that you consented to have sex with the rape or the sexual violence or the violation comes in because that person takes a condom off and now the agreement to have sex is off. I didn't consent to this type of sex, and so some saying that is rape or at least a violation or sexual violence. But Robes, we have been very slow in this country, not excuse me, not even slow. We ain't doing it yet in this country, at least criminalizing this.
00:03:01
Speaker 3: Yes, that is very true.
00:03:02
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of folks call this and I'm comfortable with calling this rape adjacent, calling it rape. I understand why some people would call it that and prefer to refer to it that way. I think that's a little extreme. I think it's rape adjacent absolutely, because you are still having something done to you that you didn't agree, that could have serious real life consequences.
00:03:26
Speaker 3: That we just pointed out, and to.
00:03:28
Speaker 2: Have a woman not know, I think that's just an incredible feeling of betrayal.
00:03:32
Speaker 3: Even if nothing happens.
00:03:34
Speaker 2: Okay, say fine, you don't get an STI or an STD you don't end up getting pregnant, that's not the point. What a betrayal to think you've agreed to do something very personal, very intimate, under certain conditions, and then to find out later that someone violated the terms of that agreement, isn't that even worse?
00:03:53
Speaker 1: Well, excuse me, I could say too, And some do argue it can feel worse or like more of a violation because you've trusted this person. If it happens to someone you're actually in a relationship with in dating, what a violation? What a lie?
00:04:07
Speaker 3: Roped?
00:04:08
Speaker 1: That is an incredible You are not given control or agency over your own body, your health, even your reproductive health, when somebody does that, and when you take that away from somebody robes. Yes, the term often used is rape adjacent. There are plenty other advocates out there who said this needs to be a crime and that it is in fact rape and robes. It has an official name now we're talking about it, and colloquially it's known as stealthing. But robes and looking up, that's the only term I had ever heard, robes. This has been studied the Institutes of Health, every major medical organization out there has been trying to do more research about this in recent years. And yes, there's an acronym.
00:04:47
Speaker 3: For Yeah, it has an official acronym.
00:04:49
Speaker 2: It's NCCR, which stands for non consensual condom removal.
00:04:55
Speaker 1: It sounds simple enough, sound that's correct. The robes stealthing is one robes. This is considered now something a growing problem that is probably bigger than we think. Why because nobody wants to come forward and talk about that. Bro, this is really intimate and personal rape is one thing, but to say to come out and say, yeah, this person that I trusted snuck and pulled a condom off, and the mile of scro they say, this is wildly underreported.
00:05:24
Speaker 2: It's wildly underreported, and it was interesting because it isn't something that's talked about very often, because yes, it is so specific, it is so intimate, it is embarrassing to have a conversation. And then I think a lot of women might think to themselves, wait, did I agree to that? When did that happen? How did that happen? Maybe he misunderstood. So oftentimes we try to understand our role in it, and maybe there was a miscommunication. And it does get even more complicated because there is a question as to in the heat of the moment, was it agreed upon, was it acknowledged, was it confirmed? And there's just so much that's going on leading up to and during sex. It can be confusing, and I actually saw so many women because coming up when I was single, I don't remember anyone talking about this or discussing this that much. But now we've got the Internet, We've got reddits, we've got basically forms that people can women can go on to and anonymously ask questions and engage the temperature of other women. Has this happened to you? What do you do if this happens to you? There are so many questions out there, recent threads of women asking is this a crime? Can I report him? What are my options?
00:06:35
Speaker 3: What should I do? What tests should I get? How afraid should I be?
00:06:38
Speaker 2: There is just so much that's unknown, I think in terms of what your options are if you are a victim of this.
00:06:46
Speaker 1: The other problem there sometimes too, Robes, they were talking about what women question? They question did it really happen? And was it an accident? Right? The guy will oftentimes say it broke or there was some other issue and not take response ability. Rob This is this needs there's an awareness here because there's a real danger and like you said, Robes, this is not some victimless crime now, And just because Robes, I can imagine I cannot imagine this violation.
00:07:17
Speaker 2: Now.
00:07:18
Speaker 1: I don't know if they'll ever get to the point of calling it rape, I would be on board. I mean, robes, I don't know if they ever will, but a violation of someone in that way, I just cannot imagine that feeling. And there's one of women have talked about anger and confusion, but also shame and embarrassment and also feeling alone. Who are you going to go talk to about this?
00:07:45
Speaker 2: Is?
00:07:45
Speaker 1: It isn't talked about that much most of the recent research just in the past five or six years. It's been going on well before that, but now it's starting to be looked at more. And we in this country robes do not criminalize it anywhere any state that we do not have a state that considers this a criminal act. They add it to their civil code, so a woman could go back and she could sue and seek damages. Well, if that feels even worse, I'm going to sue you in court and want to get some money from you because you tricked me during sex.
00:08:19
Speaker 2: And I'm curious too, because look, in terms of the confusion, I do know how women think, at least I know how I think, and what I've talked about with my girlfriends. But if you like this guy, even like there are so many different nuanced situations, you don't want to complain and you want to believe him if he tells you it was an accident or that he forgot, or that it broke. But then those lingering questions are what did he really really intend by doing this? And the question would be for me also motive. Was he doing this because it just feels better to not have a condom on? Was he doing this out of power and control? Was he doing this because hell, he just can, because he's a man and it's his right to have sex without a condom? You know, there are all sorts of different reasons why a man might do this, and I think us women, especially if we like the guy, want to believe that he wasn't malintended. But does that should that even matter if he made a choice for whatever reason, if he made a choice to deceive or to pretend that he was wearing a condom, And what is his culpability if he forgot?
00:09:25
Speaker 3: I don't know, is that possible? Do you forget to put on a condent?
00:09:28
Speaker 2: Do not?
00:09:29
Speaker 1: Okay, you absolutely do not. There's an agreement, there's an understanding, and both parties know exactly what's supposed to happen, and you violate that in the middle, and you do it without the woman knowing bro that is it's obviously it's dangerous in a lot of ways, but a violation beyond words to a certain degree, ropes. You can't compare the type of sexual assaults necessarily, but rope just to have somebody trusted, and there have been cases around the world. We do not criminalize it. There are other places who do, but they've only passed their laws even in recent years. Robes we have here. Where are they? Where are they? Switzerland, New Zealand, Canada, UK, Germany, Singapore, just to name a few. But some states. California was the first. California was the first state to pass a law that robes gave women an option, but it wasn't an option to go after the violator in criminal court to charge them with a crime.
00:10:27
Speaker 2: You can just seek civil damages something I guess it is. But it is interesting to have it classified as a sexual assault, but to not have it classified as a crime.
00:10:38
Speaker 3: Explain that to me.
00:10:39
Speaker 2: I don't know how lawmakers can say yes and have most of the if not all, of the medical or scientific community, acknowledge and accept the fact that this is a form of sexual assault, of non consensual sexual assault. How then could you make the argument that it's not a crime?
00:10:57
Speaker 1: How is this not sexual assault? I wonder I would love to hear the other side to make this. I don't know, like it doesn't rise to the level of criminality. I just don't know how anybody could get in front of a camera and get in front of Congress and make an argument that this isn't a violation. I don't know. Rote And maybe some people are listening to this and go, it's not that big of a deal. Now, it shouldn't be criminal.
00:11:20
Speaker 2: I don't know, baby, I don't know that any man can understand fully what it's like for a woman to recognize that this has happened to her. And look, there are options for some women in some states to take preventative measures if this has happened to try and avoid a pregnancy.
00:11:39
Speaker 3: But with Roe v.
00:11:40
Speaker 2: Wade being overturned and many women not having access to the type of care we had access to before in terms of terminating unwanted pregnancies or making sure that that potential unwanted pregnancy doesn't actually come into fruition if you don't have.
00:11:57
Speaker 3: The access to prevent that.
00:12:00
Speaker 2: And on top of it, a man can not wear a condom and there's no crime involved even if you didn't consent to that. That is such a scary situation for so many women to be in in this country, where our rights have been taken away after the fact, and now we have no course of action if our rights are taken away without our consent beforehand.
00:12:22
Speaker 1: Reproductive coersion is the other way they put it, reproductive coersion. That goes to what you're just saying. Well, if you're actually saying that this guy can do this to this woman and then she can't terminate the pregnancy, correct and sense a loss of complete control of your own body.
00:12:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, you think about that, before, during, and after. A woman has no rights or at least no way to pursue justice if those rights were taken away from her beforehand or during. That to me is outrageous. Just saying it out loud makes me so angry.
00:12:54
Speaker 3: You have daughters. I have daughters.
00:12:56
Speaker 2: The idea that least in this state, they have options, have the ability to do something.
00:13:01
Speaker 3: If something happened to them.
00:13:02
Speaker 2: They can go and they can they can take a pill, they can do something, they can go to the doctor, they can find a way to make sure that that pregnancy doesn't continue. But so many women don't have those options.
00:13:16
Speaker 1: It shouldn't be on the woman. We're talking about what her options.
00:13:18
Speaker 3: Are always afterwards when it comes to that.
00:13:21
Speaker 1: But even in that, well she has options afterwards, Well she can go get a morning after pill. Well she can. No, that's not she should have the option in the moment robes. And I don't know if there is going to be. I don't feel like there's momentum necessarily. Now New York actually just joined what California, Washington. I'm missing one Washington state. I'm missing some other state. But they're only Maine, Maine.
00:13:44
Speaker 2: It was Maine, obviously, of course, because Maine is a whole part of this conversation.
00:13:49
Speaker 1: But those are the only ones. But they have added it to their civil.
00:13:52
Speaker 3: Code against civil not criminal.
00:13:54
Speaker 1: You can sue. Do not if this happens to you, do not go to the police station and say I have been violated.
00:14:00
Speaker 3: Let me ask you this as a man.
00:14:01
Speaker 2: Look, I understand that is it fair to say that most of these occurrences take place because a man has diminished pleasure when he's wearing a condom.
00:14:10
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't get into a man's mindset, but yes, it's a totally different experience.
00:14:15
Speaker 2: Yes, that would be the general That would be my idea. I have no idea the difference.
00:14:19
Speaker 1: That's fair to guess that that's the motivation overwhelmingly, yes.
00:14:22
Speaker 2: Okay, So the motivation is that if a man knew if he did that and took off his condom without first making sure the woman he was with was okay with it, if he knew that he could be prosecuted criminally. Do you not think that would serve as a significant deterrent to.
00:14:38
Speaker 1: Set man ropes? Make the announcement this is now a crime punishable for up to up to five years in prison.
00:14:44
Speaker 3: Yes, men are going to keep their condoms off.
00:14:46
Speaker 1: I think that will change behavior, and I would encourage you every woman to run out as soon as it happens rope. That would change, This would absolutely change things. Of Course, you're going to have some out there who still do it. Of course you're going to have some women out there who still wouldn't come. But robes. That's a major deterrent and saying what we always say, women are taken seriously, women aren't protected. This is another kind of an easy one if you will.
00:15:09
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:15:10
Speaker 2: And by not criminalizing it, by refusing to criminalize it, and that you are sending a message that is okay, boys will be boys. They need to have the sexual pleasure that they're owed.
00:15:20
Speaker 3: I mean it.
00:15:21
Speaker 2: Really, by not criminalizing it, that is a loud and deafening message you were sending to men and to women about what their worth is, what their value is, what their rights are.
00:15:31
Speaker 1: Well, you talk about men robes and the signal it does send. And the reason this did come up and the reason we were talking about it, Rhoades, is because of a man in Maine, in particular, a Senate Canada Democratic Senate candidate Robes. He was going through all kinds of hell. He had Scandalaptus Canada, Graham Platiner. People know that name. But in one of the accusations he was having in the midst of the campaign, a woman came forward in Robes the headlines Jesus crime in me. I never thought in my life I would a headline that a Senate candidate woman comes forward claims he took condoms off during sex without her knowledge. What and Robes I see that and go, holy hell, this is awful for politics, another scandal. But Robes, we stopped for a moment, go wow, this is an important story now, an important something for women to be aware of. And yes, I'm glad we plucked this out of the headline. This is so worth talking about and putting on people's radar.
00:16:29
Speaker 2: Absolutely, because it's to be honest, I don't think this is a conversation I have ever had in my life publicly with girlfriends, with anyone. I've just never had this conversation. And that's part of the problem. Let's have this conversation. Let's go on the record and say this is absolutely wrong. It is damaging, It is a violation, and yes, I believe it should be criminal. And it's interesting too because I think you looked it up. The prevalence of this we don't really know because just like rape, it's underreported. It's embarrassing. People don't want to talk about this type of thing, but they believe it's anywhere from eight percent.
00:17:08
Speaker 1: To forty three is the number there.
00:17:10
Speaker 2: Forty three percent of women have experienced this, and I think if women actually ask themselves and think back and say, wow, that happened to me. But I didn't even know to be upset about it. I didn't even notice say something about it. I didn't even think I had the right to complain about it. I really do think, especially when you go back decades and you start the way we have changed. Our mindset has evolved. Thankfully, it's going in the right direction. It's not where we should be. But I do feel like younger women now feel much more empowered to stand up for what their bodies are worth, what they want, and what they don't want to happen. Because look, I think the excruciating period of time to wait, did I just get HIV? Did I just get chlamytia? Some of these tests take weeks to find.
00:17:58
Speaker 3: Out the results.
00:17:59
Speaker 2: So now you are subjected to just this awful delay of waiting and wondering and spiraling. Did this person just put a deadly disease in me? Or really shitty, awful, horrible infection that I'm now going to have to deal with that I should not be subjected to.
00:18:17
Speaker 3: It's awful to think about it.
00:18:18
Speaker 1: And this just hit hit me. Now we're talking about women, what they have ability to do stealthing now being in the headlines or should be talked about, and women given all these tools, shouldn't we start at the top by telling men not to do this? Right?
00:18:37
Speaker 3: We all?
00:18:38
Speaker 2: We?
00:18:38
Speaker 1: Once again, you just said it it's on the woman, Like somebody somewhere we should all that's men, fine, but somewhere in the education of men and the teaching of young men, this should also be drilled into their heads. This is never, under any circumstance okay to do and okay to violate a woman, never okay to do this. I don't know, Rodes. We probably do this all the time, don't we. We're telling women what to do, given them tools. We need to pass a law to tell dudes to stop, to start behaving appropriately. That's too bad. So just want to make sure, Robes we balance that out with The point is and the onus is on the man to not behave in this way, to not behave in this way. And you mentioned the numbers, Robes, they also have numbers that show this happens to quite a few men as well.
00:19:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, in homosexual relationships you have men doing this to other men as well. So it's yes, that is a very good point. It's not just it happening to women. It happens to the male partners in homosexual relationships, and that makes a lot of sense to the same. I thought it was interesting I was reading some of the same studies. They said, there is the amount of women who are responsible for this zero percent, because no woman who wants a condom on is going to say, take the condom off of the man without him noticing, Like, obviously, that would never happen. This is all about men's behavior period. Just that seems silly to point out, but it was actually pointed out in one of the articles, and I thought, yeah, that was hilarious to even imagine a woman stealthily trying to remove a man's condom, just you know, without him knowing it because she wants to get pregnant. I guess would be the only thing I could think of. But there are no documented cases of such.
00:20:26
Speaker 1: Nor will there ever be.
00:20:28
Speaker 3: No, it's not a thing. It's not a thing.
00:20:32
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I actually giggled thinking about it as well.
00:20:35
Speaker 3: That's a hilarious thing to even have to reference.
00:20:37
Speaker 1: We needed that laugh. That's fine, It's.
00:20:40
Speaker 2: It is heavy when you think about this. This senate candidate. I would imagine at this point everyone's pretty familiar with his name, Graham Plattner.
00:20:48
Speaker 3: But the fact that he just.
00:20:50
Speaker 2: A few days ago was also accused of rape by an ex girlfriend. To have the following day another ex girlfriend accuse him of this, and to know that it's rape adjacent, it all makes sense. It's a pattern of behavior he is being accused of.
00:21:04
Speaker 1: And look, Graham Plattner and what happened. Look, if nothing else came out of that bad situation, it gave an opportunity to bring something to the headlines and remind people of something and what your options are, and maybe even push a little bit ro Is it possible that this being in the headlines, this story could push legislators, could push people to get motivated to bring this to their legislators, to say, hey, something needs to be done here. I just don't know where robe that me should probably look up a little more opposition, But I don't know where anyone is pushing and saying this is not sexual violence. And here's why.
00:21:41
Speaker 2: I would love to hear that argument, because I can't imagine that it would exist. And I do agree that a story like this that is surrounding a political candidate, and all the headlines are about whether or not he's going to step down, whether or not he should step down, whether or not he should even be considered as a Senate candidate. Yes, that obviously is the big headline. But the other huge headline is yes, we as women should be paying attention to this. We should be speaking up and speaking loudly and writing and encouraging our lawmakers to push this type of legislation through. I know it's difficult to get anything past these days, but who would be on the record saying they're against criminalizing criminal behavior against women?
00:22:26
Speaker 1: You have to be a man a woman.
00:22:29
Speaker 2: No, And I cannot imagine that not having an impact on female voters anyone up for reelection.
00:22:36
Speaker 3: This type of thing matters.
00:22:37
Speaker 2: And if we're loud enough and we come together, and men and women should both be on board because every man who has a daughter, who has a female relative that they love and respect, this affects everybody. And this is an important conversation that really hasn't been had. And I think also something else this headline could do empower women to stand up for themselves more. I think sometimes we feel like we don't want to rock the boat. We don't want to upset the guy we're into. We want him to like us. But if we don't want an unwanted pregnancy, we don't want to be on any sort of birth control, and we don't want an STD. I want to imagine all of those are things women want. I know the owners shouldn't be on us, but maybe it empowers women to use their voice more and to be more clear and to say we will not be having sex unless you put on a condom.
00:23:29
Speaker 1: Again, I'm sure a lot of women have said that to some guy who ended up doing well what Graham platnir and what somewhat forty percent of women maybe experience. The other part of that rope you said empowers women. Part of that is just it might empower them just to have a conversation and realize that there are other people in their friend group who might have the same issue. Robes. You just said, look at you, You're going to your whole life. Never had a conversation, Nope about this, Nope.
00:23:57
Speaker 2: But I can reflect back, and you can look at conversations you've had with folks and realize, Wow, we were dancing around things that actually were that needed to be discussed and that needed to be Boundaries needed to be drawn, conversations needed to be had, and a lot of folks, look, this is uncomfortable to talk about sex, especially before you have sex.
00:24:17
Speaker 3: It's kind of.
00:24:17
Speaker 2: A a mood killer sometimes, but you.
00:24:23
Speaker 3: Have to have it.
00:24:24
Speaker 1: It's a mood killer.
00:24:25
Speaker 2: Well, I can understand it's something you might want to avoid because it does take away from the moment.
00:24:31
Speaker 1: But you cad, there is no argument about that. It can be uncomfortable, especially with a new partner. Yep, but bro, this is a conversation that has to be had. And even though we said yes in the United States, this is not a crime, it is a crime in other places. And yes, folks have been convicted, and yes people have gotten pretty long prison sentences for stealthy.
00:25:07
Speaker 3: Welcome back everyone.
00:25:08
Speaker 2: We are talking about something that has not been criminalized in this country.
00:25:14
Speaker 3: It has an official acronym.
00:25:15
Speaker 2: It's called NCCR, which stands for non Consensual condom removal, colloquially known as stealthing. And while yes, it is not yet a crime here in this country, there are lawmakers working to at least give the opportunity to women to pursue or in men to pursue civil charges if this happens to them. But other countries are way ahead of us when it comes to criminalizing this, and among them mostly it's Europe.
00:25:47
Speaker 3: I guess New Zealand. Australia has several counties or provinces.
00:25:52
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how they describe areas that have also criminalized this act, but there have been some significant convictions around the world in recent years regarding stealthy but it's.
00:26:03
Speaker 1: All recent because this is still a very new thing. But in Europe they are getting on board, in particular Rose with criminalizing this. Germany, this all of these we're going to list here, we're seen as landmark cases robes in all of these places. But Germany had one in which a police officer was sentenced to eight months in prison and fine. Now eight months in prison doesn't sound like a lot that ended up getting reduced to six months, but this was a police officer in Germany. This was back in twenty eighteen, so that's I can tell you. At least in the past decade. Other places have been looking at this a little more seriously, which.
00:26:35
Speaker 3: Is kind of remarkable. Eight years ago.
00:26:38
Speaker 2: A police officer, which we know makes it even more difficult oftentimes, at least in this country for there to be a conviction, because there's a presumption of knowing right and wrong and.
00:26:46
Speaker 3: Upholding the law.
00:26:48
Speaker 2: But the fact that I mean eight months still seems like a long time for taking a condom off, Well.
00:26:52
Speaker 1: That ain't nothing compared to what a man in the UK got. This was the following year. Now there are some cases and this was one. Robes is another the one in New Zealand we'll discuss in a second, but this was one that happened involving a sex worker. So someone goes in a john, wants to have sex with someone. Obviously you have to have a condom on. Remove the condom during the sex with a sex worker. Now they robes. You start doing this in the US, it'll change behavior. Because this guy got twelve years twelve years in prison for this.
00:27:25
Speaker 2: A man will have a stash of condoms with him at all times and keep them on at all times if you know that if you get convicted, their consequences taking a condom off during sex without first confirming that with a woman twelve years in prison. Wow. And then in New Zealand in twenty twenty one, a man was sentenced to three years and nine months that.
00:27:49
Speaker 3: Also was with a sex worker.
00:27:51
Speaker 2: And then in twenty twenty three in the Netherlands a man was convicted. He did get a suspended sentence, But look, it's something to even have that conviction, to have a rap sheet, to have a criminal conviction on your record as a sex crime.
00:28:05
Speaker 3: For this act.
00:28:07
Speaker 2: And look, I know we're a lot of times in this country slow to follow suit on a lot of things. And I just this story out of Maine and this ex girlfriend.
00:28:19
Speaker 3: It actually happened in DC, So if it.
00:28:21
Speaker 2: Had happened in Maine, she could possibly pursue civil charges at least in that stage she would have a recourse in DC. That isn't likely, but certainly this is changing the course of an election potentially, and it could have, I would hope, an impact on potentially legislation going forward in this country.
00:28:44
Speaker 1: There is a man sitting in who got twelve years in prison in the UK for doing what a senate candidate here in the US was accused of doing six times.
00:28:56
Speaker 3: At least. She claims there is not.
00:28:58
Speaker 1: A jurisdiction in the United States. He could have committed that and it would have been a crime nowhere could he have done that, and it would have been a crime that she could have gone to police about. Meanwhile, there's a guy in the UK that got twelve years, there's a guy in New Zealand the gut almost four years. Right, it's just folks view it differently. I don't know Robes. I just haven't seen and I would like to hear the argument. I'm not dismissing someone, but to say, hey, this is why this is a step too far in criminalizing this. I just I haven't heard an argument that I embrace yet, and I'm open to it. I just haven't heard why this should not be criminalized doing something like this to someone Robes.
00:29:43
Speaker 2: It it's deceptive and it has and it's a betrayal, and it's a breach in understanding and it has real life consequences. So how that isn't a crime, I don't know. But there is a federal bill sitting stuck in committee, per usual with this country and the way our laws are so slowly made.
00:30:07
Speaker 1: But Robes same thing. It's not going to criminalize, right, It's been sitting there. It was introduced by a California Republican, Norma Toure excuse me, Democrat in California. But it's been sitting there, stuck in committee. But yes, the Stealth Act of twenty twenty five is just sitting there. But again, Ropes, it would not criminalize. It would give women the option to go after someone in civil court. So I guess that's a step, but we haven't even taken it. That's a step, but we haven't even gone. And don't know what. It's just languishing and just sitting there like a lot of stuff doesn't gone.
00:30:41
Speaker 2: So nowhere in any state, no is there anyone, no trying to make this a criminal act.
00:30:51
Speaker 1: New York just passed THEIRS and it was civil. The one sitting in Congress civil, the other three that already been passed civil, So there is This is not a ground swell right now, Robes. But who knows if this will change things. But it's going to take more than us. It's going to take more than you. It's going to take a whole bunch of women right making noise. And we shall see. This was a tough one, Robes, Stealthy just something else needs to be aware.
00:31:20
Speaker 3: Look, and I do think it's a start.
00:31:22
Speaker 2: We have to start somewhere and so maybe perhaps news of this, and specifically as it pertains to Grand Platner, maybe this is the launch pad that this effort needed, and certainly to bring it to my attention, to bring it to other women's attention. We may have been aware that this was happening, but I don't think maybe we've considered it the way and looked at it through the lens in which it should be viewed.
00:31:45
Speaker 3: As a crime.
00:31:46
Speaker 2: And I think when we start looking at it like that and thinking about it in that way, even if it's not on the books, we can react and respond differently as women and hopefully men also will take note and they will look at the story, they will hear the story, they will see what's happening around the world, and look, maybe we can start to make changes here in this country where there are actual consequences for this criminal behavior.
00:32:10
Speaker 1: All right, well, folks, I always appreciate you coming along well us. As always for my dear Amy Robot, I'm TJ. Holmes. We'll talk to you all soon.
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks, and welcome to the show. TJ. Holmes here alongside Amy Roeboch and today's topic, rogue, is not one I necessarily thought anywhere in our broadcasting careers we would be talking about secret condom removal and a Senate candidate. That's a real headline and you can't be dismissive of it or think it's just isolated. Robes, I cannot believe this start.
00:00:25
Speaker 2: Initially, it is one of those moments where you think, how are we actually talking about this when we're talking about our government, members of Congress or potential members of Congress. And then something so specific, very and something that has actually only recently I think, become a topic of conversation and has become something that is widely considered a criminal act.
00:00:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the thing is it is up for debate because our law makers have yet to make it a crime. Stealthing. You're all familiar with this. Stealthing is what it's called now it has more specific language. But Robes, I think maybe even if you didn't know the name, I think a lot of people women are particular, are aware of this, fearful of this, and have even experienced this.
00:01:21
Speaker 2: Yes, and look, I did not know the term stealthing. I learned of it through this story. Obviously, I've heard of this happening to women and the concerns and the real fears that it elicites.
00:01:34
Speaker 3: This is a can.
00:01:36
Speaker 2: Can cause mental anguish, it can cause physiological anguish, It can result in an STD, It can result in a unwanted pregnancy. There are serious consequences that can come from someone removing a condom without your permission.
00:01:54
Speaker 3: Why isn't it criminal?
00:01:55
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't it be criminal when you have all of those possible outcomes and at the very least it's against someone's will.
00:02:04
Speaker 1: But there is where the gray area falls. Roges is because the gray area is you were having sex with somebody that you consented to.
00:02:10
Speaker 3: Have sex with under certain terms.
00:02:13
Speaker 1: That there is the next layer, and this is where the gray area and why they have been hesitant. I suppose Robes, at least in the United States, pass laws that make this criminal behavior. But yes, it is a violation. The trick or the problem there robes the gray area. As they say, how is it you end up saying I was raped by someone that you consented to have sex with the rape or the sexual violence or the violation comes in because that person takes a condom off and now the agreement to have sex is off. I didn't consent to this type of sex, and so some saying that is rape or at least a violation or sexual violence. But Robes, we have been very slow in this country, not excuse me, not even slow. We ain't doing it yet in this country, at least criminalizing this.
00:03:01
Speaker 3: Yes, that is very true.
00:03:02
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of folks call this and I'm comfortable with calling this rape adjacent, calling it rape. I understand why some people would call it that and prefer to refer to it that way. I think that's a little extreme. I think it's rape adjacent absolutely, because you are still having something done to you that you didn't agree, that could have serious real life consequences.
00:03:26
Speaker 3: That we just pointed out, and to.
00:03:28
Speaker 2: Have a woman not know, I think that's just an incredible feeling of betrayal.
00:03:32
Speaker 3: Even if nothing happens.
00:03:34
Speaker 2: Okay, say fine, you don't get an STI or an STD you don't end up getting pregnant, that's not the point. What a betrayal to think you've agreed to do something very personal, very intimate, under certain conditions, and then to find out later that someone violated the terms of that agreement, isn't that even worse?
00:03:53
Speaker 1: Well, excuse me, I could say too, And some do argue it can feel worse or like more of a violation because you've trusted this person. If it happens to someone you're actually in a relationship with in dating, what a violation? What a lie?
00:04:07
Speaker 3: Roped?
00:04:08
Speaker 1: That is an incredible You are not given control or agency over your own body, your health, even your reproductive health, when somebody does that, and when you take that away from somebody robes. Yes, the term often used is rape adjacent. There are plenty other advocates out there who said this needs to be a crime and that it is in fact rape and robes. It has an official name now we're talking about it, and colloquially it's known as stealthing. But robes and looking up, that's the only term I had ever heard, robes. This has been studied the Institutes of Health, every major medical organization out there has been trying to do more research about this in recent years. And yes, there's an acronym.
00:04:47
Speaker 3: For Yeah, it has an official acronym.
00:04:49
Speaker 2: It's NCCR, which stands for non consensual condom removal.
00:04:55
Speaker 1: It sounds simple enough, sound that's correct. The robes stealthing is one robes. This is considered now something a growing problem that is probably bigger than we think. Why because nobody wants to come forward and talk about that. Bro, this is really intimate and personal rape is one thing, but to say to come out and say, yeah, this person that I trusted snuck and pulled a condom off, and the mile of scro they say, this is wildly underreported.
00:05:24
Speaker 2: It's wildly underreported, and it was interesting because it isn't something that's talked about very often, because yes, it is so specific, it is so intimate, it is embarrassing to have a conversation. And then I think a lot of women might think to themselves, wait, did I agree to that? When did that happen? How did that happen? Maybe he misunderstood. So oftentimes we try to understand our role in it, and maybe there was a miscommunication. And it does get even more complicated because there is a question as to in the heat of the moment, was it agreed upon, was it acknowledged, was it confirmed? And there's just so much that's going on leading up to and during sex. It can be confusing, and I actually saw so many women because coming up when I was single, I don't remember anyone talking about this or discussing this that much. But now we've got the Internet, We've got reddits, we've got basically forms that people can women can go on to and anonymously ask questions and engage the temperature of other women. Has this happened to you? What do you do if this happens to you? There are so many questions out there, recent threads of women asking is this a crime? Can I report him? What are my options?
00:06:35
Speaker 3: What should I do? What tests should I get? How afraid should I be?
00:06:38
Speaker 2: There is just so much that's unknown, I think in terms of what your options are if you are a victim of this.
00:06:46
Speaker 1: The other problem there sometimes too, Robes, they were talking about what women question? They question did it really happen? And was it an accident? Right? The guy will oftentimes say it broke or there was some other issue and not take response ability. Rob This is this needs there's an awareness here because there's a real danger and like you said, Robes, this is not some victimless crime now, And just because Robes, I can imagine I cannot imagine this violation.
00:07:17
Speaker 2: Now.
00:07:18
Speaker 1: I don't know if they'll ever get to the point of calling it rape, I would be on board. I mean, robes, I don't know if they ever will, but a violation of someone in that way, I just cannot imagine that feeling. And there's one of women have talked about anger and confusion, but also shame and embarrassment and also feeling alone. Who are you going to go talk to about this?
00:07:45
Speaker 2: Is?
00:07:45
Speaker 1: It isn't talked about that much most of the recent research just in the past five or six years. It's been going on well before that, but now it's starting to be looked at more. And we in this country robes do not criminalize it anywhere any state that we do not have a state that considers this a criminal act. They add it to their civil code, so a woman could go back and she could sue and seek damages. Well, if that feels even worse, I'm going to sue you in court and want to get some money from you because you tricked me during sex.
00:08:19
Speaker 2: And I'm curious too, because look, in terms of the confusion, I do know how women think, at least I know how I think, and what I've talked about with my girlfriends. But if you like this guy, even like there are so many different nuanced situations, you don't want to complain and you want to believe him if he tells you it was an accident or that he forgot, or that it broke. But then those lingering questions are what did he really really intend by doing this? And the question would be for me also motive. Was he doing this because it just feels better to not have a condom on? Was he doing this out of power and control? Was he doing this because hell, he just can, because he's a man and it's his right to have sex without a condom? You know, there are all sorts of different reasons why a man might do this, and I think us women, especially if we like the guy, want to believe that he wasn't malintended. But does that should that even matter if he made a choice for whatever reason, if he made a choice to deceive or to pretend that he was wearing a condom, And what is his culpability if he forgot?
00:09:25
Speaker 3: I don't know, is that possible? Do you forget to put on a condent?
00:09:28
Speaker 2: Do not?
00:09:29
Speaker 1: Okay, you absolutely do not. There's an agreement, there's an understanding, and both parties know exactly what's supposed to happen, and you violate that in the middle, and you do it without the woman knowing bro that is it's obviously it's dangerous in a lot of ways, but a violation beyond words to a certain degree, ropes. You can't compare the type of sexual assaults necessarily, but rope just to have somebody trusted, and there have been cases around the world. We do not criminalize it. There are other places who do, but they've only passed their laws even in recent years. Robes we have here. Where are they? Where are they? Switzerland, New Zealand, Canada, UK, Germany, Singapore, just to name a few. But some states. California was the first. California was the first state to pass a law that robes gave women an option, but it wasn't an option to go after the violator in criminal court to charge them with a crime.
00:10:27
Speaker 2: You can just seek civil damages something I guess it is. But it is interesting to have it classified as a sexual assault, but to not have it classified as a crime.
00:10:38
Speaker 3: Explain that to me.
00:10:39
Speaker 2: I don't know how lawmakers can say yes and have most of the if not all, of the medical or scientific community, acknowledge and accept the fact that this is a form of sexual assault, of non consensual sexual assault. How then could you make the argument that it's not a crime?
00:10:57
Speaker 1: How is this not sexual assault? I wonder I would love to hear the other side to make this. I don't know, like it doesn't rise to the level of criminality. I just don't know how anybody could get in front of a camera and get in front of Congress and make an argument that this isn't a violation. I don't know. Rote And maybe some people are listening to this and go, it's not that big of a deal. Now, it shouldn't be criminal.
00:11:20
Speaker 2: I don't know, baby, I don't know that any man can understand fully what it's like for a woman to recognize that this has happened to her. And look, there are options for some women in some states to take preventative measures if this has happened to try and avoid a pregnancy.
00:11:39
Speaker 3: But with Roe v.
00:11:40
Speaker 2: Wade being overturned and many women not having access to the type of care we had access to before in terms of terminating unwanted pregnancies or making sure that that potential unwanted pregnancy doesn't actually come into fruition if you don't have.
00:11:57
Speaker 3: The access to prevent that.
00:12:00
Speaker 2: And on top of it, a man can not wear a condom and there's no crime involved even if you didn't consent to that. That is such a scary situation for so many women to be in in this country, where our rights have been taken away after the fact, and now we have no course of action if our rights are taken away without our consent beforehand.
00:12:22
Speaker 1: Reproductive coersion is the other way they put it, reproductive coersion. That goes to what you're just saying. Well, if you're actually saying that this guy can do this to this woman and then she can't terminate the pregnancy, correct and sense a loss of complete control of your own body.
00:12:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, you think about that, before, during, and after. A woman has no rights or at least no way to pursue justice if those rights were taken away from her beforehand or during. That to me is outrageous. Just saying it out loud makes me so angry.
00:12:54
Speaker 3: You have daughters. I have daughters.
00:12:56
Speaker 2: The idea that least in this state, they have options, have the ability to do something.
00:13:01
Speaker 3: If something happened to them.
00:13:02
Speaker 2: They can go and they can they can take a pill, they can do something, they can go to the doctor, they can find a way to make sure that that pregnancy doesn't continue. But so many women don't have those options.
00:13:16
Speaker 1: It shouldn't be on the woman. We're talking about what her options.
00:13:18
Speaker 3: Are always afterwards when it comes to that.
00:13:21
Speaker 1: But even in that, well she has options afterwards, Well she can go get a morning after pill. Well she can. No, that's not she should have the option in the moment robes. And I don't know if there is going to be. I don't feel like there's momentum necessarily. Now New York actually just joined what California, Washington. I'm missing one Washington state. I'm missing some other state. But they're only Maine, Maine.
00:13:44
Speaker 2: It was Maine, obviously, of course, because Maine is a whole part of this conversation.
00:13:49
Speaker 1: But those are the only ones. But they have added it to their civil.
00:13:52
Speaker 3: Code against civil not criminal.
00:13:54
Speaker 1: You can sue. Do not if this happens to you, do not go to the police station and say I have been violated.
00:14:00
Speaker 3: Let me ask you this as a man.
00:14:01
Speaker 2: Look, I understand that is it fair to say that most of these occurrences take place because a man has diminished pleasure when he's wearing a condom.
00:14:10
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't get into a man's mindset, but yes, it's a totally different experience.
00:14:15
Speaker 2: Yes, that would be the general That would be my idea. I have no idea the difference.
00:14:19
Speaker 1: That's fair to guess that that's the motivation overwhelmingly, yes.
00:14:22
Speaker 2: Okay, So the motivation is that if a man knew if he did that and took off his condom without first making sure the woman he was with was okay with it, if he knew that he could be prosecuted criminally. Do you not think that would serve as a significant deterrent to.
00:14:38
Speaker 1: Set man ropes? Make the announcement this is now a crime punishable for up to up to five years in prison.
00:14:44
Speaker 3: Yes, men are going to keep their condoms off.
00:14:46
Speaker 1: I think that will change behavior, and I would encourage you every woman to run out as soon as it happens rope. That would change, This would absolutely change things. Of Course, you're going to have some out there who still do it. Of course you're going to have some women out there who still wouldn't come. But robes. That's a major deterrent and saying what we always say, women are taken seriously, women aren't protected. This is another kind of an easy one if you will.
00:15:09
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:15:10
Speaker 2: And by not criminalizing it, by refusing to criminalize it, and that you are sending a message that is okay, boys will be boys. They need to have the sexual pleasure that they're owed.
00:15:20
Speaker 3: I mean it.
00:15:21
Speaker 2: Really, by not criminalizing it, that is a loud and deafening message you were sending to men and to women about what their worth is, what their value is, what their rights are.
00:15:31
Speaker 1: Well, you talk about men robes and the signal it does send. And the reason this did come up and the reason we were talking about it, Rhoades, is because of a man in Maine, in particular, a Senate Canada Democratic Senate candidate Robes. He was going through all kinds of hell. He had Scandalaptus Canada, Graham Platiner. People know that name. But in one of the accusations he was having in the midst of the campaign, a woman came forward in Robes the headlines Jesus crime in me. I never thought in my life I would a headline that a Senate candidate woman comes forward claims he took condoms off during sex without her knowledge. What and Robes I see that and go, holy hell, this is awful for politics, another scandal. But Robes, we stopped for a moment, go wow, this is an important story now, an important something for women to be aware of. And yes, I'm glad we plucked this out of the headline. This is so worth talking about and putting on people's radar.
00:16:29
Speaker 2: Absolutely, because it's to be honest, I don't think this is a conversation I have ever had in my life publicly with girlfriends, with anyone. I've just never had this conversation. And that's part of the problem. Let's have this conversation. Let's go on the record and say this is absolutely wrong. It is damaging, It is a violation, and yes, I believe it should be criminal. And it's interesting too because I think you looked it up. The prevalence of this we don't really know because just like rape, it's underreported. It's embarrassing. People don't want to talk about this type of thing, but they believe it's anywhere from eight percent.
00:17:08
Speaker 1: To forty three is the number there.
00:17:10
Speaker 2: Forty three percent of women have experienced this, and I think if women actually ask themselves and think back and say, wow, that happened to me. But I didn't even know to be upset about it. I didn't even notice say something about it. I didn't even think I had the right to complain about it. I really do think, especially when you go back decades and you start the way we have changed. Our mindset has evolved. Thankfully, it's going in the right direction. It's not where we should be. But I do feel like younger women now feel much more empowered to stand up for what their bodies are worth, what they want, and what they don't want to happen. Because look, I think the excruciating period of time to wait, did I just get HIV? Did I just get chlamytia? Some of these tests take weeks to find.
00:17:58
Speaker 3: Out the results.
00:17:59
Speaker 2: So now you are subjected to just this awful delay of waiting and wondering and spiraling. Did this person just put a deadly disease in me? Or really shitty, awful, horrible infection that I'm now going to have to deal with that I should not be subjected to.
00:18:17
Speaker 3: It's awful to think about it.
00:18:18
Speaker 1: And this just hit hit me. Now we're talking about women, what they have ability to do stealthing now being in the headlines or should be talked about, and women given all these tools, shouldn't we start at the top by telling men not to do this? Right?
00:18:37
Speaker 3: We all?
00:18:38
Speaker 2: We?
00:18:38
Speaker 1: Once again, you just said it it's on the woman, Like somebody somewhere we should all that's men, fine, but somewhere in the education of men and the teaching of young men, this should also be drilled into their heads. This is never, under any circumstance okay to do and okay to violate a woman, never okay to do this. I don't know, Rodes. We probably do this all the time, don't we. We're telling women what to do, given them tools. We need to pass a law to tell dudes to stop, to start behaving appropriately. That's too bad. So just want to make sure, Robes we balance that out with The point is and the onus is on the man to not behave in this way, to not behave in this way. And you mentioned the numbers, Robes, they also have numbers that show this happens to quite a few men as well.
00:19:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, in homosexual relationships you have men doing this to other men as well. So it's yes, that is a very good point. It's not just it happening to women. It happens to the male partners in homosexual relationships, and that makes a lot of sense to the same. I thought it was interesting I was reading some of the same studies. They said, there is the amount of women who are responsible for this zero percent, because no woman who wants a condom on is going to say, take the condom off of the man without him noticing, Like, obviously, that would never happen. This is all about men's behavior period. Just that seems silly to point out, but it was actually pointed out in one of the articles, and I thought, yeah, that was hilarious to even imagine a woman stealthily trying to remove a man's condom, just you know, without him knowing it because she wants to get pregnant. I guess would be the only thing I could think of. But there are no documented cases of such.
00:20:26
Speaker 1: Nor will there ever be.
00:20:28
Speaker 3: No, it's not a thing. It's not a thing.
00:20:32
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I actually giggled thinking about it as well.
00:20:35
Speaker 3: That's a hilarious thing to even have to reference.
00:20:37
Speaker 1: We needed that laugh. That's fine, It's.
00:20:40
Speaker 2: It is heavy when you think about this. This senate candidate. I would imagine at this point everyone's pretty familiar with his name, Graham Plattner.
00:20:48
Speaker 3: But the fact that he just.
00:20:50
Speaker 2: A few days ago was also accused of rape by an ex girlfriend. To have the following day another ex girlfriend accuse him of this, and to know that it's rape adjacent, it all makes sense. It's a pattern of behavior he is being accused of.
00:21:04
Speaker 1: And look, Graham Plattner and what happened. Look, if nothing else came out of that bad situation, it gave an opportunity to bring something to the headlines and remind people of something and what your options are, and maybe even push a little bit ro Is it possible that this being in the headlines, this story could push legislators, could push people to get motivated to bring this to their legislators, to say, hey, something needs to be done here. I just don't know where robe that me should probably look up a little more opposition, But I don't know where anyone is pushing and saying this is not sexual violence. And here's why.
00:21:41
Speaker 2: I would love to hear that argument, because I can't imagine that it would exist. And I do agree that a story like this that is surrounding a political candidate, and all the headlines are about whether or not he's going to step down, whether or not he should step down, whether or not he should even be considered as a Senate candidate. Yes, that obviously is the big headline. But the other huge headline is yes, we as women should be paying attention to this. We should be speaking up and speaking loudly and writing and encouraging our lawmakers to push this type of legislation through. I know it's difficult to get anything past these days, but who would be on the record saying they're against criminalizing criminal behavior against women?
00:22:26
Speaker 1: You have to be a man a woman.
00:22:29
Speaker 2: No, And I cannot imagine that not having an impact on female voters anyone up for reelection.
00:22:36
Speaker 3: This type of thing matters.
00:22:37
Speaker 2: And if we're loud enough and we come together, and men and women should both be on board because every man who has a daughter, who has a female relative that they love and respect, this affects everybody. And this is an important conversation that really hasn't been had. And I think also something else this headline could do empower women to stand up for themselves more. I think sometimes we feel like we don't want to rock the boat. We don't want to upset the guy we're into. We want him to like us. But if we don't want an unwanted pregnancy, we don't want to be on any sort of birth control, and we don't want an STD. I want to imagine all of those are things women want. I know the owners shouldn't be on us, but maybe it empowers women to use their voice more and to be more clear and to say we will not be having sex unless you put on a condom.
00:23:29
Speaker 1: Again, I'm sure a lot of women have said that to some guy who ended up doing well what Graham platnir and what somewhat forty percent of women maybe experience. The other part of that rope you said empowers women. Part of that is just it might empower them just to have a conversation and realize that there are other people in their friend group who might have the same issue. Robes. You just said, look at you, You're going to your whole life. Never had a conversation, Nope about this, Nope.
00:23:57
Speaker 2: But I can reflect back, and you can look at conversations you've had with folks and realize, Wow, we were dancing around things that actually were that needed to be discussed and that needed to be Boundaries needed to be drawn, conversations needed to be had, and a lot of folks, look, this is uncomfortable to talk about sex, especially before you have sex.
00:24:17
Speaker 3: It's kind of.
00:24:17
Speaker 2: A a mood killer sometimes, but you.
00:24:23
Speaker 3: Have to have it.
00:24:24
Speaker 1: It's a mood killer.
00:24:25
Speaker 2: Well, I can understand it's something you might want to avoid because it does take away from the moment.
00:24:31
Speaker 1: But you cad, there is no argument about that. It can be uncomfortable, especially with a new partner. Yep, but bro, this is a conversation that has to be had. And even though we said yes in the United States, this is not a crime, it is a crime in other places. And yes, folks have been convicted, and yes people have gotten pretty long prison sentences for stealthy.
00:25:07
Speaker 3: Welcome back everyone.
00:25:08
Speaker 2: We are talking about something that has not been criminalized in this country.
00:25:14
Speaker 3: It has an official acronym.
00:25:15
Speaker 2: It's called NCCR, which stands for non Consensual condom removal, colloquially known as stealthing. And while yes, it is not yet a crime here in this country, there are lawmakers working to at least give the opportunity to women to pursue or in men to pursue civil charges if this happens to them. But other countries are way ahead of us when it comes to criminalizing this, and among them mostly it's Europe.
00:25:47
Speaker 3: I guess New Zealand. Australia has several counties or provinces.
00:25:52
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how they describe areas that have also criminalized this act, but there have been some significant convictions around the world in recent years regarding stealthy but it's.
00:26:03
Speaker 1: All recent because this is still a very new thing. But in Europe they are getting on board, in particular Rose with criminalizing this. Germany, this all of these we're going to list here, we're seen as landmark cases robes in all of these places. But Germany had one in which a police officer was sentenced to eight months in prison and fine. Now eight months in prison doesn't sound like a lot that ended up getting reduced to six months, but this was a police officer in Germany. This was back in twenty eighteen, so that's I can tell you. At least in the past decade. Other places have been looking at this a little more seriously, which.
00:26:35
Speaker 3: Is kind of remarkable. Eight years ago.
00:26:38
Speaker 2: A police officer, which we know makes it even more difficult oftentimes, at least in this country for there to be a conviction, because there's a presumption of knowing right and wrong and.
00:26:46
Speaker 3: Upholding the law.
00:26:48
Speaker 2: But the fact that I mean eight months still seems like a long time for taking a condom off, Well.
00:26:52
Speaker 1: That ain't nothing compared to what a man in the UK got. This was the following year. Now there are some cases and this was one. Robes is another the one in New Zealand we'll discuss in a second, but this was one that happened involving a sex worker. So someone goes in a john, wants to have sex with someone. Obviously you have to have a condom on. Remove the condom during the sex with a sex worker. Now they robes. You start doing this in the US, it'll change behavior. Because this guy got twelve years twelve years in prison for this.
00:27:25
Speaker 2: A man will have a stash of condoms with him at all times and keep them on at all times if you know that if you get convicted, their consequences taking a condom off during sex without first confirming that with a woman twelve years in prison. Wow. And then in New Zealand in twenty twenty one, a man was sentenced to three years and nine months that.
00:27:49
Speaker 3: Also was with a sex worker.
00:27:51
Speaker 2: And then in twenty twenty three in the Netherlands a man was convicted. He did get a suspended sentence, But look, it's something to even have that conviction, to have a rap sheet, to have a criminal conviction on your record as a sex crime.
00:28:05
Speaker 3: For this act.
00:28:07
Speaker 2: And look, I know we're a lot of times in this country slow to follow suit on a lot of things. And I just this story out of Maine and this ex girlfriend.
00:28:19
Speaker 3: It actually happened in DC, So if it.
00:28:21
Speaker 2: Had happened in Maine, she could possibly pursue civil charges at least in that stage she would have a recourse in DC. That isn't likely, but certainly this is changing the course of an election potentially, and it could have, I would hope, an impact on potentially legislation going forward in this country.
00:28:44
Speaker 1: There is a man sitting in who got twelve years in prison in the UK for doing what a senate candidate here in the US was accused of doing six times.
00:28:56
Speaker 3: At least. She claims there is not.
00:28:58
Speaker 1: A jurisdiction in the United States. He could have committed that and it would have been a crime nowhere could he have done that, and it would have been a crime that she could have gone to police about. Meanwhile, there's a guy in the UK that got twelve years, there's a guy in New Zealand the gut almost four years. Right, it's just folks view it differently. I don't know Robes. I just haven't seen and I would like to hear the argument. I'm not dismissing someone, but to say, hey, this is why this is a step too far in criminalizing this. I just I haven't heard an argument that I embrace yet, and I'm open to it. I just haven't heard why this should not be criminalized doing something like this to someone Robes.
00:29:43
Speaker 2: It it's deceptive and it has and it's a betrayal, and it's a breach in understanding and it has real life consequences. So how that isn't a crime, I don't know. But there is a federal bill sitting stuck in committee, per usual with this country and the way our laws are so slowly made.
00:30:07
Speaker 1: But Robes same thing. It's not going to criminalize, right, It's been sitting there. It was introduced by a California Republican, Norma Toure excuse me, Democrat in California. But it's been sitting there, stuck in committee. But yes, the Stealth Act of twenty twenty five is just sitting there. But again, Ropes, it would not criminalize. It would give women the option to go after someone in civil court. So I guess that's a step, but we haven't even taken it. That's a step, but we haven't even gone. And don't know what. It's just languishing and just sitting there like a lot of stuff doesn't gone.
00:30:41
Speaker 2: So nowhere in any state, no is there anyone, no trying to make this a criminal act.
00:30:51
Speaker 1: New York just passed THEIRS and it was civil. The one sitting in Congress civil, the other three that already been passed civil, So there is This is not a ground swell right now, Robes. But who knows if this will change things. But it's going to take more than us. It's going to take more than you. It's going to take a whole bunch of women right making noise. And we shall see. This was a tough one, Robes, Stealthy just something else needs to be aware.
00:31:20
Speaker 3: Look, and I do think it's a start.
00:31:22
Speaker 2: We have to start somewhere and so maybe perhaps news of this, and specifically as it pertains to Grand Platner, maybe this is the launch pad that this effort needed, and certainly to bring it to my attention, to bring it to other women's attention. We may have been aware that this was happening, but I don't think maybe we've considered it the way and looked at it through the lens in which it should be viewed.
00:31:45
Speaker 3: As a crime.
00:31:46
Speaker 2: And I think when we start looking at it like that and thinking about it in that way, even if it's not on the books, we can react and respond differently as women and hopefully men also will take note and they will look at the story, they will hear the story, they will see what's happening around the world, and look, maybe we can start to make changes here in this country where there are actual consequences for this criminal behavior.
00:32:10
Speaker 1: All right, well, folks, I always appreciate you coming along well us. As always for my dear Amy Robot, I'm TJ. Holmes. We'll talk to you all soon.