Oct. 15, 2026
Press Secretary Katie Zacharia Reportedly Did NOT Pass Bar Exam; Says It’s All “One Big Misunderstanding”
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RSS Feed The Wall Street Journal is reporting that White House Press Secretary Katie Zacharia took the California bar exam after graduating from Pepperdine Law School, but did not pass. This, after the New York Times was able to briefly talk to Zacharia on the phone where she claimed she couldn’t hear when a reporter asked her in what state she passed the bar. Instead, she said she assumed she was asked where she went after graduating law school…. And that’s why she replied “When I was in China?” Zacharia also went on to say the president of her law school told her she could call herself a “lawyer” but she could not refer to herself as an “attorney.”
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00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey there folks, it is Thursday, October 15th, and her current job is White House Press Secretary, but folks can't stop debating about what was Katie Zachariah's former job. Is she an attorney or not? And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Wear Robes. Wednesday is officially the third day on the job for the new White House Press Secretary, in which she's supposed to be telling the President's story. She's struggling to tell her own story.
00:00:30
Speaker 2: Right. She actually is, well, she took at least one interview with the New York Times to try and explain what exactly her background truly is and what she really meant to say and what she really thought the question she was being asked was.
00:00:44
Speaker 1: Cleared everything up.
00:00:45
Speaker 2: But yeah, she's added more confusion. I think she's playing cute in a way. She's just not being straight. She's not being straight and just putting this to bed. She could put this to bed.
00:00:55
Speaker 1: By simply saying, I didn't pass the bar, guys, and that's it.
00:00:58
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:00:59
Speaker 1: Why can't she do that?
00:01:00
Speaker 2: Why can't you say I didn't pass the bar, I'm not an attorney, but I am considered a lawyer given my law degree?
00:01:08
Speaker 1: Just say it and let people fight it out. Just be straight and move on. But she's not doing that. So the debate continues. Part of that debate, Robes, includes folks now going through and trying to define what a lawyer is versus what an attorney is. We'll get into that. But, Robes, this has been a mess. It continues. The Wall Street Journal and New York Times do have new reporting as of this quarter. morning having to do with whether or not she ever took a bar exam if she passed said exam as well robes and yes how she explained that really awkward moment when she was leaving the white house on tuesday with the president how do you and again we have it right the question was asked at least twice twice where did you the question was in what state they were specific right.
00:01:52
Speaker 2: In what state did you pass the bar? And then she asked again, they said, in what state did you pass the bar? Her answer both times, when I moved to China.
00:02:02
Speaker 1: Okay, so folks, we have an explanation for why that awkward moment might have been such an awkward moment. I don't know, Rose. We talked about this a little earlier, so I do know how you feel about it.
00:02:14
Speaker 2: Nobody can see me. Nobody can see me. But if you can hear my eyes rolling, I'll try to do it again for you.
00:02:21
Speaker 1: OK. And I'm smiling. I don't know why I'm seeing this. Maybe because it's such a silly like she was on the phone with a guy from The New York Times. All she had to do was clear this.
00:02:30
Speaker 2: Tell the truth.
00:02:31
Speaker 1: Or just clear this up. Whatever the truth may be. Facts are different from truth. She has a different truth than somebody else has been listening to her for the past several years. Get on TV and every time represent herself as a lawyer.
00:02:42
Speaker 2: Right.
00:02:42
Speaker 1: There are different truths here. The facts are that she was asked a question and she answered it the way she did. The president, of course, when he made his announcement, did call her an attorney. in his true social post when he first announced she was getting the gig. So, Robes, she explained in a, I guess it was a short, it seemed like it was a very short phone call with the New York Times.
00:03:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the New York Times said she was on the tarmac in Arizona, and I guess they just were able to catch her. And at some point, we knew she was going to have to answer a few questions.
00:03:11
Speaker 1: Oh, and this ain't over.
00:03:12
Speaker 2: But this did not answer any questions. So when they asked her, you know, why did you respond when I moved to China? She said, I assumed... The question was, where were you after law school? That's all I could hear over the sound of Marine One and wanting to respect protocol. The distance behind the president kept me from moving closer to hear the question. It's kind of funny because I remember before even someone shouted out a question to her, it was bizarre how far back she was and yet in the picture. And I thought she does not want to be anywhere near that press gaggle. She just wants to be far away.
00:03:55
Speaker 1: Now, we have, and you'll remember, we sell this countless times with Carolyn Leavitt. They do hang back, and they're hovering there when the president's doing stuff with the press. She's supposed to be nearby, but she's not supposed to be in his shot. She's not supposed to take away from his shot. It's that idea. That part I do get, how she applied it here. Is amazing. I assumed the question.
00:04:18
Speaker 2: She didn't say I misheard the question or I thought the question. When she used assumed, I thought that was a bizarre word choice. And also, it doesn't explain how she began her answer. If she believed they asked her, where were you after law school, you would just say China. You wouldn't say when I moved to China. Oh, yeah. Her answer was in direct response to in what state did you take the bar? What state did you take the bar in? When I moved to China, she was just trying to deflect as if that was going to satisfy anyone's curiosity.
00:04:52
Speaker 1: Why was she not ready for this? I didn't think anybody was going to look into the background. They will just keep calling her a lawyer. I'm surprised. She should have been ready for this.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: She should have been ready for that press conference, and she was not.
00:05:14
Speaker 1: Okay, fine. But, Rose, this is a mess. I'm trying. I'm not that familiar with her. She'd been on TV some. You see her every once in a while doing a hit on Fox News. But, Rose, I'm not that familiar. But right now, I just... It's tough. This can't feelâ yes, maybe it is of her own making, but my goodness, what a mess.
00:05:33
Speaker 2: It's a reminder that it usuallyâ the truth comes out. It doesn't serve anyone long-term good, and especially if you plan on being in any sort of public role, to bolster your resume or make yourself soundâ better than you actually are it almost always comes out especially if you think you're going to get into politics or any sort of yes public role where you your resume your credentials are going to be scrutinized.
00:06:06
Speaker 1: You know we could do a separate episode on there's a list of people who have gotten in trouble doing this.
00:06:11
Speaker 2: Stuff and it wouldn't have mattered in this case it just not said if if If the president hadn't lauded her to all of us as an attorney, there would have been no issue. No one would have cared whether or not she was one. It wouldn't have made a damn difference in how she did her job or how she was regarded in her job.
00:06:32
Speaker 1: But to your point you keep making, this goes to the heart of her job. We have to believe what this lady is saying because she is the spokesperson for the United States of America, essentially.
00:06:43
Speaker 2: Or at least can we start on that foot where we want to believe or we hope she's telling us the truth. When she shows us from the moment she takes her position that she can't be and isn't telling the truth, that is tough.
00:06:56
Speaker 1: Okay, so yes, the first briefing was Tuesday. She, I don't know, she fumbled through the prepared remarks for eight minutes. That's a good way to put it. She only called on three reporters from friendly outlets, so she didn't really get pushed or challenged. But Robes, I do think, what is going to, can you imagine if she had a press conference Briefing to do? When is her next one? Rose, they're not going to, first question going to be about Iran?
00:07:19
Speaker 2: No.
00:07:20
Speaker 1: Wait until she called the first person from a mainstream outlet. So I got two questions here, Katie. That's what they're going to say. Did you take and pass the bar?
00:07:31
Speaker 2: No.
00:07:31
Speaker 1: Have you ever been licensed anywhere on planet Earth as a practicing attorney? Next reporter call on. Why did you represent yourself as a lawyer so often? Did you know the president was going to call you an attorney in his announcement? Rose, they're going to get at this.
00:07:50
Speaker 2: She's got to face this. And, you know, take some time maybe to get your story straight.
00:07:56
Speaker 1: She's had enough time now.
00:07:57
Speaker 2: She's had plenty of time. And this interview she did, or at least the comments she gave to The New York Times, did not go well. It didn't make this go away. In fact, I think it made it worse.
00:08:08
Speaker 1: And this was her second round, I guess, of trying to explain things because she was asked by a separate reporter or the News Nation reporter. She said it this way. I practice international transaction law with all the appropriate credentials.
00:08:23
Speaker 2: That sounds lawyered.
00:08:24
Speaker 1: That piece in the back there, with all the appropriate credentials required.
00:08:29
Speaker 2: Look, and you've got people speaking out from this law firm where she worked in China saying that she was basically a paid intern and for her to represent herself in any other way is totally disingenuous.
00:08:41
Speaker 1: And you can't legally do it as a foreigner in China.
00:08:43
Speaker 2: No, it's completely illegal for a foreigner to practice Chinese law. And look, she was a paid intern. That's what they said. But she made it sound like She had some big, powerful role in this Chinese company.
00:08:57
Speaker 1: Is that the end of the world? People do that. She's misrepresenting but not necessarily lying. I don't know. Where do you go?
00:09:04
Speaker 2: Just given her job, it's tough. It's like when Brian Williams got caught embellishing what he saw during Hurricane Katrina. He could no longer serve as nightly news anchor and the head of NBC News because what his whole job was is to tell the truth and to be accurate. and to not embellish. So it's a similar situation where we're supposed to believe what she's telling us, and if she's not even telling us the truth about herself or deliberately misrepresenting things about herself to make herself look better, how then can you begin any sort of relationship that's genuine.
00:09:42
Speaker 1: With the press? I have from the beginning, I don't want to say more so than you, maybe we're equal, but I think you don't have as much patience for her as I do right now. But the thing is, we were both at the beginning fully open and rooting for her and hoping she does just well in her job. just we know how difficult that gig is but Rose she's losing me every step now to where I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt and every answer is another BS one that's not straight so now it's not even clear it's hard to be on her side When she keeps giving these answers.
00:10:20
Speaker 2: Look, I too, I agree with you. I am always truly, I'm rooting for a woman. You get up there. Be gorgeous, be smart, be strong, handle your shit, and prove everybody wrong. I love that. And I would have fully been behind her. It's just I don't thinkâ and I'm not saying she's not smart. I justâ she wasn't prepared. And that's actually just a choice.
00:10:43
Speaker 1: Okay, that performance wasâ that's completely legit.
00:10:46
Speaker 2: So there's that part of it, which was frustrating to me. Like, girl, you knewâ what you were going to be doing. Like, why didn't you just spend the last four days doing nothing but preparing for those 14 minutes? That's annoying to me. Um, as a woman, I guess just, you get this amazing opportunity and yes, you look the way you look, but like prove them all wrong, prove them all wrong. And I just was frustrated that she didn't, she fell right into that stereotype of what people were expecting.
00:11:13
Speaker 1: You know, you're right on that, but you made me think of something else. Would this story be covered differently, viewed differently, if this was the man in the exact same circumstances, who'd been out there for years calling it... The exact same thing is happening. Would we be... How would we cover this? Any differently? Any stronger? The tone be different? I say we as the media.
00:11:34
Speaker 2: I think... I think we'd go after, I say go after, but be curious and investigate and certainly call into question a man in the same situation. We just might be viewing it through a slightly different lens.
00:11:47
Speaker 1: It's interesting to hear you say, like, come on, girl. Like, to hear you say it that way. Come on, girl. Like, as a woman right now.
00:11:53
Speaker 2: Represent.
00:11:53
Speaker 1: Just rooting for you.
00:11:55
Speaker 2: And I know you're smart. And I know you can manage a family of four kids. That's tough. But, like. Do the work you needed to do before you got up in front of those reporters and acted like you could just, I don't know. But she was not prepared. She couldn't even read her prepared remarks.
00:12:12
Speaker 1: That's one thing. It was one thing if you didn't answer questions well. This is a prepared thing. Just stand in the mirror and read it for an hour.
00:12:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, or 10, whatever it takes. I remember before I started doing what we do now every day, when I was young, I would sit there and I would... We didn't have video recorders, but I would stand in front of the mirror. I would record my voice. I would play it back. I would play it back. I would play it back. I would watch my tapes when I was a new reporter. Every single day. See what I did wrong. She needed to take videos of herself and watch herself and say, again, again, again.
00:12:47
Speaker 1: Bro, this was the most important moment of her professional life. Day one. And it was bad.
00:12:53
Speaker 2: And the thing is, it's like you fall into the stereotype of pretty girl thinks that everybody will just love her because she's gorgeous and she doesn't really have to try that hard. And I know that that's not what happens, but that's the stereotype that she falls under. And it just feels like she walked right into that.
00:13:09
Speaker 1: I did not, babe. You and I have been discussing her for days. This is the first time we've discussed and I've put it into that type of context. Yeah, it's annoying. So she has, over the years, Robes, they have mashups of it online you can find. Just boom, boom, all these clips of her. Well, I'm a lawyer and da-da-da-da. Well, I'm a lawyer, as people say to her, the interviewer. Help me here. You're the attorney, so help me da-da-da. And just we keep going and going and going. Robes, that's one thing to say that, but she also... has flat out let the words come out of her mouth that she practiced law. Repeatedly, she said that.
00:13:41
Speaker 2: I practiced law in Beijing. I practiced corporate law in China.
00:13:46
Speaker 1: She has said those things directly.
00:13:47
Speaker 2: She has said those things, which are not true.
00:13:50
Speaker 1: Which cannot actually legally be true. The other thing, Robes, is the resume. There are a couple things on her resume. I guess one in particular where she says she worked in California. That's a pretty big no-no. And this is the one that folks are possibly going after for committing a crime.
00:14:04
Speaker 2: Yes. General counsel to fix California from 2024 to 2025. She lists herself as general counsel. And yes, that is considered a crime in California if a prosecutor chose to go forward with it.
00:14:22
Speaker 1: Rose, that one is on paper and blatant. You cannot serve as general counsel in California to a company if you do not have a license to practice law. Rose, that is a big... Okay, is she going to be in trouble? Is she going to... I mean, what's going to come of this? The president, no talk about her. Well, what was it they were saying immediately after members of the administration that they were putting their bets on how long she would last?
00:14:46
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There are a lot of folks behind... closed doors who are saying, yes, we don't think she's going to last long. Also on her LinkedIn, she called herself an associate on international practice team for law firm in China. That's the one where they said she was basically a paid intern.
00:15:05
Speaker 1: So associate, what do we call them in the U? You're a partner or you're an associate, right?
00:15:11
Speaker 2: Right.
00:15:12
Speaker 1: That's a suggestion.
00:15:13
Speaker 2: That she's a lawyer, that she was practicing law in China.
00:15:16
Speaker 1: Yes. No, she did graduate from law school. Have seen the pictures. Pepperdine Law, that was in 2011. New reporting also this morning rose from the Wall Street Journal. I guess it's not a surprise, but we got, right, nobody's saying she passed the bar in any state, but we didn't know necessarily that she took the bar either until the Wall Street Journal comes out with some reporting this morning.
00:15:39
Speaker 2: Yes, the Wall Street Journal said they were able to confirm that she, Katie, did take the California bar, but that she failed the bar exam. So one instance of her trying to take the bar, that's all they came up with, correct? And that she failed it.
00:15:54
Speaker 1: That's a big deal to an attorney. People are so embarrassed. You don't want anybody to know you failed the bar exam.
00:16:03
Speaker 2: After going through three years of law school at Pepperdine.
00:16:06
Speaker 1: It's a personal thing. I can see why she'd never want to say that or tell somebody that or whatever. But I know that stings a little bit to have that out there. And so it stings to be asked, where did you pass the bar? I didn't. What's the next thing? Well, I never took one. Is she going to say that? So why'd you go to law school?
00:16:26
Speaker 2: It makes no sense. And then represent yourself as a lawyer to everyone. That makes no sense. I thought this was so interesting to... From the New York Times article.
00:16:34
Speaker 1: Right.
00:16:35
Speaker 2: Speaking of the bar, they said during the brief phone call Wednesday, the Times did not get a chance to press her again about whether she had ever passed a bar exam. But before she had to go, she did explain that when she first began appearing on cable news, she consulted with Pepperdine's president as to how she should identify herself. She said she was warned... not to use the words attorney or Esquire, but that lawyer was okay.
00:17:03
Speaker 1: Is that really the case, or is that just what the Pepperdine president thinks? Stay here with us, folks. We will tell you what the truth really is behind the terms lawyer versus attorney, and we'll remind you the group that right now wants her to be investigated for a possible crime in California.
00:17:34
Speaker 2: Welcome back, everyone, to Amy and TJ. Katie Zachariah still has a lot of explaining to do. She has not clarified a lot of questions that so many of us have. Like, oh, I don't know. Did you ever take the bar? Did you pass the bar? Why have you been representing yourself as general counsel?
00:17:58
Speaker 1: Just answer those three questions. We can all move on. Get back to the president's agenda.
00:18:02
Speaker 2: So, yes, if she will, so far she has not gotten specific about any of that. But the Campaign for Accountability, it's a left watchdog group. And they are asking, officially, the California Bar to investigate Ms. Zakaria's comments, or at least her resume.
00:18:20
Speaker 1: It's Katie Zakaria.
00:18:21
Speaker 2: God, it's Zakaria. I was doing so well, and then I screwed it up again.
00:18:25
Speaker 1: It's Fareed Zakaria, Ms.
00:18:27
Speaker 2: Zakaria. Yes, I think it is. Oh, my God, now that you just said that, it's going to be even worse.
00:18:31
Speaker 1: You know you're going to call him Fareed Zakaria now.
00:18:34
Speaker 2: Stop it, stop it, Zakaria. Yes, so they say that if the reporting is accurate, Ms. Zakaria has repeatedly held herself out to the public as entitled to practice law without a license to do so, conduct California law treats as a crime.
00:18:51
Speaker 1: How far is that going to go? Who knows? Probably not much is going to come of it. It's not like she's been in a court representing herself. That's a little different. It's on TV. Don't expect that much to come of that. But still, Rome, there is a reason. If you get in trouble, I can't just go in there and say, yes, Your Honor, I am here representing on behalf of Amy Robach. No, I don't have a license. You are not, it's like a medical license. You do not have the authority to be in here to do anything. You're not licensed to do this. You just can't.
00:19:22
Speaker 2: And when you say you're a lawyer, I know there's this lawyer versus attorney thing, but you assume, when I hear someone's a lawyer, I assume they've passed the bar and they're licensed to practice law and to give me legal advice. That's the whole point of being a lawyer.
00:19:37
Speaker 1: You don't look for an attorney instead of a lawyer?
00:19:39
Speaker 2: No.
00:19:40
Speaker 1: Okay, you're shaking your head and most of us are. These words, obviously, robes, are used interchangeably and to represent the same thing. A person in the United States who was given legal advice, who can perform in a court of law, Robes, we all understand what this means. The only place there's a distinction, technically, is academia. When they do, sometimes we'll say a lawyer is someone who went to law school and an attorney is then somebody who passed the bar. You could try to make that distinction, Rose, but folks in the profession, no, they're used interchangeably, including the American Bar Association. All over their website and all their references, yes, a lawyer is somebody licensed to practice law. So they might, Rose, try to thread some needle about a technicality. They might. And say this is all just semantics you all have got caught up on. But she's had three days to say that. What are we waiting on?
00:20:39
Speaker 2: Yes. And look, she can say that all she wants, but common sense is going to prevail. And people are going to recognize that what she's been doing for many, many years has been disingenuous. And that's true.
00:20:52
Speaker 1: It's been misleading. It's okay. Nobody's calling her a liar. We don't have to go that far. It's okay. She got on TV. It sounds better. It sounds good. I practice international law in China. That's impressive to say out loud.
00:21:04
Speaker 2: It certainly is. But I can, I mean, I feel like I would go in the other direction because the worst thing would be for someone to assume I had achieved or accomplished something that I didn't. To me, that would just be so awful. So if I were going on as a legal analyst and just want to point out, I am not a practicing lawyer.
00:21:21
Speaker 1: I did go to law school.
00:21:23
Speaker 2: And then that would be fine. I would appreciate if someone went to Pepperdine Law School. That's impressive as hell. So I would just say, and to be clear, but I did study and I did get a law degree and here's what I know. And that's how you preface it. You don't go in the other direction of So, yes, bottom line, Katie Zachariah is not licensed to practice law and she is not licensed to give legal advice. And yet she's been not giving legal advice but legal commentary. And I think that's misrepresentative if you are even watching her as a viewer and assuming you're getting information coming from someone who is licensed to practice law.
00:21:59
Speaker 1: You know what, Robes, I wouldn'tâ if she would have introduced herself like that in all those segmentsâ Now, just to be clear, I do have, I'm a law school grad, but I haven't been practicing. I don't practice. Then give your advice. I'll still listen to her. I'm not that turned off by the idea of that.
00:22:16
Speaker 2: You spent three years in law school. That's three years more than any of us did. So amazing.
00:22:20
Speaker 1: But then here's the thing with that. When did she finish?
00:22:22
Speaker 2: 2011?
00:22:22
Speaker 1: It's been a while. 2011 was it? Yeah. Oh, she hasn't been practicing. You're kind of out of practice.
00:22:29
Speaker 2: Right. And you weren't getting, you weren't having to pass boards again. You weren't having to make sure you stay fresh up on the law and how it's being applied and any new court rulings that may change what people believe or think about how things should go. Yes, these are important. Yes, you make a good point. It's been 15 years since she was even in law school.
00:22:50
Speaker 1: Damn, I don't want a doctor who just, who hasn't. been practicing in 15 years.
00:22:56
Speaker 2: Well, I don't want a doctor who didn't pass the board.
00:23:00
Speaker 1: You would never.
00:23:01
Speaker 2: I need a board certified doctor always.
00:23:04
Speaker 1: That sounds crazy, but it's the same. Who are you going to go to if you have the option? Someone who passed the bar in New York or someone who went to NYU law school, but has been working as a barista for the past four years.
00:23:14
Speaker 2: Right.
00:23:16
Speaker 1: But I'm a lawyer. Would you like soy milk or would you like almond milk? All right. All right, Katie Zachariah. We are still, still rooting for her to do well in this job and to clear all of this up and move on. We shall see if today is the day. And with that, folks, we appreciate you spending time with us. I'm TJ. That's Robes. Talk soon.
Speaker 1: Hey there folks, it is Thursday, October 15th, and her current job is White House Press Secretary, but folks can't stop debating about what was Katie Zachariah's former job. Is she an attorney or not? And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Wear Robes. Wednesday is officially the third day on the job for the new White House Press Secretary, in which she's supposed to be telling the President's story. She's struggling to tell her own story.
00:00:30
Speaker 2: Right. She actually is, well, she took at least one interview with the New York Times to try and explain what exactly her background truly is and what she really meant to say and what she really thought the question she was being asked was.
00:00:44
Speaker 1: Cleared everything up.
00:00:45
Speaker 2: But yeah, she's added more confusion. I think she's playing cute in a way. She's just not being straight. She's not being straight and just putting this to bed. She could put this to bed.
00:00:55
Speaker 1: By simply saying, I didn't pass the bar, guys, and that's it.
00:00:58
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:00:59
Speaker 1: Why can't she do that?
00:01:00
Speaker 2: Why can't you say I didn't pass the bar, I'm not an attorney, but I am considered a lawyer given my law degree?
00:01:08
Speaker 1: Just say it and let people fight it out. Just be straight and move on. But she's not doing that. So the debate continues. Part of that debate, Robes, includes folks now going through and trying to define what a lawyer is versus what an attorney is. We'll get into that. But, Robes, this has been a mess. It continues. The Wall Street Journal and New York Times do have new reporting as of this quarter. morning having to do with whether or not she ever took a bar exam if she passed said exam as well robes and yes how she explained that really awkward moment when she was leaving the white house on tuesday with the president how do you and again we have it right the question was asked at least twice twice where did you the question was in what state they were specific right.
00:01:52
Speaker 2: In what state did you pass the bar? And then she asked again, they said, in what state did you pass the bar? Her answer both times, when I moved to China.
00:02:02
Speaker 1: Okay, so folks, we have an explanation for why that awkward moment might have been such an awkward moment. I don't know, Rose. We talked about this a little earlier, so I do know how you feel about it.
00:02:14
Speaker 2: Nobody can see me. Nobody can see me. But if you can hear my eyes rolling, I'll try to do it again for you.
00:02:21
Speaker 1: OK. And I'm smiling. I don't know why I'm seeing this. Maybe because it's such a silly like she was on the phone with a guy from The New York Times. All she had to do was clear this.
00:02:30
Speaker 2: Tell the truth.
00:02:31
Speaker 1: Or just clear this up. Whatever the truth may be. Facts are different from truth. She has a different truth than somebody else has been listening to her for the past several years. Get on TV and every time represent herself as a lawyer.
00:02:42
Speaker 2: Right.
00:02:42
Speaker 1: There are different truths here. The facts are that she was asked a question and she answered it the way she did. The president, of course, when he made his announcement, did call her an attorney. in his true social post when he first announced she was getting the gig. So, Robes, she explained in a, I guess it was a short, it seemed like it was a very short phone call with the New York Times.
00:03:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the New York Times said she was on the tarmac in Arizona, and I guess they just were able to catch her. And at some point, we knew she was going to have to answer a few questions.
00:03:11
Speaker 1: Oh, and this ain't over.
00:03:12
Speaker 2: But this did not answer any questions. So when they asked her, you know, why did you respond when I moved to China? She said, I assumed... The question was, where were you after law school? That's all I could hear over the sound of Marine One and wanting to respect protocol. The distance behind the president kept me from moving closer to hear the question. It's kind of funny because I remember before even someone shouted out a question to her, it was bizarre how far back she was and yet in the picture. And I thought she does not want to be anywhere near that press gaggle. She just wants to be far away.
00:03:55
Speaker 1: Now, we have, and you'll remember, we sell this countless times with Carolyn Leavitt. They do hang back, and they're hovering there when the president's doing stuff with the press. She's supposed to be nearby, but she's not supposed to be in his shot. She's not supposed to take away from his shot. It's that idea. That part I do get, how she applied it here. Is amazing. I assumed the question.
00:04:18
Speaker 2: She didn't say I misheard the question or I thought the question. When she used assumed, I thought that was a bizarre word choice. And also, it doesn't explain how she began her answer. If she believed they asked her, where were you after law school, you would just say China. You wouldn't say when I moved to China. Oh, yeah. Her answer was in direct response to in what state did you take the bar? What state did you take the bar in? When I moved to China, she was just trying to deflect as if that was going to satisfy anyone's curiosity.
00:04:52
Speaker 1: Why was she not ready for this? I didn't think anybody was going to look into the background. They will just keep calling her a lawyer. I'm surprised. She should have been ready for this.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: She should have been ready for that press conference, and she was not.
00:05:14
Speaker 1: Okay, fine. But, Rose, this is a mess. I'm trying. I'm not that familiar with her. She'd been on TV some. You see her every once in a while doing a hit on Fox News. But, Rose, I'm not that familiar. But right now, I just... It's tough. This can't feelâ yes, maybe it is of her own making, but my goodness, what a mess.
00:05:33
Speaker 2: It's a reminder that it usuallyâ the truth comes out. It doesn't serve anyone long-term good, and especially if you plan on being in any sort of public role, to bolster your resume or make yourself soundâ better than you actually are it almost always comes out especially if you think you're going to get into politics or any sort of yes public role where you your resume your credentials are going to be scrutinized.
00:06:06
Speaker 1: You know we could do a separate episode on there's a list of people who have gotten in trouble doing this.
00:06:11
Speaker 2: Stuff and it wouldn't have mattered in this case it just not said if if If the president hadn't lauded her to all of us as an attorney, there would have been no issue. No one would have cared whether or not she was one. It wouldn't have made a damn difference in how she did her job or how she was regarded in her job.
00:06:32
Speaker 1: But to your point you keep making, this goes to the heart of her job. We have to believe what this lady is saying because she is the spokesperson for the United States of America, essentially.
00:06:43
Speaker 2: Or at least can we start on that foot where we want to believe or we hope she's telling us the truth. When she shows us from the moment she takes her position that she can't be and isn't telling the truth, that is tough.
00:06:56
Speaker 1: Okay, so yes, the first briefing was Tuesday. She, I don't know, she fumbled through the prepared remarks for eight minutes. That's a good way to put it. She only called on three reporters from friendly outlets, so she didn't really get pushed or challenged. But Robes, I do think, what is going to, can you imagine if she had a press conference Briefing to do? When is her next one? Rose, they're not going to, first question going to be about Iran?
00:07:19
Speaker 2: No.
00:07:20
Speaker 1: Wait until she called the first person from a mainstream outlet. So I got two questions here, Katie. That's what they're going to say. Did you take and pass the bar?
00:07:31
Speaker 2: No.
00:07:31
Speaker 1: Have you ever been licensed anywhere on planet Earth as a practicing attorney? Next reporter call on. Why did you represent yourself as a lawyer so often? Did you know the president was going to call you an attorney in his announcement? Rose, they're going to get at this.
00:07:50
Speaker 2: She's got to face this. And, you know, take some time maybe to get your story straight.
00:07:56
Speaker 1: She's had enough time now.
00:07:57
Speaker 2: She's had plenty of time. And this interview she did, or at least the comments she gave to The New York Times, did not go well. It didn't make this go away. In fact, I think it made it worse.
00:08:08
Speaker 1: And this was her second round, I guess, of trying to explain things because she was asked by a separate reporter or the News Nation reporter. She said it this way. I practice international transaction law with all the appropriate credentials.
00:08:23
Speaker 2: That sounds lawyered.
00:08:24
Speaker 1: That piece in the back there, with all the appropriate credentials required.
00:08:29
Speaker 2: Look, and you've got people speaking out from this law firm where she worked in China saying that she was basically a paid intern and for her to represent herself in any other way is totally disingenuous.
00:08:41
Speaker 1: And you can't legally do it as a foreigner in China.
00:08:43
Speaker 2: No, it's completely illegal for a foreigner to practice Chinese law. And look, she was a paid intern. That's what they said. But she made it sound like She had some big, powerful role in this Chinese company.
00:08:57
Speaker 1: Is that the end of the world? People do that. She's misrepresenting but not necessarily lying. I don't know. Where do you go?
00:09:04
Speaker 2: Just given her job, it's tough. It's like when Brian Williams got caught embellishing what he saw during Hurricane Katrina. He could no longer serve as nightly news anchor and the head of NBC News because what his whole job was is to tell the truth and to be accurate. and to not embellish. So it's a similar situation where we're supposed to believe what she's telling us, and if she's not even telling us the truth about herself or deliberately misrepresenting things about herself to make herself look better, how then can you begin any sort of relationship that's genuine.
00:09:42
Speaker 1: With the press? I have from the beginning, I don't want to say more so than you, maybe we're equal, but I think you don't have as much patience for her as I do right now. But the thing is, we were both at the beginning fully open and rooting for her and hoping she does just well in her job. just we know how difficult that gig is but Rose she's losing me every step now to where I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt and every answer is another BS one that's not straight so now it's not even clear it's hard to be on her side When she keeps giving these answers.
00:10:20
Speaker 2: Look, I too, I agree with you. I am always truly, I'm rooting for a woman. You get up there. Be gorgeous, be smart, be strong, handle your shit, and prove everybody wrong. I love that. And I would have fully been behind her. It's just I don't thinkâ and I'm not saying she's not smart. I justâ she wasn't prepared. And that's actually just a choice.
00:10:43
Speaker 1: Okay, that performance wasâ that's completely legit.
00:10:46
Speaker 2: So there's that part of it, which was frustrating to me. Like, girl, you knewâ what you were going to be doing. Like, why didn't you just spend the last four days doing nothing but preparing for those 14 minutes? That's annoying to me. Um, as a woman, I guess just, you get this amazing opportunity and yes, you look the way you look, but like prove them all wrong, prove them all wrong. And I just was frustrated that she didn't, she fell right into that stereotype of what people were expecting.
00:11:13
Speaker 1: You know, you're right on that, but you made me think of something else. Would this story be covered differently, viewed differently, if this was the man in the exact same circumstances, who'd been out there for years calling it... The exact same thing is happening. Would we be... How would we cover this? Any differently? Any stronger? The tone be different? I say we as the media.
00:11:34
Speaker 2: I think... I think we'd go after, I say go after, but be curious and investigate and certainly call into question a man in the same situation. We just might be viewing it through a slightly different lens.
00:11:47
Speaker 1: It's interesting to hear you say, like, come on, girl. Like, to hear you say it that way. Come on, girl. Like, as a woman right now.
00:11:53
Speaker 2: Represent.
00:11:53
Speaker 1: Just rooting for you.
00:11:55
Speaker 2: And I know you're smart. And I know you can manage a family of four kids. That's tough. But, like. Do the work you needed to do before you got up in front of those reporters and acted like you could just, I don't know. But she was not prepared. She couldn't even read her prepared remarks.
00:12:12
Speaker 1: That's one thing. It was one thing if you didn't answer questions well. This is a prepared thing. Just stand in the mirror and read it for an hour.
00:12:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, or 10, whatever it takes. I remember before I started doing what we do now every day, when I was young, I would sit there and I would... We didn't have video recorders, but I would stand in front of the mirror. I would record my voice. I would play it back. I would play it back. I would play it back. I would watch my tapes when I was a new reporter. Every single day. See what I did wrong. She needed to take videos of herself and watch herself and say, again, again, again.
00:12:47
Speaker 1: Bro, this was the most important moment of her professional life. Day one. And it was bad.
00:12:53
Speaker 2: And the thing is, it's like you fall into the stereotype of pretty girl thinks that everybody will just love her because she's gorgeous and she doesn't really have to try that hard. And I know that that's not what happens, but that's the stereotype that she falls under. And it just feels like she walked right into that.
00:13:09
Speaker 1: I did not, babe. You and I have been discussing her for days. This is the first time we've discussed and I've put it into that type of context. Yeah, it's annoying. So she has, over the years, Robes, they have mashups of it online you can find. Just boom, boom, all these clips of her. Well, I'm a lawyer and da-da-da-da. Well, I'm a lawyer, as people say to her, the interviewer. Help me here. You're the attorney, so help me da-da-da. And just we keep going and going and going. Robes, that's one thing to say that, but she also... has flat out let the words come out of her mouth that she practiced law. Repeatedly, she said that.
00:13:41
Speaker 2: I practiced law in Beijing. I practiced corporate law in China.
00:13:46
Speaker 1: She has said those things directly.
00:13:47
Speaker 2: She has said those things, which are not true.
00:13:50
Speaker 1: Which cannot actually legally be true. The other thing, Robes, is the resume. There are a couple things on her resume. I guess one in particular where she says she worked in California. That's a pretty big no-no. And this is the one that folks are possibly going after for committing a crime.
00:14:04
Speaker 2: Yes. General counsel to fix California from 2024 to 2025. She lists herself as general counsel. And yes, that is considered a crime in California if a prosecutor chose to go forward with it.
00:14:22
Speaker 1: Rose, that one is on paper and blatant. You cannot serve as general counsel in California to a company if you do not have a license to practice law. Rose, that is a big... Okay, is she going to be in trouble? Is she going to... I mean, what's going to come of this? The president, no talk about her. Well, what was it they were saying immediately after members of the administration that they were putting their bets on how long she would last?
00:14:46
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There are a lot of folks behind... closed doors who are saying, yes, we don't think she's going to last long. Also on her LinkedIn, she called herself an associate on international practice team for law firm in China. That's the one where they said she was basically a paid intern.
00:15:05
Speaker 1: So associate, what do we call them in the U? You're a partner or you're an associate, right?
00:15:11
Speaker 2: Right.
00:15:12
Speaker 1: That's a suggestion.
00:15:13
Speaker 2: That she's a lawyer, that she was practicing law in China.
00:15:16
Speaker 1: Yes. No, she did graduate from law school. Have seen the pictures. Pepperdine Law, that was in 2011. New reporting also this morning rose from the Wall Street Journal. I guess it's not a surprise, but we got, right, nobody's saying she passed the bar in any state, but we didn't know necessarily that she took the bar either until the Wall Street Journal comes out with some reporting this morning.
00:15:39
Speaker 2: Yes, the Wall Street Journal said they were able to confirm that she, Katie, did take the California bar, but that she failed the bar exam. So one instance of her trying to take the bar, that's all they came up with, correct? And that she failed it.
00:15:54
Speaker 1: That's a big deal to an attorney. People are so embarrassed. You don't want anybody to know you failed the bar exam.
00:16:03
Speaker 2: After going through three years of law school at Pepperdine.
00:16:06
Speaker 1: It's a personal thing. I can see why she'd never want to say that or tell somebody that or whatever. But I know that stings a little bit to have that out there. And so it stings to be asked, where did you pass the bar? I didn't. What's the next thing? Well, I never took one. Is she going to say that? So why'd you go to law school?
00:16:26
Speaker 2: It makes no sense. And then represent yourself as a lawyer to everyone. That makes no sense. I thought this was so interesting to... From the New York Times article.
00:16:34
Speaker 1: Right.
00:16:35
Speaker 2: Speaking of the bar, they said during the brief phone call Wednesday, the Times did not get a chance to press her again about whether she had ever passed a bar exam. But before she had to go, she did explain that when she first began appearing on cable news, she consulted with Pepperdine's president as to how she should identify herself. She said she was warned... not to use the words attorney or Esquire, but that lawyer was okay.
00:17:03
Speaker 1: Is that really the case, or is that just what the Pepperdine president thinks? Stay here with us, folks. We will tell you what the truth really is behind the terms lawyer versus attorney, and we'll remind you the group that right now wants her to be investigated for a possible crime in California.
00:17:34
Speaker 2: Welcome back, everyone, to Amy and TJ. Katie Zachariah still has a lot of explaining to do. She has not clarified a lot of questions that so many of us have. Like, oh, I don't know. Did you ever take the bar? Did you pass the bar? Why have you been representing yourself as general counsel?
00:17:58
Speaker 1: Just answer those three questions. We can all move on. Get back to the president's agenda.
00:18:02
Speaker 2: So, yes, if she will, so far she has not gotten specific about any of that. But the Campaign for Accountability, it's a left watchdog group. And they are asking, officially, the California Bar to investigate Ms. Zakaria's comments, or at least her resume.
00:18:20
Speaker 1: It's Katie Zakaria.
00:18:21
Speaker 2: God, it's Zakaria. I was doing so well, and then I screwed it up again.
00:18:25
Speaker 1: It's Fareed Zakaria, Ms.
00:18:27
Speaker 2: Zakaria. Yes, I think it is. Oh, my God, now that you just said that, it's going to be even worse.
00:18:31
Speaker 1: You know you're going to call him Fareed Zakaria now.
00:18:34
Speaker 2: Stop it, stop it, Zakaria. Yes, so they say that if the reporting is accurate, Ms. Zakaria has repeatedly held herself out to the public as entitled to practice law without a license to do so, conduct California law treats as a crime.
00:18:51
Speaker 1: How far is that going to go? Who knows? Probably not much is going to come of it. It's not like she's been in a court representing herself. That's a little different. It's on TV. Don't expect that much to come of that. But still, Rome, there is a reason. If you get in trouble, I can't just go in there and say, yes, Your Honor, I am here representing on behalf of Amy Robach. No, I don't have a license. You are not, it's like a medical license. You do not have the authority to be in here to do anything. You're not licensed to do this. You just can't.
00:19:22
Speaker 2: And when you say you're a lawyer, I know there's this lawyer versus attorney thing, but you assume, when I hear someone's a lawyer, I assume they've passed the bar and they're licensed to practice law and to give me legal advice. That's the whole point of being a lawyer.
00:19:37
Speaker 1: You don't look for an attorney instead of a lawyer?
00:19:39
Speaker 2: No.
00:19:40
Speaker 1: Okay, you're shaking your head and most of us are. These words, obviously, robes, are used interchangeably and to represent the same thing. A person in the United States who was given legal advice, who can perform in a court of law, Robes, we all understand what this means. The only place there's a distinction, technically, is academia. When they do, sometimes we'll say a lawyer is someone who went to law school and an attorney is then somebody who passed the bar. You could try to make that distinction, Rose, but folks in the profession, no, they're used interchangeably, including the American Bar Association. All over their website and all their references, yes, a lawyer is somebody licensed to practice law. So they might, Rose, try to thread some needle about a technicality. They might. And say this is all just semantics you all have got caught up on. But she's had three days to say that. What are we waiting on?
00:20:39
Speaker 2: Yes. And look, she can say that all she wants, but common sense is going to prevail. And people are going to recognize that what she's been doing for many, many years has been disingenuous. And that's true.
00:20:52
Speaker 1: It's been misleading. It's okay. Nobody's calling her a liar. We don't have to go that far. It's okay. She got on TV. It sounds better. It sounds good. I practice international law in China. That's impressive to say out loud.
00:21:04
Speaker 2: It certainly is. But I can, I mean, I feel like I would go in the other direction because the worst thing would be for someone to assume I had achieved or accomplished something that I didn't. To me, that would just be so awful. So if I were going on as a legal analyst and just want to point out, I am not a practicing lawyer.
00:21:21
Speaker 1: I did go to law school.
00:21:23
Speaker 2: And then that would be fine. I would appreciate if someone went to Pepperdine Law School. That's impressive as hell. So I would just say, and to be clear, but I did study and I did get a law degree and here's what I know. And that's how you preface it. You don't go in the other direction of So, yes, bottom line, Katie Zachariah is not licensed to practice law and she is not licensed to give legal advice. And yet she's been not giving legal advice but legal commentary. And I think that's misrepresentative if you are even watching her as a viewer and assuming you're getting information coming from someone who is licensed to practice law.
00:21:59
Speaker 1: You know what, Robes, I wouldn'tâ if she would have introduced herself like that in all those segmentsâ Now, just to be clear, I do have, I'm a law school grad, but I haven't been practicing. I don't practice. Then give your advice. I'll still listen to her. I'm not that turned off by the idea of that.
00:22:16
Speaker 2: You spent three years in law school. That's three years more than any of us did. So amazing.
00:22:20
Speaker 1: But then here's the thing with that. When did she finish?
00:22:22
Speaker 2: 2011?
00:22:22
Speaker 1: It's been a while. 2011 was it? Yeah. Oh, she hasn't been practicing. You're kind of out of practice.
00:22:29
Speaker 2: Right. And you weren't getting, you weren't having to pass boards again. You weren't having to make sure you stay fresh up on the law and how it's being applied and any new court rulings that may change what people believe or think about how things should go. Yes, these are important. Yes, you make a good point. It's been 15 years since she was even in law school.
00:22:50
Speaker 1: Damn, I don't want a doctor who just, who hasn't. been practicing in 15 years.
00:22:56
Speaker 2: Well, I don't want a doctor who didn't pass the board.
00:23:00
Speaker 1: You would never.
00:23:01
Speaker 2: I need a board certified doctor always.
00:23:04
Speaker 1: That sounds crazy, but it's the same. Who are you going to go to if you have the option? Someone who passed the bar in New York or someone who went to NYU law school, but has been working as a barista for the past four years.
00:23:14
Speaker 2: Right.
00:23:16
Speaker 1: But I'm a lawyer. Would you like soy milk or would you like almond milk? All right. All right, Katie Zachariah. We are still, still rooting for her to do well in this job and to clear all of this up and move on. We shall see if today is the day. And with that, folks, we appreciate you spending time with us. I'm TJ. That's Robes. Talk soon.