Oct. 14, 2026
NEW: Did Press Secretary Katie Zacharia Commit A Crime By Claiming She’s A Lawyer?
Apple Podcasts 
Spotify 
Castro 
RSS Feed A left leaning non-profit, The Campaign for Accountability, has officially filed a complaint with the California State Bar Association, asking for an investigation into White House Press Secretary Katie Zacharia’s claims that she is a lawyer. To date, there is no evidence that Zacharia is licensed to practice law in any state, yet Zacharia has repeatedly stated in more than a dozen TV appearances that she is a lawyer. The watchdog group is asking the state bar association to refer Zacharia to state prosecutors, where she could be face a misdemeanor, “punishable by up to one year in a county jail or by a fine of up to $1,000” or both.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Wednesday, October 14th. Here's a question. What does it mean to be a lawyer? That is the question. And in fact, a question that one group in California would like to be examined by the California State Bar about our brand new White House secretary. And they want an investigation. Because they say she may have committed a crime. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. One day. She's got one day under her belt and already they're calling for an investigation because she might have broken the law.
00:00:38
Speaker 2: This has turned ugly very quickly.
00:00:41
Speaker 3: She thought yesterday that her biggest problem was that she looked nervous, that.
00:00:46
Speaker 2: She didn't have an answer to our situation with Ukraine.
00:00:52
Speaker 3: She thought maybe she looked bad because she only took three questions from friendly faces. That, turns out, may be the least of her problems.
00:01:03
Speaker 1: Ain't that something, Robes? There's the debate. over what it means to be a lawyer versus what it means to be an attorney. Did you have an understanding that there was a distinction between these two things?
00:01:16
Speaker 3: I didn't, but I did always know that misrepresenting yourself isn't cool.
00:01:22
Speaker 1: There's some gray area in a bunch of this. All right, so let's start with what everybody, I guess, at this point, Robes, is fully aware of. The new press secretary didn't have a good start.
00:01:33
Speaker 3: She didn't, and I think that's something that pretty much everyone could come to the conclusion of by watching her 14-minute press conference, if you want to call it that, because it really wasn't. She read nervously from a script for eight minutes, and for five minutes, she let three people who she knew weren't going to ask her anything too tough ask her a couple questions that sheâ Bumbled her way through.
00:01:59
Speaker 2: Fine. That's OK. We get it.
00:02:01
Speaker 3: It's hard to be in front of a microphone. That's a lot of pressure for just about anybody. And I think everyone can give her a pass and.
00:02:07
Speaker 1: Say, let's give her a do over.
00:02:10
Speaker 2: That's fine. Just in terms of performance. Fine.
00:02:14
Speaker 3: There are much larger issues. And it comes down to this. Has she misrepresented herself? And that's maybe a kind way to put it. The other way to say it is, has she been lying to the American people? Did she lie to the president? Did the president then tell a falsehood about her based on misinformation she provided to him?
00:02:36
Speaker 1: And his post called her an attorney. That was the language. An attorney, not lawyer. He called her an attorney. her an attorney. Do I have that right?
00:02:42
Speaker 2: I believe he called her an attorney.
00:02:44
Speaker 1: So there's a weird debate going on about what it means to be a lawyer versus an attorney. We will get into all that back and forth. But Robes, we talk about the performance wasn't great at her first press briefing. But the bigger issue now has become, Robes, what happened right afterwards. When the president had a press gaggle, they were getting on a plane, going to Alaska, then Arizona. You know, he's out doing his His campaign stops. Robes, this was an awkward moment that I felt bad for her because the president was in the middle of it. And Robes, he doesn't like this. He was put in a position to look bad on a very important question, a very simple question. Where, Miss Zachariah, did you pass the bar? Meaning, where are you licensed as a lawyer?
00:03:39
Speaker 2: And that is a very fair question. That's not a gotcha question.
00:03:43
Speaker 3: That is not a let me try to trip her up and make her look bad or make the president look bad. That is, I just want to say, on its premise, a very fair question. If you have been someone who has described their role repeatedly on camera and in writing as general counsel to an organization.
00:04:08
Speaker 2: If you were.
00:04:09
Speaker 3: A doctor, if you were, I'm trying to think about like even a meteorologist, whatever. If you are somebody who asks for a certain amount of credibility based on education and performance and having an oversight agency ensure that you are licensed and you are capable of doing what you say you can do. If you've misrepresented that about yourself, essentially, I don't want to say lying on your resume, but massaging your resume, making your resume sound better than it actually is, all of that is obviously not okay in any industry, but especially if your job is to be the purveyor or the conveyor of truth, of facts. You are the spokesperson for the White House. And now we're questioning if you've even been truthful about your own credentials.
00:05:13
Speaker 2: That's a major problem.
00:05:14
Speaker 1: Let me stop. You know, now I am like, oh, we shouldn't have even done this episode. I say that because as you were talking that out, babe, when have we in any year of his presidency thought that the press secretary was out there being, as you said, the person who is speaking truth to the American people. No, that person is there to convey whatever the president's messaging is, and oftentimes maybe people can take issue with whether or not that's the truth. It's, it's, okay, she's, I hate the word mouthpiece, but it's propaganda to a certain degree, right? That, that word even so heavy, we shouldn't use that here in the United States. What I'm saying is she's there to promote the president, and we're not surprised that this new Press secretary is there also to promote the president.
00:06:05
Speaker 2: We understand that.
00:06:07
Speaker 1: So what I'm saying, do we have, should we give Katie Zachariah a different bar? Should we lower the bar, if you will? Okay, she lied on her resume. So we expect her to do that at the podium.
00:06:24
Speaker 2: No, is my answer.
00:06:26
Speaker 3: No. No, I think that that actually speaks to a larger issue. I understand that her job is to promote the president, to promote the president's agenda, to put it in the best light possible, and to answer questions, though, hard questions, tough questions from the press, who then ask detailed questions about what she is saying.
00:07:02
Speaker 2: So this is the role.
00:07:03
Speaker 3: We understand it pretty well. But if she isn't even truthful enough about her own credentials, about her own resume. Look, I understand no one expects someone to be perfectly objective in that role.
00:07:21
Speaker 2: I get that.
00:07:22
Speaker 3: But you do expect them to have a certain, and I hate to say this, but yes, moral compass in that if you're going to be presenting something to us, If we already know that how you presented yourself to us isn't truthful, how can we believe anything you're telling us at all, period? Like there's just, there's no foundation. There's no, there's nothing to base anything off of. And how can she do her job effectively in any way?
00:07:53
Speaker 1: But I'm saying, are we putting her through some test or some standard that we just shouldn't given who the president is? We're acting as if she's.
00:08:03
Speaker 3: Going to what?
00:08:03
Speaker 2: Who this president is or who any president is?
00:08:05
Speaker 1: This one. I am saying, why are we holding this press secretary to some new, excuse me, old standard, the baseline standard of being straight with us?
00:08:18
Speaker 3: No.
00:08:19
Speaker 1: She's there to do his bidding. Robes, every single person that has gone before a Senate or House committee, right? They raise their hands. They take the oath. They testify before committee. They won't even say that the president lost to Joe Biden. You know that? Every time they're asked, will you admit here under oath that the president lost the election to Joe Biden? None of them will. What I'm saying, Robes, they have a different standard of loyalty and truth. Why are we holding her to some standard other than the one that all of Trump's minions have? She's lying about her resume, potentially. She's not being honest about her resume, potentially.
00:09:02
Speaker 3: I don't think that means we should lower our standards about how someone presents themselves. Like, I understand what you're saying about what the role is in this administration. If you're a part of the cabinet, if you're a part of his inner circle, there is a certain expectation. And I do think we get that. And as journalists, we get to pepper that person with questions.
00:09:20
Speaker 2: We get to ask hard questions. We get to investigate.
00:09:24
Speaker 3: And we understand the lens through which we're receiving certain bits of information. However, I don't think that means it's okay to lower our standards about who someone is, how they represent themselves, how they present themselves, and then say, well, of course, that's just par for the course. I think lowering our standards with an expectation that nobody tells the truth in this administration is very dangerous.
00:09:47
Speaker 1: But I feel stupid in expecting anybody to tell the truth in this administration. Like, I feel like an idiot. To have an expectation that anybody there.
00:09:55
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean.
00:09:55
Speaker 1: That we shouldn't... I'm with you 100%. But I feel stupid. Like, yeah, DJ, of course, you misrepresent it. Yeah, DJ, of course, they just follow the president's line. That type of thing. Like, what standard? There is a new one, baby.
00:10:11
Speaker 3: He.
00:10:12
Speaker 1: He put out an AI video of himself wrestling a tiger, the same one that mauled a man to death. And he's laughing about it and mocking it. What standard are we talking about? There is not one. He said it is way, way, way low. She has now performed admirably compared to a lot of people in the administration. All she did was lie on her resume.
00:10:36
Speaker 2: So far, it's day two.
00:10:38
Speaker 1: That's a good point.
00:10:39
Speaker 3: And there's a phrase I lean on in these moments. I'm sorry.
00:10:42
Speaker 1: Let me correct.
00:10:42
Speaker 2: I get it.
00:10:43
Speaker 1: Because I shouldn't say she lied on her resume. I'm sorry. That's not appropriate. I just want to correct what I'm saying. She may have.
00:10:48
Speaker 3: Right.
00:10:49
Speaker 1: But misrepresented.
00:10:50
Speaker 2: Seems like she did.
00:10:50
Speaker 1: Or what's in her mind. Or people seeing it differently. I am sorry. I apologize. I don't want to say this woman is a liar or she lied on her resume. But the misrepresentation we're talking about potentially, Robes, is not something Why am I falling out of my chair to think that a Trump loyalist would do something along these lines? What about Kash Patel's background? Pete Hex's background. You remember his confirmation hearings and the stuff that happened out in San Francisco and the hotel and the woman? OK, I'm just why am I shocked? or falling out of the seat that another person in Trump's orbit may not have been completely truthful about something. I feel stupid to be upset about it.
00:11:39
Speaker 2: I hear what you're saying.
00:11:40
Speaker 1: Okay, that's what I'm saying. Okay, go ahead. The saying you were saying. I get it.
00:11:43
Speaker 3: No, and I just, I think what we need to be careful of, because we get so used to a lowered standard, that we end up, and there's a phrase that I've leaned on a lot in my life, and I just think it might be applicable here.
00:11:57
Speaker 2: The inevitability of something doesn't make it right.
00:12:00
Speaker 3: And I just think because we expect this or we should expect this or we've seen this before shouldn't mean that we still shouldn't call it out, investigate it and actually call people on their bullshit.
00:12:14
Speaker 2: That's still our job.
00:12:15
Speaker 1: And that is what a group out there in California, this whole thing. Yes, babe, they're calling for a potential investigation from the California Bar Association. Now, this is a left-leaning group. They are called the California Campaign for Accountability. Now, and it is exactly what it sounds like it is. But they are holding truth to power, and they claim to go after people in authority who abuse their power. So they have now sent a formal letter, Robes, to the California Bar Association. Not just saying look into this, but look into this for possible criminal violation.
00:12:51
Speaker 3: Oh, yes.
00:12:52
Speaker 2: They have gotten specific. They say that Zachariah... said.
00:12:56
Speaker 3: In at least, they actually must have gone through all of her appearances, or at least many of them, and said in 18 television appearances from February 2025 through October 2026, they claim that.
00:13:05
Speaker 2: Zachariah has said she is a lawyer.
00:13:14
Speaker 3: And the quote they give, they say that the California Business and Professional Code states, any person advertising or holding himself or herself out as a practicing or entitled to practice law or otherwise practicing law who is not an active licensee of the state bar in this state at the time of doing so is guilty. of a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year in a county jail or by a fine of up to $ 1, 000 or both.
00:13:49
Speaker 1: And I guess some would look at that and go, ah, California, some left-leaning group. This is just some BS, some political this or that. But the fact remains, Robes, that on day one of her tenure, There are people asking that she be investigated for a criminal violation. That's not a good day. It's not a good day. And is this silly? Is this to be dismissed? Is this nothing to make a big deal about? Is this semantics, lawyer versus attorney, passed the bar, didn't pass the bar, I practice in China, all this stuff. Is this just small potatoes, baby? How significant is this? And I'm sure people are dismissing and the White House is like, wow, she did a great job on day one. It's what they're supposed to say. Where does it matter? There's just so many disasters, babe, and so much chaos. I'm not sure if I should give more of a shit about what's going on with the ambassador to Greece to the new White House press secretary. I don't know what I'm supposed to be outraged about because it's all outrageous.
00:15:01
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think this is difficult because it's eroding further. If that's possible, any belief in the, the credibility, the morality, the, I don't even know what other word to put there where you actually are proud to be an American, where you can trust your government, where you can trust your, what public officials are.
00:15:25
Speaker 2: Telling you, and you can stand behind.
00:15:28
Speaker 3: Proudly your leaders in their choices, in their decisions, because we've elected these folks to represent us and to make the best decisions on our behalf.
00:15:37
Speaker 2: It's a tough time to be an American.
00:15:39
Speaker 1: You know, to your point, babe, I guess I've fallen victim to what you're explaining.
00:15:50
Speaker 3: Like, why?
00:15:51
Speaker 1: You can't get to a point of complacency to where you go, yeah, this is standard stuff. I am being told that the new White House press secretary might have committed a crime by representing herself as an attorney. And my response is just to shrug my shoulders and go, yeah, that sounds about right. That's where I am.
00:16:10
Speaker 2: That's dangerous.
00:16:11
Speaker 1: OK, we'll stay here, folks. We said this is semantics. Do you know the difference between a lawyer and an attorney? Well, you might be surprised to find out that lawyers and attorneys don't agree either.
00:16:36
Speaker 2: Welcome back, everyone, to Amy and TJ.
00:16:38
Speaker 3: Who knew that the new White House press secretary was going to give us all a little legal lesson, or certainly a lesson in semantics that I wasn't even aware of. Did you know that all attorneys are lawyers, but not all lawyers are attorneys?
00:16:53
Speaker 2: Is that the way it goes?
00:16:54
Speaker 1: But then not all lawyers and attorneys agree on what you just said. It's all over the place.
00:16:59
Speaker 2: Yes, attorneys.
00:17:01
Speaker 3: have passed a state bar exam and hold an active license. Some lawyers hold other types of degrees but have not passed or taken a bar exam. So it's confusing which one is the correct term to use if you've gone to law school, have a law degree, but haven't passed the bar.
00:17:20
Speaker 1: So, okay. So if that's the distinction that some want to make, well, there are others in the community say these are interchangeable terms. And everybody knows good and hell well, if you say you're a lawyer... You are saying you are licensed to practice law. You have the authority to practice law. There are plenty of places, dictionaries, whatever. These are interchangeable words. Okay, that's fine. Then you have other people out there who are in that other camp that you just explained. So what is the truth? How many times does she go out there and say, hey, I'm a lawyer versus I'm an attorney? Can you be out there? Now, you cannot be general counsel and represent and file in court. You have to have a license to do that.
00:18:00
Speaker 3: Right. A lawyer, from what we've gathered here, is someone who has been trained in the law or earned a law degree. So is it fair to say that Katie Zachariah.
00:18:12
Speaker 2: Is a lawyer?
00:18:13
Speaker 3: However, she is not an attorney because attorneys are licensed.
00:18:18
Speaker 1: Again, there are some who areâ not me, by the way. This ain't me. There are plenty that argue theseâ that' s a bullshit argumentâ Like these are the same term. You know good and hell well. If you are saying you're a lawyer, you're saying you are licensed to practice ropes. If you are licensed to do anything, to be a truck driver, to be a rope, it's like, how about this? You got your Bachelor of Arts in Journalism. When you graduated with a Bachelor of Arts in Journalism, if you immediately started out your first job out of college, was in pharmaceutical sales. And then you continued in that career and made your way all the way up to the top CEO of a pharmaceutical company.
00:19:07
Speaker 2: I can't call myself a journalist.
00:19:08
Speaker 1: That's what I'm arguing.
00:19:09
Speaker 3: Exactly.
00:19:09
Speaker 1: And that's what they're arguing. You can't. You never practiced law. and you never were licensed to give you the authority to practice law.
00:19:20
Speaker 3: I would also, you could do this thing with a doctorate as well.
00:19:23
Speaker 1: Keep going.
00:19:23
Speaker 3: Because, yeah, a lot of people, I mean, my brother has an MD after his name. He is board certified, and he has to continue to get recertified. He had to, yes, he had to pass his board exams. He had to go through all sorts of steps. It took years and years and years to be a practicing medical doctor.
00:19:47
Speaker 2: You could call yourself a doctor if you've earned a PhD.
00:19:51
Speaker 3: Sure. Lots of other different varying degrees of doctorates. But there is, we know, we understand in order to actually be someone who is considered a certain caliber or has earned a certain degree, beyond the degree, but has the experience and has an overseeing body of like-minded or colleagues who can say, yes, this person is licensed to practice said degree. There is a distinction for obvious reasons.
00:20:26
Speaker 1: Does it matter? I don't think To be honest with you, this is the end of the world. I don't care if she's a lawyer or not. It's not a requirement to be the White House press secretary. It doesn't matter.
00:20:36
Speaker 3: She wouldn't have needed to be a lawyer or an attorney or, frankly, even have whatever degree to do what she's doing and to do it well. But in order to try and bolster her credibility, yes, we were all told she was an attorney. We have all seen on her LinkedIn profile that she represents herself as anybody having been a general counsel for a organization. And I'm telling you that does have her view through a different lens. You do consider her, her word and what she says and her experience. You're, you're, you're evaluating what she tells you, how she tells you it through that lens to be told then that that's a misrepresentation of what she does and who she is and what her experience is.
00:21:27
Speaker 2: That, That's fair to question her credibility.
00:21:33
Speaker 1: Okay, and so we missed, we forgot her quotes here to mention. When the president was asked, when he was leaving, where did she practice law? Excuse me, where did she pass the bar exam? What state? Her response was, I went to China. The follow-up was, where did you get barred? What state? She said again, I went to China, and that was it. And the president, this is one I give him, I mean, he didn't know. He genuinely turned to her authentically in that moment. Like, it was an honest moment. They asked him. He didn't know. He just turned to her about, hey, where'd you go to? I went to China. Where'd you get barred? I went to China. And, Robes, the other answer she gave here later, I can't remember which outlet she said this to. I practiced international transaction law with all the appropriate credentials. Robes, that's an answer that means I don't have an answer. We've seen plenty of statements. Robes, you said you're a lawyer. Where did you practice law? Where do you have a bar? Robes, all she had to say was, I'm not actually barred. I never took one. Just be honest and let's move on.
00:22:43
Speaker 2: All she had to say was that.
00:22:44
Speaker 3: She could just say, look, I graduated with a law degree, but I never passed the bar.
00:22:48
Speaker 1: There's nothing to talk about.
00:22:49
Speaker 2: And now we're done. And you don't... It's not as if she had.
00:22:52
Speaker 3: She has a job where she needs legal credentials. So.
00:22:56
Speaker 2: there was no reason for her to lie.
00:22:58
Speaker 3: There was no reason for her to be evasive, I guess might be the best way to put it, because I felt like her answer was evasive. And I understand that might have just been her practicing for her job, because that is what she's probably going to be paid to do, to be evasive. But I don't think it bodes well for her in terms of any relationship she is going to have, not only with the White House press corps, but with the American people.
00:23:21
Speaker 2: And that's important.
00:23:22
Speaker 1: Right now, the press corps is after her.
00:23:24
Speaker 2: Because she misrepresented herself.
00:23:26
Speaker 1: That room is trying to get her.
00:23:27
Speaker 3: And it's insulting to people who know better, who are smarter, and who have obvious means and resources to prove what she said is false.
00:23:39
Speaker 1: Bless her heart is what we say. And I am still robed, rooting for her. And I hope to get this worked out. And this is just an initial bump. But this is a mess right now. They're out on the road together traveling. I'm not sure when she's going to do a press conference, another one. Again, one is not scheduled. But Katie Zachariah is on the job. We appreciate you as always.
00:24:00
Speaker 2: For now.
00:24:01
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. There's some within the White House, according to many sources and reporting.
00:24:05
Speaker 3: She's on the job for now. We'll see what happens. I don't know how long she lasts.
00:24:11
Speaker 1: All right, folks. We appreciate you as always. I'm TJ. That's Robes. We'll talk soon.
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Wednesday, October 14th. Here's a question. What does it mean to be a lawyer? That is the question. And in fact, a question that one group in California would like to be examined by the California State Bar about our brand new White House secretary. And they want an investigation. Because they say she may have committed a crime. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. One day. She's got one day under her belt and already they're calling for an investigation because she might have broken the law.
00:00:38
Speaker 2: This has turned ugly very quickly.
00:00:41
Speaker 3: She thought yesterday that her biggest problem was that she looked nervous, that.
00:00:46
Speaker 2: She didn't have an answer to our situation with Ukraine.
00:00:52
Speaker 3: She thought maybe she looked bad because she only took three questions from friendly faces. That, turns out, may be the least of her problems.
00:01:03
Speaker 1: Ain't that something, Robes? There's the debate. over what it means to be a lawyer versus what it means to be an attorney. Did you have an understanding that there was a distinction between these two things?
00:01:16
Speaker 3: I didn't, but I did always know that misrepresenting yourself isn't cool.
00:01:22
Speaker 1: There's some gray area in a bunch of this. All right, so let's start with what everybody, I guess, at this point, Robes, is fully aware of. The new press secretary didn't have a good start.
00:01:33
Speaker 3: She didn't, and I think that's something that pretty much everyone could come to the conclusion of by watching her 14-minute press conference, if you want to call it that, because it really wasn't. She read nervously from a script for eight minutes, and for five minutes, she let three people who she knew weren't going to ask her anything too tough ask her a couple questions that sheâ Bumbled her way through.
00:01:59
Speaker 2: Fine. That's OK. We get it.
00:02:01
Speaker 3: It's hard to be in front of a microphone. That's a lot of pressure for just about anybody. And I think everyone can give her a pass and.
00:02:07
Speaker 1: Say, let's give her a do over.
00:02:10
Speaker 2: That's fine. Just in terms of performance. Fine.
00:02:14
Speaker 3: There are much larger issues. And it comes down to this. Has she misrepresented herself? And that's maybe a kind way to put it. The other way to say it is, has she been lying to the American people? Did she lie to the president? Did the president then tell a falsehood about her based on misinformation she provided to him?
00:02:36
Speaker 1: And his post called her an attorney. That was the language. An attorney, not lawyer. He called her an attorney. her an attorney. Do I have that right?
00:02:42
Speaker 2: I believe he called her an attorney.
00:02:44
Speaker 1: So there's a weird debate going on about what it means to be a lawyer versus an attorney. We will get into all that back and forth. But Robes, we talk about the performance wasn't great at her first press briefing. But the bigger issue now has become, Robes, what happened right afterwards. When the president had a press gaggle, they were getting on a plane, going to Alaska, then Arizona. You know, he's out doing his His campaign stops. Robes, this was an awkward moment that I felt bad for her because the president was in the middle of it. And Robes, he doesn't like this. He was put in a position to look bad on a very important question, a very simple question. Where, Miss Zachariah, did you pass the bar? Meaning, where are you licensed as a lawyer?
00:03:39
Speaker 2: And that is a very fair question. That's not a gotcha question.
00:03:43
Speaker 3: That is not a let me try to trip her up and make her look bad or make the president look bad. That is, I just want to say, on its premise, a very fair question. If you have been someone who has described their role repeatedly on camera and in writing as general counsel to an organization.
00:04:08
Speaker 2: If you were.
00:04:09
Speaker 3: A doctor, if you were, I'm trying to think about like even a meteorologist, whatever. If you are somebody who asks for a certain amount of credibility based on education and performance and having an oversight agency ensure that you are licensed and you are capable of doing what you say you can do. If you've misrepresented that about yourself, essentially, I don't want to say lying on your resume, but massaging your resume, making your resume sound better than it actually is, all of that is obviously not okay in any industry, but especially if your job is to be the purveyor or the conveyor of truth, of facts. You are the spokesperson for the White House. And now we're questioning if you've even been truthful about your own credentials.
00:05:13
Speaker 2: That's a major problem.
00:05:14
Speaker 1: Let me stop. You know, now I am like, oh, we shouldn't have even done this episode. I say that because as you were talking that out, babe, when have we in any year of his presidency thought that the press secretary was out there being, as you said, the person who is speaking truth to the American people. No, that person is there to convey whatever the president's messaging is, and oftentimes maybe people can take issue with whether or not that's the truth. It's, it's, okay, she's, I hate the word mouthpiece, but it's propaganda to a certain degree, right? That, that word even so heavy, we shouldn't use that here in the United States. What I'm saying is she's there to promote the president, and we're not surprised that this new Press secretary is there also to promote the president.
00:06:05
Speaker 2: We understand that.
00:06:07
Speaker 1: So what I'm saying, do we have, should we give Katie Zachariah a different bar? Should we lower the bar, if you will? Okay, she lied on her resume. So we expect her to do that at the podium.
00:06:24
Speaker 2: No, is my answer.
00:06:26
Speaker 3: No. No, I think that that actually speaks to a larger issue. I understand that her job is to promote the president, to promote the president's agenda, to put it in the best light possible, and to answer questions, though, hard questions, tough questions from the press, who then ask detailed questions about what she is saying.
00:07:02
Speaker 2: So this is the role.
00:07:03
Speaker 3: We understand it pretty well. But if she isn't even truthful enough about her own credentials, about her own resume. Look, I understand no one expects someone to be perfectly objective in that role.
00:07:21
Speaker 2: I get that.
00:07:22
Speaker 3: But you do expect them to have a certain, and I hate to say this, but yes, moral compass in that if you're going to be presenting something to us, If we already know that how you presented yourself to us isn't truthful, how can we believe anything you're telling us at all, period? Like there's just, there's no foundation. There's no, there's nothing to base anything off of. And how can she do her job effectively in any way?
00:07:53
Speaker 1: But I'm saying, are we putting her through some test or some standard that we just shouldn't given who the president is? We're acting as if she's.
00:08:03
Speaker 3: Going to what?
00:08:03
Speaker 2: Who this president is or who any president is?
00:08:05
Speaker 1: This one. I am saying, why are we holding this press secretary to some new, excuse me, old standard, the baseline standard of being straight with us?
00:08:18
Speaker 3: No.
00:08:19
Speaker 1: She's there to do his bidding. Robes, every single person that has gone before a Senate or House committee, right? They raise their hands. They take the oath. They testify before committee. They won't even say that the president lost to Joe Biden. You know that? Every time they're asked, will you admit here under oath that the president lost the election to Joe Biden? None of them will. What I'm saying, Robes, they have a different standard of loyalty and truth. Why are we holding her to some standard other than the one that all of Trump's minions have? She's lying about her resume, potentially. She's not being honest about her resume, potentially.
00:09:02
Speaker 3: I don't think that means we should lower our standards about how someone presents themselves. Like, I understand what you're saying about what the role is in this administration. If you're a part of the cabinet, if you're a part of his inner circle, there is a certain expectation. And I do think we get that. And as journalists, we get to pepper that person with questions.
00:09:20
Speaker 2: We get to ask hard questions. We get to investigate.
00:09:24
Speaker 3: And we understand the lens through which we're receiving certain bits of information. However, I don't think that means it's okay to lower our standards about who someone is, how they represent themselves, how they present themselves, and then say, well, of course, that's just par for the course. I think lowering our standards with an expectation that nobody tells the truth in this administration is very dangerous.
00:09:47
Speaker 1: But I feel stupid in expecting anybody to tell the truth in this administration. Like, I feel like an idiot. To have an expectation that anybody there.
00:09:55
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean.
00:09:55
Speaker 1: That we shouldn't... I'm with you 100%. But I feel stupid. Like, yeah, DJ, of course, you misrepresent it. Yeah, DJ, of course, they just follow the president's line. That type of thing. Like, what standard? There is a new one, baby.
00:10:11
Speaker 3: He.
00:10:12
Speaker 1: He put out an AI video of himself wrestling a tiger, the same one that mauled a man to death. And he's laughing about it and mocking it. What standard are we talking about? There is not one. He said it is way, way, way low. She has now performed admirably compared to a lot of people in the administration. All she did was lie on her resume.
00:10:36
Speaker 2: So far, it's day two.
00:10:38
Speaker 1: That's a good point.
00:10:39
Speaker 3: And there's a phrase I lean on in these moments. I'm sorry.
00:10:42
Speaker 1: Let me correct.
00:10:42
Speaker 2: I get it.
00:10:43
Speaker 1: Because I shouldn't say she lied on her resume. I'm sorry. That's not appropriate. I just want to correct what I'm saying. She may have.
00:10:48
Speaker 3: Right.
00:10:49
Speaker 1: But misrepresented.
00:10:50
Speaker 2: Seems like she did.
00:10:50
Speaker 1: Or what's in her mind. Or people seeing it differently. I am sorry. I apologize. I don't want to say this woman is a liar or she lied on her resume. But the misrepresentation we're talking about potentially, Robes, is not something Why am I falling out of my chair to think that a Trump loyalist would do something along these lines? What about Kash Patel's background? Pete Hex's background. You remember his confirmation hearings and the stuff that happened out in San Francisco and the hotel and the woman? OK, I'm just why am I shocked? or falling out of the seat that another person in Trump's orbit may not have been completely truthful about something. I feel stupid to be upset about it.
00:11:39
Speaker 2: I hear what you're saying.
00:11:40
Speaker 1: Okay, that's what I'm saying. Okay, go ahead. The saying you were saying. I get it.
00:11:43
Speaker 3: No, and I just, I think what we need to be careful of, because we get so used to a lowered standard, that we end up, and there's a phrase that I've leaned on a lot in my life, and I just think it might be applicable here.
00:11:57
Speaker 2: The inevitability of something doesn't make it right.
00:12:00
Speaker 3: And I just think because we expect this or we should expect this or we've seen this before shouldn't mean that we still shouldn't call it out, investigate it and actually call people on their bullshit.
00:12:14
Speaker 2: That's still our job.
00:12:15
Speaker 1: And that is what a group out there in California, this whole thing. Yes, babe, they're calling for a potential investigation from the California Bar Association. Now, this is a left-leaning group. They are called the California Campaign for Accountability. Now, and it is exactly what it sounds like it is. But they are holding truth to power, and they claim to go after people in authority who abuse their power. So they have now sent a formal letter, Robes, to the California Bar Association. Not just saying look into this, but look into this for possible criminal violation.
00:12:51
Speaker 3: Oh, yes.
00:12:52
Speaker 2: They have gotten specific. They say that Zachariah... said.
00:12:56
Speaker 3: In at least, they actually must have gone through all of her appearances, or at least many of them, and said in 18 television appearances from February 2025 through October 2026, they claim that.
00:13:05
Speaker 2: Zachariah has said she is a lawyer.
00:13:14
Speaker 3: And the quote they give, they say that the California Business and Professional Code states, any person advertising or holding himself or herself out as a practicing or entitled to practice law or otherwise practicing law who is not an active licensee of the state bar in this state at the time of doing so is guilty. of a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year in a county jail or by a fine of up to $ 1, 000 or both.
00:13:49
Speaker 1: And I guess some would look at that and go, ah, California, some left-leaning group. This is just some BS, some political this or that. But the fact remains, Robes, that on day one of her tenure, There are people asking that she be investigated for a criminal violation. That's not a good day. It's not a good day. And is this silly? Is this to be dismissed? Is this nothing to make a big deal about? Is this semantics, lawyer versus attorney, passed the bar, didn't pass the bar, I practice in China, all this stuff. Is this just small potatoes, baby? How significant is this? And I'm sure people are dismissing and the White House is like, wow, she did a great job on day one. It's what they're supposed to say. Where does it matter? There's just so many disasters, babe, and so much chaos. I'm not sure if I should give more of a shit about what's going on with the ambassador to Greece to the new White House press secretary. I don't know what I'm supposed to be outraged about because it's all outrageous.
00:15:01
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think this is difficult because it's eroding further. If that's possible, any belief in the, the credibility, the morality, the, I don't even know what other word to put there where you actually are proud to be an American, where you can trust your government, where you can trust your, what public officials are.
00:15:25
Speaker 2: Telling you, and you can stand behind.
00:15:28
Speaker 3: Proudly your leaders in their choices, in their decisions, because we've elected these folks to represent us and to make the best decisions on our behalf.
00:15:37
Speaker 2: It's a tough time to be an American.
00:15:39
Speaker 1: You know, to your point, babe, I guess I've fallen victim to what you're explaining.
00:15:50
Speaker 3: Like, why?
00:15:51
Speaker 1: You can't get to a point of complacency to where you go, yeah, this is standard stuff. I am being told that the new White House press secretary might have committed a crime by representing herself as an attorney. And my response is just to shrug my shoulders and go, yeah, that sounds about right. That's where I am.
00:16:10
Speaker 2: That's dangerous.
00:16:11
Speaker 1: OK, we'll stay here, folks. We said this is semantics. Do you know the difference between a lawyer and an attorney? Well, you might be surprised to find out that lawyers and attorneys don't agree either.
00:16:36
Speaker 2: Welcome back, everyone, to Amy and TJ.
00:16:38
Speaker 3: Who knew that the new White House press secretary was going to give us all a little legal lesson, or certainly a lesson in semantics that I wasn't even aware of. Did you know that all attorneys are lawyers, but not all lawyers are attorneys?
00:16:53
Speaker 2: Is that the way it goes?
00:16:54
Speaker 1: But then not all lawyers and attorneys agree on what you just said. It's all over the place.
00:16:59
Speaker 2: Yes, attorneys.
00:17:01
Speaker 3: have passed a state bar exam and hold an active license. Some lawyers hold other types of degrees but have not passed or taken a bar exam. So it's confusing which one is the correct term to use if you've gone to law school, have a law degree, but haven't passed the bar.
00:17:20
Speaker 1: So, okay. So if that's the distinction that some want to make, well, there are others in the community say these are interchangeable terms. And everybody knows good and hell well, if you say you're a lawyer... You are saying you are licensed to practice law. You have the authority to practice law. There are plenty of places, dictionaries, whatever. These are interchangeable words. Okay, that's fine. Then you have other people out there who are in that other camp that you just explained. So what is the truth? How many times does she go out there and say, hey, I'm a lawyer versus I'm an attorney? Can you be out there? Now, you cannot be general counsel and represent and file in court. You have to have a license to do that.
00:18:00
Speaker 3: Right. A lawyer, from what we've gathered here, is someone who has been trained in the law or earned a law degree. So is it fair to say that Katie Zachariah.
00:18:12
Speaker 2: Is a lawyer?
00:18:13
Speaker 3: However, she is not an attorney because attorneys are licensed.
00:18:18
Speaker 1: Again, there are some who areâ not me, by the way. This ain't me. There are plenty that argue theseâ that' s a bullshit argumentâ Like these are the same term. You know good and hell well. If you are saying you're a lawyer, you're saying you are licensed to practice ropes. If you are licensed to do anything, to be a truck driver, to be a rope, it's like, how about this? You got your Bachelor of Arts in Journalism. When you graduated with a Bachelor of Arts in Journalism, if you immediately started out your first job out of college, was in pharmaceutical sales. And then you continued in that career and made your way all the way up to the top CEO of a pharmaceutical company.
00:19:07
Speaker 2: I can't call myself a journalist.
00:19:08
Speaker 1: That's what I'm arguing.
00:19:09
Speaker 3: Exactly.
00:19:09
Speaker 1: And that's what they're arguing. You can't. You never practiced law. and you never were licensed to give you the authority to practice law.
00:19:20
Speaker 3: I would also, you could do this thing with a doctorate as well.
00:19:23
Speaker 1: Keep going.
00:19:23
Speaker 3: Because, yeah, a lot of people, I mean, my brother has an MD after his name. He is board certified, and he has to continue to get recertified. He had to, yes, he had to pass his board exams. He had to go through all sorts of steps. It took years and years and years to be a practicing medical doctor.
00:19:47
Speaker 2: You could call yourself a doctor if you've earned a PhD.
00:19:51
Speaker 3: Sure. Lots of other different varying degrees of doctorates. But there is, we know, we understand in order to actually be someone who is considered a certain caliber or has earned a certain degree, beyond the degree, but has the experience and has an overseeing body of like-minded or colleagues who can say, yes, this person is licensed to practice said degree. There is a distinction for obvious reasons.
00:20:26
Speaker 1: Does it matter? I don't think To be honest with you, this is the end of the world. I don't care if she's a lawyer or not. It's not a requirement to be the White House press secretary. It doesn't matter.
00:20:36
Speaker 3: She wouldn't have needed to be a lawyer or an attorney or, frankly, even have whatever degree to do what she's doing and to do it well. But in order to try and bolster her credibility, yes, we were all told she was an attorney. We have all seen on her LinkedIn profile that she represents herself as anybody having been a general counsel for a organization. And I'm telling you that does have her view through a different lens. You do consider her, her word and what she says and her experience. You're, you're, you're evaluating what she tells you, how she tells you it through that lens to be told then that that's a misrepresentation of what she does and who she is and what her experience is.
00:21:27
Speaker 2: That, That's fair to question her credibility.
00:21:33
Speaker 1: Okay, and so we missed, we forgot her quotes here to mention. When the president was asked, when he was leaving, where did she practice law? Excuse me, where did she pass the bar exam? What state? Her response was, I went to China. The follow-up was, where did you get barred? What state? She said again, I went to China, and that was it. And the president, this is one I give him, I mean, he didn't know. He genuinely turned to her authentically in that moment. Like, it was an honest moment. They asked him. He didn't know. He just turned to her about, hey, where'd you go to? I went to China. Where'd you get barred? I went to China. And, Robes, the other answer she gave here later, I can't remember which outlet she said this to. I practiced international transaction law with all the appropriate credentials. Robes, that's an answer that means I don't have an answer. We've seen plenty of statements. Robes, you said you're a lawyer. Where did you practice law? Where do you have a bar? Robes, all she had to say was, I'm not actually barred. I never took one. Just be honest and let's move on.
00:22:43
Speaker 2: All she had to say was that.
00:22:44
Speaker 3: She could just say, look, I graduated with a law degree, but I never passed the bar.
00:22:48
Speaker 1: There's nothing to talk about.
00:22:49
Speaker 2: And now we're done. And you don't... It's not as if she had.
00:22:52
Speaker 3: She has a job where she needs legal credentials. So.
00:22:56
Speaker 2: there was no reason for her to lie.
00:22:58
Speaker 3: There was no reason for her to be evasive, I guess might be the best way to put it, because I felt like her answer was evasive. And I understand that might have just been her practicing for her job, because that is what she's probably going to be paid to do, to be evasive. But I don't think it bodes well for her in terms of any relationship she is going to have, not only with the White House press corps, but with the American people.
00:23:21
Speaker 2: And that's important.
00:23:22
Speaker 1: Right now, the press corps is after her.
00:23:24
Speaker 2: Because she misrepresented herself.
00:23:26
Speaker 1: That room is trying to get her.
00:23:27
Speaker 3: And it's insulting to people who know better, who are smarter, and who have obvious means and resources to prove what she said is false.
00:23:39
Speaker 1: Bless her heart is what we say. And I am still robed, rooting for her. And I hope to get this worked out. And this is just an initial bump. But this is a mess right now. They're out on the road together traveling. I'm not sure when she's going to do a press conference, another one. Again, one is not scheduled. But Katie Zachariah is on the job. We appreciate you as always.
00:24:00
Speaker 2: For now.
00:24:01
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. There's some within the White House, according to many sources and reporting.
00:24:05
Speaker 3: She's on the job for now. We'll see what happens. I don't know how long she lasts.
00:24:11
Speaker 1: All right, folks. We appreciate you as always. I'm TJ. That's Robes. We'll talk soon.