Aug. 26, 2026
Montana Man Kills 8 Family Members At Sunday Supper, As 12-Year-Old Niece Calls 9-1-1
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RSS Feed This is a disturbing trend that is happening weekly, if not daily: a man kills his entire family and then himself. 44-year-old Alan Smith was reportedly kicked out of his Billings, Montana home, but came back with a gun during dinner and murdered his sister, her four children, his parents and his 90-year-old grandmother in a wheelchair. He then set the home on fire and took his own life as police were approaching. In the middle of his rampage, his 12-year-old niece was able to call 9-1-1, where dispatchers heard gunfire in the background. Unfortunately, it was too late by the time police arrived, and unfortunately this summer has proven to be among the deadliest in family mass shootings.
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00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey there folks, it is Wednesday, August 26th. We cannot believe we are doing another episode on this. And once again, we have a story of a man wiping out his family. This time, he has killed eight. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. At what point, Robes, are we all gonna start recognizing and seeing this differently? Because familicide, or family annihilation, Robes, at least in the past few months, has been an epidemic.
00:00:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, and babe, we've been talking about this now weekly, and now it feels like daily over the past.
00:00:43
Speaker 3: Couple of months. And each day, our jaw drops.
00:00:48
Speaker 2: Our stomachs churn as we see another very eerily similar mass killing happening. And they all seem to bear the same hallmarks. And I feel like this is a wake-up call. It's been a wake-up call for some time. And I don't know at what point it rises to the level where we actually start talking about this in a real way.
00:01:10
Speaker 3: This is serious. This is school shooting serious.
00:01:14
Speaker 1: And there have been far more people who have died at the hands of their family members in a mass shooting this year and even in the past three months than we've had students killed on campuses this year because of shootings. Robes, and you said it seemed like daily. It was yesterday, Robes. We had just gotten the word about the guy out of Portland in the Washington area. Oregon and Washington State. Well, he killed five, and he killed himself. And he took out what was his girlfriend and his girlfriend's mom. He killed five, wiped them out. We just got word about that. Now, those killings were discovered on Saturday, and then they found him on Friday. Sunday dead as well. We've just been talking about this. Well, it turns out, Robes, that killing happened on Saturday out there on the West Coast. This one we're talking about now happened the very next day, Sunday. So to your point, Robes, this was absolutely back-to-back family annihilation murders that happened in this country. Five dead on one day, eight Dead at a family dinner. You can only imagine that.
00:02:18
Speaker 3: Sunday dinner. Sunday family dinner.
00:02:20
Speaker 2: It's something that so many families around this country have that weekly meeting where they know this is where they come together. And this one happened, again, similar area of the country.
00:02:32
Speaker 3: Billings, Montana. Gorgeous heartland of America.
00:02:36
Speaker 2: And yes, at 9-1-1, sorry, at 6 p.m., there is a 9-1-1 call. And they can hear gunfire in the background, the 9-1-1 operator can.
00:02:49
Speaker 1: And Robes, the terrifying part, at least the most terrifying, look, this is all horrific. Robes, they hear gunfire when the 9-1-1 call is placed. They say police don't get on the scene until another 10 or 11 minutes later. They still hear gunfire.
00:03:05
Speaker 3: My goodness.
00:03:06
Speaker 1: Bro, this is an ongoing assault in that house, it sounds like. If they're still hearing gunfire and people still are being shot and killed over a span of that time. Bro, this is horrific stuff. So yes, police get there and apparently they say this guy was trying to get away. He was in the backyard. They end up getting him, but at that point he'd already sustained a self-inflicted gunshot wound. They get him to the hospital. He does die later. Now, to add to all this, Robes, as they're there, House goes up in flames.
00:03:35
Speaker 3: Set the house on fire.
00:03:36
Speaker 2: Again, this latest sad familicide mass shooting ended with fire. We see this oftentimes.
00:03:46
Speaker 1: Was that Karolkowicz?
00:03:48
Speaker 3: Yes, in Michigan. He did the same thing.
00:03:50
Speaker 2: And I go back to even Paul Canero a few years back where we just watched his trial where he massacred his brother's entire family, including his young niece and nephew.
00:03:59
Speaker 3: And then, yes, set the house on fire.
00:04:02
Speaker 1: To try to cover the trial. Didn't he set his home on fire or something?
00:04:05
Speaker 2: He did set his own home on fire to act as if his family was also being targeted by his other brother. That was a deflection completely in terms of trying to distance himself from the atrocity that he had just committed. But in these cases, those were men, it's interesting, the ones that we hear a lot about because they go to trial, because they survived, because the men didn't want to die.
00:04:26
Speaker 3: They just wanted to wipe out their family.
00:04:28
Speaker 2: In all of these recent ones we've seen, this summer at least, The men have all killed themselves in the end as well. So perhaps they don't get the same kind of billing, the same kind of attention because we're not fixated on it with a trial or with someone being held accountable because in these cases, everyone dies.
00:04:47
Speaker 3: People forget. It goes away.
00:04:49
Speaker 1: We want to move on. We're not trying to examine and understand. We don't have a trial to watch on TV every day to hear people explain possible mental health issues, to explain... what was going on in this person's life, why he did it, and just put all the pieces together. Rose, we need to put the pieces together immediately. Eight people now are dead. Eight are dead. Again, you can literally say once the smoke clears, they couldn't get in there and start to process the scene. This is a mess of a scene they're dealing with. They say they'll be on site for several more days, but as we record this on Wednesday, this all happened on Sunday night. Four adults, four kids dead in that home. Who are they? A mother? Her four kids, those kids' grandparents, and those kids' great-grandmother. The ages of those kids, this always robs our... A lot of these cases, I can remember how old the kids were, like right off the top of my head.
00:05:46
Speaker 2: Because it leaves such a sad mark on your heart to imagine the ability of anyone killing children. And so the kids' ages in this Billings, Montana massacre, 15, 13... 12, and 7.
00:06:04
Speaker 1: Those were all his nieces and nephews. All his nieces and nephews. So yes, the mom he killed apparently is his sister. So he killed his own sister. He killed his own parents, according to police. And he killed his own grandmother in addition to his nieces and nephews. What the actual hell. Now, you just, as we were going, right before we recorded, you sank in your chair. Because again, as horrible as these things are, there's still an added detail. Yeah, 12-year-old girl died. But she's also the reason they even knew this was going on.
00:06:40
Speaker 2: This just, I don't know why, the whole thing's obviously horrific and tragic, but this just breaks my heart to hear this detail that this 12-year-old girl sees her uncle shooting her family and has the wherewithal to be able to call 911 to get help. And again, that's that call where the Authorities heard gunshots in the background. That 12-year-old girl ended up being shot and killed by her uncle.
00:07:03
Speaker 3: She tried to get help.
00:07:05
Speaker 2: It just wasn't in time to save her life. That, for me, just makes you feel sick.
00:07:12
Speaker 1: We've got to figure this out because the idea, Robes, of shooting into a crowd and a kid gets hit is different from chasing a kid down who was on the phone with 911. He had to go find her, Robes. He had to seek her out to kill her because we know from this 911 call she was breathing just fine.
00:07:31
Speaker 3: She was alive. And she was trying to get help for her family.
00:07:35
Speaker 2: And by the way, you mentioned he killed his sister, his four nieces and nephews, his own parents, and then his grandmother who he killed. I think this is also an important detail. 90 years old and in a damn wheelchair.
00:07:50
Speaker 3: You shoot... Your grandmother, your 90-year-old grandmother who is in a wheelchair.
00:07:56
Speaker 1: No way she can sleep.
00:07:57
Speaker 2: What the actual, like in some of these cases, we're talking about these men shooting the pets, like helpless, defenseless, and obviously a seven-year-old, a 12-year-old little girl.
00:08:10
Speaker 3: Like these are just like inexplicable.
00:08:13
Speaker 2: Like if you have rage against your family, you have mental issues, I don't, know how you then turn that.
00:08:21
Speaker 3: Rage to innocent children. I don't understand. Or a helpless 90-year-old woman who's the reason why you even exist. I cannot understand.
00:08:33
Speaker 1: We've got to figure this out. Something is going on. In a lot of these cases, Rob, there is no history of domestic violence. There is no criminal history of any kind. In a lot of cases, these guys are college educated. A lot of times, they are upstanding members of the community. And in other cases... which has been suggested by some family members, there was robed, in this case, some mental illness.
00:08:52
Speaker 2: Yes, and some red flags, too, because some family members, at least the ex-husband of the sister, has spoken out already and said there were plenty of red flags that many people spoke out and no one did.
00:09:06
Speaker 3: Anything about it.
00:09:06
Speaker 2: But we know this was a 44-year-old man. His name was Alan Smith, identified by family members, right? So police haven't officially released his name. But the... The reporting is that his parents told him he had to move out because of these red flags, because he was displaying certain behaviors that were concerning.
00:09:26
Speaker 3: And so, look, they said, you got to leave. You got to go. And that was the catalyst, apparently, that set him off.
00:09:35
Speaker 1: And in all of these cases, there often is some triggering event. There's a breakup. There's a move in this particular case. There's a divorce that's going on. Somebody lost a job. But there's something that breaks the reality. Of what those people have known. And who knows? But it goes in line, though, Robes. What I'm saying is it goes in line with what other people have identified as risk factors or warning signs. We need warning signs before, right? They have lists of warning signs for school shooters, what to look out for. Do we need to do this now?
00:10:06
Speaker 3: I think so.
00:10:07
Speaker 2: At this point, look, and I think a lot of this are disgruntled men. Either they've been, yes, broken up with, told to move out. This man was described by family members as someone who was unable to hold down a job, moved in with his parents. His sister relocated to the state. He moves along with them, but One of the things they said is he spent nearly all day, 24-7, alone in his room at the computer.
00:10:33
Speaker 3: But look, that could describe a lot of people.
00:10:36
Speaker 2: How do you know the difference between someone who has this in them, has this potential to horrific, unthinkable, violent tendencies, to be able to turn the gun on your own family members, on your own nieces and nephews, because you are frustrated with your life?
00:10:55
Speaker 1: Yeah. The only thing, illness. What's the cutoff, Robes? How fine is that line between illness and evil? What is that line? Because it's hard, Robes. I do not understand. What was the one, the Canero you just mentioned?
00:11:14
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:11:15
Speaker 1: We saw him sit in that courtroom, right? Perfectly looking, normal guy. You hear things described how that man can stab his niece, which was how old was she?
00:11:24
Speaker 3: She was seven.
00:11:25
Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. How many times?
00:11:28
Speaker 3: Like dozens and dozens. Like it was brutal.
00:11:32
Speaker 1: Something is going on. I can't just look at him and say, that's a bad guy. I look and go, what is in his head? What is the illness? What have we got to figure out? Robes. You just can't do that to a kid.
00:11:43
Speaker 2: No.
00:11:44
Speaker 1: You can't do that to a kid.
00:11:45
Speaker 2: I don't think that, I think there has to be some underlying mental condition, whether it's sociopath, psychopath, uh, schizophrenic.
00:11:56
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is, but we need to do better. I mean, we've talked plenty about our mental health system and our mental health crisis.
00:12:03
Speaker 2: And when you think about active school shooters, it's the same thing. What sets off a young boy? Look, plenty of people have been bullied, and I'm not trying to minimize that experience. With all the people who've been bullied in this world, the vast majority don't do anything violent in retaliation and certainly don't pick up a gun and indiscriminately shoot at people. And the scary thing about these familicide, these mass murders we've been seeing this summer, these aren't indiscriminate. This isn't just shooting at a crowd. That's awful and hard to get your head around.
00:12:35
Speaker 3: This is specific and targeted and unwarranted.
00:12:40
Speaker 2: Like just because someone tells you you have to move out just because someone doesn't want to be in a relationship with you anymore.
00:12:45
Speaker 3: That happens every single day to people as well.
00:12:48
Speaker 1: Well, what seems like is happening every single day are these killings, baby. Um, Because everywhere, any literature you read, Robes, often says there's not a lot that's known about these because they're so extremely rare. Like they say this in almost all of them. They're just rare. They're rare. They're rare. Well, folks, there have been at least nine, nine of them since June 1st. Robes, we have the list. And here's the thing. We actually forgot some or didn't even notice them because they didn't rise to a certain level. And in some of them, Brobes, the shooter did survive. Stay here, folks. We will explain what has been and list for you what has been an incredibly deadly summer.
00:13:42
Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ. I honestly cannot believe we're back with another episode talking about another Family annihilation, another familicide.
00:13:54
Speaker 1: Eight, baby.
00:13:56
Speaker 2: This is unacceptable, and we have to start talking about it because we have to recognize it. I think, look, we don't, a lot, I was even saying this on Good Morning America when we were in a morning news program. There were a lot of stories, and I understand where our producers would say that's just too sad.
00:14:14
Speaker 3: We can't tell that story. People don't want to hear about that when they're eating their cereal.
00:14:18
Speaker 2: And I get that. I understand that. But at a certain point, if you turn your ears and your eyes away from what's happening because you don't want to hear about it, you can't stomach it because it's too hard to hear, then we allow it to continue. We have to talk about it. We have to acknowledge it. We have to report it. We have to show people what's happening in order to stop it.
00:14:41
Speaker 1: So this is in our face now. Like it's becoming to a point you don't have a choice but to pay attention to it. You don't have a choice. So familicide, family annihilation, those are the two terms that it goes by. Again, we couldn't believe. We said it on the podcast not too long ago, familicide. I don't know if that's going to become a thing.
00:14:59
Speaker 2: It's scary to think that it has.
00:15:03
Speaker 1: It's going to be a part of our language now. School shootings, familicide, family annihilation, those are going to become things. a part of our conversation, a part of our regular speech, I guess, Robes. We said there were a bunch, and there was a database. I went back, Robes, and I'm collecting them. I said, yeah, I know that one, know that one. Then I said, holy shit, I didn't even, I missed this one. Oh, crap, I missed that one. Robes, there are several in here that were, for whatever reason, below the radar for some reason.
00:15:30
Speaker 2: And that's scary and sad, too, that it, again, I think a lot of times it's just, unless there's some distinctive detail that makes it interesting. And perhaps this latest one out of Billings, Montana, you have a 12-year-old girl who was able to call 911 who ended up being shot and killed anyway. It's almost like you have to have these nuggets where a newsroom or a publication, it will go national beyond the local news because you almost need something that distinguishes it from the others for it to make national headlines.
00:16:01
Speaker 1: Okay. Not that we've watched everything, but we have been Working essentially as of this recording about six hours this morning with multiple TVs around us. Have you seen this covered on television once?
00:16:12
Speaker 3: Not once.
00:16:12
Speaker 2: Damn.
00:16:13
Speaker 1: I didn't think about it until you said it.
00:16:14
Speaker 3: Not once. It's online, for sure.
00:16:17
Speaker 2: But curious, the one that did get a lot of coverage was the father who killed his six kids and his wife in that wealthy suburb of Michigan and set his home on fire. That got national media televised attention. Why? Is it because he was affluent? Because he was the VP of... you know, a, a big organization in a wealthy neighborhood, perhaps that's why, but it is sad to think that a lot of these stories that need attention because we need to be aware of them to prevent them.
00:16:50
Speaker 3: Don't make it out of local news newspapers.
00:16:55
Speaker 1: I think about till this moment, there are eight people who were shot and killed at a family dinner in Billings, Montana. And I haven't seen it spoken about today. Granted Dolly Parton news has dominated, but Rose, I'm looking up. That's, I think it's probably more important than the story I'm seeing right now. But anyway, people can choose to make their decisions about what they want to cover, and that's fine. But to your point, Robes, if we're not aware of this, right, if there's not a lot of conversation about it, we think it's rare, it's not something we should worry about. I don't know how many times we've got to hear eight people killed, including five babies among them, and we start to, hmm, wonder if we should probably start addressing this. This is not just guns. Guns are a part of it. Nobody likes to talk. But If some of these folks didn't have easy access to guns, you can't just pick up a brick and start hitting people over the head.
00:17:45
Speaker 3: It's the fastest way to kill the most amount of people, period.
00:17:48
Speaker 1: But this is not necessarily the main part that anybody wants to talk about when you talk about gun violence. There is something else going on here, Robes.
00:17:56
Speaker 3: Is it because it's too icky and sad?
00:17:59
Speaker 2: Is it because we are desensitized or callous? or just over-talking about mass killings. I just, I don't, I'm trying to figure out why we aren't paying more attention to this.
00:18:15
Speaker 1: A lot of these folks you pointed out are in poor areas of the country. A lot of these folks would be deemed, in newsrooms we've been in, not the people we care about. Okay, yeah, I know it was a four-year-old that died, but yeah, daddy was poor and had some problems. So... Seriously, Rob, you've pointed this out to me, actually. I'm looking at the places, Michigan, New York, Iowa, upstate New York, East St. Louis, Grand Haven, Michigan, Winfield, Kansas, Lake City, Michigan, Forest Grove, Oregon, right?
00:18:48
Speaker 3: A lot of these have rural in front of it. Yes, they do.
00:18:52
Speaker 2: In fact, in the articles, they talk about how it's in a rural community or miles and miles away from the nearest city. So, yes, do people care less because, eh, We know how it goes in these rooms.
00:19:06
Speaker 3: They were off the grid anyway.
00:19:08
Speaker 1: Flyover states, right?
00:19:10
Speaker 3: Flyover states.
00:19:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, this didn't happen in New York. This didn't happen in the Bronx. This didn't happen in a place we in the media care so much about.
00:19:17
Speaker 2: If this happened in L.A., if this happened in New York City, if this happened in Miami, and again, if the family was affluent, if the family had money, if the family was regarded in society... Then we need to understand. Then we need to figure it out. Otherwise, can we just pass this off as uneducated degenerates and who cares anyway? I mean, I know that sounds terrible, but is that how we're treating, when I say we, the media, treating a lot of these cases?
00:19:45
Speaker 1: It's a problem happening to them over there. This isn't our issue. It's happening to them people over in those places. It is. Unfortunately, we have, whoa, Lord, off the top of my head, I can remember conversations being standing in an office with producers, ooh, can't do that. Don't want to do that. And the one that pissed me off had to do with black kids surviving a horrible situation. Ooh, that's just so sad. And they didn't want to cover it.
00:20:14
Speaker 3: It's true.
00:20:14
Speaker 2: And also the level, I mean, I hate to say this, but this is just true, the level of attractiveness of either the victims or the perpetrator. If any of them are really, really, really good looking, it will make television news.
00:20:27
Speaker 1: Oh, if there's a blonde-haired woman under the age of 45 with blue eyes, put that picture up, baby. Let's go. Yeah, that's how it works, Robes. And we know that, and unfortunately, maybe that is playing into this. But yeah, Muscantin, Iowa, right? Does anybody even, they know where that is? Is anyone sitting in a newsroom, New York newsroom? The answer is no. So we'll go through what we have seen just since June 1st. June 1, Muscantin, Iowa, Ryan McFarland kills six, including his wife and his three kids.
00:20:56
Speaker 2: June 1st, same day in Cheektowago, New York. Salah Mohammed kills four, including his wife and his three kids, who were just four and three years old.
00:21:07
Speaker 1: Two boys, they wear their robes. Then on June 9th, Livonia, Michigan, Gage Wade Pierce kills four people, among them his parents, his brother, and his brother's girlfriend.
00:21:18
Speaker 2: Then on June 23rd, in Mechanicsville, New York, a quadruple murder-suicide. Amy Stedman and Sarah Myers kill four kids via poisoning, and the kids, ages 10, 10... 11, and 13. Mechanicsville, that's not even far from here.
00:21:34
Speaker 1: Oh, is it not?
00:21:35
Speaker 3: No, no.
00:21:36
Speaker 1: Is it upstate?
00:21:37
Speaker 3: I am actually going to look because I have seen it.
00:21:41
Speaker 1: As you're doing that, Amy Stedman and Sarah Myers, those two women involved in this, this was a poisoning, murder, suicide. They are the mother and grandmother of those four kids. a bizarre murder-suicide with poisoning. Did you see where is it?
00:21:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's on the banks of the Hudson, about 20 miles north of Albany. Look, it is off the grid, so to speak, but I just have traveled up in that area, and I've seen the signs for Mechanicsville.
00:22:03
Speaker 3: I mean, it's certainly a town that I've heard of before.
00:22:07
Speaker 1: So that was June 23rd. Then on July 12th, in East St. Louis, a boy and a girl, ages 16 and 15, kill five. All of them were members of the girl's family.
00:22:18
Speaker 2: What?
00:22:19
Speaker 3: I didn't hear about that.
00:22:21
Speaker 2: July 24th, Grand Haven, Michigan. This is the one that made the national news. Christopher Karolkowicz.
00:22:28
Speaker 3: Now you can do it and I can't.
00:22:30
Speaker 2: Karolkowicz.
00:22:30
Speaker 1: Because I've messed it up so much.
00:22:32
Speaker 3: Christopher Karolkowicz killed six kids.
00:22:34
Speaker 1: Was it seven or seven? Okay, seven total?
00:22:36
Speaker 3: And his wife.
00:22:37
Speaker 1: Okay.
00:22:38
Speaker 3: I believe it was eight total because he died as well.
00:22:41
Speaker 2: So I remember firefighters found eight dead, including him, his wife, and his six kids.
00:22:47
Speaker 3: They were ages 5 to 15, correct?
00:22:48
Speaker 1: That is right, yep. Then August 11th, this was in Winfield, Ronald Williams Sr. This was in Winfield, Kansas. He kills five, among them a woman and his four kids. The ages on these kids were 3, 5, 7, and 9. Wow, and then.
00:23:05
Speaker 2: Three days later, August 14th, in Lake City, Michigan, Chad Hickman kills six, including his half-sister, her dad, a friend.
00:23:13
Speaker 3: Just a terrible situation. But again, Lake City, a lot of Michigan.
00:23:17
Speaker 1: And then finally, the one we just saw, August 22nd, in Forest Grove, Oregon, Benjamin Parker kills five. His girlfriend, girlfriend's mom, girlfriend's grandma, his girlfriend's friend, and that friend's boyfriend. And then he ultimately killed himself. Robes. This is, we just reeled off nine. Oh, go ahead, baby.
00:23:35
Speaker 2: Oh, no, I was going to say, and this was interesting because you and I both realized, wait, the Minneapolis story that we covered just a week or two ago where the father killed his mother, his wife, and his daughter, seven-year-old daughter, with a screwdriver in the family's daycare, that didn't even rise to count because you have to have killed four or more for it to be included in this list. But if you included, like, he killed his entire family. Turns out there were only three of them, and then his own death made it four. But you have to kill four or more in order to be included in this list, and we already have nine since June 1st.
00:24:12
Speaker 1: What is happening? The list we just showed, that we just gave, those nine, that's 45 people, plus the eight that just died in this most recent. What's that? Number four means that's 53. 24 kids have died in school shootings this year. In the U.S.
00:24:28
Speaker 2: That's a good thing that it's lower. It's still bad that that many kids, we should have zero kids dying in school shootings.
00:24:33
Speaker 1: How much emphasis do we put on that now? After Columbine, we were caught off guard. Like, what the hell? Then it became a thing. We got metal detectors. We got different ways of monitoring. We know if we see a problem, we report a problem.
00:24:47
Speaker 2: Right.
00:24:47
Speaker 1: Took us a while, but we're better on that. Robes, we have double the number of family members killed by a member of their own family than we do have kids getting shot and killed in schools that we consider this huge problem. We got to.
00:25:02
Speaker 3: I know.
00:25:02
Speaker 2: And it feels like it's a more difficult task because you've got feelings and emotions and you don't want to assume the worst of a family member. It's not some evil outsider who's coming in with a With an automatic rifle, it's your brother, it's your father, it's your husband, and so you don't want to assume they're capable. That's what complicates this even further.
00:25:27
Speaker 1: But this is, ropes, just a hot summer, a weird stretch. I don't know what's going on.
00:25:34
Speaker 2: We hope it's not something that continues, and maybe this is just an anomaly. But right now, unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be, and we have to address it. We have to discuss it.
00:25:44
Speaker 1: You said anomaly. We saw from the Associated Press that's keeping up with a tally of mass shootings this year. They said there have been 22 in the country. Fifteen of them are family members killing other family members. Robes, they say that is a higher percent, way higher. It's usually somewhere around 50%. 15 out of the 22 is a problem. And we could call it an anomaly, or is it a trend?
00:26:13
Speaker 3: Right now, it appears to be a trend.
00:26:14
Speaker 2: Certainly a trend this summer that we hope ends soon, but we will, of course, keep our eye on that. We always appreciate you listening to us, everyone. I'm Amy Robach, alongside TJ Holmes.
00:26:24
Speaker 3: We'll talk soon.
Speaker 1: Hey there folks, it is Wednesday, August 26th. We cannot believe we are doing another episode on this. And once again, we have a story of a man wiping out his family. This time, he has killed eight. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. At what point, Robes, are we all gonna start recognizing and seeing this differently? Because familicide, or family annihilation, Robes, at least in the past few months, has been an epidemic.
00:00:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, and babe, we've been talking about this now weekly, and now it feels like daily over the past.
00:00:43
Speaker 3: Couple of months. And each day, our jaw drops.
00:00:48
Speaker 2: Our stomachs churn as we see another very eerily similar mass killing happening. And they all seem to bear the same hallmarks. And I feel like this is a wake-up call. It's been a wake-up call for some time. And I don't know at what point it rises to the level where we actually start talking about this in a real way.
00:01:10
Speaker 3: This is serious. This is school shooting serious.
00:01:14
Speaker 1: And there have been far more people who have died at the hands of their family members in a mass shooting this year and even in the past three months than we've had students killed on campuses this year because of shootings. Robes, and you said it seemed like daily. It was yesterday, Robes. We had just gotten the word about the guy out of Portland in the Washington area. Oregon and Washington State. Well, he killed five, and he killed himself. And he took out what was his girlfriend and his girlfriend's mom. He killed five, wiped them out. We just got word about that. Now, those killings were discovered on Saturday, and then they found him on Friday. Sunday dead as well. We've just been talking about this. Well, it turns out, Robes, that killing happened on Saturday out there on the West Coast. This one we're talking about now happened the very next day, Sunday. So to your point, Robes, this was absolutely back-to-back family annihilation murders that happened in this country. Five dead on one day, eight Dead at a family dinner. You can only imagine that.
00:02:18
Speaker 3: Sunday dinner. Sunday family dinner.
00:02:20
Speaker 2: It's something that so many families around this country have that weekly meeting where they know this is where they come together. And this one happened, again, similar area of the country.
00:02:32
Speaker 3: Billings, Montana. Gorgeous heartland of America.
00:02:36
Speaker 2: And yes, at 9-1-1, sorry, at 6 p.m., there is a 9-1-1 call. And they can hear gunfire in the background, the 9-1-1 operator can.
00:02:49
Speaker 1: And Robes, the terrifying part, at least the most terrifying, look, this is all horrific. Robes, they hear gunfire when the 9-1-1 call is placed. They say police don't get on the scene until another 10 or 11 minutes later. They still hear gunfire.
00:03:05
Speaker 3: My goodness.
00:03:06
Speaker 1: Bro, this is an ongoing assault in that house, it sounds like. If they're still hearing gunfire and people still are being shot and killed over a span of that time. Bro, this is horrific stuff. So yes, police get there and apparently they say this guy was trying to get away. He was in the backyard. They end up getting him, but at that point he'd already sustained a self-inflicted gunshot wound. They get him to the hospital. He does die later. Now, to add to all this, Robes, as they're there, House goes up in flames.
00:03:35
Speaker 3: Set the house on fire.
00:03:36
Speaker 2: Again, this latest sad familicide mass shooting ended with fire. We see this oftentimes.
00:03:46
Speaker 1: Was that Karolkowicz?
00:03:48
Speaker 3: Yes, in Michigan. He did the same thing.
00:03:50
Speaker 2: And I go back to even Paul Canero a few years back where we just watched his trial where he massacred his brother's entire family, including his young niece and nephew.
00:03:59
Speaker 3: And then, yes, set the house on fire.
00:04:02
Speaker 1: To try to cover the trial. Didn't he set his home on fire or something?
00:04:05
Speaker 2: He did set his own home on fire to act as if his family was also being targeted by his other brother. That was a deflection completely in terms of trying to distance himself from the atrocity that he had just committed. But in these cases, those were men, it's interesting, the ones that we hear a lot about because they go to trial, because they survived, because the men didn't want to die.
00:04:26
Speaker 3: They just wanted to wipe out their family.
00:04:28
Speaker 2: In all of these recent ones we've seen, this summer at least, The men have all killed themselves in the end as well. So perhaps they don't get the same kind of billing, the same kind of attention because we're not fixated on it with a trial or with someone being held accountable because in these cases, everyone dies.
00:04:47
Speaker 3: People forget. It goes away.
00:04:49
Speaker 1: We want to move on. We're not trying to examine and understand. We don't have a trial to watch on TV every day to hear people explain possible mental health issues, to explain... what was going on in this person's life, why he did it, and just put all the pieces together. Rose, we need to put the pieces together immediately. Eight people now are dead. Eight are dead. Again, you can literally say once the smoke clears, they couldn't get in there and start to process the scene. This is a mess of a scene they're dealing with. They say they'll be on site for several more days, but as we record this on Wednesday, this all happened on Sunday night. Four adults, four kids dead in that home. Who are they? A mother? Her four kids, those kids' grandparents, and those kids' great-grandmother. The ages of those kids, this always robs our... A lot of these cases, I can remember how old the kids were, like right off the top of my head.
00:05:46
Speaker 2: Because it leaves such a sad mark on your heart to imagine the ability of anyone killing children. And so the kids' ages in this Billings, Montana massacre, 15, 13... 12, and 7.
00:06:04
Speaker 1: Those were all his nieces and nephews. All his nieces and nephews. So yes, the mom he killed apparently is his sister. So he killed his own sister. He killed his own parents, according to police. And he killed his own grandmother in addition to his nieces and nephews. What the actual hell. Now, you just, as we were going, right before we recorded, you sank in your chair. Because again, as horrible as these things are, there's still an added detail. Yeah, 12-year-old girl died. But she's also the reason they even knew this was going on.
00:06:40
Speaker 2: This just, I don't know why, the whole thing's obviously horrific and tragic, but this just breaks my heart to hear this detail that this 12-year-old girl sees her uncle shooting her family and has the wherewithal to be able to call 911 to get help. And again, that's that call where the Authorities heard gunshots in the background. That 12-year-old girl ended up being shot and killed by her uncle.
00:07:03
Speaker 3: She tried to get help.
00:07:05
Speaker 2: It just wasn't in time to save her life. That, for me, just makes you feel sick.
00:07:12
Speaker 1: We've got to figure this out because the idea, Robes, of shooting into a crowd and a kid gets hit is different from chasing a kid down who was on the phone with 911. He had to go find her, Robes. He had to seek her out to kill her because we know from this 911 call she was breathing just fine.
00:07:31
Speaker 3: She was alive. And she was trying to get help for her family.
00:07:35
Speaker 2: And by the way, you mentioned he killed his sister, his four nieces and nephews, his own parents, and then his grandmother who he killed. I think this is also an important detail. 90 years old and in a damn wheelchair.
00:07:50
Speaker 3: You shoot... Your grandmother, your 90-year-old grandmother who is in a wheelchair.
00:07:56
Speaker 1: No way she can sleep.
00:07:57
Speaker 2: What the actual, like in some of these cases, we're talking about these men shooting the pets, like helpless, defenseless, and obviously a seven-year-old, a 12-year-old little girl.
00:08:10
Speaker 3: Like these are just like inexplicable.
00:08:13
Speaker 2: Like if you have rage against your family, you have mental issues, I don't, know how you then turn that.
00:08:21
Speaker 3: Rage to innocent children. I don't understand. Or a helpless 90-year-old woman who's the reason why you even exist. I cannot understand.
00:08:33
Speaker 1: We've got to figure this out. Something is going on. In a lot of these cases, Rob, there is no history of domestic violence. There is no criminal history of any kind. In a lot of cases, these guys are college educated. A lot of times, they are upstanding members of the community. And in other cases... which has been suggested by some family members, there was robed, in this case, some mental illness.
00:08:52
Speaker 2: Yes, and some red flags, too, because some family members, at least the ex-husband of the sister, has spoken out already and said there were plenty of red flags that many people spoke out and no one did.
00:09:06
Speaker 3: Anything about it.
00:09:06
Speaker 2: But we know this was a 44-year-old man. His name was Alan Smith, identified by family members, right? So police haven't officially released his name. But the... The reporting is that his parents told him he had to move out because of these red flags, because he was displaying certain behaviors that were concerning.
00:09:26
Speaker 3: And so, look, they said, you got to leave. You got to go. And that was the catalyst, apparently, that set him off.
00:09:35
Speaker 1: And in all of these cases, there often is some triggering event. There's a breakup. There's a move in this particular case. There's a divorce that's going on. Somebody lost a job. But there's something that breaks the reality. Of what those people have known. And who knows? But it goes in line, though, Robes. What I'm saying is it goes in line with what other people have identified as risk factors or warning signs. We need warning signs before, right? They have lists of warning signs for school shooters, what to look out for. Do we need to do this now?
00:10:06
Speaker 3: I think so.
00:10:07
Speaker 2: At this point, look, and I think a lot of this are disgruntled men. Either they've been, yes, broken up with, told to move out. This man was described by family members as someone who was unable to hold down a job, moved in with his parents. His sister relocated to the state. He moves along with them, but One of the things they said is he spent nearly all day, 24-7, alone in his room at the computer.
00:10:33
Speaker 3: But look, that could describe a lot of people.
00:10:36
Speaker 2: How do you know the difference between someone who has this in them, has this potential to horrific, unthinkable, violent tendencies, to be able to turn the gun on your own family members, on your own nieces and nephews, because you are frustrated with your life?
00:10:55
Speaker 1: Yeah. The only thing, illness. What's the cutoff, Robes? How fine is that line between illness and evil? What is that line? Because it's hard, Robes. I do not understand. What was the one, the Canero you just mentioned?
00:11:14
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:11:15
Speaker 1: We saw him sit in that courtroom, right? Perfectly looking, normal guy. You hear things described how that man can stab his niece, which was how old was she?
00:11:24
Speaker 3: She was seven.
00:11:25
Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. How many times?
00:11:28
Speaker 3: Like dozens and dozens. Like it was brutal.
00:11:32
Speaker 1: Something is going on. I can't just look at him and say, that's a bad guy. I look and go, what is in his head? What is the illness? What have we got to figure out? Robes. You just can't do that to a kid.
00:11:43
Speaker 2: No.
00:11:44
Speaker 1: You can't do that to a kid.
00:11:45
Speaker 2: I don't think that, I think there has to be some underlying mental condition, whether it's sociopath, psychopath, uh, schizophrenic.
00:11:56
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is, but we need to do better. I mean, we've talked plenty about our mental health system and our mental health crisis.
00:12:03
Speaker 2: And when you think about active school shooters, it's the same thing. What sets off a young boy? Look, plenty of people have been bullied, and I'm not trying to minimize that experience. With all the people who've been bullied in this world, the vast majority don't do anything violent in retaliation and certainly don't pick up a gun and indiscriminately shoot at people. And the scary thing about these familicide, these mass murders we've been seeing this summer, these aren't indiscriminate. This isn't just shooting at a crowd. That's awful and hard to get your head around.
00:12:35
Speaker 3: This is specific and targeted and unwarranted.
00:12:40
Speaker 2: Like just because someone tells you you have to move out just because someone doesn't want to be in a relationship with you anymore.
00:12:45
Speaker 3: That happens every single day to people as well.
00:12:48
Speaker 1: Well, what seems like is happening every single day are these killings, baby. Um, Because everywhere, any literature you read, Robes, often says there's not a lot that's known about these because they're so extremely rare. Like they say this in almost all of them. They're just rare. They're rare. They're rare. Well, folks, there have been at least nine, nine of them since June 1st. Robes, we have the list. And here's the thing. We actually forgot some or didn't even notice them because they didn't rise to a certain level. And in some of them, Brobes, the shooter did survive. Stay here, folks. We will explain what has been and list for you what has been an incredibly deadly summer.
00:13:42
Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ. I honestly cannot believe we're back with another episode talking about another Family annihilation, another familicide.
00:13:54
Speaker 1: Eight, baby.
00:13:56
Speaker 2: This is unacceptable, and we have to start talking about it because we have to recognize it. I think, look, we don't, a lot, I was even saying this on Good Morning America when we were in a morning news program. There were a lot of stories, and I understand where our producers would say that's just too sad.
00:14:14
Speaker 3: We can't tell that story. People don't want to hear about that when they're eating their cereal.
00:14:18
Speaker 2: And I get that. I understand that. But at a certain point, if you turn your ears and your eyes away from what's happening because you don't want to hear about it, you can't stomach it because it's too hard to hear, then we allow it to continue. We have to talk about it. We have to acknowledge it. We have to report it. We have to show people what's happening in order to stop it.
00:14:41
Speaker 1: So this is in our face now. Like it's becoming to a point you don't have a choice but to pay attention to it. You don't have a choice. So familicide, family annihilation, those are the two terms that it goes by. Again, we couldn't believe. We said it on the podcast not too long ago, familicide. I don't know if that's going to become a thing.
00:14:59
Speaker 2: It's scary to think that it has.
00:15:03
Speaker 1: It's going to be a part of our language now. School shootings, familicide, family annihilation, those are going to become things. a part of our conversation, a part of our regular speech, I guess, Robes. We said there were a bunch, and there was a database. I went back, Robes, and I'm collecting them. I said, yeah, I know that one, know that one. Then I said, holy shit, I didn't even, I missed this one. Oh, crap, I missed that one. Robes, there are several in here that were, for whatever reason, below the radar for some reason.
00:15:30
Speaker 2: And that's scary and sad, too, that it, again, I think a lot of times it's just, unless there's some distinctive detail that makes it interesting. And perhaps this latest one out of Billings, Montana, you have a 12-year-old girl who was able to call 911 who ended up being shot and killed anyway. It's almost like you have to have these nuggets where a newsroom or a publication, it will go national beyond the local news because you almost need something that distinguishes it from the others for it to make national headlines.
00:16:01
Speaker 1: Okay. Not that we've watched everything, but we have been Working essentially as of this recording about six hours this morning with multiple TVs around us. Have you seen this covered on television once?
00:16:12
Speaker 3: Not once.
00:16:12
Speaker 2: Damn.
00:16:13
Speaker 1: I didn't think about it until you said it.
00:16:14
Speaker 3: Not once. It's online, for sure.
00:16:17
Speaker 2: But curious, the one that did get a lot of coverage was the father who killed his six kids and his wife in that wealthy suburb of Michigan and set his home on fire. That got national media televised attention. Why? Is it because he was affluent? Because he was the VP of... you know, a, a big organization in a wealthy neighborhood, perhaps that's why, but it is sad to think that a lot of these stories that need attention because we need to be aware of them to prevent them.
00:16:50
Speaker 3: Don't make it out of local news newspapers.
00:16:55
Speaker 1: I think about till this moment, there are eight people who were shot and killed at a family dinner in Billings, Montana. And I haven't seen it spoken about today. Granted Dolly Parton news has dominated, but Rose, I'm looking up. That's, I think it's probably more important than the story I'm seeing right now. But anyway, people can choose to make their decisions about what they want to cover, and that's fine. But to your point, Robes, if we're not aware of this, right, if there's not a lot of conversation about it, we think it's rare, it's not something we should worry about. I don't know how many times we've got to hear eight people killed, including five babies among them, and we start to, hmm, wonder if we should probably start addressing this. This is not just guns. Guns are a part of it. Nobody likes to talk. But If some of these folks didn't have easy access to guns, you can't just pick up a brick and start hitting people over the head.
00:17:45
Speaker 3: It's the fastest way to kill the most amount of people, period.
00:17:48
Speaker 1: But this is not necessarily the main part that anybody wants to talk about when you talk about gun violence. There is something else going on here, Robes.
00:17:56
Speaker 3: Is it because it's too icky and sad?
00:17:59
Speaker 2: Is it because we are desensitized or callous? or just over-talking about mass killings. I just, I don't, I'm trying to figure out why we aren't paying more attention to this.
00:18:15
Speaker 1: A lot of these folks you pointed out are in poor areas of the country. A lot of these folks would be deemed, in newsrooms we've been in, not the people we care about. Okay, yeah, I know it was a four-year-old that died, but yeah, daddy was poor and had some problems. So... Seriously, Rob, you've pointed this out to me, actually. I'm looking at the places, Michigan, New York, Iowa, upstate New York, East St. Louis, Grand Haven, Michigan, Winfield, Kansas, Lake City, Michigan, Forest Grove, Oregon, right?
00:18:48
Speaker 3: A lot of these have rural in front of it. Yes, they do.
00:18:52
Speaker 2: In fact, in the articles, they talk about how it's in a rural community or miles and miles away from the nearest city. So, yes, do people care less because, eh, We know how it goes in these rooms.
00:19:06
Speaker 3: They were off the grid anyway.
00:19:08
Speaker 1: Flyover states, right?
00:19:10
Speaker 3: Flyover states.
00:19:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, this didn't happen in New York. This didn't happen in the Bronx. This didn't happen in a place we in the media care so much about.
00:19:17
Speaker 2: If this happened in L.A., if this happened in New York City, if this happened in Miami, and again, if the family was affluent, if the family had money, if the family was regarded in society... Then we need to understand. Then we need to figure it out. Otherwise, can we just pass this off as uneducated degenerates and who cares anyway? I mean, I know that sounds terrible, but is that how we're treating, when I say we, the media, treating a lot of these cases?
00:19:45
Speaker 1: It's a problem happening to them over there. This isn't our issue. It's happening to them people over in those places. It is. Unfortunately, we have, whoa, Lord, off the top of my head, I can remember conversations being standing in an office with producers, ooh, can't do that. Don't want to do that. And the one that pissed me off had to do with black kids surviving a horrible situation. Ooh, that's just so sad. And they didn't want to cover it.
00:20:14
Speaker 3: It's true.
00:20:14
Speaker 2: And also the level, I mean, I hate to say this, but this is just true, the level of attractiveness of either the victims or the perpetrator. If any of them are really, really, really good looking, it will make television news.
00:20:27
Speaker 1: Oh, if there's a blonde-haired woman under the age of 45 with blue eyes, put that picture up, baby. Let's go. Yeah, that's how it works, Robes. And we know that, and unfortunately, maybe that is playing into this. But yeah, Muscantin, Iowa, right? Does anybody even, they know where that is? Is anyone sitting in a newsroom, New York newsroom? The answer is no. So we'll go through what we have seen just since June 1st. June 1, Muscantin, Iowa, Ryan McFarland kills six, including his wife and his three kids.
00:20:56
Speaker 2: June 1st, same day in Cheektowago, New York. Salah Mohammed kills four, including his wife and his three kids, who were just four and three years old.
00:21:07
Speaker 1: Two boys, they wear their robes. Then on June 9th, Livonia, Michigan, Gage Wade Pierce kills four people, among them his parents, his brother, and his brother's girlfriend.
00:21:18
Speaker 2: Then on June 23rd, in Mechanicsville, New York, a quadruple murder-suicide. Amy Stedman and Sarah Myers kill four kids via poisoning, and the kids, ages 10, 10... 11, and 13. Mechanicsville, that's not even far from here.
00:21:34
Speaker 1: Oh, is it not?
00:21:35
Speaker 3: No, no.
00:21:36
Speaker 1: Is it upstate?
00:21:37
Speaker 3: I am actually going to look because I have seen it.
00:21:41
Speaker 1: As you're doing that, Amy Stedman and Sarah Myers, those two women involved in this, this was a poisoning, murder, suicide. They are the mother and grandmother of those four kids. a bizarre murder-suicide with poisoning. Did you see where is it?
00:21:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's on the banks of the Hudson, about 20 miles north of Albany. Look, it is off the grid, so to speak, but I just have traveled up in that area, and I've seen the signs for Mechanicsville.
00:22:03
Speaker 3: I mean, it's certainly a town that I've heard of before.
00:22:07
Speaker 1: So that was June 23rd. Then on July 12th, in East St. Louis, a boy and a girl, ages 16 and 15, kill five. All of them were members of the girl's family.
00:22:18
Speaker 2: What?
00:22:19
Speaker 3: I didn't hear about that.
00:22:21
Speaker 2: July 24th, Grand Haven, Michigan. This is the one that made the national news. Christopher Karolkowicz.
00:22:28
Speaker 3: Now you can do it and I can't.
00:22:30
Speaker 2: Karolkowicz.
00:22:30
Speaker 1: Because I've messed it up so much.
00:22:32
Speaker 3: Christopher Karolkowicz killed six kids.
00:22:34
Speaker 1: Was it seven or seven? Okay, seven total?
00:22:36
Speaker 3: And his wife.
00:22:37
Speaker 1: Okay.
00:22:38
Speaker 3: I believe it was eight total because he died as well.
00:22:41
Speaker 2: So I remember firefighters found eight dead, including him, his wife, and his six kids.
00:22:47
Speaker 3: They were ages 5 to 15, correct?
00:22:48
Speaker 1: That is right, yep. Then August 11th, this was in Winfield, Ronald Williams Sr. This was in Winfield, Kansas. He kills five, among them a woman and his four kids. The ages on these kids were 3, 5, 7, and 9. Wow, and then.
00:23:05
Speaker 2: Three days later, August 14th, in Lake City, Michigan, Chad Hickman kills six, including his half-sister, her dad, a friend.
00:23:13
Speaker 3: Just a terrible situation. But again, Lake City, a lot of Michigan.
00:23:17
Speaker 1: And then finally, the one we just saw, August 22nd, in Forest Grove, Oregon, Benjamin Parker kills five. His girlfriend, girlfriend's mom, girlfriend's grandma, his girlfriend's friend, and that friend's boyfriend. And then he ultimately killed himself. Robes. This is, we just reeled off nine. Oh, go ahead, baby.
00:23:35
Speaker 2: Oh, no, I was going to say, and this was interesting because you and I both realized, wait, the Minneapolis story that we covered just a week or two ago where the father killed his mother, his wife, and his daughter, seven-year-old daughter, with a screwdriver in the family's daycare, that didn't even rise to count because you have to have killed four or more for it to be included in this list. But if you included, like, he killed his entire family. Turns out there were only three of them, and then his own death made it four. But you have to kill four or more in order to be included in this list, and we already have nine since June 1st.
00:24:12
Speaker 1: What is happening? The list we just showed, that we just gave, those nine, that's 45 people, plus the eight that just died in this most recent. What's that? Number four means that's 53. 24 kids have died in school shootings this year. In the U.S.
00:24:28
Speaker 2: That's a good thing that it's lower. It's still bad that that many kids, we should have zero kids dying in school shootings.
00:24:33
Speaker 1: How much emphasis do we put on that now? After Columbine, we were caught off guard. Like, what the hell? Then it became a thing. We got metal detectors. We got different ways of monitoring. We know if we see a problem, we report a problem.
00:24:47
Speaker 2: Right.
00:24:47
Speaker 1: Took us a while, but we're better on that. Robes, we have double the number of family members killed by a member of their own family than we do have kids getting shot and killed in schools that we consider this huge problem. We got to.
00:25:02
Speaker 3: I know.
00:25:02
Speaker 2: And it feels like it's a more difficult task because you've got feelings and emotions and you don't want to assume the worst of a family member. It's not some evil outsider who's coming in with a With an automatic rifle, it's your brother, it's your father, it's your husband, and so you don't want to assume they're capable. That's what complicates this even further.
00:25:27
Speaker 1: But this is, ropes, just a hot summer, a weird stretch. I don't know what's going on.
00:25:34
Speaker 2: We hope it's not something that continues, and maybe this is just an anomaly. But right now, unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be, and we have to address it. We have to discuss it.
00:25:44
Speaker 1: You said anomaly. We saw from the Associated Press that's keeping up with a tally of mass shootings this year. They said there have been 22 in the country. Fifteen of them are family members killing other family members. Robes, they say that is a higher percent, way higher. It's usually somewhere around 50%. 15 out of the 22 is a problem. And we could call it an anomaly, or is it a trend?
00:26:13
Speaker 3: Right now, it appears to be a trend.
00:26:14
Speaker 2: Certainly a trend this summer that we hope ends soon, but we will, of course, keep our eye on that. We always appreciate you listening to us, everyone. I'm Amy Robach, alongside TJ Holmes.
00:26:24
Speaker 3: We'll talk soon.