Jan. 5, 2026
Maduro to Judge: "I'm a Decent Man. I am Still The President of My Country"
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RSS Feed Ousted President Nicolás Maduro and his wife Cilia Flores made their first court appearance in Manhattan this morning to face narco-terrorism, drug and weapons charges. They two pleaded not guilty, but they managed to get in a few more words than that. While this fascinating scene was unfolding inside the courtroom, two separate factions of demonstrators surrounded the courthouse, some thanking President Trump and some wanting Maduro set free.
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00:00:11
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks.
00:00:11
Speaker 2: It is Monday, January fifth, and that was a hell of a first court appearance from the now austitt former president of Venezuela, Nicholas Maduro and his wife. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. This is just wrapping up as we are coming on here as of this recording. But as of this recording rose, we should mention that Maduro is still in route back to jail. So this is just happening. I don't know what we were expecting, but I wasn't expecting what we got.
00:00:44
Speaker 1: A few fireworks, it was.
00:00:46
Speaker 3: It was interesting, interesting outside of the court. What was going on.
00:00:49
Speaker 4: He was interesting what was happening inside of the court, and just how quickly it's all taken place from the abduction this weekend that we were all shocked by seeing him and his wife standing there before a federal judge in Lower Manhattan.
00:01:07
Speaker 3: It's surreal.
00:01:08
Speaker 1: Remind I keep messing this up. I asked you earlier.
00:01:10
Speaker 2: It was Friday night into Saturday thing. He was taking a Saturday and Friday night. Friday night into Saturday, so early Saturday morning he went to bed Friday night in Caraka, says the President of Venezuela. He is in our neighborhood today in prison garb making court appearances in the same damn courthouse that Didty's trial took place a matter of months ago. This is why it was.
00:01:34
Speaker 4: Weird to be watching the same entrance that we were waiting to see Diddy and Ditty's family walking out of We've walked by that court a million times when that trial was going on, just to see it all now take place again, but in very different circumstances with much larger implications.
00:01:53
Speaker 1: Let's get you caught up here, folks.
00:01:54
Speaker 2: We were all talking about this earlier, but yes, it's been an extraordinary certainly weekend a few days, but also a few hours. Nicholas Maduro and his wife Cecilia were taken from the MDC, the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, the federal prison and brought over to the Federal Courthouse and Lower Manhattan.
00:02:11
Speaker 1: This was all this morning.
00:02:13
Speaker 2: The court appearance was at noon Eastern time, but they started their journey, and as New Yorkers we kind of understand this. We were looking, why are they leaving so early from Brooklyn at seven o'clock in the morning for a noon appearance, and well, if you live in New York, maybe it makes sense.
00:02:26
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's probably what is it a mile at most probably between those two sites. But yes, there was a helicopter and then there was an armored vehicle, all to avoid perhaps yes, some of the traffic issues allah the Brooklyn Bridge, but also safety concerns. There were a lot of people who were waiting and had been lining up outside of the courthouse just to be a part of this. A lot of folks who are from Venezuela, who traveled actually from parts of the US to be just near where this was all taking place. Some for some against United States dead, but a lot of passionate folks outside that courthouse waiting to see what happened inside.
00:03:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was it did happen inside that same courthouse. They just give you a sense of you're not living in this area. This we're at the very tip of Manhattan, Lower Manhattan, the financial district. But you have, yes, a lot of yes, you got Wall Street and you got all those big companies and money down here, but you have the court system down here. And there was just a little area down here again tip of Manhattan, where this cluster of government buildings are. That is where he made his first court appearance with his wife. We did hear ropes officially what the charges are, and he's facing four pretty serious charges here.
00:03:40
Speaker 4: Yes, the first and perhaps most serious the narco terrorism conspiracy charge. Then there's a cocaine importation conspiracy charge, possession of machine guns and destructive devices, and then conspiracy to possess machine guns and destructive devices. So those are the four charges that Maduro and his wife Celia are facing.
00:04:03
Speaker 2: And by all accounts, trial of trial not there yet. Excuse me, sorry, misspoke. By all accounts, court did start, this hearing did start right on time. He walks in with his wife again, both wearing prison garb if you will, tan pants, orange shoes he was in had a blue some kind of shirt over another tan shirt, but he was in prison garb. His wife was as well. They were seated at the same table, a couple of seats down from each other. And look, before they even got into the court room. You just mentioned robe. The scene outside and it was almost reminiscent in some degree of what we saw during Diddy. People were out there and it was an atmosphere almost carnival like at times at least for that one today, maybe a different tone, but still people were being loud and being hurt.
00:04:47
Speaker 4: Yes, and there were two defiant sides. There was the one side that had signs that read things like thank you President Donald Trump, Venezuela Freedom, people singing the Venezuelan national anthem, cheering that Madua and his wife finally were apprehended. Then there was another large crowd that felt quite the opposite, supporting Maduro, saying free President Maduro, Free President Maduro and his wife Celia so and the first ladies. So these two factions, more than one hundred folks gathered around and peacefully but definitely letting their feelings be known.
00:05:25
Speaker 2: And someone let their feelings be known in the courtroom as well. There was a bit of a clash between Maduro and I don't want to call it a protest or at least an observer in the courtroom. We will get into that. It was pretty much the last thing that happened at the end of the hearing today. But Robes he and his wife both did enter not guilty, please, But it wasn't that simple.
00:05:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny.
00:05:47
Speaker 4: They obviously they don't know how and wouldn't have had the experience of knowing how the court system works here in this country, so it was interesting. You know, they're learning as they go. They have two very high powered lawyers by their sides, which we'll get into in a second. But the judge starts off just asking them the simple question to identify yourself. Normally a defendant would just give their name. No, that's not what happened in this case. Maduro said, I am the president of Venezuela. I was captured at my home in Caracas, Venezuela. He said this all in Spanish, and the first Lady also made a point to say, I am the first Lady of the Republic of Venezuela. But then when they were asked to give their please, they didn't just go with the not guilty.
00:06:32
Speaker 3: They added a few words.
00:06:33
Speaker 2: You know, and I saw this headline initially, but he said, I am not guilty. I am a decent man. I am still the president of my country. Now for us, in this country, at least Robes, we have seen defendants get immediately lashed by a judge. No, all I need to hear is guilty or not guilty. You don't need to explain anything. I don't this is going to be interesting because of Spanish judge. It's not, as far as I know, a native is not a Spanish speaker. The Maduros have time to say a lot before the judge ever gets to translate it in his ear. This is going to be a thing. He had time now, and he might and all these hearings they might have time to make statements unless the judge clamps down on this. But this is why we got so many words, because the judge couldn't cut.
00:07:25
Speaker 4: Off right because by the time, yeah, it takes a little bit of a delay for the judge to hear what they just said in Spanish for him to say, wait, you can't say that. Otherwise he would have probably interrupted them immediately. Because Celia Flores had the opportunity to say not guilty, I'm completely innocent, so that usually is not allowed as well. So they were both able at least given the translation time that it took to add a few extra things beyond not guilty.
00:07:51
Speaker 2: And they're told usually don't say anything, shut up, don't say anything. But a lot of observers are now looking and say, this is going to be the key issue.
00:08:00
Speaker 1: Forget what the charges are.
00:08:02
Speaker 2: The key issue is going to be whether or not they should be here in the first place, and they were legally plucked, so we're maybe possibly seeing them already with their wheels turned into why they make some of these statements. They were informed, They said they didn't know about a lot of their rights, Like you just said, Robes, they don't know the American court system. But they did get informed they do have the right to a consular visit, and they said they would like to do that. Fine, no bail at this time because they're not seeking it yet. So apparently all this is just happening too fast. Like even the lawyer was like, hey, we got our ducks in a row, and the judge said, yeah, you can do that application later, but right now.
00:08:39
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:08:40
Speaker 4: I thought that was interesting that they didn't even have time to even sit down and have a conversation or at least a strategy and even asking for bail. Highly unlikely that that would have been granted. So maybe they just recognized that off the bat. But it's interesting you do that, Robes, how do you give him bail?
00:08:58
Speaker 1: Where's he gonna go? He's not legally in this country.
00:09:02
Speaker 4: Maybe the only thing I get thinking of is if he had to stay at Is there a Venezuelan embassy here in New York or in DC?
00:09:09
Speaker 3: Obviously there would be. I think, do we have that kind of rapport with that country?
00:09:13
Speaker 4: I don't even know what are Yeah, I wouldn't think that we have envoys or embassies in each other's countries, because that's how adversarial we are. I thought it was interesting too, because the judge let Maduro and his wife know that they are allowed if they can't afford, they do have access to an attorney paid for by the American people. They chose to retain their very high powered, privately secured attorneys that they were able to. I was just fascinate if they were able to secure attorneys.
00:09:44
Speaker 3: I wonder what that.
00:09:44
Speaker 4: Process is like when you are the president, or at least the ousted president of Venezuela, how do you then go about trying to find an American attorney.
00:09:54
Speaker 3: I bet they had him in place, maybe they were anticipating.
00:09:57
Speaker 2: Maybe for years even maybe yes, in touch with and had all kinds of issues and this. You remember that with Diddy, he'd been working with a lawyer for a year, like Agnafillo, Oh who's this guy? He's got to know they've been working together even before the arrest, So I would guess that's the case. Mark Donnelly and Barry Pollack. I didn't know the two names. Mark Donnelly is out of Texas, Barry Pollack out of d C. He's the one that's going to represent the first lady. But Mark Donnelly, when I saw he represented Julian Massage.
00:10:25
Speaker 4: I thought it was Barry Pollock who represented Julius.
00:10:27
Speaker 2: Arry pollit to DC guy. I got him in or out of order of my two people. Yes, Pollock was the DC guy who's representing President correct. Donale is doing the other and Pollock. When you hear that he represented Julian Massage, you know how complicated an international legal.
00:10:42
Speaker 1: Case that was.
00:10:43
Speaker 3: I still don't even really know what happened there.
00:10:45
Speaker 1: Can't keep it. I know Julian Lossange ain't in.
00:10:47
Speaker 3: Jail exactly he did.
00:10:49
Speaker 4: He is the man who at some point was responsible for having him get his freedom back. And so yes, I can understand perhaps why Nicholas Maduro would want someone like that who has that sort of experience from an international complex case.
00:11:05
Speaker 3: This is the guy who has walked that walk before.
00:11:07
Speaker 4: So that's a very solid choice for Maduro to have Barry Pollock mart Donnelly. Don't know a lot about him, just that he's a lawyer from Houston, from the Texas area.
00:11:16
Speaker 3: But yes, don't know much more. But I'm sure we'll find out.
00:11:19
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's good reason why Celia Flores chose him as her attorney.
00:11:24
Speaker 2: All right, Well, folks, stay here when we come back. A move was made elsewhere in Switzerland, of all places, they could have an impact on Madero and his future. Also, we got worried about when the next court date will be. Stay here, all right, folks, We continue here on Amy and TJ. Just a short time ago. Former President. I haven't even gotten this right or not. Is he the former president? Is he the ousted president? Does he have any presidential rights of any kind?
00:12:02
Speaker 1: At this point?
00:12:02
Speaker 4: Who gets to say? I mean, he says in court that he is still the president. I think maybe the best way to put it that I've seen written is ousted president because he has been ousted, and we know that the vice president is now called the acting president. So I don't know that there is a correct term, and it might depend on who you ask.
00:12:22
Speaker 1: That's the thing.
00:12:23
Speaker 2: What if I ask the people of Venezuela right, what are their laws? What is their sovereignty. This is a fascinating legal case, and this is what it's going to boil down too. Before forget the charges. His lawyers are only focused on whether or not he was legally taken, if he should even be here.
00:12:41
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that's the first hurdle, because if they can prove that he shouldn't legally be detained by the United States, that we have no right as a country to hold him, then the charges are moot.
00:12:51
Speaker 3: Who cares?
00:12:52
Speaker 2: But then the flip side of that is that our justice system is only looking at the criminal charges like that, say, my problem to decide whether or not he's legally here and all this. You got somebody before me charge with the crime. I am dealing with the criminal aspect.
00:13:07
Speaker 1: What do you do? Who decides?
00:13:08
Speaker 4: Because normally, internationally, if you're getting a fugitive to face charges here in the United States, it's only through an extradition policy that that country has with our country. He's an agreement made, and there's an agreement and that's how we proceed.
00:13:22
Speaker 3: Clearly that's not the case in this situation.
00:13:24
Speaker 4: So I don't know and Frankly, probably some of the greatest legal minds would argue whether or not we have a right to do this or not? What we have a right, whether or not we can prosecute him here in this country.
00:13:36
Speaker 2: That's the argument, and everybody, everybody wants to go with the Noriego not a Panama example, the same legal question came up and the court said, that's not my problem. How he got here. He's here, He's a criminal. These are the charges. Are they going to look at Madero the same?
00:13:54
Speaker 1: I am.
00:13:55
Speaker 2: This is going to be fascinating. But March seventeenth is his next scheduled court day. Now another one could come. If they do ask for bail, if they want to get him out, I guess something could change. So are we're talking two months away? He's gonna sit in Brooklyn.
00:14:08
Speaker 3: That's what I was just thinking.
00:14:09
Speaker 4: I'm imagining Nicholas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, who are very proud people. You could tell just from the few moments we got to hear from them in court, who are used to a certain way of living, a certain way of being. He even asked the judge for respect at one point about being able to keep his notes and the judge seemed a little taken aback by his tone even that.
00:14:30
Speaker 3: But he has obviously.
00:14:32
Speaker 4: A presidential way about him in certain level of expectations. Can you imagine the two of them, with the way they have lived their lives and how they have been treated and how they are regarded, sitting in that notorious, yeah, notoriously difficult, disgusting, dangerous prison in Brooklyn.
00:14:52
Speaker 3: That seems insane.
00:14:54
Speaker 2: I don't know they, I mean we high profile is one thing, MANZIONI was over there, Maxwell was over there, al Choppol was over there like you, notorious as hell. But still this is a different dude. This is the president of the sitting president. Now, other places the United States don't recognize him as the legitimate leader. Does that matter if we decide no, I'm not gonna accept you as the president.
00:15:23
Speaker 1: I am.
00:15:23
Speaker 2: I'm asking you so many legal questions we don't have the answer to right now. The other thing in court is he was leaving this confrontation, and again it was there was a lot of Spanish, and I'm seeing different places and different interpretations, But there was a guy apparently in the back of the courtroom who stood up at one time at the end as Maduro was leaving and yelled at him, you're going to pay for this, and Madero responded to him with something.
00:15:46
Speaker 3: In Espanol, in Spanish, in.
00:15:48
Speaker 2: Espaniel, and it's being interpreted saying in the name of God, I will be free was the response.
00:15:55
Speaker 1: At least that's one interpretation of how I went down. Wow.
00:15:58
Speaker 4: But will he have the money to be able to pay these high powered lawyers, because we got word today as well that the Swiss government has frozen any assets that Nicholas Maduro and any of the people close to him held in Switzerland and those famous offshore accounts. A total of thirty seven people have now had their assets frozen by the Swiss government. That's very significant in terms of their ability to do anything truly. Obviously, they need to fund their defense, they need to fund perhaps just planning how they're getting out and what will happen next. So if you don't have money, if you don't have access to your funds, that is severely limiting, you know what.
00:16:44
Speaker 2: But anything we learned about dictators, they usually keep a stash somewhere, don't they. You've seing this note here about him saying Happy New Year to the reporters of the courtroom in the world. By all accounts, he sounds crazy, acted residential like, but all he carried himself in such even respectful of the proceedings. To a certain degree, he was almost like a politician.
00:17:07
Speaker 4: Well, yes, he knows obviously at this point, I would think he is aware of how polarizing President Trump is, and perhaps he knows. Hey, you know, he most likely, being the politician that he is, knows how to turn on the charm when he needs to. He knows how to lead and perhaps even how to manipulate, or at least how to carry himself. And he probably doesn't know how to be anything other than presidential and a grand leader who should be maybe feared and respected. That's I'm sure his mode of operation. So why change now? Even if he's in prison clothing and handcuffed and shackled, he's still acting like the president of Venezuela.
00:17:51
Speaker 2: And the president of Venezuela is in a motor key going from Manhattan to Brooklyn to the same prison that held shall On Diddy Combs only a few short months ago. This has been an extraordinary morning here in New York, and it is going to be extraordinary a few weeks, a few months, and who knows this could be years in the making to watch, but the former president of Venezuela made his first quarter appearance today, pled not guilty to a number of charges related to his alleged narco terrorism regime. And with that, folks, we always appreciate you spending some time with us. Now, I'm TJ. Holmes On behalf of my dear Amy Roboch.
00:18:28
Speaker 1: We'll talk to you also
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks.
00:00:11
Speaker 2: It is Monday, January fifth, and that was a hell of a first court appearance from the now austitt former president of Venezuela, Nicholas Maduro and his wife. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. This is just wrapping up as we are coming on here as of this recording. But as of this recording rose, we should mention that Maduro is still in route back to jail. So this is just happening. I don't know what we were expecting, but I wasn't expecting what we got.
00:00:44
Speaker 1: A few fireworks, it was.
00:00:46
Speaker 3: It was interesting, interesting outside of the court. What was going on.
00:00:49
Speaker 4: He was interesting what was happening inside of the court, and just how quickly it's all taken place from the abduction this weekend that we were all shocked by seeing him and his wife standing there before a federal judge in Lower Manhattan.
00:01:07
Speaker 3: It's surreal.
00:01:08
Speaker 1: Remind I keep messing this up. I asked you earlier.
00:01:10
Speaker 2: It was Friday night into Saturday thing. He was taking a Saturday and Friday night. Friday night into Saturday, so early Saturday morning he went to bed Friday night in Caraka, says the President of Venezuela. He is in our neighborhood today in prison garb making court appearances in the same damn courthouse that Didty's trial took place a matter of months ago. This is why it was.
00:01:34
Speaker 4: Weird to be watching the same entrance that we were waiting to see Diddy and Ditty's family walking out of We've walked by that court a million times when that trial was going on, just to see it all now take place again, but in very different circumstances with much larger implications.
00:01:53
Speaker 1: Let's get you caught up here, folks.
00:01:54
Speaker 2: We were all talking about this earlier, but yes, it's been an extraordinary certainly weekend a few days, but also a few hours. Nicholas Maduro and his wife Cecilia were taken from the MDC, the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, the federal prison and brought over to the Federal Courthouse and Lower Manhattan.
00:02:11
Speaker 1: This was all this morning.
00:02:13
Speaker 2: The court appearance was at noon Eastern time, but they started their journey, and as New Yorkers we kind of understand this. We were looking, why are they leaving so early from Brooklyn at seven o'clock in the morning for a noon appearance, and well, if you live in New York, maybe it makes sense.
00:02:26
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's probably what is it a mile at most probably between those two sites. But yes, there was a helicopter and then there was an armored vehicle, all to avoid perhaps yes, some of the traffic issues allah the Brooklyn Bridge, but also safety concerns. There were a lot of people who were waiting and had been lining up outside of the courthouse just to be a part of this. A lot of folks who are from Venezuela, who traveled actually from parts of the US to be just near where this was all taking place. Some for some against United States dead, but a lot of passionate folks outside that courthouse waiting to see what happened inside.
00:03:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was it did happen inside that same courthouse. They just give you a sense of you're not living in this area. This we're at the very tip of Manhattan, Lower Manhattan, the financial district. But you have, yes, a lot of yes, you got Wall Street and you got all those big companies and money down here, but you have the court system down here. And there was just a little area down here again tip of Manhattan, where this cluster of government buildings are. That is where he made his first court appearance with his wife. We did hear ropes officially what the charges are, and he's facing four pretty serious charges here.
00:03:40
Speaker 4: Yes, the first and perhaps most serious the narco terrorism conspiracy charge. Then there's a cocaine importation conspiracy charge, possession of machine guns and destructive devices, and then conspiracy to possess machine guns and destructive devices. So those are the four charges that Maduro and his wife Celia are facing.
00:04:03
Speaker 2: And by all accounts, trial of trial not there yet. Excuse me, sorry, misspoke. By all accounts, court did start, this hearing did start right on time. He walks in with his wife again, both wearing prison garb if you will, tan pants, orange shoes he was in had a blue some kind of shirt over another tan shirt, but he was in prison garb. His wife was as well. They were seated at the same table, a couple of seats down from each other. And look, before they even got into the court room. You just mentioned robe. The scene outside and it was almost reminiscent in some degree of what we saw during Diddy. People were out there and it was an atmosphere almost carnival like at times at least for that one today, maybe a different tone, but still people were being loud and being hurt.
00:04:47
Speaker 4: Yes, and there were two defiant sides. There was the one side that had signs that read things like thank you President Donald Trump, Venezuela Freedom, people singing the Venezuelan national anthem, cheering that Madua and his wife finally were apprehended. Then there was another large crowd that felt quite the opposite, supporting Maduro, saying free President Maduro, Free President Maduro and his wife Celia so and the first ladies. So these two factions, more than one hundred folks gathered around and peacefully but definitely letting their feelings be known.
00:05:25
Speaker 2: And someone let their feelings be known in the courtroom as well. There was a bit of a clash between Maduro and I don't want to call it a protest or at least an observer in the courtroom. We will get into that. It was pretty much the last thing that happened at the end of the hearing today. But Robes he and his wife both did enter not guilty, please, But it wasn't that simple.
00:05:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny.
00:05:47
Speaker 4: They obviously they don't know how and wouldn't have had the experience of knowing how the court system works here in this country, so it was interesting. You know, they're learning as they go. They have two very high powered lawyers by their sides, which we'll get into in a second. But the judge starts off just asking them the simple question to identify yourself. Normally a defendant would just give their name. No, that's not what happened in this case. Maduro said, I am the president of Venezuela. I was captured at my home in Caracas, Venezuela. He said this all in Spanish, and the first Lady also made a point to say, I am the first Lady of the Republic of Venezuela. But then when they were asked to give their please, they didn't just go with the not guilty.
00:06:32
Speaker 3: They added a few words.
00:06:33
Speaker 2: You know, and I saw this headline initially, but he said, I am not guilty. I am a decent man. I am still the president of my country. Now for us, in this country, at least Robes, we have seen defendants get immediately lashed by a judge. No, all I need to hear is guilty or not guilty. You don't need to explain anything. I don't this is going to be interesting because of Spanish judge. It's not, as far as I know, a native is not a Spanish speaker. The Maduros have time to say a lot before the judge ever gets to translate it in his ear. This is going to be a thing. He had time now, and he might and all these hearings they might have time to make statements unless the judge clamps down on this. But this is why we got so many words, because the judge couldn't cut.
00:07:25
Speaker 4: Off right because by the time, yeah, it takes a little bit of a delay for the judge to hear what they just said in Spanish for him to say, wait, you can't say that. Otherwise he would have probably interrupted them immediately. Because Celia Flores had the opportunity to say not guilty, I'm completely innocent, so that usually is not allowed as well. So they were both able at least given the translation time that it took to add a few extra things beyond not guilty.
00:07:51
Speaker 2: And they're told usually don't say anything, shut up, don't say anything. But a lot of observers are now looking and say, this is going to be the key issue.
00:08:00
Speaker 1: Forget what the charges are.
00:08:02
Speaker 2: The key issue is going to be whether or not they should be here in the first place, and they were legally plucked, so we're maybe possibly seeing them already with their wheels turned into why they make some of these statements. They were informed, They said they didn't know about a lot of their rights, Like you just said, Robes, they don't know the American court system. But they did get informed they do have the right to a consular visit, and they said they would like to do that. Fine, no bail at this time because they're not seeking it yet. So apparently all this is just happening too fast. Like even the lawyer was like, hey, we got our ducks in a row, and the judge said, yeah, you can do that application later, but right now.
00:08:39
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:08:40
Speaker 4: I thought that was interesting that they didn't even have time to even sit down and have a conversation or at least a strategy and even asking for bail. Highly unlikely that that would have been granted. So maybe they just recognized that off the bat. But it's interesting you do that, Robes, how do you give him bail?
00:08:58
Speaker 1: Where's he gonna go? He's not legally in this country.
00:09:02
Speaker 4: Maybe the only thing I get thinking of is if he had to stay at Is there a Venezuelan embassy here in New York or in DC?
00:09:09
Speaker 3: Obviously there would be. I think, do we have that kind of rapport with that country?
00:09:13
Speaker 4: I don't even know what are Yeah, I wouldn't think that we have envoys or embassies in each other's countries, because that's how adversarial we are. I thought it was interesting too, because the judge let Maduro and his wife know that they are allowed if they can't afford, they do have access to an attorney paid for by the American people. They chose to retain their very high powered, privately secured attorneys that they were able to. I was just fascinate if they were able to secure attorneys.
00:09:44
Speaker 3: I wonder what that.
00:09:44
Speaker 4: Process is like when you are the president, or at least the ousted president of Venezuela, how do you then go about trying to find an American attorney.
00:09:54
Speaker 3: I bet they had him in place, maybe they were anticipating.
00:09:57
Speaker 2: Maybe for years even maybe yes, in touch with and had all kinds of issues and this. You remember that with Diddy, he'd been working with a lawyer for a year, like Agnafillo, Oh who's this guy? He's got to know they've been working together even before the arrest, So I would guess that's the case. Mark Donnelly and Barry Pollack. I didn't know the two names. Mark Donnelly is out of Texas, Barry Pollack out of d C. He's the one that's going to represent the first lady. But Mark Donnelly, when I saw he represented Julian Massage.
00:10:25
Speaker 4: I thought it was Barry Pollock who represented Julius.
00:10:27
Speaker 2: Arry pollit to DC guy. I got him in or out of order of my two people. Yes, Pollock was the DC guy who's representing President correct. Donale is doing the other and Pollock. When you hear that he represented Julian Massage, you know how complicated an international legal.
00:10:42
Speaker 1: Case that was.
00:10:43
Speaker 3: I still don't even really know what happened there.
00:10:45
Speaker 1: Can't keep it. I know Julian Lossange ain't in.
00:10:47
Speaker 3: Jail exactly he did.
00:10:49
Speaker 4: He is the man who at some point was responsible for having him get his freedom back. And so yes, I can understand perhaps why Nicholas Maduro would want someone like that who has that sort of experience from an international complex case.
00:11:05
Speaker 3: This is the guy who has walked that walk before.
00:11:07
Speaker 4: So that's a very solid choice for Maduro to have Barry Pollock mart Donnelly. Don't know a lot about him, just that he's a lawyer from Houston, from the Texas area.
00:11:16
Speaker 3: But yes, don't know much more. But I'm sure we'll find out.
00:11:19
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's good reason why Celia Flores chose him as her attorney.
00:11:24
Speaker 2: All right, Well, folks, stay here when we come back. A move was made elsewhere in Switzerland, of all places, they could have an impact on Madero and his future. Also, we got worried about when the next court date will be. Stay here, all right, folks, We continue here on Amy and TJ. Just a short time ago. Former President. I haven't even gotten this right or not. Is he the former president? Is he the ousted president? Does he have any presidential rights of any kind?
00:12:02
Speaker 1: At this point?
00:12:02
Speaker 4: Who gets to say? I mean, he says in court that he is still the president. I think maybe the best way to put it that I've seen written is ousted president because he has been ousted, and we know that the vice president is now called the acting president. So I don't know that there is a correct term, and it might depend on who you ask.
00:12:22
Speaker 1: That's the thing.
00:12:23
Speaker 2: What if I ask the people of Venezuela right, what are their laws? What is their sovereignty. This is a fascinating legal case, and this is what it's going to boil down too. Before forget the charges. His lawyers are only focused on whether or not he was legally taken, if he should even be here.
00:12:41
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that's the first hurdle, because if they can prove that he shouldn't legally be detained by the United States, that we have no right as a country to hold him, then the charges are moot.
00:12:51
Speaker 3: Who cares?
00:12:52
Speaker 2: But then the flip side of that is that our justice system is only looking at the criminal charges like that, say, my problem to decide whether or not he's legally here and all this. You got somebody before me charge with the crime. I am dealing with the criminal aspect.
00:13:07
Speaker 1: What do you do? Who decides?
00:13:08
Speaker 4: Because normally, internationally, if you're getting a fugitive to face charges here in the United States, it's only through an extradition policy that that country has with our country. He's an agreement made, and there's an agreement and that's how we proceed.
00:13:22
Speaker 3: Clearly that's not the case in this situation.
00:13:24
Speaker 4: So I don't know and Frankly, probably some of the greatest legal minds would argue whether or not we have a right to do this or not? What we have a right, whether or not we can prosecute him here in this country.
00:13:36
Speaker 2: That's the argument, and everybody, everybody wants to go with the Noriego not a Panama example, the same legal question came up and the court said, that's not my problem. How he got here. He's here, He's a criminal. These are the charges. Are they going to look at Madero the same?
00:13:54
Speaker 1: I am.
00:13:55
Speaker 2: This is going to be fascinating. But March seventeenth is his next scheduled court day. Now another one could come. If they do ask for bail, if they want to get him out, I guess something could change. So are we're talking two months away? He's gonna sit in Brooklyn.
00:14:08
Speaker 3: That's what I was just thinking.
00:14:09
Speaker 4: I'm imagining Nicholas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, who are very proud people. You could tell just from the few moments we got to hear from them in court, who are used to a certain way of living, a certain way of being. He even asked the judge for respect at one point about being able to keep his notes and the judge seemed a little taken aback by his tone even that.
00:14:30
Speaker 3: But he has obviously.
00:14:32
Speaker 4: A presidential way about him in certain level of expectations. Can you imagine the two of them, with the way they have lived their lives and how they have been treated and how they are regarded, sitting in that notorious, yeah, notoriously difficult, disgusting, dangerous prison in Brooklyn.
00:14:52
Speaker 3: That seems insane.
00:14:54
Speaker 2: I don't know they, I mean we high profile is one thing, MANZIONI was over there, Maxwell was over there, al Choppol was over there like you, notorious as hell. But still this is a different dude. This is the president of the sitting president. Now, other places the United States don't recognize him as the legitimate leader. Does that matter if we decide no, I'm not gonna accept you as the president.
00:15:23
Speaker 1: I am.
00:15:23
Speaker 2: I'm asking you so many legal questions we don't have the answer to right now. The other thing in court is he was leaving this confrontation, and again it was there was a lot of Spanish, and I'm seeing different places and different interpretations, But there was a guy apparently in the back of the courtroom who stood up at one time at the end as Maduro was leaving and yelled at him, you're going to pay for this, and Madero responded to him with something.
00:15:46
Speaker 3: In Espanol, in Spanish, in.
00:15:48
Speaker 2: Espaniel, and it's being interpreted saying in the name of God, I will be free was the response.
00:15:55
Speaker 1: At least that's one interpretation of how I went down. Wow.
00:15:58
Speaker 4: But will he have the money to be able to pay these high powered lawyers, because we got word today as well that the Swiss government has frozen any assets that Nicholas Maduro and any of the people close to him held in Switzerland and those famous offshore accounts. A total of thirty seven people have now had their assets frozen by the Swiss government. That's very significant in terms of their ability to do anything truly. Obviously, they need to fund their defense, they need to fund perhaps just planning how they're getting out and what will happen next. So if you don't have money, if you don't have access to your funds, that is severely limiting, you know what.
00:16:44
Speaker 2: But anything we learned about dictators, they usually keep a stash somewhere, don't they. You've seing this note here about him saying Happy New Year to the reporters of the courtroom in the world. By all accounts, he sounds crazy, acted residential like, but all he carried himself in such even respectful of the proceedings. To a certain degree, he was almost like a politician.
00:17:07
Speaker 4: Well, yes, he knows obviously at this point, I would think he is aware of how polarizing President Trump is, and perhaps he knows. Hey, you know, he most likely, being the politician that he is, knows how to turn on the charm when he needs to. He knows how to lead and perhaps even how to manipulate, or at least how to carry himself. And he probably doesn't know how to be anything other than presidential and a grand leader who should be maybe feared and respected. That's I'm sure his mode of operation. So why change now? Even if he's in prison clothing and handcuffed and shackled, he's still acting like the president of Venezuela.
00:17:51
Speaker 2: And the president of Venezuela is in a motor key going from Manhattan to Brooklyn to the same prison that held shall On Diddy Combs only a few short months ago. This has been an extraordinary morning here in New York, and it is going to be extraordinary a few weeks, a few months, and who knows this could be years in the making to watch, but the former president of Venezuela made his first quarter appearance today, pled not guilty to a number of charges related to his alleged narco terrorism regime. And with that, folks, we always appreciate you spending some time with us. Now, I'm TJ. Holmes On behalf of my dear Amy Roboch.
00:18:28
Speaker 1: We'll talk to you also